Saturn Returns with Caggie - 9.8 Following your heart and trusting your inner knowing with Manon Elise

Episode Date: April 8, 2024

In this episode of Saturn Returns, Caggie sits down with her friend, Manon Elise, who has been a loyal follower of the podcast since day one. Manon's journey to discovering the show mirrors her own transformative experience: while working as a lawyer and on the brink of marriage, she made the courageous decision at 29 to call off her engagement, switch careers, and relocate from London to Lisbon. Their conversation delves into the common dilemma of achieving outward success while feeling an inner sense of dissatisfaction. It's a reminder to heed the whispers of intuition and embrace the path aligned with the heart's true calling. As CEO of Harvest Series, an annual summit held in Turkey, Manon brings a wealth of insight into personal growth and authenticity. Join Caggie and Manon as they explore the power of following your heart and trusting your inner knowing amidst life's twists and turns and society's expectations. For more on Harvest Series https://www.harvestseries.com/ Thank you Dr Hauschka for making this Episode of Saturn returns possible! — Subscribe to "Saturn Returns" for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn's return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. Follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram to stay updated on her personal journey and receive more empowering insights and you can find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.  Order the Saturn Returns Book. Join our community newsletter here.  Find all things Saturn Returns, offerings and more here.

For me, the thought of cancelling my wedding and quitting being a lawyer, at one moment in my life, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. confusion and doubt. In today's episode, I wanted to share a conversation between myself and not only a friend, but someone who has been part of the Saturn Returns community for a long time. Because whilst I get to interview so many incredible thought leaders, at the heart of what Saturn Returns is about, is about connecting and being vulnerable and sharing our stories that are sometimes hard, sometimes uncomfortable, but they are also incredibly unifying. So Manon is someone that I was introduced to a couple of years ago and we became fast

friends. She is now the CEO of Harvest series so if you guys aren't familiar with Harvest it's this incredible summit I guess that happens in May I'm going to be going and they have amazing thought leaders taking part Esther Pearl's going to be doing it this year and I cannot wait and we really kind of bonded and she told me her story about her Saturn Returns journey and how she kind of discovered the podcast while she was going through this huge transition and it really felt appropriate to have her on the show to share this because I feel like it will resonate with many of you that might be going through something similar because it is just a kind of classic Saturn Returns experience

in the sense that when we feel we have everything society tells us we should want and yet something feels off. And so this episode is all around trusting your inner knowing and following your heart. So I hope you enjoy it. enjoy it. Manon, welcome to Saturn Returns. Hello. We have just been talking for two hours, so like I said, we should have been recording. But for the audience that doesn't know, would you be able to explain a little bit about the work that you do and who you are, aside from being one of my dearest friends?

Yes, yes. Thank you so much for having me I um I am running a company called Harvest Series and we're as you know because you've come to primarily a summit in Turkey where we are talking about the important topics around the self, society and the planet. So quite a broad spectrum of topics. And the idea is, is that we're bringing people together and some incredible speakers. So we've had people like Gabor Mate, who I know you know very well, and Andrew Huberman and Mark Hyman and Dan Buettner and Sylvia Earle. So a huge spectrum of different people who are really at the top of their game, who are really sharing incredible ideas and we want to create a space for transformation and inspiration wherever that comes from so whether it's from a psychotherapist or a climate scientist or actually in May we have an astrobiologist coming as well as Esther Perel yeah as well as Esther Perel because it's such

an obvious combination I know but it's it's um we're really trying to provide a platform for the full spectrum of transformative ideas and they come from all different places and we all know Esther Perel's work I mean I think a lot of people do know her work and it's incredible and it's the core of you know our relationships are at the core of everything but it's cool to mix it in with the astrobiologists and the climate scientists and yeah the first time when because we connected through a mutual friend Farley who came to Lisbon yeah she then was hanging out with you I think someone put her in touch with you and then you were already listening to Saturn Returns yes I was I was I didn't actually know what a Saturn Return was until I listened to your podcast when

how did you discover the podcast how did I I discover the podcast? I think I was going through a bit of a tricky time at that time. I mean, so many tricky times that I've gone through in my life, but I remember quite distinctly that podcasts were featuring big time in my life. And what was really helping me, I was searching for stories because what was really helping me, I was searching for stories, because what was really helping me was listening to other people's stories of adversity, or just difficult times in their lives, and how they had got through it, and suddenly it was opening, I think I wasn't finding those stories in my everyday life. Was this when you were in London? I was in London, yeah, life. Were you, was this when you were in London? I was in London, yeah, at the time I was living in London, um, and hilariously had had the most colossal Saturn return, but I didn't know it

was a Saturn return when it was happening, and then I, and then I listened to your podcast, and was like, oh! But how did you find the podcast? I do not remember. I think I was Googling. No, I don't remember exactly how I found it. I think it might have been one of your speakers. One of your speakers that I was interested in. So how long ago was this? This was kind of right towards the beginning, I guess. Yeah, I think it would have been towards the beginning.

Maybe like three three how long have you been doing it three years ago yeah like four I think we're four years old now I think it was season one for sure yeah and so what was going on at the time because you had one of those Saturn return experiences like my one was very much everything came like crumbling down and all the things I was trying to force just weren't really working. And they were kind of ripped away from me. Whereas I often because people are like, oh, can you be going through, you know, can it be can it be fine? Can it just mean like everything's good? I'm like, yeah, it can also mean an up leveling.

If you've been living authentically, it can mean that, you know, you get that promotion, that marriage, children, whatever it might be. And then there's also the scenario where people have kind of created the perfect image. They're doing, you know, the right career. They found the right partner by society's standards or their families or whatever it might be. And then they get

to that point where they go oh my god I'm miserable yeah oh yeah I yeah I had exactly that I always say it's the spiritual awakening that comes with getting absolutely everything in inverted commas you ever wanted or that you ever thought you wanted or thought that mattered and then um realizing that it's not really about that and I was an expert at kind of ticking the boxes let's say so I really believed that there were certain things in your life that would make you happy and if you just got them external things so like a good career and earning lots of money so that you are financially independent and being in a relationship or being married and owning a home and all of

those things happened the thing is is that you can have all of those things happened. The thing is, is that you can have all of those things and be wildly happy if they're in alignment. Or you can have all of those things and be desperately unhappy and unsatisfied because it's not truly in alignment and it doesn't truly represent who you are and your values. And I recently read this thing um this concept that someone wrote about which was misalignment burnout and I read it and I was like yeah that's what it was it was a series of um choices that I had made in my life that didn't really reflect my values and didn't really reflect who I was and so within the space of about six months. Okay let's before we get into like the unravelling what so from what were the things that you had like let's talk about the relationship the job that you were in

like describe what that all looked like. yeah so at the time I was a lawyer and I was a lawyer in a very uh you know very prominent law firm a top London law firm um it was very prestigious and your parents wanted you to be a lawyer is that something you know not really I they hadn't pressured me into it although no one had sort of said that I needed to do that. But you get a heck of a lot of external validation. And if like me. Laws are always like, oh, OK. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And if like me, external validation is like crack cocaine, then it feels pretty good when you go to a dinner party and there's like a moment of

someone being kind of impressed when you say yeah I'm a lawyer um and I liked it but the reality was I liked how people reacted to me when I told them I was a lawyer because people make assumptions I think that you're like wildly intelligent or like you don't want I don't know what it is they're being impressed by but they they do and the reality is it's super hard work and it's a tough environment to work in it's like very masculine very uh fast-paced very competitive and for some people they thrive in that environment but for me I didn't um and there's no space for you know there's some of the things that were important to me like creativity and maybe being a bit kind of I'm not so in the box you know I'm a bit and there wasn't that much space for that and so it but it was an amazing career and it is an amazing job and so

I got a lot of uh validation for that even if my family hadn't necessarily said you must be a lawyer yeah but I was used to that because I've always been very like the A-star student high achieving yeah exactly the kind of insecure overachiever that is like constantly needs the that validation and and um and then I and I had a a house that I owned in London at the time which was a big achievement it is a big achievement to own a home in London it's expensive and most people are not able to do that um but what's involved is basically staying in the job that you don't love because you have to earn a certain amount of money to pay the mortgage and things like that so it all it all kind of gets connected and then I was engaged to be married to an unbelievable human being who was the most gorgeous, wonderful, hilarious person.

And so I got a lot of recognition, you know, externally from people that they felt maybe I had the perfect life. You know, they kind of reflected that back to me because on the outside, it all ticked all the boxes. Yeah, it ticked all the boxes. And in many ways, it was great. Elements of it were amazing. How old were you at this point when you were engaged? I was 29. There you go. Yeah.

Yeah. So how long were you together for before you got engaged? We were together for seven years. Yeah. Yeah. And it's amazing because, you know know those are seven quite formative years so massively yeah and you change a lot during that time and also we were kids like we didn't really I think back and I think we didn't really know what I know now, which is in a relationship, I might ask

more questions of like, where do you want to live? How many children do you want to have? Like, what are the things that are important to you? How do you want to live your life? Um, and I'm actually quite a gypsy. And yeah, and, and, um, it's important to know that because it's not that compatible with someone who maybe doesn't feel like that, doesn't want to travel so much or wants to set up a home and roots and really build something. you don't, you know, it was important to kind of recognise that things can change like that. And we didn't have those important conversations. Did you feel that you knew that about yourself even? No, exactly. Exactly. And that's a problem I think we often don't.

Totally. How can you articulate that to someone else when you haven't even articulated it to yourself. I remember at the time I worked with a therapist and it was the first time I'd ever done talking therapy. And I remember him asking me the question, but like, what do you want? And I was so devastated by that question, because when you are asked that question and you don't have the answer to it, it's it kind of rocks you and shakes you. And I was like, what do you mean? What do you want? And then when you actually ascertain what you do want. And it's not what you're doing or how you're living it's scary it's scary and not only is it not what you're doing or how you're living it also might be quite kooky it might be and no one else will get it everyone's like well why would you want to do

that when you've got this you know you've got everything that's going on and I think that that's why that particular story that I think a lot of people relate to is is a very complicated one because society is telling you all the things you should want and do and and if you're achieving them and succeeding you get congratulated and validated and people are like oh oh, wow, you're doing really well. And you're like, but I feel like I'm unravelling and really unhappy. And then you sort of feel a bit closed off from the world because you feel guilty for feeling that way. And sometimes the path that is your own,

no one else around you is walking. Exactly, exactly. And I remember at the time I had so little kind of trust in myself and and and that's something that I still struggle with you know you have to build on that that I would test the water with like floating an idea with someone be like so I was thinking I don't want to be a lawyer anymore and then kind of gauge their reaction as to whether that was a good idea or not oh god I do that all the time and I I got a lot of negative feedback why were you doing it is it because you wanted validation to get out yeah exactly and I couldn't give it to myself and I

couldn't just trust myself I had this feeling that that's not what I wanted to do anymore and it was growing and you know it's a process of that little seed starts inside of you and then it grows and grows and grows and eventually it's like quite a loud shout that you can't ignore so then I was like okay well how is this going to be received and I used to joke with a girlfriend so much because eventually I did leave the law but I was so attached to the external validation and the identity there was a period of time afterwards where I would still go to dinner parties and introduce myself as I used to be a lawyer and it would go down like kind of weirdly because they'd be like okay cool

like I used to be a lawyer um so I eventually let go of that and she I joked with her because she had the same process of being an actress she was so attached to the identity of being an actress but she it had let it go she she it was really making her unhappy and so then there was a period of time where she would say I used to be an actress um but yeah so I I tested it and I got a lot of feedback from people that wasn't great like you know give me an example words like career suicide to quit yeah to quit the law and also a lot of kind of not really getting it like saying oh but you studied for so long to become a lawyer and you like it didn't it cost loads of money and like it took so long because it's a long time at law school and then you've got a long time

within the firm training anywhere yeah yeah exactly and then you've also got the echo chamber of working so I would kind of float the idea with a couple of my colleagues at the time and obviously they were like terrible that's a terrible idea but they're validating their own life choices yeah totally um and so in the end do you not feel like you get to a point where you're just spinning around in circles yeah you're essentially seeking someone to tell you what you already know, rather than trusting that inner voice. You want someone to give you that affirmation that you can or permission to. You don't get it.

Totally. Well, that's why I have like a pathological addiction to tarot card readers. Oh my God, yeah, I've definitely been there at those times. In the crisis, I go to a tarot card reader to tell me exactly what I know already. But yeah, exactly. But it was a perfect life lesson in the end because it meant that I had to be brave and I had to make the change in the face of everyone saying, oh, I'm not really sure that's a great idea or not getting it.

Because did you know what you wanted to do no exactly exactly and there was just this kind of prevailing feeling of being misunderstood and not seen because everyone was like your life is fine what's wrong with you you know um and so I had to really learn to be brave and make kind of weird or unpopular decisions and forge a path that no one really understood but that felt good what did that look like well in the beginning it looked like going to parties and asking anyone I met if they'd give me a job so you just threw yourself out there and was like right I've got to figure out what's next. But you'd already jumped. I had already, yeah, I had briefly moved to a smaller law firm just to test whether it was the type of law.

It was the place. Yeah, the place or the type of law. But I quickly discovered that actually that place was great and it was good to show me that it really was the job because the people were great and the work-life balance was bit better because I think that is actually quite valid that for some people it might just be they're not in the right they do like what they're doing they're just not enjoying where they're doing it or who they're doing it yeah so I think that's quite a good way of testing it but also I feel that people even if they're unhappy with what they're doing they want that safety net to appear first before

they jump and then totally it doesn't work that way it doesn't work that way and what I've kind of the way I make sense of it is quite a woo-woo explanation but you're on the right podcast it's I energetically you have to just take one step and you don't need to know how to get to the end of the journey to make the first step and I think a lot of people get paralyzed that they don't they don't take that first step because they can't see everything perfectly laid out in front of them exactly showing them that everything's going to be okay and the funny thing is is that everything will be okay because you just work it out as you go along because you have to but it's so important to kind of energetically take that leap of faith into the unknown because it's faith.

It's actually faith that you have to have, that your faith in yourself, faith in your environment, faith that things are going to be OK when you have a big unknown in front of you. But you've got a feeling. Yeah, you've got a feeling yeah you've got a feeling and I think the the what I've been trying to cultivate since that time is connecting to that feeling because I didn't even connect to it back then and it was that the ability to connect to how you feel about something is kind of new to me. I think it's new to most people. I think we're educated and socialised out of it. And actually, I'm really feeling at the moment in my own life,

even though I get to do the work that I do and I'm in the space that I am, recognising how in my own head I've been and how in that sort of intellectual, linear, logical, kind of, well, this is the plan, like this is the end game kind of thing. And then feeling very at odds with the feeling that I'm having. And this feeling when I kind of tune into that and into my heart and into my body is giving me these downloads that my head is like we don't like that because it's

basically saying like just trust the unfolding but you've got to take that next you've got to take a step but we can't tell you exactly where it's going but it's going to be okay just carry on but then my head is like doesn't like me and I think everybody battles with that and the world that we live in to go in anywhere to anyone and say you know in my heart I'm feeling like I should be guided in this way people are like uh oh my god for real literally people are like she's lost it yeah, and like London's really bad. It's like, I feel most people are just so leading from the head. Yeah, really.

And then you become very disconnected from your body because you're constantly denying what it's telling you. Yeah. And it's a, you know, I lived in London for many years and it's a tough environment. You've got to be a tough cookie to get lived in London for many years and it's a it's a tough environment you've got to be a tough cookie to get by in London you've got to earn a good amount of money you've got to pay the rent everything's expensive you've got to hustle and so all of your daily survival techniques tend to or for me they built an armor around body. And so all you're left with is your

monkey mind that's trying to say, your mind doesn't like the unknown for sure. And it likes to reason its way out of everything. And if you are even able to connect with your body, because I wasn't even able to connect with my intuition and my body because of that armor the the armor of of that you have to build to survive in a hustling city like London or an environment like doing law yeah exactly exactly which was very cerebral very male dominated there's not much space for intuition in the law I don't think anyone really wants a lawyer that's acting on intuition although there could be a gap in the market intuitive lawyers exactly exactly and so um at the point that you even can connect with it. And then, like you said, sharing it.

It's not the environment around us, depending where you are, of course, because I live in Lisbon. So now you do. Now I live in Lisbon. And so it's entirely normal on a Monday night to go to Kirtan, on a Tuesday night to go to a cacao ceremony,

on a Wednesday night to do ecstatic dance and then to share afterwards that you connected with your heart and your heart told you it was a good idea I love that yeah I mean to be fair though I do think it's available in London you just might have to seek it out yeah it's more diluted probably because there's nine million people living in London and so you've got the full spectrum of everything but um yeah and I think that speaks to how important it is the environment that you're in and the echo chamber that you're in yeah so the environment both location city where you're actually physically living as well as the environment socially that you're occupying because I also

do believe you know I've had experiences in London where I've been hanging out with certain groups of friends and then thought I hate London I never want to be here again this is I will never live here again and I thought that in my 20s and then now I'm back in London and have a totally different group of friends and have a very different experience that's far more aligned and in tune with who I am and what I'm about. But I do recognize that it's quite hard to stay and remain in one place and make those changes. It's almost easier to leave and then come back and start anew. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that was part of what was difficult at the time during my Saturn return, which was when I eventually realised that getting married wasn't the right decision for me and that's not what I wanted to do.

I was surrounded, I was in this moment in my life where everyone was getting married. Kind of, we had this domino effect of proposals. That happens, doesn't it yeah and and there's this moment where everyone's getting married it's wedding after wedding it's super fun um and it's kind of cool to be doing all the same the same things as your peers in some way but if you're the person that realizes that that's not for you you're suddenly the black sheep and also that's a really scary place to be because it's obviously such a huge commitment one way or the other you know to commit to not doing it is just as big as when someone's actually asked you and you're engaged.

And then to feel like, and everyone congratulating you, invalidating you, being like, you've been chosen, how wonderful. Yeah, yeah. And by like a lovely man, to then feel this isn't what I want, that must have been horrible. Yeah, it was. I remember feeling very alone at the time very very lonely because you couldn't really did you feel you could speak to anyone about it no and I think that was what was part of the problem with um maybe having not expressed it to anyone it then came as quite a shock to a lot of people when I finally did express it how long would you say you knew that it was wrong? It's so difficult to say because it's like a gradual knowing

that builds up and up over time. And then eventually you kind of are like between a rock and a hard place and you're kind of forced. It's like that voice that starts as a whisper and then eventually becomes a shout and you can't ignore it or I like to think of the sort of pebbles that are thrown in your way and then the rock set in and then the boulders and you're like okay I actually should have listened way back then what was the actual what did you feel when

you were proposed to did you know it was coming I didn't know it was coming no actually which was an incredible feat on his uh on his uh part because I'm so nosy it's so difficult to surprise me um it was it's confusing because there was so much love so much love, so much love. And love is in so many different forms. And it can be really confusing to feel an incredible amount of love for a person and admiration and just thinking that they are quite literally the most wonderful human being you've ever met, but also simultaneously know that that's not for you. And so that took a long time for me to unpick myself because one of the things that has really helped me is integrated family systems. Is that what they call it? Yeah. Internal family system therapy. Exactly. Exactly. I never remember the name.

internal family system therapy exactly in turn exactly I never remember the name because it was the first time when I did internal family systems it was the first time I understood that you can have all these different competing parts of you and that they are kind of all equally valid and that you have to give some space to all of them and they're doing different roles and so at the time it was very confusing to feel that love and then also feel that that wasn't the right thing but I just knew I had this deep inner knowing that it wasn't the right thing and it wasn't just for me but it was also for him and one as in you knew it wasn't right for him as in I knew that it wasn't right for him? As in I knew that it wasn't right for us. I had this deep knowing that it wasn't our path, either of us.

And it's sometimes challenging to be the one that recognises that. Totally. And the one that voices it, especially if maybe the other person hasn't recognised it yet but one of the things that really really um I found a lot of comfort in since then is that he's now married to the most fabulous girl and they've just had a baby together and the whole thing is glorious and they're you know and and so that really in a way validates that knowing that back then was super super difficult to to kind of stick to well I think a lot of people stay in things because they're afraid to hurt the other person but actually I'm a true believer in I think it's Elizabeth Gilbert who says there's no such thing as one-way liberation so if it's liberating and

freeing for one person the other person might not see it immediately but ultimately they will and they'll be able to look back and be like actually that wasn't right and it doesn't it doesn't invalidate the love or the care that was present but kind of going back to that stage so you said that you started to know but it wasn't like it was kind of growing over time in what ways did you start to know how did that come through to you yeah that's it's really difficult to describe I think it's the kind of uh the way that it's difficult to describe an inner knowing. And I think that's why I had spent my whole life not trusting it. It comes with this feeling in my body that I don't even know if I can articulate to you. But since then, now that I've tuned into it, it's a knowing that this is not for me.

This is not the right path for me. Yet there's no real logical explanation of why it isn't the right path. And from the outside, it can even look like a great idea. Sorry, could you repeat that bit again it's just not yeah so um there's no real logical uh explanation for why it's it's not the right path for you or not a good idea and from the outside it might even look like a great idea so so your mind is kind of battling with this inner knowing because logically this is a great it could be the relationship it could be an opportunity it could be so many things um but there's this kind of growing sense of unease

or a feeling like it's not right and then it manifested in anxiety in insomnia my my unchecked intuitive messages always manifest in in ways in my body which back then I didn't know that that you didn't recognize the alarm bells kind of that were ringing yeah and I didn't even know about the connection between our emotional bodies and our physical bodies and how most of, a lot of the physical symptoms that we experience are connected to our emotional and mental and spiritual well-being. And so I just was becoming... So you said insomnia, so you just weren't sleeping. Yeah. Were you not sleeping because you were thinking about this life

that you were kind of commissioned to? Or were you just not sleeping for other reasons? Or you thought there were other reasons? Yeah, I thought it was other reasons. I thought I was just going through a bad patch of sleep and it was weird. And so I'd go to Holland and Barrett and buy all the sleep supplements, you know, to treat the symptom, having not made any real connection to it. And also, bear in mind, I hadn't really done any self-inquiry up until that point. So I didn't really even know who I was outside of a relationship as well because not only had we been together for

seven years before that I had just been in back-to-back relationships so I didn't know who I was what I wanted I couldn't articulate to you but I knew something was wrong big time and then the first time I was I even managed to articulate it to another person was when I I didn't know what to do so I I got a psychotherapist and I so you confided in a psychotherapist as opposed to a friend yes and hilariously I remember this so clearly I employed this psychotherapist to get me married what as in I was like what's up with me I need to like I'm feeling all these weird feelings and I need to get across the finish line and so I'm the finish line was getting engaged and getting married yeah because the oh right because you wanted to get married so we were engaged and I was having all of these um confusing feelings

um so then I I started working with a psychotherapist to work through your stuff yeah to work through my stuff and also because the thought of like cancelling our wedding or our engagement was unthinkable to me that wasn't an option at all at all so I thought I'll work with a psychotherapist and he'll help me to get married and then it's all going to be fine um and he'll help me through all these really inconvenient feelings um and it was the total opposite because for the first time ever I worked with someone where I could be totally honest and you know with that psychotherapist relationship you have an opportunity for the mask to come down and you're not people pleasing with them so much so much i was gonna say like a lot of people still

do yeah yeah they're like i'm okay they're like you're here yeah exactly um and he helped me to for the first time ever even try and identify as i said like what it is that i wanted or how i felt a lot of another thing that I really struggled with was when someone would ask me how I feel about something I and I was so disconnected from any feelings because I had spent my entire life really really really really expertly people pleasing and when you do that you're so focused on other people's needs you completely disconnect from the way that you feel because it doesn't matter because you you're you feel good if you please someone else so as long as you please someone else everything's fine um

and which again for anyone to end an engagement is a massive thing let alone someone that has that kind of programming of like as long as everyone's happy yeah I'll be happy because you feel you're going to disappoint your partner you're going to disappoint I don't know people that are coming to the whip like there's so many layers to that family it was about as bad and nightmarish as it could possibly be for a people pleaser or a recovering people pleaser and what was the turning point where you went to the psychotherapist to kind of get over the line as you say and get married to realizing I don't want to get married I think was, I had that realization in the sessions with him. So he helped me to unpack everything so much. And this is why actually in crisis,

it's so helpful to work with a professional in so many different ways, because they can help you to unpack so many confusing things and they don't have any bias. You know, I had tried to unpack some of those things with people in my life and bless them, people try to help you, but they, I even got some hilarious advice. I think back to people who said, why don't you just get married and see how it goes? You can always get divorced I and that when I got that I was like that doesn't feel like my you know my greatest aspiration um and so he really you know they do so they help you in a way that is so unbiased and they really are are just focused on on what you're telling them and and they help you to unpack so many confusing aspects to situations

that then I realized and then it was the one of the most painful things I have ever done in my entire life it remains it remains as something that gives me a bit of a cringing moment when I think about it because it was so painful. But as I said, in the end, it was 100% the right thing for both me and for him, even if we had to kind of forge through that really muddy, painful time. And at the time, did he did he have like was he completely shocked when he said it yeah I think we I think it was a surprise to him because as I said I I hadn't been good at communication how you felt and with myself first and foremost and then I didn't even know myself so then of course it was going to be a shock to him because it was a shock to me I thought I was hiring the therapist to get

married and make it all fine and how soon to actually the wedding date and making this decision because he planned everything yeah yeah that was pretty tough yeah that was we I think we had a few months before the wedding and we had planned like the most ideal um ceremony in the south of France and invited hundreds of people and it was going to be absolutely spectacular. And so I think, you know, it's a break. First and foremost, it's a breakup, but it's done quite publicly because you've got to let everyone know. And you've got to let everyone know pretty quickly. Because people are making travel arrangements.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so suddenly it's quite public. yeah exactly and so suddenly it's quite public and my tendency when I'm going through a difficult time is to really go into my shell and be private about it very private and very I love to be a little hermit and then I'll come out when everything's fine when you're healed like I can come out now exactly so that again must have been, whilst we're trying to muddy through that emotional experience just between the two of you, let alone having to share it with everyone else. Exactly, exactly, exactly. So it was really challenging. And the thing is, is that all of this was happening at the same time so within the space of 60 uh six months I quit being a lawyer

cancelled my wedding and then moved out of London and everyone was like are you okay babe you're like no not really yeah exactly um and did you move to Lisbon at that point no prime at first i moved to germany i joined another startup so there's been you know there's a few and this is speaks to the the thing about taking the first step because i joined another startup and that's where i really learned how to build a business and we built an incredible business um where they had invented a new children's toy and um it was super fun so we you know it was like quite literally playing we were doing really fun things but I learned the chaos of a startup and how to build

a business and I learned all of those those lessons on the job because I remember you telling me as well about that experience that you didn't actually have any of the credentials or that they were looking for you just were like winging it and you were like yeah I can I can do those things and you just figured it out yeah because also weirdly you know even though you're very qualified as a lawyer you're very qualified in a specialized area um and I think probably the same is true for many jobs totally and you don't feel like you can move from being a lawyer to being a marketing person or especially I think there's a real thing around and this is kind of in essence why I think the show has connected with people is because people feel this idea that at 30

it's decided what you're doing with your life who you're going to be with the kind of way that you're going to live and so you feel this real I don't know terror when you get to that point and realize you might be with you know in all the wrong places with the wrong person or you might not have a clue or all of it and that feels quite frightening but I think we're both testament to the fact that actually it's kind of great when you don't know what you want to do at that age and to just start over again totally totally my life has been I mean I'm a Scorpio so my life is characterized by burning your whole life to the ground and starting again.

And yeah, I've reinvented myself God knows how many times. And in the beginning, you have to just wing it and you have to kind of slightly convince people that you're capable. And, you know, more often than not, you're capable that you're capable and you know more often than not you are capable I'm a great believer that everyone can learn anything if I for god's sake could learn to be a lawyer anyone can and you can if you can learn to be a lawyer you can learn to do anything and and also just because you're 30 or at whatever age it's not too late because I think that's a really sad thing yeah that people live with or they stop themselves from doing something that they desperately desire to do and actually having the passion is the fuel that you need to learn how to

do anything if you don't have that it might not work but if you're passionate you can learn what you need to learn to succeed at the thing that you want to do. You know, I used to... And often that doesn't come because you don't have like the tools to kind of materialize it. Because post-Saturn return, when you kind of know how to be disciplined, responsible, like it's much easier actually to realize it. Totally, totally. easier actually to realize it totally totally I at the time had this hilarious habit that I loved to do which was googling people stories about so I learned from stories stories are super important to me this white saturn return was so great for me when I listened to it back then because I heard

all these stories and they expanded my horizons of what was possible. But one of the things I always used to do was Google people who have become very successful. Later. Later. And it's amazing to hear how many there are. There are like these people, artists and poets who only started their artistic career age 80 and are now like world-renowned incredible artists like traveling the globe people are paying thousands of pounds for their artwork and they're just some kind of fab 80 year old woman and then I love that yeah and then there are people I remember there was

one woman who set up a pet insurance business age 65 and became a multi-gajillionaire and I just thought amazing I've got till 65 to do all these iterations of all these things because even Gabor I was gonna say Gabor has only really come into his moment and he's how old he's in his 70s yeah and he's only really been let's say as household name a household name or becoming a household name over the past 10 years yeah so it just goes to show that and he's not it's not slowing down any no and and it feels like for me at least because I'm such a mega fan how how did the world ever exist before Gabble but you know he's his work and what he's been doing has only really come to the forefront recent relatively recently um and so I'm a great believer in find stories that reinforce what's possible not what's not exactly I think that the

majority of and the narrative generally for people is I've left it too late I'm never gonna find my thing I've got to settle for this I can't reinvent myself now you know that is what I feel people think and then it just makes everyone just dims your sparkle and it really is just a limiting belief it might feel super I'm not taking away from it's not I'm not saying that it's easy to do any of those things it's not easy to change your career or make a big change in your relationship or do any of the things that might mean that you become more aligned but everything is possible and so all you only have to look at all this crazy world that we're in to see what's possible you know AI and all the technological advances that 50 years ago could never have been imaginable for you to see that really everything is possible and most things really are just a limiting belief

no matter how difficult it you know you I think people like Joe Dispenza are really good for for helping people to understand that you can kind of train yourself to overcome a lot of these limiting beliefs and change your life quite significantly by changing these these patterns of thought yeah I think a really important one to start with is just asking yourself when you're having those thoughts are is it true is that actually factually true like if I say for it because I feel for me like I really want to put more creativity out into the world and and like put more music out and then occasionally quite a lot I get faced with this thought of well you've left it far too late like you had a window and you missed that window and I have to be like no like why who says who created these things and then like none of it's

real but it's it's incredible how much of a force and a restriction that can be in our own lives of what we're capable of of doing and creating totally totally and I think it's just coming back constantly coming back to that inner knowing and checking in with yourself and again it's like when you have that feeling when you when you check in and your body's like no we we really want to do that you're like but it's gonna be so hard and your head's like it's such a silly idea and your heart's like but we've got to do it you know and I think that that's what I hope this conversation that encourages people to trust that a little bit more but kind of back to your story in terms of then

finding yourself in Lisbon which it sounds like is like your place and working at Harvest that very much aligns with who you are like what would your advice be for people trying to figure out where they're supposed to be in the world and what they're supposed to be doing my advice would really be to prioritize your joy so normally if you prioritize your joy um even if that it doesn't always make sense like even if it doesn't naturally you don't naturally feel that it's going to lead you to a job opportunity or you kind of have to get all of that out of your head all the logical reasonable things that your mind says well that's not gonna work and you know that won't get that won't pay the bill that doesn't go anywhere yeah exactly but just do it go whatever it is so for me I love things that help me to be in my body. And those are things like singing and dancing and

being in nature is also really important for me. And the more that you prioritize those things, the more, firstly, I mean, on a very practical level, you're going to meet people. So you're going to meet people who might be different to the current circles that you're you're in or you will amplify that but secondly it changes up your energy it shifts how you feel about yourself and how you feel it lights you up and the act of lighting yourself up it has an effect on people who meet you and the things that are drawn into your field and your magnetism exactly exactly and you're your most magnetic when you I mean I think everyone knows this I think everyone has felt probably felt at some point in their life

particularly magnetic when they're in their flow and they are feeling like wow like I just got a free cup of coffee and then I just got someone call me with a job opportunity or like all you know all those things and it's normally when you're feeling good about yourself and you it's rarely when you're kind of having a hell hellish day at the office um and prioritizing your joy can be really small things it can be like one of the things for me is a lazy sunday morning with a cup of coffee and a bed in but in a lazy sunday morning with a cup of coffee and a book in bed. It's a bit of a tongue twister. A bed and book?

In bed. A book in bed. It's the simple things usually. It's the simple things, exactly. It doesn't have to be, you don't have to make it late. I know that there'll be some people out there that are panicking thinking if they were like me like oh god I'm now not prioritizing my joy well enough you know and and those can often lead you on a path so my experience is it leads you on a path and you often you'll meet someone um that might to something interesting. And at the very least,

you'll just get in touch with what you like and what you don't like and get to know yourself better. For those that are listening to this, but they're in a job that's doing really well, they're getting a lot of opportunities as in you know they're not lacking in work there's their life is like full not necessarily like joyful but full but they have this kind of thing like I don't really feel like this is what I'm supposed to be doing and that niggling and they're also people pleasers so with all the opportunities that come in and people being like oh can we do this with you and they feel that obligation to say yes because they're flattered or they think it it might be an opportunity in their mind is going oh you should do that it might lead

to something how do they kind of get off that train i don't know if I have really excellent advice for that because it's a long process I think if you I'm still working it out like because do you feel like you've now with what you're doing even though it's really aligned you still can feel like because before we were recording just to add to our listeners like we were both feeling well I'm feeling totally overwhelmed and like spread thin but I'm also doing a lot of stuff that I really love and it's hard to discern like okay well why am I feeling so hectic and again it's like I'll be doing things where people validate it like oh you interviewed that person that's amazing this is all going really well I'm like but I feel like I'm unraveling and so try even just trying to connect to myself you know feels kind of hard

right now yeah because I don't feel like I have I feel like there's a lot of noise. Totally. Well, it's a constant practice. It's a constant practice. It wasn't that I realized back then that I was a people pleaser with zero boundaries. And then I just overnight nailed it. And so I still find myself in, in those situations. I'm doing something that I absolutely love like much like you I I there are days when I pinch myself and the work is incredible the people that I work with and it's so inspiring um but I still struggle with boundaries and saying no and so as a result I can be I can have workaholic tendencies and again that's confusing because it's confusing to feel burnt out and overworked at this at the same time as feeling a huge amount of gratitude and inspiration and love for what you do. And I think it's being able to hold all those kind of multiple truths that exist and have a lot of compassion and kindness for yourself

because it doesn't help to be hard on yourself in those situations. And I think a lot of people are very, very hard on themselves. And awareness. think a lot of people are very very hard on themselves um and awareness awareness is I think there's a misconception that all of these things are healed in your life but I've started to realize I don't think you ever really do heal them I think you just bring more and more awareness into your life and so I don't know if I'll ever stop being a people pleaser or that I'll ever really crack having excellent boundaries that it's just the awareness of when exactly people pleasing or falling into that pattern because I think you're so right I when

people are doing the work and they recognize and they recognize that they are they go oh my god I'm repeating that pattern again I blast like a blah I can't believe I just said blast that's what my mum uses like her excuse of a swear word it's such a like mum wordy but when they're thinking I can't believe I'm doing this again. And then they start beating themselves up about it. And like, I've done the work, why am I still doing this? But actually, I think that's such a useful distinction. It's like, no, the evidence of the work is the awareness that you know that you're doing it. And then you can make different choices. But if you then start berating yourself in the process, it's like, it's not going to get you anywhere. Exactly. I love to bring my perfectionist tendencies into my personal growth and healing my spiritual life.

I'm like, why aren't I a Buddha that's like completely unfazeable? Because I think in that space, it can become almost like competitive to be the most enlightened and that's a whole level of bs oh yeah yeah yeah i mean the ego is sneaky it sneaks into everywhere and there's a lot of ego in even like personal growth and spiritual identity goes big yeah exactly and so I think I think kindness and compassion is just such a simple answer to whenever you find yourself maybe going into that spin or that spiral think you know would I would I be talking to my best friend like this if your best friend came to you and was in your predicament would you be kind of yeah like would you be talking to them like that and and it takes quite a lot of discipline to

catch the way you talk to yourself because no one else can hear and sometimes I think we don't even acknowledge it I definitely am guilty of that I'm like why do I feel really depressed and then I realize how awful my internal monologue is and realize oh that's probably why and so hard on yourself for expecting yourself to be able to do everything perfectly and if you make one mistake yeah but everyone's everyone's winging it absolutely everyone's winging it and that was something that I found quite a lot of comfort in is when I joined the startup that was one of those moments in life where I learned that practically no one knows what they're doing and everyone's learning mostly on the job and everyone's just working it out as they go along and some people have worked it out already in which case great call them and ask them if they've got any tips

but other people most people when they were first presented with whatever the challenge is whether it's a relationship challenge or or a work challenge they're just working it out in the same way that you are as they go along but most but there's obviously this culture that we have of presenting a perfect hysteria and this massive misconception that everyone's figured it out and we're the only ones that are kind of fumbling through and And that's why the networking organizations, like the kind of founders organizations and startup networking groups are so successful. Because for anyone who knows what it's like to be an entrepreneur and deal with the wave after wave of seemingly endless problems to solve. When you find your crew of other people going through the same thing, and that's why community is so important, so important, because it can be the entrepreneurial community,

or it could be just like your community within Saturn Returns of people who are going through similar things in their lives it is the most powerful thing I've had because obviously that's one of many things both you and I personally but also in what we do work-wise have in common but I've felt recently in everything that I'm going through the thing that I keep coming back to is I need to be around like I need to physically be around my community of Saturn Returns to just feel like to remind myself why I'm doing what I'm doing and who I'm doing it for because you can get really caught up in the day to day of running a business and being an entrepreneur and being a founder and get a little bit lost in it and like you said having community as well for

work where people can kind of give you a bit more of a guiding light is also tremendously helpful because it can feel quite isolating otherwise yeah definitely I think it gives me perspective perspective is the best thing because I can sometimes get very caught up in my own little world. Me too. And then what's quite funny is that then when you go and connect with other people and you talk to them and they share their challenges, often I think, oh, I think I'll keep my challenges. I know it's awful, but there's nothing better than realising

you're not the only one that's struggling you're like okay good we're all in the same boat none of us know what we're doing I'll carry on yeah exactly exactly and that maybe my challenges weren't as bad as they and I don't mean that in the way that I need to go sort of start yeah yeah exactly exactly but I think it's just perspective it's really good to get perspective and I think it's really difficult it's really easy to get caught up in our own little melodramas it's very true and perspective comes in so many other ways as well like travel traveling often gives me a lot of perspective I love to travel because I will get so caught up

in the kind of my life being the center of the universe, wherever that is. And then I go away somewhere and I'm like, huh, there's all these people living completely different lives where I don't even exist in this universe. It's so true. It's so true. and as a final thing like for anyone that might be listening to this that is let's say engaged or in a relationship in a long-time

relationship and just feeling like they don't know what to do or perhaps in a career that they want to get out of like what would be your final piece of advice for them having been someone that's gone through that and made very difficult decisions given the sort of the tapestry of your character as being someone that desperately wants to please what would your advice be I think my advice would be just to be really brutally honest with yourself, to get really as honest as possible. What if people don't know how to do that? Yeah, I think, I mean, honestly, my process, I couldn't have done it without the support of a professional. So I really would say that, and there's so many different types of professionals.

It doesn't have to be talking therapy there are so many different things that people can can yeah help with um and I think that's a form of seeking community and seeking help get help basically whether that help comes from a trained professional or whether it comes from community or you don't have to figure it out alone you don't have to figure it out alone and I promise that whatever it is they're going through they're not the only one I often remind myself of that and I think I was listening to an Oprah Winfrey podcast or something and she said from all her findings of all the interviews and the people that she's spoken to, that there is not one thing that someone is experiencing

that hasn't been experienced by someone else. And I find that so comforting because we do get really caught up in our own experiences and stories. Like no one else has ever felt heartbroken like this. No one else has felt like they're in the wrong career this month or whatever it might be and it's really freeing to know that there are plenty of other people that have and it's about finding those people I think and connecting with them that can alleviate so much pain and then you can realize the the boundless possibilities that previously felt completely impossible.

Because for me, the thought of cancelling my wedding and quitting being a lawyer, at one moment in my life, was totally unthinkable. And I wouldn't... And yet here you are. Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you, madam, for coming coming on thank you for having me and sharing your story I feel like you're the first like community member of Saturn Returns to share

on this podcast so I I really loved having you on and having this conversation I'm sure our listeners will too yeah thank you so much. I hope you enjoyed listening to today's episode and that it was something a little bit different. I found that the way Manon spoke about her engagement ending and this decision to have this massive career pivot was really inspiring because I think we all know that feeling when our heart is guiding us somewhere else and the struggle and the courage that it must take to actually listen to it when society is telling us to do the opposite and this

episode really reminded me of the importance of our own internal guidance system and I really love what she said about kind of embracing in and knowing that at her truth she has this sort of gypsy heart and I definitely relate to that and so it was a reminder to me to trust the feeling and trust in the unfolding even when you don't know exactly where that's taking you. So I hope it inspired and helped some of you that might be feeling a similar sort of way. As always, thank you so much for listening and remember, you are not alone. Goodbye. Bye.