Saturn Returns with Caggie - 8.5 Digital Narratives: Building a Brand with Purpose in a Digital Age with Louise Troen

Episode Date: October 16, 2023

In this enlightening episode, we sit down with Louise Troen one of Caggie’s best friends and a remarkable Chief Marketing Officer whose unconventional career path has taken her from documentary filmmaking to communications and eventually to the forefront of brand building for some of the most groundbreaking apps in recent years, including Airbnb, Bumble, Headspace and her latest venture as the Chief Marketing Officer at Reveri, a self-hypnosis app. Louise delves into the digital era of apps and platforms, highlighting the crucial need for moderation in communication and community regulation as a means to protect and unite people. Louise also touches upon the societal pressures faced by younger generations, emphasising the significance of dropping unrealistic expectations and finding purpose in everyday life. She reminds us that embracing our struggles can lead to newfound perspectives, and that self-compassion and self-nurturing are vital components of personal growth and fulfilment. In a world where the lines between identity, purpose, and career are often blurred, Louise Troen's wisdom shines through as a beacon of guidance and inspiration. Join us as she shares her belief that taking risks, understanding your true self, and cultivating a compassionate mindset are the keys to achieving happiness and success. Her journey exemplifies the idea that your greatest gifts often arise from your biggest struggles, providing an opportunity to embrace fresh perspectives. So, whether you're a marketer, entrepreneur, or simply someone seeking a more fulfilling life, Louise's insights are sure to resonate, reminding us all to find purpose in the everyday and nurture our own growth in this complex digital age. You can find Louise: Instagram: @louisetroen --- Follow or subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. Today I'm joined by one of my best friends Louise Troen, who is currently working as the Chief Marketing Officer at the self-hypnosis app called Reverie but Louise has experience at some of the biggest global brands including Airbnb, Bumble and Headspace. I've wanted to sit down with Lou and have her on the show for years I've always been asking her to come on because every time I speak to her or hear her speak about what she does it's like my own personal TED talk she's incredibly inspiring

and she's one of my bestest friends and I know you guys are going to love this conversation because I know many of you are navigating the sort of complexities of the workspace and identity and purpose and carving out your career so I hope that you find some insight and wisdom from this conversation I've been looking forward to this conversation I feel like we've been talking about it for over a year well I've wanted you on the podcast for a couple of years just to kind of add for our listeners Lou is one of my dearest friends lucky me and for the audience that doesn't know would you be able to give a little bit of background of like your work what you do and how you kind of got to where you are now yeah of course

um so I work in marketing um I'm currently the CMO of a company called Reverie, which is a self-hypnosis app, which I'm sure we'll talk about later. I started my career in PR, working for a company called Freud's Communications, and began getting really passionate about mission-driven and purpose-first businesses when I was fortunate enough to work with Airbnb when they launched in the UK market. And I remember the team coming to us when I was at Freud's and I was very junior at the time and them explaining that they were creating this business model around strangers coming into your home. The entire space was unregulated, not moderated, and they wanted to introduce this notion of the sharing economy so creating a

separate economy stream for everyday people like me and you in partnership with a vision to allow people to travel more and belong in different places around the world genius and I remember at the time thinking this is incredible and this is going to be the future of technology. And that's when I started to get really inspired around tech as an enabler for all of us to have better access to better things and to live happier and healthier lives. And so we launched Airbnb into the UK market. It was a roaring success. For those of you who don't know, the Airbnb founder story is really interesting because it kind of dates back to Obama's inauguration in Washington. And the two guys that founded the company realized that there was going to be an influx of people traveling to be there live when the decision was made or the results came in. results came in um and they realized that the infrastructure of hotels and um you know other places to stay couldn't yeah couldn't um couldn't keep up with that demand and so they started a

website where people could just rent their sofas for fifty dollars twenty dollars ten dollars and were so overwhelmed by the amount of people that did it that they realized bang this is this is an opportunity to create a business um and that for me was just so exciting because in all of the work that I've done and, you know, any of the things that I've been so passionate about, it's really about identifying a problem, leaning into potentially looking for the opportunity there and then building a commercial model around it. Yeah, because you've been able to have this sort of first-hand experience in these really groundbreaking companies that have gone on to do serious stuff and even like Airbnb think listening back to that like obviously everyone recognizes it now and it seems really a

really normal way of traveling yeah like just as it would be to get a hotel equally normal to get airbnb but at that time it must have seen sounded like quite a foreign strange thing of like having strangers in your home and sort of yeah um yeah dismantling those the way that things have always been done and trying out something new and innovative and i think that's the power of and i work in the brand marketing and communication space but that is really the power of of and I work in the brand marketing and communication space, but that is really the power of marketing, right? It's the way that you present a platform, product, institution, whatever it might be that you're selling. It could be you as an individual when you walk into a room of new people, but it could also be a new business it's what are you educating people on how are you showing them the opportunity and what are you creating that's going to push culture forward and more often than not brands that I've worked with so I went on from Airbnb to work with various celebrities and their brand you know portfolios and then can you name some of them I worked with a DJ called Afrojack he was an

EDM DJ I had no idea what that was when I was given him as a client. It's electronic dance music, one of the big ones. I worked closely with Paris Hilton. Which is like the ultimate personal brand. I just remember having watched The Simple Life, and really when I moved to LA after this Airbnb experience, I really did for no other reason than I wanted to be Lauren Conrad from The Hills. And I was like, I'm going to live in the apartment near where she lived because I can't afford where she lives.

And I'm going to drive a convertible and I'm going to go and work for like a really cool brand or business. And I was lucky enough to find someone that took a chance on me. But I remember going, I think it was my first week, going to Paris's that took a chance on me um but I remember going I think it was my first week going to Paris's house for a shoot I think she was doing like a shoot with Hello Mag or something and driving up in my car being like I'm completely like on like I shouldn't be in this space like I'm completely like inexperienced to walk in and run this shoot but you know I often live in this world of like make believe and kind of you you pretend and make it up until it makes sense and fake it till you

make it absolutely or rather just keep faking it forever in my case I don't know if that's true but what are some of the pitfalls that you've experienced from the brands that you've worked with in terms of because I think you know being a friend of yours and really not having much of a marketing mind for those that have a product or an idea of a vision to take it from sort of conception to execution. And then I feel like for a lot of people, actually, the marketing aspect is the is the area that's really, really complex. And it always seems very easy from the outside when people do it right what are some of the things that you've seen whether that's a personal brand or an actual company that have not got it right and those that really have it's a great question and I think a lot of it is and comes down to experimentation and and trial and error from a channel perspective. So when people

come to me and say, should I launch this digital marketing campaign? Should I invest in PR? My social media isn't up to scratch. Like, should I invest in that first? You know, a lot of this depends on one, what your product functionality is. So how and what are you offering to people? Two to where you're meeting your consumer? Which channels are they engaging with of which you need to make sure you're showing up on? And three, does your creative and the way that you're coming across in personality and tone and visual and sound format, does that feed into all of those needs within those channels? So the conversation around marketing distribution specifically gets quite complex. But I think ahead of that, anyone that owns a brand or business needs to take a step back from that and say, what is my vision and mission? And how does that inform the values

and virtues of how I'm going to run the business? All of the companies that I've worked for and still work with started with, what are we trying to achieve here? And this isn't just saying we want to take Bumble as an example, one of the companies I work for. It wasn't just about empowering generations of women to make the first move. That was the vision. But the mission was just to get more women going first, addressing situations, leading with a confidence. Beyond the dating. Yeah.

What I will say, and this is sort of in hindsight, looking back at Bumble, is that one of the challenges when you grow very fast as a young company like Bumble did is that you try and diversify very quickly. We want to move into friendship. We want to move into business. Now we are this entire ecosystem where women can make the first move in all of these categories. If I was to look back, you know, our members and our consumers were telling us that they were using it the most for dating. And so whether the right decision was to diversify that as quickly as we did versus investing in the dating component to make it even more regulated even more safe even more moderated even more empowering as a place

for women to to find both casual interactions but also long-lasting love you know I question whether the speed and pace of which we diversified the brand was relatively beneficial to the business long term but also from a revenue perspective really that that was driven out of the dating side interesting it kind of makes me think about you know when people start stuff this dance between niche and knowing your target audience versus trying to be for everyone and I definitely sometimes you know struggle with that because I think when you have an idea or a vision and you don't necessarily have I mean you might have people that have done it slightly similar or some examples of inspiration but ultimately you're you're starting something completely new

yeah how much do you home in on like a niche like a sort of having that avatar if you will of a specific individual and like going for that versus but I want everyone to have this thing and I want it to be accessible for every person so I'm going to really open up the language and sometimes when you do that you can end up being for no one yeah I feel very strongly about this. And, you know, the current company that I'm working at couldn't exist in more of a stigmatized space. Right. Trying to get people to believe in self-hypnosis on a mainstream mass scale is a significant challenge, given all the assumptions around it. What I will say is that it is better to be something to someone than anything to everyone.

is that it is better to be something to someone than anything to everyone. Specificity is your absolute best friend at a time when, if we were having this conversation 15, 20 years ago, the feedback would be large scale digital brand campaigns, whether they're on social, you know, partnerships, even out of home ad campaigns tv spots they were the most effective way to get widespread awareness around your brand or business or company but all of that was based on the assumption that people were interested right whereas now we live in a world where the brand landscape is limitless it's almost overly competitive and we were talking earlier about this concept of choice paralysis. People don't know what is better for their skin, how they should be navigating their nutrition, which exercise is going to make them stronger versus fitter versus create better impacts on their mental health.

So really what we're doing as consumers is we're existing in this space of just trial and error all the time. I mean, it's exhausting though, because also with everyone that you're told to do, there's a conflicting one. And then a month later, you're actually told that that's really bad for you or something like that. So it does become quite overwhelming. But it's making me think of a couple of things. One that I feel as the landscape has changed that traditional model of the sort of tv route of advertisement to now essentially it's become democratized through social media so you can access people in a way that you couldn't through any other means other than the traditional one you needed

a huge budget to do that so you already had to have that backing whereas now like you say there's this trial and error with that i also think it means people are more savvy they're a bit more in tune with what's like authentically aligned with their values versus just oh that's on the tv therefore I'm gonna get it and also to kind of go into what we're talking about of like a personal brand and a business how much sort of impetus now is on community versus audience because I've even noticed in you know the last decade of my career I went from very much having an audience I was on TV it was all quite extreme to now I have a community of people but it's for me far more nurturing and do you think that that kind of connects to the way people operate and navigate business today?

Absolutely. I don't even use language like customer within the work that I do. I talk about community first and foremost. And that shifted? previously we weren't held accountable by our quote-unquote customers members consumers we weren't challenged we didn't have platforms like trip advisor or trust pilot or the app store the channels of which feedback are coming in directly from people using products is as powerful as marketing the traditional, if not more. You know, you'll see lots of brands now working and investing more aggressively in their app store optimization. What does that mean? So when you go into the app store, and let's say you're struggling with sleep at one in the morning,

you might type in insomnia. morning, you might type in insomnia. And app store optimization is a method of which you bid on keywords as a brand to come up as high to the top as possible so that people can see your brand, they can see how many stars you have on the app store. And generally speaking, the more stars that you have, well, not generally speaking, absolutely speaking, the higher your conversion rate is, because people buy into other people's feedback as opposed to what a brand is saying. And so this is where I often talk to my team about a kind of show, don't tell approach. We're not going to tell you that Bumble is the best dating app. We're absolutely not going to tell you that Airbnb has the best accommodation. And I'm definitely not

going to tell you that self-hypnosis is going to cure your chronic pain. What I am going to do is I'm going to show you Sarah from Portland, who was in pain for 20 years and did one session and never felt pain again. What I am going to do is show you Naomi and her husband who met on Bumble and now have a baby together. And so it's much less about educating people on the clinical backing of hypnosis or, you know, Whitney's story at Bumble. This stuff is important in terms of building the brand. But if you aggressively want to get to a point where people buy into you, it is about showing them the value. And I think that's something that you do so brilliantly on the podcast because you have the space language-wise, you have the channels interactivity-wise for people to feel like that fourth

wall between brand and them is broken down and that they are part of this movement that you're embarking on. And that's really what the brands that I've worked for, at least I've tried to kind of bring to fruition through the work I do. And even beyond that, it's recognising that, you know, the hero's journey, the person that's listening watching searching yeah they are the protagonist in their story they are the main character and how are you going to facilitate them getting to where they're trying to head basically and I think that is perhaps like slightly changed as well because I don't know it's like even I'm thinking with the the world of sort of celebrity I feel like that's changed so much but when we were growing up we had these people that

were sort of not even human you know they were the more perfect and manufactured the better yeah whereas now people don't want the finished packaged product they want the process they want to know how you got there and I think part of that is because they want to process they want to know how you got there and I think part of that is because they want to see they want to see themselves in that person they want to see the kind of hardships that they go through and and the road to get to where they are and I think also like now with people that do present too perfectly and course, like Instagram is still awash with this, but people are starting to really not like it. I mean, like the person that's coming to mind

is like Gwyneth Paltrow, who, by the way, I adore. And I, you know, I love what she's created and I love her career shift. But noticing this sort of noise on social media around her recently, it's like people have just not they've slightly dehumanized her because I think perhaps she hasn't shared enough vulnerability or whatever do you know what I mean I I think people dehumanize though based on their own creation of a version of her for example you know I I don't think it's relevant to discuss it in this conversation, but I've been listening to the J.K. Rowling podcast.

So fascinating. It really is. And I think, you know, we would owe that several hour of conversation to dig into it. perspective on on the situation around um the trans community she says that people built her up to be this mother figure that she could never uphold which we do with celebrities all the time which is why we it was like the greatest degree you can be put on a pedestal but also as an author you're very different to a celebrity you hold higher expectations you are an academic. You are articulate. We expect you to behave and honor certain principles because of the industry that you're in. The thing with celebrities,

especially celebrity culture in America, is that we expect them to fall. We expect them to go through their divorces and their heartbreaks. And when Jennifer Aniston and Brad Pitt divorced, we got angry, but then we forgave him. It's sort of this dance that we do with entertainment culture that we kind of enjoy when it's an actor or a singer.

Enjoy the fall. Absolutely, because we all fall ourselves. And so it's reassuring to know that some of the biggest quote unquote stars... Are human too. Are also falling. And then we feel more comforted in our falls where I think it gets it does feel damaging that's exactly I was going to say where it

gets challenging is where we find comfort in other people's pain which has been a schadenfreude sort of psychology yeah and that as well again it's always existed especially in celebrity culture you only need to go to the sort of the daily mail comments and it's like the cesspit of humanity but within the realms of social media people are doing it to each other left right and center and also guising it as sort of virtue signaling of like as if they're doing something good because they think they have a cause that's worthy but actually they are just my friend calls it like digital stoning someone what what are your kind of thoughts on that as I mean we've kind of gone on a bit of a like tangent there but I think it's such an interesting

aspect of human nature as someone that's essentially analyzing the way people respond to stuff yeah What are your thoughts on it? I mean, I think this comes back to just the digital era of apps and technology and platforms overall. And the fact that, you know, for me, moderation and regulation of community is really important. And that's not to say that freedom of speech or language should be restricted, but you would never be able to go up to someone in the street and assault or harass or abuse them in the way that language is thrown around in the digital space. Which is abusive. And it is as traumatic and damaging as many other, you know, abuse settings of which typically the police would get involved or there would be some form of consequence for those in that world. So I feel very strongly that if you are creating a community, which we are doing at Reverie and we absolutely did at Bumble, that there has to be a

team and set of principles and where possible, you know know legal consequences to ensure that the environment protects people in the most optimum capacity and what I struggle with some of these platforms out there at the moment is that they're not regulated and regulation is a way of protecting people and cultures and communities from turning on each other. And so I have grave concerns about allowing, and this is where it gets challenging with freedom of speech versus regulation, but there is a difference between being able to speak your version of events, regardless of how controversial they are, and abuse. And I think the dance there is very delicate. And we need more of these major tech platforms to take a stance on it from a

moderation perspective where you are not welcome on these platforms to share your opinion if they sit within this, you know, abuse category. How do you regulate that though? Well, there's different ways that you can do it. One of the things, well, there are actually several brands that are working on ways of and bumble actually brought this into the app um using ai artificial intelligence to catch um language verbiage uh there are various other institutions and platforms that help um catch language that is either bullying misogynistic, racist, you know, the entire spectrum of what counts as inappropriate or abusive terminology. It can catch people using

that in the digital space and then block them, ban them, or at least send them to a human to regulate or monitor their profile. So there can be more accountability. Yeah. But what it requires is investment from the brands and this is where I come back to you know I vehemently believe that and I felt very strongly about this with with our social impact work at headspace which is another brand I worked at that brands have a duty and a responsibility to almost show up like our political systems should so it's powerful as and our political systems are failing us. Our social systems are overwhelmed.

Our healthcare systems are in disarray. And we have brands that represent vision thinking that offer access to education, healthcare, beyond. And we are not using them in a way that is propelling culture forward. We are too focused on them being commercially viable. And I think there is a role that every brand should take where social impact is at the core, rather than thinking, okay, we're selling these sneakers, and for every pair, we'll plant a tree. It's much more about how can you put social impact and cause marketing, is what we call it, at the forefront of your brand.

Because every company can do it regardless of their product or function. Or, you know, you could be a hotel group, you could be a podcast, you could be a person. I think it's understanding what is my role in culture from an impact perspective and how can I leverage the reach the investment the team I have to drive that forward and if we all invested in that I think the world would be a much better place and also just for anyone listening regardless of where they're at in their career that's something that we should all take into account but it also works commercially look at Patagonia well I was gonna my next thing was, without knowing very much, I could imagine that for systems and big corporations to actually change their behavior or put a huge amount of investment in these kind of areas, is it sort of they're all looking at each other thinking, well, I don't want to take a profit hit. So I'm just going to take a profit hit so

I'm just going to carry on as I am because it's working from a commercial perspective yeah and therefore not doing it but then you just said it's it is actually commercially beneficial and then yeah Patagonia is a sort of an amazing example of someone that actually has done so much but what has the sort of domino effect if there has been a ripple effect been of that if there has been any at all so I think the first thing to say is like this is capitalism 101 in terms of like the rich make more money to be more rich and I think it's very difficult to expect every CEO CMO anyone that works in any and every business to think like we're thinking. There is an inherent desire from humans to be successful, make money,

be profitable. And so for me, it kind of comes back to a mindset shift from every individual like why and what is our legacy here like we know that there is a baseline of a salary that equates to happiness and it is much less than many people yeah and it is like what's it like 60 it's about 64 grand yeah yeah it's like the optimal 70 000 us yeah um which beyond that point you don't feel any beyond that point it doesn't add value outside of maybe a slightly bigger hotel room maybe you get to fly a class better but those things make you happier no it makes you feel like you have achieved and then what tends to happen is that you're on this constant hamster wheel of acquisition of assets of the hedonic treadmill of like okay well maybe if I have an even bigger house yeah or a new car new wife

did you see it and I I it really became apparent to me during my time in LA where it was like everyone had all the things they had the glossy house the shiny hair and they were some of the most unhappy people I've ever met the people at the very top of that sort of hedonic world or hedonistic lifestyle and it really made me think it's like, OK, we're all sort of chasing this. But I think this is also where, you know, I talk a lot about career trajectories and I mentor several young women who are in their mid 20s saying I'm not where I thought I should be or I haven't had a pay rise in a year or, you know, my boss isn't inspiring enough. And I think for me, the advice there is always come back to what makes you leave work feeling fulfilled if you don't feel that either if you're not learning from someone if you don't feel passionate about the work that you're doing to take a jump and to take a risk because that will always be where you operate at your best not even just about happiness right like

I've always followed very different brands from mental health to dating apps, to motorsports, to music, to fashion. I've kind of worked across the cross section, but I've always come back to, does this product or platform inspire and propel something culturally forward? And that could have been a pair of converse sneakers like what i loved about converse is that for 20 pounds or now 30 pounds for a pair of chuck

taylors you could buy into an entire representation of music and risk and you know cultural relevancy and and that is a really powerful message to send to young people. And so I think there are concerns that I have around a couple of things at the moment. One is that we're also obsessed with this success hierarchy, that we actually forget to enjoy the work and the impact that we're having in the now, which is one of the most fulfilling things, you know, that we should all be focused on. And the second thing is, if you're not being paid your value, do not expect that to change. Leave. People will only ever pay you your worth when you tell them what that worth is. And the more varied your experience, the better. I was always told at very young age stay on a trajectory keep working for the same boss stay at a company that everyone knows the name of and I did the opposite I I left Freud's after a year and a half I was in LA for two years I came

back I worked with Converse and Uniqlo for a couple of years jumped again to Bumble. I moved around as at the speed of which my passion was moving. And I moved to companies and brands that I genuinely cared about regardless of salary. And in the end, you know, now the package and the salary benefit has paid off. But I didn't worry about that. I mean, outside of obviously paying my rent and needing to kind of live a basic means lifestyle. But I would encourage people to along with you know being able to financially support themselves go to where it feels most fulfilling because that will collectively allow you to jump much further long term um then kind of settling for just you know a higher salary job even though it's compromising your values yeah it's interesting because, you know, to tie in what we were saying earlier

about the sort of having too many options and having that paralysis analysis of not knowing which way to go. With younger generations, and we kind of missed this really, probably quite fortunately, but it depends what way you look at it that you know you've got 19 year olds or people just fresh out of uni for us it was like did we have enough money to go to the pub that's honestly all we really cared about I don't know about you but that's all like if I did I was golden that was fine whereas now they're going online they're seeing tiktokers three years younger than them that have bought like a house for like five million and they're like okay i'm not i'm not there and it's really it's changed the sort of the the ladder if you will of the way things traditionally operated which was very much we

came out of school we'd go to uni we'd all get jobs that didn't pay anything we'd be interning for ages and not being paid anything and then we'd slowly make our way up up the ladder and of course then some people excel some people don't so much and then it goes in different directions but now that's happening from a much much younger age younger age and we also have visibility across it all all the time so we're seeing how so many people are doing living their life in different ways they all look wonderful they all are conflicting it's it's overwhelming but on the flip side of that I think it's created or intensified this idea that our identity and our purpose and what we do are all very intertwined in a way that they weren't like my mum's like you

know we got out of uni we had a choice of five jobs yeah and that was really quite simple and it wasn't viewed as like well this has to be my vocation and my calling and my passion and my purpose and like awaken all these things in me whereas now I think people are seeking that which is positive but it also is quite a tall order on the other side of it being like overwhelming it also means that people can do things in a completely new and innovative way that they couldn't before yeah if you think about how many people we know that are entrepreneurs that are just starting these tech companies from like thin air and you know and just being able to just pave very unique roads for themselves which I think is amazing in the way things are moving but I also really know how many people that listen to this podcast

are at that age where they're having that yearning for something that really aligns with them on like a soul level what is your sort of advice for people and your thoughts on that kind of interconnection between identity purpose and a career I think the first thing to say is we need to all drop our expectations of ourselves myself and you definitely included this assumption that we're going to find our purpose our calling it's going to pay us really well, people are going to think it's really cool, and that we're going to leave a legacy, is as bonkers as trying to reach perfection. I think that the most important thing is to see your life as a journey and as a process, of which the closer you can get to things that you care about and that you love you know even language like purpose scares me sometimes because it's taking us into a world

of if we're not doing something that delivers that purpose every day we feel unfulfilled we are not living our life to the optimal potential and And that's absolutely not true. What we should be saying is if you can find purpose in every day, not if every hour of your job is saving the world and leaving a legacy for your children to be prime ministers, it's unrealistic and it is unfair on young people to assume that they can jump into those roles as quickly as they're seeing on TikTok. I guarantee that the people that are seeing overnight fame, that are reaching millions of followers on these social channels are as weighed down and burdened with the negative impact of social media as they are with the benefits of it. So the other thing I would say is,

and actually you and I talk a lot about this in our personal lives um your your greatest gift is also going to be your biggest weakness yeah and your Achilles heel and I know what you mean by that because we've had this conversation we've sort of philosophized it enough but for the for someone that like might not know what that mean can you give us an example of that yeah so I've kind of never really talked about it openly which is unusual considering I work for a mental health brand but no one really asked has ever asked me about it but I've gone through various mental health challenges, you know, myself, from struggling with anxiety, depression, insomnia. Like when I'm at the GP, I'm just like ticking every box. They're like, whoa,

don't put her on how much alcohol as well. But as I've grown up, what I've realized is that struggling, and I choose my words very carefully, I don't say suffering, I say struggling with anxiety and moments of depression has been the greatest privilege with the view of it giving me access to a feeling I never would have seen before. of it giving me access to a feeling I never would have seen before. And on the back of that, I have been able to find more acute joy by leaning into perspective than I would ever have felt if I hadn't felt those things. Days when I don't feel anxious, moments I haven't felt low, I am dripping in joy because I am so, I feel so fortunate to be away from some of those other challenging feelings. The other thing that I will say is

I wouldn't take away feeling those things because of what they allowed me to learn about the depths of my character in those moments and also how it enabled me to relate to other people that are struggling with things and as someone that is building brands and businesses for consumers and communities to help them live better lives there was no better way to do that than feeling all of the things yourself it's like doing a crash course in a focus group. And so when I say, you know, my greatest gift is my Achilles heel, I would say, take anxiety. It feels like you are kind of riddled in adrenaline, that your energy is greater than your ability to channel it, that you feel nervous in environments where typically you'd feel acutely confident but what it also allows me to do is to channel that energy into motivation inspiring myself to do work pace and the speed of which we do things. It also allows me to see every single risk, you know, people that are suffering or struggling with anxiety will know that you are on high alert. It's kind of the best way to describe it physically and also mentally.

But what that transpires in a work capacity is that you generally can see all of the risks before they come to fruition, which makes me really good at my job because gaps that other people would typically see, I've already caught them because my brain is wired in a way to protect me from those environments. So I suppose my point here is whether it's, you know, anxiety, whether it's depression, whether it's catastrophizing or whatever it might be that you're challenged with, I encourage people to think through how that also makes you who you are. Because I genuinely believe that the difficult things about me and you are also what allow you to be so brilliant. A hundred percent. Yeah, for me, it's like my sensitivity and growing up,

that always felt like it was going to be my biggest obstacle and challenge. And I spent a lot of my 20s trying to numb that or dial it down. And it was obviously futile, but now I I can see and it's been a unanimous theme of every single person that's come on the podcast is that they've somehow managed to alchemize or see the sort of beautiful alchemy of their struggle being their greatest strength and I think that's such a beautiful thing for our audience to hear and recognize because we're all human and we're all going through struggles and feel the same things and I remember there was I listened to a podcast it was Oprah and it was someone was asking her what was one of her greatest findings of doing

the work that she's done and that and she said all pain is the same whatever someone is experiencing across the world that you think you can't you know say a woman in Africa has lost a child but then you know someone around the corner here has it's like it's the same even if you don't feel you have anything in common with that person that feeling of loss is the same and strangely that's a very comforting definitely because I think when we're in that state in ourselves and we're in you know we have that cloud of depression it can the one of the worst aspects of it is feeling like you are the only one experiencing it I think we've all been there with when we've had our moments of depression I know I've called on you when I have and that's why we often isolate ourselves or when we're going

through a heartbreak and we're like no one has ever felt this pain and actually when you realize that everyone everyone like is and has and is learning and growing from it simultaneously. And it actually kind of forms you into a more beautiful, well-rounded human being. It's all part of this tapestry of our characters, that if we were sat here, which I hope we will be, when we're 80 years old, reflecting back on our lives, no one wants to tell a story of a life that was perfect brilliant all the time if I was to sit with any new person that asked me to explain to them how I got to where I was in my career the things that I've learned all of the advice I would

give would come out of really difficult moments all of it you know I moved to this country on my own I went through a difficult breakup I you know went through various challenges in my career I nearly went through a burnout I you know I'm now with someone who's just gone through cancer treatment like all of these things are the things that define me my relationships and how I view my life. So I definitely, I wish that I could say to my younger self, the things that you think are so terrible about yourself, Louise, have to exist for the brilliant things to live to. I think that's the most important message I would send to any young woman

is they have to exist. So you might as well befriend them and be like, that's the most important message I would send to any young woman is they have to exist so you might as well befriend them and embrace them and and be like okay it's going to be a difficult day that guy broke up with me and I feel really terrible about it but this is going to be a story and this is going to grow me and it will mean that it will guide me to the right person and just constantly and of course it's hard and there are days where you just and by god I've had the days where I'm just like okay no I can't go into that like constant positive optimistic thinking yeah but it's not it's not sort of spiritual bypass it's not like paint it over with a

positive thought it's just reframing and knowing like guess this is how you can sit in that pain you can marinate in it for a little bit but know that you'll give yourself that time where it's like okay no no more because I think the worst thing like we hear it but I don't think we've really changed our behaviors like I agree we were talking with our eight-year-old selves they would probably say like why did you waste so much time beating yourself up telling yourself you weren't enough say like I saw someone put up this thing the other day it was like don't spend 95% of your life trying to be 5% lighter or smaller and it was just like things like that you know think how much time especially as women we agonize over like

where we should be better where we should improve and we were talking about this before we started recording of how that can also sort of go into the personal development space and whilst like it's obviously the space I occupy and it's crucial to me and my well-being I have to check myself getting to the point where it's like don't make life harder than it needs to be like give yourself compassion and allow yourself to experience joy when those moments come and be present in them rather than always thinking what needs to be improved but also as part of that tactically take away the things around you that aren't making you feel like that if following certain people on social media makes you remove those people come off social media listen to the podcast that nurture you and share

guidance and advice and insight that empowers you. There is a way that we can also make better decisions. It's like self-regulating. Correct. Before the brands actually step up and do it, we actually have to have that sovereignty and autonomy to be able to be like, you know what? Scrolling for two hours in the evening or like two hours throughout the day

with people that look like they're living a much better life isn't actually making me feel very good and this kind of goes into the like the next thing I wanted to talk to you about was with the work the places where you have worked a lot of it is around mental health what has been something that you've noticed over the last couple of years even decade of how many people are suffering struggling with mental health issues compared to what it was sort of pre pre this digital world that we live in I think the first thing to say is

mental health challenges are inevitable with all of us every single one of us it's like assuming that you won't have a physical ailment of someone that's everything from like falling over and bruising your leg to having a headache right it is part of being human that you go through mental health challenges and I think the way that the category conversation has been up until the last couple of years is I suffer from mental health or I don't you know there's people that even I have conversations with people that have worked or still work at mental health brands and companies that say, you know, I've never felt mental health challenges, which is absolutely inaccurate. Everyone is stressed at some point. Everyone has a tricky night's sleep at one point. All that mental health is, is your brain chemistry

fluctuating, just like your physical capabilities fluctuate. And there are periods in your life in which it is more stable, just like there are periods in your life where you are physically healthier. And then there are situational moments where you might struggle more because of grief or a breakup, or it could be brain chemistry related. And so I think the most important thing to say is it is inevitable that we will all face some form of challenge when it comes to our mental strength, just like our physical. And the second thing to mention is it is wholly manageable to live a life, a full, thriving, brilliant, beautiful life with those challenges in tow.

thriving brilliant beautiful life with those challenges in tow um the number one thing that i have seen well actually there are probably two things the first thing is people are more confused more desperate and more lonely than ever before um and i think part of that is because we are so acutely aware of our development our progress, our brains are on an overactive treadmill of trying to better ourselves so that when we don't feel good, better, thriving, we move into a space of complete disappointment and demotivation instead of just seeing it as part of the ritual and process of being human. Growth not linear it goes up and down and up and down and if you look at any growth chart from any big brand or commercial business it's not one direct line going to the top of the chart it goes down it moves up there are

seasonalities there's more investment your capital drops but ultimately on average the curve is increasing and that's exactly how we need to see our our lives and I think the the trick to managing your mental health is to establish what the right combination of inputs are for your brain based on what makes you feel the optimal version of yourself and when I say the optimal version, I absolutely don't mean the perfect version or the best version. I mean a version that can have a coffee and feel content, a version that can be in love and not feel anxious, a version that can feel empowered in their job,

but is still learning and knows that they're going to get things wrong. It's about being comfortable with your mindset as an individual. And I'm still learning those things about myself constantly. But one thing that we always do in marketing are these sort of AB controlled tests where we'll launch, you know, a billboard ad in one state in America, and we will run a TV spot in another state. And then we'll compare how people are interacting with those two channels to make a call on how we invest in the future.

And I tend to do the similar sort of things with my brain in terms of measuring and monitoring if I don't drink alcohol and I exercise and I see the right people and I prepare for the big presentation that I have and I read the book that inspires me, if I do the combination of things that I know will make Louise the optimal person in that moment versus a combination of other things that perhaps aren't optimal for me, then I know sort of from a self-regulation point of view, when I do those things, I have a brilliant life or a good enough life um and so I think you know this desperation and this loneliness that I'm seeing and we've seen it you know at Headspace the amount of people that reached out to us at Reverie we get messages of you know people saying we've saved their lives that they felt completely alone until they found us that they'd suffered with x y or or Z and had never found support before.

I think we're living in a time where we assume that this digitalization means that we have more access to more information and more people, but that can also feel desperately overwhelming and isolating when you're not having that face-to-face connection um and so i think there's really a combination of number one identifying what the right the right inputs for you and your own mental health to live you know at the the most comfortable um pace possible and the other thing is making sure that community and connection comes first before digital interaction because I think there's nothing more powerful than people like touch energy and we seem to be getting further and further away from that and it doesn't surprise me that our you know distribution of big pharma medications

is increasing drastically and I'll you know I won't get the numbers right but it's something close to 50 percent each year of additional medication being prescribed which I think also shows the desperation of people you know I think we're moving at a pace of You know, I think we're moving is a combination of development that ultimately comes back to you as an individual and the inputs that you put in on a day-to-day basis rather than these big big extreme um quick fixes it's like the it's the sort of daily discipline and the variables and also having the sovereignty as an individual to know that like it's unique to you and that there isn't going to be this one shop fix all yeah thing that we can all do you know

and the most empowering thing to do is to educate yourself on those inputs so you know one of the things that I've struggled with is when I've had challenges in my life is going to doctors or GPs or people that have given me advice based on a book that they've read or something they've studied psychiatry that they studied 10 years ago for four years and trusting in a system which isn't necessarily up to date with all the information that is coming out on a constant basis whether it's clinical trials whether it's academic research and so I've really taken it upon myself to re-educate myself and encourage anyone that is struggling with something not to just rely on quote-unquote credible sources but to actually do their own form of kind of growth hacking their

minds by playing around with variables and making sure that they personally are documenting like okay how did that make me feel rather than just being told to go on antidepressants by a doctor or said so yeah or doing couples therapy because two of their friends are and and you know they feel like if they don't their relationship will fail like I don't necessarily think that's the right approach I think it's all about trial and error and I think it always should be and experimenting with what works for you as an individual rather than being prescribed some form of routine that doesn't necessarily help you and as a final thing for anyone that's kind of listening that's perhaps talk thinking about a change or going through their Saturn return and in that kind of chaotic moment if you could is there like a bit of advice that you'd have for you know particularly young women I would say one of my favorite lines which is in a

book that I recently read for the third time but it opens up and it just says for the girls with messy hair and thirsty hearts and I would say that any formative or transitional period like your Saturn returns, like a breakup, you know, like a new job, like all of these moments are desperately unsettling but it is the unsettling that strips away the inessential and when you strip away the inessential you really feel who you are deep down from a character perspective. That's when the values and the virtues erupt in you. So I would say going back to the reframing component that we talked about, lean into the chaos, write it all down, speak it all out, record it. That chaos will be your greatest gift in terms of your experience. And knowing what and who you are as an individual at that absolute core base, and Saturn Returns is a great example of when you go through that,

is where and who and what your identity is. So this big quest and question of who am I and what do I associate myself with? These unsettling transformative periods. That is when you will find that out. I love that. That is so beautiful. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. I love you. And joining us.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Saturn Returns. I hope you found it useful. And if you did, please share it with a friend and write us a review on Apple because that helps us get discovered by more like-minded people or just share us on social media if you like this episode that would be that would be lovely too so thank you very much for listening and as always remember you are not alone goodbye