Saturn Returns with Caggie - 9.11 Exploring Soulful Creativity with Meera Lee Patel

Episode Date: April 29, 2024

Join us on this special episode of Saturn Returns, where we delve into the world of self-exploration and creativity with the talented Meera Lee Patel. An acclaimed author and artist, Meera is celebrated for her beautifully illustrated books and journals that encourage mindfulness, self-reflection, and personal growth. In this intimate conversation, Meera will share her journey of self-discovery and how her art has become a medium for exploring the inner self. We'll discuss her latest works, the inspirations behind her captivating illustrations, and how she uses creativity as a tool for healing and understanding. Together we gain an insight into Meera's unique process and how she incorporates elements of mindfulness and creativity into her own life. Whether you're an artist, a dreamer, or anyone in between, this episode is a heartfelt invitation to connect with yourself on a deeper level and ignite your own creative spark. Tune in to discover how Meera Lee Patel's work can inspire your personal journey and help you embrace the beauty of becoming who you are. --- Subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and receive more empowering insights and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. I don't think being grateful is keeping yourself in the same place just for the sake of being grateful. That's not what gratitude is. Gratitude is acknowledging what you have and that you value it and that you will do your best for me to help others but then also figuring out what your next steps are and how to unstick yourself and how to find your way back to you. Today I sit down with a lovely Meera Lee Patel who is a self-taught artist, writer and internationally recognized best-selling author. I love this conversation because we got to talk about creativity which is such an important aspect of my being and my life right now and something that

I'm really trying to lean further into but also what came through in this conversation was the importance of setting your own boundaries and prioritizing creativity and rest and learning to say no to things and it was a really calming episode for me in conversation so I hope that you guys enjoy it. Mira, welcome to the Saturn Returns podcast. For those that aren't familiar with your work, a little bit about you, who you are and what you do. Sure. So I'm Mira Lee Patel. I am an author and illustrator and I write books for a living. And all of my work encourages people to really look inside themselves for the answers of the questions that plague them, namely, who are they? What do they want

to do with their time? What kind of community do they want to surround themselves with? And how to get unstuck if you feel like you're in a place in life where you feel stuck or where you don't know what you want from yourself or the world, um, my work tries to help you figure that out. Um, everything you just said is basically everyone everyone that listens to this podcast will be struggling with one if not all of those things you just mentioned and that's kind of why I started the whole thing because I was having those questions and those thoughts and those feelings is that why you started to do the work that you do absolutely mean, I think the reason why my work connects with other people is because it is rooted in honesty and it is, um, I am able to keep it rooted in honesty because each

book is tackling something that I am grappling with at the moment. So my latest journal, Go Your Own Way is about building self-confidence. And I started writing it shortly after becoming a mother. I was a first-time mom and I was completely shattered. I did not know who I was. I didn't like the person I saw in the mirror. I have never been a innately nurturing maternal type so all of a sudden I had stepped into this role that I thought that I wanted and I didn't know how to do it and I felt very insecure of course but also just I felt like an imposter and I felt really, really scared. You know, how I have two daughters, two now, and how was I going to raise my two young girls to be confident, resilient women

when I myself was breaking down in front of them and could not even begin to look at myself and say, I like who you are. And that's where that work came from. And all my previous books have come from a place where I needed to figure something out. And the writing process is how I figured it out. And then I shared it with the world. With kind of stepping into motherhood, if you don't mind me asking, was, you said you weren't that maternal I I don't have children but I often feel that I'm not that maternal and I've often looked at other people's children and thought no thank you so I'm off but I'm thinking about it a lot because it's in my it's in my sort of sphere because I'm 34 and it's you know everyone's like time's ticking and all that stuff.

So in terms of your journey evolving into that, to where you are now, you said that you felt you lacked in confidence. Was that because you didn't feel equipped with the tools for motherhood or would you be able to talk about really what that was like, that sort of transition? Sure um I wouldn't say I was equipped with the tools you know I don't have any education in terms of teaching others I don't you know I rely on my sister a lot who is also a teacher and a mother and so I would say that she has the background education to help support her when emotions get in the way. So when her emotions and her being connected, having birthed these children is starting to cloud her judgment, she has that education of

the teaching background of knowing the psychology, knowing the developmental milestones, knowing different techniques to try to communicate with children. She can fall back on that. I spend a lot of time educating myself now so that I can feel confident when I'm in a situation with my child where I don't know what to do. So I would say that's one. And two, prior to having children, I was very independent. I was very type A. I love a good schedule, love a good plan, love a good routine, thrive in a routine. And all of that has completely and utterly combusted. I cannot make a plan to save my life. And if I do, we're not going to be able to follow it because the kid is going to be the kid and it's just not going to work out. And if I do, we're not going to be able to follow it because the kid is going to be the kid and it's, it's just not going to work out. And I have been forced to become flexible in ways that make me feel very uncomfortable and uncertain. So I would say that the biggest,

um, the biggest challenge for me and for a lot of parents, I think, is that when you're raising a child, you are forced to confront a lot of your own baggage and a lot of the things you have not dealt with because they will come up in those moments of agitation. And when you have no sleep, no energy, somebody is always saying mama, mama, mama, somebody always needs something from you. All of that unresolved stuff is going to come up and you're going to look at yourself and you're going to say, who am I? And why did I react that way? And why do I think it's okay to react that way? And in my case, do I like myself?

Is this the person I want to be? Is this the type of mother? Mother, sure. But bottom line, is this the type of person I want to be? And it was a reckoning and it still is. And it's going to be, you know, I don't think it's a road that has an end I don't think any of this work you know any of the things that you talk about on the show any of the things that any of us are dealing with in real life I don't think there's really an end goal

you just have to be committed to the practice and also all the challenges that come your way So all the challenges that come your way are going to help you grow. But obviously at the time, I think we like to romanticize this idea. Because I mean, I don't have children, so I can only imagine how triggering they must be. But I can only liken it to, you know, a relationship that sounds in a similar way sets you off or certain and you will be drawn towards certain people because they reveal or hold a light up to the parts of you that need healing that you cannot see and I have heard many times that children are like that tenfold where you're just every second like oh my god I didn't know I needed to to deal with that and the lessons that come into your life so I guess it's about

I don't know reframing it a little yeah reframing it learning more about yourself giving yourself grace giving your kids grace you you're all figuring it out. You've all been thrust together all of a sudden. And I look at, I have a three-year-old and a nine-month-old, and I look at the three-year-old all the time. And I so badly want to know her. That's all I want. I want to know her. How does she think? How does she feel? How does she feel about herself? How does she feel about me? And she doesn't have the language yet to tell me. And all I want is to know her. And I have to accept that it's going to be a long time. And as soon as I feel like, oh, maybe I understand her a little bit, she's going to change the way I'm still changing and the way she'll always be changing. And it's going to be, you know, it's going to be forever. This, this, this tugging and pulling and pushing

and being okay with that is, is tricky. And of all the things that you've written about, because it's obviously you use these moments of transition and and inject it into your work what have been the biggest changes that you've gone through as a person you mean that's fine that's found itself into my work mm-hmm uh the biggest change I think the catalyst uh for my career and all the work that I do was when I decided to leave my job. I had a full-time job after college and I worked at it for eight years while building my freelance career. And I left it finally in 2017. And that was a big, big, big deal for me. How old were you? and that was a big big big deal for me how old were you I was 30 I was about to be 30 so I was 29 right on your Saturn return yeah yeah sounds about right it was a I had a book I had a contract to

write a book about fear and I told told myself, you know, relative to the question you just asked me, how can I write a book that's going to connect with other people about facing and confronting their fears when I still live in the shadow of all of mine. So I was forced to do the things that I wasn't afraid of in order to write an authentic work. So I quit my job. I sublet my apartment in Brooklyn and I had always been afraid of traveling alone for lots of reasons, but mainly I'm a small woman and it can be really dangerous in this country for lots of reasons. So I packed a backpack and I decided to travel alone

for the rest of the year throughout the country. And I am a very introverted, shy person. I'm a creature of comfort. And this, I knew confronting all of the things that I'm afraid of, I had to lead somewhere. And so I went through the States and also a little bit of Canada, and I stayed for a couple of weeks, a month in different cities. I reached out to people that

I had followed on Instagram, other artists. They said, can I work out of your studio? And what I saw was when I left the place that I had always known, I was free to become somebody else because nobody that I was meeting knew me. They didn't know my history. They didn't know who I was. And I was kind of able to step into this person that I had always wanted to be, that I had grown into, but that I was too afraid to become because somebody that I knew would look at me and say, that's not who you are. I know who you are. You're not this new person. And so I was able to do that. And it was, it was an incredible year. I finally left my job when I was traveling through the country. I met my husband, my now husband, um, on our first date and I ended up that's what brought me to Nashville I

moved to Nashville after I finished traveling I wrote two books I just found this confidence and reliance on myself um and the belief that I could if I gave my chance if I gave myself a chance likely I could do whatever it was that I wanted for my life. And did you, when you went on that journey and started traveling, did you simply want to face the fear or did you know that that was a necessary experience for you to step into the person that you wanted to become? I wanted to stop feeling afraid in every moment. I always felt afraid. I always felt anxiety. I always felt I could feel myself limiting my life because I was choosing to be afraid.

And that's all I wanted was to start feeling that way. What does it feel like to wake up and feel curious or excited or even just calm, just not afraid? That's all. That was my simple goal. Because, you know, my mom bought me your book, My friend fear when I was when I was 29. So it was when I was, you know, about to go through my Saturn return and went through this kind of crazy shift. And similar to you, I, I had a big career pivot and faced a lot of fears. But as I talk to you now, there's definitely, I feel that I am quite driven, sadly, by fear still. I think a lot of people are without realizing it's become the normal in many ways. And we're programmed to be, I guess, in the way that we've evolved, we're programmed to be on the lookout

for where there's danger, but that gets misdirected. And we sort of think that there's danger in stepping into any kind of unknown, even though that's where the possibilities and our potential lie. And one thing about me, I'm a very creative person. I was actually thinking last night, probably because I knew I was having this conversation and you're a creative person. If people would ask me what I do and who I am, who I really am is not, I wouldn't say it's what I do right now. I am in terms of hope this makes sense but instinctively or innately I am I consider myself a poet because that's what I've always loved to do from a very young age I would write just so many poems but I never saw that as a career it never even occurred to me to share anything it was always very private and interestingly now I find myself at another crossroads where I want to lean further into my

creativity but it's interesting how when we start pursuing a certain career we almost like create boxes for ourselves that even if it's seemingly seemingly successful they can restrict us or or narrow things in some way so I'm um I'm interested to hear how you got over the fear if there was one about being a full-time creative you know know, well, The Catalyst was the book, you know, I had, I am very responsible. I will say I was raised to be very responsible, very pragmatic. I'm the child of immigrants. I was really taught not to squander the chance at financial stability for my creativity. And so how I went about building a business that could sustain me was for, it was very mathematical. It was very pragmatic. There was nothing romantic about it. The part that I guess brings a little bit of shame to me when I think about it now is

how little I believed in myself and how little I still sometimes do. Because even when I had built the business, the creative business to a place where it could sustain me, you know, for a year or two, who can really project that far into the future, right? You work for yourself, like it's up and down, but I had some sort of cushion and I had the full-time job, but I will say creatively speaking, I have never known an end to that fear. Because like you said, once you rely on your creativity for your living, all of a sudden, what seemed wide open narrows very quickly. And at least for me, I was making all of this work and thinking, okay, this is working.

My audience resonates with that. So I can't go to all of these other places because probably nobody will like it and nobody will connect with it. And who am I as an artist if people don't like my work? And is art still worth making if nobody's seeing it or if it's not making me money or if it's not bringing me exposure? And that is a place where I lived for a lot of years, I will say, until my daughter, my oldest, was, oh, three months old. And my husband, I had always dreamed of getting my MFA in illustration because I'm a self-taught artist and for whatever reason I decided to adopt I believe that oh I probably wasn't a real artist because I didn't have any formal education I got my MFA I would have that badge. And all of a sudden I would feel like a real artist.

So I had been dreaming about this program and just kind of thinking out loud about it. And when my daughter was three months old, my husband said, Hey, the deadline for that is coming up. Are you going to apply? And I was, I said, no, I'm not going to apply. We've got three months old. Like I don't haven't slept in months. I don't, how are, how am I going to go to apply. We have a three month old. Like I don't, I haven't slept in months. I don't, how are, how am I going to go to grad school? And he's like, well, we'll figure it out. Like, why don't you just apply and we'll see. And I got in and I was also awarded a fellowship to attend. And it wasn't an opportunity that I, it felt very once in a lifetime and we accepted and that moved us from Nashville to St. Louis. And right before my daughter turned one, I started school. And so I went to school the first year, you know, just running to school, going to class, coming home, taking care of the

baby. We were still in COVID. So we didn't have childcare. It was just me and my husband juggling it with our jobs. And I was still working also. And then the second year I was pregnant with my second daughter. So I was pregnant and going to school and I gave birth to her a couple weeks before graduating. gave birth to her a couple weeks before graduating, and then I went back to do my defense and my final exhibit and all of that. And all of this is to say that at this time, when I was becoming a mom and then a new mom and then pregnant with my second child, I was also dealing with my kind of creative identity shift. I didn't know who I was as a person. And I also felt deeply dissatisfied by the work I was making.

And it wasn't that the work I was making wasn't fulfilling. It's that all the parts of me that I had put in the closet, like you're saying, putting your poet self in the closet and saying, you're not allowed to come out. And depressed that I was not allowing the full multifaceted being of who I was. To be expressed. Yeah, to be expressed to live. And so grad school for me was kind of two years of forcing myself to say no to work that paid the bills or would have grown my audience or would have made me feel successful, that type of validation. And it was giving me permission to make absolute garbage work that nobody saw, nobody will ever see, nothing that will ever pay the bills,

Work that nobody saw, nobody will ever see, nothing that will ever pay the bills, nothing that I feel good about. In order to get to a place where now I feel like maybe I'm starting to make something that feels like me. And I think it's very interesting you brought up poetry because I wouldn't say that I'm a poet, but I would say that it is an art form that I feel so connected to in that poems have offered me friendship and solace and healing when nothing else has. And I have started a practice of writing a poem every day. It doesn't go anywhere. I'm probably, I'm never gonna, I don't have a dream of having published poetry or anything, but I wanted to tell you that just doing it, doing something that I've always wanted to do,

but I've always told myself I'm not good enough or you don't have a good reason for doing this or if it's not elevating your career, it'm not good enough, or you don't have a good reason for doing this, or if it's not elevating your career, it's not worth it. I feel so free. I feel so happy. I feel like something has unlocked that is finding its way into different parts of my life because I have given myself permission to be this part of me. Yeah I mean everything you're saying resonates so much because also as well as poetry and for many years I was pursuing this was music so like poetry songwriting for me it's kind of all one of the same

and it was hard to make as you know it's hard to make a career out of many creative things. I think that a lot of people listening have an artist trapped in the closet as well, because we're told, oh, if it's not how we build a career or make money, then it should be discarded, sadly. But I was told, I wanted to share this was taught I went to see a friend from the music industry a few probably like six months ago seven months ago and secretly I have been working on a music project but I have been taking a really long time and putting it together and putting it out and procrastinating and blah blah blah and we can get into all of those things but I went to see him to kind of get some advice and he said to me he didn't know that I wanted to do a music project again he thought I was just doing Saturn Returns

and that was going very well and he was like okay well imagine you have two shops. One of them is a pancake shop. One of them is a leather goods shop. I was like, okay. And he said, the pancake shop is kicking. Everyone wants those pancakes. They're all coming. There's a queue around the corner thriving. I was like, okay. And he said, the leather goods shop, no one wants to come to there is nobody at the door it is not happening and I was like where are we going with this he's like the pancake shop is saturn returns and the leather goods shop is the music and I was so offended but also I was like that's how people think isn't it it's well, you're doing one thing that's working. Why on earth would you pull focus from that and start doing something that isn't happening?

And I feel like we're always like people, even if they mean well, they're constantly sort of dampening our dreams. And actually, you know, everything that you've said sounds like even though you're very successful as a creative person and have built a business and a career out of it, you still grapple with those limitations and then only reaching a point now where you finally feel like you have the authority to do what you want. Yeah, I think so. And I think it's tough because if you are a creative who is also making a living from your work, I think there's a lot of self-worth and identity that's all wrapped up and it's easy to lose you with the audience. I think that can be easy to do. And also, I think another thing we probably don't spend enough time considering is that we are always changing. So it is only natural that we would outgrow our own projects or our own business or what

we, you know, what I wanted to write about seven years ago is not what I need right now. So it's going to change. And I think giving ourselves permission and allowance to do so and to explore, explore, and also to consider, you know, it took me a really long time to build a creative career so if I want to pivot it'll probably take me a really long time to build this new direction but that doesn't mean it's not worth doing and then you mentioned a bit earlier about how you're a responsible person and clearly very disciplined and you sounds like quite early on you figured out the business component to to making this creative exploration sustainable would you be able to share more details on what that actually looked like because I think you know

for many creatives they're like I don't know how I could make this a business oh sure I think that a big part of it was accepting that part of the job of being an author and an illustrator is marketing it's not going to work if I'm just at my desk working work all day and to be honest I'm sure people you know if you were interested in building a creative career you've probably heard it before. It's the majority of your time is not, does not go to the making. It goes to the business part. And that's the sad, at least for me, it is a sad reality. Marketing, um, querying for work, pitching ideas, article ideas, illustration ideas, trying to get that work. I had a schedule where I would decide these are the things I'm working on. Like on Mondays, I do marketing, I do my Instagram, I do Twitter, I do outreach to get new jobs. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,

maybe I work on the projects that are on my plate. Friday, I was devoted to social media for a while to getting my work out there, building an audience, finding readers and other artists who would support my work and champion it and share it. So I think those strategies have helped me immensely. And then I will say it cannot be understated the impact of actually being out in the world. So I did, there's, I, there are in the UK, lots of craft fairs and the same here in the States. And I would set up a booth and I would meet people in real life out in the world, give out my business cards, let them have the opportunity to see my books and my art and purchase it in person. And some of those real life connections and relationships

have become some of my most loyal followers, people who have supported me from book to book to book, who show up when I'm doing an in-person book signing or a show. And those relationships, I will also say, feel very, it's a type of sustenance when the online marketing and social media can really wear on you and feel very disconnecting. Those in-person opportunities, they really keep you going and they remind you that everyone out on the internet is also a person. Here are some of them in real life. They also make art or they're a lover of art. They're a supporter. And those are the times where I really feel most connected to my work and my audience again. Were you at the beginning self-published? I was not self-published.

I've always worked with publishers. And what was that experience like? Yeah, kind of the process of trying to get your work published, really? Sure. So I will say I worked with a small publisher out of California who had contacted me and asked me to illustrate and write a book idea that they had. They said, we want to make this book. We think you could do it. What do you think? And I said, yes. And it was my first book opportunity.

And looking back now, it is not something I would do again because I want to always put my name to my ideas. And that is important to me now. But at the time, it was an opportunity and that book led to my next opportunity, which was Start Where You Are, was my first journal. And I published it with an imprint of Penguin Random House. And I do think doing that first book gave me credibility and started building my resume. So when I did reach out to an editor at Penguin, I was lucky enough to receive an offer. And that was the beginning of my book career.

And to fill in listeners who might say like, well, how did you reach out to an editor? And how did that all come about? I researched, everything is online. I researched how to put together a book proposal. And I did that on my own. And I was lucky in that I had a friend who was working with this editor and he passed on her name and I emailed with my proposal kind of like a cold cold call email and it happened to work out so I would say I did the research and making the proposal and then it was also a bit of luck in having that name and that contact and being able to reach out to somebody. And what would your advice be for those that are struggling to access the creative aspects

of themselves, whether it's that they are so ruled by fear, they procrastinate, they start a project and then just can't finish it. I mean, I'm speaking from my own experience I was like what would your advice be for me basically it would be the same advice that I would give to myself um people who are if you are struggling to reconnect with yourself creatively um honestly for me journaling always works because you are confronting yourself and you are giving yourself an opportunity to be honest. And I think that is probably the trickiest part for most of us is we don't even want to say what we feel or what our,

what we feel are our darkest thoughts. We don't even want to say them out loud. We don't want to make them real. And writing it down for me has always been incredibly freeing. And it has also been, um, I've always found that when I write something down, it's not as bad as how it felt inside my head. And then my second piece of advice for people who are struggling to connect with themselves creatively, which is how I felt after having my first child and kind of feeling disenchanted with what I was making garbage so if it is poetry for you just starting to write saying I know it's going to be bad I don't care that it's going to be bad and allowing yourself to believe that it's going to take you somewhere good eventually. Being patient with the process,

knowing that good work takes a long time, that it's supposed to take a long time. And unfortunately, the world we live in with social media and the internet, it convinces us that you should just be able to snap your fingers, put out amazing work just like that. And that's not the truth. That's not how it works. That's not how it's ever worked. That is a total facade. So be patient with yourself. Start making the work. Believe that one day you're going to look back and say, I cannot believe I did that. I cannot believe that I used to just make garbage paintings every day and now I made something I like. I cannot believe that I was writing terrible poems and they were so bad and I kept doing them

and I felt like a fool and now I have my first published poem. Ed Sheeran, I remember a documentary that he did and he described it as sort of creativity and his songwriting process is a really old tap and when you go to turn it on initially just crap comes out of it like dirty water but eventually eventually you know clean water comes out and it kind of gets going and I've always I've always thought that that was a good analogy because I think you're right we do live in a world where the expectation to just pump out this work all the time I feel like everything is speeding up and the demand and the expectation of what just what we're supposed to be doing and delivering on and how have you found social media as a medium for for your work and self-expression how have you found it be a help to you and where do you think it's a hindrance

I think it has been a huge help I would not have a career if it wasn't for social media namely Instagram um and I think that it is magical, really, that you can post something on the internet and somebody out in the world will eventually find it and connect with it. I think it is truly special. That being said, social media has had a huge negative effect on my self-esteem, on my mental health, and on the quality of the work I make, because it was very easy to get into that cycle we just mentioned of, I need to make something to post so I can keep up with the algorithm and I can grow the audience. And it is impossible to make, at least for me, to make a good painting, to make a good piece of writing every day. So the quality went down immensely because I was focusing on quantity

and I became really disenchanted. I felt really disconnected and I actually felt a little bit resentful. And I thought to myself, why? I worked so hard to get to a place where I could work for myself. Why am I making work that doesn't connect with me? Just to feed the algorithm. Just to feed the algorithm. And is my work ultimately in service of others yes but I cannot keep helping other people and connecting with them if I'm putting myself last so I kind of refocused and what I really missed was writing and so I have slowed down immensely on Instagram. And instead, like many other people, I have a newsletter and I write it for myself. And I hope that somebody will connect with it. And if they don't, at least I have connected with myself. And that very simple practice that I'm very committed to has completely regenerated me.

Is that almost in a way like a form of journaling that you share? Yes, absolutely. It is a form of journaling that I feel comfortable sharing. So I have a boundary, what I will post and share and what I won't. And my aim is still the same to connect with other people, to meet them where they are, to help them in their lives. But what felt selfish, which was putting myself first, I now see that that's the only way for me. Because again, it's coming back to that honesty. I'm writing something that I need and I hope it will help you and it's okay if it doesn't but when I was writing only for somebody else it wasn't as honest yeah because I think we can get especially as something grows and there's more people and there's more demand and you

you know you're afraid that you're gonna disappear so you are constantly trying to produce work it's interesting what you said about when you're doing something that ultimately the goal is to connect with people and to help them but as a consequence you're trying to give so much that you have nothing left to give yourself and you've put yourself at the bottom. And I think that that's something that can happen without us even realizing it, because naturally as well, people are going to want more from you. So if you're constantly giving, it can be really tough to then create those boundaries, because again, it's sort of seen as then selfish and then I think that we internalize that as like oh but I you know I'm what I'm doing is to help people so

I've got to keep going I've got to keep delivering I've got to keep you know engaging and all of that sort of stuff so it's it's interesting that you you know went on that journey of having to make that distinction. And would you said that you pulled back a lot from social media, but how did you reconnect with the essence of why you do what you do? I think I reconnected with myself by, you know, by putting myself first. So I write this newsletter for me. I write my newsletter is five things from each week that I want to remember a year from now. What do I want to remember about January 25th, a year from now? I write that I write down those things for myself. I send it out and I have been incredibly surprised by how many people find themselves in my same day to day. How many people are

experiencing the same emotions, the same conundrums, the same obstacles. They might look different, but they're essentially the same, you know, dealing with disappointment, dealing with frustration, dealing with people who need a lot from you when you don't have anything to give, dealing with putting yourself last, dealing with creative frustration or imposter syndrome or making a huge change and feeling uncertain or not good enough. They're all the same. We all are all people and we're all dealing with so many of the same obstacles. They just look a little bit different and we look a little bit different. And that's okay.

But in essence, we're the same. And I think that universality, that humanity, if I'm able to pinpoint that in my writing, then it's almost guaranteed that it will resonate with somebody else. So that is my goal, to do it me first, and then to find a connective thread for everybody else and to put that out there. And then as for social media, like Instagram and Twitter and those platforms that I felt I had to compete in, Twitter is a afterthought. I don't participate anymore. And that feels really good. It just wasn't doing anything for me. It was taking too much and not giving back enough. And Instagram, I post when I

feel that I have a piece of work that I want to share. And right now that looks like about once a month. Really? Yeah. And that went from every single day, a strict daily schedule. Oh, so you really pulled back. Yeah, I did. I'm only interested in- And how does that feel? It feels awesome. God, I bet it does. It feels awesome.

And it feels also, I feel confident that I will be able to find an audience and to make work and continue making a living. If I identify my values and uphold my boundaries to protect them, then I think I will always find a way. And my value, making good work, making work that I was proud of, that was diminished because I didn't have a boundary. And so I put a boundary on it. I cannot spend more time on social media than I do making work. I will never become a better artist. I will never become a better writer. And I have that boundary now. And I will tell you, it is a slow climb. It is much slower than if I was posting every single day and feeding the algorithm

and getting my posts boosted and all of that fewer eyes are on my work you know that's for sure fewer engagement yes but I'm making better work and I have faith that because the work is good it will find an audience so and most importantly are you happier I'm so much happier yeah yeah it worked I'm inspired because you know we all get caught in the sort of whether or not we are doing even if we are doing something we love we get caught on the sort of hedonic treadmill yeah and we're all kind of racing towards something. I don't know what. But I have death eventually. So it's like, wait, can we just all slow down? But it feels like because no one else is, you're scared too.

Yeah. Do you know what I mean? You're scared. You're like, oh, if I slow down, then I'll be left behind and forgotten. But you know, that fear is about somebody else. It's not about you. That fear, like nobody else is slowing down so I shouldn't you're you know you're putting your value and how you want to spend your time in your life essentially based on what somebody else is doing yeah that's

never going to bring you anywhere you want to go and I guess also in today's world every what we do and our sort of metrics of success are so intertwined into who we are yeah that we feel like if we do slow down or if something stops accelerating at the speed that it has been that people will view us as some kind of a failure and less than yeah and that we'll view ourselves that way yeah yeah that's the part that really hurts did you have to grapple with some of those feelings yeah I will say that is why it has it has taken me so long to pursue school to make a pivot in my work to um to write poems for myself myself, to do things that I've always wanted to do because I worried that nobody else would like them. Nobody else would support the work.

Then I wouldn't be able to make an income. Then I wouldn't be able to pay the bills. Then I can't take care of my kids. It's an easy spiral, right? And it all comes from scarcity mindset. And I will say one thing. I know we probably have to wrap up, but something that was, is very difficult for me is practicing gratitude without feeling guilty. So if I put that into this context of what we're talking about, it's, oh, I can't say no to this paying job, even though it does, it's not the work I want to do because I might never, I might never get this opportunity again, or somebody might not want to pay me for my art again.

And I should be so grateful that somebody is offering me this job. It's really ungrateful to not accept it. And on the other side is feeling guilty. I am so lucky that I am successful. How dare I think that I should be able to do something differently? Who cares if it's not making me happy? So many people would love to be in my shoes. No, I cannot throw it all away. That would be being ungrateful. So I have a lot of those mindsets, which are very toxic and that keep me from internal growth and external growth and satisfaction or happiness or joy or fulfillment, all of those things. And that is something that I'm working on disentangling. How can I be grateful? I am very lucky. I have worked hard

and I have had a lot of luck to allow me to make a career from writing and illustrating. from writing and illustrating. I acknowledge how lucky I am and I am really grateful, but I am miserable every day and I don't want to live that way. So I'm going to figure out how to make a change. I don't think being grateful is keeping yourself in the same place just for the sake of being grateful. That's not what gratitude is. Gratitude is acknowledging what you have and that you value it and that you will do your best for me to help others, but then also figuring out what your next steps are and how to unstick yourself and how to find your way back to you. I think that's so important. And as a final thing, what are your steps for finding your way back to yourself or your advice for people that are listening that

are thinking god that's exactly the internal dialogue that I'm experiencing yeah um it will it comes back to something I said earlier which is identifying your values and then constructing boundaries to protect those values and your values will change every year as you do. So it's worth doing this exercise over and over again. But I try to focus on three things. What are the most, the three most important things to me right now? So for me, it is learning how to be the type of mother I want to be, being present for my children and making work that makes me proud. So that means I have had to, in order to fulfill the first two, I'm home full time with my youngest right now, my nine month old, which means I've taken a huge step back from work, which means I have had to say

I'm only going to focus on books. I am not doing products anymore. I'm not doing commissions. I'm not doing, I'm not speaking on panels. I'm not traveling for conferences. I'm only writing and drawing books. That's all. I barely have time for that, but that is my commitment. And for the making the work I want to make, the books are kind of my pragmatic, right? This is my career. This is how I make a living. And then with whatever time I have left, I make work that makes me proud. So that's my daily poem practice. And that is also I'm working on children's illustrations. That's a path I want to pursue. And right now I will say in the past year since giving birth, I have made three. So in the past nine months, I've made

three drawings, which previous me would have said, you're awful. Like, what are you doing with your life? You've made three drawings in nine months, but I love these drawings. I love them. I printed them out. I hung them up in my home. They're framed. They make me happy every time I see them. And that is where instead of making a bunch of work every day, posting on Instagram, thinking that I feel good about all the comments and engagement, I've just been sitting here at my desk after my kids are asleep drawing and I made three drawings that made me so happy and that is that is my value right now and the boundaries that I have put to protect that time so I can do that I love that I think this is everything I need to hear so thank you so much for sharing your wisdom your words you speak so eloquently

thank you very much for for joining us and sharing yeah your pearls of wisdom on the show thank you so much for having me it was a this was a wonderful way to spend my morning thank you thank you. Mira creates these beautiful interactive journals with illustrations which help you navigate your own personal development and she has been super successful in doing this so it was very inspiring and learning how she has made a career out of her creativity in this very dynamic interesting way so I hope you enjoyed this episode and if you're interested in finding out more from Mira you can find her on Instagram but as she said she's very disciplined with it now and I definitely need to take a leaf out of her book but you can also get her books and her work at her website, which is MiraLee.com. Thank you so much for listening

to this episode of Saturn Returns. And as always, remember, you are not alone. Goodbye. This is a Saturn Returns production. The producer is Harriet Pullen. The executive producer is me, Keggy Dunlop.