Saturn Returns with Caggie - Modern Dating and How to Find the Right Partner with Paul Brunson

Episode Date: December 2, 2024

Caggie is joined by Paul Brunson, an international matchmaker and relationship guru, to explore his new book, Find Love, and uncover strategies for finding the perfect match in today’s dating landscape. During their conversation, Paul Brunson shares his unique journey of transitioning from the world of investment banking to becoming a leading authority in the field of relationships and personal connections. Together, Caggie and Paul explore: 🪐 The importance of choosing a strong partner and how it can significantly impact one's well-being, longevity, and satisfaction in life 🪐 The historical context of partner selection, from pragmatic reasons to the rise of romantic needs in the post-1960s era, driven by women's increased freedom and choice 🪐 The role of self-esteem in relationships and how it affects one's ability to accept different types of partners and avoid unhealthy dynamics 🪐 The concept of trauma bonds and the influence of individuals with negative personality traits, such as the "dark tetrad" 🪐 Paul Brunson's strategy of the "premium effect," where being different in a dating context can lead to increased interest and validation Tune in for a thought-provoking and inspiring conversation about navigating the complexities of modern love and discovering the right partner for you. — As we move into 2025, it’s time to refresh your dating intentions and embrace authenticity in your romantic relationships so you can align your goals with your truest self and build connections that matter on Hinge.  A heartfelt thank you to Hinge for partnering on this episode and helping us champion the values of vulnerability and authenticity in modern dating. #hingepartner

Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. Today I am very excited because I am sitting down with renowned relationship expert, matchmaker and entrepreneur Paul Brunson. Paul is widely recognized for his work in helping individuals build meaningful connections both romantically and professionally. He is an established TV personality, you guys may have seen him on Celebs Go Dating or Married at First Sight. He is an author and speaker and he is just super smart and a wonderful human being.

And I've got to say, listening back to this episode, there's just so much in it, and it's also a lot of fun to listen to. I had so much fun talking with him. He's just a gem of a human being. And as many of you know, this particular topic around love and relationships is one that I just adore. I've always loved discussing this on the podcast. And this one did not disappoint. Paul is so knowledgeable, so considerate about what he shares. And it makes you realize that whilst relationships are so crucial in our lives,

and we get into it in this episode, that how they are actually perhaps the most important decision you will make in your life is choosing the right romantic partner, but also they are very complicated. We are living in a time where things are changing very, very quickly, and we're trying to adapt and keep up. And what I kind of took away from this episode was to allow yourself to have grace and compassion because we are complicated people, and going into relationship with another complicated person is obviously going to be challenging.

And we're living in a world which is changing very dramatically. But in this episode, I feel like there are many, many, many, many takeaways that you will find incredibly useful. So definitely take your time whilst listening. Perhaps sit down with a journal and a pen so you can make some notes because he's giving all the wisdom. So I hope you enjoy it as much as I did and thank you for listening. Paul, welcome to the show. Thank you very much for having me.

How are you doing today? I am so chill. I've never been this chill. I think I've never been this chill on a podcast before. Like, even I'm talking deeper. It's like... It's good. It's comfortable. It feels good. It smells good. Everything is good. I'm chill.

We have the chairs that are slightly at an angle, so you're like slowly sinking down. Oh, yeah. But you've got quite a chill energy anyway, I feel. Oh my God. Well, I need this. It just suits it. Yes, it does. Actually, the whole vibe here in this place, this is me. This is me. It feels very warm, very chill.

There's a lot of love going on in here, I could see. There's a lot of love. And I'm so excited to talk to you today about love, because that is your thing. Yes. So how did you get into that to kind of take our audience back to the beginning? Where did that world start for you?

Obviously it's an important thing for everyone. Yes. Yeah, I think love is one of those things where we all have experience with it. We all know people who have experience with it. Uh, we all have opinions, uh, around it. But for me, the professionalism, or should I say the career around it, really started when I...

So, in my last, in my former career, I was an investment banker. Wow. Not the obvious trajectory shift. But I absolutely loved it. That's what you did in another life. Oh, my God. It's like the opposite of love. It's greed. Like, that's all it is, is greed.

And so I did investment banking, and I worked for a very wealthy family, and I was doing all kinds of cool stuff for them, and I was meeting all kinds of cool people, but I had no control over my life. Like, I had no autonomy, no control over my time. I wasn't happy. I was super stressed. My wife was super stressed.

Like, everything was just ugly, right? And I had a nonprofit organization at the time. And this was something that I've always done. I've always given back. And in this nonprofit, we provided test preparation services, right? So we were providing, we were helping kids with like English and math

to take a test in the US called the SAT. And we had a hundred kids in this one particular program. They were mostly lower income kids. So, and I think the average household income was 15,000 US. That's, that's the, you know, where they were. It was, it was one of those where they had very little resources at home. So this was a major thing for them to be able to participate in this program. And one of the questions to allow the kids into the program was how many parents

live in your household, right? And we had 100 kids, not one had both parents living in the household, not one. Well, you'd think, okay, I get it. Divorce is on the rise, separation's on the household. Not one. You think, okay, I get it. You know, divorce is on the rise, separation's on the rise. People have different living setups. So maybe you have, you know, parents living together,

but are not married. I get it. But not one had two parents living in their household. And that really blew me away. And it really led me down this path of trying to figure out, well, why was that? And what impact that made on that particular child and their test scores and what college they went to and what career they took on and then how long they would live

and how satisfied they'd be with their life. Like, I went down this rabbit hole that never stopped. You know, it was like 15 years ago, I went down this rabbit hole and never stopped. You know, it was like 15 years ago, I went down this rabbit hole and I'm still going down it. And it led me on the path of going back to school for social psychology. So I have a business degree, went to business school. So when did you go to business school?

So I went to undergrad, went to Old Dominion University for undergrad in Virginia, United States. I then left, well, you know, graduated. I then went into investment banking. I then went and everyone, what they do is they do two years of investment banking. Then you go to business school. So then I went to business school,

went to Georgetown University, very proud of that, Hoya Saxa all the way. And then, and I argue with Georgetown University, very proud of that, Hoya Saxa, all the way. And then, and I argue with Georgetown too, is cause everyone says that Harvard is the best business school in the world. Have you heard that? Yeah. Yeah, they're not. Georgetown is the best business school in the world.

So it was like, we all argue about it, but then I went to business school, then I went back into investment banking, but I worked for a family called the UGELs, and they own the largest educational holding in the Middle East and in Europe. And then from there, started the nonprofit. But that's what led me down the path.

Interesting. So it was never really something that you intended to do. It was just sort of you saw something in what you were learning about in the nonprofit and then kind of followed that down the rabbit hole and here we are. Exactly. I'm super curious. Very curious. I love curiosity as a quality in someone though.

But what were some of the findings that really blew your mind and that led you to kind of uncover this work more deeply? You know, I love that question. So I am a, and I already know you're a big reader, right? And one of the most profound books I've read, but also kind of watched the debate around was Sheryl Sandberg's Lean In.

Right? And I think that was 2014, roughly, when she did that. And when she wrote that book, she wrote in the book something that became a controversial statement at the time. And that was, the most important career decision you could make. And she was talking to women, right? The most important career decision you could make. And she was talking to women, right? The most important career decision you could make

is who you choose as a partner. And when she wrote that, people were like, what are you talking about? You know, what? And there was a massive debate back and forth. And I found the debate to be fascinating. What was the debate? What were the kind of polarizing arguments? If I were to go to extreme, one extreme said, regardless of who you choose as a partner, you set your own destiny, you set your own path. You are a solo enterprise, essentially, right?

There was that. And then there was the other side that completely confirmed what she said. And a matter of fact, it was then someone else who doubled down on her thought, right? This other side. And that was Warren Buffett, right? So because I came from the business world,

Warren Buffett was a god. He still is a god, right? And he, uh, Brunsher Hathaway... He agreed with her sentiment. Not only did he agree, but he said, the most important decision of your life, not just career, just the most important decision of your life, is who you choose as a partner.

And that was something, he said that in 2017. Uh, but he started saying that a little bit earlier, but that, these are the types of statements and the debates around the statements that led me down this path of discovery. And where do you land on that spectrum of belief? I go even further than Warren Buffett and Gerald Sandberg now. I, but I'll say this is, I believe that one of the most important decisions

of our lives is who we choose as a partner. Whether that's a partner that's in our life is who we choose as a partner. Whether that's a partner that's in our life for two years, whether that's a partner that's in our life for 20 years, whether that's a partner we choose to sleep with tonight, whether that's a partner that we choose to marry, whether that's a partner that we choose to have a casual relationship with,

regardless of the formation of the union, if you will, that is one of the most important decisions of our life. And the reason why is because that decision will suggest multiple things, right? On a good side, that decision, if you choose a strong partner in any one of those scenarios, you choose a healthy partner in any one of those scenarios, what it does is it means that you do live longer.

It means that you are more satisfied. It means that, just your wellbeing, like you're satisfied. It means that you're healthier. It means that you make your wellbeing, like you're satisfied. It means that you're healthier. It means that you make more money, right? Any type of positive results you can think of, it comes off the backend of choosing a strong partner. Now, when I say strong partner too, doesn't even have to be a romantic partner.

Could be your bestie. I'm just simply saying having someone in your life who is a strong partner, and I underscore strong. But the opposite is true. You choose a weak partner, everything that you don't want in life is coming to you. What does that mean? A shorter life. It means that you don't want in life is coming to you. What does that mean? A shorter life.

It means that you're unhealthy. It means that you're gonna be disgruntled most of the time. It means that, and not to go morbid, but it means that you could die, right? Define weak. Well, that's the book, right? It's like, in short, over time, we have, just from a romantic standpoint,

over time, we have selected partners for different reasons. So if you go back 300,000 years ago, we were selecting a partner because we wanted to be able to live next week. We're going into the sort of hierarchy of needs sort of stuff right now. Yeah. Yeah. It's close to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but more so from a... So there's a gentleman, Eli Finkel, who's one of my favorite researchers out of New York.

And what he's done is he said, look, if you look over time, there's been distinct periods of time, you know, as us as homo sapiens, right? So you have this first period of time, which goes from hunter gatherer all the way up into basically like the industrial age. So it's a massive gap of time. And he calls that the pragmatic phase. And that was when we were choosing partners for very pragmatic reasons. Like economic stability and... Absolutely. Or because we want to survive next week, right? But these were the reasons.

And to Maslow's hierarchy of needs that you're talking about, you could really parallel it because you could say, okay, well, those are the bottom level needs from Maslow's pyramid. But then you go into post-industrial age. And in that post-industrial age, we begin to select partners for companionship, because the family begins to change. We begin to move into nuclear families. We're moving away from our family into new towns. And it doesn't mean that we're choosing a partner

to meet all of our needs, intellectually, sexually, you know, economically, no. But it does mean that we're at least looking to have someone we get along with, right? Whereas in the previous phase, we didn't need to even get along with the person. Yeah, so that's a significant shift in itself. Major, major shift. And that sort of paved the way for the next stage.

Absolutely, which is really the beginning of this romantic stage. And this goes into effect, like, circa 19... Or this is before 1960s. So you have this time where we move from companionship to, you know, romantically, it would be great to get more of our needs with this person. So as you're going up that Maslow, the pyramid,

you're now into this belonging, you know, phase, right? You know? And so you move there. But then the distinct change happens post-1960s, or mid-1960s. And really, what's happening in Western world is you begin to see women have at least some say. Like, even now, you think about it, it's crazy to think that...

How little say they had. How little say that women have, and I'm talking about in the Western world, right? And this is not that long ago. This is not that long ago. So it's the, like, mid-1960s where women begin to get just a little bit of say. Like, just a little bit. Like, you know what?

You know, and you think, God, this is so crazy that we live in this world, but that's what happened. And when women began to get those freedoms, and we're talking about those freedoms and the say came from things like the dishwasher. Things like contraception. You know, these created the space, right?

And what you begin to see when we got a little bit of say, is that the choice in a partner was elevated now. Now it was not just pragmatic. Now it was not just economic. Now it was not just economic. Now it was not just sexual. Now it moved to a phase where we wanted to have everything from our partner. Because if we have more choice,

we wanna have someone who can be all things to us. And Esther Perel says it perfectly as she talks about how, you know, we used to live in these village-type communities where we would get various forms of stimulation from different people. Intellectual could be from your best friend. You'd have... You were having sex with...

The men were, the high status men were having sex with three different women, right, in the area. Uh... Oh, I'm sorry? Were the women having sex with multiple men? Rarely. Rarely. You know, I've studied, uh, especially polyamory, um, but rarely over time were women having sex

with other men unless they were in a sex worker capacity. But even when you fa... If you look at how poly... You know, polyamory has come about. You have polyandry, and then you have polygyny, right? And the polygyny is where a man has multiple wives, and polyandry is where you have the woman, right? Wait, wait, hold on. I can't... I literally have not heard of either of those two things.

I'm quite interested in this. Oh, well, you on. I can't, I literally have not heard of either of those two things, so I'm quite interested in this. Oh, well, you know what's crazy is, this is crazy. I think I might be even mixing up the two, but with the polyandria, I'll just keep going with that, is it's in 2%, I think it's in 2% or 1.5%, no, no, no, I'm sorry, It's in 0.0% of the world. So it's in small places like the Himalayans. That the women have multiple...

-...husbands. Yes. Yes. -...husbands. I'm into... Okay, there's so many things here that I want to touch on. Firstly, back to the hierarchy of needs, that the final stage of that is self-actualization, right? Right. So the final... The top of the hierarchy of needs is self-actualization, right? Right. So the final, the top of the hierarchy of needs is self-actualization.

This is what most people today are after. From their partnerships? Well, no, from themselves. You know, most of us are after being, you know, we have... And actually, you know, it's us are after being, you know, we have, we, and actually, you know, it's a state of privilege, but many people have a home. Yeah. Many people are able to eat every day.

Many people have work and things that they're passionate about and people that they know that they're connected to. So friends, et cetera. But what that person typically is after today is self-actualization, which is the highest level of being according to many people, Aristotle all the way through, to Maslow and others. So that's what we're after.

Now the trick is how do you get there? How do you get there? And can you get there by yourself? Well, what my research has told me is you can't. We as social creatures, it is required for us to have other people in our lives. And there's the best research around that, I think is Dr. Stephen Porges,

who's the godfather of polyvagal theory. And he has so many, he's well... What's polyvagal theory? So polyvagal theory is essentially a theory. It's where fight or flight comes from. Okay. That's the theory. And I think what's important to underscore about fight or flight is that a lot of people

don't realize is it's an autonomic nerve. So it is your body reacting without you necessarily dictating what's happening. So it's your body reacting. Okay. Yeah. And you're... I just wanted to get into that, because obviously that is such a key component, the dynamic of a romantic partnership.

Any kind of partnership, but let's just home in on that. Okay. Because, and you speak about it a lot in the book, or you write about it a lot about, you know, attachment theory and all of these things that are in our programming. But when it comes to having a sort of nervous system response, like we're just touching on now,

when that happens in a romantic partnership, do you think we have the tools and the language and the ability to manage that and kind of go deeper into the partnership? Or do you think at the moment people are like kind of jolting out of it because they're like, I'm having this, this person's triggering me? Do you know what I mean? Because you also speak about how much more language and awareness there is.

And I think social media has helped tremendously with that. But then is it like, well, everyone's just using it without really knowing where it's fully coming from. Yeah, it's definitely the latter in terms of what you're saying is that we are, most of us are beginning to become aware because these words and phrases are circulating and we have so many good outlets now, you know, podcasts and television shows.

And I do think television shows could be helpful on this where you can learn different concepts, but most, most, the vast majority of people, one, they're not even choosing their partner, they're being selected. And the vast, and the vast- Is that gender specific? It is, it is, it is...

It is highly gender specific. Yeah. I believe that most heterosexual women are still, because it's been that way, you know... Yeah. ...for, since the beginning of time, are predominantly being chosen. Or waiting to be chosen or feel like that they are, I sort of like the analogy of being on the shelf,

waiting to come to life by a man that chooses them. But it's such an outdated programming to the world that we live in today. But for all the reasons you just said, it does also make sense. But how can we kind of catch up? By, I think, the beginning is being aware of how important the decision is.

Because I think, I truly believe if more people, all people, were aware of how important your partner is and what role they play in your life, there would be more consciousness around the decision. And that consciousness would create more criteria around the decision. You're sort of non-negotiables and... The whole thing. You would be doing some serious diligence.

Like, when I was doing my investment banking, before a company was bought, we would do what we call due diligence. We'd go talk to all the employees. I would... I mean, this is terrible, but I can say this now because it's been so long, is I would even sneak and go into the rubbish bin, right? That's how British I am, I into the rubbish bin, right?

That's how British I am, I'm saying rubbish bin, not even trash bin. I would go sneak into the bin and pull out. And I would look at like reports and things that were thrown away because you'd want to catch to see what they're trying to hide. There would be another level of diligence that we would provide on a company

before we would advise another company to buy or partner with that company. We need to be doing that times a thousand for ourselves. I get that, but then also, does that not encourage a sort of hypervigilance that could be damaging to a relationship? Because obviously, everyone comes with the past, everyone might have made mistakes.

And if we are judging people for their past, is that progressive to a content and healthy future with them? Well, I would never say to judge someone based on their past, right? Never do that. But should you use specific criteria? Absolutely. Would you buy a car with no criteria? Would you But should you use specific criteria? Absolutely.

Would you buy a car with no criteria? Would you buy a flat with no criteria? Would you enter a job with no criteria? I mean, even you buying trousers, there's criteria for that, you know what I mean? And so, it is incredibly important to use criteria. Because that decision or lack of decision, because remember if you're being chosen,

that's still a decision being made, it's just being made on your behalf. If you were, that is, does not only impact you, it impacts your family, it impacts your friends, it impacts unborn children, It impacts your family. It impacts your friends. It impacts... unborn children. And not only then your children or your unborn children, it then impacts their children, right?

Intergenerational trauma. Like, these are big decisions. These are some of the most important decisions we have. I completely agree. I want to bring it back a second because you mentioned about, you know, the rise of female empowerment and liberation and how that's played into women having more of a voice. But then, of course, we've still got a way to go

because primarily women feel like they need to be chosen. The majority of my audience for this podcast is like, women in their late 20s, early 30s. So it's at that point where I feel society puts so much pressure on us to find the right partner. And I think at the moment, people feel this, you know, their careers might be going in a really good direction, but they still feel less than if they don't have that person. And then I think that that can make people perhaps feel like they have to make a decision, any decision. And the language that I hear around a lot is, you know, the pool's really small.

I remember speaking with a guy friend who was in his late 30s, and he said, oh, I know so many incredible women in their 30s, but the pool's really small for them. And I was like, is that true? Or is that again, just a programming? And how do we kind of navigate this space where so much of this stuff we know and we understand, but we wanna have the options,

and we wanna make those decisions based on the right reasons and the non-negotiables, so to speak. Yeah. I love that you used the phrase, is that just the programming? This is a topic that I haven't had the ability yet to go deep on. And I love this particular topic because, hell yes, is it being programmed?

I mean, think about this, is that right now in many countries, right? Japan, China, Singapore, South Korea, North Korea, you have government organizations that are now, essentially what they are doing is they are incentivizing by any way, not just couples to have children because their birth rates have now fallen drastically, right?

But they are incentivizing for marriage. There are literally government run organizations and their focus is marriage. Tokyo two weeks ago, the city government of Tokyo just rolled out a matchmaking app for the first time. They just rolled out a matchmaking app. And what they're saying is that,

we're the, this is a great matchmaking app because we have all of your, we can prove it's you. We have your government name, you know what I mean? We have all this information. Now, why are they doing that? And what's the point? The point is that for a government, having monogamous nuclear families

is the most stable environment for them. Economically? Economically, it's the most stable. It's the, you're also going to have less crime. You're going to have less trouble. It's much easier for a government to manage us if we are in these nice, neat, monogamous nuclear, nuclear, I'll call them, yeah, nuclear families. I'm going to call it nuclear enterprises, but nuclear

families. Much easier. Much easier. And define a nuclear family for those that aren't familiar with the term. Sure, absolutely. So, you know what's interesting is, this term around nuclear families,

do you know where it really started to originate? At what time? Yeah, this is a good trivia. At what time and where? I'm gonna guess. I could be totally wrong, but I'm gonna guess... the 70s? Okay,'m gonna guess the 70s. Okay, so you say the 1970s? In America, or was it the 20s?

I don't know. Okay, no, no, this is fair. So it's a little bit- 50s. It's a little bit. Just guess every decade. Okay, 40s, 30s. Like, clearly I got this too wrong.

So it's a little bit earlier than that. It was roughly 1000 AD, roughly. What? And you know where? Where? Right here. And you know how? I mean, this is super nerdy stuff, but this is-

I love it. Yeah, so this is research from Joseph Henrich, who is by far the OG when it comes to anthropology. So all of his research is dug up, it's circa 1000. It's right here. It's right here. UK, Europe-ish. Now, why is the question, right? How? How did nuclear families start here?

Right? Well, 1,000 A.D. here were what? Everyone lived in clans. Massive clans. And at the head of the clan was who? It was some guy. It was the older guy, the great grandfather, the grandfather. And you had maybe 50, 100 people in this clan, and you would marry your second cousin or your first cousin.

That way you could retain all the land, you could retain all of the power. When there was an issue, you settled it within the clan. Everything was done within the clan. But right around 1000, you had a split between the church. Eastern church, Western church. Western church here was focused in this European area. And they created something called

the Marriage and Family Plan. Now, when the research has been done around this, there's a debate as to how focused they were around what ultimately happened. But the Marriage Family Plan did several things. The Marriage Family Plan started to say, okay, no more marrying cousins. You know, you have the head of the house. Essentially, what they were trying to do

is they were trying to replace the head of the clan with God. Okay. That was the idea. And so there are many things that were instituted. So no marrying cousins is part of that, right? Not recognizing, quote-unquote, bastard children, was major in that. And all of these... Which is a child out of marriage, out of wedlock,

but why was that? Because what they were trying to do was to break down the Klan. And by instituting these policies, they broke down the Klan. And by instituting these policies, they broke down the Klan. And... So it's less powerful. It's less powerful. And think about this.

If you can't marry your cousin, and you live in a Klan of cousins, what does that mean? You gotta get out the Klan. Right. You gotta go down the road. 50 miles down the road and go find yourself somebody. And that was the beginning of townships. And that was the beginning of the nuclear family.

Wow. This is where it started, right here. And the nuclear family is... Actually, you say it in your own words. Fair enough. So, a nuclear family is considered to be, and this is circle 1000, right? It's considered to be a two-parent household, right? And in the two-parent household,

there are offspring in the two-parent household. And it is typically quantified as being monogamous, which is important when it comes to, from a government standpoint, it's important because when there is monogamy, there is less crime. Right? Why? I mean, there's lots of reasons behind it.

But think of it this way. This is the best way to think of it, is when you have a committed relationship, right? and you have monogamy in that relationship, then it means that there's no, you know, there's no relationships that are happening outside. Think of it if you have a situation where there's no monogamy and there's relationships outside,

what then happens to that particular environment? Well, there's all types of stress related with that. You have all types of infighting and out fighting as a result of that. You have all types of, there's, I guess it's all a result of stress, but there's undue stress that's placed on not only the parties who are participating, but those who are outside of it, right? It causes havoc. So, governments love for there to be monogamy.

Right, they love it. It's good. It's good for them. But it sounds like it works for us for all those reasons you've just described, or what is your take on monogamy? You must get asked that all the time. Yes, yes. You know, I mean, just because I'm super nerdy, when you look at it, you're absolutely right. It's good for us, right? Now, if you look at us as a society,

on average, it's good for us. It's really good for us. And a matter of fact, it's good for us individually. But at the same time, I have a friend who is in a open relationship. And I would say she and her husband are two of like the safest people I've ever met. Like in terms of, you know,

if you think of countering the argument of, oh, monogamy means that we're all safe and we're all healthy, but they're the two of the safest people, you know, that I know. So I think it requires a level of maturity that most people will never... I think it requires a level of maturity... that most people will never, never reach.

Do you think that a lot of people... Because it's obviously, I don't want to say fashionable, but I feel like today, everyone's exploring different types of relationship. And whilst I'm all for that and perhaps it's progressive, I don't know whether they're actually enjoying it. And all the data tells us is that this is very important, I think, for women.

Mm-hmm. The satisfaction rates for men in open relationships versus in monogamous relationships are the same. Oh, really? On average, they're the same. But for women? But for women, drastically lower. Yeah, because I presume they get into it being like,

yeah, I'm so for this, this is fine. And they never were for it. And that's not what they want. And I guess what you're getting at is being honest and upfront about what you actually want from a partnership and not just saying it to be chosen and then hoping you'll change their mind and then being desperately unhappy. You said it better than me.

That's what I'm saying. We need to be making these choices. We need to be making these choices. Can I say how you just described it is exactly how I would presume 80% of open relationships begin for women. how I would presume 80% of open relationships begin for women. It is being brought to them by their partner. You don't wanna lose their partner.

They have not erected the boundary to say, no, this is unacceptable. And so therefore they allow it to happen. They engage in it, they become dissatisfied. And then as it prolongs, they become increasingly dissatisfied. Mm. So I saw something the other day that essentially said that for women, women can get into a situationship, let's say, and if they are sexual with that person, that there is a higher probability

that they will fall into a romantic sort of love or something, that they'll develop feelings. But for a man, if they get in something with a partner and it's sexual, but they have no romantic feelings for that person and they don't intend to be in a relationship with them, that they won't start developing those feelings simply by the fact that they a relationship with them, that they won't start developing those feelings simply by the fact that they're sleeping with them.

And in essence, it's, you know, women think that if they are that way and they are sexual with someone, that that person might then catch feelings for them. But it's saying that men don't. What is your take on that? Is that complete rubbish? I mean, I mean... I can't. What is your take on that? Is that complete rubbish? I mean, well, I mean... I can't remember. It was probably on Instagram. But I was like, I kind of understand.

Yeah, but I think the larger point of what I'm hearing you say is, it is, it takes a high level of communication to be involved in any type of open relationship. And most of us don't have that level of communication with our one partner. You know, most of us are not even satisfied with our one partner. To go back to Eli Finkel,

some research he did about two years ago, stated that out of most marriages today, 80% are less satisfied than they were, than they have been in the history of marriage. 80% are less satisfied. 20% are more satisfied than ever before. But think about that, if 80% are less satisfied,

that means that a lot of people are in a situation where they're not satisfied. They're in a situation where there's major issues in the relationship. So opening it up to a third person or a fourth or a fifth person, it just... It's not gonna help. It's not gonna help. It's not gonna help, yeah.

But also, you know, for people that are... I'm talking about, you know, at the early stages where they've met someone, they like them, they get into a sort of situationship thing. But it would seem that the more relaxed, for lack of a better term, the agreement is between them, however casual it might be, there's then almost zero communication as a result of how casual it is,

where it seems like you're saying it should be the opposite. Yes. And that's why everyone's going really wrong. Because it's like, I feel horrible about myself, but I can't say anything because this is a casual thing. Oh, my God. I wish I could pass a collection plate to you. I mean, amen. Amen to that. Because what I think, and I think social media

has done a lot of this lately, the trend is no expectations. You shouldn't have any expectations. Just go in, no expectations. Like, what? There's nothing else you do in your life that's like that. Do you ever go to the gym and say, I've got no expectations at the gym? I'm just sitting here and hope.

Just not really hope for anything, actually. Yeah, I'm just here. No, there's nothing in our life that is important to us that we put zero expectation around. So why should our relationships be any different? 100%. What, there was something that I just wanted to, that reminded me of.

In terms of the social media, you know, we've said that it actually can contribute to a lot more awareness about things, but on the flip side of that, I think there's a lot that gets, these sort of one-liner things that get passed around that are probably actually quite damaging. Do you have any, one's coming to mind, which is... Oh yeah, if it's not a hell yes, it's a no.

I'm like, what do we say, let's unpack that one. And that's generally women, I hear it from women saying it to other women about like dating. If it's not a hell yes, it's a no. And if you wanted to, he would. Let's go on those two. Yeah. I believe that this is where social is a massive detriment.

Because what is happening, there's a group of psychologists that I'm really cool with. And I'm constantly, we're constantly going back and forth. And the consensus among this entire group is that what a lot of social media does is you have a lot of people who may have good intention, are not researched, are in pain, and they post. And what they're doing is they're validating...

their feeling. ...their feeling of pain. And that resonates with so many people. And the algorithms are in their favor, because once it resonates with 10, it'll resonate with 10 more, and 10 more, and 10 more, because 10 more are liking it, 10 more are engaging it. And it's also, it's bite-sized, it's extreme,

it's everything the algorithm wants. The algorithm loves it, eats it up, right? And then we walk away believing, being validated in our wrong and believing this is what we should do. And this is the issue. I think this is the issue with short form content, which is why I'm such a big fan of podcasts

where you can unpack it or books where you can unpack it. But short form content is a disaster for relationship advice. sound bites if people say, if it's not a yes, if it's not a hell yes, it's a no. Which is essentially saying, you know, I don't think it leaves much room for exploration. No, it leaves no room for gray. Most of life is gray.

It's not black or white, it's gray. You know, it is the in-between. And it's how we navigate the in-between is what makes for a success or not. And then also, to your point, if it doesn't allow for exploration, yeah, it doesn't allow for any lessons. One of the most in the book, I categorize what I call these five fundamentals of choosing

the right partner. One of which is you need someone who's open-minded. It's imperative. You cannot be in a successful relationship. When I say successful, one that delivers you a high level of satisfaction to help you get to self-actualization, unless you have a partner who's open-minded. Well, if you have someone who's only, hell yeah, yes, or hell yeah, no, they're not open-minded. You cannot succeed like that. On that, there's a popularity at the moment.

And the extreme version of it is the sort of Andrew Tate's of the world. Do you know who Andrew Tate is? Oh, yeah. So he's like... I look at him, I cannot believe that anyone is interested in what he has to say, but people clearly are. And I wonder whether that's a response to a lot of the things that we're discussing today, of women having more choice, of women having more of a voice, and being able to be more selective with their partnerships,

and the whole roles of women and men becoming a little... bit blurred over the last couple of years. And then you see a rise in someone like him, why do you think that is? Because as much as he's an extreme version, I do notice elements of that peppered into other people's vocabulary that I'm like... The undertone feels quite misogynistic,

even though it seems progressive. There's... Right now, there is the beginning, and this is what is very dangerous, is it feels like there's the beginning of really a sex war. Yeah. That's how it feels. That is how it feels. And what is not happening is enough

of the open-mindedness, curiosity, and trying to actively listen instead of just hearing the other party. Now, I'll speak to the guys out here, right? To the fellas. I'll try to for a little bit. Is that one thing that I believe is not appreciated enough is that even though we live in a patriarchal society, and I repeat, we live in a patriarchal society,

at the same time, there is a significant number of men who are being marginalized. Totally. Significant. If you look at, read Richard Reeves' book of Boys and Men, it paints the dire picture of this. And one thing to consider, just if we nerd out a little bit, and we think about over time is you think,

why does it feel different today? And we didn't hear about these, the battle of the sexes a hundred years ago, or 500 years ago, what was so different? One thing that a lot of anthropologists are pointing the finger at right now, is the fact that we have, and we have a huge number of men with no aim, that are being completely sedated through smoking marijuana every day, watching porn every day.

And you think, okay, well, haven't there always been lots of dudes like that have been like this? Okay, well, haven't there always been lots of dudes like that have been like this? There have been, but you know what they were doing 50 years ago? Even, yeah, 50 years ago, 100 years ago, 500 years ago, they were fighting wars. And you think, does that make sense?

Well, you think about it, today, wars are predominantly fought with missiles and drones. Predominantly. The number of military, you think about this, the number of active military people in... It's reduced. The number of wars that we have, it's terrible. Like, terrible. But it's actually reduced than what it was a thousand years ago.

And in short, what you have is you have this group of guys that were formerly the militia, that formerly were part of these nations that were taking over nations, right? Who are sitting at home, playing Xbox, smoking marijuana, flipping between Andrew Tate and porn. Oh, my God. This is...

This is a recipe for disaster. But that makes sense. This is what's happening. Because also when I look at the stuff that he teaches, it is all quite, you know, it's like they're in some kind of weird army. I'm like, what are you guys doing? It is very... They're in Romania, you know, it's like they're in some kind of weird army. I'm like, what are you guys doing? It is very, they're in Romania, you know, they're, they're, they're boxing, they're fighting. There are, but, but, but I, but I guess where I'm going with this is that, there's, there's, there's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of guys in pain.

You know, you look at the suicide rates, sky high. You know, the suicide rates right now are roughly 80% of all suicides are coming from men. Under a certain age usually, right? Under 30 or something. Yeah, but across the board. Across the board. I was just on a call with the Jamaican High Council here in the UK. The suicide rate for men in Jamaica is 90%.

So you have these disastrous rates. You think, well, why? What's happening? And you begin to unpack, and ultimately, what is happening to a lot of men is a lot of men feel like they're aimless, they have no purpose, et cetera, right? So this is a major issue that needs to be dealt with. We need to accept it, we need to understand why it is,

and we need to deal with it. But then you have a whole nother contingency of men that I think often get written off in the dating landscape. These are not the assholes. These are just the super shy. Maybe I'm not as confident. I'm at home playing Dungeons and Dragons. Right?

To add context, who was playing that? I love it. Now you're laughing at Dungeons and Dragons. That's what you're doing now. No. To add the context, I was playing that. I see. Now you're laughing at Dungeons and Dragons. That's what you're doing now. No. To add the context, I was just saying how I was playing Dungeons and Dragons this weekend, you know, and I love Dungeons and Dragons, right? But you have a contingency of guys who are not going to perform

well on a dating app. Because guys... Yeah, because that's, I mean, from your work, I presume that that's how most people are meeting today online. Yeah. And so, you're essentially saying that there's a whole group of men that are getting sidelined because of that way of people dating. Yes. So, there is a concept that's often debated

called hypergamy. Have you heard about this? No. often debated called hypergamy. Have you heard about this? So this is when women choose to have a man of typically equal economic or education status or greater. So that's the floor, right? Or greater. And then when you look at a lot of the data

coming from dating apps, normally what you see is that, and this is studies around heterosexual women, are only swiping right or only opting in to talk to men who have greater economic, social or academic status. So, if you have a university degree, or I'm sorry, if you have a college degree,

you're all, you know... You're not interested in anyone that doesn't have... Because also, I... Is it fair to say that for men, they don't think like that? So, like, they, for a woman, doesn't matter about their level of education. And conversely, I guess, because women that. So like they, for a woman doesn't matter about their level of education. And conversely, I guess, because women are given more opportunities now,

we're having better careers that that's going up. And then there's this whole pocket of men that are just not getting a look in. Right. But then you flip to the other side, well then there are a lot of guys who are using, I think outdated criteria to decide if, you know, if someone is, if they're gonna swipe, you know,

right on someone. So it's, once again, it's both sides. Which is more physical, maybe. Heavy physical, like heavy physical. Which heavy physical, I think, is fine. But if it's 99.999% of your decision, it's not fine, right? So...

Whereas women are a bit more, I'd say, lenient. I mean, I'm just thinking of a conversation I had with my girlfriends last weekend, where I suddenly realized that we were all trying to convince one of our girlfriends to continue dating someone that she'd said she has no attraction to. And I just thought, you wouldn't get a group of men doing this.

To do that. No. But you know what's so wild about this? Is, do you know what I've, at least in my research, what I've found is the greatest differentiator between someone's willingness to accept different shapes and sizes and different looks, self-esteem. As in someone's own self-esteem.

Absolutely. When you have someone, and research backs this up, if you have someone who has incredibly low self-esteem, they are specifically looking for someone that meets traditional beauty standards, and they will not accept anyone else, you won't be able to convince them of anything else. Why? Because they thrive off of the validation of the validation

of the public, right? Of society. And so they need to have someone that society validates. But the higher self-esteem someone has, that's when they say, oh, wow, you know what? The birthmark that's on their chin stands out. No one has something like that. I love it. Like, they love what are considered to be exceptions

to traditional beauty standards. That's the biggest differentiator, is our self-esteem. That makes perfect sense. And I guess you could take that one step further in that a lot of the time, if you're making a decision in terms of going into the romantic landscape, and you don't have very good self-esteem and you become incredibly attached to someone, even though you don't particularly know them or anything,

which I'm sure you've encountered with people a lot, that it's sort of disproportionate to the situation. They've attached this desire or outcome on this person they don't really know. And usually if you unpack that, it's because they embody, whether it's a physical attribute or some status or something, that the person that's craving it lacks in themselves, or feels they lack in themselves.

That's me clapping. Yes. Yes. And then you realize it's nothing to do with them, it's to do with you. Yes. Yes. And then you realize it's nothing to do with them. It's to do with you. Yes. Yes. And you know what? Yes.

And then on top of that, something that we uncovered in the book is that, and this connects to self-esteem is what, okay, so given what you've just said, I believe you're going to answer this. Here's the quiz. Okay. This is a big question though, it's very hard. Okay. Very hard. No pressure.

What is the number one factor to determine if you will have high satisfaction in your relationship? So going into it, what's the number one factor to determine that? So going into it, what's the number one factor to determine that? Whether you'll have a good relationship with that person. Yeah, yeah. And good meaning you'll be highly satisfied.

Yes. I would say it's the quality of your life outside of that relationship. Okay, give me more, give me more. So the quality of your friendships... Yes. ...of what you're doing in your career, of your personal achievements and development,

so that the other person that comes in is just a plus on all of that, rather than the reason for your happiness. All right. I'm gonna give that one to you. Did I kind of get it? No, no, no, no, no. You 100% got it. You're talking about the quality of your life. So you're talking about your satisfaction with your life. And you actually broke it down.

You were using some of Carol Riff's six dimensions of psychological wellbeing in there. That was really smooth. I liked that. I did it on purpose. Yeah, yeah. It was in there. It was in there. I was like, wow, she's breaking down all the dimensions of psychological well-being. She's... So, it is the number one determinant

to whether or not you'll be satisfied in your relationship is that you have high satisfaction in your life. So, typically, satisfaction is... Is it... It correlates with self-esteem. So, if you have low self-esteem, and you have low satisfaction in your life, and you get... You start dating anybody, you start seeing someone,

everything that you just said is going to happen to them. They're going to attach. It'll be a trauma bond. That's all it is. It's one big trauma bond. Should we unpack what a trauma bond. That's all it is. It's one big trauma bond. Should we unpack what a trauma bond is? Because I love it. Yeah. I mean, in essence, so, all right, well, trauma is slightly different, but let's go in. In the book, there's a full chapter that I have on trauma.

By the way, trauma bonds are delicious at the time. But you can't build a life on them. You can try. You can try. You could try. You could try. But trauma is... Trauma was a topic that I was loosely familiar with, but didn't do a deep dive until the research for the book. And, you know, in essence, Gabor Matei,

I soaked up everything that this guy's ever said. I probably have listened to a hundred Gabor Matei lectures, podcasts, et cetera. And then, every time... He's the king of the drama. He... He's the king of drama. Yes, he's the king of it. And every time he would reference someone, I'd go on this breadcrumb trail to research it.

And in short, what Matei mentions is that 50 to 60% of adults have undiagnosed trauma. So we are walking around here with trauma, and we don't know it. Now, what is trauma, right? And it's interesting because I've heard him differ in his definition of trauma, and I've heard other people chime in

on different variations of definitions. So Gurbur Bhatai, the king of trauma, he says that trauma is anytime something bad happens to you, that is unexpected, it can result in trauma or when something good should happen to you and it doesn't happen, it could result in trauma. But then you have other people like like Dr. Stephen Porges, who take it a step further, and what they say is they say,

okay, as a result of those incidents, when something good doesn't happen, or something bad happens, and then psychologically, you change as a result of it. So a filter lands on your eyes, essentially, and you see the world differently. You feel the world differently as a result of this thing that happened.

And when you look at it that way, you think, my God, over half of adults are walking around, seeing, hearing, and feeling differently... Through the lens of their trauma. Through the lens of their trauma. Through the lens of their trauma. That makes... I mean, that gives you pause when you think about that. Because that means that's, you know,

there's four of us in the room, that's two of us. Who is it? Yeah. You know what I mean? That's two of us. But think about that. That's two of us. But think about that. That's two of us in this room that are seeing, feeling, interpreting certain things in their life differently than the other two.

Think about that. I mean, and so trauma is this massive thing. But unfortunately, because most of us have undiagnosed, therefore unhealed trauma, it exacerbates, and it exacerbates, and it eats us like a disease. Like making holes in us, essentially. And when we trauma bond, we find people who could fill those... It's like filling the missing puzzle pieces of each other,

and then when it's together, it's like... It feels good. It's like filling the missing puzzle pieces of each other. And then when it's together, it's like- It feels good. It feels good. But then obviously things fracture apart very quickly and you feel terrible. And you feel terrible. And you know who typically,

when we are in a state of undiagnosed trauma or low self-esteem or low satisfaction in life or going into attachment styles, or anxious, or were avoidant. When we're in these weaker positions, we tend to attract the worst of the worst. In the book, I go through what I call the dark tetrad. It's not my phrase, it's Dr. David Buss's phrase,

who's an evolutionary psychologist in the States. And he coined this phrase to talk about really the most despicable people in the world. And what's very dangerous about the dark tetrad who are, these are the narcissists. These are the psychopaths. These are the psychopaths. These are the Machiavellians, right? The people who use strategy to try to win you over,

dark strategy to try to win you over. And then the last but not least are the sadists, people who take pleasure in your pain. So you have people like this who make up now, depending on who you talk to, between 10 and 15% of the world. Yeah. These are the people who go after.

They prey on the vulnerable. They prey on the vulnerable. They prey on the vulnerable. Because they're more susceptible to it. More susceptible, easier to take it. They're not willing to put up the boundaries. They're not willing to put up the boundaries, they're not willing to put up the fight, right? Uh, and this is something that we have to be highly concerned with,

because once you enter a relationship, if you're already in a state of trauma, or low self-esteem, or any position of weakness, and then you engage with someone who is like that... Yeah, you're primed for the taking, yeah. You're primed for the taking. Yeah. You're primed for taking. You then regress even further.

Yeah. You're adding trauma on top of the trauma. You're, you feel like you have low self-esteem, your self-esteem will be even lowered. And it's harder for you now to get out, get back to a position of strength or healthiness. And so these are all the reasons why I say who we choose to be with is so important.

You know, I know a lot of people say, you know, I'm just having fun with him or her. I'm just having fun. Just a couple. We just go out a little bit. You know, we have sex occasionally. Like, they come over, we watch a film, whatever, like, it's nothing serious. That in itself is creating trauma for you.

That in itself is creating trauma for you. Because what you're beginning is, you're beginning to... tell yourself that the patterns that they're exhibiting are okay. Yeah. Yep. He comes over, we have dinner, we have sex, you're beginning to tell yourself that the patterns that they're exhibiting are okay. Yeah. Yep. He comes over, we have dinner, we have sex, he leaves.

He doesn't talk to me for a week. That's okay. That's the way it should be. Actually, I like it like that. I prefer it to be that way. You know, you begin telling yourself these stories. You're like, are you sure about that? Are you sure?

He's like, yeah, no, no, no, I like it. Cause I got my time with my girls, I can do this. Are you sure? Like, are you really sure about that? You know? And so, this is why these are... Yeah, these are very important decisions. They are. And I know many friends that have sort of tried to convince me of that. We're like, I don't know if that's true.

But to kind of go back to what we spoke about a second ago, you know, women at a certain age feeling this pressure and then kind of settling for less than they deserve, what would your advice be for women that are in that space? This is gonna sound like a social media soundbite. Yeah. Never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, You are in a much better position to... Let's say that you have a choice between a guy who has some issues.

Has some issues, but you can kind of deal with the issues. And when I say issues is he's not open-minded, right? And he's not the kindest person in the world. He's not open-minded, he's not kind, but everything else is good. Emotionally stable, you know, he's resilient, great in bed, like all these things are checking. You could have that,

or you could have no romantic relationship, but you can invest more time in your bestie over here. Who you'll never have sex with your bestie, but your bestie is going to deliver you everything else that you need. Intellectual stimulation, et cetera, right? Which one do you take? Your bestie, but your bestie is going to deliver you everything else that you need, intellectual stimulation, et cetera, right? Which one do you take? Your bestie, 10 out of 10.

There's no question, 10 out of 10 times, you take your bestie. My point is, is that we are human beings. We were put on this earth to be with other people. Stephen Porges, Polyvagal Theory, he says that we only can calm down, reduce our nervous system, through having the nervous system of others.

Now, does he say that you can have a dog? Yeah, he said a nervous system of a dog will work, right? Co-regulate. You co-regulate, absolutely. So you could co-regulate with a dog. Absolutely. I have a little dog, I co-regulate with my little guy. could co-regulate with a dog. Absolutely. I have a little dog, I co-regulate with my little guy. His name is Peter Gabriel, he's this small.

That's so cute. Right? So yeah, does that work? Absolutely. But Stephen Purges also says that if you want the next level of co-regulation, you do it with a lover. Mm-hmm. Right? And so, that's my point, is you never, ever settle. And also, I'm going to wrap up in a sec, I could talk to you forever, but to be aware

of your nervous system around people when picking a partner, right? No one talks about that. Oh my gosh. Women are always like, I feel, you know, I get butterflies or, you know, feel quite anxious and I can't stop thinking, I don't know whether that's a good thing. Yeah, it's not. So I think a lot of us heard about, we hear about chemistry and we ascribe butterflies and being nervous. I don't know what to say. It's because you don't know what to say. You're scared to say something around him.

Like, you know, like, what is it? Chemistry is this. Chemistry just means that you can have a communication and you and your partner, or the person you're having communication with, is actively listening to you. And then on top of it, you're physically attracted. If you have physical attraction and you have active listening,

that's chemistry, okay? It's not that you feel nervous to talk around somebody. That's not good, right? That's not good. So, we absolutely, I think that we oftentimes ignore our body. And our body says more than our words. Our body knows. Our body knows. And to Stephen Purchase's point, and your point of being aware

of our nervous system, what's very important to understand is that in essence, we always show up in every moment of our... Yeah, we always show up in every moment of our lives in one of two ways. We always show up in every moment of our lives in one of two ways, either green light or yellow and red light. Green light means that we're able to take in new ideas. We're able to be curious, we're able to listen, we're able to be present, we're able to learn,

we're more satisfied, that's green light. Yellow and red light means that... I'm too scared to say anything around them. Red light, yellow light. I want to walk away from this. I don't know what to say, right? Yeah, I don't want to embarrass him or me. You know, yellow, red light. That's the nervous system. The difference between the two is that autonomic nerve

that we were talking about before. And what we need to be in life is green as often as possible. I love that. In this stress, we live in... There's more anxiety. I just saw a bar chart yesterday, a matter of fact, tracking anxiety in the last 100 years. And it looks like a ski slope. Right now, we have more anxiety across all age groups

than we ever have in the history of the world. Our phone is really doing it mostly to us. So we live, we're anxious, all of us are anxious. All of us are living through a level of stress. And so how do you de-stress? You co-regulate, how do you co-regulate around someone that you could trust? And that's the reason why having someone,

having another nervous system that you could trust is so important. You gotta pick the right one. So one of the things that I wanted to ask you from your experience is being a matchmaker and then working, doing a lot of TV, reality TV, what you've learned from that. Because my background, which you probably don't know,

is I was on a reality show in my early 20s, and understanding what that, the implications of that, but understanding how it was just such a big experiment in relationships and dynamics between people and how often they would cheat was one of the most astonishing things. So what was some of your findings from or continue to be from that work? Yeah, I mean, quite honestly, there's a big difference between matchmaking and a dating show versus matchmaking in quote-unquote real life. Uh, you know, big difference. Big difference.

Different intentions behind. Yeah, I think it is intellectually dishonest for anyone to say that television is not two bookends for an advertisement. Like, that's what TV is. TV is entertainment. Can you have great lessons and can you have great stories that come from TV? Absolutely. You know, with one of the projects I do right now, which is, I think, one of the more popular shows in the UK,

this Married at First Sight, is, I think we have, as last time, we have seven plus couples still together. We have three babies over the... This is just over the last five years. Yeah, yeah, a baby was just born. It's like three, yeah, it's like incredible. You know, it's, people learn so much. Couples watch the show, they debate.

That in itself creates healing, that's therapy. There's lots of good, you know, that comes from it. But I think we also have to realize it's also there to entertain. It's also there to keep your eyes glued to what's happening so you don't turn to the next show. So I think that's important. Now, when it comes to my time matchmaking in real life,

what I learned most importantly is that the clients are so lovely, sweet, but in pain, in real pain. You know, you think about paying for a matchmaker. You know, some matchmakers charge $500, $1,000, $2,000, but most matchmakers charge $20,000000 to 100,000 pounds or dollars. Most. I have a friend of mine, my mentor, she charges roughly 150,000 pounds on the front end. And then upon successful marriage, another 150,000 pounds.

No. So there's no guarantee of her finding that person. There's no guarantee. So you think, okay, who... That's crazy. Well, you would think it's, it's, it's right. But the person that pays that is the person who feels as if they have no other option.

And this is imperative to their humanness, right? To be able to be with someone. That's what they're willing to pay, right? For it. You think about that. That's... that should give us pause, right? So, what I've learned through matchmaking is it's really a function of creating hope. That's truly what I think a great matchmaker does, is a great matchmaker helps to create hope and keeps that hope alive.

Most people who go to a matchmaker will not meet their partner through the matchmaker, but most people who go to a matchmaker will end up getting married. How is that? How do you... Why? Because the hope is kept alive, new skills are learned, and as a result, they're able to continue. That's, I think that's the key, is that so many of us enter the dating process. And I know for some people, it's not dating, you know, whatever, it's hanging out or whatever it may be.

But we enter the process and we become dismayed. And we become dismayed and some of us either retreat and then shut off or reflect, figure out what's the lesson I can learn in this. And then as a result, that's when I go, I grow. You know, I always say that healing is when you could find a lesson in the pain. So as we are dating, oh my God, it's a minefield.

It's super painful, but if you can find those lessons, you're healing along the way, and you're growing along the way. I love that. Yeah, so that's what I learned. For someone that perhaps doesn't feel like they want to go to a matchmaker, but doesn't want to date online, would you think that asking friends to set them up is good advice?

I think it's brilliant advice. It's brilliant advice. It's brilliant advice. It's brilliant advice. You know, if I were to say my top tip, and this is something that I write in the book, and it's interesting because I had this tip, I've been using this tip in my matchmaking agency for like 10 years, I never would tell anyone. I was like, okay, I need some gems,

I'm gonna put this in the book. My wife and I coined this phrase called the premium effect. And it's this notion, it's very simple, but it's very important. It's the notion that you are much more appreciated by a community that is not like your immediate community. Now, what does that really mean? What does that really mean?

So that is, for example, that is me coming here from the United States to the UK. I came here for three months just to be on one show. I was gonna go back to the States. Right? I was doing stuff in the States. I came here and all of a sudden I'm doing... I've got 11 series of celebs go dating, five years worth of married at first sight, I'm contributing to Lorraine. Like, you know, there's a million things I'm doing.

There was a premium placed on me because I'm not British. You know what I mean? And it goes the other way as well. If you go to the States and you're British. You go to the States and you're British, you win. The moment you step off the plane, you've won. Like, you won. There's no question. Like, you've won. The same thing... If you need your esteem boosted, that's the solution.

Oh, my gosh. You could be a British frog, hop your way over to the U.S. You will be treated as royalty. Like, you will be. You'll be treated as royalty. And so, the key is to always, not to always, but you want to look for the places where you're different. In the, uh, my matchmaking agency, I mean, quite honestly, it's, um,

I know some dating apps won't be happy with this, but I write it in the book is, I had, uh, when we started off, we had predominantly black women as clients. I took a lot of those black women and I created dating accounts on JDate, essentially Jewish date. Really? Yes. Where, yeah, and you think,

oh my God, Paul, that's crazy. What are you doing? And you know what would happen? They were bombarded by messages, bombarded, bombarded. Now, some of them were fetishizing or saying something ignorant, but the majority were like, why are you here? That's interesting, are you Jewish?

Right, are you black Jewish? Like, what's going on? Like, are you interested in a Jewish man? What's going on? And there was this curiosity that sparked. As a result of being different, a premium was placed on them. So what I would do with my clients is we would figure out, well, how can I place you in an environment where you are different?

And that's why I say, absolutely. Right now, when you are dating, if you live, let's say you live anywhere in the UK, anywhere in the UK, whatever your dating life is today, let's say on a scale from zero to 10, you give it a two. I guarantee you it's at least double that in the United States. You're going to have more interest. You're going to have more attention. You walk into a coffee shop and you order a coffee. Just hearing the accent is going to spark intrigue. And so maybe you can't go to the United States.

What is that? What do you do? Well, you know, I told someone, I told a friend of mine, I said, okay, so she lives in, is it Hertfordshire? Is it Hertfordshire? Yeah. So she is a white female, maybe 26, 27 years old. She was like, oh, you know, I'm trying to date,

trying to do something different. What do I do? I say, I need you to come down to South London where I live, go to this pop-up that's happening at the Black Cultural Archives. There that's happening at the Black Cultural Archives. There's an exhibit at the Black Cultural Archives in Brixton, okay? I want you to go and show up and I guarantee you,

I guarantee you, some people will say, what is she doing here? Right? But there will definitely be many that say, oh wow, what is she doing here? And that's exactly what happened. And so that's the key, is constantly place yourself in areas

where you can be different. There will typically be a premium effect assigned to you. That's genius. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. You got it. And I was like, oh no, I've told the world this is bad. It's out.

It's out, yeah. Brilliant. Well, thank you, Paul. This was such a beautiful conversation. Thank you for joining us today. I loved it. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

I hope you enjoyed that conversation between myself and Paul. And if you want to delve further into his work, he has an incredible book out called Find Love, How to Navigate Modern Love and Discover the Right Partner for You. And yeah, I hope you enjoyed that. I feel like I could listen to that episode so many times and learn something new. And it was such a joy to sit down and have him on the podcast.

So hopefully we will get him back. And if you guys enjoyed this episode, please write us a review on Spotify or Apple or wherever you get your podcast or mention us on social media. It really helps us get discovered by more like-minded people. And also, I just love hearing what you guys think, where you're listening, and

if you're enjoying the show. So thank you so much for listening. And as always remember, you are not alone. Goodbye.