Saturn Returns with Caggie - Lalala Let Me Explain: How Can We Navigate the Complexities of Modern Dating?

Episode Date: March 17, 2025

In this episode of Letters to Venus, Caggie is joined by dating educator and author LaLaLa Let Me Explain (Layla) to unpack the complexities of modern dating, attachment styles, and relationship dynamics. Layla is an anonymous relationships expert known for her raw and honest advice on topics people are often too embarrassed or afraid to talk about. A qualified social worker and dating & relationships educator, she left her 15-year career in the public sector in 2018 to bring her professional knowledge to social media. Together, Caggie and Layla explore: 💌 Layla's journey from navigating a challenging dating past to becoming a respected dating advisor 💌 Understanding attachment styles and how they influence relationship patterns 💌 The importance of tracking your menstrual cycle to gain insight into emotional responses 💌 Identifying red flags such as love bombing, controlling behaviors, and negging 💌 The impact of gender norms on dating dynamics and societal expectations 💌 Managing jealousy in relationships — when it's healthy, when it’s harmful, and how to express it constructively 💌 Practical strategies for setting boundaries and cultivating self-awareness in dating With Layla’s candid, no-nonsense advice and Caggie’s thoughtful reflections, this episode is filled with empowering guidance for anyone seeking to foster meaningful, secure connections. Letters to Venus is a spin-off of Saturn Returns, where Caggie explores the mysteries of love, relationships, and dating through the lens of astrology. Drawing inspiration from Venus—the goddess of love, beauty, and desire—this series invites you to explore your heart’s journey, relationship patterns, and pathways to true intimacy. ✨ LAST CHANCE - Doors to the Letters to Venus course are CLOSING on March 22nd ✨ The Letters to Venus course is a transformative experience designed to help you integrate celestial wisdom into your love life. Plus, we’re thrilled to have Layla as one of our guest experts! She’ll be leading an exclusive panel & Q&A session on modern dating dynamics and relationship awareness for course members. Spots are filling fast — don’t miss out! ✨ Sign up here and secure your place before the doors close!

For those of you looking to deepen your understanding of love and healthy partnership, I am launching a live course as a companion to Letters to Venus. This course is an opportunity to go deeper, guided by experts and supported by a like-minded community. So whether you're out there seeking a partner and you're tired of dating the same person in different forms, or if you're feeling unsure about the next step in your current relationship, or if you just feel like you've got patterns going on that you just can't quite unpick, this course will offer a safe and private space to explore love and relationships without judgment. to explore love and relationships without judgment.

I will be your personal cosmic agony aunt leading weekly live webinars, along with workshops and panel discussions hosted by incredible guest experts. Spaces are limited, so if you would like to join, head to the show notes or visit satamreturns.co.uk to sign up. Hello everyone and welcome to a new spin-off show from Saturn Returns all around love, relationships and dating. This is Letters to Venus. Venus is the goddess of love, the celestial muse of beauty, desire

and connection. She teaches us that love is not just something we seek, it is something we embody. Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Letters to Venus, our spin-off show from Saturn Returns dedicated to helping you navigate the complex world of love and relationships. Today I'm thrilled to be sitting down with La La La, let me explain as she goes on Instagram, also known as Layla and I've been following her work for a really long time. She is a dating educator, she is a dating advisor and agony aunt for OK magazine, she is a Sunday Times best-selling author and she has a very

direct, no BS approach when it comes to navigating dating and matters of the heart. And so I was thrilled that she agreed to join me, come to my house, sit on my sofa. And we had such an interesting conversation. She is super smart. Her approach, her directness, and her perspective is just so helpful for today's world, because as we all know, it can be a jungle out there. And I think that the way that she brings things to the forefront, some things that can be, feel very complex, sometimes very shameful, and she sort of eradicates that shame

with the way that she speaks about stuff, which I think is so powerful. So I hope you enjoy today's episode. It's important to recognize that embodying Venus energy can be seen as threatening through the lens of the male gaze at times. Venus's power to attract, love, and create beauty is immense and therefore historically,

societies have often encouraged a more subdued expression of these traits in women, viewing them as disruptive to the status quo. So embracing Venus fully is an act of defiance against these limiting structures, a reclamation of personal power and a celebration of your own femininity, which is also why Saturn and Venus work really well together in a chart and this is also why Saturn exalts in Venus' sign Libra. Laura, welcome to Letters to Venus. Oh, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.

I'm so excited to speak to you because I followed you. I can't remember how I discovered you, but I've been following you for quite a long time. And when I had this idea of doing this spin-off show, I was like, you were always one of my dream guests to have. Thank you. When you asked me to do show, I was like, you were always one of my dream guests to have. Thank you.

When you asked me to do it, I was thinking, I was actually quite surprised actually. Why? Because I guess my vibe is a lot more, not aggressive, but I don't know what the right word is, but you're very, I listen to your podcasts and you're so calm and you're so connected to your spiritual side. And you know, I guess a lot of the stuff that I talk about is like, your boyfriend's going

to fuck you over. Yeah, but that's kind of why I love it. That's so interesting to me. Because it's like, I think there's a side of me that's a bit more like that. And I do love, you're like, no bullshit. Like just say it how it is. Because some of the questions and the things that people send you as well, it's like, it's really going into the nitty gritty.

Yeah. Yeah, I get some really deep questions. And I think that that is, I really value that my audience trusts me to ask that level of questions. Cause I don't- As vulnerable as you could possibly be. Yeah, and it really is the kind of really deep stuff

where I guess people almost feel sort of some shame in what they've done, but then they can come to my page and get that acknowledgement that actually so many of us do so many mad things and there really isn't any shame in any of it. Yeah, it's very unifying. Yeah, I guess creating a community out of people who are just like, this is okay, like the last thing you need to do right now is be embarrassed by your own behavior

or embarrassed about how someone has treated you. It's nice to be in a community with people who are all able to or all admitting that we're on this kind of journey of like dickhead in recovery. Do you know what I mean? Like, yes, I have been a dickhead for a variety of reasons, but I'm not going to allow the shame of that to hold me back.

And I've got a whole group of women that are also saying, yeah, I'm a dickhead in recovery too, you know, and we can all be dickheads together. But I think that the shame piece, especially as it connects to sexuality is so huge. I'd say everyone really, I think everyone has something that they might feel ashamed about and they keep it to themselves and therefore it kind of creates this, you know,

it kind of like builds up momentum internally whereas I feel like you create the space that allows people to share that thing and then realize it's not that big a deal or there are thousands of other people that have experienced something similar. So for the audience that don't know, would you be able to share a little bit about how you got into the work that you're doing now? Sure. So I started out life, well actually so the work I'm doing now is I'm currently OK Magazine's weekly resident Agonyart. I have a podcast. I was with Sony, but I left that contract last year and I'm now doing a very similar podcast, but on my own, but that's behind a patron paywall. But that's all quite, so like this week, I'll be looking at Bianca, Chensore and Kanye West

and whether that's a kink lifestyle BDSM relationship or whether it's abuse. So a lot of my content is- Let's circle back to that. If you will. A lot of my content is around kind of looking at relationships in the media but also answering the questions of patrons and talking to relevant people. I also do events for my Patreon subscribers, so I just did a Galentine's event, so trying to bring women together in community. I've got a Sunday Times bestselling book,

Block Delete Move On, which is designed as a kind of modern day dating guide, helping us to navigate all the red flags and all that sort of stuff. And then I just use Instagram as a platform to spread awareness and knowledge. But I started out life, I really started out life as quite a mess, I guess, in terms of my relationships and dating. I was only a kid really, but I was very much choosing not great men right from the start,

right from when I was like 14. Then I got involved with somebody who ended up going to prison, which sent me down a completely new path of a new sector. So I started volunteering in prisons and working with people who had experienced separation from a loved one who'd gone to prison. I then started working as a sexual health and relationships educator for the NHS. So I'd be delivering sex and relationships education in schools, colleges, prisons, youth offending institutes. And then I moved on to study social work. And I specialised in my degree in HIV, and specifically prisoners living with HIV. And then I went on to work in child protection

for 13, 12, 13 years where I specialized in domestic abuse and obviously all forms of child abuse. But while all that was going on, while I was working in this professional career, helping people to leave really abusive relationships, helping people to untangle generational patterns of trauma and behavior, I was also going home and dating men who were not emotionally available or who were emotionally abusive.

And I wasn't connecting what all of my professional knowledge, I wasn't applying any of it to myself. I was able to give people this great advice, but I wasn't following it. I was doing completely what I would advise other people not to do. Why do you think that is? I mean, many complex reasons, you know,

from hormones, ADHD, childhood trauma, you know, it's such a, I don't think you can pinpoint one factor. I think it was a whole lot of things that were coming together to make me not value myself or not want to be able to help myself. But also it was almost automatic. It was almost like, I don't know anything different. So I'm going to keep repeating these very familiar patterns with these men

until I get a different outcome. But of course, the outcome is never going to be different because your date, I was dating the same man in a different form a hundred times. We've all been. So many of us have. And then I started having these kind of epiphanies. And actually a lot of that was to do with starting to understand more about the law of attraction and spirituality and valuing myself. And yeah, so then I was just like,

oh my God, I kind of get it now. I get where I've been going wrong. I get what this red flag means and how I should have been able to tell that this guy wanted to use me for sex. And it was like all these things were firing off in my brain and I was like, I have to tell women. I wanted to shout from the rooftops, like, I get it now.

And so I started writing a blog anonymously because obviously I was still working as a social worker and didn't want to be famous. None of this was about like, I want an Instagram platform or anything. It was like, I just want to spread this message. Maybe no one will hear it, but put it down in these blogs and they went viral. And then that led to the Instagram starting and then it's just gone from there and I've been able I was able to leave social work in 2018 and do this full-time now. So was the blog a bit more accessible for people that are like navigating modern dating and then I guess your social work stuff was the

more extreme end or were they quite blended? So I didn't tell anyone that I was a social worker when I was writing the blog and the blogs were very much like sort of Sex in the City vibes. Yeah. But obviously for someone who lives in like, you know, near Wood Green, not New York. So they were really like dating stories actually. They, I was charting like dates that I was going out on. So your personal experiences. They were really personal.

It was really, and people loved that. And actually in a way becoming more successful and a bit better known, put a stop to that because then I started to become more conscious of- So that was free. Well, because I didn't want to, because when I first started writing the blogs, I was really open.

I was like, you know, I went on this date with this guy who I really didn't like, but for some reason I ended up going back to his flat and letting him finger me, you know. And I was, it was important for me to write about that stuff there to explore what led me to do that and to disassociate and to know that I didn't want that. But it was important to explore that stuff. But then I guess I'm now in a position where I feel a bit more self-conscious about it. Like I'm not making those kinds of mistakes now, luckily.

But if I was, I think I wouldn't have that freedom anymore to feel like I could just write about it and not be judged for it Well, I guess now you've become a voice of authority in that space. Whereas perhaps before it was more cathartic expression of Like you say why did I make this decision and then and sharing things that people wouldn't usually write? Yeah the world to see. Yeah. And that's what made it blow up was because I was so honest that women were really able to see themselves.

And even if they weren't necessarily repeating the same patterns, it really unlocked stuff for women when I was writing these blogs, because they could relate, even though maybe they hadn't gone and got fingered after a date or whatever, they could still relate to that thing of not choosing themselves, doing stuff that didn't feel right.

Yeah, so let's go back to some of the early blog posts. What are some of the ones that blew up that you were like, well, I didn't expect that to, that really caught fire? Well, people loved my story about my first love, which was the guy who ended up going to prison, because I charted the whole story of how we fell in love. And actually, that's how I started to gain traction on Instagram, because I wrote half the story,

and then I wouldn't release the other half until I had a thousand followers. And then it really blew up because people wanted the second half so much that they were like, please just follow this woman so she'll release it. And then I got like 10,000 followers really quickly. But people really invested in that. They were really invested in another story that I spoke about that I titled,

The Time That I Lost My Mind, where I got into something with a guy who, I mean, the red flags were unreal. Like, I mean, he was really handsome. And this has actually always been a problem for me is that I, because that sounds stupid, really a problem for me. I just don't really give a handsome man. But no, it's always been a problem that I would prioritise looks. And actually exploring that in therapy is a lot to do with me feeling like the world needs to validate

me via my partner. Because like look who I've got on my arm. Yeah, I can only be validated if the world can see how great I am because you can see that I've been chosen by somebody that a lot of other people want. So there's a lot to unpick with that. And even now I'm still, I still find it really difficult not to be motivated very highly by how much I fancy someone and how much I'm attracted to them.

And within that, that also then blinds you from all the other things that you probably should pay attention to. Love is a powerful emotion. Love is a powerful motherfucker. You know? So if you're like, especially again, very related for me to ADHD, but also hormonally,

you know, if I meet you and I'm in my ovulation phase, because I really feel my menstrual cycle very, very strongly. If I'm in ovulation, I don't care if you told me you've just run over a cat and you don't give a shit, come and have sex with me right now. But then when I go into my luteal phase, right before I start to have a period again,

then I'm a completely different person and I might perceive you completely differently because there's no lust there. That's fascinating. So lust actually plays up at different phases of our cycle. Oh my God, yes. And I think that one of the things that I really talk to women who experience periods

about is the importance of tracking that cycle and how much it relates to how we interact with other people, but specifically in relationships and dating. And it has actually only been getting to know myself in terms of my menstrual cycle that I don't think therapy and all these other things that I would that I have done would have been so effective if I hadn't also understood them in the context of that cycle. Because I notice a lot of women online, I always find this funny, they'll say how I think it's just before their period, they like hate their partner,

wanna break up with them, like nitpicking at them, and then their period comes, they're like, oh. Yes. Yeah. And it seems to be a very common thing. Yeah. But why? Well, because, I mean, so I have PMDD, which is premenstrual disorder,

extremely common among women who have ADHD. And actually the symptoms of that will heighten as you become closer to perimenopause, which for most women begins late 30s, probably about 38. A lot of women find that scary to hear because perimenopause, we never are spoken to about that. So when you hear the word menopause, you think, what, my periods are ending. Actually, most women go through the menopause, or it can be all different ages.

Some women go through the menopause in their 30s. On average, most women will have the menopause when they're 50, mid 50s. But the menopause is one day, right? The menopause is one day and that is a day that marks the anniversary since you last had a bleed. So if you last had a bleed, I don't know, January, February, 2024, you haven't bled since,

then today, if that has been a year, you've now gone through the menopause. But in the lead up to the menopause, you have like a good 10, 15 years. When you're still having periods. Still having clockwork periods, but your body is coming down to its last few cycles. And I didn't know that.

Well, most of us don't because, and also you will find that unless the GP, women's health is so under-researched. If men had periods, oh my god, we would know so much about them, we'd have dedicated period weeks that all men didn't have to be at work, like, you know. But because it's women, we have been so under-researched and so undervalued that unless your GP has actually taken like a specialist interest in menopause and women's health, many of them just don't know. There's a lot of women that will go to GP

in their early 40s with perimenopause symptoms, which are just like feeling weird, feeling completely different, feeling very low energy, not being able to remember things as much, just not feeling the same as you did, but also symptoms like dry hair, drier skin, like pain in your shoulder, rashes, itching at night, all of these things.

And women who are like 42 can go to the GP with all of those things and the GP will say, I don't know what's wrong with you. When actually they should be saying, you might be in perimenopause and estrogen might help you now, or hormone replacement might help you now. How does it affect your sexual desire? Well, for some women it just can fall off completely.

For other women, they can go incredibly horny. For some women it's almost like your body is like, right, here we go girls, we've got the last few eggs, so get out there and get them fertilized. Other people go off sex completely. And also, you know, you can have body changes as you approach perimenopause. Your middle might get wider. Your, you know, your waist might sort of seem like it's starting to disappear again. Your vagina, we were actually talking about this on my page, total new information, but your labia can even start to shrink because of the lack of estrogen.

And again, a lot of, when I was posting about this on my page, loads of women were like, oh my God, this has been happening to me. But I just thought like my vagina was falling, my vulva was falling off. So we're so- And also it would feel so isolating if you were feeling like something that was happening and you've never heard of it.

Yeah. It's a symptom for anything like where do you go? Absolutely. You wouldn't necessarily feel comfortable with the GP being like, like the vagina's shrinking. Exactly. And a lot of GPs will probably just be like, well, whatever.

Who cares? Get on with it. I mean, some GPs are fantastic and are brilliant. But this is why so many women are now turning to specialist private menopause doctors, because they understand perimenopause. They understand that it actually starts pretty early. They understand that if women are given hormone replacements or alternatives, then they don't have to suddenly

fall apart in their 40s and late 30s and early 50s and whatever. But in terms of dating, you know, because originally what you were asking me really before I started going on about perimenopause was about the cycle and how that affects us. And again, we're so robbed of this stuff. I say that really every teenage girl, when she starts her period, should be taught to track it, track what day is this, but also to know roughly what's going to be happening in your cycle at that time and start to write it down because I think a lot of people are educated with this belief that the worst day is when you start your period like I'm on my period that's a really bad time. Actually for a lot of women the hormones that are released when you start your period it's a relief from the luteal phase, which is what you've been in for two weeks before your period.

When you're ovulating, you have lots of estrogen. It's hard to explain, but imagine the day of your period is day one. The day that you start your period is day one. For your period and then about 10 days or so after, for the first two weeks, you're literally gearing up to ovulate and then ovulating. So your body is like, we wanna get pregnant.

So your body is looking favorably on the men around you. Your body is thinking, well, that work, that guy would make a good dad because he's got eyebrows that are this, you know, and a masculine jaw and whatever. Your body's not thinking, is he kind? Can he care for me? It's thinking, gross, he a ma.

Yeah. But as I say, when the estrogen levels drop and progesterone rises, when you go into a luteal phase, that can completely change. And you can feel like I don't wanna be touched. I don't want you near me. And if you're not connecting that necessarily to what's going on hormonally, you might think,

fuck this guy, you know, get away from me. I don't even fancy him anymore. So it can affect you early dating stages and throughout relationship. So have you found that you can really differ in how you view a certain person, depending on where you're at in your cycle? Absolutely hugely. I have just experienced it and it's been so stuck. I met him,

I think. So we've been speaking for a little while. We had our first date when I was on my period. And I thought, okay, he's cute. Like he's all right, let's see what happens. Definitely ready for a second date, but not 100% sure if he's fully my type, but I need to, you know, it doesn't matter if he's my type. Then we were actually quite intensely dating, going on quite a lot of dates.

So then I remember as the dates were coming towards my ovulation, I was just like, fuck, I'm so into this guy now. Like I want to be all over him. I want to kiss him. Like I can't stop thinking about him. Like I'm into this. And then I went into my luteal phase.

We went for a date and instantly I was like, oh my God, I don't like his hair, I don't like his teeth. I've just touched his neck and I can feel that he's got a really hairy back. I don't like that. You know, things that were as before when I was in ovulation, I'd been like, yeah, hairy. Wow, that's a real man. You know, and then I'm in my knees. What's your conclusion of that experience? Well, you know what? As for him as a partner for you? What I have started to do is it's really important for me,

specifically because I have PMDD, so everything is very heightened. You can't go with the feelings too much. Well, I have to be very aware of them. You know, like ADHD girlies with the crossover with PMDD, the best advice I can give to anyone like that is to actually be, first of all, know yourself really well, understand where you're at, and communicate that in the best way that you can. So I was really clear with him from the start,

like I have PMDD and this is how my cycle affects me. And at this time of the month, I'm probably going to be really unreasonable. And I might be a bit horrible to you. And I might not want you to touch me. And you shouldn't take that personally, because that's just me. And I will do my best. Yeah, and I will do my best, but it's really difficult because like he's really tall. So I was looking up at him and I could just see bogies up his nostrils.

And it made me in previous times, that would be enough for me to go like, oh, he can never father my children. Whereas now I'm like, Oh, can you please get rid of those bogies? Because they're really stressing me out. And he just thinks it's funny. He'll just get rid of the bogies and that's done, you know. There are so many things I want to dive into here. But the ADHD piece when it comes to dating, because you've mentioned that a couple of times. How does that play out for you?

Well, I mean everybody with ADHD is very different. We all have kind of different, some are inattentive, some are hyper, some are a combination. For me, ADHD has had a huge impact on my dating life, mainly because I am very impulsive. I also chase dopamine. I was just about to say, because I was actually speaking with someone, this was in the context of drinking and ADHD and how you are prone to chase the dopamine. So I guess this makes complete sense that in dating, you therefore are going to go for like that quick fire hit. Yeah, exactly. It's just terrible way of approaching dating. Like that seems fun. Let me go for that and get really addictive. All consuming. Drug like. Exactly that. I mean, people with ADHD will know like if you eat something and you discover that you really like that thing, you will eat that thing every day for a month

until you're sick of it. Until you cannot eat it anymore. And that is very much how I have previously approached dating, which is like, oh, I want that. And I like that, so now I need to be with you every day and you need to be meeting my needs. You're the one who gives me that dopamine and you need to come back for it. So yeah and limerence. Have you ever heard of limerence? No. So limerence is a term that was coined by a

psychologist called Dorothy Tenov in the 1970s and she was studying how people fall in love. And she was saying, she identified this kind of subgroup of people. So most people sort of fall in love normally, you know, they slowly get to know people, but if you're quite a securely attached person, then you realize that falling in love takes time and you love in quite a healthy way where you know that actually if this love went, then that would all be all right and whatever. But then she identified that there's like a subgroup

of people who experienced something called limerence. And limerence is when it's infatuation and obsession. So it's that thing where you could maybe match someone on a dating app or meet somebody at a bar. And as you said, it becomes all consuming almost from the moment that or maybe not the moment you start speaking, but there'll be a point at which you're like, yeah, I like this one. And that will probably be quite early before you could ever know whether you really like this person. You don't even know their last name. Exactly. You don't know how they handle conflict.

You don't know what their values and their morals are, but you're like, I like this one. And your life begins to revolve around them. Your mood is dictated by whether they are in contact or not. So if you are in limerence, then you might wake up to a morning text from your person. Your whole day will go well. You have a spring in your step.

Life is good. If, however, there is then a change in that communication, tomorrow morning you wake up and there's no text and you don't hear from them and it's 11 o'clock and you still haven't heard from them. You can't think about anything else. You can barely listen when your boss is talking to you. If your phone goes off and it's your mate,

you're like, fucked off with your mate. Like, why are you ringing me? Because I've got the dopamine telling me it might be them and it wasn't you then, it was you. You know, you would, in limerence, be in that situation where it might be your grandma's 80th birthday at the weekend. But if this person is like, listen, the only time I'm going to be able to see you is this weekend, you'll be maybe flying through your nan's 80th, like, sorry, I've got somewhere else I need to be, you know what I mean?

Yeah. So it takes away that kind of rational logical part completely and everything is eclipsed by this person. Yes. But this differs from attachment theory because I've actually never heard about this but it makes so much sense but I feel like there's so much focus on avoidant anxious attached that this yeah and usually people would equate a similar behaviour to anxiously attached people. Yes, and I think this is the difficulty is that we always want to label things and that it's very difficult to know where one thing starts and the other one stops because also I do have an anxious, well actually you know, this is something I've been thinking about recently

is that I've always labelled myself as anxiously attached. I don't think I'm anxiously attached. I think I have a disorganised attachment but also when I think about friendships I have a really secure attachment style, extremely secure. I can maintain friendships, I'm really good with friendships. I'm extremely secure. I can maintain friendships. I'm really good with friendships. So actually, is that my attachment style? If I can attach to other people, if I can bond and create love

and I'm not fearful of friendships, is that my attachment style? Because your attachment style comes from your initial caregivers. So it's how you relate to any form of relationship. But certainly when it comes to men, I've always had what I believed was an anxious attachment style because I'd feel sort of clingy and needy and very anxious if I felt like rejected or abandoned at any time. But then I realized that I'm quite disorganized

in that because actually that's not the case all the time because if a man is too interested in me, I become the avoidant one. Yes. Sorry, I laughed because I feel like I'm exactly the same in that in friendships, great, but then relationships, it all gets a little bit muddied and I always associated myself as anxiously attached and then that now I'm actually, I call it fearful avoidant. Yeah. Yeah, so it's like actually if someone then is leaning in too close I then go into the avoidant and kind of want to push away but as long as they're leaning back enough I can play the attached role. How have you managed that in terms of now being in a long-term relationship?

Honestly it's been, that's when it's all come up because it's, in relationship with friends, there's a natural distance, right? So sometimes I won't respond for like a week. I think people are quite used to that from me. I don't feel like ever coming's like coming into my space. Whereas I think when I moved in with my partner, that's when all of this stuff started flaring up

where I felt very kind of, I guess for lack of a better word, like claustrophobic, so I was like, where do I retreat to if we're like sharing, like cohabiting? And that's when I really started to pay attention to this other aspect of myself that had always been there, but I had just never really noticed. And it's just, I've had to just, just work on it really. Relationships are really exposing, aren't they?

Yeah, they're so exposing. Yeah, they really teach you. All that stuff. Yeah, they're very exposing. I find that even in the early days of dating or the early, you know, when you're starting to move towards that relationship place with a new person, I think the exposure of who you are and kind of what your emotional needs are, it really starts to be very heightened.

And if you don't address that, then you will just keep repeating the same pattern. Yeah, and I also deeply relate to everything you said about the, is it limerence? Because I, historically, like, I've had many relationships, but they've all been about nine months. So at nine months, I would be out. I'd find something that had gone wrong and just,

I guess that's the point where really like the honeymoon phase is over and it kind of goes into a more mature phase. And also was always guilty of like going 100 miles an hour right at the beginning, all consuming, like love at first sight, was very addicted to that dopamine hit. Whereas the relationship I'm like now,

we've been together for over three years. And I definitely, there's a part of me that struggles with like the calm, you know? And I think there's a part of me that's like, where's the chaos? Which is so, so problematic. And like you say, if you're not careful, if you don't recognize these

things in yourself, you just like chase the same person in a different form and then wonder why you're not really getting the relationship that you think that you really want or desire. Yeah, exactly that. And it's just, it's also, you know, going back to what you said about is it anxious attachment style or is it limerence? And it's like what came first, the chicken or the egg? What is it? What is it? Is it ADHD? Is it the PMDD? Is it limerence? Is it anxious attachment style? Is it the fact that I'm living in a society that tells me I should be a certain way as a woman and these are your gender roles I should be a certain way as a woman and these are your gender roles because I don't quite fit into What those are is that what the conflict where is this coming from? And I also think sometimes

There is a bit too much of that on social media What of the labeling of the oh this is happening? It must be this. And I'm not sure, I think that is actually very helpful, but also I think a lot of us are sort of pathologizing and diagnosing ourselves with things and wanting to know, well, what is it that's causing this? And I wonder if that sometimes sort of also takes us away from being present in individual situations and because we are constantly like what am I doing here am I showing up with this that and the other rather than just being

but then sometimes just being doesn't actually work because I've just been in for many years and that hasn't got me very far you know. And I guess also allowing that to, you know, you can have different experience, you can have different feelings in the same experience. I'm not saying that quite right, but as in, I think as soon as we start to think something that's different from what we thought previously, or that conflicts with that, we go into like a panic state that we want to self-diagnose in some capacity rather than knowing that love in its essence is quite paradoxical and we're going to have like whether it's to do with our cycle or just what's going on in that day we're going to have feelings that change.

Yes. And that that's okay. Yeah exactly yeah and not necessarily thinking that there is something wrong with this, you know, just because an emotion doesn't necessarily feel comfortable, it doesn't mean that there's something wrong or that you need to fix it. It's just something that you need to explore and sit with and wonder what's triggered this or where is this coming from? Because we spoke a little bit at the beginning about shame, mainly in the context of like sexual shame, but this is also a shame piece. I think when people feel something, they're

like, I'm not supposed to think or feel that because it goes against what I'm trying to create in my life and my relationship. How do you think we can create more spaces for alleviating that? Hmm. Well, I mean, I guess it's just going easy on yourself. Because if you're talking about experiencing shame, because there's some kind of conflict around, like I'm going for this guy who is very dominant, and I shouldn't like that, but actually, I do. You know, is that

the kind of thing that you mean where there's that kind of conflict? Because with things like that, again, if you're approaching relationships because of what all the voices around you are saying, because of what all the voices on social media are saying or your family or friends of what you should feel or what you should be doing or what this all should look like. If that feels not right or you feel that you're, well actually sorry there's so many nuances to this because I don't want to say, because I've given that example of like a dominant relationship and you're being told that you shouldn't want this but actually you do. Sometimes your friends are telling you not to be involved in this stuff because actually this is quite dangerous for you. But other times I think that we

do sometimes, so again with that guy that I was dating recently. You're still dating him? The bogies? I don't know. I don't know. There's been some things that have really put me off actually over this last weekend. I'll be really honest. I think he hasn't impressed me. I hosted a Galentine's event this weekend. And it was a really big event for me. It's my, you know, I do them every six months, but because I don't have, because I'm anonymous, it's like quite a big deal for me to like show myself

to all these people. They're no phones events and whatever. And I was also on, I was helping to co-hosting on Radio One or just doing a slot on Radio One on Sunday afternoon. So it was like a big weekend of me shining. And he has been doing lots of stuff, like had some achievements over the last couple of months. And I've really celebrated that.

Like he moved into a new flat. I bought him like tea bags and some little things that I thought he'd like. Just cheap stuff, but like, you know, showing up for him. He's been really enthusiastic about the projects that he's had on. And then anyway, I had my weekend this weekend and his communication completely changed. So he's been really good, really consistent,

really everything's been normal. And then on the morning of my event, he just doesn't message. And then he messaged just before the event starts and he's like, good luck, keep me posted about when I'm seeing you later. And I kind of thought there might be more of a like, hey, you're gonna smash it today. But that's fine, you know.

And then he came and met me and my team after, which is quite a big deal for me to be introducing you to my team, these are really important people in my life. And we were at my house, so invited him, it wasn't like an after party, but I guess it was, because we'd had the event and then, and he turned up empty handed, which again, I hope I'm not being perceived as like,

people are hearing this like, oh, she just wants things. Like to me, I would never turn up to that kind of event, empty handed, like you'd always bring a bottle or, but I don't know, I felt like, where are the flower? Where is the something? Where is anything, you know? And then he didn't tune in when I was on Radio One and he'd been a bit quiet that day as well.

And I just got this sense that maybe me shining is not... He doesn't like it because it's completely different. Energy from him. Total different energy. And I know that some people might listen to this and be like, I know men will listen to this and think, well, how can you be not liking the guy when you have these expectations?

Did you communicate your expectations to him? No, because I don't feel like I should say to someone, by the way, when I am doing something big, I expect to be celebrated, I expect to be encouraged, I expect to be given, no expect to be encouraged, I expect to be given no, because there are some expectations in relationships that are incredibly important. People are not psychic. You have to tell people that these are my expectations in many areas. But I think for things like that, it's like if somebody died in my family this week, I don't feel like I have to

communicate in advance. By the way, if I'm in grief, this week, I don't feel like I have to communicate in advance. By the way, if I'm in grief, I expect support. There's just some things that I think don't need pre-communicating those expectations. And it's also that you picked up on something which is quite significant that you feel like he's not someone that's actually gonna be able to champion you.

Yeah. I've actually had quite a few friends talk to me about this because it's still relatively new that we are able to do what we do and build the careers and, you know, host all the things and everything like that. So it's to a degree kind of new territory, but I think in the context of relationships and roles that people expect, like gender roles, people expect people to play, like, it is something that seems to be coming up. And I think women sometimes feel like they might have to make themselves smaller, you

know, because they don't like, rather than receiving that and going, okay, this person has an issue with me shining, like that's a no, they go, well, maybe I just won't shine. Yes, this is the problem. And I think it is a real issue. I think I've certainly noticed it for myself and all of my friends. And I mean, enough women will tell you. Men, and I say men because it's not all men,

but I don't feel like I should have to make that caveat because we know we're not talking about every single man in the entire world. But on the whole, men don't like successful women. They have, I guess, been societally conditioned to feel that it is emasculating if your partner is doing financially better than you or just doing really well and being able to hold her own. There is no sense of pride in that for a lot of men. For a lot of men, all that does is makes them feel perplexed

about how am I going to keep this relationship because I'm supposed to be the provider. And if she can provide for herself, then what's my role? How do I show up in this? And I think most men wouldn't admit it. I think a lot of men, if you said to them, maybe they don't even realize it themselves. If you said to them, like, would you like a really successful, powerful woman, they would probably think, yeah, yeah, that sounds great. But actually, the reality of it is that there is something emasculating in it for them. And they're not quite sure what they're supposed to do with successful women. Myself, I know for sure when I was a social worker or even before that, when I was running about doing admin roles and things like that,

men wanted to have relationships with me. It was much easier. Now that I'm much more successful, I'm self-employed, I'm earning more money, I have more of an established career. Very hard to get men to... Really? Yeah, unless they're doing way better than me. Um, but I don't date on, like,

I don't care if you're an Amazon delivery driver. If you've got incredible qualities, then I wouldn't phase you out for that reason, but, um... Because I guess for sort of to play the devil's advocate, you could look at it both ways that, and if we look at like the Andrew Tates of the world, you know, apparently he's sort of like changed now, whatever, but.

Yeah, I don't think that's possible. But if you think how much of a following he can generate from his messaging, it shows that there is a group of men that are feeling very sidelined, because as women are becoming more independent and successful, and don't need a man financially, which historically they have, like marriage has often been based on an economic thing, then these men are feeling misplaced because women are like, they're

not getting a look in. Because in a way, women have kind of up-leveled, you know. And then so perhaps they are then expecting more from men than men feel they are able to deliver, possibly. Possibly. I mean, what people are asking men to do is just be good people. Good, you know, equal partners to treat women like friends rather than subservient creatures who are there to incubate babies and cater to their every need. And yes, there is... I mean, there's a lot going on at the moment,

and I think that in terms of Trump's re-election, And yes, there is, I mean, there's a lot going on at the moment. And I think that in terms of Trump's reelection and Elon Musk and Andrew Tate and how all of these things are connected, we are now heading into a huge change in the world politically. Trump has heavily been influenced by, have you heard of Project 2025? So Project 2025 is a political manifesto that was developed by a number of people

that were in Trump's previous administration. They are evangelical Christians, highly fundamental Christian biblical beliefs. And I mean, they're the people who are very like pro-life anti-abortion, even in the cases of children who've been raped. But what they believe is that the traditional nuclear family model has to return. That what is wrong with the world is that we have moved away from Christian fundamental relationship dynamics and the way that we raise our children and that we have to get back to that.

All of this stuff at the moment is a backlash to feminism and the rights that were won by women who we needed them because we knew how miserable it was in the 1950s. We knew that women were surviving on, you know, benzos and having lobotomies and stuff because life was so incredibly miserable because they couldn't do anything without a husband. You couldn't rent a flat by yourself until like 1975 in this country without a man's permission. You couldn't have a passport. You couldn't take out a bank loan until like 1981. You could legally rape your wife until 1991. So these, as you say, are really like recent hard-won rights. And yes, it has moved into a different world model because women are now saying,

we don't have to be trapped into this just for survival. We actually can fend for ourselves. And in some ways, motherhood and marriage is a trap. You know, Kanye tweeted out last night something about sex workers are hoes, you know, they sell pussy for one night. Wives sell pussy for their whole lives because there is something to be said for the fact

that actually marriage for women is like a sex work industry or traditionally always has been. We're giving up something in return for the house and the protection and the security that we always needed. And then we stopped needing that as much. And instead of men leveling up and saying, actually we can now create a new relationship dynamic, which is much more based on equality, which is much more based on equality,

which is much more based on two people raising children, compromise, you know, making the most sensible decision about who's earning the most. Women don't have better qualities for raising children, men can do it just as easily. But there has been this huge backlash, Project 2025, the likes of Andrew Tate. You even have your kind of soft influencers who aren't Andrew Tate like, but you've got your Stephen Bartlett, Paul C. Brunson, all of them are saying the same kind of stuff about men are really lonely now.

This is a real bad, you know, we've got to really look at men and we've got to really look at what's going on and hypergamy and the male loneliness epidemic and all of this kind of stuff. When actually all of this stuff you're talking about is just a backlash to feminism. It is all of this stuff you're talking about is men just going, ah, it's not the same. We can't just sit here and be men and get all the women. Like we have to do something now. None of this is our fault. Male loneliness is not our fault, you know.

Yeah, and another thing that I noticed in this sort of male podcaster space without naming any names is this like subtle misogyny that is just like this boys club. And if you notice like what they're saying, it's kind of, yeah, wanting women to play that supportive subservient role, but kind of romanticising it as like feminine.

Yes. Oh my God, it drives me insane. And it's all sort of guised as very forward-thinking philosophies and like personal development, but actually they rarely, rarely have women talking about feminism. Like I actually remember listening to one and it was like a podcast on feminism on a male, on a man's podcast with another man talking about like the problems of that. I was like, this is just ridiculous. But I think what people don't like, everything you've just said, what people don't realize is we've forgotten, we've forgotten so much of what you just said because it wasn't our lived experience.

So what we fought for that is now being eradicated in these quite, they're not subtle ways, but they're sort of devious ways that we don't really know. We're almost playing into it ourselves. Yes, we are. And I think that it's really problematic because you do have like this whole tradwife community. Exactly. Which I often speak about.

I'm not trying to be rude to anyone that wants to live that life. But again, it's got that messaging of, you know, I just want, you know, the man will be responsible for everything and I'll just, I always use the words of like making sourdough in the kitchen. But it's again, romanticizing and equating like being feminine with being subservient. Absolutely. And there is something, there's so many spaces that kind of touch on it. So as you say, like the child wife community, but then you've also got the spiritual and wellness community

that are very into the idea of the divine feminine and the divine masculine, which are all really valid concepts. But when you then start to apply it in a way, which is like, woman equals, step into your feminine or you will never be achieving the right relationship. Men, you must be the masculine provider. And it's also saying that the masculine leads and the woman surrenders. And where does this leave like trans and non-binary people? Where does this leave queer relationships? You know, you're not...

You're not making any sense. What you're doing is you're just talking about socially constructed things. This is a social construction, the gender roles. It is not... You know, men and women are different. We have different, you know, as a whole, again, because all women and men are, all women are very different to each other.

We're not all the same. And there are so many women that have strong leadership qualities, that have, you know, can be the provider. And there are so many men who are deeply nurturing and caring. It is a social construct that tells us that, oh, those two people are in the wrong roles.

They're not. Each individual is built how they're built, and then society is going to say, you know, because you're a man, you must be this way, or you must be that way. And that's when things become toxic, because actually a lot of men are trying to be something that they're not.

They're getting into relationships thinking, I must be provider, I must be alpha male. That's not coming naturally to you. So you're constantly inauthentic. You're not being you. And actually if you were able as a man to step into your, I don't even know why we'd call it feminine, but be okay with having

the more nurturing qualities. Be okay with the one that wants to stay at home looking after the kids. You know, you'd have a much better time in life. But all of it is so complex and problematic. And I think that for me, such a big thing in helping me to date better and differently was recognizing how much me as a heterosexual woman, how much those characteristics impact on my dating experiences. So people who just talk about dating in a genderless way, you're not getting it. As a woman, I started out my life with big boobs at 14, walking down the street, getting catcalled by men in white vans, telling me they wanted to fuck me

or touch my tits or whatever. That experience shapes how I'm viewed by men, how I see myself in the world. Men's ideas about women and women's sexuality and being a slag or all of those kinds of things, if you've slept with too many people, all of those things impact on every single woman

when dating, sexism, misogyny, women's place in the world, the way that men and the world see women, all of that stuff has an impact. And unless you are acknowledging yourself within that, you are not going to be able to date as safely and as healthily. What, because you need to be aware of it, how it plays out in yourself and also in the other.

Because sexism and misogyny has such a huge part to play in all of our relationships, or it has done traditionally. Because the models of relationships that we're being fed to us, as we've said, is you must do what your grandma did, and your granddad did, and what those people did before them. But until you start to realize why our grandmas did that, within the context of feminism and the world,

until you start to understand that me having sex on a first night is going to be perceived differently to him having sex on a first night is going to be perceived differently to him having sex on a first night by so many men. Yeah, well, let's tap into that one. Cause I think that's probably one of the most common double standards. And even, I think you can have the nicest man

that presents very lovely qualities. And then this can rear up and you're like, whoa, there's suddenly this judgment or slut shaming that is it his? Is it a collective thing? Is it historical? Doesn't really matter, but it's there and you feel it. And suddenly you you feel like you've done something wrong. Whereas, like you say, the exact same experience, but on a man has a totally different perception.

Yeah. How do we navigate that in the world that we live in? That's just one example, but there's just countless when we are clearly dating in a world that we don't have the tools to date in. Yeah. So that's the thing, you can't be neutral in your advice on dating.

I don't think personally, because things are so different. You can't give a man the same advice about sleeping with someone on the first night, because it's completely different, unless he's gay. You know what I mean? Then there's something maybe different. But if you are talking about heterosexual dating, then it is really important to recognise

how contradictory all of that stuff is and how things are perceived differently. I mean, the thing that I always say about sleeping with somebody on the first night, for example, or in very early dating stages, is that if that puts a man off because he thinks, oh, you know, she must be easy. And even though I've done it on the first night too,

I can't respect a woman. Like you haven't lost anything because we don't want men who are that basic in their thinking anyway. We don't want to go out. Because also it's like, if, do the maths, like if you're going out, please, you're like, come on, you idiot. But you also don't want to be in that situation

where you have had sex with somebody, assuming that this is just a natural time, we've got great chemistry, we really like each other, this seems fun, he's up for it, I'm up for it. Yes, we're not in a relationship and we haven't had that conversation yet, but yeah, let'm up for it. Yes, we're not in a relationship and we haven't had that conversation yet but yeah, let's just do it. And then you are faced with that horrific, I mean, it's such a horrific feeling of like the next morning, he hasn't messaged and two hours later, he

hasn't messaged and then it's like, oh my God, by the end of the day, it's like, what was wrong with me? Was I bad in bed? Like, does he think I'm a slag now? You know, does he hate me? A man would never be faced with that. He might have some anxiety around if he'd had a bit of erectile dysfunction or something, but he's not gonna be thinking, does she dislike me now because I'm a slug or a whore?

He wouldn't be feeling that enormous shame. No, exactly. And quite often, it's not even because of that. Actually, sometimes guys are put off because they think, oh, she might have been easy. Sometimes for them, it's just the challenge is gone. And I've heard from a lot of men that actually, there is something in that buildup.

There is something for chase. Chemical and hormonal. And they want that chase. They want to feel like it's been a bit of a challenge. So it is a game to play. And I do really advise women, look, there's been many marriages that have started with first night sex. Millions and millions and millions of people will tell you that they thought it was going to be a one night stand. It was an amazing casual sex session and then they never left each other's beds for 20 years.

But also if you are dating intentionally as a woman, I would really recommend taking as long as possible as you can until you get into bed with them. It's not foolproof because some of the manipulators are in it for the long haul. And they will stay around for the change. And they will still do that anyway. But I think there is really something to be said for dating properly and staying out with the bedroom for quite some time.

I completely agree. Because like you say, it is just different. No matter how much we try and you know, I think there are a lot of, and I'm sure you've come across it, women that want to behave in the same way and think that there isn't a difference, but there is. And you can behave in the same way. You can take home your sex. Depending on what you want. Yes, you can fuck whoever you want as a woman, as far as I'm concerned, as long as you're doing it for the right reasons and you're enjoying it and you're actually getting sexual pleasure

and some kind of fulfillment from it. But I think- You're seeking relationships. If you're seeking love and relationships, then yeah, hold off. And I think that a lot of people are really resistant to that advice because it does sound like game playing and it does sound like we're sort of telling women

that you can't be sexual beings if you want to be taken seriously. And you absolutely can, but the facts remain that if you want a relationship with that person, then the longer that you wait for sex, the more likely it is that that will happen. 100%. What are some of the red flags that you noticed

with the people that message you of things that they're navigating that you see time and time again, that you're like, I wish people would recognize this early on and stop just going straight into it. Yeah, I mean, you know, I get a lot of messages from people who are in abusive relationships. And sometimes the people will be right at the early stages of those abusive

relationships. And what are the telltale signs of that? Well, so in the early stages, one of the biggest ones, which is so difficult to identify, is love bombing. And really, you can't spot the love bombing until the point that they switch that tap off because they can seem so incredible at the time. They're really keen, they're really... And also it's what we're told is what romance is. Exactly that. We want that consistency. We want somebody who's supposed to be into us.

And if we're feeling good about ourselves, then it's really hard to spot love bombing because you can think like, yeah, of course you adore me. Like I'm adorable. But sometimes if the love bombing is too intense, then that's really obvious. You know, if you were- Like if someone's listening and that's kind of raising a bit of a red flag. So if somebody is saying to you,

early on, I'd say within the first three months, that's especially within the first couple of weeks, the first month that they can see a future with you, starting to make long term plans, like talking to you about going away next Christmas, telling you things like, it's just me and you, it's always been me and you, you know, I've never felt anything like this before in my life, that real kind of we are one soul,

like this is unreal. And it can feel like it is that, but you have to step back from that limerence. You have to step into reality and realize that these are emotions, these are feelings, but they're not reality because you can't know that you want to be with someone for the rest of your life who you've known for a month, and you've never seen how they behave

in a serious road rage situation. You've never seen how they are with their mother. You've never seen how they are when a child is next to them being really annoying on a long-haul flight. You know, all of these little things that you start to see over time to help you decide. To really inform you about that person. Yeah, and help you to know. I don't believe you can love someone until you know them, because love is a verb. It is a doing word. It's not just a feeling. You might have these strong

feelings of like, I can't stop thinking about this person. I want to be with them all the time, but that's not love. That is lust and that is limerence. Love is when you actively want to do things for this person to enhance their life, when you want to care for them, when their feelings become a priority to you, equal to your own and sometimes even above your own. But you can't know any of those things until you know that person. So I think you really do have to be very clear

about the difference between love, last, limerence, and H.T. And longing as well. Longing, yeah, and desperation. Because if you're dating when you're desperate, lonely, then you're gonna accept whatever anyone's offering you. And also love bombing, like there's a difference between consistency and smothering. You know,

I've definitely experienced it where I've been, I remember I had one situation where I thought, I was like, God, this person is just so consistent. He's really letting me know how he feels like I love this. I quickly realized that he was just love bombing me like crazy. And yeah, luckily, quickly got out of it. But like you say, so there's, there's often a turning point where that love bombing you. So love bombing is a big indication in your experience from work and personally of abuse? Oh yeah, I mean, love bombing is such a huge thing and it will be things like that real intensity, wanting to be together all the time, big future declarations, maybe even buying you things, expensive things, you know, real intense love bombing. And then what often happens is that,

how you'll identify that it's love bombing is that they will change. One morning they won't text you like you've been used to them texting you every day of your whole relationship, good morning, and then one day they won't. And then that leaves you feeling anxious. It makes you think like, oh have they died? You know? And oh my god, what? Yeah, but then you'll know they haven't died, they are alive. They're just, you know, pulling back from the communication. But then they'll tell you that, you know, the communication hasn't changed,

I'm still here, babe, like, why are you being weird for? But you'll feel it, you'll feel that change. Or what can happen, another way that love bombing can end is if, for example, everything's going beautifully, but then you displease them. So you might say for example, everything's going beautifully, but then you displease them. So you might say, oh, I'm going out with the girls this Saturday. It's a friend's birthday. And they'll be like, oh, I assumed that we were going to be seeing each other because I can't see you on Friday. And then you'll feel like, oh, no, no, I'm going to see the girls.

And then it'll be like, but like, I bought you that bag. And like, you know, we've been together every day. And you got like that feeling of like, you owe, we've been together every day and you've got like that feeling of like you owe me, but you owe me your time now. Look how good I've been to you. I've been so intense with you. And then you start canceling those things with your friends. Exactly, so then you start thinking,

oh God, like they're right actually. I do, you know, maybe that is a bit selfish for me to go out with my friends when they have been so amazing and they, you know, I don't want to leave them alone for this weekend. Or if they've changed the love bombing by pulling away, that makes you very anxious and makes you want to just like, love me, love me, love me. But the love bombing certainly categorizes it. But again, the things like, oh, do you have to go out with your friends this weekend? All of those are terrible signs for abuse because it's lovewarming and then it's the control and

Isolation and sometimes you can't even feel like you're being you don't even feel like you've been controlled It is so subtle that actually they'll get to you to the point where you're Choosing to go out with your friends because either they have been sowing seeds about, these people, those girls, I don't think they actually have your back. Did you hear what this girl, they'll start pointing out things in your friendship groups to start to make you feel like

you can't trust those people anymore. And actually the only person you can trust is this person you're in a relationship with. Slowly isolating you from everyone. Slowly isolating you, slowly controlling you, telling you. Again, sometimes it's not even like you can't wear that when you go out. It'll be more subtle than that. It'll be like, that's a lot of cleavage in your Instagram picture.

Then you might say, do you not like it? But they might say, no, it's not that I don't like it. It's just that like what might other people think? You know, you're in a relationship with me and you know, we're not portraying this relationship very well if you're like on Instagram with your boobs out. You know, then you can start to think like, oh yeah, maybe, maybe he's right.

You can start to modify your clothing. You can start to modify how often you go out, you start to operate your life in a way that is only about keeping them happy, because if they're not happy, they're withdrawing their love. And sometimes actually it's worse than withdrawing their love. They're abusing you, they are berating you,

and that can start off really subtle. Again, it's not, you know, people say, how did you get into this abusive relationship? Well, why didn't you leave? Well, it's because at the beginning, it's not straight off like, you're an ugly bitch. It is...

And also, if you've never experienced it before, you're not going to know. Do you think it's possible that some of those things can be rectified? No. No. No, not if we're talking about domestic abuse, no. But if it's more the sort of like slightly controlling things at the beginning that you rather than going along with it you can be like hang on a sec this doesn't sit right

with me. Yes. Can we address it? I think that if you are someone who is confident in setting your boundaries and is able to do that then if you're recognizing sometimes people get things wrong because they are, they don't know how to approach relationships and they are perhaps too intense and perhaps their attachment style is making them clingy and needy and then that can appear controlling. So I guess not everybody is necessarily an abuser, but I wouldn't, I don't like to be

the one who's out here saying if you're seeing signs of control, you should sit there and set boundaries around that. If you feel confident and able to do that, like, this ain't happening, mate. Like I'm going to continue to wear what I want. I'm going to continue to see my friends. Like I recognize these signs. I don't like them. These are my boundaries. You cannot ever tell me where I can go or what I can do. Perhaps you can get through that kind of situation, but I, because abuse starts

so subtly and so slowly, I'm loathe to sort of say anything other than if you spot the signs of control, go. You know, especially to women because the risk at the end of it is that we might not make it out of this relationship alive. So, you know, you do have to be careful. And what are some of the other things that you would say to really be aware of in dating that might not be that obvious unless you'd had the experiences that you have from work and personally all the stories that you've heard? Well, I mean, it's not necessarily things that aren't obvious because I think a lot of the red flags are really obvious stuff.

But I think then sometimes we don't, it's not until after that we realise that this is a red flag. You know, things like driving really, really fast when you're in the car. You know, I don't, I, I, I, that's so true. You know, weird things like that where you, where you wouldn't necessarily crock it, but I've been in the car with men before. It's so funny that you say that because actually the same person that loved Bombi, I won't go into the whole story but it ended up, I mean it was so love Bombi that our first and only date was in Italy so he took me to Italy which was so romantic then quickly realized like this is really, I mean he was like planning our entire future and it was just like so intense.

And I then was like, I need to leave, like I need to get on a flight right now. And he was the only person that I knew there, so I was like totally reliant on him to even get to the airport. And so I had to say to him, like, I'm really sorry, but I'd only been there one night and I was supposed to be there for another like five nights or something. I was like, I'm gonna go home. And he went ballistic. And then he had to drive me to the airport.

And the way he drove, I thought, I thought I was gonna die. I was honestly like, he was like screaming. He was playing really loud music. He was like shouting in Italian. And I was like, oh my God. And look, it makes kind of a funny story because I like lived to tell the tale, but it was that driving especially,

I was like, this is so terrifying. Yeah. Because it felt like it was trying to scare me a little bit. Yeah, well it's showing you who's boss, it's showing you who's in control. I've been in that situation with a few men where they have just put their foot down,

like turned up the music, driven at like 100 miles an hour down some little side road in London and I've been like, oh, like I'm a mom, please like don't do this, like I don't want to be in this situation. And they just kind of laugh. And instantly to me, that is such a red flag. Like you've not done anything abusive, anything that's like, you know, illegal or whatever. But the way that you have shown me,

what you have shown me in that instance is you don't care about, you don't care. You're quite enjoying the adrenaline of scaring me a little bit. You're enjoying the power that you have over me in this moment. And you are trying to show me some masculine, like I'm in control of this vehicle and you.

So even subtle things like that are enough to put me off, if I am out and about dating. And things like negging. So, you know, a lot of people disguise this as banter. You know, there's a lot of people that are sarcastic and banterous and that's really funny and that can be like a good humor. And it's quite a British humor, especially among like rugby lads and things like that, who rib each other

all the time. But when they bring that into dating, then because you don't even necessarily notice that they're doing it, that they, because nagging isn't just outright necessarily going, you're ugly, you're fat, you're, you know, you're whatever. Negging is more like, God, I've only just noticed you've really got your dad's nose. But you know, you think things like that. It's more subtle. It's more subtle, yeah. It's things that they're not necessarily- And it's also easy to be like,

oh, don't be so sensitive, I'm just joking. Yeah, or they'll make a little, you know, it's not even necessarily a joke. It'll be something like, are you sure you should have that dessert? You know, it's not even necessarily a joke. It'll be something like, are you sure you should have that dessert? You know, which, yeah, which makes you think like, oh my God, why shouldn't I have the dessert? And then, no, I'm not saying anything at all.

And if you say that's just made me feel like, like you're saying I'm fat. Oh God, oh my God, it was a joke. I'm just talking, you know, it's all that kind of stuff that then can leave you feeling like, oh, like, should I, am I being oversensitive about this? Yeah, you're questioning yourself. Yeah. Oh, God, that's the worst. I hate that. The other, that kind of, I don't know whether it's the final thing, but I also wanted to ask you, because I've never spoken to anyone about this before, but jealousy in relationship, because it's a very common thing that comes up but a tricky thing to navigate like

what are your thoughts on jealousy? When is it problematic? When is it something that actually it's like a natural human emotion? Yeah so it's really difficult to identify where that line is because obviously jealousy is a huge red flag in terms of abuse but but as you say, it's also really normal human emotion. And it depends what we do with it as to whether it becomes abusive or not. It is okay to feel jealousy. And in fact, actually it's healthy to feel some amount of jealousy, um, for your partner in a relationship. It keeps you on your toes.

It helps you to know throughout that relationship that actually, oh, maybe other people would want this person. And I do have to show up for them in this relationship because they could go at any time. And, you know, I mean, don't plague yourself with that. But knowing that and knowing that you need to keep dating your partner and loving them and being intimate with them because that healthy amount of jealousy has shown you that, like, this is a decent person who...

It's something I value. Yeah. But if that jealousy veers over into control, that is when it is problematic. It's healthy for your partner to say to you, well, I feel a bit jealous when you're talking to that guy. And that's it. If your partner then says, I'm sorry, you can't chat to that man from your work anymore, but he can no longer text you outside of work hours, then that's a problem. So if the jealousy turns into them trying to stop you doing certain things, wearing certain things, hanging around with certain people, then obviously then we're in problematic territory. Of course there's always nuance.

It would not be problematic for me to say to a guy, yeah, I don't really like you hanging around with this woman that you met off Tinder and you slept with her two months ago. I'm all right with laying a boundary down on that, but actually it's not okay for me to tell you that you can't speak to your ex who you've been best friends with for 10 years now.

So I guess it's like you have to kind of take it case by case with what's each individual situation, but also kind of have the tools for having those conversations, because I feel like it's something that can be more present at the beginning when there's a bit more uncertainty, perhaps a bit more insecurity that can be addressed but knowing when you can like set down the law and create your own boundaries versus like you say kind of going into a territory where you're making yourself a little bit smaller or denying certain things because you don't want it to flare up. Yes. And you know what I actually find really helpful, and I probably shouldn't be recommending this because it's terrible for the environment, I believe, although I'm not entirely sure. But chat GPT is really, really helpful for working out ways to say these things. It's been incredibly helpful for

me. So I actually hate to admit that I've used it for some reason. It's remarkably like, can't, I mean, everyone always says that it's going to destroy humanity. I'm like, no, I'm the crazed one. It's always like giving me quite rational kind of, maybe don't do that. Maybe don't say that. How about you say this instead? A hundred percent. Like if you are feeling like I am so jealous of this situation and I really need to tell my partner that they can no longer talk to this woman at the gym ever again because it's triggering my jealousy, put that into chat GPT because otherwise you

might go to your partner and say, you can't talk to that blonde woman at the gym. Well, actually, chat GPT will not have you saying that. It will have you saying something like, hey, I really value our time together, but when perhaps is there a way that we could do it? I can't even think of what chat GPT was saying because they're so much more sophisticated. But yeah, like check with chat GPT, is this jealousy valid? Can I, how can I lay down boundaries around this without being controlling or? Especially if something triggers us, because we're not really then in our rational thinking minds of like, are we going to approach it from a calm perspective?

Are we going to get the right outcome? It's usually going to be more explosive and heightened and set off the other person. Mm-hmm. So yeah, I think that's great advice. Yeah. It's probably not great advice. I think it is. I do it. So it's validated that I do it. So thank you.

You're so tech. I do it, so it's validated that I do it. So thank you. But Lana, thank you so much for coming on the show. I absolutely loved it. Thank you. I love this conversation. It took so many twists and turns that I wasn't expecting. But yeah. It's been really lovely. Just sat on your sofa as well.

Like I feel like I've just been chatting to my mate for an hour. I know. It's been fantastic, so thank you. I know. It's been fantastic. So thank you. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. I hope that you found it useful. And if you did find it useful, I would love it if you shared it with a friend who might enjoy Saturn Returns and Letters to Venus. This is the way that the podcast has grown just through word of mouth and it's how we build our community. So thank you so much for listening. As always remember,

you are not alone. Goodbye.