Saturn Returns with Caggie - *Part 2* Dr. Gabor Maté on Ego, Intuition, and The Healing Power of Psychedelics

Episode Date: December 30, 2024

TRIGGER WARNING: This episode discusses themes around sexual abuse. In this episode of Saturn Returns, Caggie continues her conversation with renowned physician, author, and speaker, Dr. Gabor Maté. They dive deeper into Maté's wealth of knowledge and experience in the realms of addiction, trauma, and mental health, exploring a wide range of topics such as: 🪐 The nature of the ego and its relationship to trauma in leadership 🪐 The balancing act of maintaining authenticity amidst personal and professional success 🪐 The transformative potential of psychedelics in healing and personal growth 🪐 The unique intuition and consciousness that women can access through their menstrual cycles 🪐 Maté's overarching vision for empowering people to live more freely and authentically If this conversation has resonated with you, we encourage you to explore Gabor Maté's work further, including his latest book, The Myth of Normal. This episode aims to provide insights and inspiration to support you in living more freely and authentically. Remember, you are not alone on your journey of self-discovery and healing.  — We're so excited to be partnering with WoodWick this season. Check out their timeless, elegant collection that's bursting with indulgence here. If this episode resonated with you, we’d love your support - please take a moment to comment and share your thoughts. Your feedback means so much and helps us reach more listeners! Keep up with Caggie: 🪐 Follow Caggie on Instagram: @caggiesworld 🪐 Subscribe to Caggie’s Substack: You Are Not Alone for insights into her personal journey. Discover more from Saturn Returns: 🪐 Instagram, YouTube and TikTok 🪐 Order the Saturn Returns book: Click here 🪐 Join our community newsletter: Sign up here 🪐 Explore all things Saturn Returns: Visit our website This episode was made possible by our friends at East Healing. Visit easthealing.com today to explore their full range of acupressure products and start your journey to enhanced well-being. For a limited time, you can enjoy an exclusive discount with the code ‘SATURN15’ at checkout.

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That's woodwick.yankycandle.co.uk and discover how small rituals can create big moments of tranquility this season. Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. This is part two of my interview with Gabor Mate, a renowned physician, author and speaker celebrated for his expertise in trauma, addiction, stress and childhood development. With decades of experience, he has pioneered a compassionate approach to understanding how life experiences shape mental and physical health. I hope you enjoy this conversation.

It's a tricky thing when someone becomes very famous or reaches a lot of success to kind of manage the ego, because it can quite easily... You know what? The older I get, the less seriously I take my ego. I mean, I just see it for what it is. And what do you see it as? Well, the ego itself is a little demand to be noticed and to be valued. And why? Because we weren't as infants. So it's a compensation. So I can see it for the little, I mean the bigger ego, the bigger

themes in the world, the smaller the person really is inside. So I look at these politicians, you know, like these humongous egos, they're such little people, so scared, so desperate, so dependent. So traumatized? Traumatized, yeah. Well, look, the British upper class is a John LaCarrée, the great spy writer, you know. He was in conversation with another British writer. I think his name was Brian Macaulay, but I forget the name. Anyway, the two of them were in conversation. And one of them, and this was in the New York review of books, and one of them said to the other one that

a British upperclassman could have a fifth grade nervous breakdown starting right next to you, and you wouldn't know it. You wouldn't know it. You wouldn't know it. And when you actually look at these stiff-lipped heroes When you actually look at these stiff-lipped heroes that went out and massacred the world, if you go to Westminster, I was in Westminster Abbey last fall and I took a long, slow tour. There's all these monuments to mass murderers, people that went to India and killed a lot of people, people that went

to Africa or Afghanistan and killed a lot of people. What for? For the sake of domination and for the sake of control and for all the wealth that Britain sucked in from the world. This is how the royal family made its money, as Harry kind of intimated in his autobiography. But who would do such things? They were sent to these public schools, so-called public schools, where they were just miserably treated and bullied and abused.

And suppressing everything they felt. And suppressing them with their stiff upper lip. So they could do all that stuff out there. And these are the leaders. On that, I heard you say that you regretted the interview you did with Harry. Yeah, I didn't regret the interview. I really enjoyed the interview. I thought we had a great conversation.

What I regretted was that I had agreed against my own gut feelings to the publishers or the organizers demand that it be put behind the paywall. So people had to buy a copy of Harry's book to watch and I thought, this isn't fair because four million people already had. Why should they not be able to watch this conversation? And Harry and I both felt afterwards that this would be a gift to the world.

But the lawyer said that if it was released, we'd be subject to a class action suit because it had been marketed. Yeah, as something that was exclusive to those. So I thought that was a huge mistake and I wish I hadn't agreed to that. And it was an example of not paying attention to a gut feeling. Because my guts were telling me. But I still did it. Because I was going to say, what are your...

Do you ever kind of feel that you lose your authenticity as being someone that's very in demand, kind of wearing multiple hats, being pulled in every direction? How do you maintain your center of your authentic self? And it sounds like it's still quite challenging sometimes. Well, look, that's constant work, but you know, if I... It's a question of being intentional in my life. What am I actually intending? Not just being pulled and pushed in every direction. What am I valuing?

Do I... If I do my yoga and meditation, for example, I'm in much better shape than when I don't. And you're swimming. Well, swimming is absolutely essential. Yeah. So there's got to be self-care. And I have to really, you know, I don't accept invitations now or speaking to or request without discussing with my wife. I just don't sneak in under the door and guess what dear, I'm going to Australia next week.

And how has she managed this sort of explosion that's happened over the last five years or ten years? You know, she's pleased for the success of the work. She's not in the least impressed. It doesn't change her view of me or, and she, by the way, she always said to me quite some time ago when I used to be anxious about, you know, why doesn't the world, why doesn't the world be the path to my door?

And she said, listen, Gabor, just do the work and let the work do its own work in the world and that's what happened. So eventually it got noticed, so here it is. But she's not impressed by it and she doesn't want to feed it in any way at all. If it doesn't fit into our lives, she wants nothing to do with it. The next thing I wanted to ask you about, and you touched on it a second ago, I know that you had quite a transformational experience with psychedelics. Yeah.

Would you be able to share your thoughts on plant medicine and that particular journey for you? Yeah. Well, the one journey that you're probably referring to is the one that's written up in my book, The Myth or Normal. So that was one experience and I can talk about it if you like. But I've been working with psychedelics now for 15 years now. I mean in the 60s as a student I did dabble with L LSD and all this. I think actually, Ray said in the interview that on your first date, you showed up on

acid. Yeah, the first time I dated my wife. But actually, what had happened to me is there was a woman I was deeply in love with, but the only time we could communicate and relax with each other is when I was stoned on acid. And then it was like heaven on earth. But when I wasn't stoned, we had nothing to say to each other. So I actually, and I dated her for six months or more. And I still was when I met my wife.

And I actually believed that I couldn't be any fun without acid, that I wouldn't be acceptable interesting enough to a woman. So the first time I dated Ray, my wife, I took acid. You know? But she said you were very funny on it. She thought I was the funniest, most fun guy in the world, you know? We had a good time. I didn't tell her for years later.

But anyway, my psychedelic use in the 60s was strictly for recreation or fun purposes. I had no spiritual intention behind it or transformational intention. And after my book on addiction came out in 2009 in the realm of hunger ghosts, based on my work with this addicted population and based on my own addictive history, people were asking me, what do you know about ayahuasca, which is Peruvian or Amazonian plant, and the treatment of addiction? And I said, I know nothing. But people kept asking me.

So I finally thought, maybe I should find out. So then I began to seriously in psychedelic work, and I found that psychedelic plants especially can be powerful agents of transformation and healing. There was an article yesterday in the New York Times about a plant called iboga, which grows in Gabon and has been used there by the tribes there for spiritual purposes for tons of years. But iboga has got the capacity in the right setting, and this is really important to stress, in the right hands, you could be an opiate addict and do one session with iboga

and not have withdrawal symptoms from the opiates. I mean, it's unbelievable. I've seen it. You've seen it. I've worked with it. It's been studied, article in New York Times about it, about the studies and around it, and it's still illegal in Britain and Canada and the US.

Why is that? Because people are stupid. That's why. Is it just stupidity or is it more intentional? The politicians are opportunistic babies, and they will not stick their necks out. So that, you know, there's this whole anti-drug prejudice. So they're not going gonna extend themselves to find out and despite all the evidence. A lot of the heroin addicts in this country could be healed

with the proper use of Iboga. Now it's not 100%, it's only 50 or 60%, which is like 10 times better than anything else that we have. And it's not without risks, but again, in the right hands, those risks can be mitigated and minimized. So I'm not without risks, but again, in the right hands, those risks can be mitigated and minimized. So I'm not here to, it's like the evangelist, but I'm just saying that there are certain uses

that are, we're actually insane to ignore. Imagine if you could put somebody, like the only, we don't have any treatments for opiate addiction in the Western world. We give people methadone or suboxone, but those aren't treatments. They're just substituting one opiate for another. And with iboga, you could actually get people off their opiates within a couple of days. I have long been a fan of Chinese medicine healing tools, so I am delighted to share

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with the code SATIN15 at checkout. What would a world look like where that is, you know, given the right setting and intention and integration for people struggling with addiction? Like what could it look like in the future? Well, I mean, I've done it tonight. I've led retweets with the plant ayahuasca, for example. And you, which by the way, doesn't treat addiction like the way iboga does.

Iboga is unique that way. Ayahuasca can help, but the difference between ayahuasca and ibogaine is that ibogaine actually stops the withdrawal symptoms. Wow. So that the cold turkey. I don't know if you remember that song by John Lennon called Cold Turkeys Got You On The Run. I mean, it's hell to withdraw from heroin. Iboga obviates that.

It stops the withdrawal. Now, Ayahuasca doesn't do that. I don't know if you've heard of it, but it's a very common thing in the West. It's a very common thing in the West. It's a very common thing in the West. It's a very common thing in the West. It's a very common thing in the West. It's a very common thing in the West. It's a very common thing in the West.

It's a very common thing in the West. It's a very common thing in the West. It's a very common thing in the West. It's a very common thing in the West. It's a are an attempt to escape pain. That's all they are. Again, this whole idea of addictions being this disease that you inherit is, from a scientific point of view, nonsense. When you ask people what any addiction will do for them,

whether it's drugs or gambling or pornography or shopping or eating or whatever it is, always sues my emotional pain. So the real issue, as I say, is not why the addiction, but why the pain. And you don't understand people's pain. You've got to look at their lives and what happened to them. So the psychedelic plants can actually help you put you in touch with what happened to you. And you have to face that pain.

You have to face it, but you have to face it with support so that you're not overwhelmed by it. The problem is that the first time you experienced those pains, you were helpless and isolated and without support. That's why the pain never got resolved. That's why you had to escape into addiction. Well, what if you could face that pain in an atmosphere of support and acceptance and integration where you're not alone, where you actually with your adult mind can understand what happened. What if you got in touch with deep parts of yourself that were maybe

suppressed, like the first time I did ayahuasca 15 years ago now. I just started crying, tears came down my face. It was pure love. And it wasn't love just for any one person. It wasn't that. It was just my heart opening. And I realized, going through what happened to me as an infant, how much I closed my heart. Just in the closing of the heart. Hard-hearted people are just very hurt people who harden themselves not to feel the pain. So the eye also just opened me right up. So you could get in touch with both the painful dynamics that you've been suppressing, running away from compensating for, whether through addiction or by people

pleasing or by whatever, but also put you in touch with the deep love and possibilities that dwell in your soul. So psychedelics in the right environment can do that. No, they can also be exploited. I've seen people being exploited on psychedelics. They are being... I am a huge advocate for them, but then I do worry about the lack of integration around them. If people haven't done any of the work,

then they're going in for this like hero's dose and then being spat out. I don't know whether that's very helpful. Well, it can be... And it can sort of set off something else. It can be very discomforting and discombobulating, and I've seen people hurt by it, just because of that lack of preparation and integration afterwards. But I've also seen people literally exploited, I've seen people sexually exploited.

Psychedelics can make you very vulnerable, you're very open. You've seen people sexually exploited from it? Oh yeah, I've seen that in the ayahuasca world. Really? I've seen it in the MDMA world. What do you mean by that? Well look, any time you get vulnerable people on one end and powerful leaders on the other, if in the powerful leader there's any kind of exploitative tendency,

they have a field day. And you can see it in the church, can't you? With priests exploiting vulnerable. I guess it happens in a lot of things that become cults. But even without a cult, it can happen in psychiatry, it can happen in medicine, doctors to exploit their patients. What do you think's happening there in terms of, because I'm always curious, because there's so many stories of this, about having someone that might start off with a good intention

and have something really beautiful to share with the world. And then something happens like the ego, the sort of messiah complex takes over, and then it becomes sort of dark and depraved. What's your observation of that pattern? Well that's just what's so interesting isn't it, what you just said, because the teachings that they can transmit are so beautiful and transformative and powerful and real but they're not integrated. They haven't done the emotional work. They've done, they've developed spiritually, but not emotionally. And emotionally inside them is still a hungry,

acquisitive little ego, which then given the power and then given the vulnerability of the people that come to them. Look, I've seen it. When you're working like I do, you meet a lot of people. And there's always possibility for exploitation where I minded that way, because people are vulnerable. They open themselves and I idolize you. And I do everything I can not to be idolized. I mean, I'm sort of

the most, in a certain way, I'm just a totally ridiculous little being like everybody else is. But is that a constant thing that you have to kind of remind yourself of when you are being? I'm not tempted, but I can see where I could have been or where I was, but I dealt with it. But these people, if they haven't done the emotional work, then they've got this terrific spiritual burgeoning of spiritual wisdom and power, but then you get these vulnerable people, and the ego in them just wants to exploit that. And the ego will even tell them it's for their benefit. You know, sleep with me and you'll be closer to God, this kind of stuff. So I've seen that in the Buddhist world, in the Hindu world,

in the Christian world, in the Jewish world. So naturally that happens in the psychedelic world as well. It's not particularly egregious in the psychedelic world. It's just similar to what you see in other disciplines. It's a very similar sort of format. And I guess in a way it's intensified because of that period of time where someone is gone, is totally vulnerable,

but is having, I guess, a spiritual experience. That's right. And what are some of, like, what's your... By the way, none of which is to denigrate the value of psychedelics, which I totally support. No, of course. I'm just telling people that do diligence and, you know, like with everything else, don't take anything on faith.

You know, investigate it for yourself. And pay attention to your gut feelings. Yeah, because the sort of tricky thing is when people are at their most vulnerable, they're seeking this stuff. But then they're also the most impressionable and perhaps most out of touch with themselves. Which is also true of people that go into spiritual work and true for people that go to psychiatrists or turn to priests for solace and advice. So it's the vulnerable who seek the help

and it's the vulnerable who get exploited. So what's the solution in that? Well, the solution in the psychedelic world is that there needs to be a lot of rules laid down. Regulations. Regulations and accountability. And one of the unfortunate problems of the semi-legal or illegal status of it, it's impossible to regulate, which is on governments as to

their backwardness in approaching psychedelic healing, which by the way is changing because in the US, for example, they're fast tracking MDMA now for post traumatic stress disorder and they're studying Yoruba again now. So that's one solution. The other solution is to deliver it in a way that no single leader is just left on their own. As a sort of deity to our ships. Yeah, yeah, but that is groups and observation of each other. And then thirdly, people really need to pay attention to their gut feelings.

It doesn't matter how, we do have gut feelings, you know, and if you pay attention to them you'll be kind of warned. The problem is that the more traumatized you are, the more disconnected you are from your gut feelings. So again, I'm not trying to discourage anybody, I'm just trying to say like with everything else, we need to be careful about how we use these modalities. You said a second ago about when you did the Prince Harry interview and you said you had a gut feeling. For those listening that want to kind of reconnect with their intuitive knowing or their authenticity and their gut feelings, what would you say is the best place to start? Best place to start if you have a gut feeling, listen to it and don't try and understand why. Like the intellect will take a long time to catch up. In fact, it'll try and talk you out of it.

So if you've got a feeling, if this doesn't feel right to you, it's not right. And you're going to be, if you pay attention to that, you'll be right most of the time. So just don't question it, don't intellectualize it, don't try to... Don't ask people about it. No, no, just listen to yourself. And you know, it's astonishing, for example, how often I talk with women who have been in abusive relationships and over a long time.

And then I ask them, well, tell me something, before the abuse even started, was there ever any inkling of a gut feeling that there's something not quite right about this? You know what the answer is most of the time? Yes, there was. But they didn't pay attention to it. Now, that's not their fault.

They learned early in life to ignore their gut feelings. That's how they survived. That's how they got acceptable. But it's there. For most of us, it's there. And my advice is, for God's sake, pay attention to it. And people often say, women in particular, often say, how will I ever learn to trust men again? You know, when I say you don't have to trust men, you have to trust yourself. If you pay attention to your feelings, that'll tell you who you can trust and who you can't trust. So it's that capacity to be connected to self, that authenticity, that we really have to develop. That's what keeps us safe in the world. And that allows us to know who we can have in our lives.

Exactly. That'll tell you who you can let in and who you can keep at a distance. Would you say that women are more intuitive than men? Yeah, I would say that overall. I think there's reasons for that. For one thing, there's menstruation. Menstruation is very interesting because we medicalize it. Premenstrual syndrome, PMS.

What happens to them, I think the hormones and the fluctuation of the female hormones actually sensitize women so that in the PMS, when they get irritable and upset and so on, and you know, this is supposed to be a medical problem, let's medicate it, what's actually happening is that the stress and the strain that they usually put up with becomes less tolerable. So that PMS is a good way of telling you what's not working in your life. So it's not just a, it's not a disease state, it's actually a state of heightened consciousness. If you pay attention to it that way.

And actually in ancient cultures, they'd have ceremonies on menstruation, you know, and so I'm saying... Because of that higher state of consciousness. Because of that higher state of consciousness, higher state of being aware of your body, you know, and… And the sensitivity to everything. And you know that the menstrual cycle, how connected it is to the moon, and you know, it's like, it's a natural cycle.

Now we… What are your thoughts on it being connected to the moon? To the moon? Mm-hmm. You know what, I'm not sensitive that way. I'm pretty dense, to tell you the truth, and I have a very thick skull. So theoretically I understand it. And you believe it. But I don't have a felt connection.

Do you believe that women do? I believe that many women do, and they can, if they work at it. I think it's dulled by living in an unnatural culture. But I think the possibility is there, and more available to women than to most men. I do believe that. And how can women use their cycle then, rather than seeing it as a burden, as something that becomes their superpower?

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room into a sanctuary. As its soft glow fills the space, I'm reminded that the New Year isn't about rushing forward, it's about savouring the stillness and finding beauty in the quiet moments. Explore the full collection at woodwick.yankicandle.co.uk, that's woodwick.yankicandle.co.uk, and discover how small rituals can create big moments of tranquillity this season. small rituals can create big moments of tranquility this season. Well, I mean, look, first of all, I don't see myself as any kind of expert on how women should handle their physiology. But for one thing I'd say, when something strikes you as irritating and you want to say no to it pre-menstrually, you probably should say no to it

in the rest of your life as well. In other words, let it teach you. Let it teach you what's not working for you. Rather than seeing it as a problem to get through, what is it that you're accommodating and putting up with that's actually really bugging you, but you're not paying attention to that irritation the rest of the time.

Tuning into that. By the way, I'm talking to a woman. Does that make sense to you? No, I can see something shifting in you when you're like, I can't believe I'm talking about this. But it's so interesting getting your perspective on it because I've only heard women talk about it in a specific space. So it's really, for lack of a better word, affirming that you actually also see it's something

as a sort of a potent life force that gives women this innate ability to know what's right for them. Yeah, I think that's very much there. And also, of course, women give birth, which is a deeply physical event and spiritual event, you know, and it opens them up in a way that men have more difficulty accessing. The final thing, so I feel like I've taken up a lot of your time, but I've loved this conversation by the way.

But what is your hope for the work that you've done in terms of how it will impact people? You know, I participated in a workshop in Los Angeles maybe seven, eight years ago now. And it was about what is your calling? And you would have thought by then when I was 72 or 73, I would know what my calling is, but it needed some clarifying. And what I came through with after two days is that my calling is that people are free. And the calling, by calling, what they meant was, what's the imprint you'd like to have left in the world? When you're no longer here, what is the legacy

or the effect so that if you hadn't been here, there would be less of it somehow. And what came up to me is that my calling is that people are free, freedom. And all my work is about that. So freedom to me, I grew up in Hungary under communist dictatorship. In 1956, there was a revolution against, and there was a freedom fight. I saw that. I was inspired by it. I'm inspired

by freedom. I'm also inspired by freedom in a personal sense, and that much of the dynamics that you and I have been speaking about have been about how unconscious patterns are imprinted, traumas keep us limited, keep us self-suppressed. Shackled, yeah. are imprinted, traumas keep us limited, keep us self-suppressed. Shackled, yeah. Shackled, that's right. And so I want people to be free of their own unconscious. I want them to be free of these dynamics that keep them limited and separated

and disconnected from their authentic selves, that keep them in relationships that don't serve them, that keep them in roles that don't represent who they are. I just want people to be free. And so that's what my intention is. That's what I would like for the world. I just want people to be free. I think you're doing a wonderful job of it.

Thank you. So thank you so much for joining me today. Oh, my pleasure. Thank you. It's been a pleasure for me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to this interview between myself and Gabor. It was such a joy to sit down with the legend himself

and for him to share so much wisdom with me and our audience. So I hope you enjoyed it. And if you did enjoy this episode, please write us a review wherever you listen to your podcasts or share us on social media. This helps us get discovered by your communities and more like-minded individuals. Thank you so much for listening and as always remember you are not alone. Goodbye.