Saturn Returns with Caggie - Binge Eating, Navigating Relationships and "Instagram Therapy" with Dr. Annie Zimmerman

Episode Date: November 11, 2024

In this episode, Caggie sits down with Dr. Annie Zimmerman, a London-based psychotherapist known for her compassionate, psychodynamic approach to therapy.  With a PhD in psychology, Dr. Annie Zimmerman is dedicated to helping clients understand how early life experiences shape their current behaviours and relationships. Her insights on these patterns, especially around attachment and trauma, have resonated widely, partly due to her social media presence as @your_pocket_therapist—where she shares accessible, psychology-based tools. Dr. Annie Zimmerman is also the author of Your Pocket Therapist, a book designed to help readers overcome unhelpful habits, heal past traumas, and create meaningful relationships. Together, Caggie and Dr. Annie discuss: 🪐Dr. Annie’s struggles with binge eating at university, and how this led her to pursue a career in therapy 🪐 Navigating difficulty in relationships, power struggles and attachment patterns 🪐 The rise of "Instagram Therapy" and how it can be both helpful in providing education, but also problematic when people start diagnosing their partners based on pop psychology terms they've learned online 🪐 The importance of finding the right therapist fit, and not feeling discouraged if the first therapist isn't a good match — This episode was made possible by our friends at East Healing. Visit easthealing.com today to explore their full range of acupressure products and start your journey to enhanced well-being. For a limited time, you can enjoy an exclusive discount with the code ‘SATURN15’ at checkout. Follow or subscribe to “Saturn Returns” for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn’s return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. You can follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram and subscribe to her Substack “You Are Not Alone" to stay updated on her personal journey. You can also find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok. Order the Saturn Returns Book here!

I have long been a fan of Chinese medicine healing tools, so I am delighted to share our partners for this season of Saturn Returns, the amazing East Healing. Formerly known as AcuSeeds, East Healing is the UK's leading ear seed brand and a luxurious destination for holistic health enthusiasts, blending the ancient art of acupressure with modern elegance. You may have seen them receive investment from Steven Bartlett on Dragonstone back in January. My mum gifted me an AcuSeeds ear seed kit for my birthday this year and I've been a fan ever since. These small beads are placed on the ear to stimulate pressure points, helping aid stress,

anxiety, headaches, sleep, and improve overall wellness. I love their luxury take on this ancient healing tool. Their collection includes 24 karat gold Swarovski crystal, pearl, and nickel-free options. Visit EastHealing.com today to explore the full range of acupressure products and start your journey to enhance wellbeing. For a limited time, you can enjoy an exclusive discount with the code SATIN15 at checkout.

Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. Today I sit down with Dr. Annie Zimmerman, who is a London-based psychotherapist known for her compassionate, psychodynamic approach to therapy. With a PhD in psychology, Dr. Zimmerman is dedicated to helping clients understand how early life experiences shape current behaviors and relationships. Her insights on these patterns, especially around attachment and trauma, have resonated widely, partly due to her social media presence as Your Pocket Therapist, where she shares accessible psychology-based tools. Dr. Zimmerman is also the author of Your Pocket Therapist,

a book designed to help readers overcome unhelpful habits, heal past traumas and create meaningful relationships. The book combines therapeutic insights with practical advice to empower individuals to ask the right questions for personal growth and self-awareness. I hope you enjoy this conversation. Hello Annie, welcome to the Saturn Returns podcast. Thank you.

How are you doing today? I'm okay. I feel very rushed and it's nice to sit and calm and take some time. Yeah and just be fully present. Exactly. But the audience that might not be familiar with your work, would you be able to share a little bit about who you are and what you do? Yeah so I'm Annie, I'm a therapist, I have a private practice in London and then I also have a social media, which is Your Pocket Therapist, where I talk about all things therapy, relationships, mental health. And I've just written a book, which is called Your Pocket Therapist, which is basically a therapy survival guide. Everything is condensed into bite-sized chunks. So it's taking kind of complicated therapy concepts

that I think people are really hungry for and wanting to learn about themselves, but in a really easy to understand format with lots of stories and exercises. And that just came out. How did you get into that work? Therapy? Yeah. So I come from a family of therapists. Oh, wow. What was that like growing up?

Lots of talking, lots of analysis. Lots of feelings. You don't want to be at our family meals. I probably do. I would love it. It's great. So it's always the women. So my mom, my sister, all of my aunties on both sides are therapists. Oh wow. That's fascinating. Yeah. It's like being raised with the religion almost, but the religion is therapy. And yeah, I feel like I kind of grew up in that world, but then it wasn't until I actually had therapy myself and I was very resistant for a long time.

But then... Because of your family being... I think so, yeah. I think you can kind of feel like, oh, that's not my thing or it's not something that I need because I have a language of understanding. Yeah. But then I experienced like the life-changing impacts of therapy on my life.

What brought you to therapy? So I struggled with eating disorders and it was more binge eating actually. I just couldn't stop eating large amounts of food all the time. And you don't really think that that was a mental health problem. At the time, you kind of think, think that that was a mental health problem. At the time, you kind of think, okay, eating disorders are anorexia or bulimia. But I just can't stop eating. And so I was really resistant to therapy because I was like, why is talking, this has nothing to do with talking, this is like a food problem.

I talk about this in my book, I tried everything, you know, like, all of the diets and all of the different tricks and counting to five and going for a walk and all these tools that are very like cognitive but nothing really emotional. And then I went to therapy and realized, oh, this is an emotional issue. Like I'm not feeling my feelings, I'm eating my feelings and going through that process. And when did that start? The binge eating. The binge eating, yeah. It's hard to say.

I think it was when I went to uni for the first time. It's such a time in your life, kind of like Saturn Returns, but a bit earlier where you're having this massive transition identity crisis. You're away from home. All of the separation anxiety that comes from that, but also the like hyper-independence. You feel like an adult, but you're away from home, all of the separation anxiety that comes from that, but also the like hyper independence. You feel like an adult, but you're kind of not at all. And so much social anxiety, like you're suddenly having to make all these new friends and you're so aware of yourself and everything that you do and say. And I think

probably just that was a melting pot of I needed something that was going to soothe me because I couldn't handle my big feelings that I was having. And food is one of those things I used to work with people who struggle with obesity and such a common thing I would hear that really resonated with me is like, food has always been there for me when other people haven't. Like since I was a child, food was there and soothed me and helped me. And it's kind of become too much of a coping mechanism that I'm relying on it when I'm not actually in touch with myself. But we also have to respect that it's a constant.

And I think... It's not like any other kind of addiction or thing where you can just be like, I'm never having that again. You have to address it three times a day, every day. Exactly. It's the hardest thing. And it also gives so much so so many positives, like so much pleasure. So much joy can come to you. And it's so connective and to eat together.

And yeah, you can't just shut it away like a different addiction and, you know, go through withdrawal. You have to. But it's one it, I'm sure from your own personal experience and also working with other people, that it is such a complex piece to unravel. And lifelong. I think you can get a lot better, but I don't think once you have that relationship with food,

it's really hard to undo that completely and to never have a difficult relationship with it. And I think in a way, accepting that is helpful because then you know it might come back when you're overwhelmed or when you're going through a different time and that doesn't mean the world's ending or that you're regressing. It's just, it's a constant. And the process of healing isn't linear. I mean, to kind of add some of my own personal experience with that, I, it was actually when I was writing, I wrote about it in the Saturn Returns book, but when I was 15 and my parents got divorced, I think kind of I relate to

what you're saying about having big feelings and not knowing what to do with them. And I started to then, from observing someone else's behavior around food, learned that if I controlled it, it gave me this sort of sense of safety or like I was in control of my emotions. And then also I would ovary, I guess there's a spectrum to binging, right? Because for some people it means they might lock themselves in a kitchen and like order loads and loads of food to the point of then being sick or something and quite extreme. But then it also can, I think for me it was like eating to the point of being uncomfortably full. But I realized eventually that it was like I was equating a feeling of safety and love with the feeling of fullness.

And I thought for ages that I wouldn't be able to, and it created a lot of disharmony with my body. And for ages I was like, I'll never be rid of this. But then it was actually during my Saturn return and in my late twenties that I was like, I think I can change this mindset. So what was the kind of turning point for you? I was about to ask you the same question. Oh, it's funny with therapy, I think we're sold,

like there was this one moment, my therapist said this one thing and suddenly everything changed. But I think as is more common, it was lots of incremental changes. I learned to feel my feelings. I think it's funny you talk about love and connection. I think what's less glamorous is anger. But it's really common with binge eating that there's a lot of repressed anger because these things are happening and you...

It's really common. Yeah, you can't do anything about it. And you maybe don't feel that you can be angry. It's common in women who are people pleasers who need to be happy and good all the time. And then you've got this rage inside of you. And you're trying to like keep it down. You keep it down and then you attack yourself

because you can't express your anger. So you eat and you eat until you feel sick or until you're not happy with your body and then you're already taking out something in yourself. So I think learning to be angry and that that's okay and to express it not in an aggressive way and not in a destructive way but in like a constructive way. So I went through years of just kind of telling everyone I was angry with them whenever I felt it. I've kind of come away from that now but it was really important and cathartic,

really cathartic and it's not linear at all but I stopped taking out the anger on myself. And then therapy, were you able to talk about it in therapy? Oh yeah that's all I talked about. The reason I ask is because actually it's reminding me that I went to therapy for this specific thing and I don't think I ever talked about it. Which I'm sure is quite a common thing when people come to a therapist and they spend like 10 years and they don't mention the thing they went there for.

Why didn't you talk about it? I don't know. I really don't know. I guess it's just that sort of perhaps the ego or I don't know. Because I guess yeah, there's lots of things you keep out of therapy, because you just don't want to go there. Yeah. But there's other things you keep out of therapy because you just don't want to go there. Yeah.

But there's other things you keep out because you don't think it's related for therapy, you know? Yeah. And did you, from having like a family of therapists, did you, did anyone try and like, I don't know, therapies you in your family around this particular thing? Yeah, I think we all did to an extent, but in a way having my own therapist was really helpful

because I was able to then go to her in a really boundary way with all of this and put more boundaries in with my family in those terms. But I would say, yeah, I mean, there's no kind of right way to do therapy. A lot of people end up talking to their families about things that have happened in their past and that's really healing.

And other people need to not talk to their families and they do it just in a therapy room. And it really depends on the context where you came from. And then when did you actually decide that this was a career that you wanted to pursue for yourself? So I was studying my PhD in obesity and psychology at this time, and giving therapy in the NHS to people who were going to get gastric bypass surgery. So really struggling with their relationship with food.

And I was just sitting there thinking, I mean, I don't have your body, but I just like you. Yeah, the thought patterns. Yeah, I get it. And I think maybe that's why I was able to help and why I was drawn to it. But also I was like, I don't know how to help you because I've not figured out myself. So then going to therapy made me think, oh, actually, I think I've understood how people change and how at least I can try and help people change.

And that was just so rewarding. Did your work then really specifically focus on that area initially? It did. But I think as I healed, I became less obsessed with it. In the food world, there's so many people with disordered eating because it's like an addiction. Totally.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like it's just kind of redirected it to a slightly healthier kind of packaging, but it's still obsessional and dysfunctional. Yeah, and you see a lot of people who have a bad eating disorder, and then they move into the exercise or nutrition sphere. They stay there for a bit, and then maybe as they heal, they become kind of just,

it just becomes part of your life, not who you are as a person. So now I work with anyone who wants therapy and if they have food issues I think I'm in a position where I can help them but it's not like I need to be talking about this all of the time. And then in terms of sharing it on social media and developing an audience there, what have been some of your sort of observations about what's going on collectively with what people are seeking guidance or support with? So I, my obsession at the moment is relationships. So I think that's what I see people come to Instagram therapy for,

which is why I used Instagram therapy and why I'm such a big fan of it. You're in a relationship crisis, you don't understand what's happening. why is this person acting this way, why aren't they replying? And even though there's a lot of misinformation out there, it can be a real source of comfort and a feeling of getting back in control, like, okay, I'm reading about this, I'm understanding it, I have answers, I can put words to it.

When you're in the middle of the night and someone's not replying, you can't always have the best tools, but I think that's what people struggle with. And that's where all of the therapy speakers landed, to kind of in the relationships sphere. That's very true. And it's also, you know, relationships are where some of our greatest personal work happens.

And they are beautiful containers for that. But they are also incredibly challenging and we don't really have that much of an education around them. I actually did an event recently around love and relationships and two of the girls who came on were fantastic, but they were both single and we realized at the end, once we were doing the Q&A with the audience and stuff, someone put up their hand and said, there's a lot of stuff out there for people that are single and how to like, you know, what to do in relationship when you get into

one, finding a partner, what the obstacles are, what's going on in the world, the sort of complications of the modern dating landscape. But there's not that much for people that are actually in relationships, because there's something that happens that switches, and I think it only develops further when people get married, is you become a bit more hush-hush. So you don't share, and it might be a bit more of a complicated thing, or you feel like ashamed for thinking or feeling something or guilt about it. And so you sort of keep it contained in yourself. Whereas if you're single, it's like, you don't have the same obstacle.

That's so interesting you say that you're I'm just thinking about my friends and how much especially like female friendships you hear in the early stages about, you know, like their sex life and every text and every date and then something happens when it becomes more serious and those conversations suddenly can't really happen in the same way. And then they get married and then they don't happen at all. Which is sad because it's so important to continue to offload and to share vulnerably otherwise. I think that's where a lot of marriage relationships kind of become stuck

because you're not working through the problems because you're so afraid of admitting that there are problems. And also because people might feel that if they share then they might be weaponized against them or that you know people will go and talk about it and if you're in a partnership you obviously don't want that and I think there's a sort of social hierarchy that occurs with relationships. You know, there's like single, I don't believe in this, but it's like single relationship, married, married with children, you know.

So I think the more further up you get, the less inclined you are to share when there are problems happening. So from your work, what are some of the common things that people come to you with in terms of people that are in relationships that they're struggling with? Being unhappy in those relationships. But they're sharing this individually with you versus like...

Yes, which is what therapy is for. And being afraid to leave. I think that's something... And leaving isn't always the right choice, but it's something that so many people struggle with is knowing that it's wrong and what do you do then? Because the terror of them being alone and starting over again and maybe you have kids and you've committed and you've changed for this person

and then you have to leave or you don't. And I think people can stay in that paralysis for years, which is almost a worse place to be than just making a decision. Do you feel like they know that they fully know or they're a little bit like, I don't know, I'm unsure? Because where's the line, right? Because at the moment, I think there's a lot of narratives around perhaps more, again,

for people that are single that if it's not a hell yes, it's a no, and this person should be all of these things. And there's really extremely high and tall order of what we expect from partnership, especially when there are options galore and you only have to like pick up a dating app to kind of find a dozen people around the corner. So where's the line between pursuing something and persevering at a relationship that does require work versus knowing that it's just not right? I think that's the question so people are asking themselves because we're told really contradicting things like, yeah, if it's not perfect, if they're not the one,

just leave, if they don't meet all your needs and also make things work and accept people's flaws and work on the relationship and relationships are hard work. And if it's not a hell yes, it's a no, but also compromise. And it's like, okay. Yeah, and I, yeah, Esther Perel talks about this, that we live in like a swiping kind of generation and it's always, how can I do better? And that's a really dangerous

place to be because you're never satisfied. And also what better options are there out there I guess is what you what you mean. Yeah and maybe you need to become better rather I think another kind of big issue is blaming the other person for the dysfunction when it's always there's always two people in a relationship and you can't change the person that you're with and accepting that requires grieving for what you're with and accepting that requires grieving for what you're not getting and deciding whether or not this will be enough for you and also recognizing what you can do differently and people really don't want to do that because

that's the vulnerable work, that's the hard work and that's when you have to own your projections and own your vulnerability and dive deep, rather than just putting everything onto your partner as being the problem. Let's talk about some of those that you have experienced with the work that you do of the ways that people might project something that's more about them into a relationship. So I think the classic example is with attachment styles that you often have an avoidantly attached person and an anxiously attached person getting together. They're very attracted to each other because they are projecting.

They reinforce each other's beliefs. Exactly. And you nicely fit your projections to each other. So the avoidant person is like, I don't need anyone. I'm independent. And then finds themselves with a needy, anxious person and can project all of their own need onto the anxious one. So you're too clingy, you need too much, you're too demanding. When actually-

When you're like, so they're projecting actually their need for closeness, saying that you are wanting too much closeness. Exactly. But actually, they're just as desperate for love and intimacy as anyone else is. But as a defense to feel like they don't need anyone, it's really hard to accept and admit that. So they project it into their partner and they're like, you're too much, you're too needy, you have a fear of abandonment.

But really, they're not owning their need and their terror of being left, which I'm sure we all have. Because avoidants get a bad rep, don't they? Yeah, I actually try and fight for them online. Often men, as in women, will say, he's avoided. I know. And often they are, especially British men. Because I think they're taught you're not allowed to have feelings

and therefore you're not allowed to have needs. And all of that vulnerability has to go somewhere. So it gets repressed and then projected onto somebody else. Whereas women are allowed to be anxious, they're allowed to be needy, they're allowed to be demanding, clingy. So they can state those things and sometimes they become kind of turned up too much.

Whereas men kind of dial down all the feeling and all of the need. And then the anxious person is often projecting their need for independence and to feel like their own person with their own mind. And I think, yeah, if both parties can take responsibility for that, that's an amazing transformation and amazing growth. But it's really hard to do that when you're just one side, because you think the other person is at fault always. So you often see people coming to you

and they're like, my partner is to this, that, whatever, but you can see that actually it's a desire that they're not acknowledging in themselves. Yeah, it depends on the person. Sometimes you're sitting there thinking, yeah, your partner is terrible. Like, really, this is not good. Can you give me an example of when you think that?

I can't really disclose any real examples. But if it feels like someone is really being harmed. What about without names, obviously? No, I can't. Yeah, confidentiality. So I always feel like with people, when they write books and stuff like this, they always share like personal.

So you have to get their consent to do that, or you completely change everything. But if someone's being like emotionally harmed by their relationship, it's like I think sometimes the work is to help them leave. Whereas if someone is clearly contributing to a two-person dynamic, all you can do is help them to figure out their stuff. And you can't, as a therapist, tell people what to do, can you?

No, as much as I would. To be honest, I don't know what they're supposed to do. I think people think therapists hold all these answers and they... Therapists get put on a serious pedestal. Yeah, you expect. You walk in the room and you're like, right, you know exactly why I'm doing this and what I need to do and you're not telling me. People get really frustrated as if you're withholding the answers.

But you don't know. And I see my job as empowering people to figure out those answers for themselves. With each other, we do it together, but I wouldn't know what to tell people to do because only they can know. What are some of the other things you see about relationships at the moment? I think a big one really is people diagnosing their partners from Instagram. Something I think about a lot. He's a narcissist.

Yeah, he's gaslighting me. He's a narcissist. He's a void. There's a lot of that floating around. Yeah. And it's, I don't want to bash Instagram therapy because I think it's given so much, so much education to people about relationships, but it's been slightly weaponized. It's been weaponized and it actually shuts down curiosity and expansion because...

And also it plays into that sort of perpetrator and the victim of like, they're in the wrong. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. There's such a victim mindset on Instagram therapy, this idea that everyone else is bad and we're good and I don't think anyone is all bad or all good really. But I think that kind of highlights the fact that most of that stuff is around relationships because I think that's when we can most often fall into that victimhood mentality of like

the other person is the wrongdoer. Yeah absolutely and relationships are so difficult because they bring out all of our childhood trauma in a unique way that many other situations don't. Because trauma happens in relationships, mostly childhood trauma is because of your family relationships that were happening at the time. And that means when you enter an adult relationship, especially a close one, it can be a friendship too, but a romantic relationship is so intimate that all of your triggers come back. And I think I write a character in my book who's really successful,

she's doing great, all her goals are being met, and yet her relationships are just a mess. And I think that's so common because that's where she's wounded and so that's where it plays out on that field. But is it not valid to say that we can, you know, we do that healing in relationship as well? Because also I think a notion that goes around that I think is problematic is this idea

that we have to be healed and whole before we can find the right partner. And I think that stops people from putting themselves out there a little bit, like I need to fix myself more. Whereas actually, relationships are often the container where we do our healing. Yeah, I think that RuPaul quote, like, if you don't love yourself, how in the hell are you going to love somebody else? Has caused so many problems for people.

Because we have this idea that we're like in a vacuum and that we're healing. We do all this healing work and then we enter a relationship fully healed and nothing will ever upset us again. And then what we find is that we go back to square one because the relationship healing hasn't actually happened because all of those triggers were kind of... Dormant. Dormant, exactly. And then we're like, why a relationship so hard? And I think, you know, it's really sad. People who come from a lot of trauma find relationships so difficult. And we're told it's supposed to be Hollywood and happy and you should feel complete and everything's perfect.

Yeah, and then you're done and they get into the relationship. And it's it's horrible because you then have to face all your anxiety, all of your wounds, all your fears. You know, the desire to walk away just to get relief, the desire to stay and not be left and that obsessive thinking. And this plays out for years and years as the different kind of stages go on. To tie that into what you mentioned earlier

about the most common thing that people come to you with is not being able to leave. And then that particular piece around not understanding that relationships are work and it's not this sort of Hollywood perfect ending like we expect it to be. Where's the sort of right, like if people are listening to this thinking, but how do I know to discern between the two, whether it's right to stay or go. Not again that I'm asking you that you have the answers, but just to empower people that they might have the tools to be able to make that decision and not waste years.

Yeah, I think the question is, can I accept things as they are? If so, how would I then have to, because acceptance means grief. You have to grieve for what you're not getting or what you imagined you would have and isn't here. Is that gonna be possible for you? And then you don't have the resentment and the frustration and constant wondering if you should leave. Like, can you accept how things are right now?

And if you have that intuition saying, no, like, this is not livable, I will be miserable, that's really important to listen to. And I think, you know, it's worth staying and trying as much as you can, couples therapy for both of you to do the work, but if you are trying over and over again and nothing's changing, just getting really honest with yourself about the answer to those questions. And only you can know.

But I do think your intuition will tell you. Do you think that there's a really big change between people in their late 20s or in their 20s, let's just say, and in their 30s, 40s, in terms of how they are approaching this particular subject, i.e. in your 20s are you a bit more like, I'll just leave and find someone else, whereas does it change quite a lot from your experience as a therapist, that people, the older they get, are less inclined to change? Change a partner. I think, yeah, I mean, thinking about when I went to uni, Tinder didn't exist yet. So the idea that you can just swipe and find somebody else is revolutionary for relationships.

And I think it's probably loosened since our parents' generation, they kind of have a few partners and then get married at 21. And even before that, it was 16 or 17. So the idea of changing is like really new. And also relationships serve different functions. It used to be that you needed a marriage for financial independence or to raise a family and things are so so different now that it's like people are exploring different types of relationships in different ways.

So I do think the younger you are, the more able you feel to leave relationships. However, attachments are the same, feelings are the same, love is the same, fear of abandonment is the same. So I think some of the things that come up are also really similar to what people have always experienced, which is they want to be loved and they don't want to be left. And I think that's what kind of the fundamental issues and relationships come down to. In terms of this sort of the youth of today and their exploration of relationships in a way that, like you said, is because of dating apps or because of social media and the awareness of doing things differently,

would it be fair to say that people are exploring a lot of different types of relationships, polyamory, different dynamics versus what millennials and so on would have. Yeah, I think so. I mean, even just through TikTok, you're exposed to so many different ways of thinking and relating that polyamory barely existed 10 years ago. And now it's, lots of people are experimenting with it. And lots of people are experimenting with their sexuality in a really free way. Whereas before it was you had to identify as something and know who you were, whereas now people are just curious and exploring.

I think shame has really lifted in terms of sex and mental health. For everyone? No, not for everyone. But for some who were luckily enough to be born in a kind of Western society during this time, at the same time it's become polarized because we have the rise of pornography, which means that sex has then become completely misconstrued and people's expectations are all over the place. They're also really desensitized in some ways. Well, let's talk about that. Let's talk about sex. So with the people that come to see you, is that something that they might be struggling with in their relationship?

And does it differ from men to women? Yeah, I mean, sex runs through everything. Your sense of eroticism, your sense of who you are, dreams, your relationship to yourself. So people in relationships and not in relationships, they bring sex into the room always. Yeah, and I think sex is often the first sign of something going wrong in a relationship, that things are going well, things are, you're in love,

it's the honeymoon phase, you've got your oxytocin, and then we go into what people call the power struggle stage, which is where, you know, the difficult feelings start to come out and it's who holds the power and there's jealousy and there's, you know, all the cracks and flaws start to show and that's often, sex is often the first symptom of something not going right or I think a long term problem is people lose attraction to their partner, which is so common. And, you know, often the reason is because they've become too close and they feel like family members. And that isn't attractive because you're not supposed to want to sleep with your family.

So it's how do you maintain mystery and separation whilst also having intimacy and, you know, running a house and running a family together. Another contradiction. Right, and relationships and life is full of contradictions and holding both and always being aware that you want desire and separateness and also closeness and intimacy. And you have neediness and you have independence. And the more that we can accept all sides of those things in ourselves, the more we can accept them in others and hold the conflict

rather than getting drawn into one side. Because the power struggle bit, if we had to give it a bit of a timeline, because obviously people, the honeymoon phase, like how long roughly in general does that last, and then the power struggle phase, and then what's the next phase? I think it really depends on the individual's attachment and security and experience and just how you're triggering each other.

Because for some people, you know, you have that like really intense chemistry and you feel that it's amazing and there's love bombing and you get really enmeshed and then quite quickly one falls away and there's this struggle for power. For others you might be in bliss for two years and then as you start to commit to each other, say you move in together, this triggers another version of the power struggle stage because then you're like, well whose house is it and whose space is it and who's going to compromise and then you have to have all these conversations.

The reason I'm laughing is because I've just moved in with my boyfriend. And so it's like, it has brought up a lot for me. I was actually sharing like today. So I used to live around the corner. So my flat was just literally a stone's throw from here. And I've just rented the studio for today. And I literally, it's just making, I miss,

I miss the flat, I miss my independence. I miss that chapter of my life. I miss what it represented. I miss the space that I created that was just an extension of who I am. And I also love living with my boyfriend, but it's just, it's really hard balancing these two kind of conflicting emotional experiences and not knowing how to talk about it with people. Because again, going back to that like hierarchy thing, I don't want to sound like ungrateful because I know like,

for instance, my friends that are single looking for a partner, I don't want to be like, oh, I'm struggling, you know, because I've got a lovely boyfriend, we live in a great spot. But I've just found it hard to navigate what I'm feeling at the moment. Has that put pressure on your relationship? Probably, probably when I talk about it, when I say I miss my flat, which I think a lot, because I think that inevitably, you know, as human beings, this makes sense that he then will feel that it's a bit of a rejection. And it's not, but you can see how the two things can get quite intertwined, you know. And it's like you say, it's that power struggle of space and whose is whose and all that kind of stuff.

But it's also you as an individual balancing those two needs, separateness and closeness. To get that closeness, you've had to give up a bit of your separateness. And maybe that's telling you something that you need space for yourself, whether it's like emotional space or real space, in order to move into intimacy. Yeah, because it is that dance between the two, isn't it? whether it's like emotional space or real space, in order to move into intimacy, you know? Yeah, because it is that dance between the two, isn't it? And I guess for people, myself included, moving in together is such a challenge. It's actually a really challenging thing in terms of that,

because it suddenly shifts everything, especially if you're moving into someone else's space. Right, yeah. Or having someone move into your space that's always been yours. And it brings about lots of issues with money and suddenly you go from just kind of low-stakes dating to like sharing a bank account and who's got more money and that. We don't ever talk about that in relationships, but money is a huge factor in relationships that I think in a way those problems come out later on in your marriage where they should have been talked about you know who's got more money who's earning more

how is it going to work when we have kids what are our relationships to money is someone more comfortable spending and the other one's really uncomfortable spending and what does that mean for how you live your life you know there's so many questions. Presumably people don't really talk about it until they're married and then you suddenly realize you're on quite different pages about stuff. They say also, don't they, that, you know, what is it, money, sex, and I feel like there's one other thing that people usually come to therapy about. Oh, right.

Money, sex. I haven't heard that. I would say money, sex, trauma. Money, sex, trauma sounds great. Sounds like a book. I haven't heard that. I would say money's extra. Money's extra sounds great, sounds like a book. But is that true from your experience? I would say less money, but I probably work with slightly younger people.

Whereas I think money issues... They said they come later. Yeah, probably when you have more demands on your life. Like kids. Kids, yeah. Mortgage. And I think we also don't talk about the repetition of money trauma of if you grew up with your parents having a certain relationship with money, not a lot of money or a lot of money,

but you have a certain kind of, you know, maybe your dad lost their job. And then that was a whole trauma for you as a kid, recognizing that your dad was upset and anxious. And what does that do for the messages you're told about how you have to? And I think men feel this especially. I'd be really interested to unpack that actually, because I've not had anyone come on and talk about money, I don't think, but the psychology behind it, because it's such an emotional thing. But we think of it as this sort of like pragmatic, oh, you know, we just need it to live. But people's relationship, you could have someone

that's, I know, a millionaire, but feels like it has that scarcity and never like keeps it all in the bank because they're afraid of it disappearing versus- Or gambles because it doesn't feel like enough. I think this idea of lack is probably a huge reason why people come to therapy, which comes, I think, from a lack of early love, a lack of early stability in your parents. So as in it's nothing to do with money itself. It can be, and you can have direct money things happen,

or your parents' relationship with money, maybe you grew up poor, but also a sense of luck means you're going to, like, more emotional luck. You're looking always to fill that hole. And often people look for money because we're told in the capitalist world, money makes you happy. And yet you can be a millionaire, and it's not enough, and you need more and more and more, because you're looking for this kind of external source to fill an internal sense of lack. And it's also encouraged in our society. Yeah, and people are horrified when they get the money or they get the success

and they learn that they still feel bad. And then they think, I guess they just need more. Right, right. And you hear this in like Oscar winners, you know, they like finally reached the goal that they are wanting and they go into a deep depression because they're like, oh no. I don't feel any different. Yeah.

I know. So in terms of that passing down of our emotional relationship or psychology around money, how do people unpack that and what are some of the common things that you have observed? I think people who've grown up with scarcity, like tangible scarcity of money and being poor, it can really be difficult to come out of that mindset, even when you do have enough to feel like it's enough.

But then there's also the kind of more upper-class issues with money of feeling like that's how you show your power and show your sense of worth. So I'm not of value unless I have money. And that's a really difficult story to carry through your life because you never you don't feel good enough unless you're at a certain standard. And then that creates a lot of envy and a lot of competitiveness just among peers as well. And how can people sort of start unpacking that and changing their dynamic with it?

I think understanding where it's come from and placing those stories back in the past, same with relationships, is really helpful. And that's part of kind of what happens in talking therapy is you process what's going on now and you understand, oh, wait, that's that's my mom's burden. Or that's I think's burden or that's, I think this because I was raised like this. But even just intellectualizing it, because it's something that I feel is probably stored in the body because you'll have a sort of visceral response to perhaps money conversations

or to your own observation of your financial situation, whether that's shame or anxiety or scarcity? Yeah, so it's also feeling it, but also putting meaning to it and understanding where those feelings are coming from and why. What is it about not having money or having money or needing money that connects to your sense of value and who you are? And that's done in like a intellectualized way, but also in a feeling way where there's probably trauma, that there's probably grief, there's feelings who,

as you said, that are in the body that need to be processed in a way where you feel like it's safe and you can accept what's happened and grieve and move forwards by both feeling and also putting meaning to the feelings you're having. And on a slightly different note, because it seems like anxiety, I don't know whether it's just become, people just use the word more, but you think that it's that people are just becoming overly sensitive? And that we've always felt these ways, but we've perhaps not had the language or pushed it down? Or genuinely people are getting more anxious?

I don't know. I mean, we definitely don't live in a very peaceful world. No. Both like politically, but just day to, having your phone buzz in your pocket. 24-7. The whole time. How is your nervous system supposed to regulate? But I don't know that we've ever lived in a time where everyone's peaceful.

I think that's like an idealized version and we always think we're living in the worst possible times. I mean, I think definitely people do right now. It's the best of times, the worst possible times. I mean, I think definitely people do right now. It's the best of times, the worst of times. Yeah, and we have climate change and that, I mean, the end of the world, what's more anxiety-provoking than that? But I've heard that kind of mental health comes in trends and that it used to be kind of hysteria and then depression

and then chronic pain and anxiety I think is something that everyone experiences but maybe it's easier to talk about because it's such like a shared experience now and as it becomes less taboo more and more people can name anxiety. And on that, how do you think that the sort of therapy of social media and like Instagram therapy, whilst it can be beneficial, do you think in any way it can serve as a replacement to actual one-on-one therapy? I think it has a place, but it's not therapy. Therapy is a relationship. I think therapy works because you're in relationship to another person and that person witnesses your pain and shows up for you and challenges

you and pushes you and holds you and you learn that you can be supported and that you can be bad even in your worst moments, even in your darkest kind of shadow parts that you can be bad even in your worst moments, even in your darkest kind of shadow parts that you let out. That person's still there, that person still cares about you. And that means you can tolerate yourself and accept yourself. And it's like a relational process. I think social media therapy is education and understanding things and putting words to things can be so helpful for people,

but it's not an experiential relationship that fundamentally changes how you see yourself. So very different things, I would say. Yeah, that makes sense. And it, because in America, it's sort of therapy is a bit like going to the dentist. It's just something everyone talks about and does. And I think it has progressed a lot here

in terms of people's relationship to it and understanding of its importance and how it operates in our kind of day-to-day life. But where's the line between like, when does someone need therapy? Is it even something that they suddenly like have to have a problem to go or is it something that's just about maintenance? And also, should it be viewed as something that's done for a period of time or sort of ongoing? Because of course the line between therapists, I always wonder like,

well, therapists want you to keep coming. So then are they not gonna like not help the problem because they want you to keep coming? Yeah, I've been thinking about this myself. It's a common kind of feeling that people have of like, oh, my therapist needs me to stay because they need me to pay them. Well, it's like, do you see that... Listen to that podcast and watch that show, The Shrinked Next Door.

Oh, yeah. I mean, obviously that's like a really extreme... But I think everyone watched that, they were like, that's actually one of my deepest fears. Yeah, people can be really manipulative. I would say working with someone who's kind of done as a therapist, I want them to go because there's less kind of work to do. Not that you can ever be done and I think you're ever fully healed.

And I think you come back to therapy at different points in your life and things come up. But when things start to be different in that person's life and there's really less to work through, I think often therapists feel like happy for them to leave because it feels like they've kind of completed the work for the moment. But in terms of who needs therapy, I mean, people people make the analogy like it's going to the gym, so everyone needs to exercise.

Some people need to exercise more than others who are particularly unfit and struggling with their health. But if you're already fit you still need to exercise. So I think the idea is that you can never be too well for therapy if you want to talk something through with someone. It doesn't have to be a place just for really traumatized people who need to do deep work. It can also be that you have a problem in your life that you want support with. You just need a sounding board sometimes. Yeah, yeah. And I think, yeah, removing that, oh, am I too privileged to be in therapy

because you're only you and it's your life. And I think everyone can benefit from self-awareness. Totally. And what are some, from sort of day-to-day life versus what you can see, and I'm sure you get a million messages, like what are some of the things that have been revealed to you in the online space that wouldn't have just in... I get a lot of messages of people's trauma and abuse and relationship problems. That must be a lot for you. I try not to read them or respond to them because it's too much.

It's completely non-consensual. And I get why people do it. They need to put their story out and this feels like a safe place. They don't realize that you're getting thousands of them. Yeah, and they don't think they think about the impact necessarily. They might not even imagine that you read it. And I think, you know, kind of AI therapy and robot therapy is, in a way, maybe that's the purpose of it, that people just offload all their stuff.

What do you think about that? Again, therapy is a relationship between two humans. Maybe it's a place for people to put those stories that isn't real humans who's reading them and being affected by them. But I'm not sure how much more it can do than that. So you have to be quite boundaried and not letting that stuff in.

Yeah, and I want to read, because people have taken the time to write, and they're real people. At the beginning, you must have just read them. Yeah, I read them less now. At the beginning it was like, oh my god, like, what do I say and how do I help this person? And then you realize you can't. It's all this responsibility you put in your hands, you know, like,

well, I've got to reply because they're relying on me or something. Yeah, but I always say I'm your pocket therapist, not your therapist. And what does your pocket therapist like, why that? So I guess the, I'm trained in psychoanalysis, which is the really intense therapy. your therapist. And what does your pocket therapist like? Why that? So I guess the I'm trained in psychoanalysis, which is the really intense therapy. But it's really deep and complex and nuanced. And it just isn't represented online. Well, it hasn't been. I think the online space is very positive and motivational quotes, and it can be quite light. And I just saw a place for these really interesting,

deep, complicated dynamics and theories that I was learning about online. But if you use kind of stuffy academic language, people aren't interested. So my mission was to distill it into like a bite-sized format and yeah, to explain that you can get educated, you can learn without it being from a textbook and without it being boring in a way that, yes, kind of snippets of information that

might help. So if people come to you, they're seeking that particular type of therapy? I'm not sure. If they're coming one-on-one? Yeah. Yeah. I think people expect it to be kind of long-term and they're talking, but I think people don't always know what they're seeking.

Yeah. Yeah and how does that differ from more like traditional therapy? Well there's CBT which is kind of what's in the NHS which is more cognitive so it's more about thinking patterns and tools and it's quite short term it tends to be kind of six to twelve sessions whereas like I said the work I do is really relationship based So it can be longer term and it can be, it takes a while to feel safe and to talk about things and to trust someone. And so it's all about kind of, yeah, talking through problems and trying to help people

become aware of what they don't already know. And that's how quickly can you tell that stuff? Yes, it takes a long time. Because if it's unconscious, it's unconscious to them. So they don't know. So it's about helping them to become aware of it. But how quickly are you aware of it? You have lots of theories going on in your head

all the time. And sometimes you miss something and you learn later. And sometimes you have an idea in the first session and it comes true. But it depends on the person. And so you said that a lot of people share a lot of vulnerable trauma and stuff. Do you feel that people at the moment don't really have the spaces or connections with others in their life to manage these things? Well, I guess you don't want to offload drama onto most of the people in your life and it can feel too much for them, too much for you, not safe, not boundaried. So people might

talk through some things, but having like a dedicated space to do that is really privileged in a way. Because there's only so much I think people feel that they can talk through with their friends and their friends aren't therapists they're not kind of there to receive all of that so it can feel quite on boundary to share all of that with people in your life. And what about kind of the balancing for you personally between the public stuff and work that you do and then the more private stuff? Yeah, it's a tricky place to balance.

I've tried not to share too much about myself, just with my clients in mind. You want to kind of make it about them, not about me. But also trying to advocate vulnerability and talk about my own journey. And it's like, again, that conflict of trying to do both at the same time. And just making sure that my practice always comes first over Instagram. That's your priority. Absolutely. That's the people who I'm really connected with. But yeah, the work informs what I post and what I'm thinking about and what I'm reading.

And it's a really enriching process to kind of share these theories and think of ideas and talk to people online about what they're interested in and what they want to know and what they're struggling with as well. I've learned a lot from posting. And what would your advice be for anyone that's struggling with something and perhaps seeking therapy

but is a little bit unsure where to go, what resources to kind of find? Yeah, so you can go on the BACP website if you're in the UK, which is, there's like a resource where you can look up therapists who are near you and offering help with different problems. So you can do a search and find someone that you resonate with and really just go with your gut when you're choosing a therapist, that not every therapist is for you. I always talk about it like dating, like you wouldn't

go on one date and just then have a relationship with that one person. You might go on multiple dates. You know, I always say choose three, have a first session with three, and then see who you resonate with the most. Cause that more than anything, that's chemistry. It is like dating at the beginning, yeah.

And feeling safe and feeling interested in that person and like you can talk to them is going to completely change your experience of therapy. I would also say there's a lot of bad first experiences and not to let that put you off and not to let that deter you from seeking therapy again if you need help. Yeah. We had one. I remember when I was first looking for a therapist,

I was probably like 28. I'd seen one when I was a little bit younger, but this was the time I was like, okay, I need to watch Decadrest and stuff. And I took that advice and I was like, I'm going to see four or five. And I went to see one that happened to be in the part of London that I'd grown up in. And so I thought, oh, well, this is quite nice. It's quite coming full circle. And I went to see her and a toddler or like a very young child kind of ran out. And I was firstly a bit like, oh, okay.

And then anyway, she kind of took me into this small study room and I sat down kind of like we are now and she was like so you know tell me you know what's going on this child ran over and she just started breastfeeding. The therapist? The therapist! And I'm me being so British just kind of pretended it wasn't happening just kind of carried on through the session. Whilst this toddler was just... Wow.

And it was actually quite like a big, not that I have anything wrong with people breastfeeding for however long they want to, but it was just the most bizarre situation afterwards. I was like, I can't believe that just happened. Did you go back? Not to her. Yeah, there's something quite unboundaried and like really central about it. Yeah, and also to not even acknowledge that there was a child that she was breastfeeding that was going to be running around the session. I was like, but I did carry on and I went and found another therapist.

I didn't let it put me off. So if anyone experiences something similar, I doubt they will. But yeah, I think it's a good thing to remember. Well, it's good you went back and didn't get put off by it. I've heard so many horror stories. Oh my God, I can imagine there's a whole book on that. Yes. And there's actually a podcast called Very Bad Therapy or Bad Therapy or something,

which is just people phoning in about their bad therapies. It's very entertaining. I have to listen to that. But Annie, thank you so much for joining me today. Just to kind of add for our listeners, is there anything to kind of direct them towards where can they find you? Yeah, so you can find me on your underscore pocket underscore therapist on Instagram and TikTok. Brilliant. Thank you so much.

Thanks for having me. Thank you for listening to this episode. If you want to find out more from Annie, you can find her on Instagram at your underscore pocket underscore therapist. Thank you so much for listening. And as always remember, you are not alone. Goodbye!