Saturn Returns with Caggie - 8.8 Sarah Wilson on Breaking Free: From the Hedonic Treadmill to a Wild, Precious, and Sustainable Life

Episode Date: November 6, 2023

Saturn returns is all about embracing and finding our true path, even if it means veering off the well-trodden one. It’s about resilience, adaptability, and finding a sustainable way of living that truly resonates with us. So I’m thrilled to be joined by Sarah Wilson In today’s episode of Saturn Returns. A former journalist, Cosmopolitan Australia's editor, and MasterChef Australia host who has truly lived a life less ordinary.  At 34, facing a life-threatening autoimmune disease, Sarah chose to quit sugar, a decision that not only managed her symptoms but also led to the creation of the global “I Quit Sugar” movement. She documented her journey and insights, encouraging others to embrace a healthier, sugar-free lifestyle.  This period of transformation led to Sarah embracing a more unconventional life, choosing a much more minimalist simple life, focused on travel, nature and discovery. Sarah officially jumped off the hedonic treadmill, moving away from her successful media empire to live in a forest army shed. Her experiences, including her battles with bipolar disorder and obsessive-compulsive disorder, are candidly shared in her book "First We Make the Beast Beautiful." Here, she reimagines anxiety, turning it into a source of strength and advocating for living authentically amidst life's chaos. We discuss Sarah’s latest book, "This One Wild and Precious Life," which addresses the collective feelings of anxiety and disconnection prevalent in today's world, fostering a sense of community and connection. She explores the modern challenges facing humanity, including climate change, political unrest, and the pervasive feelings of emptiness despite material abundance and how a shift to live more sustainably is not only essential, but will also lead to more happiness and fulfilment.  Join us in this episode as we explore Sarah’s journey and uncover the transformative power of living a wild and precious life. This One Wild and Precious Life Order Here Sarah's substack here Wild with Sarah Wilson here --- Follow or subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. After working on this podcast and having this personal fascination with Saturn, I wanted to create something for you to help you on your own journey. In my first online course, I'll take you through Saturn's principles and show you how to triumph through the chaos. A Saturn is all about our authenticity and ultimately it seeks our excellence. This course is here to help you understand how Saturn shows up in our lives through seven major themes. Saturn is known as the task master of the universe and is strongly tied with identity and

purpose but in order to know our true identity and purpose in this life we have to go through many deaths and rebirths and cultivate discipline, responsibility, self-authority to get to a place of self-love. Through guided journaling exercises, meditations and video content, I will take you on a journey towards your inner knowing. This course is on sale now and available at saturnreturns.co.uk. And don't just take my word for it, here's Sophie from our community who recently completed her Saturn Returns course journey. Hi, my name is Sophie and I just finished the Saturn Returns course. I am a big fan of the podcast and the books, just came out of my Saturn return, had a ton of ideas sort of swirling around and wanted to get more clarity. So when the course

came out, I bought it right away. I find a ton of value from journaling, but I don't always know what to write. So Kagi sort of guiding you through this seven week or however long it takes you to do it. A self-guided program was invaluable. I feel like I learned a ton about myself and the meditations are incredible. The resources she recommends are incredible. And I will definitely be buying many more courses because I got so much value out of this one. So if you're considering it, I would say whether you're about to embark on your Saturn turn in the middle of it, just got out of it, there's definitely something in it for you. So for sure, give it a try. We have this ability.

If we love something hard enough, if we know something to be true, we will fight for it. And so my book is really an exploration that tries to get people to love life and their congruency in the flow of nature and all of that again, because then we will fight for it. Today, I am joined by the powerhouse that is Sarah Wilson, a multi-New York Times and Amazon best-selling author, social philosopher, international keynote speaker, minimalist and philanthropist. You might be familiar with Sarah's work because she founded the global movement I Quit Sugar. She was the editor of Cosmopolitan Australia at 29. She hosted the most watched TV series show in the nation's history, the first season of MasterChef Australia, and she wrote

the bestseller First We Make the Beast Beautiful, which is a book all around living with anxiety. We grapple with the looming shadow of climate change. Sarah challenges us to rethink, re-evaluate and most importantly to act. It's not just about policies and technologies, it's about values and mindset and about redefining the narrative. So fasten your seatbelts as we embark on this very exciting journey with the one and only Sarah Wilson. Sarah, welcome to the Saturn Returns podcast. Thank you. It's lovely to be here. Thank you for coming because you've come from Paris, but you are originally Australian.

I have a very strong connection to Australia. I've been there a couple of times and I absolutely love it. Yeah, people think I'm mad to leave Australia to go and live in a big noisy city like Paris but, you know, there's a bunch of reasons for it. Paris is actually a really great base for catching a train to all different parts of Europe to sort of, you know, be part of the conversation that's happening in the world at the moment and also it's a romantic city, you know.

It is a romantic city. I've been 15 years single and uh I go to Paris and I I think in the first two weeks I got asked out on 11 dates and the men showed up they showed up they didn't ghost or do a no show so um wow yeah do you think that they're more confident there are we more wowing that the men showed up or wow that they don't elsewhere? I was quite shocked that you actually said, oh, they actually showed up. I was like, why wouldn't? Like, is that a thing that men wouldn't show up? Yeah, it's a phenomenon.

I think anyone who's single listening to this would probably go, oh, yeah, that's just what happens. But to ask someone out and then not go to the date. Yes. But why? You might have to ask all the men out there collectively. Men? Look, I think it's part of dating culture. It's the whole app culture.

It's I think a space that the world's in in terms of being very avoidant. And I think we're a generation and I'm older than the generation I'm really talking about but because I'm engaged in dating apps, I'm sort of embroiled in it all, who have grown up or are surrounded with technology that enables us not to connect, right? So, you know, and I write about this in my latest book, how we do the diet version of life. So instead of having sex, we watch porn, you know, instead of meeting in real life, we sit on apps and, and go backwards and forwards. Exactly. And so we're doing the, the, the low calorie diet version instead of the full fat, nutritious, robust version of things. And so we're in that habit where we've lost the ability to know how to do,

well, as I write in the book, go to the edge, go to the edge of life where the vibrancy happens and we cocoon, you know, we cocoon. And I think obviously the pandemic amped that up a bit, you know, and there's a generation of young people who are not going out to get their driver's license because it's too scary. And it's one thing that you can't do with technology right like you can't go and get your driver's license you can't cheat it and do a fake version of it right so fast yeah so actually people aren't going and doing those things because they find it too daunting they've lost the habit right and it is scary it's scary to turn up for a date. But we used to just do those things. We had to.

We had to. There was no other way. Like when I was growing up, and this is giving away just how old I am, somebody would have to get your phone number off you and write it with a pen and paper. And they'd have to meet you in real life to do that. And then they would have to ring a landline. And there was a really good chance your dad would pick up the phone, you know, and you'd have to talk to this person's dad. And then you'd have to ring a landline and there was a really good chance your dad would pick up the phone you know and you'd have to talk to this person's dad and then you'd have to ask them out and then you wouldn't have a phone where you can just sort of write a breezy hey I'm not going to

be able to make it babe you know another time you don't get that opportunity you know you might only have one opportunity to get in touch with this person on a phone and you've got to show up the following Tuesday at you know whatever cafe and also if you've got to show up the following Tuesday at, you know, whatever cafe. And also if you're going to have the courage to go and speak to someone in the street, then you're obviously going to want to meet up with them. You've developed some resilience and you've already invested and then you've got to get excited about it. And then, yeah, there was more enrolment.

There was the full fat version of life, the full nutritious, flavorsome version, you know. And sadly, there's so much that we avoid and are able to avoid. And I say this in the book, technology isn't the problem. Technology only ever enables some of our worst behaviors. Like anything, really. Exactly. It's how we use it. So I want to really get into all of this stuff and the book, but for

our audience that doesn't know, would we be able to bring it right back to the beginning and how you got into the work that you do and where that journey kind of began for you? Well, it probably began as a kid. I grew up in the country outside Canberra, which is the capital of Australia, in the middle of nowhere. And it sounds very romantic. We had goats for milk and meat, but it was in the middle of a drought. It was bleak. And mum and dad were just broke. They had no money. So myself and my five siblings, we grew up out there. And it was a very, it was a subsistence living existence. So very simple. We built everything, made everything or that kind of thing. So that probably explains

a little bit of about where I am today. But in between, it was a bit of a kind of thing. So that probably explains a little bit of about where I am today, but in between, it was a bit of a kind of an up and down journey. So I was a journalist. I worked for Rupert Murdoch, did my cadetship there. I was a restaurant reviewer, but I also had an opinion column. So I was this sort of token left-wing female voice, you know, in one of the major newspapers. Off the back of that, I became the editor of Cosmopolitan Australia at 29. And then I went on to host MasterChef Australia. All of this happened by accident. I didn't apply for these jobs. In fact, I got the job as host of MasterChef on Christmas Eve. I got a phone call and they said, you're the new host of this new

show that's going to start. And I'm like, but I didn't apply for it. Like I've done all these kinds of things in the commercial world, you know. And then eventually I gave it all up, moved to an army shed in the forest, gave away all my belongings and started playing around with my health. I developed this autoimmune disease that almost killed me when I was 34, which is why I quit media. First Cosmo and then it was about two years later that I quit television and I just had to heal. So I developed this program called I Quit Sugar, which was just my own exploration. Literally, I quit sugar,

I gave it a go and then I decided to share the information. Twitter had just been invented, so that gives another indication of how old I am. And so I started tweeting out these recipes and images of the food I was creating. And it turned into an e-book, which turned into a print book. And then I think it sells in 52 countries. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You were already interested in food, obviously. But then with the health situation, did that then deepen that interest in nutrition i was literally doing it as a way well actually i was writing a column like in a in a weekend newspaper insert

where each week i would do an experiment with my health because i was so unwell if you don't mind me asking what was oh i had a autoimmune disease called Hashimoto's which is a thyroid disease but I'd run myself so far into the ground and left it untreated that the doctors said that I was two weeks from heart failure I was 34 I was the worst case that the Prince of Wales hospital in Australia had ever seen in terms of my blood levels and so on so I was very healthy and like what you were eating and everything like that? Yes and no, I thought I was. I was a seductive sugar eater.

So I was eating so-called healthy sugar. And so that obviously precipitated this journey to try to improve my health. So that's how that all happened. And I gradually did heal myself. And then the business grew and dot, dot, dot, many years later with 25 staff, I reached this point. And I don't know how familiar you are with this story. I write about it in this latest book. A couple of years

ago, I sold everything off and shut everything down and gave everything to charity. So I gave all of my possessions and everything. And I've done this many times over where I basically live out of, for instance, the writing of my most recent book, This One Wild and Precious Life. I lived out of one carry-on bag, 15 kilos for three years, and I hike around the world in the footsteps of philosophers and poets and scientists to try to find a through line through the climate crisis and everything that's going on. So yeah, that's sort of the short version of everything that sort of has gone on for my career.

What made you make that decision to go off on those journeys and give everything away and just be completely unattached? Yeah, well, there's a particular set of events. So when I built up the business, I Quit Sugar and it was really starting to gain momentum and it became a digital program with staff and an office. And I was living on the road still. I was living around the world with my backpack on and off. And I lived that way for 10 years. For three years, I was very concentrated while I wrote this one wild and precious life. But my accountant sat down with me and he said, right, Sarah, what are your goals, your financial goals? And I'm like, I don't do financial goals. I don't care. And he said, no, no, come on, just help me out here. Where do you want to be at in five years time? Make something up. And he had

a whiteboard with texters and everything. And I said, all right, in five years, I want to be at a stage where I've earned enough money to be able to live on the minimum wage till I'm, let's say, 94. And he said, okay, and what would you do at the five-year mark if that happened? I went, oh, well, I would give everything else away. Anything I earn on top of that, I'll just give it all away to charity so that I'm free to do projects which help humanity rather than just keep me on a treadmill. He said, okay, well, let's make that your financial goal. Anyway.

He must have been like, this is the first time anyone has come to me. He was. And it became a talking point. okay, well, let's make that your financial goal. Anyway. He must have been like, this is the first time anyone has come to me. And it became a talking point. Like he's an accountant as part of a big firm that looks after media people, right, in Australia. And so it became a talking point. Like there's this mad woman who's, you know. Super successful.

Yeah. Anyway, five years to the week, he emails me and says, Sarah, you've hit your goal. I'm like, what goal? And he said, you know, the five-year mark. And I'm like what goal and he said you know the five year mark and I went oh and he said so what do we do now I said oh we shut down the business and I give everything away now it took a little over a year to do that because there's all these things you've got to do but that's essentially what I did and it was to remain I suppose

authentic to where I was at when I made that commitment, which was in a space where I'd almost died. I came across this abundance and I'd made a commitment when I was very suicidal as well at this time because I'd lost everything. Yeah, when I was sick, I'd lost everything. I couldn't walk for a year. I couldn't work. My hair fell out.

I put on all this weight. I, you know, I'd gone from being an editor of a big magazine and sort of going to red carpet events to unable to operate and living on my own and in isolation. And so at a certain juncture, I decided to live. And I write about this in another book, First We Make the Beast Beautiful, which is about anxiety and sort of a philosophical reframing of anxiety. When I decided to live, I went, right, I don't have to stay on the conveyor belt. I can actually choose to live life as I feel it should be lived with just the clothes on my back. And that's the commitment I made.

And I said to myself, I am going to have to put stakes in the ground to ensure I live that way because it's very easy to get sucked back into the system. Yeah. And so one of those things was to ensure that I don't live to the edicts and the mores of money. And so that was the commitment I made in line with that. And so that's why I stuck to the commitment and I continue to stick to that commitment. How did that feel after those five years? Because obviously a lot changes in five years. And I think it's such a beautiful, inspiring story that you made that commitment and that did that feel after those five years because obviously a lot changes in five years and I think it's such a beautiful inspiring story that you made that commitment and that you stuck to it because like you say people get into things for the best of intentions and then it builds it becomes this business it becomes this empire and then it's suddenly there are all these other people around that have different motivations and it then becomes something that it never intended to be.

And it's really hard, I think, for people to kind of do anything different. Yeah, I suppose I've always felt, I've always lived to those ideals. You know, obviously the way I grew up probably gave me some skills in living without an attachment to stuff. skills in living without an attachment to stuff. But I'd also learned that our attachment to things, consumption, et cetera, was very tied up with anxiety, dissatisfaction, loneliness, and all of that kind of thing. And I'd learned over the years that we know the studies, we hear all the studies about the hedonistic treadmill and we listen to it, right? But none of us actually go, hey, let's get off the treadmill, right? And so I became very pragmatic.

And it was partly because I'd come close to death and it really gave me a jolt, you know? So much of what we do when we're caught up in this capitalist cycle makes us so miserable, you know? And I really got the opportunity to stand back and go, this makes no sense. And I break it all down. And there's nothing like writing a book about this stuff to get you very conscious of the things that you've always felt to be inherently intuitively true. Yeah, so it's never been a sacrifice for me. Basically, when you live this way, it begets more of it.

So when you don't shop and you discover the freedom of not having to make those decisions, because the decision-making part of the brain is intertwined with the anxious part of the brain. So when you're making just too many decisions, you get anxious. When you're anxious, you find it very hard to make decisions, right? So if you want to actually reduce a huge amount of anxiety in your life, don't go to a shopping mall. That basically cuts out so much. And most panic attacks happen in shopping malls and you can see why, right? So I find that if I don't shop, it actually begets more non-shopping and creates this huge amount of freedom and release, right? Space.

Space. Space, like it's just, that's not for me. I don't do that. I walk around here in London and there's all these shops and everything. I'm like, I don't do that. That's just not what I do. Not interested. Can we talk about the chapter in your life where you wrote the book on anxiety and what that, because I think for, you know, I know a lot of our listeners and generally people at the moment struggling with anxiety, I feel more than ever. And you'll know whether that's true more than I do. But what was that process like writing that book? Oh, it's super hard. So I was writing at the same time I was doing the I Quit Sugar journey. How tied in was the quitting sugar to the anxiety?

Oh, very, very. Yeah. People sort of go, you went from sugar to anxiety. I'm like, yeah, that makes perfect sense to me. But the way that sugar, you know, interacts with our endocrinal system is very intertwined with the anxiety mechanism etc etc but it took me almost seven years to write that book but I interviewed literally hundreds if not close to over a thousand experts and I went around the world to do that so I interviewed His Holiness the Dalai Lama three times, Brene Brown. I hung out with Oprah's life coach and she mentally bent a spoon like freaky shit. Yeah. In front of me. I still don't know how that happened. I don't get it. But yeah, when I write a book, it's a massive journey. Did you know the book was going to be around anxiety? Did you know?

Yes. Yeah. Because I've got bipolar and I've got obsessive compulsive disorder and I've grappled with it all my life. And for anyone who has been medicated from a young age, you are always on a journey to work out, am I a problem? Is this a problem or is there beauty to this? Hence the title of the book. So I went around the world to basically investigate how creativity and anxiety is intertwined and how the greatest inventions, the greatest progress that's been made for humans has come about from people who have had to grapple with anxiety. And so I twist things around. And so if we could see it, this beast as a beautiful thing, then we can actually use it not only to survive, but to thrive. And it's only since 1980 that anxiety has been considered a disorder. So it entered the DSM, which informs the UK's mental health policies. It's a big sort of

technical textbook that psychiatrists use to diagnose mental health conditions. Anxiety only entered the DSM in 1980. And what do you know, it was within six months of the first anti-anxiety medication being invented. So anyway, I'm not anti-medication at all. And in fact, I get all the big mental health organizations around the world to endorse the book and make sure it's a responsible book in line with medical practices. So I did that in the US, Australia and the UK. But the anxious journey, you mentioned that people are more anxious than ever before. There's a few things going on there. First of all, there's a lot of evidence to suggest that our culture has lost the ability to work with and

in and around anxiety. So we often get anxious about being anxious and then we get anxious about being anxious about being anxious and we go down this spiral right and I think that's what contemporary anxiety is for most people today is this sense we're not meant to be anxious right and so we've medicalized it and we've stigmatized it to a point where we've lost our resilience around sitting in the shit of it all discomfort exactly so there's that piece there's also the piece in and around I think loneliness and the disconnection and so that's what I explore in what is almost a part two to that book so this one wild and precious life really is about the disconnect we feel and I opened the book by talking about loneliness and initially it was going to be a book about

loneliness but it morphed into this sort of discussion about how disconnected we've become from life. And how interconnected all the things in the book are. Yeah. Which seem like individually big themes that aren't interconnected. Yeah, and I find the simple path through it all because people are just going, I don't know where to start with all of this.

I feel disempowered and so overwhelmed and anxious because it's real. I think everybody knows the climate is shifting and it's becoming perilous, right? But people go, well, what's my little recycling habit going to do? It's not going to make a difference. And so people then put the duvet over their head and hope it all just goes away. And that's a really natural response. It's a very natural response. So anyone who's listening to this, who's feeling bad about their lack of action or their tendency to want to shut it all down, there's reasons for it, right? And it's evolutionarily proven to be, you know, something that is a very legitimate reaction. But what we've got to do, we don't want to stay in that space, right? And it creates...

Putting our head in the sand. got to do. We don't want to stay in that space, right? And it creates- Putting our head in the sand. Correct. And it creates what I call a moral aloneness. So the loneliness and the anxiety we feel today is not so much about like when we don't have enough contact with other people. We've got so much noise and contact and stuff going on. It's really because we're feeling a disconnect, a loneliness from ourselves and from the matrix of life, from the way that life is flowing. And so there's this incongruency, you know, where we're not matching up with the way we know life flows, you know, where we're kind of naturally supposed to be living. That's it. And so

that is just creating this dissonance for us. And so I think that's at the heart of a lot of our anxiety and it's at the heart of our reticence to engage in climate action, in saving our one wild and precious life, you know, together here on this planet. So we can keep buying things and we can keep trying to numb ourselves and we can keep addressing things from a whole range of angles. But essentially, you know, what I say in the book is we as humans are capable of the most wonderful, beautiful things when we love something hard enough. So, you know, you hear those stories of the 50 kilo mother who

can lift a car off her child, you know, when it's rolled over her kid. We hear stories of these sporting matches, right? Where the losing side is down a couple of points and the fans are starting to go home. Everyone's given up, the show's over. And out of nowhere, the losing side does this kind of kamikaze act. They throw all the rules and the tactics out the window and they come in with the home run or the goal or whatever it is. And there's probably way too many examples of that to really make sense other than to say that it's an indication of how humans operate and we all possess that unexpected we do yeah so when people lose hope i just point to that that we have this ability if we love something

hard enough if we know something to be true we will will fight for it. And so my book is really an exploration that tries to get people to love life and their congruency in the flow of nature and all of that again, because then we will fight for it. And the big thing that I sort of point out is that it's not about self-flagellating or sacrificing too much or sort of being miserable. It really is quite the opposite. Like my motto is, you know, this is not about restriction and horrible living.

It's about making the new way of living sexier than the status quo and that's when the shift will happen. And so I show different ways that living simply, living in congruency with nature, not being sucked in by the capitalist imperative actually makes us so happy. You mentioned if we know something to be true, as if that's an obvious thing for a lot of people. And I fear that maybe it's not. I think that a lot of people don't really know what is true anymore because we are bombarded by so much information.

Information that often has an ulterior motive and like you say it creates this sort of dichotomy where we're like we're being told one thing we might innately know another but those two things are in conflict with each other and i think that like you said creates this anxiety where you have an inner knowing but the systems that govern you are telling you something yeah different and it's interesting isn't it when our our reaction when that happens we slip into the system yeah right we just go shopping and we buy into that imperative of keeping the system going well i think it's more terrifying or the idea of it feels more terrifying probably than the reality to pierce that bubble,

if you know what I mean. Totally, because what's the alternative? Because we haven't been presented with sexier visions of the alternative. So yeah, it's interesting. But I think that most people, if you sit down with them, as I do, and I did with big focus groups when I was writing the book, but also I've traveled the world now. groups when I was writing the book, but also I've traveled the world now. Most people understand the insanity of thinking that we can continue to consume infinitely on a finite planet. It doesn't

add up. Nobody is stupid enough to think that we can just keep, keep, keep going, right? We basically at the moment are consuming the equivalent of seven planet Earths. How long do we think that can actually hold up for? And so when I say we know the truth, we know what's going on, I think most people know that. They know that it can't stack up and that this is unsustainable. Leave aside sustainability as an environmental word. I mean, it just can't hold. And it's not holding. We're all living on the planet today and we can see what's happening. And climate change isn't so

much about change and a warming of the planet. And I think this is what happens in the UK because, you know, a slight warming in temperatures, particularly in summer is greeted as a great thing. There's not as much engagement in the issue as it is, say, for instance, in Australia and parts of the States and parts of Southern Europe. But really what we need to do is see that this is not about climate change. Remember, these words were very much formulated by governments

in the 1980s and 90s to get us a little bit numb to what was going on. Really what's happening? Well, there was, I think some of you might have listened to or seen the movie called Vice. It actually features the way that the wording, whether it was climate change or climate this or whatever, was workshopped such that the wording that makes us feel less threatened

was the wording that was used. So it was, you know, it's micromanaged. Yeah, I think the word is climate collapse. That's what's happening. So it's not going to be about just a warming in certain places. We're talking about sort of this climate wobbliness and that's what we're seeing. So in the UK, it'll be flooding, it'll be a whole range of things

and it'll be food insecurity, which I think since Brexit, everyone's got a little bit of an indication of what that could look like. We've got topsoil that will probably last 20 years. We've got enough fossil fuels to last about 40 years before it becomes too expensive to extract. These things are running out and nowhere on the planet is going to be immune. So it's not about climate warming. That's obviously a big part of it. But how we're going to experience it is in all kinds of ways. And we're seeing it.

Floods. Yeah, because we're exploiting. Typhoons, hurricanes, you know, all kinds of wobbliness. When you say topsoil will last about, do you say 20 years? Yeah, there's about 20 years worth what do you mean by farming capacity because of the way that we are farming yeah it's a very unsustainable way of going about food production it's we've raped and pillaged the land and it's exhausted and it can no longer produce viable food to feed the planet so food insecurity is already really high and it's going

to increase. And it's going to increase in countries like Australia, the UK. UK will be very, very vulnerable because it relies on imports so heavily. So we're not going to die from being burnt to a crisp from heat exhaustion. That's not going to be what is going to be the problem going forward. It's going to be mass civil unrest as a result of food scarcity, as a result of the haves and the have-nots. It's going to be a result of houses that can't be insured. So there's already huge parts of Australia, the US, also the UK, where homes can't be insured. The insurance policies are too high. They're higher than the value of the house because they're in such volatile areas. I think the UK is losing 40%

of its coastline to erosion. And of course, you know, this summer, the temperatures of the Atlantic have been many degrees at a point where in parts of the ocean, they've been at hot tub temperatures, higher than our bodily temperature where we can't even step in. Like these changes are happening faster than we anticipated. Now that sounds all doom and gloom. It is. And we're going to have to find a way to cope with this information. We know it's happening. I don't think there's many people out there that deny that the climate vibe is different. I think there are still people that do think that it's not human caused. The problem is, and they might say, well, this has happened before. Yes. And other animals were made extinct. We're talking about humans

this time. So whether you think it's human caused or not. It's kind of irrelevant. It's slightly irrelevant. Yeah. I mean, I think that when you're debating that, you're missing the point of taking action. Exactly. So, you know, I think David Suzuki, he said, we're in a car heading at 100 kilometres an hour to a brick wall and we're arguing who gets to sit in the front seat. Do you know what I mean?

Like, let's stop talking about blames and all of that kind of thing. We've now got to think about a way to live and a way that could actually save us. And also, you know, this exploitation of the earth. I feel that we've become so disconnected from Mother Earth in this way that it's this place that we feel like we own or we rent, you know what I mean? Rather than seeming like we're interconnected with it and its rhythms and its seasons. And so when people talk about it, I feel that it's viewed as if that's what's suffering. And whilst it is like, she'll be fine eventually.

Yeah. We're the ones that are toast. Totally. You're absolutely right. There's a wonderful George Carlin's comedy skit and I totally recommend people look it up. I've put the link in my book actually because it's a YouTube clip from the 1980s. He's a wonderful American comedian. Brilliant. One of the most brilliant standup comics who's ever lived. And he does a

skit about the climate crisis. And he thinks, I mean, I won't give it away. It's worth watching, but he makes that exact point. The environment, the planet will be fine. The planet has been fine without us, you know, for many, many years. And he says, we're like a flea. It will just flick off its back, right? When it's had enough of us. And yeah, it's the planet will be fine. We're fucked, quote unquote, from George Carlin. Like it's, it's humans that are going to be fucked and that's what we've got to wake up to. So, you know, that was another problem is using the word, the environment movement, right? That's what we all grew up with is the environment movement. It's going to be about koalas and trees suffering. It's us, you know, we are the sixth extinction

event and we need to wake up to that. I don't like it as being the case. I don't like being the person that talks about it, but the way I try to talk about it is to suggest that the solution isn't about doom and gloom. The solution is actually the very way we want to live regardless of whether things are falling apart. Like we should, that would make us happier. Exactly. Even if none of this. That's why we're lonely. We are lonely because we are removed from the way that we know we want to be living. Which is how? Which is essentially without being caught up in this, the treadmill, you know, the hamster wheel of consuming. We have been numbed into thinking that that is the way to live, that the economy, that capitalism, more, more, more is the only way. Yeah. And people don't recognize that there's another way. Because I guess that information-

It's all we've had. Yeah. It's all we've had. And there's been very vested interests. And there's nobody really to point at because it is a systemic thing. That makes it hard for the human brain to fathom. You know, we're always looking for someone to point a finger at. And in some ways, it actually makes it easier if we accept no one's to blame here.

All we need to do instead of putting our energy into blaming and worrying and thinking that there's doom and gloom is to just get off the treadmill. And we can either be shoved off it by climate collapse, or we can choose to get off it and actually learn how to live in a way that will make us most resilient and most able to adapt to the new world. Yeah. Cause I feel that, you know, there's the personal sovereignty element here that sometimes people recognize that they can do something and make a difference. But then sometimes people think, oh, well, I can't make a difference to this. This is a huge issue that's beyond me. So I'm just going to put my head in the sand. And I'm recycling and my neighbor's not. So why should I bother? Yeah. That kind of thing. Just kind of carry on. It's a huge, that is a huge

issue that I get presented with when I have these kinds of conversations. And, and what I say to that is that we know that governments and industry, big business needs to make the changes to really shift the dial. We know that, right? But that comes from consumerism. Correct. Behavior. Correct. So it's like, well, we can look at like, I i don't know the fast fashion industries and go oh they're to blame they're making money but it's because people are buying it yeah and if we shift our spending habits then they will have to do they'll have to make changes and we see that all the time right like in france they've done all kinds of policies They've got rid of flights where you can catch a train in less than two or three hours, I think it is. And they've converted Paris streets, 30% of Paris streets to cycling and pedestrian lanes.

And the city is really happy about it because it's actually reduced pollution, air quality, et cetera, way more than they expected. And people are seeing it. People are going, oh, my God, this is a better way to live. So these politicians and business, they are responding to what they see. So that's the power that we have. But I would also say you've got nothing to lose by shifting because the shift will move you to a place where you are happier because you're not caught up in this treadmill. You're also living in psychological congruence with life. Yeah. Cause I want to get into that because I feel that it's a far more powerful motivation. Yes, it is. I agree. Yeah.

You're actually going to look better, feel better, be happier, be calmer. Like that's the reality, right? So I'll rattle off a few examples if you like. So one of the big things that I write about, obviously, cause I hiked around the world to tell this story and it wasn't just because I felt like hiking for a bit and I love hiking and I've hiked all my life. It's also because these big philosophers and thinkers and poets and scientists that I study to find the big answers to what I'm writing about, they all hiked to get to the bottom of their thinking and the complexity of it all. But equally, there's been 42,000 studies that have been done that look at the way that walking in nature can fix all kinds of things.

So it dials down anxiety. It actually gets us more engaged in activation and being motivated. It's creative and all of this kind of thing. And in Japan and South Korea, their health policies incorporate walking in nature as a salve. So kids who have ADHD and behavioral problems are shipped out to forests in South Korea before they're put on to ADHD medication. And so a lot of science that shows that walking is actually a really simple way to cut through to a whole heap of things, anxiety problems, health issues, the environment. One of the most effective ways to make a difference is to not own a car. And when you walk, you have this domino effect essentially. So that would be one really great example. Another one would be, for instance, people often say, well, what should I be doing? People do want to

think that they're going to be turning the dial, even in their own small way. So people often ask me, what are the three things I can do that will actually make a difference from a carbon emissions point of view? The number one thing you can do, and it has so many kind of flow on effects, is reduce food waste. If we were to all halve food waste, it would be the equivalent of the world switching to, in terms of carbon emissions, it would save the same amount of emissions as if we all switched to solar and wind. If food waste was a nation, it would be the third biggest carbon emitter after the US and China. So we have that power. And I'm not talking about supermarkets or restaurants. This is consumer food waste only.

So the stuff that we buy that we don't eat or we cook it and we don't, we throw the leftovers in the bin rather than reusing it. So that's something that can become really empowering is when we actually engage in that kind of thing. And it becomes actually, I gamify it, you know, and I share kind of tricks and everything on social media. Can you share some of the tricks? Okay, let me see. So when I go to a cafe or a restaurant and everybody gets butter either

in a little dish or wrapped in foil and then they don't use it, I collect them all and take them home. I haven't bought butter in about five years. So I've got all these little things. And even to the extent where people have half used it, I'll still take it home and I'll use it for cooking, you know, that kind of thing if I'm worried about germs. Other things that you can do is don't peel things. A lot of the nutrients are in the peel itself. Yeah. Don't ever remove the skin from things like if you eat chicken and things like that, the enzymes that help you break down the food itself, therefore making it much easier to digest, but also less fattening contained in the skin. Ditto with milk and dairy products. And this was something that I talked

about when I had the I Quit Sugar program, is that the full fat version of things where you don't remove stuff is actually more nutritious, but also less so-called fattening. A lot of these practices, right, that can actually make a difference make sense from a whole range of points of view. It makes you healthy. It saves the planet. It will save you money. Even just walking, that's your exercise.

You don't have to join a gym. Yeah, I actually was watching, there's a new show out around Blue Zones and it was so fun. I worked on the Blue Zones program. Did you? Yeah. Just seeing that, I was like, wow, you know, the way they live so harmoniously with nature. And it's these very simple things, like you say, but just walking around the village, having that sense of community, gardening every day.

Observing the Sabbath. Yeah, but we're just so, in the West, we're so disconnected from so much of it. Dan and I worked a little on that probably 12 years ago when I was first starting out with I Quit Sugar. So I spent a lot of time in Ikaria, which is one of the blue zones, and also Sardinia. Yeah, those were the two that I watched. What was it like actually being there? Oh, wonderful.

Yeah, I mean, for me, Greece is a country where they live out these principles pretty closely and truthfully. And as a result, you know, I looked into the happiness habits and the anxiety levels of a lot of countries around the world and correlated it with a bunch of things, mostly in and around the way that they live closer to nature, but also develop resilience practices as part of their sort of, well, their cultural identity. And yeah, Greeks come out sort of, well, their cultural identity. And yeah, Greeks come out very, very highly. Interestingly, the Dutch, I don't know if you've ever heard of this kind of ritual called Dutch dropping.

It's like the scout movement. It's where they drop kids in the Dutch wilderness. Now, the Dutch wilderness is not going to be all that wild. It's not going to have mountain peaks and all this kind of thing. But anyway, and these kids, I think every kid in the Netherlands grows up with this and they've got to find their way home. They've got a weekend to find their way home. How old are they? I think these kids are pretty young, like Scouts ages, you know, sort of, I don't know, 10, 11, 12. So that's part of.

That would not happen in the UK. No, I know, exactly. I do think that in the UK it's got particularly bad and sort of mollycoddling well that's right so I read about this and it was a New York Times journalist who'd written about it and she had a similar response to you like what the hell and she went to the Netherlands and interviewed these parents and the parents were like oh that's fine they'll get home eventually it's good for for them, you know, kind of thing. Anyway, this is all about building resilience. And we used to have practices which were always, you know, very much about that. But we don't have them anymore, right?

Like it's all about individualism. And of course, money coddling is a result of that. So I went and looked it up and the Dutch children have the lowest, one of the lowest rates of childhood anxiety in the EU. And now it's just correlation, but it's an interesting one. So yes, I sort of, in terms of the Greeks, the Greeks and some parts of these various blue zones in the world where people live the longest, in case anyone's wondering what a blue zone is, it's got the most number of centenarians, people who live over the age of a hundred. The things that they get right are all the things that I'm talking about here. It's got the most number of centenarians, people who live over the age of 100. The things that they get right are all the things that I'm talking about here. It's about going back to fundamentals.

We've made a clusterfuck of everything. And it's because we keep force-fitting our human experience into a model that makes no sense, which is the more, more, more capitalist, infinite growth on a finite planet mentality. We've been conned into thinking that this is the way we're meant to live and it doesn't stack up on any measure. Do you think there's a big sort of campaign going on on some aspect that's like, oh, let's keep going in this direction, but create more things that allow us to keep going? Like green consumption. Yeah.

Of course. We've got to a point where the system requires us to keep spending, to keep the system going. So it's the system that doesn't want to die. Correct. And that's nobody's fault because we're all in the system. The point is it's going to come to a crash. And so do we want to choose how we're going to exit or do we want to be shoved off it?

And that's a separate consideration, but it's a very valid consideration. So I suppose that's the argument that I try to make is that we can actually choose a different way of living. And it's not necessarily totally radical or anything. You don't have to go out there and I don't know, suddenly join a commune or anything like that. There's just simple things. So walking, food waste, not going to the shops. People say to me, how do you live out of a 15 kilo bag for three years at a time? Like, what do you do? And I'm like, I don't go to the shops. That's it. That's it. Not that. Like, just don't. And I gamify it. Like, you know, I've got to buy a pair of,

a new pair of undies, right? So I generally have four pairs of underpants. You don't, and I gamify it. Like, you know, I've got to buy a pair of, a new pair of undies, right? So I generally have four pairs of underpants. You don't need more than that. And so I often go, oh, they're kind of getting a bit tatty. I should go to the shops and buy more underpants. And I leave it a week and then a month and then three months. And then I finally go, because of course, once you go to the shops, shopping begets more shopping, right?

So yeah, I gamify it. I find it kind of funny. I feel the freedom of it all. My weekends are free to go hiking, picnics, all this kind of thing. You realise you don't need it. You don't need it. That's what happens when you leave it a week, another week, and you actually start to dread the idea of going to the shops

rather than it being your default social activity. It doesn't take long to actually find the charm in it and to go oh my god I've discovered something that other people haven't caught on to yet like this is fun this is like a cool way to live people by even meeting you like oh okay this is really working for you do you know what I mean like it's a beautiful way of living it's very inspiring and then that has a sort of domino effect. So in my book, I tell the story, like I say, we've got to make the new way sexier than the status quo.

How do you make a story about the climate collapse sexy? I hiked around the world. So I share all these different hikes, including there's quite a number in the UK, but there's one that I do from St. Ives around to Penzance along the Pirate Trail. It's one of the best hikes I've done because you go pub to pub and you stay in these tiny little pubs and I had so many adventures along the way and just beautiful. How long did it take you? It was only five or six days. It's actually a really good one if you want to get a bunch of friends together and I give the details

in the book so you can go and find out the pub that I went to and all this and this theatre that I went. Dolphins were swimming theatre that I was, dolphins were swimming in the background. It's like ridiculous. Anyway, there was a woman who managed one of the pubs I was staying at and she, I arrived and she said to me when I arrived, where's your luggage? And I'm like, oh, this is just it. You know, this is what I've been living out of for three years. And she was like, what? Anyway, the story unfolded and she was asking me all these questions. She was probably about five years younger than me. And she was like, you're so lucky. And I said, oh, why is that? And she said, well, that you can afford to do this. And I said, but it's cheaper than paying rent. Like I don't pay any rent. I don't have a car. I don't get my nails

done. My costs are so low. What do you mean? And anyway, we drilled it down. It was really that she didn't feel she had permission to live this way. And I know a lot of people feel that, right? People think that they have to earn their freedom. Yes, that's a very good way of putting it. But then, like you say, they then get caught on this hedonic treadmill where actually it's further and further away. Correct. And not everybody's going to want to live like I do,

and I appreciate that. And in some ways I feel an obligation to live the way I do. Well, no, I don't really. I live this way because I want to and I'm lazy. I don't want to go shopping. I am always wanting to find ways to ensure that I don't go into that really horrible bipolar panic and unhappiness and dread and suicidal ideation that I've experienced throughout a lot of my life. So I've worked out the mindsets that work. And it doesn't like you say, it doesn't have to, it might not look exactly the same for everyone.

Correct. Everyone was really honest with themselves, like the way they're existing probably isn't working for them. Yeah. And I feel the sadness. I wander around the city here in London and I can see a lot of sadness and disconnect and a distance from joy. So yeah, I think I live this way and it's not for everyone, but there's ways that people can get closer to these things themselves. So you don't have to go hiking in nature. You don't have to go off to the other side of the world or on some big six day trek. The science shows that just 20 minutes walking around a park is enough to get

the same benefits, right? And even just the science that shows that the 20 minutes walking around a park is enough to get the same benefits, right? And even just the science that shows that the pace of walking goes at the same pace, it's perfect for discerning thought, you know, so we think clearly. And so one of the best things you can do is get rid of your car and walk everywhere. You'll get clear thinking, you'll get your exercise done, you'll get experiences of awe. And there's lots of science that shows how that happens when we're just outdoors a lot. You get your vitamin D, there's just this domino effect, as I say. Also, you can just simply not go to the shops. You can prioritize as per the blue zones, a Sabbath. I grew up when the shops were closed on a Sunday and there's

parts of the world that still operate that way. And as a result, what do you know, correlation, they live a long time. So there's a lot to be said for these practices and we don't have to shake up things too much. And we don't have to wait for society to change. You can choose to have a Sunday with no phones, no shopping, where you and the family go off on a picnic. That costs nothing. Walking costs nothing. Meditation costs nothing. Going out into nature costs nothing. We don't have to wait. You spoke about these philosophers and poets and everyone that you met during this journey. What were some of the discoveries from those thinkers? Okay, so a funny story. I traveled to Japan. I was actually on route somewhere else. And so I

stopped off in Japan. There was this world famous monk who had been referred to and followed, who is an expert in forest bathing or forest therapy, which has become a very big thing, particularly in the States, but also Japan, in South Korea as well. As I mentioned, forest bathing is part of the health policy in these countries. And there's parts of America as well that are adopting forest bathing as a legit thing. So anyway, I was off to find this monk who's this world expert on it and he's a mountain climber. So I eventually hike for three days to this remote place. I hike up and meet this dude. And I said, all right, so, and I have my notebook, forest bathing. And I give him the Japanese word. And he's like, I've never heard of it.

And I went, I just laughed my head off. I told him the story of how I'd traveled around the world. I said, you are cited in books as the world expert on this. And he goes, oh, is it this? And I'm like, yeah, that's pretty much. He says, oh, that's just what I do. Anyway, it was very, very funny. But this idea, he is part of this sort of religious sect, you know,

this stems from Buddhism where they climb mountains and it's, they practice it for resilience purposes, because when you develop resilience, you can actually conquer a whole range of different things in your life and also tend to moral formation as well, which is, you know, a very big part of what we're talking about here. So that was, I suppose, an interesting one. Yeah, I came across all kinds of characters, hiking, different people, random people, tragedies that walk from Penzance around to St. Ives, you know, this man who was cradling his dog and it was, he was about to go and put his dog down and he was crying. And I sat with him for a while hiking in Jordan and hanging out with his shepherd. Like I hiked across Wadi Rum

for five days and just slept in this, with his shepherd, like out under the stars. And he just led me around and funny things that he philosophies that he had for life. And yeah, so. That must have been incredible. Yeah, it was, it was, it was a. It was a very enjoyable book to write. At the same time, it was very, very heart-wrenching because I had to find a way to see what's happening in the world as something that was hopeful. What is your hope for this book?

My hope at a fundamental level is to help people feel less lonely with these thoughts, these fears, these doubts that they're having. So part of the book was written during the climate, you know, sorry, the COVID lockdowns. And so it also incorporates a lot of stuff around that, around race stuff, everything that's going on in the world. During that time where I was living, you know, we could do a walk for, you know, five kilometer radius or something. And I saw these graffiti posters and it said, Daddy, what did you do to fight climate change? And you immediately know what that's referring to, right?

Down the track, if we're parents and our kid comes to us and things are really bad and they ask us, what did we do? Did we do everything to save things? What did we do? Did we do everything to save things? It would break my heart if I wasn't able to encourage or inspire as many people as I can, anyone that comes into my orbit to do everything they can so that when their child comes and asks them that question in maybe five, 10 years, they can have an answer that's adequate, that it will help them to do everything they can to save this one wild and precious life.

Because it is wild and it can be wilder and more fun and more beautiful. And it's definitely precious. And is there any final sort of piece that you'd like to mention for our audience listening that might have felt a bit fearful about some of these things that we're touching on today or overwhelmed, like you say, want to just put their head in the sand? Yeah. Well, what I would say to that is that the studies show and there's a really big um sort of movement in around climate anxiety it's a legit thing right and it's it's a very natural reaction to go into overwhelm

you know it's our brain that's just what our brain does when it can't fight or flee it goes into a freeze mode and what gets us out of that freeze mode? Because a freeze mode is a very dangerous place to stay in. You know, if you think of a deer being chased by a tiger, right? It can't fight it, eventually can't flee it. So it will often do a collapse response, a freeze response. And it does that so that the tiger chills out, goes, I'll go and get the cubs. We'll come back and have dinner on this deer or whatever. It gives the deer one last chance to save itself. But to save itself, it must jerk itself back online and bolt. We as humans go into the overwhelm, we freeze, but we don't come out of it. And so one of the most powerful things we can do is to actually jolt ourselves into activation.

And what they've found is that if you have climate overwhelm, if you engage in climate groups, in whatever it might be, getting your neighbourhood to recycle better, it is actually the best salve for that overwhelm that you're feeling. And I can vouch for that. My anxiety is at the lowest since I've got fully online with climate activism. And climate activism doesn't have to be out there with extinction rebellion.

It's about just not shutting yourself down, engaging in the news, reading about it, facing it, and doing everything you can. And everything you can is gonna be different for everyone. Thank you so much, Sarah, for joining me today. I've absolutely loved this conversation. Oh, my pleasure. I enjoy talking about it because. Oh, my pleasure. I enjoy talking

about it because it's thrilling for me. Yeah, I can tell. Thank you. One of the things that really struck me from this conversation was how unique Sarah is in recognizing the hedonic treadmill which I think many of us do but actually having the courage to get off it in the midst of building a hugely successful business and sticking to her guns and like I said in the episode you know it's whilst we can start out with the best of intention we can get caught up in the system and become part of it and I loved that she didn't that she said you know I want to shut down the business and this is what I'm going to do and has gone on to live this very I guess what comes across to me from Sarah is this you know value of freedom and that

she lives a life according to the beat of her own drum and this very minimalist approach which I think we could all incorporate more of and whilst it might be quite an extreme version of it I hope some of the takeaways from this conversation you can incorporate into your own life and see where you can sort of scale back and scale down because I think we realize that these things this gluttony of more more more doesn't actually make anyone happy so just scaling back a little bit and creating more space and you know hopefully more joy and also the takeaways around climate change like this is a huge huge thing that we all need to be addressing individually and collectively and I think Sarah is making amazing steps in helping us

and educating us so that we can take action so I hope you found this episode inspiring if you did please share it with a friend who might find it useful or share us on instagram because i always love hearing your feedback around episodes that resonate with you guys so as always thank you for listening and remember you are not alone goodbye