Saturn Returns with Caggie - Reconnecting with Your Authentic Self: Dr. Sarah Kuburic on Radical Responsibility, Self-Loss, and Finding Meaning

Episode Date: December 16, 2024

In this week’s episode, Caggie is joined by Dr. Sara Kuburic - an existential psychotherapist, acclaimed speaker, and author. You may know her as The Millennial Therapist on Instagram, where her insights resonate with an incredible community of 1.7 million followers. Dr. Sara has devoted her life to normalising the complexities of the human experience and helping others engage in profound self-reflection. Together, Caggie and Dr. Sara dive into powerful Saturnian themes like taking radical responsibility for our lives and choices. They also explore the concept of self-loss and the big existential questions: Who am I? and Why am I here? Drawing from her own life experiences - shaped by war, questions of identity, and a deep exploration of humanity - Dr. Sara blends existential philosophy with psychology to inspire freedom, authenticity, and meaning. Key discussion points from the episode include: 🪐 Dr. Sara Kuburic's background and existential therapy 🪐 The concept of existentialism  🪐 Societal pressures and the role of social media 🪐 Navigating authenticity and self-discovery 🪐 The importance of community and reflection 🪐 Challenges in relationships and setting boundaries 🪐 Living authentically and overcoming societal expectations If you’ve ever felt stuck, lost, or unsure about your purpose, this conversation invites you to dig deep and reflect on what truly matters. — This episode was made possible by Hertility, the go-to brand for women’s health, offering hormone and fertility testing, online consultations, and in-person treatments with the UK’s top experts. For £10 off your first order, use the code Caggie10 here and get started on your journey to peace of mind. We're so excited to be partnering with WoodWick this season. Check out their timeless, elegant collection that's bursting with indulgence here. Don’t forget to follow or subscribe to the Saturn Returns podcast for future episodes, where we dive deep into the transformative journey of Saturn’s return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking conversations. If this episode resonated with you, we’d love your support. Please take a moment to comment and share your thoughts. Your feedback means so much and helps us reach more listeners! Keep up with Caggie: 🪐 Follow Caggie on Instagram: @caggiesworld 🪐 Subscribe to Caggie’s Substack for insights into her personal journey Discover more from Saturn Returns: 🪐 Instagram, YouTube and TikTok 🪐 Order the Saturn Returns book here 🪐 Join our community newsletter here 🪐 Explore all things Saturn Returns here

As we enter the festive season, there's something truly indulgent about creating moments of calm and warmth at home. For me, that's where my Woodwick candle comes in. The soft crackle of the wooden wick, reminiscent of wood burning fire, fills my space with a luxurious atmosphere and helps me pause, relax and embrace the season's magic. This winter, Woodwick's latest fragrances are perfect for transforming your home. Antiquarium offers a woody aroma with cinnamon bark, white cardamom and ginger, whilst Gilded Sands combines bergamot, fig and peppercorn for a warm, elegant scent. Lighting a Woodwick candle isn't just about fragrance. It's about creating a sensory experience

that elevates your environment. The cracking wick, stylish design and bold sense remind you to pause and enjoy a moment of indulgence. Explore the collection at woodwick.yankycandle.co.uk. That's woodwick.yankycandle.co.uk. And make every moment this winter one of tranquility and luxury. Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kage Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. Now many of you that listen to this podcast are on your own journeys of self-discovery

and transformation and so I think you're going to really enjoy this week's guest. I sit down with Dr. Sarah Kubrick, an existential psychotherapist, speaker, author and co-founder of the Phenomenological Society. Quite impressed that I managed to say that in one go. Known as the millennial therapist on Instagram to her community of 1.7 million people, Dr. Sarah has dedicated her life to normalizing the complexities of the human experience and encouraging deep self-reflection. I adored having this conversation with her. I felt like there were many Saturnian themes about taking radical responsibility for ourselves and our lives and she really helps people explore the big concepts around self-loss and helps individuals answer

life's biggest questions like who am I and why am I here. With a passion rooted in her personal experiences of war, identity and humanity, Dr. Sarah Kubrick draws on existential philosophy to guide others in finding freedom, authenticity and meaning in their lives. I hope you enjoy this conversation and it provides some food for thought in whatever you are navigating at the moment. Well, Sara, thank you so much for joining us on the Saturn Returns podcast. I'm super excited to speak to you.

I feel like what you represent and what you're about is very Saturnian in its principles in terms of, you know, taking responsibility for things, accountability for ourselves and our lives, our relationships and how we show up in the world. So for the audience that isn't familiar with your work, would you be able to share a little bit about who you are and what you do? Of course, thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to be here.

So I'm an existential psychotherapist. Which I just love by the way, I'm like, is that for people that are having an existential crisis? Cause I think we all are. Yes, it is. It literally is. I like the till about like COVID, Is that for people that are having an existential crisis? Cause they think we all are. It is. It literally is. I liked it till about like COVID, no one knew what an existential crisis really was.

And then all of a sudden I became really cool. And like, it was really shocking for me to be relevant because usually I was, they were like, oh, so like the old dead philosophers, that's like, that's the premise of your practice. I'd be like, yeah. and now I'm hip and cool. So wait, can I just ask going into that for a second. So pre pandemic, you were still practicing under, you know, an existential therapist, but then people were like, okay, whatever. And then everyone went through a collective crisis. They're like, we need you!

Literally, I mean, I, you know, I had a private practice and a lot of it is under like the millennial therapists. That's why people came to me. And then, you know, I had a dissential therapist in my bio for years, but just no one can I swear no one gave a shit. Is that okay? No, no one cared. No one cared. And then after COVID and especially after the Barbie movie, because the theme of like having an existential crisis, every time I come on a podcast, you're like, what is an existential therapist? And I'm so excited to, you know, be relevant again.

So why do you think that it's because, I mean, obviously the pandemic, and it you think that it's become I mean, obviously the pandemic and it's interesting that you mentioned the Barbie movie movie, but why do you think it's become such a sort of hot topic today? I think more people are experiencing it. I think with more freedom comes more anxiety. I mean, this is something philosophers have talked about forever. But I think we're truly

seeing it. We're seeing people can work remotely, people can live anywhere in the world, people can do almost any job. Of course, some people have limitations, but those limitations look so different than 50 years ago, 100 years ago. And I think people are incredibly overwhelmed by the opportunities and the amount of choices they need to create. And simultaneously, I think we have more pressure than ever to have meaning, to be quote unquote

authentic and we can't really get into what that even means. And so I think people are like, wow, I can do anything and everything and yet I need to fit into this mold. And people are overwhelmed by it. And so they're just kind of sleepwalking through life. And I think when they get that wake up call, and I think that the pandemic was a huge wake up call, probably because people were stuck with themselves. Like how uncomfortable if you don't like who you are, oh my God.

And that's what was happening. People were stuck with themselves, with each other, with their partners, and they just couldn't handle it because they saw things that they were avoiding for such a long time. Mm hmm. They had to face the hard truths in themselves and in their relationships and everything. It was a lot. But for those that might not be familiar with the term, existential is essentially when you're having those questions about who am I and what is my

purpose, the sort of the big, the big thing. Yes, correct. So that's I mean, existentialism is known for touching on themes of responsibility, authenticity, meaning, death, isolation, literally everything we don't want to talk about as humans on a daily basis or think about. I mean, I do. That's all I want to talk about as humans on a daily basis or think about. I mean, I do. That's all I want to talk about. That's literally all I talk about. I'm inseparable, I'm sure. And it's these super heavy topics and these grander questions. And it's really about how are you showing up in the world?

And are you taking responsibility for it? And at the end of the day, is it going to mean anything? And so that's, you know, that's the framework. And how did you get into this work? What led you to sort of have, face your own hard truths and, I don't know, start doing what you're doing now? Yeah, so it was a rock bottom. But you know, there's, yeah, you know, what a cute story. I really wish I could be like, no, I was so enlightened that I was like, I just want to work at a different frequency.

I just wish one day I woke up and it was like, I can do, I can do better. No, that did not happen. That was not it for me at all. So the answer is twofold. How I got into existentialism, I think is like very early childhood experiences. So I was actually born in Bosnia.

The war happened in Serbia, and the war happened, then immigrated to Canada. And I think during that time, I had a really difficult, I found difficulty relating to people my own age or to books and authors that were targeting my me and my audience I guess that I belong to and I started reading Dostoevsky and I started reading Tolstoy at like age 12 and without truly understanding that they were existentialists and that a lot of what they talk about are the essential existential pillars.

And so I think I was a little brainwashed from a really young age where I was so into it and I think I was so into it because it resonated with me so, so deeply and the way that I thought about humanity, the way I thought about my own life. And so that was kind of my introduction was through literature, through novels. And then in my early 20s, I hit a very rock bottom. In terms of just understanding how lost I was, I talk about a term of self loss, I had no idea who I was. I looked in a mirror and there was absolutely no connection. She was a complete stranger to me and not just a stranger, but someone I hated and didn't know.

It was so scary, so isolating. As a result, I developed a panic disorder. I struggled with anxiety for years. I definitely, the first moment that I realized I was unhappy, I cried in public. It was super embarrassing for someone who does not show emotions at that time. I felt so ashamed that I was going through this crisis and my friend was sitting there looking at me, didn't know how to respond. Everyone in the restaurant was staring at us. I remember going home and being like, that was so rough. Thank God it's over. I figured it out. I had a really hard moment of truth

realizing I was really happy. I didn't really know myself, but like, the hard work is done. And that is so funny to look at now because literally not even the start. You had a public breakdown because your friend asked you, are you happy? Like that was not it. That was just like scratching the surface. I went to my hotel room and I was like, let me celebrate how enlightened I am. So I ordered like burritos and watched friends and was like, look at the heights I'm reaching. Like it was just so delusional in the best way.

I was just about to say, I have been there. Like that delusional, like, no, I have got it together. That was just a little blip. It's all good. And then you're like. It's totally fine. Then I got in a flight the next morning, had a panic attack, and had to get off the flight, went into full, essentially,

body paralysis, and thought I was dying. The reason I'm bringing this up is because that was the rock bottom. That was like the moment where I realized, oh, I'm going to die without having lived. And is there anything, if I can have a second chance, is there anything I would spare? Is there anything, any consideration that I had up to now,

would it still be a consideration moving forward? And the answer was absolutely not. All the things that were guiding my life and controlling my life and limiting my life, none of them were relevant when I actually thought I was dying. And that was kind of the slow catalyst of what took years of clawing out of this pit of self-loss. So that was my rock-bottom story. of what took years of clawing out of this pit of self-loss. So that was my rock bottom story. You might remember my conversation with the wonderful Dr. Helen O'Neill back in season nine. Dr. Helen is the founder of Hertility,

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HattilityHealth.com and get started on your journey to peace of mind. I actually had my rock bottom was really similar because I sort of started this podcast, there's quite a lot of mirroring, but I started it based off the fact that when I moved to LA, it was a little bit later, I was around 27, and I had a similar thing where I was sort of faced with the fact that I had betrayed myself so many times that I'd gone down this path where I really had no idea who I was. But I wanted to know, but facing the fact that I had no idea was so terrifying. And it also amounted in a panic attack or an anxiety attack, one of two I've ever had in my life.

And it's quite fascinating how the body's wisdom has this way of speaking to us when we're trying to push it down and ignore it. And I think that as a society, we are quite guilty of, you know, prescribing or numbing rather than going like, okay, there's something up here that I really need to pay attention to. And there's a reason that this is happening physically for me that I need to look at. But I'm sure like through the work that you've done you must and from the following that you've got acquired so many people that are going through these experiences and not knowing where to go, not having the tools, not having done the reading when they were younger because I too was very interested in that and it's interesting that you gravitate,

you said you were brainwashed, but I think we gravitate towards the things that connect with us on a sort of soul level. And then that probably came back home to all of those things a little bit later. But for the people that might not have had that or don't know where to go, what are some of the things that you've sort of uncovered

over the last couple of years about the things that people are struggling with and how they're coping or not coping with them? Yeah, I think majority of us are struggling with the big questions. I don't think we've ever been taught how to face them or how to answer them. Besides maybe an imposition in terms of this is why your answer should be but we were never taught how do you sit with the question, how do you process the question, how do you find your own answers to the question. And so I think as a society a lot of a lot of us are feeling lost and I don't want to say everyone feels lost like self-lost just because that's such an extreme version of it. But I think a lot of us operate from a

really inauthentic space. And we get rewarded for it. A lot of the time. This is the difficulty of this is why we don't realize where the suffering is coming from. I have so many clients sit across from me and go, my relationships just do not work. My job, I just cannot, I cannot find my thing. My family, whatever it is, they're just, they don't know why things are not working. It's almost like this invisible suffering, this invisible string. And what I found to be a really common thread in all of it was not knowing who we are. And for me, when I was 24, I was an overachiever. That's how I coped with my childhood trauma. And people would look at my life and go, wow, I wish my daughter was like this. That's what my mom would get, you know, and she would be like,

you know, she'd be a proud mom. And my friends would be like, man, if only I could get the grades or have that relationship or whatever it was, because I appeared I wasn't perfect, but I appeared very put together very much like this is what what we need to all aspire for. And that is the most I've hated myself. And that was the most confusing part. Because you were doing everything right.

I was doing it right. And I've sacrificed everything to do it right. And I've never been unhappier. And this is why I don't think success in the traditional sense ever necessarily equates to happiness. I know people look at celebrities, they see individuals who are really successful and they go, if only then I would be happy. And I just want to say, chances are those people might not be happy. And also if they are, it's not because of that. It's because they're authentic

it's because they have meaning in life it's because they have relationships and connections that actually hold value and so I would say that that's one of the biggest struggles I'm seeing especially with social media emerging as well. I was going to say on that part because there's a really brilliant quote that everyone overuses but it's Jim Carrey when he says, I wish everyone could be rich and famous so they know that it wasn't the answer, or something along those lines. I feel like it's so true. I feel like most people look at that and they're like,

I still want it. You know that like, maybe, but I'll test it. I'll keep going. In the landscape that we're in with social media, it's democratized fame in a really fascinating way over the last decade, which means that people can go viral overnight. You know, it's no longer 15 minutes of fame.

It's like five seconds of fame. And on one hand, I don't know whether we can really process what that means or what that does to us. Yet we're all kind of chasing it. I'm sure you've observed as well that younger people are now aspiring for that kind of success. And don't get me wrong, there's a huge amount of benefit from it. It's the world that both you and I occupy. But the importance of doing it authentically and also having something that gives you a

sense of anchoring in yourself is so crucial. And I think that that's what we're missing, especially with AI developing and this sort of like having almost like an avatar version of ourselves. It's like, where is our humanity fitting into all of this? And it's almost like we're cutting away the very essence of what makes us human. But I also believe that there's more need for it than ever before.

What I wanted to kind of ask you on that was, how do you think people are coping with social media and the impact that has? Because I saw that you went and got a flip phone and I was like, that is iconic. I am going to get a flip phone. And also what I wanted to ask you about was boundaries, which is such a huge theme, but boundaries with ourselves.

We're always talking about boundaries in relationship or telling someone, no, I don't want to do that. I don't think we talk about that much about how to set boundaries for ourselves in what we're consuming, what we're thinking, what we're doing, what we're practicing. Yeah. And something I say, and it might not be a pop, like popular opinion is that I don't think social media itself is the issue. The issue is how we use social media.

Yeah. Social media can be an incredibly empowering, connecting, healthy thing if that's how we were to use it. But the issue is that most people's wounds, triggers, traumas, insecurities manifest through the way that they use social media. And I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to create a large impact, but wanting fame, fame itself, such an interesting concept to me, that is a very, very different sort of attitude than just wanting to create large impact. And so a lot of social media gets such a bad rep. And I think we're all a part of it. I like when people sit back and go,

social media is terrible. It's unhealthy. It's like, you're also part of what makes that unhealthy. If you're participating in a way where like, I hate it when girls post all this stuff where they're perfect. And then I look at your Instagram and all you're posting is really happy pictures with your husband and your child. Then we're also participating. So I think we can't go social media as the enemy, we're the victims. I do think we need to start taking accountability

for what we have created social media to be. And we have collectively done that. And the fact that we even have people going viral after five seconds, we are doing it. They're going viral because of us. And so I really like to point that out. And I don't know if everyone likes to hear it. And when it comes to boundaries, it's huge for social media. I don't think our brain was designed to intake or to absorb process, to rely and information and process everything that's being thrown at us and be able to discern and it's incredibly overwhelming

and unhealthy and this again is up to us to put that boundary up for me as a creator that's even more difficult because my work is on there, you will rarely find me on Instagram for fun. That ship has sailed. When did that ship sail? Really early on. I enjoy being on Instagram for my work, but then I think about work. When I'm on Instagram, I think about work and I see someone's post, I'm like, that's interesting. I can't shut it off and I learned that so I don't really use Instagram otherwise I'm not really scrolling on Instagram because it doesn't relax me so I was very lucky that way but the comparison game the growth game all the stuff can become really toxic and so something I recommend to people is like check your

analytics every two weeks or once a week instead of every day every hour of how you're performing. I think it's little things like that that I started to implement for myself to take care of my mental health and then the flip phone was a cherry on top. That was great. That was so liberating. So many comments were like, oh, do you not have the self-restraint? That's the first comment I got. The second was, don't you know how to use your iPhone? You can just block notifications or go in airplane mode. You don't need to get a new phone. You're being dramatic. So I loved it. Look, they're bringing up some really good points. And what I wanted to express was that it. Look, they're bringing up some really good points

And what I wanted to express was that it wasn't that I didn't know how to use my iphone. It's the fact Apple users since 2010 or whatever, but when I hold my iphone My association is work I have such a strong, intense stress response to my phone, that it's not even that I'm checking my emails or my Instagram, it's the fact that when I hold it, I think about work. It's the fact that when I hold it, my body registers that I'm holding this device, on

which I work on hours, like hour after hour. So it was me trying to step away from the association not so much my lack of ability not to check Instagram every hour. Yeah I think that's a really key distinction it's about you know recognizing the association that you personally have like for when you were saying that for me it's very much that I get distracted and I feel like I have to respond to everyone on every medium. So if an email comes in, but then it's, so I'm very bad at being like, no, no, no, I'm actually just focusing on this thing. And then it gives me this fractured attention. So last night, actually, I'd done an interview quite late and I felt quite frazzled yesterday. I was not feeling my best.

And I was like, you know what, after this, I'm going to go for a walk. I'm not bringing my phone. I'm just going to go to the pond in Barnes where I live and just like have a moment. And it was really fascinating because just by sitting there on my own without anything aside from my keys, I actually was able to register how I felt for the first time in a really long time. I actually felt good. I was like, oh, I actually feel kind of great. That's great.

I love that. But I was so used to sort of how I feel being dictated by my phone, which is a really awful thing to say. And that's the thing. I think we get so absorbed in it as this reflective tool of ourselves and allow it to dictate how we feel, that we have to kind of create these infrastructures and these boundaries so that we can, like you say, use it to our advantage and as the wonderful tool that it is versus it using us. Yeah, that's a powerful distinction. I think what a lot of people don't realize is when they pick up their phones. So when I got my flip phone initially, I would just pick it up. And then I'd

realize there's nothing to do on it. I don't even have like a snake, so you don't like the game. Like there's nothing. There's a calculator, a really, really shitty camera that you can't like see anything. And then like four people that know this phone number. So this was like a sacred phone that only like four people had a number to during the weekend. So the thing that blew my mind was that I would pick up like the first day, I probably picked up my phone like 45 times and then being like, oh, and I don't think we realized how often

we just and we're like, okay, just it's a habit. And I also realized for myself and I don't know if anyone will resonate is it's a self-soothing tactic too. Totally. Yeah. If I am like banging my head against a wall while I'm writing something, I will just pick up my phone and then either scroll at something or answer a text or just get out of the head space that is making me feel like I'm drowning.

I know that I was using social media that way. It was escapism. I was also using my phone. It was escapism. And I was also using my phone in general as escapism. I don't care if you're cleaning your photos out, which I do on flights all the time when I get bored. When you see me doing that, you know Sarah's had enough. When Sarah's writing for her whole 50,000 pictures, I'm just like, Oh my God, I need this to end. So that's one thing of we're not taught how to suit. Then we were given these devices, and especially children nowadays,

they never even have to attempt. We did. Our generation at least had to do it until our 20s. So I think if you find yourself taking up your phone, I know, I feel so grateful. I would love it if people would keep a tally of how many times they pick up their phone a day. I would just love to see that and then see if you can implement a different soothing mechanism that would be helpful.

I started doing that and there were some that were super effective just as a way to give ourselves a break and not become so dependent. What are some of the tactics that people, because I think it's always helpful to have something to replace it with, rather than being like, oh my God, I picked up my phone 850 times today. I know. What have I done?

What have I done? What have I done? Yeah, I love it. So for me, what I did, and I started doing this, it was around Christmas time, maybe three years ago, and I was reading the Harry Potter series, I don't know why, and I was in Amsterdam, it felt like a vibe, it was Christmas time, maybe three years ago, and I was reading the Harry Potter series. I don't know why. I was in Amsterdam.

It felt like a vibe. It was Christmas time. And what I noticed is when I had that urge to like, I just need to break free of whatever I'm doing or I'm feeling overwhelmed, I would literally read a paragraph. And now I do it with any book. I'll just have a book next to me almost at all times.

And when I need to change my focus, I will read. It doesn't matter how long I'll read for. It's like, I need to change my focus, I will read. It doesn't matter how long I'll read for. It's like, I'll see what my body needs. Sometimes it's literally like four sentences. Sometimes it's four pages. But then I would also feel like, wow, I'm doing something really nice for my body. I'm reading a book I really care about. I am regulating my nervous system. And all of those things seem very productive and very loving instead of wasting what should have been two minutes on TikTok, which ends up being 20 minutes on TikTok,

and then feeling overwhelmed and overstimulated. And so the book thing is huge, breathing is huge. I'm a tactile soother too. So I wear very comfy clothes when I'm usually working and I'll just like take a breath and I'll just like, I'll notice I'll do comfy clothes when I'm usually working and I'll just like take a breath and I'll just like, I'll notice I'll do this. And I was like, that's so weird. And I'd be like, oh no, I'm a tactile soother. So that feels really nice to me. That's so interesting.

I mean, I definitely do the breathing. I've not done the book thing, but I do whenever I'm going to sleep, I like rub my feet together. And I do it like automatically and it's just, it is like a self soothing technique that just gets me to see it. So maybe I'll start implementing that a little bit.

But I think that's really, really handy for people as a sort of takeaway. What I wanted to ask in that kind of bringing it back with the big existential questions of who am I and what is my purpose? How, when we have so many options available to us of who we can be, what we could be like, you know, going back a decade, it was still quite, you know, the people you knew, I guess we had Facebook and everything, but it was it was manageable, you know, your horizons were in sight, whereas now it's like,

everything feels so gigantic. Even if you are doing something that's really aligned and wonderful, chances are you're probably following someone or seeing something that's making you question that. So it's quite hard to be able to discern who we are. And so what is your kind of steps, if you have any, for helping people uncover their authenticity? Yeah, for sure. Again, twofold answer. I think when we imagine authenticity, we're really rigid about the concept in terms of you did it right or you failed. It's very black and white. It's kind of like an exam that you either did or didn't do.

And when we're making decisions, we often feel like there is the one right decision and everything else is wrong. And this is why we have so much anxiety about decision making. And something I love is Sartre had this example where he said a student came to me and said I can either go and fight in the war and be a small contribution to a larger cause or I can stay with my elderly ill mother and play a huge role in a minor cause. What is the right answer? And Sartre just said, the right answer is the answer you choose, which I'm sure the boy was not impressed with.

That's not what I came here for. That is not what I came here for. But what he meant was the authentic choice is the choice that you own and that you stand behind. It's a choice that you made with intentionality. Both things objectively are great. There isn't this universal law that is like, this is the right thing for Sarah. It gives you so many options and all you can do is find an option that is yours. And I love the term authenticity because it comes from Heidegger, which a lot of

people don't know. And the German version and the German translation, from my understanding, I'm not German, is that it means to own, ownness. That's what authenticity actually means. It means responsibility. And so many of us use authenticity more like an excuse than responsibility in terms of like, I'm just being authentic, you know? And you say something that you really shouldn't or you're doing something you aren't.

You're actually being a dick. Yeah, you're like, no, you're actually kind of an asshole. I'm not sure that that's. And so for me, it's just restructuring kind of like, no, you're actually kind of an asshole. I'm not sure that that's... And so for me, it's just restructuring kind of like, authenticity is whatever you want it to look like, and that might bring you more anxiety, but it's more, it's not that you're gonna fail this universal exam, it's just that you need to be

really committed and intentional about what you're doing. I think that that's just really powerful and really important. If you're someone who is really struggling to figure out who you are, I often talk about three connection points we have with ourselves, our mind, our emotions, and our body. And I'll often get individuals to rank which one they feel the most disconnected to individuals to rank which one they feel the most disconnected to and which one they feel the most connected to. And that's your starting point because I think trying to get to know yourself emotionally and physically and spiritually and emotionally all at once is incredibly overwhelming. Especially if you realize you're disconnected from all of this. Yeah, of course.

It's going to bring up so much stuff that you don't want to see and stuff that you've been avoiding and hiding from for a really long time. It's about just observation. Really sometimes it's as basic as observation and awareness and checking in with yourself. I can totally give examples of this if that would be helpful. But the last thing I just want to say about who you are is people will go, okay, I don't know how to answer that question. How does anyone ever answer the question, who am I? And here's a hack, what I consider an existential hack.

what I consider an existential hack. As the festive season unfolds, there's no better time to embrace rituals that ground and center you. For me, lighting a Woodwick candle has become a cherished part of my daily routine. The soft crackle of the wooden wick, like a comforting fireside glow, helps me pause and reconnect with myself,

creating a sense of indulgent calm. This winter, Woodwick's luxurious fragrances add even more depth to my rituals. Antiquarian, with its woody notes of cinnamon bark, white cardamom and ginger, evokes a sense of mystery and tranquility. Gilded sands blending bergamot, fig and peppercorn brings a warm elegance to any moment, making them the perfect gift for you or a loved one. Whether you're starting your day with intention or winding down in the evening, lighting a woodwick candle elevates these rituals into something truly special. It's not just about the fragrance, it's about creating a sensory experience that anchors you in the present.

Discover the perfect scent for your rituals this season at www.woodwick.yankycandle.co.uk and make every moment this winter one of luxury for yourself and those around you. yourself and those around you. You don't answer this question with words, you answer this question with the way you live your life. That is the only way to answer this question. There is no word, no label that can truly represent all that you are, but who you are is how you express yourself. It's how you exist in this world. And I think that's a really important thing to bring to people's attention

just so that they're not stressing out, being like, I cannot complete this sentence. It's not a sentence. I love that. I love that. And it's also, it's in everything that you do, the way you show up for like how you make your morning coffee or how you interact with a friend, like all those little things.

And I think that that's a really beautiful takeaway for people that just to have that slight mindset shift. What I'm curious about is I'm a big believer that, you know, authenticity is a journey often of coming home to ourselves and reconnecting to past versions of ourselves or aspects of ourselves that we discarded in our young years because they weren't cool or they didn't fit in or they were weird. You were reading existential books when you were 11. You were like, I don't know where that places me. Because I very much felt that way. And then in my 20s, I kind of put on this persona

and then got very lost in that persona. And a huge part of my own journey has been reconnecting with that past little me, but then also the balance between aspiration and how do you manage those two things about kind of being really true to who we've always been innately whilst also seeking our own greatness or excellence and kind of aspiring to be the best versions of ourselves? I love that question. And I'm going to say something really non romantic and very unsexy. romantic and very unsexy. And that is that. Because I love the way you described that. It feels like a warm hug and I'm about to open the windows and let the breeze in. I

don't believe that we were created or born with an essence. You don't. I don't. Existentialists don't. So the difference between essentialism and existentialism is that essentialism believes that you are given an essence and either you become it or you don't. You fail or you pass. Sartre said you first exist and then you create your essence. The essence is who you are. It is who you're becoming, but it cannot be outside of the choices you've made and the way that you've shown up. Otherwise it means it's not fully in your control and then you have to deal with questions

of who gave you that essence. And existentialists are known to be pretty harsh in the way they see the world, but I kind of love it because it's so liberating to me that I am not meant to live any other former version or higher version. I am just meant to play and experiment and discover and create who I am. This is why I don't like the term finding yourself, because that means it's already there and all you have to do is recognize it. It's outside of you. It's why I keep trying to like start a movement. We'll see how it goes.

I'll create yourself because I think it's a lot more empowering in my opinion. So, of course, this is kind of a theoretical difference maybe between the two of us in terms of like the worldview, but I love the existential spin on it. It's very counter mainstream right now. I was going to say, because I feel like the mainstream sort of popular movement is very like, be your best self, discover your higher self. You know, manifestation's a massive thing and kind of getting your dream life

and being the dream version of you. But this feels, I really like this. It feels very, very Saturnian in its principles because it's about, you know, responsibility, authority, autonomy. How do you know responsibility authority autonomy how do you think those things why do you think they're not as popular well I mean they obviously are but why do you think people are no they're not as popular I feel like I'm answering my own question why would people want to avoid

taking responsibility for themselves? Sarah, what is this nonsense? I literally have nothing else to add. I think it's because he places such responsibility on you. And it also feels what it does, it takes away meaning. So there's something really comforting and meaningful in becoming this grander version of yourself that your future self is calling you to, that your former self is calling you to. It's like, it kind of becomes people's religion to an extent. I don't know how to say it. Like it becomes their meaning. It forms that there's like

a pathway that they're on, which is not necessarily real, but it's like, oh, okay, no, I know where I'm heading. She's at the end of this road. Perfect. And that is their goal. And for some people, that is their meaning. When you realize, and if you choose to believe that that doesn't exist, it means you also now have to figure out why the hell you're living your life. Like, why bother? And there is, I remember, I think I may have, yeah, I did not may have, I wrote this in the book, but I remember being in grad school, sitting in like a theories class my first semester, and what they did was compare different modalities and how they responded to a suicidal client.

And they would see a therapist like go full empathy, go full solution focus, go full whatever. And this is before I knew existential therapy was a thing, my first introduction. The therapist sits there, stares at the client and goes, why don't you kill yourself? And I remember being like, are we allowed to do this? This feels like not something I'm allowed to do. And I loved it because it was so provocative. And they're not saying like, hey, do exactly that. But what he was asking in a really provocative ways, why are you living? He didn't say go kill yourself. He said, why don't you kill yourself? And I think it's such an interesting question and I loved it because what the existentialists

did was go head straight into meaning and go what is the source of your pain? What is the source of not wanting to exist? What is existence for you? And if you don't know why you're existing, of course you're not going to want to exist. And we have seen so much research on lack of meaning correlating with suicide. And so I think we need to take it super seriously. But for me, that was like a wake up call. And I still think about that example all the time. But yet people don't want to be asked that question. And this is why existentialism, not so hot. Yeah, because I guess, you know, the systems that govern us are very much about an authority being external. That's how the world is successfully operated. So if you give people full autonomy

over their lives and governance over their decisions, I don't know what that means for the sort of the people that society work. Society at large. Yeah. And you know, I talk about how our society benefits from our self loss. That's a real thing and how society perpetuates our self loss. Can we unpack that a little bit? Sure, of course we can.

So let's keep it within like an immediate system or community. Sometimes individuals are encouraged to be lost or inauthentic because it benefits those around them. So a family system, let's take that as an example, it really benefits your family to, let's say, not have a different religious belief than everyone else, not have a different sexual preference than your other siblings. It benefits them, whatever it is, it benefits them for you to fit the mold of the rest of the family members.

And so they might not ask you questions that will get you to explore your true authenticity. They might not create the space in which you need to express yourself. And they will do all these things without being fully aware that what they're doing is boxing you in and giving you a lot of, they're imposing an identity on you. And now you can extend that to like education institutions, religion, politics, whatever you want. And so sometimes it is accidental, sometimes it's on purpose, and it perpetuates this inability to figure out who we are. And then when we have the balls to try to figure it out,

and then we show up differently, they don't see us. I don't know if this has ever happened to you. But I know when I started my healing journey, I felt like, wow, I'm a really different person. And yet, no one reflected that back to me. The way they spoke about me was as if I was the same person as four years ago, or I would go to reunions and this was a huge trigger for me, people would bring up stories from grade seven. Oh my God, I relate to this so, and you're like,

what's going on? I get so triggered because I'm like, the fact that you still think that that seven-year-old is even remotely relevant. Yeah, yeah, is mind blowing. And so what they do is they box you in and the reality is you cannot become your authentic self in isolation. But also you can't, when you are,

I think that's such an important thing that you've mentioned because when we talk about, you know, discovering who we are and being authentic selves, and yet we're having to occupy places and spaces where we're constantly being told, no, this is who you are. This is who I know you to be. This is who the version of you that makes me feel safe. So I'm going to keep pushing you back and keep reminding you of that. And no, you cannot grow and change. So that's super challenging, whether it's coming from friendships, work, family, all the above.

For sure. And it's also people don't wanna see your change because then it makes them realize they need to change a lot of the time, right? They don't wanna see you communicating well because then they're like, oh man, does that mean I'm not communicating well? Like it's, when you're like, oh man, does that mean I'm not communicating well? Like it's when you're authentic, you are showing people they're in authenticity.

And this is why inauthentic people don't want to be around authenticity. It is way too triggering or confusing for them. Yeah. And a classic is like the bitchiness when someone does, you know, and people then just start kind of being like, oh, she thinks she's this or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But you mentioned a second ago that we can't be our authentic selves in isolation. What do you mean by that? I interrupt you. So, no, it's okay. I'm glad you remembered what I was going to say. So something you talk about is people envision their journey of authenticity is like going to say. So something to talk about is people envision

their journey of authenticity is like going to a cave, meditating, observing, getting into action and being like, ta-da. So that would be true. I'm ready. It's like me in my hotel room. I'm done. So that would be true. Authenticity was maybe static, but it's not. So that's a different point. But you actually need other people. This is a very Heidegger thing, but how you express yourself in the world is who you are. Therefore, if you're isolated from the world, you cannot become yourself. The self is in the expression. And so a lot of people will think I'm such a calm, patient, loving person. And then someone will cut

them off and they're not calm, loving or patient. They're flipping people up, they're honking and they're like screaming and they're very upset. And then they don't know what to do with it. Because they're like, okay, the way I showed up and the way I conceptualize myself are two different things. And in those instances, you have two options. One, change your conceptualization into an angry, bitter driver. Or two, change your action. And this is the mirroring you do for yourself. But the larger mirroring is what society does for you. Someone, anyone has to acknowledge this new version of you

or it won't fully exist for you. You will feel crazy, you will feel isolated. Even one person to fully reflect who you are and your character and the way you show up in the world is crucial in you actually solidifying the sense of self. Yeah, and I also think it's important to note that it's so much more rewarding having even just that one person fully seeing you than it is having an audience of people who don't, who don't really reflect who you truly are. But what you just mentioned reminded me of this sort of rise of individualism

and how we are all quite me-centric and the important distinction of actually, we're wired to be part of a community and a tribe and we need people. Before we had, I think it was, I read that before we had mirrors, my only way of knowing who I am is by you seeing me and giving me some sort of reaction. I'm like, okay, this is who I am in the world.

Okay, I get it. But now it's all completely changed. I think that we perhaps don't recognize how important that is, or we don't have the tools or like the way of showing up in that capacity. For sure, this is where social media is really dangerous. And I have friends who are,

are TikTokers or Instagramers and huge followings. And some of them like play characters or do little skits or the way that they present on social media is a persona for a lot of people. And what happens when everyone is reflecting back a character? And that's what happens on social media all the time. It's like, they reflect back only one version of you

or not even a real version of you, but like a version of you that you just put out in the world. That is so damaging because you're constantly being reflected something that you're not. So you better make sure that your close circle is reflecting over time. Because that's how people lose themselves.

Think about, it's where fame comes in and where all these things come in because you become the person that people have constructed in their minds. I mean, I did, you wouldn't know this, but I did reality TV in my early 20s. What? Yeah, and that's exactly what happened.

I'm googling tonight. I know. No, please don't. And then that's what happened. I became, like, it was like a sort of parody version of me, became super famous, and I was so at odds with it, because I had no anchoring and I was participating in creating that version of myself but it was when I was sort of the most unhappy and I feel

that we're all doing that in our own or not we're all but a lot of people are doing that on social media and it's a strange thing because you can get very you get an applause and you get validation, but you're like, but I'm not truly allowing yourself to be seen for who you are. And that can create kind of internal dichotomy. But the next thing I wanted to ask you about is relationships because I feel like that's such a key thing that people are navigating.

And there's a lot of conflicting messages I feel out there. There's a huge amount more awareness of you know love languages, how we're supposed to show up in relationship, but what are some of the things you've noticed in the work that you do of like recurring problems that people might have or perhaps unrealistic demands from a partnership. Yeah. I think one of the most unrealistic expectations or demands I've seen is that your partner will fulfill all your needs. It's like they will be your best friend, they will be your lover, they will be your therapist. They will be your business consultant. They will be your...

Like, it just goes on and on. And I just don't... Like, at what point? And I think it came with the movement of like, romantic relationships should be the most important relationship in your life. And you should always prioritize your boyfriend over your girlfriends. And I think there's such a weird societal isolation that we do when someone couples up, like we kind of isolate them from the rest of the world. And then we place these insane expectations

on each other that one person could not possibly do. And even if they could, they shouldn't, because that's like a full time job. So unless you're paying them really shouldn't be doing that. And I think what we need to realize is like, couples need to start defining what a relationship is. What is a really what is a romantic relationship for you? What are the needs that you expect that person to fulfill and only them? And which needs are you going to outsource? Or which needs does your partner want you to outsource? Because they might go, sweetie,

honey, boo boo, I do not, I cannot do this. And it's a strain on our relationship. Can you please go to the Taylor Swift show with your girlfriend? And you know, instead of being like, how dare he not support her love for Taylor Swift and do this romantic gesture for people to chill out and be like, hey, it's okay. Maybe there's someone else that can fulfill this need to go and scream lyrics with thousands of other people. And so that's a silly example, but I think that's a huge pitfall that I see. Well, let's take that one step further,

because I think that's quite like, I think every man out there would be like, yes, I shouldn't go to the stupid date. But what if it's something that's very, a sort of societal pressure or expectation of what a relationship should be? For instance, living together is the next stage of an evolving relationship. It's what you do and then the construct of marriage, children. What is your

sort of perspective on dismantling those massive things that really are a sort of badge of honor of a relationship kind of developing? And if you don't do those things, people are like, oh, well, that's a red flag or something's wrong. Yeah, they're not going to last. My favorite thing I've ever heard is a married couple that had houses next to each other. And I remember being like, how crazy, I remember being in my 20s being like, oh my God, that's so crazy. And I can't be healthy. In my 30s. I'm like, Oh my god, that's so no, but I think what I really like about that example, which I think is quite extreme is that they defined what being married was

like, and what worked for them. And a lot of the traditions we have around relationships was tied to survival and financial security and tradition way back and I just think we live in a different society. So it's okay if you want To restructure what your relationship looks like or if you really resonate with the traditional type of way go for it I just think we need to stop judging each other I think going do we want to live together and why why is like, well, it's the next natural step. If that is the only reason you can come up with, probably shouldn't be living together. What is the meaning in living together? What is the benefit? What is the new expectation?

Do you want to take on that new expectation? What are the difficulties that come with it? People don't take these decisions very seriously because as you said, they're laid out for them and they're just expected to do them. Same with marriage and same with kids. Something that I feel very passionate about is talking about the fact that women can choose not to have children.

I know that sounds really basic, but most women still feel pressure. Or when I tell people that I don't want children, I get two responses. One, you're going to change your mind, which at this point I'm like, I've been saying this for like 17 years, but cute. Love it. Okay.

And two, it's, and this is from some of the meaner ones. It's like, well, then you're not really a woman. Like you're not really fulfilling like what is inherently and naturally like a natural thing for you and I'm never offended I'm just always super shocked that this would be a response Today about someone making a choice and having the audacity to say Right now I don't think I'll ever have children that might change but right now I Don't think that that's something I would like to do. And I think we all need to start speaking up so that others can also speak up. Right?

Because we all just sit there quietly. It's one of those decisions that you can't undo. You know, I've actually had so many interviews on the podcast, I feel like I'm becoming like an anti-antimaternal podcast. But it's such a mess. And I didn't know that that's actually was your stance on it. How long have you felt that way? Forever.

I have never, ever, ever wanted children. Yeah, because it's something I'm thinking about a lot. Because I feel like I'm 34. I'm that age where it's happening and people are doing it. I'm finding it hard to discern whether I actually want it, if I'm completely honest. And isn't that just a bizarre thing? Because again, it's like so conditioned that that's what a woman does and you'll regret it if you don't and don't leave it too late and there's never a perfect time. And yeah, it's a lot. It's sort of there in the back of, I think, most

women's minds. Of course. I honestly think I'm very lucky to have had such a strong opinion on it really young. I've never really toyed with the idea or had to make a conscious choice because it's always just been something that didn't resonate with me. And I mean, in five years, I'm like, I have a kid. I'm just kidding. I wasn't being my authentic love. No, I don't know. But I think part of it made it easier for me because I'm also, I will admit this, I have a pretty bad phobia of all things pregnancy related. And so sometimes I do wonder that if I didn't have that, would I feel different? I don't think so because the commitment seems overwhelming. And you know, it just doesn't seem right for me.

However, I do also have this like insane fear of pregnancy and birth that just probably does not help the situation. Okay, interesting. That's interesting. And what about marriage? So I've been married and divorced during my rock bottom. So that's something that I'm still sort of processing in terms of I don't, I am not one of those women that is like picking out her wedding dress and is like, can't wait to get

married again. I don't know if I would ever like to, I'm still, you know, trying to decipher where my feelings are coming from. Is that a little bit about my previous experience or is it just because now where I'm in my life I don't see partnerships that way. Again, it's that one I am still trying to kind of decide. And I think it'll be kind of a day by day, see what's authentic, what's not. I don't feel pressure about that.

That's good. And for people that, because I know you speak a lot about, you know, how many people are sort of participating in creating a life that they don't actually want. And I think that really ties into everything that we've discussed. And I would say, I would argue that that's particularly pervasive for women. What an art audience is largely women, what would be your advice for someone that feels like they are being shoehorned into an existence, but they're shoehorning themselves as well, that doesn't quite fit. But they're in their 30s or whatever age they might be and they're like, I think those 30s or as we get older, it always brings this

sense of, but it's too late to turn back or I can't do something different now. What are people going to think if I suddenly change course or end this relationship or whatever it might be? What is some of your advice for that particular piece? I think we need to stop living our lives for other people, particularly as women. You know, maybe your mom's friend will like you more. Maybe, you know, people will think you're a better girlfriend if you do a certain thing and get engaged or married. But the end of the day is you have to live your life. I did it right. Again, I go back to that. Like I did what I was supposed to

do. And I was deeply, deeply unhappy. And the reason I'm sharing that is that at the end of the day, you're the one going home to your own life. You're the one living it day in and day out. And at some point that will outweigh the expectations and the pressures. I say, you know, let's get that done and over with. When we're younger than individuals who hit 60, 70, and then go and completely change their lives. I like how we used to be like quarter life crisis, and we would almost mock it. No, that's just the threshold. 45 was the threshold of how much people could bear. Can sustain. Yeah.

Sustain an inauthentic existence. I actually have so much compassion for that. I don't think that should be a joke. It's like these people felt like they weren't living their life. That's huge. And so my advice is always live your life for you. I know that's incredibly hard, but no one else truly matters and no one else has to do it. I hear people who get married to someone because everyone's

like, he's so great. He's so great. Oh my God, you're never going to find someone else. Guess what? You're the only one that has to sleep next to him every night. You're the one that has to kiss him. You're the one that has to clean his toilet. You're the one that has to figure out his work habits. Those other girls who are like so gung-ho for you to get married, they're not here. They're not in the house. They're not interacting with him every day. Like, I just like to use those examples as like, it is so not worth living your life for someone else. And I hope that if you are thinking, Oh my god, it's too late, I'm 30. No, no, no, no, this is the prime time. You're

young, you're strong. I honestly think that this problem won't go away. If that's how you feel now, chances of you feeling different 10 years from now 20 20 years from now, 30 years from now are so low that you might as well change the course of your destiny if you want to say or course of your life and actually enjoy the next 30 years. I'm not sure that was helpful, but hopefully motivational. I think it was really helpful. I think it was so sad like a motivational talk. Yeah, I love that.

Well, thank you so much, Sarah. I feel like I could talk to you for days. I'm going to make this happen. I'm gonna come to Sydney. We're gonna do something together. I think that would be fantastic. I am so excited. Everything you say really deeply resonates

and I know that it will with our audience as well. So I really appreciate you spending the time with us today. Thank you so much for having me, it's so much fun. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Saturn Returns as much as I enjoyed having it and if you want to delve further into Sarah's work you can find her on Instagram at themillennial.therapist and you can also buy her book it's on me wherever you get your books so I hope that you enjoyed it and if you did please share it with a friend who you think might find it useful or write us a review or

put us up on Instagram I absolutely adore seeing where you guys are listening to the show, whether it's on your morning walks or your commute to work. It really, really makes me happy and it's nice to see the community being built in real life. So thank you so much for everyone that remember you are not alone. Goodbye.