Saturn Returns with Caggie - Motherhood, Fertility, and Career: Insights from Our Community, in Partnership with Hertility

Episode Date: December 13, 2024

In this special episode, Caggie speaks to two members of the Saturn Returns community who share their deeply personal journeys through motherhood, pregnancy, IVF, and balancing their careers. Their stories are raw, heartfelt, and profoundly important - a reminder that we are never alone on this journey. Trigger warning: this episode discusses sensitive topics, including termination of pregnancy and IVF. If these topics are difficult for you, please keep this in mind before you listen. This episode was made possible by Hertility, the go-to brand for women’s health, offering hormone and fertility testing, online consultations, and in-person treatments with the UK’s top experts.  Whether you’re navigating fertility questions, exploring motherhood, or seeking knowledge to feel more informed, Hertility is here to support you. For £10 off your first order, use the code Caggie10 here and get started on your journey to peace of mind.

Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. Today we are diving into a very big topic and that is fertility and motherhood. You guys might remember I interviewed Dr. Helen O'Neill back in season 9 I believe it was and she shared some amazing insights into this road that I feel many of us know very little about. We don't know much about our bodies, about our hormones, about fertility, about egg freezing, about IVF and it's a bit of a minefield and it feels like it's a bit of a mind field,

and it feels like it's one of those things that we only realize when we're on it, how sort of complex it can be. And so what we wanted to do for this episode was we put out a call to action to our audience to see if they had anything that they wanted to share. And it turns out many of you have your own stories in this space. And we had so, so many messages and I apologize that we weren't able to get back to them all. We were very overwhelmed. And it was amazing actually to see so many people willing to share their experience. And we narrowed it down to two.

They're both called Elizabeth and one is from the States and one is from the UK. And I sat down with them to hear their stories because they sent me a message about what they're navigating and I thought that they would be useful for others that might be on a similar path themselves. Now for those that might not know what Hertility is, it is the go-to health brand for all things women's health, offering hormone and fertility testing, online consultations and in-person treatments with the UK's leading experts in female health. So if you are thinking about your journey to motherhood, I highly suggest checking them out, whether it's just to find some information and we're going to

put links to articles that they have that just allow you to be a bit better informed or whether you actually want to take the test so you know what position you're in more holistically as you kind of delve into this journey because the more information we have the more empowered we can feel and I know so many of us feel very alone and feel very unequipped and have no idea what's going on with our bodies. So that's why I'm so thrilled to be partnering with a company that feels so aligned in values and that is so relevant to my community really. So thank you, Hattility. And in terms of today's guests,

I mean, it's you guys, it's the audience, which is very exciting. And I really enjoyed sitting down with both Elizabeths and getting them to share their journeys with me. Now, the first one that we're going to go into is I guess a trigger warning, perhaps I should say this, because it deals with subjects of termination of pregnancy, IVF. So if that's something you're navigating and it's a trigger point for you, I just want to kind of caveat that

before we get into it. But I was so struck by Elizabeth's story and how willing she was to share because it's something that's very, very personal and still, I guess, quite raw. So I won't say too much more and we'll kind of get into that story. And for those of you that are going through something similar, I am sending my love and I really feel that there needs to be more support in this space of people that are navigating it because it can feel quite isolating as we kind of get into in this episode. So I'm sending you love and I hope that this brings you comfort. Elizabeth, welcome to the Saturn Returns podcast. Thank you.

How are you today? I'm good, thank you. How are you? I'm good. And I'm super excited to have this conversation with you because we put out a little Q&A to our little question box to our audience around the subject of fertility, motherhood, people's journey. And you sent through the most beautiful voice note, and we were so touched by your vulnerability and your story that I thought we had to have you on the podcast to

kind of discuss your journey. So thank you firstly for that, for putting yourself forward in that way, because it is such a vulnerable subject and it's so loaded and it's so personal and it's tough to to speak about so firstly, thank you for that. Thank you. And to kind of begin, where would you like to begin in terms of this story? Because I know before we started recording you were saying how when you discovered the podcast. Yes. And so I feel like maybe that's that was also in tandem with your journey to motherhood right? Yes so I found the Saturn Returns podcast during a period of my fertility journey which was IVF. It kind of sinks right in the middle of my fertility journey and I found the Saturn Record Turns podcast during that hard time and I would walk around the park and listen.

I can take you from the start really is where it started which is when I felt pregnant the first time with my first baby and that was at the beginning of 2020 before COVID had made its appearance. And we felt pregnant and I went into trying to conceive very naively, I guess, now looking back, just expecting that my mom had me and my two brothers. There was no real kind of like talk of fertility issues or losing a baby or just any kind of struggles

before falling pregnant. So as soon as I found out I was pregnant, I was, yeah, excited, happy. Because how old were you then? I was 27. You were 27. And were you trying for a while or did it happen quite instantly?

It happened spontaneously but I was ready to be a mum. I had wanted a baby for so long and I was just like yes this is it like this is my time and we went through the first 12 weeks of pregnancy I think it's just those natural kind of worries of is it gonna be okay so we got to 12 weeks and I was like this is amazing like you know I'm still pregnant and everything's fine. Had the 12 week scan and yeah it was fine and then everything kind of started to come to a head of the 20 week scan which as a first pregnancy I just it was like any other normal scan. But when we got there, we had one 20 week scan and basically they just couldn't get all of the measurements.

So they said, come back next week and I'm sure we'll be able to get more measurements. And they couldn't see certain parts of the baby. So they were like, well, we're sure she'll move and we'll be able to get everything that we needed so we come back the week later I was starting to get a little bit anxious but just thought it's fine come back a week later and as soon as they scanned me she hadn't moved she was in the same position. And I was, they were like, get up, go for a walk, have a sugary drink, just shake on the table. And she wasn't moving. She was, we had a heartbeat, but she just wasn't moving in my tummy. And then I just sort of thought,

okay, something's not right. And the sonographers, another sonographer come in put the gel on my belly and nothing so they were like it's fine that they couldn't see the problems at that stage but we were we were scooted into another room and they were like we're gonna refer you to the Fetal Medicine Unit at the UCLH and it's then that I was starting to think, this doesn't sound, this is not the norm. I've not seen this. Yeah, like I just, this isn't normal.

But you were kind of like supported and guided by the midwives and the doctors. So the following weeks, this is two weeks now after our 20 week scan. So I was coming very close to being sort of like 24 weeks pregnant. I was six months pregnant. Which is the point where you it's really it's not that easy to have. I mean already for people that don't know you can have you can terminate your pregnancy up until a point but the longer you go the more essentially kind of

traumatic it is really. It is so so 24 weeks is the cut off basically with the NHS and we were kind of on, we were dead. On the brain definitely, yeah. Yeah. So by the time we'd actually got to the fetal medicine unit. You were 22 weeks or something. No, so I was, so by the time I'd had that scan at the fetal medicine unit, I was about five days away to becoming 24 weeks pregnant. It happened really quickly because of COVID, the appointments were kind of pushed back

and also I was on my own, like this is in COVID where you have your masks and those first two 20-week scans I was on my own, I couldn't have anybody with me, which is the pandemic, we all went through it then. But we were then at the fetal medicine unit and I just remember sitting in that waiting room thinking, this is not, just knowing that something wasn't right and the only way that I can explain it, because I remember walking to the station and it's as if everything around you becomes blurry

and you're almost in a washing machine and you can't hear anything. And you're just like, you don't know if your baby's okay. You don't know if you're having this baby. I was showing, I had a bump and everything. And then we had our stand at the fetal medicine unit and she was still in the same position and I just knew that something wasn't right. And they did the scan and then someone else come in and then someone else come into this room and then the person that was doing this

kind of taking charge just was, get dressed and sit down. And his words to this day were, and I remember them so clearly, his words were, there's something seriously wrong with your baby. And I'm sitting there like, my goodness, like, what? Like you just don't know really how to take it in and essentially what had happened is

that her hands didn't form, she had missing bones in her like lower part of her arm, she had bones missing in her legs, she had just the quality of life that she would have had beyond me giving birth. The consultants, they were like, we don't know, we don't know whether your baby is going to be cognitively impaired, but they definitely will not be able to walk or use any hand without prosthetics. That's when very almost straight for like, if you want to carry on with the pregnancy, we would have to amputate and give her prosthetic let and I was just like, Elizabeth, I'm so sorry. Yeah. And I was just like, as a mother to a daughter now, you just look at quality of life over everything. And for me, I made the decision to end the pregnancy and I had no idea what a termination for medical reasons was. And I remember saying to my mother-in-law at the

time, I was like, it's fine. It would just be like a heavy period. It wasn't. It was full labor. And then I'm so sorry. No, don't apologize. It's just heartbreaking, but thank you for sharing it. Because it's like we said before we started recording, people don't share these stories. No, and it was. And then, you know, you then give birth to a baby and then you go home from the hospital after going through labour without your baby. Your baby is there in the hospital, then you have to leave. And then we had a funeral for her and we've got her ashes now. But, you know, it's not, it's just not anything.

Like you think it's going to be? Nothing, no. I could not have even imagined that something like that could happen to somebody. And it did, it happens to me. Because also you're dealing with not only what's happening in your body hormonally, but the shock of the information you've been told,

then the grief of then losing losing and then also having to go through labour which is a horrific thing to go through anyway even if you get the best result on the other side. Yeah, yeah and you're on a ward with women that are having babies so you're kind you're in a room which is the NHS, you know you can't just be, luckily we were in our own little private room but it was still on the labour ward but when you're kind of in it, like I said, everything around you becomes blurry, it becomes, you just kind of like there, like you just kind of are just being kind of like carried along based on the advice of the doctors and the consultants and everybody and that is very much what we went guided by and that was that was my first sort of you know pregnancy and

kind of like furthermore after that we were genetically tested to understand why, what had happened had happened. And it transpired that I actually carry a gene that causes a 50-50 chance of a baby to be kind of like grow normally and a 50 chance of it being in the way that we had, I called her Iris. So that was our baby's name, yeah. Or, you know, the scale in which Iris was affected, and it kind of is like a scale where you would never,

this gene can, like I'm a carrier, but I'm kind of, I'm okay. But then it can be of the other spectrum, and for us, we experienced the far end of the spectrum where it kind of was the worst that it could be. Could be. Is that something that's a very rare genetic condition? Yeah. Very, very rare. So great old mystery. The test that they created to find out whether I had the gene, they created it because of what happened to us, there was no test,

but actually my dad has it, my dad has it, and he has a prosthetic leg and a hand that didn't form properly, so it's just a thumb, but he has had been told his whole life up until Iris was born that he was a Phlebitomide baby. What does that mean? So when his mum was pregnant with him she took a Phlebitomide tablet, Phlebitomide? Yeah and that affected him. Yeah so it's a contraceptive pill I think that women took in the 60s that caused abnormalities and stuff. Abnormalities, yeah. So my dad was under the impression that

that is what happened because he's got five brothers and sisters all completely unaffected and he's the only one. So he kind of grew up his whole life thinking that he was a flaming my baby when actually he's got this gene. So for the whole family to kind of... For the whole family, yeah. So it's kind of like giving my dad a bit of clarity really to understand why he is how he is as well, which has been an incredible sort of journey for him to be on. But yeah, so basically that is what caused the genetic condition and what caused the abnormalities in our pregnancies. But what we were offered was IVF. As a sort of, because of what had happened,

they then offered, how come? Yeah, so as a way, because I kind of have 50% chance of conceiving naturally and having a healthy baby, they were like, we can give you the opportunity to have IVF and it's called pre-genetic diagnosis IVF. So essentially they make the embryos, they take a sample from the embryo once it's five days old and can test that embryo for the gene.

So you know whether the baby is going to be healthy or not when you're at the stage of implantation. Before you've gone through, you know, getting pregnant and everything, yeah, okay. So I had no idea that that was possible. I mean, it was incredible when I found out and I was kind of like in this period of like, OK, well, I'm never going to be able to have children. I've got genetic condition.

I've just lost this beloved baby. Like, where am I? Like, am I going to be able to become a mom? Like, I was completely just had no idea what was going to be my next sort of kind of like steps into motherhood and fertility. And then we were given this opportunity to go through with IVF and we did it and we had some embryos and we had healthy embryos and we had one implanted and it just, and it didn't happen. It didn't, I think just the trauma, the stress, the anxiety. I was gonna say, how soon after having to terminate the pregnancy

did you then go into the IVF journey? So we, so it took about a year to get the answers that it was a genetic condition in me that caused the pregnancy. So for a year you didn't really know? No, there were kind of understandings that it was most likely going to be genetic but they didn't and but they couldn't they didn't know whether it was a I was a carrier they didn't know how I got the gene there were lots of kind of like background tests going on. And it was about a year later that we found out

that it was me that's a carrier and the gene come from my dad. And then we were off the diet. So I think it was about, I gave birth in July, 2020. And then naively fell pregnant again two months later just just by chance just by chance and just being like no there's no way this can happen again absolutely no way and the exact same thing happened again two months later. So wait, two months after going through giving birth,

you got pregnant again and the same condition? The same condition, the same severity, identical thing happened. And even, did you say that it's in Great Ormond Street, were like, they have never seen what had happened. It wasn't up until 20 weeks again. It was up until 12 weeks. Okay, but still.

So, it wasn't easier, it was almost harder in a way, because it's just, I don't know, it was harder, it felt a bit more clinical, it felt a bit more kind of because we ended the pregnancy again and it was, I was under general anaesthetic, I didn't have that labour experience and I kind of actually struggled more from that than I did the labour because I felt, this sounds a bit kind of extreme, but I almost felt like it was my baby that I was really once it was almost kind of like ripped out of me in a way and I had no kind of you can process it in any way. No and it wasn't what I wanted either but we I had that in December and then it was the February of 2021 that we were told that we

started the IVF journey with guys at St. Thomas'. And we kind of had our first initial appointment. We were told statistics of IVF that I was like shocked by. It was, I think only, I think so I must have not even been 30 at the time and we were told that there was about 30% chance of it working or and even though I'd fallen pregnant twice the statistics were low I couldn't say a hundred percent sure but they were low when it comes to percentages and and so that kind of ball got rolling and it was about August 2021

that we were given an appointment for the following year. And it was in 2022 that we started the actual process of IVF where we started the injections, the air collection, the testing. And it was September 2022 that I had one of the embryos implanted, one of our healthy embryos, and it didn't work. I took the pregnancy test and I wasn't pregnant in the morning and you were waiting for those two weeks. And also the hormones and everything and like... It's just, yeah, just, it's hard. And I was, yeah, you know, kind of just still kind of in this whirlwind of grief and loss. And it's just this determination to have something that you kind of did have,

but now you don't have, and that unknown of the future, it's really hard, and you're just trying to find people that have gone through something similar. Well, I was gonna say, did you have, as much as one can, going through something like that, because it is so personal in your body and your experience, but did you have support at that time? I did have support.

I had an incredible support network around me with friends and family and my partner I did but but that kind of from a woman's perspective because it was kind of me and my body and totally yeah I felt like God I could what's wrong with me why is this happening to me I just want a baby I felt all of the support had around me was immense, it was incredible, but actually I just wanted to hear stories of women say, do you know what, I've been there and it's going to be okay. I've been there and I've got a baby. Like I just was seeing- You didn't have that. No, it was hearing those stories of other women maybe that they were there,

but maybe not the most reliable resources. Not in a way that makes you feel held in your experience? Yeah, I couldn't connect with the stories that I was reading. I think I couldn't, I didn't have the support that I think I needed at the time, but we actually decided to take a six month break. I was like, let's just put a stop to it. And then I fell pregnant naturally with Orla, my daughter now, in March, 2023. And she just come along and we weren't particularly trying, but when kind of we were open, just come along and we weren't particularly trying,

but when kind of we were open, we were actually about to start IVF in that April, but we felt pregnant in the March. And IVF, just to get a little bit of clarity, the IVF was really because they were like, we can eliminate the possibility of this genetic condition happening again if we do IVF, but yet the statistics were very low. So you probably were like, I got pregnant twice very easily. So that must

be quite... Yeah. It was really difficult because I knew that we could just... Get pregnant. ...get pregnant. But then... You couldn't have had it. Yeah. So when we did fall pregnant with all that I So scared

terrified completely just Was adamant that something was gonna go wrong. I thought it was gonna be a repeat of everything The joy I would say from about 90% of that pregnancy was taken away. I was of that pregnancy was taken away. I was grateful, happy, just like proud of my body to have been able to fall pregnant and just grateful to have been pregnant but I was so sure that something was going to go wrong during the whole pregnancy but we had a 12-week scan and she was moving and I saw feet and I saw hands and I saw a baby on that screen that I hadn't seen before and it was just I cannot even explain to you the joy that

that was. It was it was incredible and yeah, we had frequent scans after that. And at each scan, we were shown pictures of feet and hands and the bones and they were like, she's okay, like she's warming, she's there, she's in your belly. And it was incredible. Because I can imagine if you had the normal timing of scans, like those in between periods would have been so harrowing for you because you'd just be thinking what if something has got, and then the build up to each scan of them waiting. So did you have them quite consistently? We had, yeah, so it was the first, it was more or less every four weeks we had a scan and it was at the fetal medicine unit at the UCLH and they were exceptional.

They were, you know, just incredible with how talented they are to kind of like comfort us like having been through what we've been through and also you just, you could see what you were looking at, that it was all okay. And yeah, so we had our pregnancy and the birth was not what I expected it to be like. What happened in the birth? Oh, I had high blood pressure for more or less the whole pregnancy, which I think was induced by myself. Yeah, I was getting so stressed. So I ended up being induced early and it was an emergency C-section.

But you know what? At the end of the day, I think labor in itself is unpredicted and you could, no one can go in, I think we all go into labor with a hostile back and I'll have a plan of how we want it to go. But how it's gonna happen and it really does. It really does. So I ended up with an emergency c-section

but I was like, do you know what, at the end of the day, I've got my baby, she's here and I'll do it again in a heartbeat. So, yeah, and then she's here, and I've got my beautiful baby that, even today, I'm like, I can't believe it, that I'm here, that I'm in this place, that I so desperately wanted to be, you know,

two or three years ago. And actually, that I'm in this place, that I so desperately wanted to be, you know, two or three years ago. And actually what I have been thinking, like reflecting on before speaking to you, is I feel like there's a kind of a period between going from trying to conceive and how I felt was that you're kind of like pushed along by appointments. So you're forever waiting for your next appointment, you're waiting for your next scan, you're

waiting for your next injection tablet, that your whole life, your whole identity becomes governed by trying to conceive or potentially falling pregnant, that you then have this baby and then you're like, what do I do now? When's the next appointment? What's my next injection? What do I do? What do I do? And actually really surprisingly,

what I found for the first six months of when Aldo was born, I still wanted to be pregnant. How come? I don't know. And this is what I find really interesting. I don't know whether I'm the only one. As in you wanted to fall pregnant again after having... Yeah, so that urge to have a baby and fall pregnant didn't just go away. It intensified.

It almost intensified. Like I was thinking, like gosh gosh, like, I, I, why do people ever want to wait more than a year to have a baby? Like, I want one now. And my baby is like two weeks old. And I was like, I mean, thinking back now, I think, okay, no, that wasn't normal. But it's that, I think for women that have gone through such a, and especially maybe having lost a baby as well, those feelings when your baby is hit don't just switch off for me, they didn't just switch off. I still had that, I was still taking pregnancy tests,

like each month, like after me and my partner had had sex, like I would take a pregnancy test, I'd be like, oh, and then when it wasn't pregnant, I was like, oh, and would feel sad. And I was like, it was such a, I was so surprised by it. Like now that I think like the hormones are balanced out, it's settled. But do you think that's because you had three years of like that being really present 24 seven and like feeling that that was what you wanted more than anything and obviously that I guess that doesn't just switch off. No, it doesn't and that was the most surprising thing about entering into new motherhood. Ready for motherhood 2.0. I know! I was like, oh my god. It was just, that was the most surprising thing for me.

But on the whole, motherhood has been incredible and I love it. And having all of on the back of what was a really kind of like tumultuous journey and it was up and it was down and we had just it was a road to get there. It was yeah that in particular was really surprising for me and I do I wonder whether there are whether that was a normal way of. I mean probably not I'm sure other women must feel the same way. Do you think it's still, like, do you have that still, that yearning for another baby or has it, like? I definitely do, but it's definitely settled. I think the kind of like changing circumstances that I've had over the last few months and

just having a bit more time to look after myself and really know what self-care means for me, what to do to make myself feel good and what just makes me be a good person, like just feel good about myself. It's definitely helped me settle into motherhood and actually just like look at what I do have and appreciate what I've got and just think, like this, just take on board what you have, put aside. But it is, it's such a powerful thing. Yeah, it is. It's that really powerful urge to want to have a baby that it didn't just switch off when I was holding her.

Being out the other side of this traumatic experience that you went through over the last couple of years and this thing that even though you said you had support, it's not the same for your partner or like, you know, your friends can be there and your family can be there, but you are in a state of mourning for something that actually was in your body,

but no, and then it's not. And then to have to go through that twice and then the IVF and everything, it's kind of on your own with it, no matter how supported you are. You are, yeah. And my question really is like for anyone that's kind of in the midst of that

or experiencing something similar, when I think for women especially, it's like motherhood and womanhood are so wrapped up in each other, that it's really hard to kind of separate the two. So like being out the other side and having a beautiful baby girl and everything and seeing, you know, that it's all kind of

come to something rather magical. What would your advice be for those that are going through? I think my advice would be, so what I did, and this sounds maybe a bit cliche, but I tried to find just joy and what and something to be grateful for each day and for me it was having a walk being going for a walk around the park, listen to a podcast, I become one of these people that looked at the sunsets, I looked at the trees, I looked at nature, I just looked at the world and just thought right you know what each day I'm here I trust that this journey that I'm being on, even though it's given me some of the worst emotions and the worst kind of curve balls ever, that I would never, for anyone that is going through it, I just, it does, you do come out the end of it in whatever way that you do. You do, and it's hard, isn't it?

Because you don't know what somebody's end, the end of their journey is, whether it is with a baby, through being naturally pregnant, surrogacy, adoption, you just have to trust that the end of your journey will be as it is. And I just think it's just trying to find things that you are grateful for.

And just like, for me, it was literally walking around the park and looking at nature. And I'm a spiritual kind of like, in tune person, but I was just trying to take each day as it comes, like just trying to do something day as it comes, like just trying to do something that I knew made me feel good, even if it was literally for half an hour of the day. And then you feel it's, you know, you're kind of in that,

but like I said, that washing machine of emotions, like not really knowing where you are, but I'm now four years out of it. I always knew when I was going through this, I was like, this is a story, this is something you have to tell. Iris has come into your life, although she's not here physically, this is something you have to tell. Women that have also gone through a similar experience have to hear it. But there is still joy out there, there is still hope, there's still, you know,

things to love and be grateful for that. It's still there. It is, and I can never say to somebody, oh, don't think about it, try and make it not. Don't go through your whole life. Well, it feels like you're saying, because I know people that are on their own journey to motherhood and either struggling or having IVF order.

And it does sort of eclipse everything else in your life because it's all you see as well. Like you only see babies, you only see them online in the street and it's just suddenly. But your whole life is governed by it. Like even to the point where you're like, oh I might change my job, you think if I'm going to change my job, will I have been in that

job for long enough to take maternity leave? Oh, let's move house. Okay, but if I move house, will I be close enough to the hospitals that do the, you know, particular, everything becomes trying to conceive and especially when it comes to IVF. That I guess everybody has their own unique way of managing it. But I guess it's just trying to find some joy and just I knew that I would have, I don't know how, I don't know why. But I kind of always knew that this is how. I knew I was going to have all that at some point. I didn't know when, I didn't know how, I didn't know how it was going to happen, but I just knew, I knew that I knew that this is what,

where she would come when she was meant to come, which might sound a bit wacky but... I mean you're on the right podcast. Did that keep you going? Yeah I knew, I just, I had that end goal in my mind and I just thought this is not how I imagined things would be and how I would get to here but I knew she would come along. I knew that maybe there was like an element of visualization or manifestation manifesting in it but I could see it, I knew that maybe there was like an element of visualization or manifestation manifesting in it, but I could see it. I could see myself falling pregnant naturally and having a baby. I just didn't know when. I can't say it necessarily made it easier, but it's just having that hope, I guess, and just having that positive mind frame and just believing

that you will, and motherhood will come to everyone, I think, that wants to be a mum. Like, it will, you know, if you want to be a mother, it will come, I guess, in whatever way. And it is, it's like you said, it's that primal feeling of being a mum, it is, it's just natural to most women but I'm not sure if that's helpful or really. No it is, I think that's really beautiful and I think that that's sometimes what people need to just have hope to hold on to. So thank you for sharing that. Yeah, no, it's my pleasure. And yeah, it's just, it's a tough journey.

And I just wish that. It's a, you've had a really tough journey, but I think, you know, being able to even talk about it, here, amazed and so impressed and so in awe of what you've gone through and with so much grace and dignity and to come out the other side with your beautiful baby girl is just lovely and I'm so happy for you that that has happened. But also for people that are listening that may,

you know, because you said before we started recording that there were no spaces or places for you to really find the support that you needed of someone that's actually been through it. And that sounds like something that could have helped a little bit alleviate some of that pain. It would have. Having a community or just a space where women can talk or just share their experiences. Because I think for my experience is my experience,

but there's lots of women that have gone, are probably going through something very similar, maybe not exactly how I have, but it's just, it's that feeling of that you're not alone. And you, when you are feeling alone, you grasp onto anything that anyone says like, oh yeah, no, I've got this and I had a baby or and then it doesn't help and you've got Instagram and TikTok and Facebook and you've got

I've fallen pregnant and you just think why is it so easy for you and not for me but a space in the community where women share their experiences and just it knowing that it is okay, it will be okay in the end. And even if you feel like it's not okay at the moment. And it's just I did I felt very, very alone for a lot of it apart from my night little Facebook group. I don't necessarily think was the most helpful. But it was something most helpful. It was something. It was something, it was something that I could read and I kind of had like a little, I was sort of just wanting to read anything, anyone's story about VF or just baby loss, I could read that. But yeah, it's just

knowing that if you are going through it, you're not alone. And there's so many women I've heard of since kind of between family and friends. Like even I talked to my friends, they say, oh, yeah, I know somebody that's lost a baby. Or that it is, like it does. And yeah, you're not alone. There are people out there. There is. Thank you so much.

Thank you, Kagu. Sharing your story. I really appreciate you coming on and I feel like it's going to be a powerful one for our audience to hear. I hope so. Thank you Elizabeth for sharing your journey to motherhood and being so vulnerable with your experience. I'm sure that it has touched many who are listening that are navigating something similar. And the next guest we have is another Elizabeth from across the pond, and she is based in

DC. And she shares her experience of trying to figure out how to kind of fit motherhood into running her own business and getting to that point where, you know, we don't necessarily always feel like we're completely ready in this sort of duality that we feel because we may be excelling in our careers and how do we find the balance between all of these things and how do we become more informed to make these decisions? And that's really where fertility comes in because it allows and empowers you

to kind of make an informed decision based on your body, based on your lifestyle. Whilst the general narrative, I feel, goes around that it's your fertility dives off a cliff at 35. There's so many more nuances that go into that. And also some things are just outside our control, but I feel like the more we understand our bodies, what's going on, our genetics, our hormones, the better decisions we can make. And that's kind of what we touch on in this piece with Elizabeth.

Elizabeth, thank you so much for joining me on the Saturn Returns podcast and for sending in your thoughts around motherhood and career, because I know that that is a hot topic for our listeners. So would you be able to share a little bit about where you're at with that journey at the moment? Yes, of course. So basically to give a little bit of backstory,

in my 20s I worked for a startup for women. We were all in our 20s and 30s, so I kind of got to witness then a lot of women that were in leadership roles kind of enter motherhood and what that looked like for them, specifically women that were owning their own business. And then after being at a startup for six years, I was just kind of ready to move into running my own business. And I've been married about three years. But at the same time, I was thinking about starting my own business. And I've been married about three years. But at the

same time, I was thinking about starting my own business, I was getting married. And then kind of when I first got married, I was like, okay, maybe we'll be married a year. And then start thinking about having kids, I kind of thought magically that thing would hit me where I was ready. I think a lot of people think that. So right when I got married, I started telling my husband, I was saying, okay, I think it's time to start getting ready to start my own business. I really want to have it going before I even really know I want to be a mom. And he goes, why would you want to do that? Wouldn't you want to be able to take a maternity leave? Because in the US and honestly, at the company I was at, I think it's only six weeks. Yeah, which isn't that quite good for the

US? I mean, I feel like it's, or maybe that is the standard, maybe it's two weeks for men. Yes, it's two weeks for men, which is crazy. My cousin just had her first baby and her husband was home for two weeks. And then she was just on her own, which is nuts. But yeah, six weeks is like kind of standard. Some companies do eight. My sister-in-law took five months, which was amazing. Like that's kind of unheard of, which I know it's, everybody kind of looks at the US maternity leave and are like, what the heck? You're not even, if you have a C-section, you're not even recovered. Yeah, no, you're not even recovered. Yeah, no you're not.

I know, it's insane. So basically, I feel like as a woman, you have to do all this pre-planning for something that even sometimes you're not even sure if you want. I was already thinking, okay, maybe I need to do this. Maybe I need to leave this job because of this. And maybe I need to do this because of something I'm not even sure that I wanna to step into, which is interesting.

Now that I look back three years post that, I think everything's always clearer when you're on the other side. But in what sense, as in that you were planning and prepping for this thing, you weren't sure that you wanted? Exactly, yes. Yeah. Because even last year, once I was about a year into

running my own business, around the holidays my mom kind of sat me down and was like, what's going on here? Like, or can you just give me some insight? Because I feel like my husband and I have always been pretty personal about like what our plans are. Even when we first got married, you know, we've been together 10 years, so I think it's also that background of having had a long relationship, spending most of our 20s. He's wonderful, I couldn't be more lucky.

He's honestly so supportive and so relaxed, and he works for the government. When I was like, I'm going to start my own art business, he was the first person to tell me to sell my paintings. I could not be luckier. Yeah, which is nice. But exactly, I was kind of prepping. And honestly, things I think happened for a reason. I'm so glad I started my own business, but I was maybe hurrying things along so I felt like I could be

at a place to enter into motherhood when I wasn't even fully sure. This time last year, I was just like, maybe it'll never hit me. I was kind of waiting for that feeling to hit of saying like, okay, now I'm ready. It's time to step into this. Then this time last year, I was just like, maybe it won't hit me and maybe that's okay. And then a couple more months passed

and maybe it was also, I felt more stable with my clients. I felt more stable in who I was. And I think a huge change too was I was really at the point where I liked myself. I liked how I lived. I liked how I was doing stuff. I liked the fact that I was able to leave a job that I thought was like my dream job and then go for something else and allow my dreams to change. And I was really happy in where I was and then a couple months later I was just like okay actually maybe we could do this so really just in the last couple months my husband's name is Victor we've been like

more open to it but it's weird too because I feel like the more open I've and I haven't honestly like talked to people about it like I haven't been like oh we're trying because that's just like a weird conversation to have with people. But I've had so many people ask me, like I just went on a work trip. So I my business is basically I'm a creative director for fashion companies. I come in and I'll do like I'll play in photo shoots and I'll go with them on shoots. So it's a lot of travel too.

And then I'm also a painter. So I'll do a lot of paintings for clothing companies and home decor brands and they'll take it and put it on objects and sell it. So it's very much me. So it's really hard to kind of hire and outsource that. Yeah. But it's so funny because I've been traveling

with this new team and they're wonderful. And a lot of it are younger girls in their 20s that are like the production assistants and helping and We were all hanging out after the shoot one night and this girl had asked me a couple of times But it asked me again like so what are your plans with motherhood? Like what are you thinking about? And I was just like, oh my gosh, this is such so personal but at the same time I think she's asking because she's very much looking ahead for herself. Yeah. How do you find that question?

Do you do you like it? Are you happy to share? Or do you feel that it's sort of invasive and too personal? Yeah, I think it just depends on the person asking. But at the same time, it's funny. Did you ever feel this way where you like don't want to jinx it? You don't want to be like, yeah, like I'm totally excited about it. I want to do this. And then because there's also this level of, you don't really know until you start trying if this is even like a possibility. So it's like, it's like, I don't, I don't know, I just am like, you don't want to put too much out there. Because

sometimes you feel like if you put too much out there, then you're like putting too much pressure on it. Totally. Because in terms of, yeah, when you decide to sort of get on the road to motherhood, you don't know whether your journey is going to be getting pregnant straight away and everything goes swimmingly and according to plan, or it's going to be a really long tumultuous one. Because I know you said in your message that you've sort of started, you're working with your hormones and your cycle, is that something that you've consciously done to sort of prepare for that stage or is that just something that you've been practicing anyway? And how do you feel about like what could empower you a bit more that perhaps isn't readily available to start that journey?

Yes, well, so basically I've always had really terrible periods, like to the point where like I'm throwing up ever since I was, you know, 12 years old and now I'm 32. So that's a solid 20 years. And then I was on the pill for like, I don't know, maybe five years and that helped with those symptoms, but it just did not work for me of how it made me feel hormonally. I think I'm like really in tune with my body. I'll kind of even know, people think I'm insane when I say this, but I feel like I'll know down to like the hour I'm getting my period. I can just like really tell what's going on. I use the Clue app. I've used that for years and years.

It's just so helpful because even a week ago, I was like, why am I so tired? Why am I so hungry? I was like, I know where I am in my cycle. Then that's also helped by tracking of being on this road to motherhood to be like, when am I ovulating? But I'm really excited because I was looking

more into the fertility that you know, you guys are talking about in this episode. And I think I'm going to order one of those kits because it looks really interesting, especially when it comes to really kind of getting more into the nitty gritty because right now I'm using an app that kind of just tracks the emotions, but it doesn't like, see more than that. Yeah, it doesn't give you a holistic picture of like your overall health and your blood and all of that stuff that is so important to be informed with when you start the road to this journey, right? Exactly, and so my annual gyno appointment is in March, so when I went in this March,

it's so funny because I feel like even then I still wasn't ready. I think I was kind of like talking myself into it. I think I do this with a lot of stuff. I'll like, I have to say stuff out loud a bunch for it to feel real. So even at my birthdays in June this year, my husband and I were on a trip and I was just like, oh, this might be my last birthday with not having a baby. And he was just like, you're really focused on it. my last birthday with not having a baby and he was just like, you're really focused on it. I get that though, because also I think there's a valid argument that I don't know if anyone's ever complete. I mean, some people are, some people are, but I think some people don't ever feel completely ready for motherhood or anything.

You just kind of, you just go. Yes, and that's what it's so funny, because when I was younger, I know my mom always wanted to be a mother. She would say, like, I always knew I wanted to be a mother. I love babies. I see her with my nieces and nephews and she loves it. But then when I was in my early 20s,

she would always say, like, I want you to have a career. I want you to have a career where you can support yourself, where you choose to, like, I love my dad, but she, where you don't you choose to like I love my dad But she's like well you choose to be with him like you don't feel like financially like you have to she's like I want that For you, and then it's funny that I enter my 30s, and she's like tick-tock My mom has always been exactly the same and then recently she's been like, you know, at about 37, I thought I was going to have a third and I, you know, I couldn't, I don't think she'd mind me sharing that. But she's like telling me this stuff to be like, so crack on, you know, you don't

have forever. And it always says things like there's no perfect time, you'll never be completely ready. And so I get that. Do you feel that that has played like a big role? Cause I think as well for a lot of our listeners and it's a, I don't want to say it's an issue, but it's a sort of dichotomy that a lot of people are in, women that have these amazing careers that are sort of excelling on the corporate ladder or whatever it might be running their own businesses.

And then they're kind of like, okay, now I have this, this window for motherhood to kind of squeeze that in, but how do I juggle this? How do I keep this one going and make space for this one? And I think that that's when a lot of women feel quite split. I mean, I could not agree more. It's just exactly that.

I feel, you know, I'm really striving in my career. I'm running my own business. I'm, instead of working behind. I'm running my own business. Instead of working behind the scenes at a fashion and retail business, pushing it forward for their name, I'm finally using my own name on collaborations and kind of enjoying that so much.

And then it's like, okay, wait, do I put all this on pause? I'm getting to travel with brands now. I'm getting to just, my husband and I just booked a trip to Puerto Rico in January, like we're just you were you're finally in that stage where you feel like you have this momentum going and then you know my cousin just had her first baby and like everything pauses like she you know it's just like there's a but maybe at the same time like we need pause in life I've been kind of craving that a little bit lately.

I've been craving slowing down. I've been craving a pause too, even though things are going okay. And I think that comes down to like your cycle too. It's just really like learning to listen to yourself more. And honestly, anything I feel like I go through or I've gone through where I have kind of been told to like pause

or there's been a halt in life at the end of the day, it's worked out better. So I don't know, it's so hard because it's one of those things where like, I'm such a planner. I mean, you have to be like you have to be to be a successful woman who's running her own business and tries to make time for friends and family and you know tries to like support a household and do all these things. You have to be a planner but at the same time like have we lost room for like the unknown or the magic or that experience? It's so challenging. So much of motherhood I think is because it's this you know it's a version of

ourselves we don't know. How can you plan for that? No, and that was a huge thing that last December. I was like, and I'm feeling more open to it now. Like I'm actually, it's a weird change that's going on, but last December I was like, I'm nervous for who that person is. Why? I think it's because like my, my mom always put us everybody first, and I was like, I

don't want to, like, necessarily fall into that same hole. I love that. I think it's kind of naturally what happens as a mother, but I think when you lose a sense of yourself, then you aren't showing up as, like, the best mother you could be. If that makes sense. It makes perfect sense because I think we have these connotations that, or associations that a motherhood is self-sacrificing, puts herself, that being a mother is self-sacrificing, you put yourself last and we probably all have examples of, you know, whether it's our own mothers or people we know that have done that. But when you do run your own business and you've worked

really hard to establish yourself in some sort of space, you're like, it doesn't match with the version of you who you are today. But I think it's about reframing, I don't know, because I'm not a mother yet, so I don't know. But like reframing that and knowing that the two can coexist. Yes, and there can be space for both. And I think also what a partner looks like is so different than how we grew up. Like I look at my brothers and, you know, my brother's also an entrepreneur, you know, but he is so present.

He's picking her up from school. He's changing the diaper. It's so different nowadays too, which I mean, I'm sure it's not like that everywhere. But I mean, compared to what it was like 50 years ago, it's incomparable. It's just really, it's interesting because yeah, now I'm feeling open to it.

I'm excited for the next chapter, but I haven't really left space for the unknown much in the last, gosh, probably 10 years. I feel like I've been so planned that it's kind of, when I have gotten over the fear, I'm like excited now, which is interesting. That's good. What, if anything, like what would help you right now

be feel more informed or empowered about the next step and where you're gonna go from here? Yeah, so my cousin really planned like her birth, which I think is honestly focusing on that step or even like the first step. I think when honestly focusing on that step or even like the first step. I think when you think about the whole timeline of, oh my gosh, my child is like a 20 year old. It's like, I'm thinking too far ahead when I go down these steps. You really are a planner.

I know, it's terrible. I need to, it's like, I'm such a planner, but then I'm such a creative, it's because I'm a Gemini, so I have like very two different lines. But yeah, so it's like just focusing on, honestly, the first step, which is like getting pregnant, like we were just mentioning. So this March I went to my gynecologist and I was like, I'm starting to think, and she was like, okay, we'll start taking supplements

and start taking a prenatal.. I wouldn't have honestly known that unless I had gone to my gynecologist and said, hey, I'm starting to think it. She said, okay, a month out, then you're starting to start trying to start taking a prenatal. I never would have known that. There's just not a lot of education around even the step of getting pregnant, which is really, really interesting because it's like we go so far ahead to like, what does motherhood look like? We don't even think about like the pregnancy and like the giving birth. And what I really loved that my cousin did was she really focused on like preparing her body. And that was like, you know,

doing certain workouts and preparing her body for like the birth and swimming and just be getting to like a very kind of also like healthy place physically because it is a huge strain on your body to give birth and like that alone is probably a really intense experience. So just preparing kind of for that I think is step one. Also, I don't think people realize how much preparation you can do to get pregnant as well, in terms of looking after your body, eating certain things, like you said, taking prenatal supplements. And there is a lot you can do to put yourself in a position,

should you wish to become pregnant, that can help that process. Exactly. And even, you know, I've been looking into it too and talking to my husband and I'm like, it's not all me. Like, it's you too. You know, you have to focus. Well, that's another thing that people like, there's so much pressure on women that if there's anything wrong in terms of it not happening, I think women always carry that burden of responsibility. But like you say, it takes two. You've both got to be healthy and looking after your stuff.

Exactly. Exactly. And that's a hard thing is it's so interesting too, because I've had women in my family do IVF and then I've had women in my family get pregnant the first month they try. So it's just you never know. And I think, and then I've had women I know who have done IVF for years and then they go on vacation and they get pregnant. Like I don't know. It's just like a mix of things. And then specifically too, I just know so many women like in DC that are doing IVF right now that are just like, Oh, well, my insurance pays for it.

And like we've been trying for a while. So I'm gonna try to do it. And like, it's still not working, you know? So it's so tough. It's also, I just think like the environment sometimes plays a big role also of just, there's such a high level of stress here. It's really just a lot sometimes. That's why I think having that personal,

as much as one can, taking on that kind of personal responsibility and empowering yourself to get yourself to the the best condition possible in the circumstances that we all live in, which are highly stressful, you know, environment issues and all the rest. So, yeah. No, I mean, I completely agree. It's such a balance between science and like something else. When you say something else, you mean like just the unexplainable who knows, like who

knows why some people, because like you say, it's like it's not even, the reality is it's not, you know, I'm saying like people can look after themselves, but I know people that are the peak of like health, you know, and they look after themselves so well and they still, they're struggling to conceive and it's one of those areas that's for, that's why it's so triggering for a lot of people because there's often no rhyme or reason behind it. Yes, exactly. So, you know, I'll catch myself going down like a rabbit hole of being like, oh, maybe we've been trying for a couple months and it didn't stick. And then I'm just like, you know what, I'm not going to go there. Like, I can control my own thoughts and there's just no point in going there because also for me there's there isn't an urgency

Like just because you made up your mind to start trying like allowing some space to not be successful right away in it is okay Yeah, that's so important because I think when people make that decision that they're going to try then suddenly Everything zeros in on that one thing. And then I think the more that happens, the more pressure you put, the more stress you're putting on yourself. And yet it can become a bit of a, yeah, a tricky one. I think it can become like all consuming. I've seen it become all consuming. And I'm just like, even a year year ago I wasn't even

sure if I wanted to do this. So why could and I could see it doing that for me. I could see it being like okay like it's my fertile window like but I'm just like I want to focus on the joy of this time that you know I am married three years. I'm in this happy place in life and I don't want to spend this place being sad. I want to spend this place being like joyful and I think that that like creating that little bit of like joyous magic and joyous environment can only help the experience. So 100% yeah I love that. For anyone that's kind of listening to this, that is at a similar phase of balancing their business, but thinking about motherhood, like do you have any advice that you'd want to share? Yes, oh my gosh, well, let's talk

because I also need advice, but. Yeah. But I think it's that exactly what we were saying, where there really is no perfect time and that don't feel like a new chapter will end this one. And I finally have gotten to that phase where I don't think that this new chapter will end this one. And I'm glad that I came to that realization.

That is so powerful. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you. No, I'm so glad that I had a chance to talk. Yeah, thank you for sharing your story. I think like I said at the beginning, it's something that a lot of our audience are going to be on a similar journey to and relate to. So thank you. I appreciate it. Oh my gosh. I'm so happy too. And and I'm really gonna honestly order some like fertility stuff Because I think it's amazing Yeah, I'm I've been looking for you know Something like this so I'm so glad and like I said, I'm a huge fan of the podcast and it's helped me through

you know very challenging times in my life and huge changes in my own Saturn return and very challenging times in my life and huge changes in my own Saturn return. And so I'm just so thankful for what you do. Oh, thank you. That means a lot. Truly, that really means a lot. So I just wanted to say a big thank you to both Elizabeth's for coming on the show and for sharing their experience. I also really, as in a few things I enjoy more than sitting down with my community and having that sort of chat with them because I don't know it feels like we

already know each other and that's the beauty of Saturn Returns and what we've all created together so I just wanted to say a big thank you. And also if you're listening to this and fertility is something that's on your mind because I feel like it is for a lot of people whether you're planning to have children someday or want to conceive now or trying to balance the dreams of motherhood with your career I think understanding what's actually happening in your body can make all the difference and Hattilites at home hormone andility Test give you the clinical grade results from the comfort of your own home. It gives you

insights into your egg count and the results are broken down in a way that actually makes sense with actionable next steps. Often there is comfort in conversation as we know from doing this podcast. So if you are looking to speak to someone about your results or guidance on your next steps, you can book a call with one of Hattilites in-house experts, Hattilites advisors. So get the insights that you need into your body and take back control. And I hope that this episode has brought you some comfort and some information and we'll put a link to some articles below if you guys want to delve a little bit deeper.

And also the episode we did with Dr. Helen O'Neill that is hugely informative and she is such a wonder. I just adore her as a person and she is just doing such wonderful things in the world. So thank you Helen for creating Hattility and for supporting women the way that you do. If you guys are interested in getting a Hattility home kit you can head to hattilityhealth.com and use the code KAAGI10 for £10 off your first order. Thank you very much Attaliti for making this episode possible and for connecting us in this way. And as always remember, you are not alone. Thank you so much for listening.