Saturn Returns with Caggie - 8.11 Business, Friendship and Healthy Living with Steph Claire Smith

Episode Date: November 27, 2023

Today I am delighted to be joined by Steph Claire Smith. Steph is an Australian model, entrepreneur and was one of the original Aussie influencers who I have followed from the very beginning. She has gained popularity through her lifestyle, fitness and wellness content. Steph’s influence extends far beyond the world of modelling, as she uses her platform to discuss issues surrounding mental health, self-care, and how to make healthy lifestyle choices. Steph first met her best friend, Laura Henshaw, when she was just nineteen before moving to New York where she began modelling and documenting her life on social media. It was when Steph came back to her hometown of Melbourne that she reconnected with Laura and their journey into entrepreneurship truly began. Steph reflects on that period of navigating her way through her young adult life, away from her family and friends. She shares the obstacles she encountered during her modelling career and the impact this had on her own self esteem. Steph was simultaneously building an online career and modelling portfolio which placed her under the spotlight of intense scrutiny, judgement and pressures from external influences. We discuss how Steph managed to overcome that self-doubt and stop herself from falling into ‘the comparison trap’. We also discuss the ‘Creator Economy’ and how she was able to organically build her brand alongside her best friend and business partner to continue to feed their new and existing online community. We journey through the lessons she learnt building her first business and how she’s managed to make a success out of her relationship with Laura and her love of health and fitness. Whilst our Saturn Return can be an explosive and uncomfortable period, Saturn can also help us to solidify the things that have been in motion in our lives for a while. At 29, Steph is now a Mother to a highly successful business and to Harvey, her first Son, who she shares with her husband. We discuss the gender roles in their household and how they came to the decision that her husband would be a stay-at-home father.  Redeem a one-month free subscription to Kic, live until the end of the year! Sign up via the Kic website: https://kicapp.com/uk/, select the monthly subscription and enter promocode SATURNRETURNS to redeem a free month of Kic. You can then download the app and log in --- Follow or subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. We did not start the business to make money. We started it because we didn't want anyone to go through what we did or we wanted to help people through that phase. We wanted to be there for them. Sure, there's really tough times and being able to have your friend, a very close friend there to work through it with you,

I wouldn't be where I am without Laura. And there's so many times that I think like some of the things, the decisions we've made or the directions we've gone that it just wouldn't have been the same without each of us there. In today's episode of Saturn Returns, I'm joined by the wonderful Steph Clare-Smith who you may be familiar with she is the original Aussie influencer she was a very successful model still is and now she is an entrepreneur and has her own business with her best friend called Laura and that is called Kik so you guys should definitely check it out and I was so thrilled

to have Steph on the show because I fangirled a little bit because I did follow her from the beginning of her journey. For those that know me or listen to the show, you know, I'm obsessed with Australia. And so of course, I was following Steph's journey from down under, that's where she's from. And so it was great to get to have this conversation with her and discuss what life has been like over the last couple of years, navigating, moving through the modeling industry, some of the challenges with that, and then building this platform and this community and turning it into a really successful business. I always love to hear about female founders and the sort of challenges they've faced and the obstacles that they've overcome and also what I found really interesting about her story was navigating managing motherhood with this sort of really crucial stages of building her business and obviously she came over to London to record this so she had to be away from her family which you know she discussed was slightly

challenging but I felt very inspired by it by both of the girls by her and Laura who's her best friend that she runs kick with so I hope this inspires you guys to start your own thing and you find this conversation useful welcome to the Saturn Returns podcast it's such a pleasure to have you. Thank you. You've come, well you're over from Australia. I've followed your journey for a while, so welcome to London. But for our audience that doesn't know, would you be able to kind of start us off with where this whole journey began for you and a bit about yourself?

Yeah, of course. So my name's Steph. I grew up in Melbourne, Australia. Bit of background on my upbringing. Very sporty, very confident, loud child. Both my parents are originally from the UK, so I've come here quite a bit. Very lucky to have. And it always feels like home when I come and visit because I've got family around, so it's nice to be here. I've got family around, so it's nice to be here. And then when school was finishing up, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I was never a super academic kid, so, you know, striving for a high score and then trying to get into a uni, that just wasn't on my mind. But I didn't quite know what my future was going to hold. But one thing that I did have a lot of interest in was modelling. And I'd always been, been like into drama and dancing and singing and being in front of a camera very confident kid and so when I realised I wasn't a

good dancer or a good singer or I didn't really ever try acting I was like well maybe I'll try modelling and my kind of deal with my parents was you know when I finished up school I'll give it a crack and I'll have another job on the side and I'll talk to my friends who have started all different uni degrees and stuff like that and just work out what sounds good or what I might be interested in and originally I thought maybe it would be primary school teaching I love kids maybe a PE teacher I loved sport but modeling took off for me and it was around that time as well which was was 2011. I think by the end of 2012, I think I had about 150,000 followers on Instagram. Which at the time, like you were one of the first.

And I think I actually have followed your journey from the very beginning because I remember like seeing that kind of space and like the wellness. But anyway, carry on. Yeah, you were one of the first in that space so congratulations on that thanks I mean it's just it's really just timing and it's it's quite wild because it's so different now like growing a profile in a community now is very different to how it was back then did it just happen very naturally yeah for sure I was really excited to be sharing my life that I found very exciting and at the at

first it was just my friends and family to keep up with because modeling was going well and I was having these amazing opportunities to go overseas and travel and everything and I was like 18 19 at the time um and then I think when I moved to New York and LA for about a year I was 20 and that's when my kind of global following started to grow a lot as well and that was very weird for me being in New York and I remember one day in particularly I had five different people come up to me within one day and some of them were locals some of them were from like South Africa and and England and everything just in New York on a holiday and I just was like this is wild this is weird I didn't this is just so odd. But the way it

happened was I was sharing a lot of my, um, my life and my fitness activity and a lot of big fitness accounts started to repost a lot of my content. And so that's how the following started. Um, and it was around the same time in 2019 when I met my now best friend and business partner, Laura, we were both modeling at the time and um just started one of those friendships where you feel like you've known the person your whole life and bonded on so many things and was this what were you living this was in Melbourne so Melbourne but then after we met shortly after we met we both did kind of stints overseas um so then I lived in New York and we stayed in touch and then came back home to Melbourne and we just had so much

that we related to with our experiences and in the modeling in the modeling industry particularly and also at that point we'd both built an online community and with that comes like a lot of external pressures and judgment everything um what was some of that like at that time because obviously you were incredibly young yes you don't really know who you are as a person not at all and then suddenly you have this global audience of people was there what kind of was some of the struggles that you experienced at that time I think because for me at the time my biggest goal was to succeed as a model the hardest thing that I struggled with at the time was when people would judge me on my appearance or like pull me down or you know start threads saying like

that there was no way I was going to be successful because I was I don't know too big or didn't look like a model all these different things which now I look back and I couldn't care less about but at the time it really bothered me because I was like this is what I want to do and um I was very very insecure I suppose in that way and when I was living in New York in particularly the the judgment and that kind of pressure didn't just come from my online community or not my community they were always lovely the um the ones that don't actually follow um was from my agency in New York so they put a lot of pressure on me to be smaller than I was I was 10 kilos lighter than I am today and it wasn't small enough for them and again I was just in this phase of my life where I really wanted to make it work and I wanted to go back home with

this like success story that I'd like made it overseas um and so I was just going to do whatever they said to try that and I became obsessed with everything that entered my mouth like food wise just restricted myself from so many foods that I'd grown up loving and never had a problem with I started to like make up intolerances in my head just so that I could like have an excuse to avoid certain things and that restriction only led me to overeat a lot of the stuff that I would then allow myself to have. And of course I would end up binge eating. And then that pattern would result in me feeling absolutely full and sick at the end of the day. And a lot, a lot of the time I would

either just sit in that feeling, um, and just feel, I mean, near on depressed, like crying myself to sleep every night. And I was living alone in a studio apartment in New York, away from my friends and family. It's very isolating. And then some nights it would even result in making myself sick. And it took me a while to realize how wrong that pattern was. But once I did and I kind of admitted to myself that I wasn't going to be able to sustain this and I was losing who I was, like I was losing that confidence and that energy and that bubbliness. I was becoming more and more insecure the skinnier I was getting.

And it took coming home, surrounding myself with friends and family and talking about it, being open about it. And I ended up, I bonded with a personal trainer actually because I feel like the first person I opened up to wasn't a close friend or a family member. It was this PT who I knew had helped other girls through similar issues. And I think it was just because I thought if I told my mom or if I told a friend, they just wouldn't get it or they couldn't relate to me.

And they'd obviously always be their support, but they might not necessarily know what to say or do um so it's quite interesting from that period living in New York to then going home how long was that I was overseas for about 10 months okay um it was the best part of a year that you were going through that on your own yes yeah and I like to say that I mean I wish I could say that as soon as I came home it all got better but those habits and those thoughts and those like feelings of guilt around food or missing a day of exercise or whatever um or the obsession of like trying to look a certain way that took years to kind of train my mind away from that they do linger and um and it's not to say that they don't

ever pop back up nowadays even but I've got to a point now where I have such a beautiful relationship with my body that my why for you know eating the way I do or moving my body the way I do is not anymore tied to my weight or a certain measurement or anything like that. It's because I know it brings me energy and joy and I can keep up with my son that I have to run off to now um so I think yeah reframing that has helped immensely so when those insecurities do come up they're quicker to squash you know how to manage them yeah when you got back to Australia then was that a difficult thing did you go back feeling like like what was that process like because I know when you have lived abroad and like you say you put all this pressure on yourself that really is just

coming from you no one else like minds as much or they just want you to be happy so what was that like transitioning back home it was hard because I didn't have like the story that I wanted to share when I got back home like I would have people asking me who I worked for when I was over there or what jobs I did and I was like I didn't really work that much like I was very very fortunate within that year I had a few clients back at home that I was in contracts with so I was still having some sort of work even though I wasn't you know shooting every week or anything like that so yeah it was a very quiet I think year of actual paid work um outside of those contracts so it was really that was really hard for me because I kind of had to admit to some people that I didn't really get much work like there was a couple of jobs and they were great and I met some

great people but yeah it was that pressure from the agency trying I think they were just trying to make me someone that I wasn't and it's funny because when I reflect back in that time I think that I was really really lost and I wasn't myself but then it wasn't that long ago I was searching back through some of those emails just to I don't know why but revisit how I was feeling at that time and I looked at some of the conversations I was having between myself and that agency and I realized there was a point in my trip which was right towards the end that it was like almost like I just had had had enough and I'd like realized that they just weren't wanting me a part of their book basically and so I started to speak back to them a little bit and I was like I understand that I might not be the right measurements at this point

for you to like represent me or whatever but like is there any hair clients or like I don't know, freaking hand model, I'm happy to do like anything or like surely there's someone that's okay with my size. Like I was very commercial but it was almost like they were wanting me to fit into this runway figure which I just wasn't, I wasn't even interested in anyway. But yeah, so I started to push back which they didn't really respond well to but my agent at home helped me get out of that

contract and I ended up just getting to a point I did re-sign with a new agency who were a lot more welcoming and kind of like they were pretty honest at the upfront like they said look we don't want you to change but if we get 10 clients coming back to us and it's like a repeat pattern of like one particular thing then we'll bring it up with you but we think you're great like so I felt more comfortable signing with them but I was only really there for another month and then I was ready to go home do you feel like looking back because you mentioned that you know you went through those emails and I had a similar experience recently and I feel that we all are quite guilty of looking through this lens of thinking that we didn't know anything

or that we weren't trying hard enough and like I'm so harsh on the younger versions of myself and I you know can relate to a lot of what you're talking about when I moved to LA and had kind of similar experiences and felt that pressure and look back so harshly on myself and the way I talk about myself at that time is really unfair and I found some stuff recently I was like maybe I did know yeah but it's just it's the reality is it's just tough navigating the world when you're a young adult and you're trying to figure out who you are and get people to take you seriously and find the places that you fit without having to mold yourself in any kind of way so I can very much relate to that and then when you were back home

because you've built a fantastic business so I really want to kind of get into like yeah where that all began to take off because at this moment in time you had the online presence developing yet you were having this experience in New York and there was this sort of like uh I don't want to say conflict but now those things would be working so well together and they do for you but at the time it sounds like there was they hadn't quite met each other yeah so when I got home uh Laura and I reconnected and it was at the time we were both getting work with other brands online and repeat work so we we understood that our community was responding really well to who we were working with and that was a bit of an eye-opener for the both

of us because we realized we've got a really big responsibility here with this this following that we've grown and that sounds silly to think back to because I'm like how would you have not thought like this is a really big responsibility but I think in the early days yeah you didn't really think about it it's like just a number it was so new as well yeah yeah and then I think when we realized that we were like well hang on we connected with this community we realized that when we started to open up about some of these struggles that we had that we were absolutely not alone we both also related to the fact that we grew up in households that didn't have that pressure and we had a really beautiful relationship with food and exercise growing up and yet we still you know fell down that path whereas like it's happening earlier

and earlier and younger and younger so like what can we do to put something out there because at the time what was out there when it came to like health and fitness and wellness in 2015, it was very much either, you know, your low-calorie boiled chicken and broccoli fitness, you know, high-protein stuff, or it was wellness was very unaccessible. Like you had to spend $200 at a health food store to make one brownie and it tasted like dirt, I'll be true. It was very like organic organic organic or just fitness it was kind of nothing that reminded us of our childhood that was just making food just like normal food with normal ingredients going to

the supermarket somewhere accessible not having to spend a lot of money but still classifying that as health we felt like there was a bit of gap so we created an e-book which at the time were really big and new and exciting um and we googled how to do it because we had no idea um we ended up getting a friend of mine who had just started his uni degree in design to mock it up for us a few brands that we were already working with we got them to jump on board um like and collaborate so they were ingredients within our methods and everything like that to basically start it off so they paid for it. It's very entrepreneurial. Still like at such a young age you know. Yeah it's fun it is it's fun and to your point earlier I think often we do think back to that point and we laugh at some of the decisions we made or

anything like that but we really did we actually had a bit more of an idea than we give ourselves credit for um so we started with that yeah yeah and it was amazing i mean we didn't put it out there to to start this like full business we never would have imagined that it has grown to what it is but what we saw very quickly was the response from our community was amazing and they just wanted more and um and we also just felt hungry to help them in other ways and just wanted to yeah do more with it so from there um after the ebook we had a website that was a kind of like a blog but a subscription blog which was about seven dollars a month and there was one workout and three recipes per month and the workouts would be made we had a lot of friends in the industry so maybe a pilates

trainer or a strength trainer and they'd put together this workout for us and we'd film each little clip and upload it to youtube and link it through this blog and it was yeah very um scrappy but awesome an awesome start and people subscribed and that community continued to grow and then we were approached by another company and we started a program which was a web platform that you could use on your phone and that was like workouts everyday recipes meditations and we worked with them but we were kind of more of the talent in that process and I think through that process we both realized that this was something that we really really wanted to put all our eggs in because at the time I was still modeling quite a bit um and we both had a lot of relationships

with other brands and stuff and we kind of realized that we were very very in touch with this community and I just wanted to do more and we didn't want to just be the talent we wanted to yeah you know be a part of the marketing plan or like know what content we're going to put in or you know we wanted to build an app, which at the time was, we couldn't do that through that company. Well, when you build a community like that, it's so personal.

It is, yeah. So you can't, and you said that you never knew that it was going to become what it has become. But I think the best stories and the most successful businesses, they don't start out like, oh, I'm going to build this global empire it starts from a place of authenticity because you really care

about your community and want to connect with them and the sort of mission statement which you know you've defined when did you decide that because shifting obviously you were doing so well in modeling then kind of being like okay we're actually going to put all our eggs in this basket yeah what was that like because obviously for both of you to make that decision is huge and it is regardless of the community community like starting a business is terrifying yeah and I think a lot of people especially people listening to this might be wanting to do something like that but just a little bit scared to take that step so what was that sort of thing yeah for sure I mean we balanced we we both still balanced a bit of modeling on the outside for the first part of it because

we didn't take any money out of the business for the first part of it we just would put everything back in to continue to grow it so that's the really scary thing about starting a business is for a lot of people they've got to make that decision and everyone's position is gonna be very, very different. With modeling, you're really fortunate to get paid quite a lot of money for one day of work. And you've got a lot of free time around there. Exactly, so it was actually really good

to manage both in the beginning. And it was only really when the team started to grow and yeah, the workload was a lot more that we then had to find a balance that worked we still kept doing it and I mean we still have partnerships but more often now it's partnerships that make sense for the brand as well and it's been a really great way to expand our community because we work with other brands that have really like-minded you know people within their community and then they want to know about kick and maybe our community want to know about what

they have to offer. So it's still been really important to us to continue to kind of nurture a lot of those relationships outside of Kik within our own personal brands. But yeah, it's just, it was more of like, for me personally, I loved modeling. I mean, I definitely had a love-hate relationship with it because it was one of the lowest points of my life was to do with the modeling industry but I also have a lot of risk like a respect for my journey I think like I wouldn't be where I am today without going through that I wouldn't have the connections I wouldn't have the world experiences that I had without it I think I grew up a lot by being in the industry so I still have this soft spot for it I think however it wasn't as rewarding as it was in the beginning and the work that we were doing with kick you know actually

changing people's lives and changing the relationship they have with with health and themselves more importantly that was more rewarding than anything like modeling ever gave me so it was connecting with that community that really just kind of put the fire in our bellies to go all in. If there was one thing that you feel your community, like a through line of what they have messaged you about or a struggle that they experienced,

what would you say that one thing would be? Probably that it's for the first time they've been able to find something that's helped them live a healthy life that they can actually sustain so they might have tried challenges before they might have tried other programs they might have tried you know different trends and diet trends and stuff but they've never felt happy doing it they've never been able to sustain it because it was too restrictive and kick has been this community that they've felt supported and encouraged to define it for themselves you know

some people in the community work out in their bedroom in their pajamas three days a week and cook some of the recipes with their family throughout the week and that makes them feel really really good and that's how they've defined healthy for them others you know are following a run program and then and then partnering it with with the pilates offering that we have and so then they're working out five six days a week and that really works for them in their lifestyle and we're kind of just there with the tools to help educate them but also just inspire them to find what works for them and not worry too much about what anyone else is doing because the comparison trap like I mean in life in general is is horrible and we all fall into it but when it comes to the fitness industry and diet industry and all that sort of stuff comparison trap is is

difficult because you think that you could look at someone follow the same diet as them do the same exercise routine and then you'll look like them but of course you won't so that's why i find sometimes online it can be dangerous with these what i eat in a day like my workout routine because yeah how accurate it is who knows but also it's not necessarily gonna work for everybody no and and that's definitely something that we've grown through as well like we we used to i mean we've done media for a long long time but we used to answer those things in in articles you know three four five years ago but then it got to a point where 100 we realized that exact same thing that this was a my weeks are different all the time or my days are different all the time but b it's we

didn't really like the feeling of what we were putting out there and so even in our in our um app at the moment we've got a meal guide that has been written by our dietitian um and it's more it's it's a guide it's not a plan it's not you know it's really just like if someone has absolutely no idea how to where to even begin with what's a good balanced breakfast lunch and dinner there's a guide there but in no way is it you know this is what you follow and you'll get x result in terms of building a business the creator economy is something that's becoming more popular and people are kind of like oh actually i have this audience i can create something direct to the customer to the audience moving away from working with brands and like getting that kind of fulfillment but what were some of the obstacles

you faced as you went from that transition because obviously it's very different when you're putting up stuff sharing things about your life but there's no pressure to monetize that or anything and you're working with brands so that's supporting you in that way but then sounds like you kind of moved more away from that and to creating your own business what were some of the yeah the obstacles in that transition I think in my own mind just it sounds weird but trying to be aware of like the best way to do this organically and I mean it ended up being easier with less thought to it because we truly live and breathe the brand like yeah I use the app every day whether it's for a workout meditation or a recipe like I am in there every day so it became

very easy to want to talk about it because I used it but at the start I think I was scared that it was like are people gonna be like oh she's just you know selling her own product to me and everything like that it's difficult it is make that shift yeah when you've never done it before yeah yeah but um they responded well. And I think you can tell. I think you can tell when someone is trying to promote or sell you something that they wouldn't use. Yeah.

You know, I think people are starting to get it and being a bit smarter with it. And I mean, we were doing that as well before we even had Kik with the brands that we were working with. It was really only that first year of having a following that I'd be like oh my god I got a free thing like look at this it's so great and like sell it absolutely anything then you realize the responsibility that you had so even with the brands that we're working with it was like do we genuinely love this brand does it do good like someone is gonna buy this are you comfortable with that you know feeling that responsibility the influence that we have you had to be aware of that and with kick we know it does good we know it does amazing things for

people so we feel incredibly comfortable talking about it but yeah it is it is a it's a funny shift and working with one of your best friends what's that been like because business can be quite lonely so I'm sure it's really nice to have someone to go through all those experiences with oh yeah absolutely and it's funny because when we when we first went into business together a lot of people were like you shouldn't go into business with your best friend or a loved one you just shouldn't do it and I understand why but I think because Laura and I was so connected with the mission and like why and what we were doing and that was like the biggest thing that why and what we were doing and that was

like the biggest thing that mattered for us we did not start the business to make money or anything like that we started because we didn't want anyone to go through what we did or we wanted to help people through that phase we wanted to be there for them and I think because that's been our main driver and still is to this day sure there's some difficult decisions we have to make in the business but it all comes back to that and because we we're aligned on that, it's worked. And keeping like really open communication as well the entire time has been really important. And I think where the benefit is, is absolutely there's really tough times

and being able to have your friend, a very close friend there to work through it with you. You know, there's always one of us that is probably struggling a little bit more than the other and you just kind of pull the other person exactly um and it's been it's been amazing I absolutely couldn't be like it wouldn't exist where it is without that friendship as well and I just I wouldn't be where I am without Laura and there's so many times that I think like some of the things the decisions we've made or the directions we've gone that it just wouldn't have been the same without each of us there.

It's hard to describe, but it's worked for us. Like it is something that can work. I think if you go into business, though, and you have different ideas of why, like if one of you maybe is going in for success and money and all that, and the other is a little bit more attached to the emotion. And then I can see definitely that there would be hard roads that you would have huge disagreements but we haven't had that because I guess that's a big part but then also balancing not just the responsibilities but you need a different set of skills yeah that flatter each other especially at the beginning when you are wearing every hat yeah you know when you start up a business you are the CEO

and like the coffee maker and yeah and like yeah doing all the things so what was that like and then what was the process like of growing and scaling when you didn't you were a creator you didn't really have that education I presume oh my god absolutely not I didn't I didn't study business or anything like that um because I think people find that daunting especially women because we're not as good as talking about it or networking historically so then I think people feel oh well I didn't study that so I couldn't possibly yeah oh and I will admit um the first to admit that I still have those moments of self-doubt to this day because I I think when I was growing up I was always told that I was you know a sporty creative I wasn't academic I was dumb you know teachers would tell me I was

going nowhere and if I even mentioned the word modeling people like well she's gonna literally have no future um so I think I just had this like ceiling put on me to never assume that I was an intelligent person um and I never would have imagined myself even working in an office let alone having a team so definitely those those doubts and insecurities still come up to this day but I think it's also really special the way that we've been able to complement each other in in our skill sets because I would say Laurie is more academic she's incredibly intelligent and when we're going to think about like organizational skills and and all of that even she studied law

so her background in that is just amazing and the work ethic that comes from that is amazing and so often I think this is another thing that comes up a lot when you work with your best friend is people ask you about comparison between the two of you I think particularly when it's like two women because unfortunately that's something that we do but I think because we have so much respect and love for each other and we've now come to a place where we have clearly identified those different strengths that we see the value in the both of us and we know it wouldn't work if we both had the same set of strengths like it would that would be a lot more challenging I think being able to work out how to balance this and who's kind of responsible for what if you were both really good at the exact same things so it's worked out for our benefit I think and again I think it's just about anytime I'm feeling

that doubt she's my biggest cheerleader and vice versa yeah and Laura and I we never pretend we're the smartest person in the room like we're the first to admit that we're not and we love surrounding ourselves with people that do have more experience or know more and constantly reach out to like new mentors or advisors in different ways we find that quite inspiring and for the both of us it's just we just know that we're both on this journey together and we're not we're not going to get everything right but what we've learned is that as long as we can pick ourselves back up and work through it then we've learned something yeah and that's only going to benefit us i've actually met a lot of people that are working together recently that are either

husband and wife boyfriend and girlfriend uh family members i haven't met best friends that are working together so this is the first but it's quite interesting because there's obviously a through line because there's that level of trust and respect and I guess you've got to have boundaries but fundamentally like the friendship comes first and you can support each other in a way that perhaps otherwise you wouldn't be able to but you mentioned a second ago about you know having those doubts and having you know when you were younger that you felt like you were limited in some way because of what people might have said at school what do you do to manage that doubt because I think you know we all experience it in varying degrees, but sometimes it can be so powerful that it stops us from doing the thing.

So how do you combat that? For me, it's just focusing on the things that I have done well, or complimenting the things that I do know I'm good at, or honestly jumping in the community and just reading different success stories and stuff from the product we've created.'s the biggest confidence booster best affirmation yeah the best so yeah I think often testimonials from customers is the the best way to go um but

yeah for me it's just like I have to almost smack myself out of it it's like sure you're not that good at these things is it something that you really truly want to invest a lot of time in and get better and get better at or in your role is it actually that necessary to be the best at that can you give us an example of what that thing might be okay so for one I have never been a numbers person like it's like gibberish to me no no matter how many times I've explained it it's still like gibberish to me and I there's certain numbers that I have to be across and that I that I do love and like to have that knowledge of, particularly because I work a lot on the actual product.

So learning a lot about, you know, usage in the app and like what people are loving and liking, it obviously lets us know like what features we should do or what content we should release and what we shouldn't. So that's great. But yeah, when it comes to like say our finances and stuff like that I'm I'm in the meetings and I've got my head across it enough but it is not something that even when I was younger I was just I could have had it I had a tutor actually it still didn't

help me it's just something that does not compute does not stay in my brain um and so that's something that I'm across but I have I'm so lucky that I have my best friend who is more across it um working so close with our CFO and there's just yeah there's this trust there I'm across it but I don't have to understand it the way that she does and she doesn't put that pressure on me either to understand it the way she does I mean she explains things to me and makes it easier for me to understand which I'm so grateful for but yeah it's not like she's turned around and be like you need to be able to do this which I think again is something that a lot of entrepreneurs or people that want to start a business fall into is thinking that they have to learn or understand all these things or they will fail and I think the failing comes from trying

to be the best at everything. I think you need to have it definitely, especially when you have to wear a lot of different hats, you have to have an understanding of everything. And it's good to learn at the beginning. Because I think often with, you know, modeling industry or those creative ones, especially they are orchestrated to a degree in a way

where the talent doesn't know what's going on and it often gets them in a lot of trouble down the line because they don't understand their own finances or the way the business runs and so they can't really expand beyond that and it kind of limits them but at the same time it's about learning enough so you know what's going on but then knowing when to delegate yes yeah exactly and what's that been like for you too as business partners as you grow as a company without necessarily having because I doubt I mean you mentioned mentors but I doubt you have many people that have done this path before because it's such a new one yeah it's it is it's really interesting because when you try and find someone

with you know over 10 years experience they've got the I suppose lived experience in in the business world and they can definitely give us some incredible advice but when it comes to our journey and our particular product and what we're doing you you are right it is I suppose newer than that and um so it's it's been an interesting balance but it's not tried and tested no no and I think they're all very honest with that as well like they'll they'll give us advice on what they can but then they'll be like also you've got to just learn by giving it a crack and not being scared to fail and um I think just being in touch with our community has helped us

made some of the biggest decisions ever because we are so in tune with what they want from us and what direction we're going because at the end of the day it's all for them and if we don't have them at the front of our minds um and not just them but also the wider community of who we'd love to you know reach then who are we doing it for what do you feel that you were naive about well i think just neither of us have tech backgrounds and when we are doing a tech company yeah we launched an app and like had a tech company so it's just like I don't think that really that didn't really die there which can be one of the advantages of when things don't you're like yeah but that's your computer that i wouldn't have started no but it is really

interesting too because i think in ways that has actually gone in our favor we've worked with some you know we've got some incredible people in our product team at the moment and they've worked with founders of tech businesses who have you know incredibly strong tech backgrounds and they find it really hard to let go of you know the reins or control of a lot of the product which they have to which they have to if you want to expand and grow and for us it's like because communities first we uh are there to reflect what we believe is the right direction and strategize with the team but we're not pretending for a second that we know more about you know what a

feature should be like or you know anything to do with the product we're not there for a second trying to be too controlling on that or the processes that need to be in place to make that work we can challenge them but at the end of the day we've brought them in as the expertise and so i think how did you discern what to do as these things were happening? If you didn't have the language around it, didn't really know the difference, were there a lot of mistakes that were made or was it kind of trial and error? Yeah, and I think we were really fortunate when we first launched the app. So we were working, we didn't have our dev team in-house, but we were very in touch with that team.

So we were starting to learn then, but it wasn't really until we had them in-house and understood that there was a lot to the decision making of things and the trying and testing and processes that like we hadn't seen before um so that was really difficult but also really hard to compare because um we didn't we didn't know like how quickly things should happen or um for example the dev team we worked with prior, they were pretty quick at making things happen. But when we unraveled it all, it wasn't necessarily the most sustainable feature that was put in. And so then we got this new team

that had a new way of working. And then obviously as a marketing and creative team who want things quickly and want to put things out there, we didn't quite understand the deeper build of things. And the lingo, like I'm still learning and I still don't get it but I think when you have a good team and they try and you know have it as the best way to explain things to you and they understand that um that they need to explain it to you in a different way than they will and they respect that we know our customer

and community um better than they do and that there's this like neutral respect of being able to work together perfectly to then bring these features out or these updates out and we don't know really I mean we go through obviously there's a lot of research we do customer surveys and research and reaching out to the community and understanding how they like to use the product and then we can also see different things like you know what classes are taken up the most and everything like that we can get all that data and that gives us the information to then you know direct us to the next steps but really until something's like in the app and we're testing it with a group of people or you know a percentage of our users we won't know if it's like 100% going to be you know this amazing thing you just

got to trial it yeah and because how many people are in the company now we've got 20 people in our team she's seriously impressive and you've also got a young child so how what was that like kind of you know because a business is a baby yeah when it's your own especially when you built it from your community that's so important to you what was that like managing those things because i feel for a lot of women around because how old are you now i'm 29 you're 29 wow so you're going through your saturn return probably we'll get into in a sec but you know for women your age my age i think there is this huge amount of pressure to wear all the hats in the

do it all do it all yeah because a lot of the responsibility they feel falls on them to kind of be at home being a mother then doing work as well like what has that been like because obviously that's changed your life in a whole different way it's been a really interesting journey i think i knew from a very very young age that i wanted to be a mum more than anything really in life like i i knew i was gonna love it um but i think then having him made me realize i probably didn't even know how strong like it it's, it's definitely increased. Like the amount of joy he brings me and fulfillment he brings me and being his mom is just kind of, I can't describe it, but where that challenge is. Can you try and describe it?

Because I'm always really fascinated. He's another limb. Like he's just, everything just revolves around him. I don't, my life, and I'm okay with it. It's this weird like. And you knew that you'd be like that or you didn't know to this I knew I was gonna like it and I knew I wanted it but I just didn't think I'd be so comfortable with my life sounds really selfish but revolving around someone else yeah no I'm with

you I'm with you I'm quite selfish but I'm like when I see people I'm like everything then does revolve around it does and I I I'm I'm all for people being selfish I do not see selfish as a negative thing and I try still to to be selfish in ways that I can because I think it's really important that you prioritize that you prioritize yourself absolutely um and I I do that because if I don't I'm you know my glass won't be full for him as well so it's been really interesting then balancing that with my first baby being kick because it brings me so much fulfillment and joy as well so and I'm fortunate to say that you know because for a lot of women who you know become

mothers I mean some don't have even an option they have to go back to work and and I feel for those that that do and then don't enjoy what they do like I couldn't even imagine because I've found it challenging but I love what I do so I just try and look at it in a way that I'm I'm so lucky that what I am balancing motherhood with when it does come to work is something that still brings me so much fulfillment and joy but also I truly believe we're making such a positive impact on the world that it's only going to improve his world too and so it's still somewhat in my mind revolving around him which makes me a little bit more comfortable but on a more practical level like actually just managing your time

how has that been my husband's a stay-at-home dad um and he loves it and i don't mind me asking what was that conversation like getting to that was it something that was before the baby came that you're like right this yeah so it was in the middle of covid we were in lockdown we had made a decision we were both part of another business we'd made the decision to exit that business um just because kick was taking off and lives were getting busy and we were trying to imagine what having harvey my son in the picture was going to do to it and it was just a bit too much and um we also just weren't in it anymore in our heart and i think through working through kick i've realized the difference in working on a business that you

actually love versus you know something you're just something you're a part of um so we made that decision which obviously freed up a lot of his time because that was his full-time thing at the time um and there were some other things he was working on the side but it was very manageable with the idea of being a stay-at-home dad and even when Harvey was first born within that first period um everyone was at home like we were in lockdown so even if he was kind of working he still would have been around but what it meant was that when I was going back into more of a I suppose full-time like position in the office I felt really comfortable because Harvey had grown up really close spending time with the both of us and so I knew like of course it toyed with my heartstrings

leaving him but he was with his dad and I felt really comfortable with that. And it's not to say that I wouldn't have felt comfortable sending him to daycare. Lots of my friends did that. Um, but Josh just was loving it and it just was working really well for us. And it was a pretty easy conversation. And I think because of kick and how well it was doing and how much I was not ready to, you know, step back from it or anything, because there's just so much we want to do. It was a pretty easy conversation.

And I think what I loved about that conversation and what I love about our relationship in general is genders are removed from, you know, anything when it comes to responsibilities around the house or like what we do. It's just like they're just open conversations which I think everyone should have and you've just got to make the decision that makes sense for your family and that's what made sense for us because you guys have been together for a really yeah really don't

when did you me well I met him when I was 12 and I had a crush on him yeah yeah so very very, no. I had a crush on him since I was 12. I didn't realize you known him that long. Yeah, yeah. So very, very close. His younger sister, actually, I was friends with first and she now works with us at Kik. So she runs our social media. And we met first and then I was introduced to his family and we had holiday houses close by. So we spent most weekends together for my teenage years.

And he was your first crush? Yeah. Well, he was the crush that just lingered. You know, I had dated other boys, but he was always there. And then when I was 18, we started dating. So it's 11 years now. 11 years. Yeah.

That's amazing. And to have that support system as well must be really powerful. It is. It is. And, you know, he's always there when things get really tough. He's always there to remind me that, know what we're doing is which it's funny I shouldn't need it but what we're doing is is so incredible and he's so proud of like the both of us it's really beautiful as well both of our partners are I'm like pointing to Laura yeah he was me today but you know both our partners are close too now which is which is nice because

they both have that um you know they can relate to us basically being a married couple yeah with the amount of time we spend together yeah and what about because obviously you're in london at the moment and homes australia like how do you manage the travel and all that kind of stuff is that tricky travel's only really just picked up for us listen even interstate and stuff like that it's it's kind of only really just getting back to normal now post-covid um but i think just because we love touching base with the community and seeing them so much it's so fulfilling that it's all it's all worth it in the end and that's not to say that this trip's been hard but but we're keeping busy and, you know,

we're so lucky with things like FaceTime now that I'm calling him anytime my heart's throbbing. And like you say, you have a connection to the UK. Yeah, exactly. So I feel comfortable being here and just so excited. And I think it's also I'm really lucky that he's at this age where time is not, like he doesn't quite understand time. So he thinks I'm at work with Laura, which is great because we are. But he doesn't quite understand that I'm not going to be there

for two weeks because he doesn't know what weeks are. So he'll just see me when I get home and it's like, oh, mum's here. Whereas I think if he was a little bit older, it might have been a little bit harder. And I know that time will come too and that'll be another thing we navigate. But no, I feel like we're so fortunate to be able to do what we do and fortunate to be able to travel again it was something that I loved about the modeling industry and my opportunities that I got to travel the world that was a huge part of why I loved doing it so being able to do that

for kick is just awesome dream yeah and finally I have to ask you because I do feel you are probably going through your Saturn return do you think there's like any do you think there's been anything that's happened or you feel like massive shifts in life at the moment because it sounds like you've got everything pretty solid so for some people it can just mean a sort of solidifying of things that have been in motion for a while do you feel like we're in a really good place or that things are changing a lot I do I feel like I'm I know I'm probably going to say this when I'm you know 35 45 50 but I know myself very very well now I feel like I've had I've lived a few different experiences that have taught me a

lot about myself and I'm finally at this like page I think in my chapter that I'm really really comfortable with who I am as a person and the direction that we're going with what we want to do with Kik I feel really really good about and really passionate about and I think I'm just really really lucky that at the moment we've got so much drive and ambition and my biggest driver actually is getting to a point where we truly feel like we've helped even more and more more people and can still be in touch with them and everything like that but also get to a point of contentment i think and i find elements of that within my life outside of work because right now we're very driven and we're very excited about growth right

now so outside of work i try and find just being content and not being crazy busy or wanting the next best thing or whatever it's just finding happiness and peace outside of work as much as I can and I think when that can also be like holistically I think that's what I'm driving towards as well it'd be awesome I think that's so important because when people get too caught up in the work stuff of yeah whilst it's valid to have goals and dreams and things we're working towards, if it's outweighing the moments of contentment. Yeah, you've got to acknowledge where you are, yeah.

Yeah, exactly. It can be detrimental. So I've loved this conversation. It's really inspired me. And I know our community is going to love, you know, discovering you if they haven't heard about you before and the company. And congratulations for everything that you guys are building. think it's really exciting thank you thanks so much

thanks for coming on the show thank you so much for listening to this conversation between myself and Steph I hope that you enjoyed it and like I said at the beginning, it was so lovely to meet her and have that FaceTime and hear about everything that they've been up to. We put a link in the show notes to their app if you guys are interested in exploring that a little bit. And this is the final episode from the season.

So it's been an emotional one, but we're taking a little break and then we will be back in full force in 2024 I cannot believe that I'm saying that this year has gone by in a flash but we've got plenty of exciting projects in the pipeline I cannot wait for you guys to hear about them so I'm sending lots of love wherever you are and thank you so much for your continued support of the show as always it's a nice reminder that if you guys feel like sharing it with someone I'm sure you have already or just putting it up on Instagram wherever you're listening whether it's during your walk or your evening bath I always love to hear where you guys are tuning in from so thanks again for everything

and sending lots of love and as always remember you're not alone goodbye