Saturn Returns with Caggie - Owen O'Kane: Are You Addicted to Anxiety Without Even Realising It?

Episode Date: April 21, 2025

In this powerful episode of Saturn Returns, Caggie welcomes Owen O’Kane, renowned psychotherapist, former NHS clinical lead, and author of Addicted to Anxiety. With dual training in both medicine and psychotherapy, Owen offers a fresh, compassionate, and deeply insightful look into the nature of anxiety - and why so many of us unknowingly become addicted to it. Owen’s journey began in Belfast during the Troubles, where anxiety became a necessary survival mechanism. He later transitioned from palliative care to psychotherapy, bringing a unique blend of medical knowledge and emotional intelligence to his work. His new book challenges the way we think about anxiety, urging us not to fight it, but to understand and rewire it. Topics Covered in This Episode: 🪐 How anxiety becomes habitual—and even addictive 🪐 The link between early conditioning, family systems, and anxious thinking 🪐 The mind's ability to heal and rewire itself 🪐 Practical tools to self-soothe, ground, and manage anxious patterns 🪐 The impact of social media and misinformation on mental health 🪐 Why anxiety isn't something to get rid of—but to live with in harmony 🪐 Embracing courage, risk, and vulnerability to live more freely Whether you struggle with anxiety daily or feel stuck in negative thought loops, this episode is your reminder that you're not broken - just human. Owen’s gentle wisdom and grounded advice will leave you feeling more equipped to face your inner world with clarity, calm, and compassion. — Thank you to our sponsor, Naturalmat, for making this episode possible! Better sleep starts naturally ☁️ Naturalmat’s handcrafted, organic mattresses and bedding are good for you, your family, and the planet. Experience the comfort of sustainable sleep at naturalmat.co.uk, or visit one of their showrooms! If you enjoyed this conversation, don’t forget to follow Saturn Returns for more episodes exploring wellness, spirituality, and personal development. Share this episode with someone who could use a little extra joy in their life, or take a moment to comment and share your thoughts. Your feedback means so much and helps us reach more listeners! Discover more from Saturn Returns: 🪐 Instagram, YouTube and TikTok 🪐 Order the Saturn Returns book: Click here 🪐 Join our community newsletter: Sign up here 🪐 Explore all things Saturn Returns: Visit our website 🪐Follow Caggie on Instagram: @caggiesworld

Before we dive into today's episode, I want to take a moment to talk about something that's really, really important to me. Sleep. We all know how crucial a good night's rest is, but have you ever thought about how your sleep environment affects both your health and the planet? That is where Naturalmat comes in. From the very beginning, they prioritise sustainability by using certified organic materials like locally sourced organic wool. Their mattresses and bedding aren't just better for you, they're better for the environment too. And everything is handmade with care and craftsmanship in their Devon workshop. So if you want to improve your sleep while making a positive impact on the planet, I highly recommend visiting naturalmap.co.uk. Heading to one of their showrooms, trust me, switching to a natural, sustainable sleep setup makes all the difference.

Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. Today's guest is someone who brings both clinical clarity and compassionate wisdom to the conversation around mental health, Owen O'Kane. A former NHS clinical lead with dual training in medicine and psychotherapy, Owen has an extraordinary ability to simplify the complex and bring calm to the chaos of the modern mind. Owen grew up in Belfast during the Troubles, shaped by conflict, religion, and repression,

a deeply formative environment, especially as a young gay man navigating identity and belonging. And these early experiences became the root of his lifelong dedication to understanding human suffering and more importantly, how to move through it. He's the best-selling author of How to Be Your Own Therapist and his new book Addicted to Anxiety explores a powerful idea that many of us are unknowingly habitualizing our anxiety. We repeat thoughts and behaviors that temporarily soothe us but ultimately keep us stuck.

thoughts and behaviors that temporarily soothe us but ultimately keep us stuck. And in this episode we explore why anxiety can feel so addictive, how it often stems from family systems and early conditioning, and why self-reassurance and adaptive thinking are crucial tools in today's world. How can we rewire our minds to live with greater freedom and ease? we rewire our minds to live with greater freedom and ease. Owen's work is rooted in science drawing from CBT, mindfulness and interpersonal therapy but it's also full of heart. His message is clear, you are not broken, you're just wired in a way that once served you and that can be changed. This is a powerful conversation for anyone navigating anxiety, overwhelm, identity or a desire to come back home to themselves. Let's dive in.

Well Owen, welcome to Saturn Return. Thank you. Thanks for having me. How are you? I'm good, really good. I say I'm good, I am knackered.'m good. I am. I'm knackered. Yeah. Because I'm busy. You and me both. I'm a bit knackered. Because you know, it's two things. I've got this, got the book coming and I'm involved in a documentary thing that I can't really talk about, but it's taken up a lot of time. Busy time for you. Which is brilliant. And the two have

kind of gone together. I wasn't really planning that to happen and I've got clients and. You're still working with clients? They'll see clients. Yeah, I'll never that to happen. I've got clients and... You're still working with clients? Still see clients. Yeah, I'll never give that up. That's part of the job that I love. So that's kind of non-negotiable. I'll always stick with you. I think you have to in this job. If you're up in the hotel. Do you know when you wake up, it was like seven o'clock or something and I woke up and I had to be somewhere at half seven and I genuinely didn't know where I was. Yeah, yeah. You know that feeling? I kind of like that feeling though, it's a bit disorientating at first. I knew it was in the hotel but I get out of bed and I thought, well I don't know where

the bathroom is and then secondly I just thought, I genuinely don't know what city. Yeah, I think that's great. So it's a bit like that at the minute. So yeah, and for the audience that might not be familiar with your work, would you be able to give a little bit of a background as to who you are and the work that you do and how you got into it? In a nutshell, right. Where do I start? I guess probably a good place to start is in the work I do.

So I'm a psychotherapist, that's my core trait. But prior to that, I was a palliative care specialist. So I had a psychotherapist. That's my core trait. But prior to that, I was a palliative care specialist. So I had a bit of a change. My career has been split into health and psychology. So did the palliative care work for about 10 years, which I loved. After a number of years doing that, I realized I wasn't really skilled to deal with a psychological aspect of people dying. You weren't trained in it. You didn't feel... Yeah. You can do all the medical stuff and medications and treatments and all of that,

but you were often having really difficult conversations both with the patient and family and it was never part of your training, ever. That astounds me. And the trust I was working for at the time in the NHS, they were given options to go off and do a Masters and I said I'd love to do one in psychotherapy and they turned it down because they said it's not relevant to the work it needs to be more medical. I was really deflated because I thought I'd love to do a masters in therapy but they were adamant it wasn't going to happen they wanted something much more clinical. So coincidentally when it was rejected the head of education at the time and the trust I was working for came after me one day

and she said I think you should appeal that decision. But this is off the record. You know, I didn't tell you this, but if you've got evidence that being trained as a psychotherapist will enhance your work, I think you should appeal it. She said, all you have to do is write 2000 words, give them the evidence. So anyway, long story short, I did. I've got nothing to lose. And they overturned the decision and I went off then and retrained to do my psychotherapy training and loved it. Like from day one, I kind of felt, I mean, I've loved everything I've done in my career. I've been really fortunate, but I really felt, oh, this is the right time. I wouldn't have been ready to train as a therapist in my early twenties because I was still working out my own stuff.

And I think, you know, the older you get, you do start to get a bit of wisdom and a bit of cop on really. And I kind of thought when I started training as a therapist and I thought, I mean, you start off thinking you've got it all together. What did you love most about the training? It really makes you look at yourself, like properly makes you evaluate your own life and how you are. So you have to have your own therapy as part of therapy training. And you sort of go in thinking I'm pretty polished and sorted and then by the month you're like fucking hell, that's a myth. And you have to start looking at your own life and who you are. So you kind of turn yourself upside down really and start to get to know yourself much better and quite

truthfully as well. So that part of it I love, but then you see the power of the work. People think that therapy is just a nice little chat and a cup of tea and it's actually not, it's a complete reconstruction of your life, your behaviours, the choices you make. It's a very action based process. You're disrupting people's patterns the whole time. You've been very active with them. action based process. You're disrupting people's patterns the whole time. You've been very active with them. Well, good therapy is, you know,

good therapy should not feel lovely and nice and sweet. You should feel uncomfortable and you should want to tell your therapist to fuck off at times because otherwise they're not activating stuff and you that needs challenging. So anyway, I got really into the work, loved the work, did that for a long time, kind of started doing more therapy work in the NHS, climbed the ladder, was a clinical lead for mental health in the NHS. And then I'd really nowhere else to go. And I kind of thought, what am I going to do next? Will I go into like policy making?

And I thought, oh God, no, I mean, that's just like the worst possible thing for me. It's kind of like the graveyard of your career, you know, when you start doing stuff that's not right for you. And then just this random opportunity, I started doing a bit more private work, started doing talks and one of the first talks I did was in the BBC in London. And I was talking about a concept where you take 10 minutes out of your day for better mental wellbeing. And I'd created it into a concept about how do you quieten the mind? How do you level out? How do you manage some of the difficult stuff that goes on?

And I created this concept. And when I was teaching it, someone come up and said, you really need to write a book. What was the concept? Well, the concept was how do you use 10 minutes in your day for better mental wellbeing, so rather than just stopping to breathe or stopping to take 10 minutes out, I created a program that was laying out really the 10 minutes from minute zero to 10. How do you deactivate the threat in your mind?

How do you quieten the noise? How do you reframe difficult emotions, difficult thoughts? So I created a program basically 10 minutes a day. They said, we're going to introduce you to a publisher, which they did. Didn't hear anything for about a year and literally about a year later, get a phone call one day from this publisher. Now you've got a context here, I knew nothing about publishing books, had never done anything at all, public profile, all my career been in the NHS. So they called me up and said, well, you come in and pitch your book tomorrow. And I was like, didn't even know what that meant. I mean, this is the kind I'd never pitched for

anything. I'd always just done my job. So they said, can you just bring your title and the core idea in? So my other half said to me, what's the title? And I said, I have no idea. I said, well, he said, what is it? And I said, well, it's 10 minutes out of your day is what I'm teaching. And I said, what are you hoping to give them in 10 minutes? I said, oh, he said, what is it? And I said, well, it's 10 minutes out of your day is what I'm teaching. And I said, what are you hoping to give them in 10 minutes? I said, oh, I just want to make people a bit more Zen and chilled. And then suddenly it was like there are 10 to Zen. So anyway, the book happened, the book came out and there were just these incredible, I mean, talk about serendipity or coincidences, it was just this incredible alignment where I met an agent

then just before I was about to sign a contract for the book. He then said, have you signed your contract? I want to introduce you to other people. So in terms of where we are today with that, because obviously that kind of put you on this path that you didn't really anticipate. Yeah. And the book that's come out recently. It did all these, it did two other books and then the opportunity came to do this fourth book. Why did you want to do this one? Because I've always wanted to write a book on anxiety, a proper book on anxiety and I

didn't want to write a, there's a lot of stuff out there and there's a lot of conversations about anxiety but I've been brutally honest, I think there's a lot of fluffy, very dust, cliché takes on anxiety. Like what? I think it's just like, cure your anxiety in a day. I don't know if that's a book, but there's that sort of, you know, there's a lot of false promises around heal your anxiety, cure your anxiety. Do you think there's, sorry to interrupt you, but do you think there's a misconception as to what anxiety is?

Because I think people have perhaps different versions of it or because, you know, in the last, I would say probably five years, suddenly become part of our vocabulary in a way that just it really wasn't before. I think there's a general sense. I think people are more anxious in general. So I think in my work, I haven't

probably, I see more anxiety now than I've ever done in my career. So it's definitely, I think it's the epidemic of this generation, 100%. Every client I have, there's some degree of anxiety in the presentation. Every talk I go to when people come up afterwards, the key questions are always about anxiety. My husband's anxious, my kids are anxious. It's right across the board. And why do you think that is? I think it's a mix of things. I think that we live in a more uncertain world. I think there is still a degree of that post-pandemic residual hangover. I think there's a lot of pressure. I think the economy is unstable. There have been wars. We're talking about it more now.

So people have got command of language where they're able to make sense of it a bit more. And I think, you know, for some people it might be more clinically diagnostic type anxiety and for other people it just might be a general feeling of unease or just not feeling comfortable. But I do think by and large, a lot of people are struggling more than they would have done. But I guess for me, there is a differentiation between, you know, having a bad day doesn't mean that you have an anxiety disorder. You know, we're meant to be anxious some of the time and we're meant to be a bit stressed. That can be healthy. So in a way, we're reacting in a normal way to an unstable. We're reacting to a normal mechanism, but sometimes in a very exaggerated way.

And that's the problem with anxiety. And I guess that's what formed the title of the book. So I do believe people get addicted to not anxiety in itself, but to the process of anxiety. Talk to me about that. Well, I think anxiety, I don't see anxiety like a, and this is it, I guess where I differ to perhaps where some people, the heart, some people talk about anxiety, I don't see it as like this physiological mechanism, as something just happening to you. I see it as a part of people, like a scared part of themselves that often comes

up and it'll present in different ways and that can be through the way they think, it can be through the emotions, it can be through the body, it can be through behaviors. You can't really treat anxiety like you were treating a kidney or a lung. It's different for everyone. It's very different for everyone and it's nuanced and it almost has a personality within itself. So the anxious self, your anxious self will sound and be experienced very differently to mine, but it's a very, very real part of self. And I guess what I've discovered over the years is that when you ask most people how they feel about their anxiety, they have

a really negative, I've never, to be honest, I've never met anyone who said, I feel really good about it or I like it. Because it's an uncomfortable feeling, but the actual mechanism is really well intended. Anxiety is there to keep you safe, to protect you. So it's really well intended. So most people form a negative relationship with the anxious part of themselves because it doesn't feel comfortable. But actually you're forming a negative relationship with a part of self that is actually really useful.

So it's about creating a new relationship with the anxiety, getting to know it, getting to understand it, reframing it and actually developing a whole new way of living with anxiety. So for me, I guess it's never about, I never claim that you will get rid of anxiety. You won't unless you die. That's the only time we're not going to be anxious. So most people are going to have some degree of anxiety most of their life. So it's about, okay, how do you live comfortably with anxiety? How do you integrate it into your life? How do you navigate it?

How do you kind of negotiate with it? So that when you're aware that it comes up and it's part of your experience, you can think, I know exactly what this is and I know how to manage it. And I know how to negotiate with it. So it's part of your experience. You can think, I know exactly what this is and I know how to manage it and I know how to negotiate with it. So it's a... And how do you do that? Well, it's about that.

I mean, the book starts off really by getting to know. You need to you need to understand your anxiety. You need to know what that looks like for you. So, you know, look, the probably the best way I can describe it is my own anxiety was very I mean, I didn't know I had anxiety when I was younger. I grew up in Belfast during the Troubles. Horrendous, like really, really traumatic stuff. I wouldn't have used that language back then.

You just grew up, all of the bombs and bullets and the awfulness was happening on a day to day basis really. And you know, on top of that, I was a a gay kid in a very working class area, a lot of bullying, my family weren't rich. I don't want it to sound like a pure me story because it wasn't at all. There was also a lot of love and a lot of great people around. But it wasn't easy, but the entire time my anxiety mechanism was, as were most people's at that time, highly charged and fired up because it had to be. And actually without anxiety during that time,

you would have got into situations that were dangerous or potentially life threatening. So actually, looking back on it now, my anxiety was actually part of a really, really important survival mechanism. But I wouldn't have known that it was anxiety. All I knew was that there was a heightened sense of fear all of the time that became very normal. And it was only then when I left for London and kind of built a new life and went away and it's rebuild a new life. Then suddenly I noticed I was reacting to things that nobody else in my circle was reacting to. So a car would backfire and I would jump or my other half would like take the piss and say, why are you triple checking

that the doors are locked? Why do you need to make sure that that's been done correctly? And just been more hyper vigilant than on guard because that was the norm back then. So my anxiety followed with me, which is true for most people based on story, background, traumas, whatever has happened in their lives. The anxiety will follow with them. But of course, as an adult living a new life in London where I'm not in danger anymore, the mechanism doesn't know that. The anxious self doesn't know that. So I then got to know my own anxious self and then you discover it presents by

overthinking, overanalyzing, catastrophizing, what if. So that's what it can sound like in the mind. The emotions then come and it's never a singular emotion. So it's like, I say like anxiety has many in-laws. So there'd be anxiety, there'd be fear, there'd be dread. Yeah, I was going to say how connected is it with fear? I wanted to share something with you that's made a huge difference in my sleep quality. Natural map. If you're anything like me, you care about what goes into your sleep environment. After all, it's where we spend a third of our lives. That's why I

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and attention to detail in their Devon workshop. If you want a sleep experience that's better for you and better for the planet, head over to naturalmat.co.uk or visit one of their showrooms for a healthier, more sustainable night's sleep. I mean they're directly linked and there's always contextual stuff around it. Fear tends to ramp up a bit more dramatically and can be a bit more, you know, people talk about being, they freeze with fear. Fear can literally bring a person to that point of feeling like they're stuck or they literally freeze because it just becomes too big. The brain will almost shut down because it's too overwhelmed. But then there can be dread. There can be sadness. There can be exhaustion. So it brings a lot of other emotions with it.

So, you know, my work is about helping people to tune in to what's going on in your mind, what's going on in the emotional state, what behaviours then play out. So again, this is where it gets really interesting for me. When you talk to people about how you manage your anxiety, you know, they'll talk about everything. I meditate, I'm doing yoga, I'm doing Pilates, I'm doing breathing work, go for a swim every morning, I'm doing cold plunges, I'm in therapy, all of them brilliant, I'm not knocking any of them. But when I ask people why are you doing all of that in relation to your anxiety, 100% of people will say to get rid of my anxiety. And I guess I think that's where my approach probably varies differently because the getting rid of your anxiety is abandoning part of self.

It's never about getting rid of your anxiety. Just trying to kind of outrun it with these healthy habits. Well, most people, it's not even trying to outrun it. It's about trying to literally get rid of it, push it down. You know, when you start to ask people when you're doing seminars and stuff, you know, if you had one word that summarises how you feel about your anxiety, I mean, you hear it all the time. It's just like, Yeah, because in terms of talking about the spectrum of anxiety and where people land on that, I'd say I'm someone that it's more of a catastrophising and overthinking, a spiralling

of thoughts that's unmeasured to the reality of the situation, that I can get myself into quite a state. And I also definitely relate to feeling addicted to anxiety, because it's almost like becomes something that then you use as a driving force. But there's probably plenty of other things that would be a lot healthier, equally motivating. But it becomes, and I think as well in a city like London and in, you know, the realms of social media where it's like, you can use all of those things to contribute to it. Yeah. And it becomes like a sort of a fuel. Yeah. Well,

it becomes almost like a fix as well. Yeah. I mean, I love how you've described it because I think, I mean, when you think about addiction in itself And I'm under no illusion like people in the addiction community will probably say it's not an addiction And I say well read the book. I never say it's an addiction in itself But you get addicted to the process and they're two very different things And it's not like you don't run it onto the street corner looking for your fix of anxiety, you know It's not it's not that you're not looking for a fix But if you think of addiction most people get get addicted to booze, drugs, whatever, food,

sex, shopping, whatever the context may be. They get addicted because they're trying to numb, they're trying to soothe, they're trying to get away from pain. Generally, that's the core essence of addiction. But if you look at anxiety, anxiety promises to keep you safe. It promises to protect you. The catastrophizing, the worrying means that I'm going to get you ready should this go wrong. The hypervigilance.

Yeah, I'm going to stop you failing. I'm going to stop you making the fool out of yourself. I'm going to make sure this works okay for you. So that promise of, you know, protection and safety is really, really, it's quite alluring and it's quite tantalising. And most people don't think of it as addictive, they just think of it, okay, well, that's just me, that's just who I am. But the interesting, I tell a story in the book, and it's probably worth sharing this here that the kind of title for this book, the addiction to, addict, I can't even remember

the title to my own book, what's it called? Addicted to Anxiety. The title actually came years ago. Well, it's sort of the notion came years ago, the title followed. But I was teaching an anxiety group in the NHS and these were 12, 16 people who had been around the block. They tried every therapy. They'd been to see people. My psychiatrist I was working with at the time knew I had a particular interest in anxiety and trauma. You know, if I'm being brutally honest, that was my early experience, anxiety and trauma. So it's no surprise that that's where I've ended up doing this work because I believe passionately in the importance of helping people find a way forward and freedom

and reclaiming their life. I think that, you know, if I talk about what's my mission in life or what's my passion and my drive, that's, I think that's how I operate. But I was running this group and about eight weeks into the program, I mean, they were hilarious. I mean, they were really resistant. The beginning, they were all a bit hopeless. This is all bullshit. Tried this, tried that, didn't work. Long story short, we got about eight weeks into the program and they were all starting to improve in different ways. And there was real banter starting to occur in the group and there was camaraderie and you could just feel the lightness in the group as the weeks evolved.

And then about eight weeks in, one day I said to them, God, I really noticed a huge improvement in the group. And honestly, it was just, you wouldn't have heard a pin drop because they just all went really quiet and like fear literally moved into the room. Why? Well, it was fascinating because I was intrigued and I thought, God, this is interesting because I was given really positive affirmative feedback and it just landed like a lead balloon. Of course, as you do as a therapist, you're always curious and interested. And I said, God, I'm wondering what's going on.

You've all gone a bit quiet. And this one guy in the group who he'd been a previous drug addict and recovered, but had residual anxiety post his addiction. And he started to laugh and he said, I'm an ex-druggy. And he said, I thought giving up coke was hard. He said, this is a fucking nightmare. And then everyone in the group laughed. Yeah, because they all felt the same. They got it. I also got it as someone who knows things that I also got what he was saying. And I said, what do you mean by that? And he said, he said, the minute you said we're improving, he said, and I know that he said,

because I feel better, he said, but I know that he said, because I feel better, he said, but I feel terrified of letting it go. And then he then joked and he said, it's almost like I'm addicted to anxiety. And I remember at that time, now at that point, I wasn't thinking about books or anything at all. But I remember the seed was there in my head about the addictive component of anxiety. And I've always believed that whole heartedly to be true. So I guess really with this book, what I didn't want to do was like, I could have done a fluffy false promises, you know, heal your anxiety in a month or whatever, or, you know, end anxiety forever.

You know, there are promises out there about endings, getting over it, never having it again, that They're false promises because anxiety will be a part of your life no matter who or what you are. If you're prone to anxiety, it's probably always going to be something that you're working with. But I guess the good news in it for me is that when you form a different relationship with your anxiety, you understand that and you get to know it and you actually go towards it. So most people's actions are about not feeling it, getting rid of it, pushing it away. When you go the other direction, that's where I see breakthroughs all of the time.

When you lean into it. Yeah, when you just allow it to be and think, okay, you know, this part of me is here at the moment. I'm going to allow it to be and I'm going to be curious about what it may be. Because if you think of it, it's there to help. So it's a signpost, it's a guide, it's trying to regulate you, it's not trying to harm you. So you start to then reframe it and see it in that way. Then when it does come in, you think, oh, this is, I know exactly what it is. I mean, I did a talk the other day for my publisher.

I'm sure you know what this is like. And I do gigs all the time. I do talks and workshops and festivals and the works. And I always get anxious. Always. Some degree of healthy anxiety, you're going out there in front of hundreds of people and you're being watched and they're

listening to what you're saying. So it's a healthy degree of anxiety. But I went in to do a talk the other day from my publisher about addicted anxiety, and I suddenly became aware just before I went in, because a lot of people turned up. And I thought, oh, God, this is my thought. It's going to be like 10, 12 people. And there's a whole room full of people, much more than I expected.

And I could hear my anxiety, like literally just popping in for a little visit and I could hear the thoughts. What if you forget? What if you sound stupid? What if this is bullshit? What if you dry up? Oh my God, look at how many people are here. And then I could start to feel the physiological sensations in my body. And what I've learned to do when that happens is I know exactly what's happening to me and I know the feeling in my body. And what I've learned to do when that happens is I know exactly what's happening to me and I know the feeling in my body.

I know the essence of anxiety. It doesn't feel like me. It feels like that part of me is moved in to protect me. But what I do now is rather than just kind of panic and think, Oh, I need to get rid of it or where's the rescue remedy or, you know, people grab for anything, won't they try and get rid of it? I just kind of think, all right, I get this. So this is like this little fella that lives within me

that gets a little bit worked up, went out of a comfort zone or something different. So I bring the part with me. I like that. I had a couple of questions for you from a personal standpoint, because I was at a dinner for my friend's book launch a few months ago,

and she got everyone to go around the table and she said, I want people to be really, really honest and say what they are addicted to. Oh, wow. And I remember thinking about it and answering that I felt like I was addicted to chaos, which is probably not what people would think because... Yeah, because you're quite... I don't think about that. You're quite familiar, aren't you? Quite chill.

And I'm like, you know, I used to be very wild when I was younger, but now I'm not at all. So it kind of is like, you don't seem that chaotic. But actually, after when I heard about your book and your work, I was like, what I really meant was I'm addicted to anxiety because it's all the chaos upstairs and those ruminating thoughts and those like questioning everything. And I noticed with myself that

when something actually feels, so I'll be really honest in my relationship, when that has got to a point where it's like stable, loving, secure, that part of my brain goes, what's wrong? What's wrong? When's the other shoe going to drop and just like goes into this kind of complete spinny outy like, and it's like, if I'm not on high alert, I'm going to miss something. Get it. If I'm not on high alert, I'm going to miss something. If I miss something, I'm going to be really badly hurt. Yeah. So I'm going to be hyper vigilant, like what is going on, but it's exhausting. Absolutely.

And if you think of the price tag that comes with that, that means then that you kind of do lose part of the joy. Totally. Of that period when you're like, everything's going good. Yeah. You're not allowing yourself to just be happy. Yeah. And people lose it.

I had a client the other week I was working with, who's been good. Yeah. You're not allowing yourself to just be happy. Yeah. And people lose it. I had a client the other week I was working with who's been anxious for years. And again, starting to recover doing really well, getting her life back, going for it, applied for a promotion, got it. Relationships going brilliantly, traveling again, which hadn't done for years. And then she came into me a few weeks ago and she said, um, really weird thing happened. She said, I woke up, sat on my bed and she said, I wake up every morning and have done for years with knots on my stomach, just a morning angsty knot to my stomach. She described it brilliantly. And she said, I get out of bed and she said, I didn't have the knot in my stomach. And she said, I sat in the bed and I

almost panicked looking for the knot. And she said, and she really couldn't find it. And she said, she actually felt quite calm and quite chilled and genuinely felt quite confident and at ease. And it was such an unusual feeling. And so far from the anxiety that she found herself looking to almost get back. And I said, what get back where? And she said, get back to a place of safety. I thought, God, what a brilliant description, because that's the promise of anxiety.

That it will keep you safe. It will keep you safe, but with a massive price tag. Whereas actually the going the other way and trusting that it's all, you know, it will evolve as it should. Your relationship will evolve as it should. Regardless of whether you catastrophize or try and control it. Because this is what we all do. You know, we either cling on to all the old stuff for dear life and won't let it go, or we resist what's coming next because we think we have to control it. When the bottom line is like what's been's been and whatever is going to come next, we

have zero control over. So it is like, I know it is literally that letting go, but it's also trusting as well. It's like the evidence in the neuroscience and the psychology research tells us like about 90% of stuff that you worry about in your lifetime will never come to any fruition. I'm the same for my life. And even the stuff that might become a bit more real or threatening, even that when you break it down and look at it, none of it's ever as awful or catastrophic as you imagine. So actually. But that's when it feels silly and like an invasion because you, I'll give you another example. So, and you know, you were saying about that woman waking up like I at the moment, not always, but I have been waking up like four in the morning and worrying

about things. Yeah, really common. Yeah, exactly. Incredibly common. And it's things that at the time, in the sort of midnight hours, feel like things that are worthy of feeling super panicked. And then kind of in the light of day, like, I just have to send an email. Do you know what I mean?

Or I have to just respond to that person. It's not that big a deal. So that's one thing that I would like, because I'm sure you've come across that a million times. How can people kind of remedy that particular piece? I mean, look, if you recognise it, I mean, that is such a common thing where people wake up and it is like it's normally known as like the three o'clock in the morning syndrome. Not a thing.

It's not a psychology theory, but you often hear that bandied around that people do wake up three or four o'clock in the morning, starting to kind of worry. And it's kind of for a lot of people, the only time in the day where they've got a bit of space to kind of think about, okay, well, there's no kids or there's no responsibilities or there's no emails or phones ringing and then there's like, oh, well, I'm awake anyway, so I might as well. So the anxious, the anxious self will drop in for a cup of tea and say, well, might as well as well get to work.

And I guess again, if you can spot that that's what's happening. And again, you know, you look at the list of worries, there's a, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy, they use a thing called worry time. And if you were to list, you know, the things that you're worrying about at four o'clock in the morning, for most people, if you said, okay, give me the top 10 worries that have come up for you, they'll be able to give you them really quickly. And then you say to them, okay, well, what at four o'clock in the morning could you have done about any of those worries?

Most people say absolutely nothing. Actually not even at four o'clock in the morning. Most of them are like, actually, well, there isn't an immediate solution to our immediate resolution. So it is that ability to recognize, okay, well, this isn't in my power control at the minute. So it's okay to park up. It's not denying the worry or it's not trying to repress it or push it away. It's okay. At this moment in time, this isn't in my control. So that kind of ease and burden by kind of saying, okay, I'm acknowledging the worry. push it away. It's OK at this moment in time, this isn't in my control.

So that kind of ease and burden by kind of saying, OK, I'm acknowledging the worry because I think when you start to push down, deny, fight, all of that stuff, it'll just come back stronger. So you kind of give the anxiety its place and say, OK, you've created that worry and you've created that story. We hate you. Acknowledge. Thanks for that. But that isn't for now. So you're kind of at that scale. And then apart from doing that practically, I think then you can almost sit and be with

that anxious part of self. And this is going to sound crazy, but you're having a conversation with that part because everyone, every human being I've ever met in my career and even in my personal life, we all have that part of us, it's strong. We have wisdom and we have insight and we have steadiness. Every, every one of us have it. The problem is we then pile stuff on top and it's hard to get access to it, but it's there for everyone. So what you're trying to do is access that part of self so that what you're doing all of the time is that you're moving.

What I would say is if you wake up at four o'clock in the morning, you've got all of this stuff going on. Your only priority is to move from chaos to stability. So you're making that an option. So this is not about resolutions. This is not about solutions. This is not about finding an answer at four in the morning. Your only priority is, okay, I'd rather move from my chaotic self across to my more functional, steady way self. And that's very easy to do. You know, it's just about slowing down those. I mean, it depends on context on what you like and stuff, but that, you know, you've kind of heard of grounding techniques and stuff, you know, where people literally ground. But for me, it's about, you know, sometimes

people can't breathe, you know, they find the breathing stuff difficult. Well, if you're not into the breathing, just repeat, repeat a phrase over and over and over again. I often say all is well and from this moment only good shall come. Yeah. And, you know, and leave it at that because the brain will only take command at a time. Have I said to you at the minute, think of an elephant. You'll think of an elephant. So you're in charge of the brain. It's not in charge of you in that moment because you're you're giving it a direction. So like something really simple like that, just repeating, I'm safe, I'm calm, or whatever the context may be. You're giving the brain an activity outside of worrying.

breathing techniques or steadying techniques or whatever works for you, then by all means use it. But I think it's also about that surrendering. And this is probably my most important point, that when the anxiety moves in, you can be aware that I hate this feeling, I don't like it, how can I get rid of this? Why the fuck am I feeling this way again? All of that might be going on. But if you can surrender to the fact, okay, you're here. I know you're here. I'm not going to fight with you. I'm not going to wrestle you. I'm going to allow you to come in and I'm going to accept that you're here with good intentions. I'm going to allow you to be immediately like honestly, and I see this every day in clinical practice. You just see people's shoulders drop. They're not working They're not wrestling with themselves.

They're not wrestling with themselves and they're not wrestling with a part of self. They're allowing it to be. So suddenly there isn't that conflict and all. What about, and you must have come across this quite a lot because it very much ties into addiction, people that will use substances or things to fuel the anxiety. That might be their phones. I think that's a really common one that because it's relatively new, we're not really aware of how much that's actually causing more anxiety. So it's like the anxiety is there and rather than doing all the things we just talked about, you in fact have these habits that pile on more anxiety that you think are helping you but they're not and for me I am guilty for me it's coffee that is like...

So it's stimulus? Yeah so it's like I'll get up and I'll be like I'm already anxious about all these work things I have to do and then my brain will go well go have a coffee and you'll feel more anxious but you'll get them all done and it's like I, I know that it's going to make me feel worse. But you sort of... I almost, I'm like, I could copy to go get it. Like it's really, it's very bizarre. And my partner's always like,

seems to be a correlation between how anxious you feel and how much coffee you're having. And I'm like... But it's fascinating that you bring, I mean, the coffee is a really, it's a common one, alcohol. Alcohol, exactly. I mean, people take a drink, I mean, it's a that you bring, I mean, the coffee is a really, you know, it's a common one, alcohol is the same. Alcohol, exactly. I mean, people take a drink, I mean, it's a really classic thing.

I know so many people have a glass of wine in the evening and then I feel so much better. And they feel more anxious than they do. I mean, that's really, I mean, I'm sure you've heard this before, but we've got things called GABA receptors. And they help regulate, you know, various things, but actually with anxiety, what they do is so you take a glass away and it takes the edge off. So you get increased GABA receptors, which just basically slows down that threat response mechanism. So of course you naturally feel less threat. The problem is it's like a pendulum swing then the next day. The receptors are a bit more depleted, so there's less of them. Yeah. So then you get the opposite effect. So it's always, there's always about this equilibrium and balance. Social media, you've mentioned, we know that when you're scrolling on social

media for most people, the first couple of minutes, they'll get a dopamine spike. So it sort of has the same effect. You can get the high, don't you? You get that sense of, oh, I just look to see what's going on on Instagram. It's distracted. They get, you get distracted. You're away from your work, you're away from your world for a bit. But then what they know for most people is after a few moments of scrolling, that you normally then get a dip in dopamine.

Because if you think of the content that we look at, the contents activate. Now, this is I heard someone talking about this a while back, actually, and I did it myself. And look, I'm not the biggest. I do Instagram. But I mean, even when I say I do Instagram, I mean, I've been on it a few years, didn't know what a hashtag was a few years ago. So that's the level I'm at. But I built a nice little community up there and I use it to do my work in various pits and bobs. Conflicted relationship with it, but I try and use it for what it is, which is just the core essence of the work I'm doing.

I try not to get over involved in any of the other stuff, but I'm a human being. And I go on it sometimes and you're scrolling through and you look at the post and then suddenly it starts off nice and you see a few little lovely quotes or a funny video and stuff. And then you see someone on there and they're talking about something or they're bragging about their life and you think, f***ing hell. And then you just then notice that it's starting to activate stuff. Or then you see something, somebody on there and they may be lying about something or pretending about something, you think, that isn't true.

Why are they saying that? And then you just notice this spiral of reactions to the content that you're seeing. And then there's people that we naturally will react to that wind us up or you think, why has he got us top off again? All of these things that we do, and we all do, we're human beings, we judge.

So what's happening the whole time is there's, and we all do it, we're human beings, we judge. So what's happening the whole time is there's this whole dialogue going on between what we're seeing. Which we're not really that consciously aware of. No, we're not aware of. And then the next minute there'll be like out of nowhere there'll be like a puppy farm and a dog being tortured. It's like, that's my day over when I see that. I was like, oh my God, that's just like, I can't believe I've seen that. And that's absolutely awful. So what we're doing to ourselves is we go on and we scroll and we get the dopamine hit very quickly.

And then we deplete very, very quickly. And that is addictive in itself. Yeah, because I noticed sometimes, and I think what's very common for people is that they'll go on and they'll be seeing some things that are nice and distracting and they get the dopamine hit. And then they'll see a group of people they know all out for dinner, like cheersing or something like that. I wasn't invited to that. And you suddenly see all these things that you're not part of. And even, even more strange, you'll see people that you don't know and you're

not part of their group, but why would you be, you don't know them. But then you're like, I'm just sitting here on my phone. But when we think that everyone's happier. Everyone's happy. Everyone's living their best's happy, exactly. Everyone's living their best life apparently. Totally. And then when you come off, I often have this thing of like, oh God, I feel awful.

And I don't even know which bit made me feel awful because I've just been like, blindly scrolling at so many images that I can't even identify what's triggered me. But it's all set up. I mean, the entire world of social media is set up to be glossy. I mean, the algorithms attract that sort of content. It's meant to display this very idealistic view on life. Everyone's beautiful. Everyone's got perfect bodies. Everyone's got perfect lives, perfect relationships. So of course, that is, we all know that though, that is not the reality for most people. Even the people who are on there creating the content know, and like I know this, I

mean, this is my work, this is my bread and butter. I see people all over the world who have phenomenal, like the most phenomenal success you can imagine. And I know that the fallacy that everyone's happy and people who are rich or famous are successful, they're just so lucky. That isn't true. Everyone's carrying their own stuff, but it's getting almost like this belief that people buy into Michael wouldn't that be amazing to have that house? Wouldn't it be amazing to have their life? Wouldn't it be amazing to have that many followers?

Whatever the contact might be? Every one of those people are suffering in different ways. Yeah, we just don't know about it. But we don't know about it. Because we spoke earlier about the contributing factors today to anxiety and why it's worse than it's ever been. And social media must play a humongous part in that, especially for young people. The research is mixed. Some people would say, like some of the research will point to the positive

benefits of social media, you know, provides them for, you know, information and provide some very positive content. It can provide a community. So there's good things about it. All of that sort of stuff. So there is good stuff about it. But I think we can't ignore the fact that when it comes to things like body image, self-esteem, mental health issues,

there are questions. Look, here's my battleground with social media. I see people going on all of the time. And I guess, you know, look, I'm not a cardiologist, okay, I'm not a liver specialist. So I wouldn't go on to social media and pretend to know about cardiac stuff or liver stuff or kidney stuff because it's just not my bag. I wouldn't go on there with my top off, pretend that I'm a personal trainer, one, because I'd be cancelled and I wouldn't put people through that. But secondly, it would be it's not my bag, it's not my world, I don't know this stuff. I guess one of the things with mental health that I think with, I think it's brilliant that people share stories and experiences

and be honest and encourage conversations. 100% for that. I think it's a really encouraging thing to do. But when I see people on there delivering advice as an expert... When they're not. When they're not, but they deliver it in such a confident way and they have audiences who take them at face value and you listen to the content and you think that's actually clinically inaccurate

and that will make someone more anxious. That stuff, I think that's dangerous because most of the content, you know, I think someone did a study before saying that about 60, 70% of stuff that you see on there that's claimed to be clinical evidence is often inaccurate because it's from people with their new fault of their own. If they haven't trained, they're going to have to do four or five years of training and discipline and hundreds of hours of supervision and all that stuff to qualify as a therapist or a psychologist or a psychiatrist, whatever. In Rem, of course you're not going to give accurate information because that hasn't been your world. But I think there is a danger that there's a lot of advice. There's a brilliant example actually that

I've thought of. Well, this wasn't on social media, but the gym that I used to go to, I was in there, it was just pre-lockdown or post, somewhere between a lockdown anyway. And I went in one day, I'm one of the PTs at the gym I went to had a particular interest in mental health, really well intended, has a bit of a social media presence as well. And there was a whiteboard and which I'm not going to say the person's name, but say it was John. John's top mental health tips for anxiety today. And there were five top tips that this PT had put on the board in the main part of the gym where everyone could see and he'd give five tips for anxiety.

And every one of them were actually maintenance factors for anxiety. What were they? The first one he said was that when you're anxious, the first thing you should always do is call someone up and find the reassurance you need. Wrong. Because reassurance, seeking with anxiety will feed anxiety. Interesting. So he starts off with that. When you're feeling anxious, it's okay to take the day off to not do anything to hide away, to not have to deal with this today. You have to look after yourself. No, no, no, no. That's called repression. That's called avoidance.

That's not what you would do clinically. You would help someone find the confidence to move forward, to step out the door, to do whatever they need to do. You don't overwhelm them, but you would not be encouraging them to hide away. So the list went on and it was just this list of clinically inaccurate things. So he was just describing all of these key components of anxiety maintenance. Now, when you read them, they all sounded lovely. And then the key thing was one of the things was that it's not your fault that you're anxious.

Always remember that. And that's where I really fundamentally disagree. And this might be really hard to hear for most people, but the reality is, and this is one of the things I talk about in the book, most people I've treated or worked with my entire career are a big contributor to their anxiety. And that's fucking hard to hear. But it's true, because we become part of the maintenance, we become addicted to the patterns, we become over invested in it, we become attached to it. So actually we make a choice. We indulge it.

We indulge and we feed it and we collaborate with it and we get involved in it and we take it quite seriously. And we believe the promises that it's delivering. So actually we are part of the problem. And that's really hard to get people to... Someone said to me the other day, I was doing some promotional stuff for the book and she said, I'm going to be really honest with you. She really had suffered anxiety. It was on a podcast and she had suffered anxiety herself. And she said, when I seen the title, I was a bit like, hmmm, addicted to anxiety, harder. Someone say I'm addicted to anxiety. And then she laughed and she said, that's how I would

have reacted when I was in the thick of anxiety. She said, but I just now would have stopped and said, oh, am I? Which is good because I think I've achieved my goal because if I make people stop and think- To have that self-inquiry. To just have the self-inquiry and to at least stop and think because then I think that's part of the problem. If someone believes that they're powerless and that anxiety is something happening to them and that it's got nothing to do with them And that's just all because of their background and their history, which are all contributory factors.

But if someone believes that they have got nothing to do with their anxiety, then what they'll do is they'll step back and they'll become a victim to their anxiety. Yeah. And on that, because I feel like because of the world that we're in at the moment where there's a lot more awareness, which is positive. But like you say, there's also a lot of misinformation and misguidance really around it. And if someone then is like, oh, reads that and thinks, well, therefore, you know, tomorrow when I wake up and I'm feeling a bit anxious, I'm not going to go into work. And then actually like

the sort of snowball effect of that behavior. And then perhaps the company is like, well, we don't want to say that you're, we can't say that you're not anxious. Really tricky. So, and I think that that's become a complete minefield in itself. I get this, I get this every time. So I do a lot of corporate events, morning things I get all the time. It's like, HR managers will come up and say, we're really struggling because a lot of people do this exactly. Yeah, they're like, I can't come in, I'm anxious. I can't go to work because I'm anxious. Now here's the thing. You can't say no. Yeah, you can't say you're not. You can't kick your ass on the bus. Although that's what would have happened when I was young.

Oh my God. We were laughing about this the other day. I mean, we were allowed to take a day off school when I was a kid. I mean, literally you'd have to have your head hanging off to get a day off school. So it's just like, you know, talk about like resilience for the wrong reasons, but like you just went and even to this day about like resilience for the wrong reasons, but like you just went and even to this day as an adult, like I rarely, if ever cancel an event. Yeah, I never cancel a client unless it's like really something terribly serious. But that's the character building. Well, it's like kind of a very Irish Catholic work ethic that I grew up with.

But I also think that we're kind of losing the fact that actually going to work by and large is actually really good for most people's mental well-being. It gets you out of your head. It gets you out of your head. It gives you a function. Most people have a bit of banter in their work. I'm not saying it's perfect and I know some workplaces can be difficult and all of that. But we've started to think about workplaces as treatment centres. What do you mean by that? I think a lot of people, and I hear this all of the time, I think a lot of people go to work and there's the expectation that their employer needs to accommodate this and they should do that. And I should be able to work from home when I choose and I can't go to work if

I'm anxious. And I think I'm like, I know people are not going, I'm not saying that. Look, let me be really clear before I get cancelled. I'm not saying that workplaces should, they should support people as best they can and they should have systems in place to support people. I really believe that wholeheartedly and they should listen to their staff. I agree with that, but I think we've moved into an era now that's just a little bit more, it's getting a little bit ridiculous where actually people are saying, I can't go, I won't go, I need this, I need a two-hour break in my day. I think there's a lot of demands and expectations. Now, if there are exceptional circumstances, by all means, you look at that

individually. But I think at the moment, we have to be open to the fact that I think there are cases where people are, here's a great, actually this has just popped into my head. I was on a train from Richmond going into Waterloo there months ago and there were four girls in the carriage beside me. They didn't know what I did. I didn't know who they were. I was just eavesdropping in on the conversation and one of them was getting married and the four of them are highly engaged in this conversation about the wedding dress and that I knew every detail by the time I got to Waterloo I knew every detail about this wedding and but one of the dramas of the wedding was that one of the brides had lost more weight than she had expected to in some diet that she was doing and she needed to go for another dress fitting. She had no more time

off work because she was booking time for the honeymoon and all that stuff. And one of the girls said, yeah, no, no, no, listen, babe, you can get the time off. And she said, no, she said, I've genuinely no leave left and I need a half a day and it's down in Berkshire or something or up in Berkshire. And she said, no, no, no, babe, you get the time off, your mental health. So I was sat there. I mean, talk about, I nearly got, you know, you're kind of thinking, I thought it's actually not my conversation. And then she said, you're low time off, you're stressed, got a lot on, just tell them you need the afternoon off, it's a mental health day, they have to give you that, they can't argue with that. And I thought, okay, this is, I mean,

that's a bit of an extreme example, but that's, I think we have to acknowledge and be really truthful, that there is some degree of that happening. I'm not saying with everybody, so I want to be really clear about that. And it's not necessarily that it's always that they're actually doing something else entirely, like going and getting a wedding dress fitted, but it's more, I think, the indulging in the feeling. The staying in bed and the avoiding the anxiety and the avoiding the challenge, actually, like in terms of the breakthrough with anxiety, what it would be is really

trying to dig deep and find the courage to go in. Yeah, because like you say, it's actually just fueling it. And the person that's harmed, it's not really like whatever about the companies, but it's the individual who's going in. Yeah, it's a going in. And I think this kind of treatment for anxiety is like, it's awful. It's not your fault. You know, just get all the reassurance you need. Just take time off, be, you know, relax. It's like, no, no, no, that is actually counterintuitive. That's actually going the opposite way of what good clinical treatment would be about, which would be about, look, a textbook definition of anxiety is an intolerance of uncertainty. So there's a key word here in the intolerance.

So basically you could argue that with anxiety, the intolerance becomes about, I can't tolerate the not knowing and I can't tolerate the discomfort. There's a big clue that if that's what's creating the difficulty, then try and move the intolerance to tolerance. And that's going to mean possibly feeling a bit uncomfortable, feeling like you are going out of your comfort zone, feeling like this is difficult, but that doesn't mean that it's wrong.

Because that could be the very thing that's going to move you forward. And make you grow. And make you grow and actually get you in a more, you know, kind of more accustomed to your anxiety, more used to it, more accommodating off it so that when it does move in, like, you know, you and I know from doing talks or these events or podcasts and stuff, you know, nobody rocks up to any of these things feeling completely, oh, chilled, I got this, like, unless you're just a natural performer. Because that's what I was going to say about that.

Because I think you and I both have our experience of speaking in public. And of course, I get a bit of anxiety if I'm going to speak at a festival or something. I remember actually, I was in Ireland over the summer and I had to do a talk. And I remember as I was up there, I was looking around and I felt like people, you know, I caught someone just kind of look away and that voice came into my head. It was like, you have no idea what you're talking about. That person thinks you're a fucking idiot. But like, I don't, it doesn't hijack the car.

Like, I'm like, okay, I can carry on. But then in other aspect, but also I can recognise that doing those things and having those experiences, regardless of that voice, makes me grow as a person and gives me new opportunities and I feel better and more confident and less anxious about myself. Because you put yourself out there and did it. Exactly. I did an event once, this big conferencing, and there were a real mixed bag of people there. And you know, I was there as a psychotherapist and the author and all that sort of stuff. And I don't know whether to take it as a compliment, but I've heard a couple of people say,

oh, you get this kind of working class, common sense voice on this subject. And I kind of take that as a compliment to me. I've done my training and have the experience, but I do like to see myself as a quite, I never want to be seen as the academic or the expert or the guru or any of that bullshit. I can't bear it. I genuinely can't. I just want to be seen as a human being doing my job and doing it well, but with a very common sense view.

Not a simplistic view, but a view that people understand. And I never apologize for that. And that's how I read it. That's how I talk. And I was doing this event and it was a really big event actually. And at the same event, I'm not going to say who the person was, but at the same event, there was somebody else in a similar field to me, but much more academic, profiled in a different way, but they deliver in a very, very different way.

It's very, very scientific. It's very, very factual and stuff. Anyway, long story short, when I saw their name on the bill and I had this moment of just like, that's just fucking great. Look who I'm on after. You know who says Kena. Like polar opposite. And there was just that momentary, you know, that you can hear the narrative starting to spin out. And anyway, long story short, they, that person did their bit, absolutely brilliant, really interesting science research, words that I didn't understand. I'm absolutely happy with that. That was fine. Then I went on and did my bit and it was absolutely fine. The audience were really receptive, but of course it was a sort of critical voice in the background. So afterwards we were in

the green room chatting and stuff, and I was talking to this person and I was laughing and I said, oh, when I saw you on the bill and then I was coming after you, I said, I really had this moment of angst. And he just went really, really quiet. And then it was just kind of direct, direct eye contact. And then he said, shall I tell you something really interesting? He said, when I saw your name on the bill, I felt exactly the same thing.

Oh, that's so sweet. And I said, why? And because I was a bit, I said, well, why were you intimidated? And he said, because I thought they were going to think I'm going to, I'm really dull. Mm. And this guy is just much more common sense and has his stories and they'll connect to him more and they'll like him more. So we're all, you know, at the end of the day, we're all the same, you know, sometimes we're all very good at pretending, but we're all the,

we're all just making our way through. And like you said at the beginning, we all have it and it's just those that can manage it. Don't disguise it better. Yeah, because I wanted to ask as a final thing, the area of my life where I get the worst anxiety and always have is I used to ask you the final thing, the area of my life where I get the worst anxiety and always have is I used to do music and I used to do performing and singing. Oh, did you?

Do you play an instrument? No, just sing. I can play the guitar a little bit, enough to write. I went to music school in South East England. Did you? Yeah. Okay, so that, for whatever reason, that particular performing, singing in front of people is when the anxiety Becomes a monster as in you know, if I had something in the diary I had like a gig or something

For weeks before I would be consumed by the anxiety So the extent where it actually meant that I couldn't continue to do it. I couldn't do it professionally. But now I've got to the point where it's like, I want to still do it because I love music, but I still have that voice that is so overpowering and overbearing. It's like, you can't. And what would be the worst thing for you? What would be the worst thing that could happen if you were performing? I think that people would think that I'm bad.

And what would be so bad about that? Then I'd be worried that I am bad and it's something that I love. Yeah. And what do you believe to be true? Maybe I believe on some level that I am bad. But what's the evidence and what's the feedback tell you about your ability to perform and sing? Well, when I've done it, I've been like the happiest I've ever been. And when I'm on stage, it's like you'd have to drag me off. So it's a very strange roller coaster of emotions.

And the response from the audience is? It's always really good. OK. And then afterwards, I'm like, I can't believe I built that up as this massive thing. So the evidence is I'm not bad because I do it, the feedback's good. And not only is the feedback good, I enjoy it. So holding on and attaching to your belief that I can't do this and I worry I'm bad, you're holding on to your false belief and misrepresentation. Yeah. Because there's no evidence to support, you're holding onto your false belief, the misrepresentation.

Yeah. Cause there's no evidence to support that you're bad. But that is in the sense that I think when you, it was probably from when I was in my early twenties and I performed on TV and whilst there was a huge amount of positive feedback, of course my mind would zoom in on the negative, like everyone does, because that affirmed the belief that I had. And so I've kind of- What was the negative? Well, like, oh, she can't say she shouldn't be doing this. Said who?

It's just some random person on the internet. But- I mean, come on, Nick, you and I both know that- I'm pretty robust in other areas and that wouldn't phase me in anything else. If people like our podcast is absolutely terrible, I would have, well, but for singing. It's the way I really. But singing, you know, I know obviously you love a lot of what you do, but you know, you clearly love singing and you said when I got on stage, it's hard to get me off.

I really, really love it. You clearly love singing and you said, when I got on stage, it's hard to get me off. I really, really love it. But there's something about somebody coming in and criticizing something actually that you're really passionate about and that means something to you. Totally. And that's quite a universal thing, right? It's like the thing that we have, in a way, the most anxiety about is the thing that we truly desire. Is your head telling you that it needs to be perfect or it should be as near perfect as it should be?

Yeah, I think it's a perfectionism thing. Like if I can't control every aspect of it, I can't risk it. I don't know if this is helpful, but I worked with a performer once, really well-known actor, and they were in London doing a big, big show in London. And they were playing a role that was really, really difficult to play. And when I got the call saying, could I work with them in bad performance anxiety, I was really shocked when I knew I was going to be working with them. To find out that they had anxiety.

Yeah, because you would never, you know, obviously people in the public eye, you sort of know who they are and you're familiar with some of their work. I thought I really wouldn't have had that person during his performance anxiety. Anyway, long, long story short, I did some work with this person and it was so severe. I came in to open the night of the show. There were a couple of tech runs and dress rehearsals and I was doing a bit of work with the person in the theatre because the big anxiety we had would come in pre-show and they'd get sick and panic and almost feel like that they couldn't get on stage and stuff. So it was all of these hell beliefs about, you know, this person believed that because this was going to be on the West End, they had to be perfect, it had to be polished,

it had to be amazing. And this particular role he was playing was quite challenging. And when we were doing our work together, we got beneath all the skin of the perfectionism, the beliefs, And when we were doing our work together, we felt beneath all the skin of the perfectionism, the beliefs, high expectations, all of this stuff. But interestingly, he was terrified that his voice might go, he was terrified that he might look foolish. So this was kind of was fueling some of the performance anxiety. And one of the most incredible things we'd done was I said, well, what would it be like? Because the character you're playing is quite multifaceted and complicated. And I think it's the same for any performer or singer.

You know, nobody expects perfect. And certainly from singers, people don't want to hear a perfect voice. Somebody can sing the most incredible song and if their voice cracks because they're feeling the emotion, you don't care. It's just like it's incredible. I said, what about just bringing some of the anger and fear to the character? Rather than this kind of character that you're playing, because they're so multifaceted, just work of the concept to that some of this vulnerability and unease

might be part of... anyway, long, long story short, it was just like one of those golden moments in therapy when it was just like, oh, fucking hell, you're right. So we did this imagery thing, which is not unusual when you're working with performers where he would put this like velvet cloak on him, imaginary velvet cloak before he went on stage and as he would pull his shoulders back and straighten him up and it would give him the kind of gravitas. But within that cloak was the vulnerability, the anxiety, the fear, the strength, all of the aspects of this character. So he kind of went out and I went to open a night and he delivered this absolutely amazing performance. Didn't

get sick beforehand because he was willing for him to be imperfect. He was willing to use that sort of vulnerability or that kind of unease rather than see it as a bad thing or a negative, which is exactly what the whole core message of addictive anxiety. This is not bad. This is not a bad part of you. This is not a part of you to deny, to run from, to reject, to abandon. This is a part of you to move towards. This is about aligning with these parts of yourself, getting to know them, work with them

and allowing them to be part of your life and actually then reclaiming your life in a much fuller way. And it was incredible to watch him do that as a performer. So, you know, I'd say the same to you when you're singing. You know, let that kind of angst, let that anxiety, let that fuel a performance, don't let it stop you. Go do it. I mean, they go the opposite direction, fucking find the gig, take the opportunity because it's clearly important to you. I think then you don't feed that part of you, then you starve a part of yourself that maybe really craves and wants to do something. We're here for a short time. Why would you do that?

I know. Don't, you know, why would you do it? You know, go out, take the risk, fall as many times as you need to. I mean, this is the one Joe, I'm getting older now, you know, and it's the one thing that I really love about getting older, which I never thought I would say is, I just love the fact that you suddenly realize, fucking hell, just do it. Just, you know, who cares? At the end of the day, you know, no one really cares that much. No one's judging or, and I guess I'm skewed, look, I spent 10 years working with people who were terminally ill. So my whole perception of life, when you're working, when you do that

for 10 years and- You see the end. Well, you're just there every day with life and death and sometimes people as young as 17, 18, facing their own mortality. So when you've done that for 10 years, what I didn't realise at the time was that my view on life, I do sometimes see that it has been influenced, but not in a bad way. Whereas I think if I see people getting too much in their own head or getting tied up in knots, I include all of this in my, you know, not just as a psychotherapist, but I include this in my work because I just kind of think,

no, no, no, life is too short, way too much time and wasted here. So it's a bit, it is literally, I mean, I think most of psychology and therapy and everything that I talk about and people like myself talk about. It's literally about fucking get out of your head and get out of your own way. If you can achieve that in your life, then you find a great deal of freedom. I feel like you've sort of already answered this, but as a final note, what do you hope to achieve with this book for people that are reading it? For me, look, I never think about the, I genuinely don't because I get in my own way. Then I started thinking about numbers and when you've had books that have done well,

previously you've got to be very aware of the human ego coming out and thinking, God, this better be another hit and all that crap. So I've got much better at thinking, right, I think it's the book of my career, if I'm being really honest. It's my fourth book and it really feels like whatever happens, it feels like it's the book. It was the one book I wanted to write. It was a book I wish someone had given to me at 20, if I'm being honest. I wish somebody had handed me that and I would have sat down and thought, I get it.

I can now understand that I'm not these thoughts. I'm not this person. This is just a part of me that I need to start really getting to know and integrating and accepting and actually celebrating rather than pushing away. I wish I had known that in my 20s because there was just a lot of time that was angst driven that didn't need to be. So I guess really I want it to be a book that anyone picks up and immediately feels that sense of fucking hell, this is not just me.

And there's nothing wrong with me, and this is not abnormal. And I'm not flawed, I'm not disordered. This is, God, this is a very human part of me, but this doesn't need to dominate my life. So it's kind of really about getting people back in the drive and see to their own lives, really. That's the goal for the book. Fantastic. Well, thank you so much. Thank you.

Thanks for having me. I've loved the conversation. I've loved it as well. I feel like it's been so useful for me on a personal level and I'm sure it will be to our audience as well. I hope so. Well thank you. Well I look forward to your next singing before. On a credit. Yeah, exactly. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Saturn Returns with me and Owen. I hope that you found it useful. If you are navigating something challenging yourself, I definitely resonated with a lot of what we discussed.

This idea of being addicted to our anxiety and fueling it with coffee in social media. So it's a note to self to just be a little bit more mindful of the things that make us feel better or worse. If you did enjoy this episode please please please make sure that you follow the show if you haven't already. This really helps us and it also makes sure that you never miss an episode and also if you could share it with a friend you think might find it useful. This show has grown completely organically since lockdown and I'm so proud of that and it has been simply through word of mouth through friends sharing it on WhatsApp. WhatsApp is our number one tool for people sharing the

podcast which I thought was pretty cool. So please continue to do so so we can reach other like-minded people because even though we're on season 11 and been doing this for five years, it brings me so much joy when someone messages me saying, I've just discovered your podcast, like late to the party, but I'm so happy that I found it because it just goes to show that the content is evergreen, as I always intended it to be, and it means that more people are joining the community. So thank you all for sharing. And as always remember, you are not alone. Goodbye.