Saturn Returns with Caggie - Africa Brooke on Self-Censorship, Integrity & Leaving the Cult of Wokeness

Episode Date: May 19, 2025

In this powerful episode of Saturn Returns, Caggie is joined by Africa Brooke - speaker, writer, and cultural commentator - for a conversation that challenges conformity, celebrates courage, and explores the path back to creative authenticity. Africa reflects on the pivotal events of 2020, a time marked by division, identity politics, and performative discourse, and the personal reckoning that led her to publish her viral open letter, “Why I’m Leaving the Cult of Wokeness.” She shares the emotional and psychological toll of self-censorship, the complexities of public-facing activism, and how reclaiming her voice became an act of profound integrity. Together, Caggie and Africa revisit their first podcast conversation and reflect on how their perspectives have evolved. They dive into the cultural impact of social media and AI, the fear of vulnerability in creative expression, and the importance of returning to sincerity, both online and within ourselves. This episode is a must-listen for anyone feeling trapped by the pressure to conform, afraid to speak freely, or longing to reconnect with their creative truth. ✨ Topics Covered: 🪐 Africa’s journey through self-censorship and cultural pressure 🪐 The open letter that sparked global conversation: “Why I'm Leaving the Cult of Wokeness” 🪐 Redefining integrity in a polarised and performative age 🪐 The impact of social media, AI, and echo chambers on public thought 🪐 Reclaiming voice, nuance, and critical thinking 🪐 The vulnerability of true creative expression 🪐 Overcoming fear and returning to music and authenticity 🪐 Balancing visibility with sincerity in a hyper-connected world — Thank you to our sponsors, Fushi, for making this episode possible! I created a beauty blend with Fushi to give you that glowy, dewy look. It features Fushi’s freshly pressed, organic oils, which I swear by! This glow-boosting ritual is all about simplicity, self-care, and deeply nourishing your skin.  Shop ‘Caggie’s Glow Ritual’ bundle now at fushiwellbeing.com and get 20% off with the code CAGGIE20. If this episode resonated, don’t forget to follow, share, and leave a review. Your feedback helps us reach more people seeking clarity, growth, and self-understanding. Discover more from Saturn Returns: 🪐 Instagram, YouTube and TikTok 🪐 Order the Saturn Returns book: Click here 🪐 Join our community newsletter: Sign up here 🪐 Explore all things Saturn Returns: Visit our website 🪐Follow Caggie on Instagram: @caggiesworld

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Or just click the link in the show notes. Here's to slowing down, tuning in, and letting your skin glow naturally. Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. My guest today is the one and only Africa Brook, an internationally recognized consultant, speaker and author whose work delves deep into the realms of self-centred integrity and the courage it takes to live in alignment with your truth. Africa's voice has become a lighthouse for so many navigating the fog of modern discourse,

especially in a time where saying the wrong thing can cost your voice altogether. Her honesty, insight, and her unwavering commitment to integrity has not only shaped important conversations online, but has also helped countless people reclaim their inner authority. As we get into in this episode, this is not Africa's first time on the podcast.

She was one of my, I guess, early guests and we discussed when she came on during the pandemic and we became fast friends. So it's one of those, we have one of those relationships where like the podcast conversations that we have very much mirror the conversations we have as friends. And I just find her one of the most exciting people to speak to because you just leave feeling alive and elated. And she has just such wonderful perspectives on things. And one word that I always use to describe Africa

because it's a word that I want to embody more myself is I feel that she's incredibly considered. She considers everything that she puts out. She's very grounded in her approach and it really shows in the work that she does. So I hope that you enjoy this conversation and take something away from it, whether you're going through your own transition, whether you're struggling with self-centred ship or we also touch a lot on creativity, which I feel is a very potent thing

for many of our audience listening. So I hope you enjoyed that as well. Welcome back, Afa Kavruk. Thank you. It's been so long. We were just talking about this just before. When you and I would have sat down for the first time on Saturn Return was late 2020. I had just moved into my place and we recorded it in my spare room and there were boxes everywhere

because we had to move from the sofa and then moved into that little room. And that was, it will be five years this year. That blows my mind. Yeah, yeah. That that was five years ago. Five years, half a decade. It feels like it was last year.

I know, I know. I guess I'm thinking about it in this moment in time. Do I feel significantly different to what I did at that time? Because I can't really remember the specifics of what was going on. But the fact that it was five years is crazy. But I'm so glad that we get to do it again. Me too. So, I mean, because over the last five years,

your journey has gone on like some crazy, unexpected, you've just like exploded online, you've had a book deal, you're now doing this new podcast. Like, what has that felt like? I know you just said you can't really remember what was going on. But if you can kind of reflect over what the last five years has kind of brought to your awareness. So I think it will be natural then to sort of pick up from that time that you and I sat together and what was very present then. So it was September, I believe it was September 2020, yeah, because I'd just moved in. So at that time, I was in a very deep disillusionment with the things that were happening around me, in the sense that I already was doing very public-facing work

in terms of my writing and my voice. Pretty much what I do now, it just looked a little bit different. I was still talking about the intricacies of self-sabotage, which is what we did an episode on. I was still exploring what it looks like to speak bravely and courageously. I was still kind of doing pretty daring work at that time. And it was at the tail end of my work being so focused on sobriety, and the transition was kind of moving into more cultural, a cultural curiosity from a psychological perspective. But at the same time, I was just experiencing

so much self-censorship of my own, where in part of the communities that I was a part of, activist communities, social justice, even sobriety communities, I felt like there were so many things I was not allowed to say. And when you think of the timeframe, this was specifically 2020, there was the racial reckoning with George Floyd, there was the lockdowns were happening,

people had different ideas of how it should have been approached. And we were going into the conversations around the vaccines. So there were so many things happening that were pushing us into this very binary way of being. Are you with us or against us? What decision are you going to be making? Are you keeping everyone safe and how are you choosing to do it? There was this level of just intensity in relation to you have to pick a side.

And friends could become enemies depending on those sides. Absolutely. And we hadn't even seen what was coming. What would then come the following year? So for me, I was doing this very brave work in a public facing way and had been for years at that point in time. And at the same time, I was really struggling with my own opinions, feeling like I have wrong opinions, because a lot of them went against the grain.

Actually, you and I connected very well in terms of that. Because a lot of the things that I thought, even just questions that I thought, even just questions that I had, things that didn't quite make sense to me, things I didn't believe in anymore. So that was a very fertile time for me, but it was also really confusing because I knew that

if I'm to continue encouraging other people to be brave and courageous, I'm going to have to be patient A. I have to be doing that. I can't be living a sort of double life where behind closed doors, I have all of these things... You're not practicing what you preach. Yet, 100%. And then around that time, the time you and I would have sat together was when I was journaling quite a lot and writing things that would then become

the open letter that I published in January 2021, which was called Why I'm Leaving the Cult of Wokeness. And that letter was me making a very open declaration that I'm not going to be playing this game anymore. Whatever this game is where we're constantly walking on eggshells and we're constantly afraid and policing ourselves in our minds, and we accept that, so we start to police other people. And that letter, I published it on the 1st of January

to my newsletter to begin with. And then I realized that I was still being a coward because my newsletter was very safe. It's my community. If anyone has something to say, they might reply, but only I get to see it. There's no audience, you know. So I knew that I had to share it publicly.

And I think at the time, my community slash audience online was maybe like, maybe like 80,000 people. Still a sizable audience, but... There was a different... Something was just very different in that timeline of the pandemic where most people are at home, everyone is looking online. I mean, careers were made in that time and things were exploding in a way they never would have

because everyone was watching. So there was a different vulnerability to sharing anything really, anything. In a good and bad way. In a very good, both, both. And I remember knowing and feeling so deeply that if I just keep this letter, and it was 4,000 words, 4,000 words of why I'm leaving the cult of wokeness.

And I know that even some people listening to this, when they hear that word and that term wokeness, they might have ideas about who I am as a person, my thinking, they might assign some kind of political leaning to me. Because it gives people a very visceral response. I don't know if it's still as intense now, but at that time... Oh my goodness. But I knew I would be...

I'm a coward if I just leave this to my newsletter, and I keep hiding, but I'm just hiding a little bit less than I was a couple of days ago. So I share it on my Instagram, and this thing just explodes in a way that I just... I didn't expect that at all. But when I look back now, or even shortly after, I get it, because we're so identity obsessed that for a black woman who is supposedly left leaning,

and I say supposedly because I've never had an alliance to any kind of political leaning or political party for that matter. And I think because I'm an immigrant, I experience things very differently. It's not as simple as saying, oh, I'm labor or I'm a conservative. There's so many intricacies to that experience. But when you look at my values and what I stand for, they're assigned to what it means to be left

or what it means to be a feminist or what it means to be a good person. So I know that it was very jarring for people to see a black so-called left-leaning woman speaking in the way that I was, saying that I don't agree with certain things, saying that I reject identity politics, saying that I, the culture of intolerance that even I have participated in, I'm not going to do it anymore. That I will not stand for black people being infantilized and almost being pressured to be a very specific way

and to be saved from themselves or the world around them. I just didn't believe that. So it was a rejection of victimhood as well, which for whatever reason, it really makes people uncomfortable when they believe that you should be a victim and you say, no, actually I'm not. They're like, but yes, how am I supposed to save you? You know?

So there was a lot of that in my mind because I knew that's what was going to happen. And it did a little bit, where there were people that experienced a very high level of cognitive dissonance because they were used to a very specific version of Africa. And I was introducing something very new to them, or parts of me that I had never allowed other people to see.

And I think within two weeks, maybe two and a half weeks, it had been read by millions of people. And this thing just took a life of its own. And because what I wrote in that letter, which is still available for people to read, tapped into so many things that are timeless, because division is timeless, polarisation is timeless. So anytime anything would happen in society, people would reference that letter again. And even to this day, if anything is happening in the world, that letter is referenced.

So it continues to live and live. But it freed me, Kage, in ways that I cannot even explain. And because it wasn't a selfish undertaking, in the sense that I knew, I held that discomfort because I knew what it was going to do for other people. Not just other black people or other people that look like me in terms of identity markers, but the level of fear that people had. And I wonder what your experience of this timeline was, because you and I had conversations.

The level of fear that people had from 2020 onwards was unlike anything I've seen before. In our lifetime, yeah. Oh, my goodness. In our lifetime at all. Especially in the Western world where we sort of... we consider ourselves to be intrinsically free, you know. We don't know what it looks like to kind of truly be unfree. But to find yourself being a prisoner in your own mind,

even with the smallest things. Because it didn't have to be big things at that time that you could be exiled for. It could be anything, even a question. You didn't even need to have a solid opinion. Just a question. So that's what was happening for me at the time that you and I first sat down, and then the months that followed, and then the way everything sort of exploded in terms of my message, the message that I had been bringing out into the world before around courage

and brave expression and what it means to take relational risks and conversational risks. It was just crystallized in something that felt more solid and true, and something that wasn't fragmented, in helping people to remove self-censorship and look at the ways that they're sabotaging themselves by policing their thoughts. So that was sort of that period of time. And also to be able to express it in the way that you did. I'm curious to know from writing the piece,

how long did you spend writing it and then how long between writing it and actually publishing it? Mmm, that's a good question. I started journaling before the actual piece itself. I started journaling around July 2020, when there was the intensity with the racial reckoning. And I was journaling what I believed were kind of supposedly wrong thoughts around what I should think about race and what I should believe about it and the approach that I should take as a black person

and the responsibility that I have to make sure I align with certain opinions. It's a lot of pressure. Even as I say it, it really highlights the fact that, especially when it comes to conversations around race, I can't think of any other race on the planet that has so many expectations, moralistic expectations placed on them in terms of how they should think and speak and behave. And anything that they do that goes against the grain is a betrayal to everyone else who shares the same race. So it was a very difficult thing to experience

because I agreed with a lot that was being said. I agreed with the need for questioning our relationship with race and the way that we approach it and the privileges, the many privileges that we all have that we're maybe so unaware of because we've always had them. I agreed with a lot of that. But the victimhood aspect, I did not agree with at all. I didn't agree that just because I am black, for example, I shouldn't be questioned or challenged in what I'm saying. I did not agree that if someone disagrees with me

or they tell me that I'm wrong, that it's racism by default. But all of these things, with as much ease as I can say them right now, is with as much resistance and fear. I'm sure. Yeah. But I could write it, but I could write it and say it to myself. So it was that self exploration that allowed you to kind of find, because you've, I've always really admired that quality in you, that you do

that work in private before you put it out publicly. And that's across the board with everything you do. You're incredibly considered with all the work you put out. And I do believe that that has a sort of ripple effect on how people receive what you have to say, because there's this very centered groundedness with what you communicate that feels like, you know, she's really thought about this. Whereas I feel for a lot of people, especially around that time, what they were getting called out on,

canceled for, was not in that way. Like they'd, you know, put something on Twitter and they'd go make a cup of tea and they'd come back in and they were like, oh my goodness, like, stop. Stop what's happening. And that feeling of kind of being out of control, which again, like perpetuates that fear piece that everyone's like, I'm actually afraid of accidentally saying something.

Not just saying something that I actually really feel, but saying something that's going to be misinterpreted because of the landscape of social media and how everyone can take something and twist it and you can be misunderstood. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, you're so right in that. I think my foundation of sobriety and how long I've been sharing and speaking about things, even the period of time where I was exploring sexuality and how we sabotage ourselves sexually, I can't remember if we had that conversation or tapped into it as much, but all of that taught me how to have risky taboo conversations in a tactful way.

Such a skill. have risky taboo conversations in a tactful way. Such a skill. Yeah, it really is. But it's just that at practice and a skill that you harness and practice over time. So I think by 2020, and here's the thing, I want to make it very clear that I had also been very reactionary at points in 2020 because of the pressures that I felt around how I should respond

to what was happening racially. So even though I didn't do it with intensity, I contributed to some of the callouts that were happening. I felt that my sobriety community hadn't said enough about the killing that had happened around George Floyd. I felt like some of my white community hadn't said enough about the killing that had happened around George Floyd. I felt like some of my white friends hadn't said enough. But it was a brief period, I think for about two weeks, with intensity. I really bought into this thing of, by virtue of the people around me being white,

they need to be speaking about this. But also where it gets even more egoic for me is that even when they spoke, it wasn't enough because I expected them to speak in a very specific way. And that was a big thing that was happening at the time. You couldn't get it right. You couldn't get it right. You couldn't. You couldn't. You say something. You said it wrong. You didn't say anything. You should have said something. You should have said something. You should have said this. Like, it was...

If you breathe, you're taking up space. Well, okay, there was no getting it right. And because we were looking at everything through the lens of identity, it was just, it was very sinister and very disturbing when you look at it now. That was the cult-like nature of it that I then referred to in my letter.

Where you're sort of punished and gaslit, but you're also encouraged to bring yourself forward and bear yourself and expose yourself and self-flagellate and it will still never be enough. It will still never be enough. And even I experienced that. And then that's when I was like, oh my, like, what am I doing? What am I, what am I doing? These are my friends. These are people I've known for a long time.

These are even strangers. What am I demanding of people I don't even know? But what do you think that was or is? Cause whilst it might not have been something we've experienced before, and it was such an extreme time, it's a quality that human, or a characteristic that human beings possess. Yeah. I think it was a combination of...

You know that idea of the madness of crowds? You know, when you're in a crowd and you start to behave in a way you wouldn't normally behave because of the safety of a crowd. So it allows... You're sort of anonymous within the crowd. You're anonymous. And even when you're not, the shadow aspects of yourself feel safer to exist because everyone else is doing the same thing.

So it's a very odd thing because it's also like arousing in a way. It's power. It's almost like it's power and control. You feel, especially if you felt so powerless, you feel so powerful and in control. And when you're telling people what to do and say and behave. And especially, and I've thought about this so much, Kage, in that, let's say in your everyday life, you're so powerless. You're not in control of how you work. You're not in control of anything.

Maybe your relationship is going down the drain, your relationship with your family and you're financially unstable. There's so many things that are happening that just make you feel so powerless and hopeless. I can see why someone would then go online, a place where you get to pretend that none of that exists. You build this kind of self-righteousness and this sort of avatar of who you are. And you get to control other people, but you have, you couldn't even tell your

child to go and put this in the sink. They'll tell you to piss off, But you can control geopolitics online. And also because it's relatively new that you can access anybody today. So especially of someone that actually does occupy a position of power in their day to day life, whether that's because they are a celebrity and have influence or they are a politician. So something like the person that can't tell their kid to put the plate in the sink is able to directly attack

that person and also then generate a crowd around it. And that must feel very intoxicating. Intoxicating is the, and everyone gets fed. I think that was it. I think that was it. I think for me personally, it was that combination of fear and having this false sense of responsibility that with the platform that I have, because that was a big thing too,

oh, you have a platform, so you have to say something. So I think that was a big thing that I had. And then that resulted in the intoxication because of the response that it got. It's like a well done. You've done what you were supposed to do. Even if I knew that this is out of integrity, this is not... Like it doesn't even feel nourishing.

It feels so cheap, you know, it doesn't even feel nourishing. It feels so cheap. You know, it doesn't feel... Yeah, none of it was reaching my heart. It was just in the mind. The validation was just from the neck up, you know. And also not for you personally, but for a lot of people, it was at the cost of bringing others down or actually really... That's what I find so alarming looking back is how dehumanizing

the whole thing was for individuals and the witch hunts that were going on. And it was like things coming up, you know, because then it kind of snowballed into, oh, if you said something in an email like 10 years ago, you're going to be this crowd coming for you. And it was, again, it's not a new behavior, but it was just quite extraordinary to witness. It's very primal, isn't it?

It's very primal. I think we, when we look at even terms like council culture of whatever we want to call it, or being exiled, or publicly stoned, or just all of these things, I think we see the modern manifestation of it and we believe that it's something new. Like, what suddenly happened to people? No, it's not new. It's so ancient. It is so ancient in nature.

And at that time, you really got to see it. I think that's when I really made the conscious decision to lean deeper into shadow work for myself, but looking at it on a collective level, because you saw people's shadows really come out to play. You really, especially your own. Right, especially your own. Let's not talk about that ever again.

If you're willing to be honest and think about your own shadow, the way in which it showed up in that timeframe, whether you were repressing, saying absolutely anything and shaming yourself and maybe guilting yourself because of your race, et cetera, that's still shadow. Or whether you were in the forefront doing the very loud call outs. And I think you can get so much interesting data on yourself, because I think what's harmful, and then I'll continue to kind of go back to where you were talking around,

when did I begin writing the letter and the space between. But I think where it can get harmful if you deny the way in which you participated in the collective shadow, especially at that time, you will just repeat the same thing over and over and over again, if you're not already. And I find it quite scary where some people will almost brush that timeline under the carpet as if it never happened. As if they were not shaming their family members to get the vaccine

or you'll be killing all of us. Refused to have them for Christmas. Right, right. The amount of emails that I got from people who were not allowed to see their children, speak to them, go to family gatherings, go to funerals, go to them, go to family gatherings, go to funerals, go to weddings, divorces that happened. And so many divorces happened in that time. And-

Because of the divide of- Yes, of vaccines and the race and the vaccines. Yeah. But looking, cause like you say, a lot of people have kind of brushed it under the carpet, but you know, I have a lot of friends that are quite heavily, and I'm sure you do too, that are more in the sort of, let's say conspiracy theory room, which is now just basically just accuracy.

It all happens. The accuracy community, I think we are. But at the time, you know, their perspectives on it, and I still don't entirely know where I stand on this, but it's one school of thought that's just worth bringing up, is that it was more intentional, some of the guiding, the powers that be, or the systems that were like, okay, let's actually see how people respond to this. Because fear is a really powerful weapon.

Yes. And when you can start being able to kind of make people use it against each other, they're kind of doing the work for you. Absolutely. And then when people kind of like, oh, that was weird behavior. But it was like almost like a test of, okay, this is how we respond. And also before I forget, I wanted to mention, because in terms of it not being a new behavior, do you remember when they did that TV show? I

only actually remember the scene, but it was like when they were following the lives of like four year olds at school, so they were secretly filming them. So I think it was like the BBC or something, it was a really long time ago. But of course we always view children as like the innocent and like they get corrupted by the world. But actually what this showed is like, they are fucking savage. And they would do this sort of crowd, heard, shaming, bullying, ganging up on one

and they'd all kind of get involved in it. And you just realize like it is part of our nature. It is. It really is. It's more of a learned skill to not do that. 100%. It's socialization almost makes you aware of all of those things. But then that's when they get repressed in the shadow. Because you're told, you need to be good, you can't do that, you have to share, et cetera.

So you know socially you can't do certain things, but then it gets repressed and they come out in different ways. And it's so fascinating, isn't it? And so in July is the time that I started just journaling. Everything we're talking about right now, I was just writing it down. And by the end of that year, I remember just sitting down in December, late December, and on the last day of December. And I was just sitting down and I started journaling on my laptop

instead of my notebook. And I was sitting there for maybe two to three hours just pre-writing in the way that I would journal. And then that was the open letter. I didn't sit down thinking I'm going to write this thing that I will publish. There was no strategic thinking behind it or any over-editing. Even when you read it now, the way that I write it is conversational in so many ways. It's like I'm just riffing on the page.

It's not, there are some typos in there. I'm not trying to be academic. I'm not trying to, I was just bearing myself to myself. Then by the end of it, I knew that I had to share it. Yeah. And then I did. Gosh. I mean, powerful. Thank goodness you did.

Because we're talking about that time as if, you know, it has been a long time, but as if today is very different. But I'm curious from your perspective, has it become entrenched and normalized or has it softened? Oh, that's such a good question. I think we've softened a little bit. And the reason I say that is because if we hadn't softened, you and I wouldn't be comfortably having this conversation.

No. Also, it was not really sustain... I don't be comfortably having this conversation. No. Also, it was not really sustainable. I didn't hear sustainable. That was the second thing. Everyone's tired. They're like, all right, okay. All right. Everyone's...

Come please allow me to inspire someone else. It is tiring too. And the level of Kage, the level of mental gymnastics required to keep up with this, it is cognitively exhausting. To keep up with this level of like constant thought management, voice management, opinion management, and there's a social aspect to it as well, where you kind of know everyone. They're saying this, but they don't really believe that. There's like a... But then you're not just doing that offline. You're also doing it online with strangers.

It's... It is so unsustainable that I think a lot of people backed out because it's just, yeah, you can't keep up with it. If you're... I hate to use the word normal, but I'm gonna use it anyway. If you're just a normal person, just trying to go about your day and your life, and you have other things to worry about, you don't have time to keep up with this.

Also on a broader sense, there's been so many other things that have happened in the world that have been so huge. And real crisis and war and awful things that I think on a level of consciousness or otherwise people are probably, this is not something to be arguing about right now. Although you say that, but what I do think is the context of what's happening has changed, but the kind of mechanism and the thing is still very much there. Because if it's not race, then it's about how lockdowns were handled.

Then it's the vaccine, then it's what's happening in the Middle East, then it's what's happening. So it always, it's almost like it never goes away. You are speaking about it. You're not speaking. Exactly. It's still, that is still very much there. Who's speaking, who's not speaking, but we don't have the same level of intensity as we used to. That is the big difference that I see. I think. And of course we can't like, gender has been a huge one over the last couple of years.

Yes, it has. It has. And I think especially at the time we're talking about 2020, 21, 22, that was a very touchy, difficult conversation for people. And I think it still is. It still is, especially in America with the changes that have happened. Absolutely. Absolutely. But just from where I'm standing and my work and being so engaged with this work every single day and with thousands of people, there is a big difference.

I think people have more of a willingness to sit with a discomfort, say, actually, I don't agree with that. No, I'm not going to perform online for you. No, I'm not going to buy into the idea that speaking up only looks like sharing an infographic. There are different ways to do things. And also, there are many things happening in different parts of the world. We are all silent about something. There's that kind of awareness

now, you know. And I think it is because of the level and the many different things that are happening simultaneously, where we start to realize, oh my goodness, this is very close to home for me, and it's what I am mainly seeing in the country that I live in on the news, but there are so many other things happening. How could you possibly expect everyone to speak about everything in a very specific way? So I think that thing of treating ourselves like a 24-hour news cycle, we just don't fully believe that we can do that anymore, you know? Because to dehumanize someone else in that way by expecting that, that means you expect it off yourself too. You know? But I feel

really good because I do believe that the tide has turned in a way that feels noticeable. But what do you think? What do you feel? The only thing that's coming to mind at the moment for me that I've noticed is like, I've had a few messages from people. I just find this extraordinary, which is that they will start off and they will say, I've noticed that you follow Conor McGregor. And then it will go on to basically say how by me following him, because he obviously had something in the press, there was like a sexual harassment lawsuit. I haven't followed it to be completely honest. I don't know the intricate details. I know he's done something wrong, but the message is basically saying,

because you're following him, you're perpetuating this behavior from men. And like almost putting some of the responsibility for his behavior onto me, which I just feel is so misdirected. And I've like, I've refrained from replying because it just doesn't feel like it's worth my energy. And I'm not going to resort to just unfollowing him

simply because someone thinks that they're behaving in some kind of righteous way by spending their day going online, checking who follows him. I'm like, you're not doing anything that's helpful. I hate to break it to you, but you're really not. And you're far, but like, it's the thing you said about the power. And the control, it's just that, the control. And it feels like, again, when you start to look at these things through the lens of what happens in a cult, you start to really see, again, just how disturbing it is.

But also I think it can help you to know that this is not worth responding to. This is not someone who is well within themselves because there's the whole monitoring element, which is pretty much what you're talking about. When you feel like, I need to protect the people that are a part of this group. So I need to make sure that everyone is behaving in the way that they need to. So I need to look at people's following list to make sure they're not following anyone harmful. And then it's, it's, it's crazy.

Madness to me. Yeah. But do you think that there is some level of, because now people have these platforms, right? And you have your platform on social media, as do I. There's often this narrative that because you have this platform and this audience, you must say something about all of these things that are going on in the world, even if you have no education or understanding of them. And I find that problematic, but because I don't think,

you know, by putting up a sharing a post or putting up, is really necessarily contributing in any meaningful way. But that's not the point I'm trying to make. The point is, have we lost faith in our justice system or trusting that those who are actually in positions of power to do something about these crimes? Yes, yes, yes. That we don't feel that they're able...

Do you know what I mean? I think that historically perhaps, or maybe not, used to be a time when we'd be able to say, you know that's going to be taken care of by the people that are supposed to be taking care of it. Whereas now it kind of feels like it's more collectively spread. That's such a good point. Immediately as you were talking,

I thought of this idea of, it's just a lack of trust. I think we're all so disillusioned because when we think of the people that are 100%, that when we think of the people that are supposed to so-called protect us and make the best decisions for the collective and justice is supposed to be served. And I think we just have so much experience and evidence of being let down. Also at that time. That we start to 100%. Because that was simultaneously going on wherever we were like, we cannot rely on these people

that are supposed to be guiding us. Absolutely. Because the idea that you couldn't go even to your mother's funeral or you had to have funerals on Zoom, but there were cheese and wine parties happening simultaneously, crazy. So I can understand it. But I also think though, even before that specific timeline we're talking about, it has been happening for a while,

and social media has really allowed it where we place so much responsibility for everything that is happening in the world onto anyone that has a so-called platform. We equate platform with power, but almost like the same level of power that government officials have or the courts have. So it's just very bizarre. But I guess in a way you could argue that that has happened. Yes. You know, you look at like Elon Musk and his level of influence politically. Yes. Okay, yes. But are those exceptions though? Do you think we also have the tendency to look at the exceptions

to look at the exceptions of people who have a platform and actual power of some kind, and then think a gym babe with three million followers has the same level of power. She needs to be speaking up. But I think that that is what's going through people's heads. And where I can also get it, because with all of this, I think you really have to do try and see why people would behave in the way that they do, so that we don't become self-righteous and believe that they're just silly and stupid.

Why are they doing that? I think it makes sense because raising awareness is absolutely a thing. There's so many things that have happened in the past, even five years or 10 years, that would have never got the same public attention had it not been for people raising awareness and sharing something. So I wonder if it's actually more so about, can we be discerning and look at the context of something?

And can we also give people the option to use their platform, but also accept that they might choose not to for their own reasons. But the shaming people to perform a level of activism that is not actually real, do we care more about how it looks instead of the reality of what it actually is? So I think it ends up bringing about kind of more questions that we can ask ourselves. Because I do think raising awareness is something as important, whether it's someone that's missing, whether there's been a crime, whether there's also the reality that if someone is black or brown or non-white and they go missing, it's just less likely to get the same public attention

as someone who's obviously a Westerner. So that level of awareness can make a difference. But I just think- It can be incredibly powerful. 100%. But I just think if we're looking at it in a context by context lens, once it comes to things that are massive complex geopolitical issues and things that

are things that you yourself don't even understand, the expectation for someone else to just say something post anything can actually do more damage. Can actually do more damage because the misinformation is, it is actually a real thing. It is actually a real thing where people will put out things that are not actually true at all, or a story comes out about someone, this person did this and immediately people are sharing it without even, is it actually true? Yeah. That happens all the time.

without even, is it actually true? That happens all the time. So I think there's a balance that we could maybe even just try to strike, you know? Cause I think it's not about getting rid of the need of if I have access to 300,000 people and there's something important that needs to be said, I will say it, you know? And also recognizing that the way the online space is designed is to create your own echo

chamber. Mm hmm. Yes. So you may think that this is how people think, feel, behave, but that is based off what you are engaging in and it's feeding you more of that. Yeah. And all you'd have to do is go and spend time with someone that lives a very different life to you, or not even that different,

and go onto their phone and spend time on their Instagram, whatever it might be, and you will suddenly be hit with the realization that your world doesn't... It's not how everyone views it. It's not the world. It's not the world. It's such... That's such a good point,

especially because I think it grounds all of this in practicality. Everything we're saying in that our algorithms are literally very different. They're designed in a way that is so personal to you. And it's not just in the context of memes. It's with everything, news included. Because something that hit me in the summer of 2020 when I was like, why is no one speaking up about this thing that's happening? And then you realize, wait, this person's in Kenya. They don't know what's going on over here. This person, and then you realize, oh my goodness,

they might not even be from the same country that I am from, but because of the globalization of technology. And I wrote about this in the third perspective in that we think everyone's in the same room. And it's a thing called context collapse, where there's no context online. There used to be a time, let's say early days of Facebook or MySpace or whatever, called context collapse, where there's no context online. There used to be a time, let's say early days of Facebook

or MySpace or whatever, where you're mainly just speaking to your friends and family and people you know, and maybe someone you went to school with five years ago. And that even felt like, oh my God, someone that I went to, but now it's a strange, it's anyone. You and JLo are in the same room. You can DM, you can actually do. You, and that's crazy, you know?

So there's no context. And also, and another thought that I had that adds to this, there's an assumption too, that you're speaking to people that are the same age as you. But most people on social media, you could be speaking to a 10-year-old or a 12-year-old. Could be arguing with a 10-year-old. And we don't think of that because there's no context. So you assume that everyone comes from where you're from, they believe in what you believe in, but they're also the same age as you.

But actually, you're all in the same room, and you're all very different. So for me, that was very... It injected a much needed dose of humility for me to be like, oh, wow, it's, yeah, I'm in this echo chamber that I have curated very intentionally myself, but my algorithm continues to tighten that echo chamber. So it's actually important for me to even follow people that I disagree with. So if someone is combing through my following list

and says, oh, I saw that you follow Candice Owens. Do you know that she said this and that? There would have been a time where I would have been so afraid and just like, oh my, and immediately unfollowed. Really? Oh, absolutely, absolutely. But now, it doesn't even reach me in any way. It doesn't feel like anything, but it felt terrifying before,

because you feel outed. That's what it can feel like if you're afraid. But I guess that's almost the intention. 100%. And you're supposed to apologize for it. You know. On a slightly different way of looking at it, let's say you have researched something,

discovered something that for you feels very much the truth about a situation, and you want more people to know about that truth. I think there's a slight lack of respect and acknowledging the reality of other people's circumstances, situation, age. Like, let's say I find a piece of information or something that's like world shattering and just kind of breaks all, like your idea of what reality is.

And I find that exciting because I'm 35 and I'm like, oh wow, this is a new way of looking at the world. How exciting. If I share that with someone that's 70, and I think you have to listen to this or you have to read this because this is like how people need to be thinking about the world. It's not taking into account the fact that they might not hold the capacity that they may not want that. Yes. You know, and I think that that's something that we don't, we don't respect each other's, I guess it's kind of a thing of boundaries really, isn't it? You know, we just kind of ram things down people's throats and be like,

no, this affected me in this way, therefore you also need to consume it and have the same response that I have. Yeah. It's the dehumanization, isn't it? Because I think there are layers to how you can dehumanize someone else. And I think robbing someone of their own worldview is one way, and forcing your worldview onto someone else is another. And it sounds like that's what you're talking about, where you truly are so tied to your self-righteousness,

and again, that sense of control that you get and that intoxication you get from being right and being correct and having the world view that is approved, you know, and expecting someone else regardless of their historical context, where they're from, their age, what they've experienced, what they've been through, the fact that they were a baby and then a toddler and then a 10 year old and now they're 70, but you believe that you hold, you know,

the answers to what is true for them. And that's insane. So entitled. It's, but it's so, I love the conversation we're having. And I know that most people listening to this will also appreciate it because when you say these things out loud, you realize just how absurd it is. Um, which is why, whether people like him or not,

something that Jordan Peterson said many years ago, which I really, um, admire and agree with, is that idea of... looking inside your own home first before you try to fix the world. You know, that idea. Can you even maintain control in your home? But you're out there in the world trying to.

And it's a really humbling way to think of it. Like, oh my goodness, am I even managing my own day? Have I even had a shower? But I'm telling people this is what they should do about the Middle East. Because it's easier in a way. It's easier. It's easier. And you get to avoid. You get to avoid real life.

You get to avoid sitting with your thoughts and your opinions. You get to avoid interrogating your own worldview. You get to avoid actually saying, I don't know. I don't know. I don't have the answers to that. Or this is actually just my opinion, but it's very personal to me. Billions of people have very different ideas, you know. I think you used the word avatar earlier, but it feels like that. And with the way everything is moving at the moment

with technology and AI, what do you think that's going to mean for people in terms of their online presence and who they are in their day-to-day life? I don't know. I haven't thought about it consciously as yet. So maybe you can jump in and share, but immediately what comes to mind is that it just reminds me why critical thinking is more urgent than ever to me. Because before AI exploded in the way that it has, even two and a half years ago, you know, it

wasn't in this way. Two and a half years ago, I don't think even chat GBT was something that people used and then they just wasn't. But now most people can't imagine their lives and days without it at all. Which is frightening. I know. I know. So we're reducing already. And again, I'm not anti AI, etc. I think

there's a lot of utility to it. But I think we're already removing so many points of friction where we don't have to think. We don't have to think. We don't have to say even a simple text, you can plug it in and then you don't even have to think. It's so frictionless. You don't even need to form your own thoughts. I know. You can sort of just say a few things and it will do it for you. So how does that influence you?

That's better than what I would have come up with. Yeah. So you trick yourself into thinking that is you, first of all. You trick yourself when actually you've just prompted it or it's you've given it something that is not even necessarily a good prompt, but it kind of has an idea of what you might mean. And then you trick yourself into thinking, okay, I'm cultivating thought. This is what I think and believe.

This is my worldview. But then where to me it gets a little bit concerning is that you then go out into the world where you don't have it right there for the time being. It's not plugged into you for the time being. What do you actually think? What is your opinion? And if you're not exercising that in any way.

If you're not exercising that through discomfort and testing your ideas in real time and even periods of silence. There's so many things that I am curious about, think about, see in the world, that I just don't share publicly. And it's not self-censorship. It's because I want to talk to Kage about it when we meet up, you know. It's because I want to just sit with it.

They're just my thoughts and my opinions. I don't hold tightly to them. And it's been a beautiful thing actually to see that you can use discernment. That to uncensor yourself doesn't mean you say everything. And then that's an act of courage. I think courage can also be in the silence, but it has to be very intentional silence that isn't grounded in fear, you know. I think a lot of people's thought processes at the moment is like,

they think of something that's like, oh, I can share that. Or like, you know, it's immediately jumped to how can I make that something that people will receive from me? Yes. It might impress them or something. How can I make that something that people will receive from me? Yes. It might impress them or something. 100%. And I think even tying it back to the AI piece, even in how people create and put out their ideas on platforms, where there isn't much space for contemplation, people will have an idea, plug it in, and it will give you so-called content for two weeks, and you just post that and build an audience based on that.

But is it actually your thought? Like, what do you think? And I don't think there's anything wrong with it full stop and using it for support. But in terms of it being the default, I just worry that our critical thinking skills and our discernment skills are really atrophying in a way that is so concerning. We're not going to need to use them. No, you won't need to use your mind. You won't need to use your brain.

You'll have a digital brain. And that's what, like, obviously it's like so appealing now. Yeah. This is the most incredible thing that's ever been invented. And in many ways it is. Yeah. But at what cost? Because when we actually cannot, you know, we said,

this is really quite a new thing. And the fact that people can't even imagine their lives without it. Without it. It's a bit frightening. What do you think the cost is, even in the context of what we've been talking about, the role of like AI and people not even being able to discern, you see a video or a photo, you're like, is that real? Is that not?

Before, AI was so terrible that it would have eight fingers. So you're like, oh, that's not anymore. Like, so how do you think that kind of impacts how we interact and how... It is quite jarring to see. And I think where it can, you know, I don't like to think of this very often because it's not the way my mind is wired, but in terms of a more sinister use of it

for people that scams, you know, preying on the elderly who are so vulnerable to this kind of technology. I mean, we all are, to be honest. Like the way that they can call up someone with the voice of their daughter and say, mom, I need you to transfer this money into my account. Like it's really, it is very concerning about how it can be weaponized. But then in terms of the more, you know, how individually we deal with it, I think that we're moving into this time

where there is this kind of polarity. You can see online, there's this real need for kind of getting back to the earth. I think a very popular thing is like slow living or like living off the farm. And it's like very romanticized, but I think there's clearly a reason that people are drawn to that kind of life

and people wanting to kind of go totally off grid. Yes. But then also it's impossible to not recognize that we are moving so quickly into this world that is growing in a way that we cannot keep up. And I do think there are elements of it that are incredibly exciting and that we can use to our benefit. But like you said, it needs to be balanced out with the critical thinking. There needs to be the individual discipline of going,

I'm going to use this to do all of these tasks that would take me a lot of time, but it's going to really help me. But I'm going to use the time that I've created by doing that to really sit and consider things and spend time on my own and journal and be more philosophical about things and really get in touch with how I feel, think and like want to be in this world. Whereas I think what's happened, unfortunately, is it's kind of, and this is from my own experience, it's like sped everything up, but we're not using that space that it creates. We're actually then like trying to do something else, like flooded with more information and

imagery and trying to do like 50,000 things that's all fragmented, rather than letting it create more space for us to actually just be human, you know? Yes, yes. Agreed, agreed. I couldn't have said it any better myself. And I think with conversations like this and many others, people just starting to be curious about the way in which our world is changing, I find that everything seems to lead back to, just give yourself the gift of thinking for yourself. Even in the simplest ways,

because I think, again, even when you say thinking for yourself, people are like, conspiracy theorists. It's so crazy how we've kind of created all of these. The term is, it's called thought terminating cliches, where people shut down a conversation or a curiosity by maybe saying, you're a racist, you're a misogynist, you're a conspiracy theorist, you're a,

to just shut down the conversation from going any further. But I think coming, returning to that idea of, let me just give myself the space to consult myself. What do I really think about this? You know, I find that people seem to be finding their way back there a little bit. I think it's happening slowly and in waves, and I always check in to make sure

it's not just my echo chambers and it's actually real, you know, but I'm excited. I'm excited for the world that is moving very quickly. But I think in that exactly as you say, there's a desire to return back to simplicity always, always, I feel. And also one of your I think this is like one of your main pillars is remaining in integrity as an individual in a way that if no one knew and you could never share it, that's what integrity is. It's like who you are when the world is like not watching.

Absolutely. And with the being able to use AI to let's like, you could use it for so many things that would create an illusion about who you are. And you may achieve a lot of external success by doing that. But if you're out of integrity, it will never feel good. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Agreed. I do what because I know like you at heart and same with me, like consider ourselves artists, but what is that? Like how do you think that looks in today's world? Because that is something that I feel has been hugely disrupted and continues to be and the artistic industry is like terrified.

I know. This is probably the thing that is most present in my mind and on my heart right now. Because even when I look at the people closest to me, particularly women actually, there's a deep desire, including yourself, there's a deep desire to reclaim the artist. I keep seeing it everywhere. And I also think a big part of it is to do with our gorgeous friend, Amy McNeese, who's like,

we need your... You're an artist whether you like it or not. But I really do find even in the most intimate conversations I'm having with people, there's a deep desire to reclaim the artist within them, the playfulness, even people that have been part of the music industry or creative industries, where they realize that their art is not supposed to exist in industry. Which I think there's a big disillusionment for a lot of... What do you mean by that? As in it needs to be more an individual expression?

It's not a corporate venture, absolutely. It was never meant to be a corporate venture in that way. Not meaning that they were never supposed to have an audience or success from it, but it being part of the industry and corporate world is a very different thing. And it kills people's creativity. Oh gosh. It's really heartbreaking.

It's really heartbreaking. But there's so much beauty in the artists who are either detaching from those industries and going independent and creating for themselves and realizing that they build their communities and audiences themselves. Because also, if you're part of a big label, for example, industry artists, let's just say music, for example,

you don't have direct access to your audience. Every single email, sign up for the tickets, the millions and millions of people, James Blake speaks about this quite well. You don't have direct access to them. If you leave the label, it's not like they give you a list of all of the data so you can reach your audience that you've been building for 10 years, 20 years.

And I think there's just people do not realize that. Even like, I suspect this is why Rihanna hasn't put out enough. Yeah, yeah. I've been saying that too. See the accuracy, the accuracy community. But I think there's so much extraction, you know, but the other side of that. From creatives. Yeah, yeah. So much.

It's awful. So much extraction. I'm sure you have you experienced this in kind of dipping your toes into maybe even the industry side of things. Yeah. And I feel that it's, for most people, it's totally unsustainable. And that is also heartbreaking. And I feel a deep call to return to it. But then there's always this voice that's like, but how can you make a career out of that?

And I think the danger that we're in is, I feel like people can see on one hand, they're like, okay, AI could be really powerful, and it is really powerful, if we actually allowed this to, for us to then have space to be creative. Yes. And to put music and art out into the world. Rather than, like, what some people's school of thought is, is that it's like, oh, well, the AI will do it better than all of you anyway,

so we'll just, it will just replace, you know? And that is really heartbreaking. It is, it really is. It's... There's so many things in terms of the art and artist conversation. And for me, on a personal level, I have, and we've spoken about this before, before I was writing in the way that I do, before 2016, I was always writing music. that I do, before 2016,

I was always writing music. I still do write music and sing. And it's just my creative outlet. It's why I feel the most joy. It's why I feel so free and playful and creative. And I've always written scripts and plays. There's a play that I'm working on right now. And then when I started doing the work that I do

from 2016 onwards, it kind of moved me into a space that I love, but it's very much intellectual. That idea again of the neck up, very analytical. But I enjoy it because I'm me, I'm still able to add like a almost artistic flair to the way that I think and explore and speak and still play, you know. And it's true to you. And it's very true to me. And at the same time, I think in order to be taken seriously, we end up putting the

artist to the side. And it's amazing how so many... What because it's like if it's not received in a certain level of success, it's a failure. There you go. I think it's that idea that if I'm not doing it so it's a career, if I'm not doing it so it has some kind of monetary outcome to it that's tied to success, then it's not really... It's quantifiable that, yeah, it's not worth pursuing.

There you go. There you go. And that, I think, you definitely notice when people get older, when they're in like their 60s, 70s, they start doing the thing that brought them joy because they suddenly have the space, perhaps they've retired, they don't need to work. And they're like, you know what, I really love the guitar. I'm gonna start playing the guitar.

I really love the piano. Can I learn the piano again? I wish I never dropped that. And it's my wish for myself and for other people that we don't wait that long. Thank you. Thank you. And I, but I think that's the beauty of what's happening right now, I think. But maybe it's my own echo chamber too, where I think people are being reminded that you can still...

explore your creative pursuits and not be over attached to a specific outcome. You get to just paint because you want to, you get to just draw because you want to, you get to write a song, you get to take your camera out or your phone out and make a short little film, you know. Like, I think we have so many limitations

about what it means to be an artist. I even had the same thing with being a writer, and maybe you did too, where, as I was writing the book, there were points where I realized that I wanted to be taken seriously as a writer, to the point where I was stripping away my true voice from it. And I'm so thankful that I had an editor that was like, And I'm so thankful that I had an editor that was like, Africa, this is objectively good,

but I can't hear you and feel you on the page. No one else would ever be able to tell, but I know you enough to be able to tell. Because you've been so focused on the outcome. Absolutely. And who am I writing it for? And how the... My reader is going to be experiencing the book instead of just what it is, you know.

Well, it's like Rick Rubenow says the audience is the least important and also to do something to the best of your ability that feels right for you that you love and then the rest is out of your control. It's so hard. Do you practice that? Even with the podcast or even? I do, but it's very similar to you in that the podcast is like an aspect of me that's very authentic and I adore it, but it's probably more in the mind. Whereas music for me is my real Achilles heel. That's my vulnerable spot. But it's also the thing that brings me the most joy.

And so does poetry. But I struggle with putting out, I always find a million reasons not to. And a lot of them circulate around, you've left it too late, it's embarrassing to still be doing that. It's not going to be successful. So what's the point? And the idea of criticism in that particular area, I find, because it's my most vulnerable, I find that I shy away from it. Yes. And something that you said just now, or even the feeling even, that I felt as you were speaking,

is something I've been thinking about when I uncovered last year that I had... There's so much vulnerability for me creatively when it comes to being seen, being sincere. So I think people will kind of think the fear to be seen, right, it's like a big thing, the fear to be seen. But I realized that for me specifically, because I really drilled down into it. Like what is sure the fear to be seen is what it is,

but it's more specific that it's the fear of being seen, being so sincere about something, like wanting something. Caring about something. Yeah, it feels kind of embarrassing a little bit to be so sincere. Like this is my song, I'm so proud of it. Or even singing in such a sincere way. I can appreciate it in other people and love it. But the shadow is that I won't allow myself

to be completely seen in sincerity. And I was like, oh my goodness, that's the specifics of what it is. Why do you think that is? I remember the time where I was young, and I think I was singing or showing someone something. I was singing. And then they didn't say anything negative or anything. They were kind of just watching.

In fact, they might have even been sort of kind of smiling or acknowledging what I was doing. or acknowledging what I was doing, but there was a flash, a very quick moment, very quick moment, where I... interpreted whatever that expression was as they didn't like it. And I was washed with embarrassment. Like, completely. I think I continued, but I was just like, so embarrassed. And then by the time I started drinking at 14, you and I spoke

about the entire thing. I could only sing if I had been drinking or if I made people look away, if I made people turn around, like turn around and then I'll sing even with my partner, my ex who played guitar. I would tell him to turn around and then I'll be able to sing. But it was that. That moment. Yeah. And it was so brief, so quickly. It feels so insignificant.

How could it have such a... But I saw it. Yeah. I actually think mine's really similar because I always have this flash come back when I'm talking about this stuff. But then I think, I rationally think there's no way that could have caused it. Cause my anxiety around performing, like I, I mean, Tom has never, my boyfriend has never heard me sing.

He always asked me, he always tried, he's like, he'll sing and I just completely freeze. Like I, and it's, it's worse around when it's just like, if it was, I'd find a thousand people easier than one. Yes. And if it's someone that's really, really close to me, like intimately, that is like absolutely not. Me too.

But when I go back to the sort of core memory, as we're kind of discussing, I remember my half brother had come over and he was staying with us and I had like closed the sitting room off and I was like playing Madonna and I was singing and I was like dancing and like performing on the sofa and then suddenly I heard this laughing and I turned around and he'd come in and was laughing at me. I honestly think that that is what stopped. Because again, it's like you said, I'm humiliating myself. Like I am doing something embarrassing. And I'm being sincere in doing it.

And I feel like that, because that's what always comes up. I'm like, that must be it. Because nothing else happened. But I have such a visceral response to this day around performing. But the irony is when I do, and I haven't for a very long time, I've always been like, this is the best thing ever. That you have to tear me off the stage. So it's really paradoxical and confusing.

It is. I can't thank you enough for sharing that with me because even my ex, my most recent ex, he was a musician too, which is just amazing that I... The thing that I have around music and art is so intrinsically within me that I, even without knowing they're a musician, the person that I'm with or choose will just end up being something to do with music. But he was a musician, never heard me sing, ever.

And he would tell me to and encourage me, I couldn't do it. I would physically just not be able to do it. And then immediately I'll feel sort of shy and embarrassed and then immediately I'll feel sort of shy and embarrassed and then even upset and then I just, because I know I could literally just, even just can't do it. And my ex before that, who I was saying played guitar and we wrote something together, I was drunk. It was before I got sober. When I was sober, I couldn't do it. And which means in sobriety in nine years,

I haven't sung to anyone. And this year, what I know I need to do, and I'm so excited to do it, is to free my singing voice, because I'm so brave with my voice in every other area of life, but it's not true bravery if I don't free my singing voice. I love that. And that feels big, but very exciting,

because it's such a vulnerable thing. I wouldn't be able to... He'll be like, baby, just, you can sing, just do, or I'd be singing in the shower because he'd be doing something. And then I'd kind of just get into it. And then he would maybe come and stand in, he's like, sing louder, and then I stop.

Yeah. I know, I'm excited to say that. And I want, but again, it's that sincerity. And I was so thankful to tap into it. And I just invite anyone listening to this or even just engaging with this conversation to think about that idea of where are you afraid to be sincere?

Because when you and I have spent time together and we've talked about this, we've always kind of ended the meeting being like, we're going to hold each other accountable in this part of ourselves of self-expression and where we hold ourselves back. But I think we have. So it's going to say, have you been, because I have not been doing what I've been telling myself I'm going to do. But to be fair for you, you released breakfast. You released a song. But I then kind of like. You released breakfast, you released a song.

But I think kind of like... Never spoke about it again. And then I blame being pregnant, you know, there's always something like, oh, I got pregnant, so it was distracting. But like, it's crazy because the way that my mind, and I guess it's a form of sabotage, the way that my mind will be like, I know you can't do that right now. Like you have these other things to do. And it will add things onto my plate so that I can't do the one thing that I've actually, you know, it's like we say do 90% of the work and then you're like, yeah, but that 10% just can't happen.

I know, I know. It's one of the biggest things that I am really committing to confronting this year. And not confronting it from a place of frustration, I need to get rid of this thing or work. It's like an integration. It's like you are an artist, you've always been. Music is where you feel the safest.

It's a gift that you give to yourself. And you're allowed to also share it with others, you know. And you will meet the most courageous, bravest you by just standing there and allowing for people to see and hear your sincerity. Because I don't want to live a life where I'm just fragmenting myself and withholding. Because to me, it's withholding. I've thought so many times when I was with my ex, I would think, imagine how deeper we would be in intimacy if he'd heard me sing.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Or even kind of seeing me sing and then dancing, just being free. Imagine I would always have the image and know that I could literally do it right now. But the fear would just be so overwhelming that I couldn't. I'd be 10 again, you know, and seeing that little thing in someone's face and not being able to bear the idea

of seeing it in his face or anyone else's, you know, that's not true. That's not what would happen. But it feels, yeah, I guess that's the thing you've got to kind of move through that fear. Yes. Yes. And the only way you can do that is by putting yourself out there in that way. So we're making another accountability. Making another pact.

Making another pact live. I, yeah, I, you know what? We need to write a song together. We should write a song together. I would love that. Because that's also vulnerable in itself, writing something and singing together with someone and with a couple of my musician friends, they're going to be taking me to the studio so we can just play. Because I think it's lowering the stakes for me. That's also important. I don't want to think I'm going to write a song and then perform it.

Just play. Let's just play and see what happens. But that's all it is anyway. Yeah. That's, I think, how you have to view it. But it's like. That's all it is anyway. Yeah. I think how you have to view it, but it's like we put so much pressure on ourselves. Yes. Yes. Okay. Albums coming out. Oh my God. I'd be all over that. Do you know? it's amazing. I'm so glad you shared just very specific things tied to this that I just haven't had anyone share.

Especially with the sort of juxtaposition of being so visible in so many other ways, but still having a part of you that you like, but not this. I think that's why people find it really strange, because they're like, but you're so open and vulnerable and you put yourself out there. And you put out music. Yeah, but I guess it's the performance piece. Yep, yep.

Africa, thank you so much for joining us again. Thank you, my darling. I love this, and it was so lovely to see you. And you too. That's not so lovely to see. And you too. Thank you so much for listening to this conversation between myself and Africa. If you haven't yet, I highly suggest grabbing her book,

The Third Perspective, and of course following her online at africabrooke. As always remember, you're not alone. Goodbye.