Saturn Returns with Caggie - 9.5 The Artist's Way: A Spiritual Path to Higher Creativity with Julia Cameron

Episode Date: March 18, 2024

In this enlightening episode of Saturn Returns, Caggie welcomes Julia Cameron, the visionary author of "The Artist's Way," for a deep dive into the realms of creativity, sobriety, and spiritual awakening. Julia shares her transformative journey from battling addiction to discovering a prolific path of artistic expression and inner peace. From Addiction to Inspiration: Julia opens up about her decision to embrace sobriety after a decade of struggling with alcohol. She explores the fears and myths surrounding creativity and addiction, reflecting on the insightful words of Dylan Thomas and how they've influenced her perspective on life and art. Divine Connection: Delving into the power of spirituality, Julia discusses how turning to a higher power revitalised her creative flow and helped combat her fears of creation. The conversation highlights the importance of humility in her work and its impact on her artistic process. Overcoming Creative Blocks: Julia and Caggie explore the daunting barriers to creativity, including inner child work, shame, fear, and rejection. Julia introduces the concept of the 'shadow artist' and the significance of recognizing and overcoming this state to fully embrace one's creative potential. Spiritual Chiropractic for Creativity: Discover Julia's transformative practices like Morning Pages and Artist Dates, designed to nurture the inner child and break through creative blocks. Julia emphasises the role of play in fostering creativity, arguing it's as crucial as work in the artistic journey. Confronting the Inner Critic: Humour plays a central role in Julia's methodology, particularly in dealing with the inner critic. She shares insights on naming and thus disempowering the inner critic, unlocking a freer, more expressive artistic self. Julia Cameron's journey is a testament to the transformative power of sobriety, spirituality, and self-exploration in unlocking the full spectrum of creativity. This episode is a treasure trove of wisdom for artists, writers, and anyone looking to tap into their creative potential and lead a more inspired life. Thank you Healf for having this Episode possible. You can buy Organifi from healf.com, my favourite destination for holistic wellness. They have all the best brands across their four pillars of EAT, MOVE ,MIND and SLEEP. That's h-e-a-l-f , healf with an f and get 15% when you use the code CAGGIE. — Subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and receive more empowering insights and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here. Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. Fear is the great block. We combat fear by turning to the higher power, by saying to ourselves, if I'm going to look ridiculous, so be it. Today I had the pleasure of sitting down with the legend that is Julia Cameron. For those that aren't familiar with Julia's work, she is an American teacher, author, artist, poet, with Julia's work. She is an American teacher, author, artist, poet, playwright, novelist,

filmmaker, the list goes on, but she is perhaps most famous for her book The Artist's Way. You will probably have heard me many times talking about morning pages, which is this act that you do in the morning where you have three pieces of paper, you write down a sort of stream of consciousness nothing else matters no one has to read it it doesn't have to be any particular way you just write and that is one of the practices from the artist way she has helped so many people on their creative journey she really is an icon and has had an incredible life I mean she was married to Martin Scorsese for one which is I cannot even imagine what that was like they collaborated on films together her brother which I didn't actually realize is James Cameron the very famous filmmaker so she has been surrounded by some of the greats her entire life and we wanted to have her on the podcast for a really

long time because her work has really impacted me and so to have that opportunity to actually speak with her directly was a big moment for me I'd say and so I hope that this episode connects with those of you that are on that creative path. I know we've done a few episodes around this theme and how, you know, the reasons we get in our own way, the reasons we sabotage, and we talk about that in this episode and how you can unblock your creativity and some of the practices that you can do daily to combat those sort of imposter syndromes and those those demons that can get in the way so I hope that it inspires some of you and you take something away from this conversation we touch also on sobriety because Julia's sobriety and creativity have kind of interconnected and I definitely related to that

and also something that I think is really important because with projects that are creative are vulnerable and I say this from experience we can get very heady about them because they feel too exposing and too revealing of who we are. But a shift that we discuss in this conversation is about actually how creativity is connecting to the divine. And we express our creativity as an offering. Rick Rubin talks about this, Elizabeth Gilbert talks about this. and I think it's a really important and key distinction that can help us get out of our own way and get the ego to the side a little bit. But anyway I will leave you with this conversation and I hope you enjoy it. hello julia how are you good yes where are you where are you at the moment i'm in santa fe new mexico usa oh wonderful thank you i'm in london aha but julia it's such a pleasure to have you

on the show and to get to talk to you because, well, you've been a bit of an idol of mine. I think the work and the contribution that you've made to artists and creatives everywhere has been phenomenal. So thank you firstly for that. And I would love it if you could kind of take us back a little bit to where your creative journey began. My creative journey began when I was 12. I had a crush on a boy named Peter Mundy. I wanted him to fall in love with me. So I started writing short stories and sending them across the room to him.

And he fell in love with a girl named Peggy Conroy instead. Years later, he told me that my short stories had just terrified him. What was in the stories? Well, they were just stories of love and adventure. He didn't feel up to love and adventure. Thank you for sharing that. And then, so that's when that kind of part of you awakened at quite a young age. In your more sort of professional capacity, when did you begin it

as a career? Well, I started writing full time when I was 18. And I found myself trying to be impressive and I found myself trying to win people over by virtue of my prose and I have to say it largely worked. And you spoke a little bit, is it correct in saying that you went sober around 30? Did you stop drinking at that age? I stopped drinking at 29. I had been drinking hardcore from age 19 on. from age 19 on.

And I found myself feeling trapped by my addiction. And I had previously thought that it was giving me freedom. And now I saw that it was taking my freedom away. For a lot of people that, you know, I think there's an association with creativity and artistry that in some way that it needs to be destructive or that it's fueled by these sorts of behaviors. What have you encountered from your work that would suggest otherwise? Well I think that what happened with me was I found myself saying oh I don't know if I'll be able to be creative now that I have stopped drinking and I had some friends who said to me well you have to be

creative despite your drinking so they said to me that I should try letting a force right through me and I said what if it doesn't want to and they said, what if it doesn't want to? And they said, well, just try it. And so I tried it. And to my surprise, my writing untangled.

And I became much more fluid and much more understandable. And people found my writing better. I found my writing better as well. So I think that what happened for me was the proof was in the pudding. And it was a wonderful example of creativity in practice. And I had an expression that came to me from the poet Dylan Thomas, who said, the force that through the green fuse drives the flower. And I thought, oh, well, maybe I can let the force that through the green fuse drives the flower drive me.

And I began to turn over my writing to this higher force. What does that quote mean to you? Well, I think what he was saying was that there is a force that gives us strength and courage, and it turns us into being what we are meant to be. The force that through the green fuse drives the flower, drives our green earth. It's a divine guided force. You speak a lot about creativity and spirituality being these things that are very synonymous with each other as if they are one of the same, which is something that I believe.

Can you expand on that a little bit for people and how you discovered that connecting to the divine or the creator and expressing our creativity and how that is a spiritual practice. Well, I found myself turning to the higher power for a sense of flow. And I found myself feeling like I needed to avail myself of divine help. And I found myself trying to practice a sort of humility. And it was a humility that bore fruit. And it was a humility that bore fruit. And I found that it was very fruitful and positive to turn to the higher power. I found that turning to the higher power gave me a sense of freedom and a sense of right action. And in terms of the obstacles that

people face that you've encountered along the way with expressing their creativity, why do people feel so blocked and why do people have so many challenges in sharing that? Well, I think it's important to realize that most people are afraid of looking foolish and they are afraid that they will express something that will lend them to ridicule. lend them to ridicule. And so I think that what happens is that when they move to be creative, they find themselves doubting themselves. And as they doubt themselves, they find themselves blocked. I think fear is the great block. And how do we combat fear? And we combat fear by turning to the higher power,

by saying to ourselves, if I'm going to look ridiculous, so be it. And we find ourselves saying, well, if I look ridiculous, I find myself saying things that it takes courage to say. So that's what we do. And why do you think people feel ashamed to express their art? that expressing ourselves is difficult and it causes pain to our families. Why would we think that? Because we have an experience of that. And we also have an experience of teachers who are working against creativity. So we have teachers and parents who are telling us to hush.

How dare you say that? And this comes into our adult life when we find ourselves hushing ourselves. I think a lot of creative people, if they have blocked that part of themselves and not expressed it because of their childhood or experiences in family or at school, and then they feel that they've left it too late. and then they feel that they've left it too late they've gone into I love in the artist way how you kind of called it you know shadow artists or people that hide away from the thing that they're really supposed to be doing would you be able to explain in your own words a little bit more about that kind of behavior and also your advice for people that are trying to kind of move back into that creative flow, even if they've left it a really, really long time. I think it's important to say that it's never too late, that people can turn to their creativity

at any point in their lives, and that it's a God-given gift. I mean, I'm kind of going to ask you a few more personal things on my part because I'm a singer and I've written a book and I do a podcast, but I have a very painful block with sharing my music and my artistry and that's why I think your work has been so important because sometimes I don't even understand why I do the things that I do to stop myself and that might look like almost finishing a project but leaving 10% out, never actually releasing it. And I'm sure in your experience in your work, you've encountered thousands of people behaving in these ways that blocks their creative expression.

And so I kind of wanted to take this opportunity to get your advice on moving past that? Well, I think that there's a primary tool which is very helpful, and it's called morning pages. And morning pages are three pages of longhand morning writing about absolutely anything. And when we do morning pages, we unblock. We find ourselves creating more freely. We find ourselves saying, oh, this is what I like. This is what I don't like. This is what I want more of. This is what I want less of. And the pages are a way for a person like yourself to experience some freedom. And how did you discover that practice? Because I know that practice well.

I know how many people it helps. And I guess I'm curious to know how you discovered it yourself and how you know that it works. How does it work? Well, I can't tell you how it works. I can tell you that it works. I discovered it myself when I was living at the foot of a mountain. should I do next? And then I would write down what I heard. And it usually took three pages. And I was trying to write before my daughter woke up. And I found myself writing freely. Then I said, well, if it works for me, maybe it'll work for someone else. And I taught my first class, and I assigned morning pages. And to my delight, the people in my class unblocked.

Wow. And then what happened from there? They found themselves moving freely into their art. And I found myself saying, Oh, morning pages, that's a potent practice. And what's your other favorite potent practice? Well, I think it's something I would call an artist's date. Would you explain what that is for the audience? Well, an artist's date is a once-a-week solo expedition

to do something that delights or interests you and chants you. And I found that what happened was if I had them doing morning pages, that was a daily practice. And then when I assigned artist states, they found themselves stymied because when I assigned morning pages, people thought, oh, it's work. I get it. I can do work. I can work on my creativity. But then when I said, now I want you to play, they say, play? What does play have to do with creativity? And I have an expression, the play of ideas. It's a prescription.

Play, and you will have ideas. So people then undertook artist states, and when the two were used in conjunction they were very powerful and the artist states it's supposed to be one every week is that right yes once a week and it can be just a couple of hours doing going to an art gallery or making arts and crafts? Well, it should be something fun. You don't want to make it an assignment of work. You want to make it an assignment of fun.

So what would some of your artist dates look like? Well, I have a favorite artist date, which is that I go to a pet store where they have a large gray bunny. And the bunny is named George. And they have permission from the owner to pet George. And when I pet George's silky coat, I feel happy, and evidently George feels happy. That's a great one. And then from that, that sort of fuels the creativity then?

Yes. It doesn't need to be linear. You don't need to make an artist state that goes along the lines of what you're working on petting george has nothing to do with screenplays but when i pet george i find myself writing freely you also kind of relate the um the creative self as sort of in a child where you kind of use that language around yeah the creative aspect of ourself that therefore is a bit more fragile perhaps or vulnerable what are some of the tools that you use for protecting and nurturing that creative child well I think the artist's date is the primary tool because it gives people a sense of glee, a sense of expansion, a sense of benevolence. And I think that it's an important tool. And I think also the morning pages, with their ability to say anything and everything, is another potent tool that protects the inner child. and for um you know we spoke a little bit at the beginning about some of the reasons people put off expressing themselves creatively and i think another big one is that people fear well you

said fear looking foolish and there's also the rejection piece that people fear that their work will be rejected by people and therefore they want to keep it hidden unto themselves because that way it's safe. And what would you say? I think that's very true. I think that people are afraid of rejection. They're afraid of ridicule. They're afraid of feeling foolish.

They're afraid of feeling foolish. And so what they do with their work is they closet it and they find themselves doing anything but expressing. And when you say the shadow artist, would you be able to explain what that is? Well, a shadow artist is someone who works in a field that's parallel to their own dreams, but they lack the courage to move into their dreams. So a person might be a wonderful photographer and they become a photographer's rep, representing other photographers, not themselves. So they're close to the dream, but they're not really um themselves close to the dream but they're in the shadows and they don't express their true dream and you've also touched i can't remember the term

used was it crazy makers well crazy makers are something that we all encounter. Crazy makers are people who make us crazy. A crazy maker does something like you have a deadline and the crazy maker suddenly has a crisis right on your deadline. Or you've neatened up your desk and the crazy maker messes up your desk. The crazy maker is someone who blocks your creative flow. And I think a lot of us become involved with crazy makers because it's much less threatening to be involved with a crazy maker than it is to take the risk of our own creativity.

That hit me. I think that's very true because then we can sort of subcontract our authority and make them the reason that we're not doing what we're supposed to be doing yes and if you if someone listening to this suddenly becomes aware of these things that they are stopping themselves like do you recommend that they just start doing the artist pages and the artist day and that that will start shifting things or that they need to make more adjustments in their life? Well, I think that the morning pages and the artist dates tell us what adjustments we need to make. They perform something I call spiritual chiropractic. They shift us in the direction of our dreams. And I think that it's a potent practice and a powerful practice. When we do, we find ourselves moving into creativity. And for those that are listening that might be thinking,

And for those that are listening that might be thinking, well, how do I do morning pages in the right way? I know there's no right or wrong way, but would you be able to kind of explain a little bit in your own words how people should start? Well, you take three pages of blank A4 paper, and you start and you say, this is what I believe. This is what I hope. This is what I dream.

This is what I fantasize. And you just move your hand across the page, and it's as if you're poking into a corner of your life. And it's as if you have a little teeny broom, and you're brushing all the debris toward the center of the room where you can begin to look at it. Usually people find themselves becoming what I would call positively addicted. To morning pages? To morning pages.

Something I also wanted to ask you, what have your observations been since you did The Artist's Way to today? Have you noticed a change in creativity in people's expression of it? Well, if you're asking me if people are more or less blocked than they were 30 years ago, I don't find them to be more blocked. Okay. I find them to be more open-minded. I think the reputation of the book has been helpful.

And, you know, at this point, five million people are working the artist's way. And that's a pretty powerful phalanx of people. And what about affirmations? I think affirmations are powerful. They're a positive statement of belief in something that we hope for. One of the things that morning pages do is that they miniaturize our critic. And I have been writing for 55 years, and I have an inner critic named Nigel.

I like the idea of naming. And I have found that naming your critic and having them become a cartoon character is something very potent. So for people listening, do you think naming that sort of inner critic is a useful tool to create a bit of separation. Yes, very much so. And then when it comes up, when it sort of starts saying horrible things, what do you do? You say to your critic, ah, thank you for sharing. And you keep right on writing. As a singer, your critic may say,

you have no business singing. You say, ah, thank you for sharing. I'm going to sing. And you move forward into singing. I think a lot of people let their inner critic win, and I think it's important for them to realize that the critic hates being made fun of. And so when they find themselves saying, ah, thank you for sharing, they are poking fun at the critic, and the critic will quickly back down. I find myself using humor to disarm the critic and to disarm crazy makers.

By using it as a force of humor. This little poem goes out to my fear. I want to say, don't come near. So that's what you say? Yes, you write a little silly ditty. Thank you for sharing that. And the final thing I wanted to ask you about was synchronicity and how when we can kind of step past the fear and be more expressive, how you say that things just start appearing and the universe sort of conspires to make your dreams a reality, but we need to take that leap of faith first. Synchronicity is the meshing of our inner world and our outer world. And I find when you use morning pages and artist states, your synchronicity kicks up,

and you are more and more often in the right place at the right time well thank you very much for joining us today thank you some of the themes that i took away from this episode that i'll just kind of recap for you all is this you know this concept of fluidity and sobriety I liked how Julia shares the moment she decided to go sober after almost 10 years of hardcore drinking and the themes of feeling trapped by addiction and the angst about what role alcohol plays in creativity because I think some people think it you know as we touched on makes them more creative this theme that I mentioned at the beginning as well of connecting to the divine

I think it's it's so crucial and that is why I'm speaking and doing a lot more creative things myself because I do believe that creativity and spirituality are for for me anyway, they're synonymous with each other. My ability to create, to push myself to do something that is serving of something else is really, really crucial to my own spiritual growth at this stage. And also, I just think we really need it. I think as a society, we really need our inner artists to be awakened right now. It's just something that I'm feeling that we collectively need to tap into. Also this work around creative blocks and how we can become very fearful to create. I know that I really struggle with this and the themes of inner child work, working through shame, fear

and rejection and how these things can impact us from childhood and manifest into our adult lives. I really enjoyed this theme of the shadow artist and why it's important we never become one. Also to name our inner critic, that voice in your head is not you and morning pages can be an amazing practice for this and also i really love the idea of artist dates i think that if that's a takeaway for any of you to do something just for you that's sort of a date with yourself and yeah i i think there was a lot of wisdom in this conversation. So I hope that it has inspired some of you on your creative journeys to unlocking your authenticity. And thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend who you

think might find it useful. And as always, remember, you are not alone. Goodbye.