Saturn Returns with Caggie - 7.9 The Journey Within: Louise O’Neill on Overcoming her ED and Embracing her Saturn Return

Episode Date: June 26, 2023

Louise O’Neill, renowned author and journalist, joins Caggie on this episode to discuss the journey of her Saturn Return. At 27 she was back living with her parents after returning from her job in fashion journalism in New York, her relationship ended, a dwindling bank account and suffering a severe relapse of her eating disorder. It was a “rock bottom” experience in many ways but her career soon took off after writing her first book. Our Saturn Return can be a turbulent and transformative time and Louise speaks openly about how there were times she felt hopeless and lost, even when she was at one of her highest points of success professionally. Yet she holds the belief that often everything falls apart and comes together at the same time.  Louise reflects candidly on her twenty-year battle with an eating disorder which affected every aspect of her life. She shares her recent experience with her Saturn Maturation, a profound time of self-reflection, introspection and re-evaluation. Louise and Caggie discuss toxic relationship patterns, inner critics, energetic shielding, and deepening our intuition. The overwhelming theme of this conversation is that happiness is an inside job.  This episode contains discussions around eating disorders and addiction and therefore might not be suitable for every listener. --- Follow or subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. Today I'm joined by Louise O'Neill, who is a renowned author and journalist. In this episode, we discuss Louise's journey during her Saturn return. At 27, she was living back with her parents after returning from her job in fashion journalism in New York. Her relationship had ended, a dwindling bank account and suffering from a severe relapse in her eating disorder. It was a rock bottom that many of us experienced during our Saturn return. And she very openly discusses her experience during this time.

Our Saturn return can be an incredibly turbulent and also transformative time in our lives. Louise speaks very openly about how there were times where she felt hopeless and lost even when she was at one of her highest points of success professionally because she firmly holds the belief that sometimes everything falls apart and comes together at the same time and I often talk about this that we can have the facade we can be experiencing external success but if something is off internally we won't feel emotionally anchored or grounded Louise very openly reflects on her 20-year battle with an eating disorder which affected every aspect of her life she shares her recent experience from her Saturn maturation which is when we go into our next visit from Saturn at 37 after our Saturn return, which is also a profound time of self-reflection, introspection and re-evaluation.

In this episode, we discuss toxic relationship patterns, our inner critics, energetic shielding and how to deepen our female intuition. A big theme of this conversation is that happiness is ultimately an inside job. Thank you very much Louise for having this very honest and vulnerable conversation with me and to those of you who are listening please take caution if you are affected by subjects of addiction and eating disorders, you might find this episode triggering. Louise, welcome to the Saturn Returns podcast. We're very excited to have you. How are you doing? I'm very well. I just saw that Emma Roberts, did you see this? She was talking about her Saturn Returns. I thought, very on brand.

I know, you know, she's been taught, she did that post and honestly, so many press pieces around it. And I'm just here like, hello, come talk to me but it's good you know because it kind of puts the whole concept on the map because you know I really wanted to speak to you today specifically about your Saturn Returns journey because of course like the overarching theme of the podcast and it often comes back to Saturn Return but we don't we haven't had that many episodes where we really home in on someone's Saturn Return experience and it sounds like it was like a big moment for you right? Yeah and you know what's interesting is that I'm really into like I mean I'm a lapsed Catholic I was very religious as a child. And then I think

sort of in the early 2000s, when a lot of stories were coming out about, you know, the sex abuse scandals and the Magdalene laundries, I left the church and then new age spirituality, I think really when I was around 15 or 16, sort of filled that void. So I've been really interested in, sort of filled that void so I've been really interested in you know like I suppose stuff that you would say is quite woo-woo for like decades now um but I'd never heard of um like when I was going through my session return I hadn't heard of it it would have really helped it definitely helped because I wonder sometimes when people come to the live shows and stuff they'll say I've put a marker in my calendar I know when it's gonna happen should I be afraid I'm like no I was never intending to sort of terrify people or make them sort of satinophobic but it was really intended

to make people feel okay about the whole situation and the things that might come up so would you be able to kind of share with us a little bit about that experience for you? Sure I mean I think it's it's interesting now as I said because at the time I didn't know and now looking back I can see how there was really big life events kind of happening on either side of it. So like when I was 27, I moved, I had been working in New York for a fashion magazine and I moved home to start writing my first, which would become my first book. But like I had, I'd had an eating disorder. I sort of had a relapse while I was working in New York, had come home. My boyfriend had broken up with me. I didn't have any money and I had to move back in with my parents at the age of 27. And then I think when everything kind of falls apart

like that, you think this is a really good opportunity maybe to rebuild my life in the way that I want to. So I started writing. But then on the other side of it, when I was 31, I'd had another relapse. And I think anyone who has struggled with addiction or anyone who has struggled with an eating disorder understands, I suppose, that relapse is really part of the cycle. And I suppose often I think when um particularly the the first time that we go into rehab or the first time that we go into recovery there's this real sense of hope that it'll be like one and done um and then I think that with with every new relapse like a

little bit of hope sort of diminishes um both in yourself and I think in the people around you, because they trust you less. They sort of, I think, have diminished faith each time that you relapse that, you know, that I suppose maybe the full recovery is even possible. Yeah, it's like, it feels like your word means less, you know, and I actually, it's interesting that this is kind of coming up because I had a conversation yesterday. We had Alex Light. I don't know if you know her and she was talking about eating disorders. And then I was on the phone to my mom and she'd invited me to a talk and it was all around like someone who'd recovered from their eating disorder and she told me that a third basically how it apparently goes statistically is like a third of people will recover a third of people will learn to just live with it in a way that's kind of

they can cope and a third of people will actually die and I was so shocked by that and I don't think we recognize or realize what a the high like mortality rate to it and like what a complex thing it is to struggle with so I mean thank you for speaking about that because I think like you say with anything that people struggle with what addiction and stuff and then you do relapse it knocks your it knocks your confidence in yourself and your ability to kind of actually recover but I always like the saying that healing isn't linear you know and like you said it's part of the process sometimes yeah yeah um and I'm sure it is very I mean you know when I talk to my parents and my sister in particular, because I developed an eating disorder when I was 14. And I went into proper recovery when I was 32.

And there were other times where I might have had six months where I felt like, oh, I think this is going to be it or I think I'm going to be OK. And then I would relapse again and then I suppose the whole cycle of like the secrecy and the lying um would start and my my dad always said that was the part that hurt him the most because he said you were such an honest child he said you were too honest he said you know you were you just always said exactly what was on your mind and he said it really makes me so sad that now as an adult that like I just don't know whether to believe you or not and that their instinct I think towards the end was not just to yeah yeah which I think is really sad.

So at 27 that was kind of all going on? Yes I I had started when I talk about the six months of kind of having a period of recovery, I had started seeing a really excellent therapist when I was in New York and she was just amazing. And then I had to come home because my visa expired and, you know, all of these things. And she said to me, she was like was like you you were very early in recovery you need support you need like a team around you you need to find a therapist and a nutritionist when you go home and then I don't know I suppose I came home um and I think I got a bit cocky you know I just thought no I'm okay I'm doing really well you know this will be fine I don't need um I don't really need anyone I don't need that support right now and I relapsed I'd say within six weeks maybe of coming home um yeah I came home at the end of August and I had

relapsed by my parents anniversary which is October. If you don't mind me asking what does what did relapsing look like for you? Well, mine, see, it kind of depended because, I mean, as I said, I've had it for like 17 years. Um, so it sort of went between like severe restriction and then, um, binging and purging. Um, and, and then there was maybe, um, exercise, you know, um, a compulsion at at times but it was really restriction and then binge purge um so that was what it was that was what it was like for me and it just I mean it's so interesting talking about it now because as I said it started when I was 14 my parents um asked me to start seeing a therapist when I was 17 I was hospitalized for three months when I was 21

um and then I went to New York when I was around 25. I had a very bad relapse. I remember when I left, my mother did say, do you think working in a fashion industry, do you think that would, do you think that'll help? And I said, don't worry, it'll be totally fine. And she was right, it did not help. So yeah, so I had a very bad relapse

while I was there of like really, really rest like just eating just very very little and also I think having such a just completely messed up idea around like what a meal would constitute you know talking to my therapist and I would say oh I did really well you know I didn't binge and purge and she would say okay well you know what did you eat and I would sort of run through what I you know what I'd had that day and she was like a grapefruit is is not a meal you know oh is it not so because I because I mean honestly because I'd had it I mean as I said when I went into full recovery I was 32 so I'd had an eating disorder for 17 years and I had like been healthy for 14 years so for the entire for the majority of my life and for the like entirety of my adult life I'd had an eating disorder so I think you know when we talk about recovery you know again what you're saying you know that's like a third of people will recover

a third of people you know will learn how to live with it I thought that maybe I would fit into that category because I just thought at this point like the neural pathways yeah you know around this addiction are so firmly embedded laid down yeah I have no idea how I would ever sort of rewire them um and I did and like I think it's really important to to tell people that because I think like we it's so easy to lose hope and it's so easy to think I've had it for too long and I'm too sick and you know as I said it's too embedded um but full recovery is possible and I remember when I started seeing this new therapist around the time of my Saturn return I was 32 and she asked me to bring my parents to see her and they came in and I mean it was very shaming that get away because I suppose you think that you're hiding so much of

your behavior and then I think to sit with my parents while they spoke you realized that they exactly they knew yeah and it was like it was and they were so kind about it but it was so because you think then you think oh god who else knows yeah so people talking about me yeah yeah are people talking about me behind my back and um and she said, like, she asked me to leave so she could talk to them. And, you know, my dad just said, look, we just want her to live as normal a life as she can at this point, you know? And my therapist said to them, and they told me this afterwards, she said, a full recovery is possible. And she said, I, I believe that Louise will fully recover. And it was something about the certainty with which she said that for my parents. But she reiterated that to me.

And I think having someone who can hold that hope for you when it just that hope seems so impossible and outlandish. It's it's it's a it's a lifeline. A hundred percent. I think, you know, hope is the most important thing in those moments in time. So what was that journey like to healing? I mean, it was long and it was hard. I'll be six years recovered in June. And, you know, it's funny because no matter what happens in my life now, you know, I've been through sort of difficult experiences and I can see sometimes people will worry around me like, oh, will this cause?

And to me, that seems so impossible because my recovery feels so rock solid. But it was challenging. Like I suppose there was two parts to it. The first part to it, which sounds so basic, was I had to refeed myself because there's been really interesting studies done. The Minnesota starvation study, which was done, I think, in the 1940s, where they took this group of conscientious objectors from the war, if they were American, and they were, and they basically restricted their calories. Just these very ordinary men, you know, had no history of mental health issues or eating problems. And like within a few weeks, like the men became really obsessive about their food. They started hoarding their food.

They started like, you know, what we would describe as almost binging on the food if they whenever they got access to it. whenever they got access to it. So like I suppose often when we talk about eating disorders, we're very focused on the psychological aspects of it, which are obviously very important. But like the physical part, like you're malnourished. And when you're malnourished, you can't make good decisions. Your brain isn't functioning properly. So like a big part of it was working with a dietician

and really sticking to my meal plan. And then the other part was just challenging every single eating disorder thought that arose every single one which like there were a lot of them can you give me an example so let's say if I was sitting down to eat and um let's say I was sitting with my sister and a friend of ours and my sister is like, oh, I'm not very hungry. I had a big breakfast or something. And the eating disorder thought would be, you know, why does she get to just eat a salad and you have to eat this? She's going to get thinner than you.

And then everyone's going to think she's more, you know, like, you know, like really, you know, competitive. Is she really not hungry? Yeah. I'm feeling really jealous that other people could just say, I'm not hungry. You're like, well, why can't I say that? Because I have an eating disorder and she doesn't. And then I think it was really sitting with that.

And like the question that I asked myself over and over again is, is this ultimately true and there was always like evidence or there was always you know like I think oh no that can't be true because you know you would always find like some sort of reason or as I said some sort of evidence that would break down um this idea or this thought that you'd had like if you know if I say well if I eat that I'm going to be fat and then I would think oh well my dad's eating it and he's not fat and and and like as obviously time went on I would I sort of I think began to interrogate well there's nothing wrong with being fat but I think in the beginning it was very much trying to like break down as I said the kind of

evidence looking at other people and being like well she's eating a normal meal and she's fine so like I should be safe if I do this as well so I think it was really trying to challenge all of those thoughts yeah because it's recognizing that those thoughts are now completely irrational yeah yeah you know and actually the ones that are governing governing you because it can sort of be as like you think if you eat that thing or if you do you actually look at yourself and you physically you feel like you look different right yeah and that's why it's so complicated because you're having to really dismantle that voice that has been the main voice in your head yeah yeah and I think it is like I mean having gone through this and I mean, you know, I have a couple of close friends who are in recovery as well.

Both are recovering alcoholics. Like it really reinforces, I think, just my belief in the human capacity to change, because I think often we just say, oh, this is just the way I am. we just say, oh, this is just the way I am. And it does take a lot of time and effort and energy to, as I keep saying, like it's rewiring those neural pathways, you know? And I think that when you've done it once, and I have seen, because I have done it, like I do not worry about food now. I don't think about food. I don't think about my weight. I mean I haven't weighed myself in six years and like the freedom from all of that is absolutely extraordinary um and I suppose again it's just trying to like let because I feel like so many women I know are you know what they might not have an eating disorder but they struggle with some kind of you know disordered eating or poor body image um because I know I think we're all under like an immense amount of pressure to sort of um adhere to you know what are conventional

beauty standards and unfortunately thinness is like a real part of that. 100% because I I definitely felt that a big one for me during my Saturn return was actually changing that self-talk. It wasn't as extreme, but I had a quite tortured relationship with my body from probably the age of about 16, 17. And it was like I'd become so disconnected from just trusting what it needed when it needed and it became this like not this sort of feast or famine but it was again it was like people wouldn't have known but the voice in my head was like a kind of constant of well you can't do that until you're yeah sinner yeah oh you can't go there or you can't get a boyfriend or like, no, you're not worthy of that.

You have to be, you know, all of these kind of rules and restrictions that were just in my mind. And it was during my Saturn retirement where I was like, I don't want to live like this. I don't want to live limiting myself or speaking to myself in this way that nobody even knows about because I looked normal.

Yeah. And that's, I think, the sort of the sinister aspect of it is that. Of course, in everyone, it manifests differently and to varying degrees, but it can still, for a lot of people that are just going around their life day to day, you may have no idea that this kind of stuff is going on. And it kind of breaks my heart to hear your experience and to think of anyone else going through it as well. But at the same time, that there's hope in healing and that you can and it's interesting because the terminology you use is very intertwined with addiction and recovery

yeah is there a reason for that because I actually phrased it the other day in a conversation I said you know I do liken it to an. The only more complicated aspect is it's something you have to address every day, three times a day. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I very deliberately use, as you said, like recovery and addiction language around it. And actually, my therapist, who is a specialist in eating disorders, asked me about that once. And I said, well, like there is an incredible, I mean, firstly, all addictions, like we use them to numb pain, um, uh, you know, whether that's like when people are addicted to literal painkillers, but like, it is sometimes the world just feels too much, too cruel, um, too loud, too harsh. And we like, we're not sure of how we can sort of survive in it.

So in order to drown out the noise or in order to numb some of the pain, we use this behavior, whatever that is, whether that is sex or drink or drugs or food. So to me, they all feel very linked. But particularly, I think the bulimia and the binge project, that felt very addictive because it was a real desperation around it and the planning of the, you know, the binges and, you know, having to find time and space to be alone and, you know, resenting anyone who,

you know, intruded. Yeah, exactly. Intruded on that. So like when I talk to people who are drug addicts or alcoholics, like it feels very similar. Very similar. Yeah. That's so fascinating.

Do you, if you don't mind me asking, I tend to ask quite personal questions on this show, but when you kind of went through the recovery process, what did you find was at the core of the behavior you know what was the underlying feeling that or pain that you were trying to escape through this oh I think it's the I mean it's the human condition it's I'm not good enough like I think that is at the core of so much yeah like I really think when you boil down like anything it sort of comes down to this feeling of oh I'm I'm just not good enough um and trying to make yourself good enough in

you know for me it was like you know academic achievement or the way in which I looked um and you know making sure that my body presented a certain way. Um, and yeah, and I think at the core and then, you know, getting into, you know, sort of very messy, romantic, um, entanglements where I just really, like, it felt like very obsessive and where I, um, you know, there was, there was no real promise of commitment or, you know, anything like that. And it was really because I thought, well, I'm not good enough. And this person clearly recognizes that I'm not good enough. And if I can make this person love me, then maybe I can believe I'm worth it.

Like, it's so good. Like, it's so almost cliche to the way you're like, oh God, I'm just like everybody else. No, it's not not though because I don't think everybody else is able to articulate it or recognize that you know and I think you're so right we we do we're also sort of if you think about the media and films growing up it was always the very popular storyline was like the girl that was a bit of a misfit but somehow got you know made herself hot and like got the got the guy you know so every girl is like oh well if a guy's being a bit aloof and treating me not very well but they'll eventually pick me and then I'll sort of transform and it really gets you in into a mess like messy entanglement and allowing yourself to

sort of justify the unjustifiable yes and I think actually it's funny when you were talking because I that all kind of was happening around my like 30 31 um and I think so much of it as well was like you know you know Oprah always says like you know happiness is an inside job and I think that I was really looking for happiness in like my career and in success and in the way I looked and the way men responded to me or you know like you know a relationship or whatever and like what's interesting is like around the time of my Saturn return, I was going through, I suppose, what was, what looked like from the outside, just the most incredible period of my entire life, you know. Success. Yeah.

Like, you know, my second novel had really taken off and it sort of become almost like a cultural sort of, it started like a cultural conversation in Ireland and you know I it was it just yeah it really took off it was sort of in the top 10 for like a year and they made a documentary inspired by it and and I suppose you know as I said to the outside it just looked like everything was going just so perfectly well um and I was falling apart like I just couldn't I mean it's funny even when I when I say it there I can feel like my heart kind of just started to race a little bit quicker just even like just remembering like just it was I think it just felt like I had a target on my back it felt like I was so exposed. I felt really vulnerable. Um, and the, um, and I was eating less and less and less and like the, um, and, and, and the, you know, the bulimia was

coming back in again and it was just such a nightmare. Um, and I think it really, sometimes I think when, when you get everything that you think you want and you stop and you say, that you think you want and you stop and you say oh but I'm still not happy um I still I still feel like I have this hole inside me um and I've tried to fill it with the addiction and now I've tried to fill it with success um and I've tried to fill it with you know with like affection or love or whatever and nothing is like touching the size of this hole. Like it really feels like, I don't know, it just makes you think, well, then I'll never be happy. Do you know, it's just this awful kind of moment of reckoning. And I think it was at that point that I thought,

oh, I have to, I have to recover because I think that I just, it was quite a fatalistic. I thought, well, I'll either recover or I'll die you know at that point it kind of felt like there wasn't going to be anywhere in between. Did you feel like the success was making it worse in a way? Yes I mean there was many different aspects to that I mean part of it was you know being on TV and getting my photo taken, um, and, you know, finding that really triggering and thinking, well, you know, if I, at least if I'm thinner, I don't have to worry. Um, you know, that I'll, I'll, I'll take, you know, that thing of like,

oh, you look however many pounds heavier in a photograph. Whereas, so I thought, and if you, if you have an eating disorder, you think you look a thousand pounds. Exactly. Exactly. And just being really, I don't know, like really kind of confronted by that. if you have an eating disorder you're thinking like a thousand pounds exactly exactly and just being really I don't know like really kind of confronted by that and like whenever I would see a bad photo I wasn't able to sort of say oh it's just a bad photo like it would just make me feel so like the self-loathing was so intense and then the only way that I found to deal with the self-loathing was the eating disorder and then you know because of the nature of that book which was you know dealing with sexual violence I would do events and I would have a lot of people coming up to me

telling me their stories and it was I mean I mean it was really I mean I I feel really honored and like I do but it's a lot it is and I would go back to my, I mean, I feel really honored. I think I do. But it's a lot. It is. And I would go back to my empty hotel room and I remember just feeling like really hollowed out. And again... You don't even know what's your energy and what someone else's at that point.

You feel that like emotion and you're like, I want to cry. Am I crying or am I crying for someone else? Like, what is this? Yeah. And I think, you know, well, firstly, I'm not a trained therapist, but I also think now I'm for someone else like what is this yeah and I think you know well first I'm not a trained therapist but I also think now I'm very good at like energetic shielding and you know like really kind of taking care of my energy in that way it's no joke that stuff like you've

got to have your spiritual hygiene because when you're dealing with that kind of responsibility and those stories yeah it's a lot to take on yeah so you know now I'll go back and I'll have like I'll have like my my like little stick of incense and like a bath and you know like I kind of have like a whole ritual to sort of feel like I'm like cleansing um and but yeah I think you know I suppose the only way in which I had to I think both you know I suppose zone out or even just recover from that kind of um feeling was was like oh the eating disorder like that that's the kind of the comfort that's the thing to go to that's the relief that's the respite and it's I mean it's so you know I always say this with with um addiction or you know you wouldn't do

it unless it had worked in the beginning you know like and it did at one point it did like give some sort of comfort and then it becomes this sort of you know vicious cycle where it's causing the harm it's causing the pain and it's pretending to be the the antidote to it as well. Yeah. But like you say, at some point it did, it was the only thing. And there's a reason, but man, I know that space. I know it well. It's incredibly painful. Yeah.

And we're not taught how to self-soothe. And I think that's such a valuable lesson. And like children should be taught that in school like how to self-soothe without needing you know an external source or substance you know that that you that you have this ability within yourself to care for yourself especially if you're creative sensitive emotional person that feels everything very deeply but doesn't know how to kind of process the emotion then unfortunately we do that's why addiction in varying degrees is so rife because people aren't taught how to regulate their systems and also we get very used to this very cruel internal dialogue that gives us this illusion of control but is actually

so damaging and robs us of so many of so many things of so much joy in life yeah yeah but I think you know like obviously sometimes I look back and I think oh it's sad that I spent you know my all of my teens and all of my 20s struggling with this you know it feels like such a waste of a time where I should have felt free and I should have you know been out having fun and I should have you know just making mistakes and you know I mean having fun and I should have you know just making mistakes and you know I did plenty of that as well but anyway um but I think now I actually feel really grateful for the experience because I have these incredible tools in my life you know um like I always describe it as like the scaffolding that kind of holds my life together so that when things

go wrong and they have, um, I feel so steady because I have, you know, my therapy, I have, you know, yoga, I have meditation. Um, I have, you know, like acupuncture or Reiki or reflexology, like I have all of these kind of things around me and like my journaling and, um, and just, I don't know, you know, like going to, um, swimming in the sea, like I have all of these things that I do. Um, and I do them consistently, um, to the point where they've become so automatic that when something goes wrong, I still do reach for those things, you know, and I think that is what has been just so helpful. And that's such a sort of Saturn Returns thing

because I relate very deeply to all of those things as my infrastructure and the foundations that I live by. So when things do go a little bit off or I'm not feeling very good in my head or I've had an argument with my boyfriend or whatever I know the practices and the tools to come back to whereas in my 20s I'd like I don't know go out and get completely off my head and then next day feel awful and hate myself and then eat loads and loads of food and then feel worse and then do you know what I mean like that I look back I'm like why did no one tell me how these things then you know yeah it's kind of as

you said it just makes everything worse it's that kind of like a vicious cycle it is a vicious cycle but in terms of the relationship piece because I know our audience is always, so it was a very popular subject and something I find quite fascinating because you said you would get in these quite toxic entanglements. Would you be able to kind of share a little bit more about what that was like and where you're at now with it? No, I mean, I think that's definitely part of the past. I mean, I think whenever I would meet someone before I recovered and whenever I would meet someone who was lovely to me, I would think, oh, they're just, this is boring. Like this is very dull. They are far too nice to me. And I also think they're because of that sense of like low self-worth any you know what's that um that was a great

remark it's like I don't want to be part of any club that will have me so there was I think it was almost like well if this guy likes me I mean what's wrong with him yeah what's wrong with you you have no standards clearly um and yes I think I always wanted that like challenge um and someone playing like really hard to get and and it was again like you know someone who clearly didn't care about me um and it was a there was a few of them um that I can I'm thinking maybe three and I was just so determined to like make them absolutely love me and like the more that they were like and then you'd be okay then you'd be fixed and of course the thing is is that if they had I would have lost you like me what's wrong with you so it just went like I would have been like okay next next next

so yeah I think it was really just like learning to I don't know to really sit with it and to think okay um you know what is it I want and also really believing that like I deserved love that I deserved to be treated well that you know that I deserve to be you know treated with respect and I deserve to have my needs met and that was a big thing for me because you know I was just really used to and I think maybe a lot of women are like this were kind of conditioned to take care of um other people's you know other people's worries and other people's concerns I'm a real caretaker like I love taking care of people and so I think that has been sort of a lifelong because you know with all of this um you know we're constantly we're constantly learning like it's just it's you know I don't think that there

is a moment where you think oh I'm done I've got it all sorted you know and when you do watch out yes that's when that's when the next big lesson is coming but also the sort of cruel irony of this whole thing is that often to really know our own worth and to get into a place of deservingness we are confronted by a situation with a situation that makes us feel our worst do you know what I mean it's only in those moments where you just you've hit the rock bottom and you're like no this cannot be it yeah I think people it would just come along and they just see that person they're like yeah I feel deserving and you're wonderful and woohoo yes that would that would be lovely um but I don't I mean it's I don't know I mean I you know this year has been a little bit tumultuous

um and I'm trying to sit with it like I'm trying to just think everything that is happening and everything that is being cleared from my life is for my higher good um and it it almost feels I mean I just turned 38 in February but it almost feels like Saturn return part two um well you'll probably you'll be I've gone through a Saturn maturation so Saturn has squares and oppositions so at 36 37 you do. Okay, this makes sense because I, yeah, like a long-term relationship just broke up. And I keep thinking when we were, you know, getting ready for this interview,

I just thought like Saturn Returns really reminds me of the tower carried in the tarot. And I have this book. I'm actually going to read you a little section from it because I just love this explanation of the the tower because I think people who aren't familiar with the tarot are always really afraid of the death card whereas actually I think the tower card is like the one where I'm like oh no um so it in my book which is uh Karina Collins this Irish woman um and it says

when when the when the tower card appears it it means fate has, or soon will, intervene to force change which you know in your heart is overdue. Ultimately, what transpires sends you in a new direction, hurtling you towards your true destiny. The tower strips away any false sense of security in your home, relationships, work, belief system or sense of self. It may feel like the universe is out to get you as events come with speed, one thing after the other. The problems cannot be dodged but must be faced and dealt with. And at first you may resist but then you become excited as you start to see the potential of what is unfolding before you. Higher powers are protecting you, stretching you and

directing you towards a situation more amazing than you ever could have dreamt of. So everything is falling apart and coming together at the same time. So I was like, that is a very Saturn return. That is so Saturn return. That's what one of the chapters in my book is things fall apart so better things can come together. So when anyone's going through it, I'm always like a little bit excited because I know that something fantastic is around the corner. And I think if we can get more into that state of mind to kind of be open to the possibility of what might be unfolding, it kind of just changes your whole perspective on life, doesn't it? Yeah. And someone said to me recently that life is not happening to you, it's happening for you. And again, I think it's that kind of shift in perspective, because it's very easy to kind of,

you know, get into self-pity and get into sort of victim mode. And it's really trying to think, okay, well, what is this here to teach me? Like, what is it that I have to learn so that I don't repeat the patterns, you know, in my next relationship or in my next career or my next job or, you know, whatever, like the case may be. And I think that when you can try and look at it like that, it feels, as you said, it feels almost, almost exciting, like in the midst of the midst of the chaos it could feel kind of exciting and it's it's hard to do because I also wrote in the book a lot about victim mentality because that was something I would very much fall into and in my 20s it was like everything was happening

to me nothing was happening for me and again that sort of reframe invites more positivity you know it's just that shift that gear shift like okay I don't know why this is happening it's a shit storm right now but I trust you know to be in trust that it's gonna be okay so I mean I'm sorry equally I'm sorry that you're going through that but I'm glad that you've got to a place where you're like inviting it in and excited about, I think when you get excited about the space, you know? Yes, the universe abhors a vacuum. Yeah, and you can feel,

like almost I think you can feel energetically like something that hasn't quite arrived, but its energy is almost there yeah I love that and how how about the sort of career stuff because I'm curious to know you said that when you were like at a rock bottom was when things were actually going very well how have you managed to kind of get through that upper limit that you had to really step into that place and kind of fully embody it and feel deserving of that success? Well, I think for a while after like that, that was 2016. And I think for like a couple of years afterwards, I had to take a step back.

My health had to be my first priority. take a step back like my health had to be my first priority um and I think I made my life smaller in a way to make it more manageable um you know like I kept my kind of the group of people around me very tight and moved back to my hometown um and you know just really I think protected myself as much as I could and now I think over the last, you know, a couple of years, like, you know, particularly with Idol, which was, you know, the, the, my last book, I think that I have really felt much more able to step into my power and to step into my ambition and, you know, to say, you know, I want to be successful. I want this to do well. I want this book to be read and, you know, all of those things. And I think too, and again, I think trying to do well. I want this book to be read and, you know, all of those things.

And I think, too, and again, I think trying to do that while also blocking out all the outside noise, because I think I'm sure I can't even imagine what it's like, you know, for someone like you. But, you know, there were a lot of, you know, like trolls or, you know, like these message boards know all of that kind of thing and I think that once you start getting worried about what you know a huge I don't know how many how many people like what they think of you you won't do anything yeah because you can't hear your own voice you can't hear your own and like that has been like the thing for this year that I've really you know at the start of every year I pick a word that I want to focus on and that's not and at the start of every year, I pick a word that I want to focus on. And at the start of this year, I picked intuition because I felt like I had really like stopped listening to myself and stopped listening to my heart. And, you know, and been very led by what the people around me were thinking, you know, and people who loved me. Like, you know, it wasn't that they had bad intentions. They had really good intentions. it wasn't that they had bad intentions they had really good intentions but like sort of being led by what they thought or their morals or their ideas or their opinions rather than actually sitting and thinking what is right for me what do I need like you know what is the right next step

for me and I think so that has been this year like really trying to I think prioritize that is like you know what does my like what is my intuition telling me what are my instincts saying and I just think we're so we're so trained out of that like in in every aspect of our lives and it's really sad there's this beautiful Glennon Doyle quote which is stop asking people directions for plate to places they've never been and I think it's just like it's so true but to listen to our intuition when you do get out of the habit of it or you disconnect from it it's it can be a tricky journey back so I think that's really powerful and actually just setting a really simple clear intention and like kind of

repeating and reminding yourself of that do you have any practices for sort of deepening that intuitive knowing well actually do you know what um I have started doing is somatic therapy um and that has been really interesting because it's very much how does it feel in your body which again is not we're so tapped out of our bodies most we live just like you know and like a friend of mine who's very intuitive you know she said oh if something doesn't feel right for me I'll get like a clenching in my stomach and I'm like oh my god I wish I had something that was so obvious and clear and like maybe maybe not and so the somatic therapy has been really helpful because it keeps coming back into what does that feel like in your body and sometimes you think you're making it up she's like what color is it and I'm like um gray

whatever like the first thing that comes to my head um but also like and it's such a you know I do find you know with like meditation like I I um learned how to do transcendental meditation a couple of years ago and it's it's such, I really wish that like my answers were, you know, more fun, but like, you know, sit in silence and then the answers will come. But yeah, I do think that the meditation has been interesting, but I'm very hopeful about the somatics. I think there's something about learning when something feels right or doesn't, you know, or feels, you know or feels you know

wrong in your body um and again as as particularly as women I think you know when we're when we're put into situations where we felt uncomfortable or like I think you know our those instincts are there I think it's just learning how to hone them yeah and not squash them yeah and a really simple practice that I think people you know for the audience listening to take away is I love intuitive dance so actually putting on music moving so if you feel that you are very disconnected with your body it's a great way of starting up that dialogue again and communicating and just noticing the sensations and the feeling. And then when you need to make a decision later on, like you're more sort of tapped in, I think. Yeah. Have you ever tried five rhythms?

I haven't, I know about it though, but I have been to and done similar things, but I, I would actually enjoy going to five rhythms. I went into the yoga class the other day and at the end, she made everyone put their hands up like this and just dance for like 10 minutes. And it was so fun. I loved it. So, yeah, I've got to give back rhythm to go. Yeah, there's something about it where, you know, it's both that you're getting in touch with your body and also, I think, learning not to care what other people think and I mean that's listen I'm Irish that is and I'm from a small like that is hard to sort of like I was at I was doing this yoga um this restorative yoga class the other day and there was a woman um next to me and she was a

really heavy breather so every time they said you know breathe out she's like I was lying there going this is not helpful I am thinking homicidal thoughts um and afterwards I was lying there going, this is not helpful. I am thinking homicidal thoughts. And afterwards I was like, what is this woman? And I think it's trying to think, yeah, that's okay. It's okay. We're all allowed to take up space. And I think it's learning to actually do, because again, I suppose what I realized, because I sat with it afterwards and I thought,

oh, what I felt resentful about was that she was prioritizing her own needs and not worrying about whereas I'm always like oh you know I'm sorry now I hope I'm not annoying you or I hope I'm not you know so I think it was just seeing someone who was really like owning that space for herself and I thought okay it's more it's always more about you than it is about the other person, I think. Isn't that the truest thing? Well, Louise, thank you so, so much for joining me on the Saturn Returns podcast. Is there any kind of final words you have for our listeners? Because I feel like so much of this conversation is going to resonate with them. Oh, well, I think I suppose if you are someone or, you know, you know someone who is struggling, you know, with an addiction or with an eating disorder,

I suppose I always come back to full recovery is possible. And that I think, you know, I suppose it's just holding that hope, which can be so difficult when the situation seems hopeless. But I'll hold that hope for you. Thank you so much. Thank you. I absolutely love this conversation with Louise. I love it when people come on that I don't know and they're just willing to go there

because I know how medicinal and powerful it is to the audience that are going through something similar but perhaps haven't taken the steps that are necessary and often these episodes are what encourage people to begin their own path of healing and so I hope if it's resonated with you that you can talk to someone about it or reach out to myself or Louise I know this is a very very sensitive and very complex subject that we discuss and you know it very much impacted me when I was a big theme that I discuss in my book Saturn Returns is you know the relationship I had with my body and that was a big big part of my Saturn Returns journey was addressing that and healing it. Some of the statistics that Louise mentioned in this episode I found particularly

staggering you know the idea that statistically a third of people recover from an eating disorder a third learn to live with it and a third of people die was very very hard to hear and I think it's a subject that it affects a lot of people and so if you are struggling with this I you know my heart goes out to you or if you know someone that is I empathize hugely but I just wanted to say a big thank you to Louise for being so open and discussing this with me. Also this concept of, you know, an eating disorder being an addiction. And I remember someone saying, you know, it's with other addictions, whether it's drugs or alcohol, we can cut it out of our lives. Whereas with food, it's something we have to address and face every day which makes it one of the more complicated of addictions really

also I very much related to her experience with relationships and toxic patterns you know this reprogramming of people that were nice and treated you well as as not exciting and how that's a really big part that we have to kind of mature into and to recognize our own worth and know that we are worthy of being treated incredibly well and that that's something to gravitate towards not against i hope this episode resonated with you and if it did and you would like to share it with someone who you think might find it useful or healing please do and again a big thank you to Louise for coming on Saturn Returns if it has been triggering for you I hope that you can seek some help and support

some professional help because I know these things are very complicated anyway I'm sending lots of love to all of you and thank you so much for your continued support of Saturn Returns it really helps us get discovered by more like-minded people if you could write us a review on Apple Podcasts and don't forget to subscribe to the solo series if you guys want more from me and Saturn Returns. Thank you so much for listening and as always remember, you are not alone. Goodbye.