Saturn Returns with Caggie - Jillian Turecki: How Can You Build A Lasting Relationship?

Episode Date: March 10, 2025

In this episode of Letters to Venus, Caggie is joined by Jillian Turecki, a renowned relationship coach and author, for a powerful conversation on love, self-worth, and emotional resilience. Jillian shares her journey from teaching yoga to guiding people through the complexities of relationships, emphasising the importance of self-awareness and emotional intelligence. Drawing inspiration from the goddess Ishtar - who embodies both love and conflict - she unpacks the delicate balance of passion, boundaries, and integrity in relationships.  Together, Jillian and Caggie explore: 💌 The importance of maintaining self-worth and emotional awareness in dating and relationships 💌 Why boundaries and integrity matter, especially in breakups 💌 The risks of rushing into intimacy and the role of shared values in long-term connections 💌 How to navigate difficult conversations and engage in preventative couples work for deeper emotional intimacy This episode will help you cultivate stronger, healthier relationships built on self-awareness and mutual growth. ✨ Find Jillian Turecki on Instagram: @jillianturecki 🎙 Listen to Jillian’s Podcast: Jillian On Love 📖 Buy Jillian’s Book: It Begins with You — Letters to Venus is a spin-off of Saturn Returns that delves into the mysteries of love, relationships, and dating. Hosted by Caggie, this series draws inspiration from Venus - the goddess of love, beauty, and desire - guiding you through your heart’s journey, relationship patterns, and pathways to true intimacy. Join us for the Letters to Venus course! Doors are closing soon… ✨ The Letters to Venus course is a transformative experience designed to help you break old patterns, deepen self-love, and cultivate meaningful connections. Sign up here!

For those of you looking to deepen your understanding of love and healthy partnership, I am launching a live course as a companion to Letters to Venus. This course is an opportunity to go deeper, guided by experts and supported by a like-minded community. So whether you're out there seeking a partner and you're tired of dating the same person in different forms, or if you're feeling unsure about the next step in your current relationship, or if you just feel like you've got patterns going on that you just can't quite unpick, this course will offer a safe and private space to explore love and relationships without judgment. to explore love and relationships without judgment.

I will be your personal cosmic agony aunt leading weekly live webinars, along with workshops and panel discussions hosted by incredible guest experts. Spaces are limited, so if you would like to join, head to the show notes or visit satamreturns.co.uk to sign up. Hello everyone and welcome to a new spin-off show from Saturn Returns all around love, relationships and dating. This is Letters to Venus. Venus is the goddess of love, the celestial muse of beauty, desire

and connection. She teaches us that love is not just something we seek, it is something we embody. Hello everyone and welcome back to Letters to Venus, our new spin-off show from Saturn Returns, centred around love, relationships and all things to do with matters of the heart. Today I am thrilled to sit down with one of my favorite thought leaders in this space and that is Gillian Turecki. Gillian has recently released her new book It Begins With You and she has an incredible podcast, Gillian On Love, and she has just kind of taken the world by storm recently with her no-nonsense relationship advice. She has amassed millions of followers online and I absolutely was thrilled to sit down with her and she did not disappoint. I feel like the way she approaches relationships is so refreshing.

It makes you feel very seen and understood in whatever you're navigating without judgment, which I think is so important in this space. So I'll let you guys dive in, but please enjoy this episode and I hope it helps you in whatever you are going through right now. So then, as we delve deeper into the mythologies that represent Venus, we land on Ishtar, who had a lot in common with Shukra in Vedic astrology, as we mentioned earlier, and therefore also parts of Tantra. So Ishtar was the ancient Mesopotamian goddess who embodies both love and war. Ishtar represents, therefore, the duality of Venus's energy, an energy that all women naturally embody just

by walking down the grocery shop. Her power to both attract and conquer is a duality that she represents. She teaches us that love and conflict are two sides of the same coin. So by embracing this Ishtar energy, by embodying it authentically, which just means as a woman embodying yourself, it means that you're finding strength in your passions and fighting for what you love.

It's about channeling your inner warrior to protect your values and relationships. So this will involve having to somewhat strike the balance between setting boundaries and knowing when to compromise as depicted by one of the Venusian signs, Libra. Venus, as both the morning star and the evening star, symbolizes new beginnings and reflection. When we see her as a morning star, she represents the promise of a new day and the pursuit of our desires. When we see her as a morning star, she represents the promise of a new day and the pursuit of our desires. When we see her as an evening

star, she embodies satisfaction and the appreciation of beauty and the love we've cultivated. So these dual aspects of Venus remind us a bit of the moon and its cyclical nature of life and love, moon and Venus both being the representatives in our charts of our femininity. Thank you so, so much for joining me. I am so excited to meet you. I'm a massive fan of your work. Oh, thank you so much. You've just like exploded. How does it feel? Thank you so much. You've just like exploded. How does it feel?

It feels really good to have worked as hard as I have, especially on the book and for people to be receiving it so well. That feels really good. Hard work, when hard work gets sort of, when people like what you work so hard on and resonate with it, that feels good for sure. I'm sure you're tired of telling the story,

but for the thousandth time, I'm going to ask you again to share a little bit about how you got into the work that you're doing now. I know you're very open about your personal story and I, yeah, very touched by that. I'd love for you to share. It all started 22 years ago or or a little bit, no, longer, but I, God, I said 22 years ago, that's crazy. No, 26 years ago. And I found yoga,

the physical practice of yoga, And I was obsessed with it and it was a calling for me to teach it. So I started to teach it about 23 years ago. And so I was always very, very curious about the mind-body connection. I don't even think it's a connection. I think the mind and the body are one. And I loved helping people deepen and strengthen

and heal their relationship with themselves through the practice of yoga. And then I started to work with people with certain injuries, certain trauma. I worked with couples. And I realized that there is a really, there is a connection between how a person feels emotionally and what happens in their bodies.

So helping people heal themselves and helping people feel better about themselves is something that I've been doing for 23 years. And so, and then I also noticed that when I would work with couples that their relationship, they would tell me that their relationship got better, stronger, fortified, because they were practicing yoga specifically together as an activity that they did together. So as this was happening, I love teaching yoga, but I would say about seven years into teaching it, I felt a little bored.

And I felt like there, I didn't know where this was going to go because the ceiling is pretty low. Back then, there was no social media. There was no like, oh, let me teach this on Instagram or YouTube and build a career around that. That was not an option. So the options were just keep teaching or own a studio. So these were things that I didn't want to do. I also wanted to get married and have children and go down that route. So I always had this sort of inner conflict

of not knowing what my potential was and then also wanting to like settle down and get married and have kids. So I met the man who would become my husband and then my ex-husband. And I always say that our relationship before we got married was 90% great and 10% extremely problematic.

And you could say, and one could have an argument that says, well, 10%, that's actually a pretty good, that's a pretty good percentage. But that 10% was extremely profound and really a problem. So that when we got married, the 10% became the 90%, got magnified, and the 90% became the 10%. And we were two people who did not know how to, it was the classic trauma bond. I accepted things that I never should have accepted. I also didn't know how to communicate.

So it was very painful. And the way that he ended the relationship was very tragic. He broke up with me via text on the morning that I was having a miscarriage. And in the midst of this, my mom had been given a couple of months to live because she had terminal cancer. So abandonment doesn't even like scratch the surface

of what I was feeling and what was happening. And he never came home. So that day marked the day where my life completely unraveled and fell apart and I entered a very painful dark night of the soul and the thing that that we don't really know about the dark night of the soul is there's a couple of things one is it's extremely depressing and it's extremely hard and it is a bottom. But it's also a period of time in a person's life where they really get in touch with their creativity

and a lot of people in their dark night of the soul find purpose and meaning and that's what I did. And I became obsessed with two things. One, how the hell do I get myself out of this hole? Because it was terrifying, this emotional hole, this, you know, my mom dying and losing certainty and how am I going to support myself and, you know, am I ever going to have children, that kind of thing. And then I became obsessed with what makes a relationship work and thrive.

Like absolutely obsessed because I was shocked that I was in this position. And so I became, you know, I was just a woman on a mission trying to figure it out. And I was lucky enough to stumble upon mentors and people who really helped me. And I figured out how to create meaning out of the mess that I was in. And then I thought, you know what? This is my calling. I have to help people in their relationships.

And so I got certified, hired mentors that I have still to this day, 10 years, almost 11 years later, and started coaching and haven't stopped since. Wow. Thank you for sharing that. I'm curious to know, did you, after that horrific day, which you've also written about in the book, did you ever speak to your ex-husband again? Yes, yes. So he, you know, it was very odd.

We were very, you would think not, but we were actually very bonded. He felt very guilty, and he was close to my mom. He offered a lot of financial support for about a year. He felt so guilty. He bought me a new computer, enrolled me in this coaching program. He did these things, and I thought, screw it. Let me take what I can get. I'll take all the help I can get.

And he owes me. And then so that breakup happened on that day. But the untethering, I would say, lasted about six months. And then, within inside of a year, I found out that he was having a baby with someone. And so that took me back a little bit. And he's still with her. And so then we lived in the same neighborhood.

So then our conversations became less and less. And yeah, I would run into him here and there, or maybe he would get a bill that was really for me or vice versa, or hey, did you get this, that kind of communication. So it was actually quite, as much as there was the initial kind of traumatic ending. It was something that went on for a little bit.

Yeah, I mean, he left. He wanted a divorce. I didn't fight it. You know, there wasn't there wasn't fighting that happened after that. Really, there wasn't arguing. Because the reason I asked, there are so many things that we could discuss today. And I feel so well-versed in the landscape of relationships. And reading your book has been such a joy, having read many in this area.

But the area that I wanted to discuss with you to begin with, at least anyway, is breakups, because they can have this humongous lasting impact on us. And whilst there's a lot of room for them in terms of understanding of heartbreak to a degree, I feel like we're not really equipped with the emotional turmoil that we go through as a result, what it brings up in us, all our insecurities, our sense of self worth, especially if it's in the

construct of a marriage and a long term relationship where you have built a partnership and a life with someone. And it's the most painful place. And I love what you said at the beginning about how your dark night of the soul was a space where you could then cultivate purpose but for those that may be in the midst of that heartbreak I'd love for you to offer them some insights not only from your personal experience but from the work that you do as well. Sure. Well, first understand that we don't talk about this enough, but to your point,

going through a breakup, not all breakups obviously are created equal. Some are much harder than others, But they're so incredibly painful. They're so painful. If you are struck, if this is sort of new and you're struggling to get out of bed, if you're struggling to eat, if you're struggling to drink water, you're not alone. This is, it's a very, very difficult time.

It is grieving a death and it's Complicated by the fact that the person is still alive So it's really confusing to the human nervous system To go through the shock of loss like that Knowing that the person is going on with their life and you're supposed to go on with yours. What I will say is this too shall pass. And to get through the acute stage, you probably need to talk to someone.

Like a therapist. Yeah, it might be very beneficial to speak to a therapist to get you through this time. You need to lean on friends and family, because when you lose a relationship, especially if it was long term, you lose a part of your identity. And so part of the shock and the pain that is a breakup is an identity crisis.

And you start to question who you are and you start to feel very lost, right? That feeling of loss, which is, I think, a feeling that every human being can relate to, is like by definition, is suffering. And so when you lean on your friends and your family and you spend time with the people who know you and love you, whoever that is in community, you are reminded of who you are.

And you are reminded that you are very much, you very much have a self that is absolutely separate from this relationship and being reminded of who you are is so essential. And what I'll do is I'll take it a step further when you sort of transition out of the very acute stage of the inflammatory response to pain, which is can't get out of bed kind of thing. Part of what's going to remind you of your sense of self and actually build a stronger sense of self is to give back in some way. So and this is very important. This could look like anything. It could be your work. It could be your children.

It could be volunteering somewhere. It could be helping a friend. It's super, super important. It's what gives, this is just a fact of life. It's what gives our lives meaning to actually give outside of ourselves. And so that might take some brainstorming to figure out, but you can do it in small ways. You can help a

stranger on the street. These things reinforce sense of self, because then we recognize that life is so much larger than our pain. Life is so much larger than our breakup, and that there is a reason and a purpose for our existence. And when we go through a very devastating breakup, we go through like the dark night of the soul is an existential crisis, it's an existential process. It's an existential process. And then, like I said, we start to question our identity. We start to feel like we are of this world.

We are living in this world, but not of it. We start to feel very disociated. We start to sort of dissociate. What anchors us back into our bodies and on and onto this earth is realizing that our existence has a purpose and that is to help others. I love that. Because I think we've all been in that position where we go through a breakup that just completely knocks us.

And it feels like you say existential and it also feels like no one else has ever experienced this pain like even when people are like oh I had a break there's a part of you that's like like this yeah like this you haven't felt the aching heart shattering feels like yeah we really think it's such a good point we think we're all alone in it yeah and then also, I find that particular piece around helping other people interesting because there's a necessary grief and acknowledgement of that pain. But then there also comes a point and I speak from personal experience

where I've almost played into the victimhood of it. And I find it because especially in in the context of a relationship, whether you're breaking up or you're trying to work it out, to fall into those patterns of the sort of perpetrator and the victim is so easy to do, especially in the demise. So do you have any take on that? Because I can also see not that there's ever a perfect way to break up with someone that alleviates pain, but there's definitely better ways or worse ways to do it. And I think quite often what happens is people don't know how to deal with the conflict or to hold space for the

person that they're leaving. And so they just do something like send a text. Yes. You know, but actually that then leaves the other person in the state of not being able to fully process what's happening because the something so insignificant has just shattered a life. You know, and I guess what I'm asking is, can we leave well? Is that possible? And secondly, in the demise of a relationship,

how much accountability can we take for how we talk about the other person even if they've left us? You know, versus going into like the victimhood, they're a narcissist, they're this, which gives us a you know, versus going into like the victimhood. They're a narcissist. They're this which gives us a little bit of a moment of like, I feel a bit better. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wow, there's a lot here. So let's start. This is important. Let's start with the first one. What I came to realize was that the way that my ex husband broke up with me has nothing to do with me and everything to do with him. And it's hard to understand that in the moment, but for anyone who's listening, it's very important. He has to live with that shame.

And shame is what he did feel. And probably since then, he's repressed it so much. But we all know that everything we repressed, we can't actually get rid of. So he has to live with that fact. I, on the other hand, am healed from that day. And I don't have to live with any shame. So when someone ghosts you or breaks up with you without integrity, it is really about their fear and their problems and their wounding. It has nothing to do with you.

And so it is a terrible thing to ghost someone. And it's a terrible thing to break up with someone over text unless you had to because it was some sort of dangerous situation. But let's just say it's not. It's really best to break up with someone in person. And if you can't do it in person, we have technology. You can do it over Zoom or FaceTime. You just don't do it over text.

You don't flee a relationship unless you are fleeing a dangerous situation. When you do that, not only is it a terrible thing to do to someone else, it's abandoning, but you are going to hate yourself. So yes, there are ways to break up with people with integrity, it doesn't mean it's gonna be uncomfortable, feelings are still gonna be hurt, it's still a breakup. But you really add fuel to the fire

when you do it in a way that is disrespectful and that doesn't honor the love that you had. And I think that that's really what it boils down to. Hard to say that when you barely know the person, but when you have a love relationship, you want to at least honor the love that you had with the person. Now the victim part.

It's okay to feel like a victim in the beginning when someone has betrayed you and hurt you, especially if you've been abused in any way, especially if you've been broken up with in the way that I was broken up with. It's okay to feel that way., it's OK to feel that way. And it's important to feel it. It's important to really feel how wronged you were, because you need to know that so that you don't, so that you are more aware of red flags that are presented

to you earlier on in a relationship. The problem is staying in that. The problem is staying feeling like a victim only because that is going to prevent you from moving on. And it's also going to prevent you from expanding and growing and learning some very important lessons, such as maybe I contributed to some of the things that were not working. Maybe I have a habit of choosing losers or choosing, you know, seriously, or choosing people who don't love me in the way that I love them.

So we have to take radical accountability for the decisions that we make and for the relationships that we have. And that doesn't mean it's your fault. It could still mean that the person that you were with was highly dysfunctional and terrible. But more times than not, it takes two, and it doesn't take away from, you know, part of the processing that I had to go, to undergo and go through was understanding what was his part and how I was wronged, and also being able to see where I contributed to a scenario that wasn't working.

Two things can be true. And that's part of the processing. And it's very, very important to not stay the victim because everyone deserves a new chance in love. And it's very hard to have that new chance in love if you feel like the victim. Yeah. And it's very hard in relationship to hold two

truths to you know because like when we get latched on to our own and we are the victim in that it's like impossible to see that the other person had their own experience it's much easier to just villainize them but like you say until we actually take accountability for our own part, we kind of become stagnant and ruminate in this space that inevitably means that then we start creating these, these narratives that's like, why do all men cheat? You know, that's one of the things to talk about in your book, or all the good ones are gone, or why do I always attract unavailable people? And it becomes a

self-fulfilling prophecy that you are co-creating. Yes, exactly. And let's take this to a very extreme example. Let's say you were in, there was a domestic violence case, you know, like there was, you were abused, there was violence. You are 100% a victim of domestic violence. And that's a horrible thing. Part of the process, because I was in a very abusive relationship, which I outlined in the book in my 20s, late 20s.

And ironically, it came after one of the most beautiful relationships I've ever been in. So I had to really sit with this understanding that what was done to me was terrible and wrong and horrible, and that I was a victim. And I also had to do the work to make sure that I never got into a relationship like that again. And in order to do that, I had to face some hard truths about me and my self-worth, and my relationship with my father, and my willingness to ignore my intuition,

which was very strongly telling me to get out. So even in the most extreme cases, we have to make sure that we don't get into that scenario again, and that is going to require looking inward. And that's why the name of the book, title of the book, is It Begins With You. And with that particular situation,

where you just said that your intuition was telling you something was wrong, what did that look like retrospectively? Like what were the signals? You feel it very deeply, you feel like you're like, it's a very weird thing to say I've never said this before, but it almost feels like your soul is being punched. Like you feel it so deeply in your bones and you just like, it's entirely physical before it's mental. It's like, whoa, that was so wrong. That was not good.

And I think the most confused, I know exactly what you mean and the most confusing thing about it is we often feel like it's our heart that's betraying our soul. You know, there's this duality in us about it is we often feel like it's our heart that's betraying our soul. There's this duality in us of really wanting this thing, but also on a visceral level, knowing that it's going to cause us a huge amount of pain.

Yes. And that is one of the hardest places to be, but to varying degrees, I think those experiences are kind of crucial in the realms of love because they allow us to really know that our bodies and our intuition have our backs. Yes, yes.

And it is so important to exercise that muscle. For all people, men have intuition too. But since we're on the topic of women and predatory men, one of the problems that's epidemic is those women are not listening to their intuition. Yeah. Do you come across that a lot in your work? I do. I do. And I come across men not listening to their

intuition and their guts when it comes to certain things for sure. But yes, I do. I absolutely do. They are not. They're so divorced from their bodies in that way. And they're so because of various reasons, neurotic and anxious that they're not, that they're questioning themselves constantly. And they have the ability to really, it's just a matter of just practicing listening to that. Yeah. And I think the longer a situation like that goes on and people, you know, kind of go on the path of ignoring the intuition. They're looking for logic and reason and applying all of these things on top of it. And like you say, it creates this neurotic behavior that just makes someone feel

not only like, but they may end up being betrayed by that person, but that they've betrayed themselves. Yes. And women really need to, yes, totally. And they need to kind of get back in touch with that. And that means slowing down. That means movement. Maybe it means dancing. I remember, I wish I remember who the person was at the podcast that I listened to. It was years ago, maybe eight years ago, I listened to a podcast and was either a CIA agent or FBI agent who was being interviewed. And he was talking about how women are one of the reasons why women are so much more likely to be the victim of an attack, a random attack, is because they'll have an instinct about a predator, but then they'll say,

no, you know, don't, that's not nice. Don't be like that. You know, they're just down and out or, you know, don't, that's not, you know, that whole thing. Be the good girl, be nice, yeah. And that's, you know, don't, that's not cool, right? And I'll never forget, you know, one of the lessons that my mom taught me at a young age, and she said, never ignore when the hairs on the back of your neck go up.

If you're about to get into an elevator and there's a man that goes in first and something feels off, just pay attention. Do not worry. Do not go into, well, that's sexist or racist or whatever it is. Don't listen to any of that. Just pay attention to the hairs in the back of your neck and don't get into the elevator.

And she said, always listen to that. Always pay attention. And I think that's part of what this agent was saying is we get, you know, when we sense danger, we are animals. So there is that, like that hairs on the back of the neck, it's metaphorical, but there's also something quite literal about that. And you have to pay attention to it. And that's in relationship to relationships, red flags is paying attention to those signs

that we feel in our body. Because we've all had those experiences for anyone listening that may feel very disconnected from their intuition, or they're in a long-term thing and they're questioning it, but they don't know what instincts to follow. We've all had those experiences, whether it be walking down the street and someone just gives us a feeling that's off.

And we instinctively follow it. But in relationships, we can often disregard it for all the reasons we've discussed. And, you know, be it, well, we've invested so much and... We don't want to lose love. Don't want to lose love. And then I guess the the thing becomes is it when you're trying to distinguish whether it's a pattern and like a trauma in in you versus something Visceral and you being like no, this is just wrong and

how does one like Tune into that so I always think it's really impossible. It's really important to follow the body's wisdom, even if it is past behaviors, patterns, historical experiences, because you're listening to yourself and you're doing that self-inquiry. Yeah, so it takes practice. Sometimes if it's in a dating or relationship scenario, have a conversation. Say, you know, this happened. I have a concern about it or I had a reaction to it,

where I'd love to learn more about what you said. Like, what did you mean by that? And then a lot's gonna be revealed in that conversation. Yeah. So that's one thing that's very important. Which really, I can't stress the importance of it enough, because a lot of people will either ignore their intuition or get in their heads about something and then create a whole story about it. Just ask the person. That's so obvious actually. You're not necessarily going to get maybe the right answer, but you'll get some sort of information.

You'll get some information. Yeah, you'll get some information. Yeah. I remember actually when I went through a bad breakup in my late, actually I was 30, I'd just turned 30. I had this feeling about this partner that like, there was something going on. And he was messaging other women and stuff. And I just couldn't, I couldn't shake it. Yeah. And I remember asking him, but he just like lied. But I just still even though I'd asked him and I kept getting this feeling,

and I followed it and I was right. And it was a big sign, you know, it was a big lesson for me and investigate these things within reason. I'm not suggesting that everyone kind of goes through their partner's phone or anything like that. Yeah, but you have to you have to listen. You have to listen to that. You really do. And the other thing that I wanted to kind of, I feel like we've naturally gone into this area, which I a part of your book, which I just was like, Oh my God, I needed someone to write this is to do with when we're dating someone at the

early stages, or we've met someone, let's say, and the chemistry is crazy. But like we found the one we're imagining what wedding or we've met someone, let's say, and the chemistry is crazy. But like we found the one, we're imagining what wedding dress we're going to wear. We've created this whole future with them. And we've only, you know, met them one time. And then stuff just starts kind of falling apart. Yeah, but we're already so invested mentally, that we're already so invested mentally that we're too far gone. And you give some beautiful examples of how, this happens to everyone. It happens to people that are super successful,

super beautiful, super switched on, super aware. And we can have these blind spots in matters of the heart because we equate chemistry with compatibility. Or love. Or love. Or love. And so I would love for you to kind of share your wisdom on this, and also the differences between lust and love. Because I think they are often kind of shoved together.

Yes. Listen, passion is a very important part of a romantic relationship. Because without it, passion is a very important part of a romantic relationship, because without it, you have a friendship. But when you first meet someone and you're feeling all of that, you think, I love this person, I can't live without them. When really what they're doing is stimulating something inside of you that's been dormant for a long time.

And if you're desperate, which a lot of people are, and that's not I'm not putting anyone to I've been desperate, what do I mean by desperate? Desperate for closeness, desperate for love, feeling lonely. And then they trigger something inside of you, and then we think, oh my God, everything is amazing. And what we do, the immaturity in us will then project our ideal man or woman onto this person.

And we think, this is amazing, everything is amazing. And the thing is, it's difficult because part of it is so fun. So I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, but what I am trying to say is process your enthusiasm, because that extreme passion that you're feeling is not love. It is chemistry, it is attraction, it is your nervous system producing a whole lot of cortisol

and dopamine. And so you are revved up. And then also, you're also producing other hormones like oxytocin and all these things that are making you feel so excited about someone. But love is something that happens after those butterflies have settled. And what you're building with someone is emotional intimacy and closeness. And that is different because love is the building of trust, it's the building of safety. And passion has a role in it for sure, because passion is the thing that makes us feel in love with someone versus just loving them

the way we would love a friend or a pet or a family member. But all that excitement that you feel in the beginning is exciting and also can be very, very dangerous because that is when we stop being discerning. That is when we lose sight of our boundaries. That is when we become, we get tunnel vision and think, oh, I have to make it work with this person. And all I'm suggesting is slow it down,

get to know this person's character, know what you want, know what your values are and what you want in a relationship, and understand that when you are under the hypnosis of this chemistry and this lust, you cannot trust yourself entirely. And that's why I tell people to slow it down and maybe wait to sleep with them.

Because a lot of people, especially women, once that happens, you're a goner. And so, yeah. And that doesn't quite work the same way for men. It doesn't. But when men like you and they're actually really into you and you bring sex into it, it clouds their vision too. But yes, it does not, especially for women sleeping with men, if he doesn't feel bonded to you emotionally, intellectually, beyond the physical, and then he sleeps with you, he is not going to be interested in you.

He's gonna be turned off by you. Yeah, I think that's a really tough pill for people to swallow because we think we think that if we sleep with the person, then we're going to really solidify that chemistry and that bond that we feel. No. And actually, like you say, it can go completely the other way. I mean, women will sleep with someone who's a total loser and no, seriously, literally a terrible person.

And she will convince herself that she's in love because of all the hormones and chemicals that are produced after she sleeps with him because she thinks he's hot or he reminds her of some unhealed wound that's inside of her that she's, her unconscious is looking to heal heal and for him if he doesn't feel connected to you beyond the physical you are you become meaningless

to him after he has slept with you because the conquest is over and this is just it is human nature but but but the thing is what's the lesson in that? Wait till there's a connection. Make sure you're sleeping with good people. Or have casual sex, but know that you're having casual sex and you're doing it because you feel sexually liberated and it's not about love for you, necessarily. Because I think sometimes, and I know from friends that I've spoken to, they sort of

convince themselves. Like a man will say, let's just use this kind of, you know, a woman's into a man, there's chemistry, there's stuff going on. And the man will say, like, I'm just not interested, I'm not looking for a relationship. And rather than go, okay, thank you for your honesty like I am on to the next woman will go okay well if I keep sleeping with him he'll start wanting that yeah yeah I'll change him like women need to stop doing that immediately so when is the time when is the what are the right questions to ask yourself when you are feeling that dopamine chemical combustion?

What are the right questions to ask yourself to have that self inquiry? And when is the right time to get physical? If there is one? Yeah, well, it's hard to say. But so for the people who tend to get very obsessive when they meet someone and they're lusting, that's the time to double down on your work, your purpose, your friendships, and start a new project. You need to keep focusing on you and not get lost in this.

Yeah. Because your creative energy can go so channeled into this story that you've just like, you're gone. You're gone. And you need to, because it's very important. You do not have to be fully healed or fully whole to be in a relationship and make it work and make it healthy.

But a sense of self is very important. Need to have a sense of self. Otherwise, it's like, it's like what's a relationship like when we're a teenager? It's all lust, it's all emotion. It's all crazy because you don't really have a sense of self as a teenager. So it's very important as adults that we have a sense of self.

And so some of the questions for that self inquiry would be, wait a second, do I even actually like this person? What is it that I like about them so much? Or am I just loving this feeling? What is it that I'm actually really looking for in a relationship? What are my top three values that I want to share with someone? What do I, what's really important to me?

And then when to sleep with someone. You know, there's no rule. I don't really, there's no rules around that. I think it's, people are really, they are eager to jump into bed, into bed with each other and exchange fluids, but they're not, but they're not having conversations. How do you know when it's time? It's like you have to decide what is, what does sex mean to you? And what do you want it to mean to you? Do you have a habit of, and I think that this is, a lot of women need to ask themselves,

do I cherish my body? And do I wanna continue to just give it away to anyone who gives me some attention and pursues me? But there are other women who might say You know, I don't see it that way. I see this as a as a liberating experience More power to you. All I'm suggesting is know yourself Know your vulnerabilities get really real with yourself and then have a conversation. You can say, I don't want to take, I'm really attracted to you, but

I'm not ready to have sex until there's a commitment and we know each other more. That's just, that's just the season I'm in. That's what I need. A lot of us, I think we're brought up in, in a way that we would equate being lusted for or desired as being liked. Yeah, and then we go into adult relationships. And you know, someone like desperately wants to sleep with us. And we think, Oh, well, this means they want a relationship or this. They really Yeah, not this, no, it's not true. To be desired is not to be, same thing as to be valued. Yes, yes. And how can, I guess it's like gathering enough information

so that you can discern whether that person is invested in you in the way that you want to be with them. You know, I think it's just conversations about values and the kind of relationship you want to build and feeling like you're you are opening up to each other and vulnerable with each other and close with each other. There are no guarantees. But, you know, feeling safe with this person, feeling comfortable with this person, feeling like you get, that you guys really get one another.

And there's no pressure being put on you. I know, like, in love there are no guarantees, but in terms of, and I think we like to have this sort of idealistic idea that we can guarantee that we won't be hurt and things like that, but unfortunately- Or I'll never leave you, I'll never stop loving you, all of that. Yeah. Exactly. But in terms of choosing the right partner, because we kind of discussed how, okay, if that chemistry that feels completely off the charts,

but actually fundamentally we don't share the same values, but it's still, still, you know, got my head in a complete mess for however long. If people are like, okay, I know that that doesn't work, but what exactly am I looking for? Because I think that the films, looking for because I think the films, the TV, it tells us that that is it. That's what it's about. You have to decide, do you want to do you want to get married? Do you want a long term relationship or do you want an affair like a fun thing? If you want a long term relationship, you have to look for things that.

You have to look for things that, you know, what makes a long-term relationship strong are two people who are a united front. They maintain their autonomy, their autonomous beings, but they also have oneness with each other. They become one. And that's a hard balance. It's like how do we become one and also maintain our autonomy? But well, because ultimately when you're arguing, you are arguing with the intent to fix the problem and to stay united. You're communicating to stay united. You're sharing a common vision.

That's very important. A vision for your life together. Human beings do very well having goals and visions that they're aspiring to and working towards. If you're going to be in a relationship, you have to have a shared vision. That doesn't mean that every vision for your life is the same as the other.

No, you're two separate people, but you have to have a shared vision. If you don't, that relationship's not going to last. Or it might last, but you'll be miserable. It's very, this is very underrated, super, super important. A relationship is what happens after the honeymoon. The honeymoon's easy. The honeymoon is very easy.

And look, it's very hard to be attracted to someone who's not good for us because our body wants what it wants. But then our body may want the person who can't meet our emotional wants and our emotional needs. It's not choose the person you're attracted to in chemistry or choose the safe person. You want to learn how to do emotional intimacy with someone and have that be the thing that helps the passion. Sustains it. Sustains it. You also have to do fun things with the person,

but everyone has to, is the best sex of your life with someone with whom there was some danger? Usually. I have to say that that sex of love is probably in prison. Exactly, there's that saying, right? Because there's a little bit of danger, because a little bit of danger is good. That's why couples who actually engage in some activities

that are a little dangerous, not dangerous in terms of like, seriously dangerous, but just a little, little cortisol sp spiking little fun. That's really good for chemistry But you can also have incredible sex with the person who you feel very Connected to and safe with and I don't know you two can explore tantra. You can go to certain you can go to certain There's lots of resources now you can go to certain, there's lots of resources now. You can go to retreats where you're deepening your erotic self, you're learning how to connect more with your own body and then you're connecting.

I mean, there are things you can do to have really mind blowing sex with the person you feel safe with. I guess it's about keeping the element of novelty. It's novelty and also staying connected to self. A lot of times when the magic dies or dims in a relationship, it starts with some sort of magic dimming within ourselves. What do you mean by that? Well, you're feeling stressed, chronically stressed.

You're not taking care of your body. You're feeling disconnected from your body. You're not doing anything in your own life that has novelty and excitement. So you're feeling stressed and a little dead inside. Yeah. And your own desire is diminished. So your own desire is diminished. So your own desire is diminished,

and so your desire for the other will be diminished as well. So in that case, it's, oh, where is my relationship with myself, erotically speaking, or just my relationship with myself in terms of my need for excitement and adventure? Am I meeting my needs in a way that is helpful? And I think that in my mind, what that brings us back to is the shared vision. Because if you are feeling those things,

like your desire is diminished, and therefore the magic has kind of gone in you and in the relationship. Yes. Something's off, something's out of alignment. Yes. You don't know what your own vision is. How can you get back in that space?

So how can people kind of cultivate that within their relationship and in their own lives to actually be like, okay, this is the thing that makes me feel magical and lit up? You know, life is an ebb and a flow. There's an ebb and flow of chemistry with your partner. There's an ebb and flow with our purpose. There's an ebb and flow with finding meaning in life.

I think it's just about recognizing, like, oh, I'm not feeling very connected. What can I do to be more connected? It's talking to your partner about it. It's supporting your partner when they're feeling a little bit lost. It's this is just part of life. You can't oh, we can't always be on we can't always be inspired. We can't always be turned on. But I think that the

deeper message is, well, what are you gonna do about it? You know, are you gonna just let that state emotional state go on and on and on and on? Or are you going to just let that state, emotional state, go on and on and on and on? Or are you going to talk to your partner about it and troubleshoot with them a little bit? Or go see a therapist, maybe. Or maybe when it comes to life purpose, it's probably better to see a coach.

Or maybe not better, but something that one should consider as a possibility. And yeah, does that answer your question? Yeah, it does. And I wanted to ask from your work, doing one-on-one with people or with couples, how much of the success in a long-term relationship is tied to the capacity to handle difficult conversations?

Very much so. You know, it becomes very difficult when a person cannot regulate at all. Now what I mean by that is we need to be in touch with our emotions. We need to be in touch with our feelings. That's actually very attractive. We just don't want our partner to collapse and fall apart under the weight of their feelings. So we want, so these difficult conversations are important and made possible when we can actually not fall apart with the discomfort that we feel in our bodies when we're having them. So we don't shut down, we don't pull away, we don't scream, we don't yell, all these things. We are able to manage our reactions,

even if it means like, look, I'm feeling very overwhelmed right now, I need five minutes. Like I'm feeling super charged right now. These are the things. And so these difficult conversations, look, anyone can make a relationship last, but are you gonna be happy while it's lasting?

Or are you going to be miserable? Lots of people can make a relationship last 20, 30, 50 years. It's really not that hard. Two people can just disengage, dissociate, and stay married for years. But to make a marriage really work, to make a marriage or relationship feel like, oh, this is a positive force in my life, that's an entirely different skill. And you need to be able to have the hard conversations to really make sure that resentment doesn't set in, so that you're understanding each other,

so that you're problem solving, and then ultimately growing together as a couple, as a result of that. And the final thing I wanted to ask you, because you mentioned it at the very beginning about how in the man that you married, that there was 90% great stuff and 10% not so great. And then as soon as you got married, those flipped.

Yes. Would you say that that is something that just happens when people get married, have children, that the little things become sort of under a microscope. Yeah, so this isn't to scare people, but it's for people to understand that moving in together, marriage, these things don't solve problems.

Yeah, they just trigger all your shit. So the lesson is not don't move into the other, don't get married, but just deal with your problems. Deal with your problems. Deal with your issues. Marriage is not going because a lot of people will think, and women in particular, will think, well, if I'm married, I get the commitment, so I have the certainty, so I'm safe now. No, no, no, no. It doesn't work like that. It doesn't work like that because your problems don't go away just because you got married. They actually, again, they get bigger because now in a way there's no way out.

Yeah, there's been emerging. There's been emerging, yeah. So how do people prepare for that? You know, notice that things are going to come up, that it's going to be incredibly challenging. Yeah. But not throw in the towel. Yeah. Well, I love the idea of people doing preventative couples work.

Because, you know, once things are really bad, it's hard. It's Hard. It's hard. So I think your relationship is great. Great. Go do some couples work So that you so that the two of you can really be prepared for when things come up you can solidify some stuff You know, there's always gonna be things that come up where you think. Oh some stuff. You know, there's always going to be things that come up where you think, oh, I didn't know that you were feeling that. And it's easier when there's a sort of mediator in the room versus it going by unsaid. Look, sometimes couples therapists, we had terrible ones. So I'm not a huge fan of couples therapy. I'm really not.

Sometimes they make it worse. You find a really good one is all I'm saying. I'm a fan of preventative couples work, but I also want to caution people. Sometimes when you go into it, then you're looking for problems to solve, and you don't want to be searching for problems ever. So, you know, maybe it's a couples retreat.

I like it more for things that are bonding. That give you tools for deeper closeness. I'm a big fan of that. That strength in the union. Yeah, strength in the union and you know, it's so like, that's why I call it couples work, rather than sitting on a couch and speaking to a therapist when nothing is wrong and maybe then you kind of search for something that's wrong. Well, thank you so much. This has been such a joy to speak to you. And thank you for the

work that you you put out into the world. It's I know it's helped millions of people and will continue to. I appreciate that so much. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Letters to Venus as much as I enjoyed having this conversation. And if you want to dive deeper into Gillian's work, you can find her podcast, Gillian on Love, and I highly, highly recommend getting her new book, It Begins with You. I found it's such a powerful guide to breaking unhealthy patterns and really giving us the tools to build deeper, more meaningful relationships. So thank you Gillian for coming on the show and if you guys are enjoying this show so far, I hope you are, know that we are doing a Letters to Venus course to really help you dive deeper

on these themes. It will be part of a community so you can share anything that you're navigating. It will be a really safe space and we're going to be joined by expert guests throughout a four-week period. So if this sounds like something you're interested in, if this podcast is helping you, if you're looking to find love or to deepen a relationship that you're in or to really just help fix patterns that are holding you back and you feel that you've got some blind spots in, I hope that you will join me and our guests for this beautiful course for Letters to Venus. Please find the link in the show notes or head to satamreturns.co.uk