Saturn Returns with Caggie - Sober Living with Millie Mackintosh

Episode Date: May 26, 2025

*TRIGGER WARNING: SEXUAL ASSAULT* In this candid episode of Saturn Returns, Caggie reconnects with one of her oldest friends and author of ⁠Bad Drunk, Millie Mackintosh, for an honest conversation about sobriety, identity, and reclaiming self-worth. Together, Caggie and Millie reflect on their shared past, from the early days of Made in Chelsea to their twenties, and how those formative years set the stage for both personal unravelling and profound transformation. Before reality TV and public life, Caggie and Millie were best friends navigating early adulthood side by side, from nights out to gap year adventures. Their long-standing bond brings a unique depth to this episode, as they revisit the versions of themselves they’ve since outgrown and reflect on the power of rewriting your story. Millie shares the intimate journey behind her book Bad Drunk: a brave, unfiltered exploration of her relationship with alcohol, the shame that often lies beneath the surface, and the healing that comes with speaking your truth. What unfolds is a conversation rooted in compassion, connection, and the courage it takes to reclaim your sense of self. Topics Covered: 🪐 Millie’s path to sobriety and writing Bad Drunk 🪐 Alcohol as a coping mechanism for trauma and anxiety 🪐 Reframing shame and embracing vulnerability 🪐 Debunking the “fun drunk” myth 🪐 Panic attacks, medication, and mental health in early recovery 🪐 Navigating friendship, fame, and public scrutiny 🪐 The quiet freedom that comes from choosing yourself Whether you're sober-curious or simply seeking deeper self-connection, this episode offers wisdom, warmth, and the reminder that healing is always possible. — Thank you to our sponsors, Fushi, for making this episode possible! I created a beauty blend with Fushi to give you that glowy, dewy look. It features Fushi’s freshly pressed, organic oils, which I swear by! This glow-boosting ritual is all about simplicity, self-care, and deeply nourishing your skin.  Shop ‘Caggie’s Glow Ritual’ bundle now at fushiwellbeing.com and get 20% off with the code CAGGIE20. If this episode resonated, don’t forget to follow, share, and leave a review. Your feedback helps us reach more people seeking clarity, growth, and self-understanding. Discover more from Saturn Returns: 🪐 Instagram, YouTube and TikTok 🪐 Order the Saturn Returns book: Click here 🪐 Join our community newsletter: Sign up here 🪐 Explore all things Saturn Returns: Visit our website 🪐Follow Caggie on Instagram: @caggiesworld

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Or just click the link in the show notes. Here's to slowing down, tuning in, and letting your skin glow naturally. Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. Today I am joined by a very special guest and that is Millie McIntosh. Millie is a mother, author, entrepreneur and public figure and first and foremost she is one of my oldest friends. For those that have followed me from the beginning, the origins. Millie and I both appeared together on the reality show Made in Chelsea back, oh my goodness,

I don't even want to admit how long ago it was. But what perhaps people don't know is that we were actually best friends before that show. Millie was the reason I did it. We did our gap year together, we went travelling, we have had so many experiences that we've shared together. And so it's such a joy to get to sit down with her because I feel like when you have that history with someone and you have that bond, it's always there.

It's just this felt presence of comfort, I guess. And even though we've gone on our different journeys and had these different chapters in between, I feel like there is this kind of, I don't know, we kind of have this humor about our history and this understanding of each other and the different versions of each other that we both have witnessed,

which we get into in this episode because as many of you will know, Millie has recently released her first book, Bad Drunk. And it's a subject that I've spoken about a lot on here, the kind of the Sober Curious movement and how pivotal that was to my own experience. And it has been hugely life changing for Millie. life-changing family. And I literally read that book so quickly because not only is it a fantastic read, but it also was like I was there for so many of those moments. And I also relate to so much of what she speaks about in the book. And it's a very raw, honest. I feel like she's incredibly exposed. You know, she exposes herself in a way that I was like, wow, that's really admirable. Because as we all know, when it comes to drinking and alcohol, there's like a whole layer of shame that comes with it.

And some of the things that we might have done when we're not really fully conscious or aware. And I love that she goes there. And I feel that that's been a really amazing part of her own healing journey and the evolution of her really. So we kind of explore what it means to rewrite the stories we've told ourselves and find purpose in a new chapter and reflect on, you know, some of the things that we experience together. And again, she really opens up about her relationship with alcohol,

which I feel like a lot of our audience will deeply relate to. It is such a personal thing. Wherever you land on the spectrum, because it is a huge spectrum, I hope that this episode helps you kind of navigate where you're currently at and make the decisions that you need to make for yourself. So enjoy. Millie Mack, welcome back.

Thanks for having me back. Have you had any other repeat guests? We've had a few, but not many. Yeah, but I feel special. You're special. And I'm so excited because we're talking about your new book. How do you feel? Bad drunk? It's amazing. How have you reacted to it? I would love to know. Oh my god, so I got back from Dubai on the weekend and I'm not joking when I said I came back to like 50 parcels filled with books and I opened yours and I was like, okay, I'm

just going to start this now. So I knew that we were speaking this week and I'm not actually the best reader. No pun intended. I binged it. Like I literally, every page I was turning, cause also one it's really well written, it's very honest, it's very vulnerable. But because I was there for so many of the experiences, I was like, it was just so, yeah, it was like very different, you know, because I was like, I know what you were going through.

You've lived it. I've lived it on like very different, you know, because I was like, I know what you've lived it. I've lived it on like a personal level from my own experience, but then I was also there with you and some of those experiences. But then to kind of hear your reflections on it, which I guess we've kind of talked about, but not really. And I think we have such similar experiences of like, our teenage years, then obviously we have such similar experiences of like our teenage years. Then obviously we have the Made in Chelsea chapter and this, you know, using alcohol to kind of shape shift as you, as I often say, to kind of be liked and to fit in. But that the dichotomy that that kind of caused.

But I was really impressed and proud of you for how much you showed up on the page because it's not easy and it is super vulnerable and there's so much shame I felt from some of the things that I did in my days. And you actually you went there. Thank you. It was really nerve wracking writing it. I bet. But I actually put more stuff in there than we did an edit and had to take some out.

Because it's me decided to, because you're just like, it was a bit too much of a vulnerability. I literally just, in the most honest way, word vomited every truth. They're like all the ugly dark ones. Because it must be very cathartic. And then was like, OK, there's let's just take it down like 20%. Yeah. My mum's response was, oh, gosh, I think you're very honest.

And I was like, I was like, that's not everything. You're like, this is the PG version. This is the PG version. But I'm so glad I've done it. And the reaction's been amazing. And how do you feel now that it's out? Quite relieved. And the things I thought people would make me make

a big deal about aren't such a big deal. Like some of the things you talk about in the book. I didn't know because I talk about sexual assault in the book and I've done a lot of therapy around it and I feel like I've done the healing I need to. I did the healing I needed to in order to put it in the book and feel strong about it, but it has allowed me to really let go of the shame that I carried. Are you comfortable talking about that experience? Yeah, because I think also when you pair something like that with what I always knew that you went through

to a degree that I just didn't experience with the press and like when you kind of combine those things, I can imagine that when this came out, you were probably anticipating that they would then like use that information and make it like a tabloid story, which would just perhaps be hugely triggering and upsetting because it's taking something out of your hands. Exactly. But for those that might not have read the book yet, would you be able to share like what happened quite early on?

Yeah. And just going back to what you just said, I feel that having the book after having years of the tabloids talking about my personal life, like basically growing up with my embarrassing moments being in the tabloids all through my 20s. Doing the books actually allowed me to really take my power back. Totally, yeah. So the reason I included the sexual assault in the book

was because it's really linked to when I started drinking. I felt that it was relevant because it's the first time that I got really drunk. I was about 14 and I was at a party and thought I could handle a couple of drinks. I'd had alcohol before, but you know how it is, like you have a couple, you maybe think that you're okay, and then the next thing you're blackout drunk and you don't, you have like no memory, you don't remember. But I went from being okay, having some wine to then starting like puking and passing out and I was put in a bedroom. My parents were told to come and get me and somebody who I didn't know who wasn't my boyfriend.

My boyfriend was at the party, but one of his friends got on top of me when I was unconscious, undid my clothes and I don't know what happened because I wasn't conscious. But when I came around he was on top of me and his hands were on me under my clothes and I had to like fight him off me. And then he was shouting insults at me. I just remember being so embarrassed and feeling ashamed and thinking like, oh no, like I've done this, like I've done something wrong. And when my parents collected me, I just was so embarrassed, I didn't speak to them.

I just sat in the car feeling ashamed, just like washing over and over me. And I never told them about it. And I don't really think we even like spoke in much about me being drunk. Obviously they knew I was drunk. They knew I was embarrassed about it. And the next day I was hung over

and obviously felt dreadful. And we just didn't talk about it. I felt like they knew I was already feeling bad enough about getting that drunk at a party. They didn't kind of lecture me on, they didn't tell me off. But I wish I'd talked to them. And I went back to boarding school the next day and it would have been on like that, you know, the day after it happened. And I didn't tell anyone there because I was

being bullied and didn't really have any good friends at that point. So I just carried the shame around. And then every time I drank, I seemed to drink, I seemed to drink, can't talk properly. Every time I drank alcohol, I would binge drink and then repeat similar behavior or I would be so drunk that I wouldn't remember what I'd done or how I got into someone's bed or how I got home or how I got bruises all over my body. I really like not having any regard for my safety, which makes me so sad now. But a lot of the healing I've been doing has been about forgiving myself and having a lot more compassion for young Millie.

Yeah, because I think it's, I mean, thank you for sharing that, but it's such a horrible thing for anyone to have to go through. But I also think it's quite probably, I hate to say this, but like more common than we'd like to admit, but because nobody speaks about it. And I think often we carry the shame that because we allowed ourselves to get into that position that we kind of caused it in some ways. That we were asking for it. Yeah, and there is that narrative, isn't there? Like we still see that today. And I think the way that we grew up was this quite like,

I don't know whether it's still happening to the same degree, but there's quite a binge drinking culture where we kind of normalize that we would black out and not remember what we did. And I have spoken to like a couple of, you know, women like in our kind of circle and that we've grown up with. And it seems to be like everyone has like some kind of experience like that, that creates this deep sense of shame

because it was never really addressed. You know, no one ever said, what happened to you was not okay. And it was never really addressed. You know, no one ever said what happened to you was not okay. And it was not your fault. And so you kind of carry it around and shoulder the responsibility. That's like, I think shame is one of those emotions that you really just push down and try not to feel and try to avoid.

And the shame I would feel about my behavior when I drank and how I just how I was when I was drunk, you know, how many hungover days I've experienced when I've woken up without feeling of shame. And I just continued the same behavior for like most of my 20s as well. Yeah, I mean, and so did I. I was there with you. I remember reading the book, there was one story when you were talking about being at Wagamama's with your mom. Yeah, I know you were there, but I didn't want to like, I didn't want to drag.

I didn't want to drag. But do you remember? I also remember. We'd woken up somewhere and still in the clothes from the night before and we'd gone back to yours and changed, but we, I don't think we'd slept. And we, my mum had come up for the day to see me and I think I forced you to come with me and we went to lunch at Wag Mama and I just I could barely speak. I went green.

Because as much as I totally understand the bad drunk thing and like the way you spoken about it, I'm like, I was very similar. But then also like reading some of these things, like we did have some quite funny memories. Because also we did our travels together. And when you spoke about like how, you know, you had the issues with your gut and Candidate, I remember when we were in like Bali or something, and we'd have had one night out and then I was like, making, you know, I was like, let's, we're going out again. You'd be like throwing up or like having a really upset stomach. Like pull yourself together. And just like

we're here, we're going to go out and drink buckets and like, oh my God. And it was, it was like, it just really set us up for an unhealthy... Do you remember the full moon party? I had like a massive panic attack and just couldn't enjoy it. It was just so overwhelming. Yeah, I do remember. I remember you having an amazing time and I was just like, why can't I enjoy it? And that's when my anxiety had started to really show up, but I didn't understand what it was. Yeah. I don't think mine had started then.

Yeah, I got it first. Yeah. I think you had, like, quite clear indications, especially physical... Yeah, all the stomach things I would get. Exactly. Whereas I'd say mine was more... probably around, like, the Made in Chelsea days, where it really just went into a different gear.

And I felt like I was using it to escape. I always think like people drink, like you can drink for one of two reasons is to remember the situation and to kind of celebrate it or it's to escape what you're feeling. I think when it starts to become something of an escapism, it's a slippery slope and similar to you. I know in the book you referred to seeing a picture of yourself at a wedding as if you were possessed. And I was like, this is like a couple of possessed creatures running around. I remember Talia, she was saying like, she was like, you just had this thing where you'd switch. Yeah. And you'd have an alter ego.

Yeah. I think the way we're both quite similar when we drink is that we both change a lot. Like we switch to alter egos. And yours actually had the name. Katrina. Katrina. I haven't seen Katrina for quite a while. No, I don't know if she's still while. I have fun memories of Katrina, but also kind of terrified. What do you think?

Because that's not something everyone gets. No, like Hugo doesn't, when he drinks, he's just Hugo, but like, but like a bit more, you know, a bit more merry. Yeah. But he doesn't change into a different person. Yeah. I think it's one of those signs that maybe you should drink less or, or look at if alcohol really works for you, if you're someone that completely changes.

Because I think if you do, if you do change into a different personality, then you're someone that completely changes. Because I think if you do change into a different personality, then you're likely to regret things that you say or do when you're drunk. Which we both definitely did. I'm curious to know, because I have spoken about this a lot and I have them still today, even though I feel like I've healed my relationship with alcohol, which we can go into.

Because also you reference in the book, you said like a friend of mine who's sober curious. And I was like, is that me? I was like, that's me again. But I have these like, I call them phantom hangovers because I have these dreams. I that when you're still drinking, I have them too. They're like nightmares.

Oh, I get them too. They're horrible. Horrible. And I honestly get them. I'd say I get them once a week, you know, and they went from almost being every night at the beginning when I kind of stopped drinking for a while. I think it's like, it's trauma from our drinking days. Do you think? Because it's what is your, because my story is always, it's always the same, it's slightly different, but it's in essence saying, like, I'll wake up and I'll be like, what happened last night? And people are like, oh my God, do you not

remember? Like you started drinking and then you did this and then you did that. And then you like ruined this person's life and I called this person a bitch. And I'm like, really? And I can't deny it because I just don't know. And whilst it's an extreme version, it's not from like, what was happening, probably more towards the end. I have really similar ones where it's all gone very wrong and I just feel the shame. Yeah. Yeah. It's crippling.

And when I wake up, when I wake up from the dream, it takes me a few seconds to realize it's not real. And then I am so relieved. I have to really get out of bed and wash my face with water and just so I don't roll over and go back into the dream again. Yeah, because it can, I mean, it can stay with me for like the whole morning. That feeling of it's an anxiety. It's like a hang anxiety, you know, but I haven't even done anything.

I see it as a kind of good reminder. Yeah. It's like the subconscious being like, we know you're doing quite well, but just so you know. It's like my subconscious, I think it's my subconscious being like, this is what I'm used to. So I'm just going to replay this past behavior to you. See if it if you're going to repeat it. I don't know. I need to understand it more.

I really like for it not to happen anymore. And I was saying actually in an interview before this, I was talking about it and I was saying what I also find fascinating is that now that I'm pregnant, I dream pregnant, but now it just means that I have these like dreams and then I think I'm pregnant. So I'm doing all of this stuff in my dreams. Which just adds a whole other layer. You just feel really guilty. Yeah.

So guilty. But, um, like you say, I think sometimes it's, it can be a good reminder. I've had this one dream that bit around the book release where I've gone out and got hammered. And then in the dream, I'm like, fuck, everyone's going to find out. And I've got a book called Bad Drunk and I'm sober. But oh my God, I've like basically relapsed in my dream. And it's so horrible to the feeling. But again, it's sort of like being like, don't let this happen. This is how this would feel.

So let's not let that happen. Cause also I was thinking about that when I was reading it, like you are very much positioning yourself as like, I know you don't say definitively, but you pretty much said like, you don't think you'll ever drink again. And that's obviously something that you feel very clearly about.

But how do you feel like kind of putting that out and anchoring yourself in that position, so to speak? I like it. It makes me feel accountable. And I really don't think I will ever drink again. I did say in the book, you know, I never say never, who knows? And I don't want to beat myself up if I do have a drink at some point. I don't want that to mean that I've failed and that all the work I did to that point

would be for nothing. But now I'm living the benefits. It's just, I just like the clarity, I like the clear headedness, not being hung over. I mean, I would get hung over from having one drink. Yeah, because I think I haven't actually spoken about it that much, but over the law, I feel like this is a good opportunity to but after kind of, I guess, sober curious being like a real pillar for me, and I can, I'm such an advocate for sobriety, because I think, regardless of your relationship with alcohol, it's such an amazing tool for your own personal development, because you have to confront things in a different way, and you can't wear a mask and you can't hide behind alcohol, which so many people do, even if they

have like a quote unquote healthy relationship with it. And also to be able to go into any situation and choose to be sober and that not bring up that feeling of anxiety or like social anxiety is such a liberating tool. But I kind of similar to you at one point was like, I don't think I'm ever gonna drink again or be able to drink again, because it just doesn't work for me. And then over the last probably year and a half, I actually I had an experience where, I don't know if I can say this, but I had like a psilocybin, like a hero's dose. And interestingly, as a byproduct of that, which I didn't go into it with the intention

of like- Did you do it in a therapeutic way? Yeah, exactly. And like someone was facilitating the whole thing and I had such a profound journey doing it. And then I noticed that, and a lot of stuff came up around motherhood and having a baby, which again,

I was never really that maternal. I didn't really know whether that was even for me. So that was one interesting thing. Nothing came up around alcohol, but I noticed a few weeks afterwards, I was away with my partner and his family and they were having wine usually like I just wouldn't and something was like I feel like having something Tom was like really? I think you know that you don't really drink like what what's going on and kind of was

like a bit like perplexed by it and I remember having it and like enjoying it and then just like having one glass and that was fine and I was like interesting. You by it. And I remember having it and enjoying it and then just having one glass and that was fine. And I was like, interesting. You didn't have the urge to have more? No, not at all. And since, but then I was like, okay, I'm just gonna see how this goes and test it out. And I didn't wanna speak about it until I'd found

where I landed on the whole thing. And then that's just continued. And it's been really nice for me to be able to like enjoy in a kind of more ceremonial, I guess, type way, the ritual of like having a drink when I want, but equally most of the time when I choose not to, that's still feeling really good as well because it feels like it's coming from the right place.

But... But that's amazing. Yeah. I think that's such a great place to be in. Yeah, it feels good and it feels surprising, but then the dreams still come. And also, because when I was reading the book, there are so many things,

like there are certain situations that if I found myself in, I would not drink. And one of those is weddings. Because I don't know what happens. I think it's like the pressure that there's like standing around for a long time. Yeah. Don't know a lot of people often. It's quite an awkward. Yeah.

Environment. And I'd say even though you and me are both like, put ourselves out there in many, many ways, I'd say we're actually quite introverted sometimes, or like quite like, you know. And neurodivergent. So I think we're, I don't, I mean, I know, I don't think you've been diagnosed with ADHD.

I've self diagnosed you with ADHD. I don't think I'm too ADHD to actually get diagnosed. I'm like, make a note to go and get it. I'm telling you, you're ADHD. I can have a note pad and write something else down. If you're ADHD, if you have ADHD, something like a wedding, the idea of small talk is really painful. Yeah, I hate small talk. I hate it.

I can't stand it. I want to go in. Yeah, straight away and tell them it's oversharing. Yes, straight to the trauma. Yeah. And then I think when someone's like, you know, constantly filling up your glass, and then you kind of forget that discomfort of what you're experiencing. And then, I mean, let's talk about the switch because we've kind of discussed that we both have that capacity for like the alter ego. Yeah, the bad drunk. The bad drunk. Yeah. And it's almost like playing Russian roulette, isn't it?

It's like, is it going to happen on drink two, drink three, drink four? Yeah, there wasn't a set formula. Like it would be different depending on, you know, what day it was, how much you'd eaten, what mood you were in, where you were in your cycle. There's so many things that feed into it. And for me, the one thing I could notice, like looking back with hindsight is the more anxious I was, the more I would drink and the more likely I'd switch into bad drunk. And then what would happen?

I think definitely, like you've said, it's like a, obviously I don't have the awareness really when it's happening because I'm literally not there. But Hugo said, it's like a dead, like my eyes are just completely dead. Like I'm not there. Like the lights are on, but no one's home. The lights are on, but no one's home.

And what's taken over is this version of me that's a lot more confident. That's really being quite wild and extroverted and being a bit of an exhibitionist who's like a lot of things that I'm just actually not normally, there's just like this wild party girl who wants to dance on a table, you know, have the wild story, you know, the stories are pretty wild. I mean that would be a good book I just do like wild, crazy shit, and then like not remember quite a lot of it or always have a good tale to tell, but often have so many, you know, war wings, I'd fall over, I would sometimes just literally black out and be stand standing up one second and the next unconscious and would like hit my head

or my wrist or I'd really hurt myself a couple of times, which is quite scary. You just said that you would become someone you're not. Obviously I can't speak for you, but personally, I've often wondered because it was very similar and when people would be like, you did this or like you shoved that person out the way, I'd be like, really? I'm capable of that? But then I do sometimes wonder, I'm like, is that a part of me that I suppress and I

don't know how to express it healthily and therefore I use alcohol as a way to enable me to like, just lose my inhibitions and not care so much, but it just becomes a very unhealthy way of expressing it. Or is it just like you say, becoming someone you're not? One part of me that I've actually never talked about before is as a teen, when I would drink, I would always make out with women. But that's not something that I felt confident to do when I was sober.

Yeah. And it was also like so kind of like socially acceptable, like as if you were just always doing it for guys. Validate, oh yeah. Yeah, because a guy was watching, so it was just to entertain boys. But for me, yeah, I wanted the attention, but also, I enjoyed it. And I didn't realize it at the time, but I was thinking about it recently. And I had crushes on girls at school. And I just,

I didn't have the awareness to go okay I like girls as well but I would just yeah I would be have like real crushes on people that I was friends with and get all like weird around them and I just didn't know. I was drunk yeah I remember having like sleepovers and being like I wonder if we're gonna kiss and like really wanting it to happen but unless I was drunk. I wonder if we're going to kiss and like really wanting it to happen, but unless I was drunk. Yeah, I feel actually quite like I was quite similar. And I remember actually there was like, I think it was Proudlock was in like a club or something. I just came in and was talking with a guy and he came, I came over and like pushed him out the way and started like playing out with her I came over and pushed him out of the way and started like, hanging out with her. Because it was like, I was drunk and also it's like if his guy friend did that, it'd be really out of line.

He was like, I don't really know what to do with this situation. But again, like you said, it was kind of seen like it was for the male gaze, but perhaps wasn't. So that's really, that's really interesting. When did you, like, when did that become something that you were aware of? Is that quite recent? Yeah, in therapy actually in the last couple of years. I just feel like I've explored a lot my relationship with women, being bullied by girls at school. It's always been quite complex. Yeah, so I was bullied, so I definitely have intimacy issues with women.

But then at the same time, there is this attraction as well. It's always been quite complex. Yeah, so I was bullied. So I definitely have intimacy issues with women. But then at the same time, there's this there is this attraction as well. See, I married to Hugo, I married to a man. It's not something that affects our relationship at all now. But looking back and realizing that's maybe one of the reasons that I also drank in a destructive way, because there was a part of myself that I didn't understand and I didn't know how to express it and I felt scared to express it. And then it was able to come out in this way that was like you didn't really need to address or explain. Yeah because at a party making out with another girl was like you know everyone always

thought it was just to entertain boys. But it was when I started doing it more like secretly. And if I was in a relationship, suddenly it would cause problems because then the guy's like, hang on, actually, I don't... I wasn't even there. I don't like this. And then I was like, every time I would drink, I would just keep doing it even if I was in a relationship. And then I couldn't seem to stop. And how did you go find that? Like when you talked to him about it and he's like, yeah, it kind of makes sense. But it hasn't, it hasn't been like difficult in your relationship at all. It hasn't.

I mean, when we were younger and we were together, I think it was kind of. The kind of thing that was going on, then it wasn't really okay. And then sit in the last couple of years, that hasn't been something that's happened. And now also, I'm not going out and drinking and doing wild crazy shit. I am not just going to go walk up to women and snog them just because I'm attracted to women just in the same way I wouldn't go up to a man and snog them. So it doesn't, I think I'd be honest with my kids about it. Obviously I'm talking about it to you now and God knows the press

will probably pick up on it, but I don't think there should be any shame attached to omitting your sexuality. Not at all. And do you feel like you've made peace with that part of yourself? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like it's okay. Like, it's literally, like, I don't carry any shame. I'm just like, this is just part of who I am.

Yeah, it's funny. Actually, just this morning, I was like, I was looking at something on social media and this video of Jessica Alba in... Oh, she was like, she was dancing. She's like, when she was- Oh, was it the Sin City thing? It wasn't, it was the one, it was dancing. She's like when she was... Was it the Sin City thing?

It wasn't the... It was the one... It was Honey. Oh yeah, oh yeah. And I looked at it and I was like... One of the times I really questioned my sexuality when I was younger. Because I think it's not like I... I wasn't bullied by girls, but I definitely idolized them. And I always kind of felt confused by that because I was like, am I idolizing them or am I attracted? Like it was kind of confusing.

And I often felt, and still sometimes do, awkward. Like sometimes if I'm talking to a girl that I think is really pretty and I almost find her attractive, I become like a creepy geek. Same. And I'm like, pull yourself together. And I feel like they know, they know that they're like... No, that's just, that's just intrusive thoughts in your head.

Yeah, but I know I get that. If I think that about women, I can... It explains like how I've been in some female friendships as well. Which is what? I think just when I've been friends with someone that I've found very attractive, it's made me quite awkward and uncomfortable with them. And a bit like maybe I can't be my true self because it's like if you're hanging out with someone that you've got a crush on, you're not, you're just not

your normal relaxed self. You feel like you're going to try and impress them or just you just you're like act cool. And do you feel that it's one of those things, because I do, that gets kind of overly sexualized? Yes. That's why I was a bit scared to say it before because it's like, oh, is that too much for people to know that? But it's not like I'm saying it's not about being sexual, it's just about what you like. And who you are. Yeah. It's not something you choose. No.

I think that would really help a lot of people though, because I think it can feel a very confusing place to be in knowing like where you land on it and what people might think. And then like you say, kind of using- Yeah, I've only had experiences with women... Drunk. Drunk.

Actually a few at school, not drunk, but then like from the age of where I started drinking, it was always when I was drunk. And when you kind of realized that, that it was actually like part of you versus just this alter ego, how has that been to kind of bring that into like who you are as a person? I mean, I just, I love women. Like I love being around women. It's not a sexual thing. I just, I love female energy. Do you know what I mean? I'm not like, oh, I'm just crazy about women. I just, I think I've also, oh my God, no, not like that. Like don't, I don't want women to freak out and be like, Oh my God, Millie is just such a perv.

It's because also I haven't, yeah, like goddess energy. But since the sexual assault, I also haven't trusted men. And have you trusted women because of the bullying stuff? I think I'm more cautious before I let someone in and I have only a few very close friends, but most all my friends are female or gay men. So with the trusting men since that experience, do you feel that that really

created this like continuous relationship with different people, with different men, that meant that you didn't trust them? Yeah, just like other things would happen. And by then, when I started things would happen and by then when I started dating and being in relationships with men, I also just picked some really, really bad ones. Also, being the kind of the girl that had been bullied and had a lot of insecurities, I went for the guy that treated me badly. What to kind of reaffirm that belief? Yeah. So I ended up being just the girl that a lot of guys would just see as someone they could hook up with, but not the girlfriend material. And I found that really hard because a lot of friends with her boyfriends and I

felt really lonely and would just have these hookups that just were so meaningless and I would feel so empty and I had abandonment issues which I had from going to boarding school and was just terrified of being alone. So a lot of the hookups I think were really me just looking for love and affection and... Just in the wrong places. In the wrong places, yeah. Yeah, because I was quite surprised actually when I read that in the book about like the feelings that you had of loneliness and actually what you were seeking because ostensibly like on the surface you always seemed because ostensibly, like on the surface, you always seemed quite carefree in that capacity. I think I just outwardly really wanted to seem

like I was fun and wild and free and I was in my element and I was, no one could tell me what to do or hold me down. And I was living my best life. And that was what it would seem on the outside, the party girl, she's having fun. A lot of it was a mask. And obviously doing Made in Chelsea kind of is an intensifier to all of that because then you kind of cast as someone that is,

you know, a lot of it was revolved around partying and drinking and I mean that was my life at that age. It was going on dates, it was going out clubbing a lot, going to parties and I feel like that's that's just what we did when we were 21. How does it make you feel when you think about those times now? Like, do you look back fondly or does it make you feel... I don't know if I'm comfortable. I have like fond memories of, you know, the bits where you're living with friends, you're living with a female friend and you get ready together and you go out and it's... Yeah.

You know, those times. But then also I remember the hangovers, the anxiety, they're not wanting to leave the house for days. And just that side of it, eating a greasy Domino's in bed and just in such a kind of hungover state. And what about the press aspect? Because I knew what you were experiencing, but I think reading it through the book made me actually, and knowing like the kind of person you are, really at your core. I don't think people realize how hard that is or must have been,

especially with some of the things that you write about, like I know you wrote about the Monaco experience, which yeah, I remember that. Cause also do you remember you were with Scott? So just to add a bit of context to this story, I had two of your exes. You guys creating a club? Is this going to be a boy band? What's going on? So my ex-boyfriend like befriended like all my best friends and took you guys to Monaco. And I found out about it and we'd only been broken up like, I don't know, two months or something. But I remember finding out about it from those photos and just it was one of those things that just it was like wildfire wasn't it with everyone picking up on it.

Yeah. Everybody loves watching a shit show. Yeah. And especially, especially a shit show that involves someone where they feel like they have everything. And then people are just like vultures waiting. Yeah, people love to see you fall. Yeah. And how have you found like... It was, again, that shame. The feeling of how I just thought, how could I have done this again?

And that feeling I'd had so many times and after not just that night, but any night where I'd just been completely out of control, I would wake up and just think, I've done it again. Because you were also going through a really painful time, you just got divorced. And I think that's obviously why I was drinking at that level at that point.

Also self-medicating a lot with Xanax. I was just literally just so on edge all the time. I just was really unable to handle the discomfort and the panic attacks and the anxiety was so strong at that point. I was just trying to cope and not choosing very well. Was it a lot to do with the scrutiny of the press? The feeling like everything was being... I felt like I was being watched all the time, constantly looking over my shoulder, worried everywhere I went that the photographer was

taking my picture. And I developed kind of paranoia that I'm sure I was being followed even if I wasn't. And then every time I did go out drinking, if it wasn't, unless it was just at someone's house, if it was somewhere completely private, I would be so paranoid that someone was watching me, was filming me or taking pictures of me when I was so drunk that I couldn't remember what I was doing or that I was so drunk I wasn't consciously thinking I need to keep it together. So what I learned to do was just to get drunk privately. I would have been clever maybe if I thought, maybe I should just stop drinking. It took me another good few years after that until I realized that that was actually the

answer rather than just thinking, I've just got to do this shit in private. And the private drinking was in the context of like, cause I know you spoke about the drinking and the motherhood thing, which I don't know that space, but there's this culture around like earning your evening drink. And that if you haven't mothered hard enough, then like. Yeah, we don't need that drink. Like you weren't mothering hard enough.

And did that kind of take on its own life? I never used to be, you know, like in the years that you knew me drinking, I would drink mainly if I was going out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was never a big at home drinker. Like I'd have wine or whatever. I wouldn't really drink every night of the week.

And yeah, as a new mum, suddenly it was like, I really deserve this. And I would kind of be counting down to the kids going to bed to get the reward of the first drink. So many, so many mums do that. Which in a way, perhaps might have seemed like a healthier drink. Yeah, because you're like, oh, this is more moderate. Yeah. But even one drink a day is altering your brain chemistry. If you already have anxiety, you don't need to be drinking a large amount for it to be creating a lot more anxiety.

I feel like we were just talking about this, but maybe we went onto a different subject, but the ADHD thing as it relates to drinking. Because I remember Dr. Alex George coming on and talking about this and how like the two are just not a good combination. Why is that? If you have ADHD, then you are more likely to abuse an addictive substance because of the way the brain is wired. And you want more, you're seeking more and more dopamine, which is what the alcohol is giving you. So you're more likely to kind of keep chasing

the feeling that alcohol is giving you. I think it's really like, it's because living with ADHD, you've got so many thoughts at one given moment that if you find something that can just like quiet in the noise, you're like, oh my God, what a relief. Or just turn off the alcohol completely. And a Xanax or a couple of drinks would take me to that place where everything was quieter. And it was like having a break from my mind.

Yeah. Understanding that, I was like, that really made everything click into place. Because I know that there was one particular experience where you were like, OK, actually, this is enough. But there was more, lots of different moments that contributed to that. But when you were on the boat, we go and you had a panic attack. I had a panic attack that was a lot more intense than any panic attacks I'd had

before, where I really felt like I was dying. Because you've had like from probably, I don't know, even when we went traveling, I felt like I was dying. Because you've had like from probably, I don't know, even when we went traveling, I felt like you would. Yeah, as a teen, but I didn't really know what they were. I would often feel like I just had to escape and leave wherever I was. Like it was just, I was so annoyed whenever I felt it,

because I was like, oh, it's getting in the way of my fun. But it was actually just trying to protect me from going. It was like probably whenever I felt it, I was like, oh, it's getting in the way of my fun. But it was actually just trying to protect me from going. It was like, probably whenever I was about to start drinking heavily, my system was like, no, don't do it. Yeah. And I used to, you know, as we said, get lots of stomach issues. And it was like really affecting my IBS, but I didn't understand what that was at that age. And over the years, my anxiety's changed

and kind of manifested into these panic attacks that feel like I'm dying, which is a lot more unpleasant because the logical part of your brain isn't working when you're in a panic attack. So you can't logically tell yourself that it's not real and it feels very real. logically tell yourself that it's not real and it feels very real. You'll have, you know, the heart pumping, like the sweating. I get a lot of tightness in my throat and I felt like I couldn't swallow or get any air in.

And I started to black out because I was like hyperventilating and I saw the girls' faces. They were two and six months old at that point, but I was on holiday. They weren't there, but I just, it was like seeing this image of them and I was feeling this intense terror that I would never see them again. And I was hungover when I had that panic attack and I just was like, I can't, I can't do this again. So that was, yeah, over two and a half years ago. And also Hugo, I know you said that he was like,

this needs to... Yeah, it was causing issues in our relationship. And I'd got... I really, really badly wasted at a wedding a few days before. And he'd said, you know, if this keeps happening, it's going to end our relationship. And that was that a big wake up call? That was a big wake up call, but I had to reach the decision on my own. Everyone always does. You can't tell someone to stop. And he wasn't saying in that moment, you stop from today or else. He was saying, I can't keep living like this

and having this argument and having these experiences. He was like, I just can't. And it took me another couple of days. So I got to my rock bottom moment. I said, okay, enough is enough. a couple of days. So I got to my rock bottom moment, I said, okay, enough is enough. And then I started, I made a list of things to do. I text my sober coach that I tried to stop drinking with about maybe three or two years before. And I said, okay, I know I didn't stick to it last time, but I really want it. I'm really serious. And we made an appointment for when I got home. I ordered lots of books on sobriety and I downloaded podcasts.

I just wanted to immerse myself, get all the knowledge that I could, that was going to help me to understand what my life could look like without alcohol. Even from that first day, although I was terrified of what the future would look like, I also felt like, I think I just suddenly felt like I do have the strength to do this. And you were ready. I think I was ready.

What I really want with the book is to help people realize that they have the strength to. And it feels impossible. But until you do it, you just don't know. And just I took it one day at a time. And then slowly it was like one week at a time. And now it's just not, I don't wake up every day and have to decide not to drink. I just don't drink now.

I think what's really important that you wrote about and that I always try and encourage people is it's very easy to stop drinking and just stay at home and watch Netflix and not go anywhere. And then you get invited to a wedding or a party and the wheels come off and it all goes out the window. You have to put yourself in those scenarios that bring up that discomfort,

that bring up that social anxiety and give yourself a new experience. I can't remember what term you used for it, but I always think of it as like investing in tomorrow's you. Yeah. When you have that feeling and you wake up and you're like, I didn't let myself down. Yeah, actually, it was quite awkward sitting next to that person because they're wasted and I left like early and felt a bit shit. Yeah, it's not always fun. It's not always fun.

Like, because I think people think- It's often not fun. You know, the terminology of like one giving up alcohol feels like you're letting, like losing something. That's one misconception because it's actually you gain a huge amount more. But the other one is that if you give up drinking and you're sober, then you don't have any bad feelings. That everything's just plain sailing, which is not, you just have to face them.

Yeah, you have to feel, which can be really confronting and painful, but also you just, the benefits just outweigh the discomfort. Totally. And each day I feel better each year, each month I could really see the ways that my life was improving. I feel now that I've got a confidence I didn't have before. That's an unexpected vibe as well. It's like people think, oh, I don't want to stop drinking because I'm more confident when I'm drunk. It's like, you're not really, and actually you gain so much more confidence

by being able to go into any scenario sober to handle it. Like that's how you build confidence. Yeah, exactly. And truly getting to know myself and starting a self-love journey that if you'd ask me in my twenties, like, oh, you know, do you love yourself? And I'd be like, yeah, of course I do. Like, I'm great. But actually, I really didn't. And until I stopped drinking, I couldn't really do any healing. Mm-hmm. Because that, I know that experience since you've stopped drinking has been a challenging

one because there was a point where I think it sounded like everything kind of came to the surface and you said you were doing a lot of healing work in terms of going to all of these practices and seeing all of these people. No, I was trying to do all of the things to not feel anxious. So you were just trying to like suppress... When I first stopped drinking, I experienced what I've read is called the pink cloud, which is a feeling you get in early sobriety where you're feeling the benefits and you feel great. And you're like, wow, I've cracked the code, I'm healed.

Alcohol was the problem, we've removed alcohol, I am fixed. I'm this like new version of myself and I've got no problems. And then the feelings start to show up that you were numbing before, you don't have the alcohol to numb them. And that led me to think, okay, I can heal my all these feet, I can heal all my anxiety with all the wellness practices.

And I was just trying to do so many different things to just outrun it in a different way where I was like still not in my feelings, but I was, I thought I was doing all the right things, but I was a void. I was still so uncomfortable to just sit and be in my feelings. And I was in kind of constant fight flight. And then a year ago, I actually had a bit of a breakdown where I just reached breaking point and was having those intense panic attacks frequently where I felt like I was dying. And it was completely debilitating. I had developed a fear of eating. I lost a lot of weight. I was really not sleeping. I was crying every day. I could go to work and put a mask on. Then I'd come home and just unravel and just be like literally crying on the

bathroom floor and unable to pull myself together. And then I had a massive panic attack at the BAFTAs. I was all made up in this incredible dress and, and I fell apart at this public event and I just felt something in me just like break. And the next day I took medication that I'd been feeling ashamed to take, which is so ridiculous. feeling ashamed to take, which is so ridiculous. But again, there's lots of shame around taking meds and I have, I'm still on them now. It's, it's really been so helpful to finally get to a place where I'm sober and I'm actually, I just feel really well. I feel a lot more balanced. I'm not constantly in crisis mode

and life's gonna throw shit at you. And I've got young kids and it's hectic and there's a lot going on. And I still feel anxious sometimes, but I can cope with it. I can recognize it. I can self soothe. I can get myself out of a panic attack or get through it.

And like the taking medication thing, I think is a really important one for people listening. It's like, you can get support and help, and especially when you're confronting a lot of trauma or suppressed experiences and feelings, having that to kind of stabilize you. It's allowed me to do the work in therapy that I couldn't do before because I was constantly in crisis mode. So I would have to be dealing with the current crisis in therapy instead of actually doing the deeper work. I see it as like...

When you say current crisis though, as in the anxiety and discomfort that you were experiencing in that moment and trying to kind experiencing in that moment. Yeah. And trying to kind of bring you down. Yeah. It would be like, okay, I'm so anxious because this week I've got this, this and this on and I don't know how I'm going to get through like each of these things without having an absolute meltdown. I'd have to have a lot of therapy just to be able to get through.

I was living in fear of having a panic attack. I'd be like, I've got to shoot tomorrow. I really, I love the brand. I really want it to go well. I would be like terrified. What if I have a panic attack when I'm on set and just constantly living in this like what if. That's what you'll say.

Yeah. And also then that means that you're not actually dealing with the stuff that you really want to deal with. No, it was always dealing with, or literally having a panic attack in my session or dealing with the fallout. If I had a panic attack, I'd feel awful for days. So I could never really get anywhere in my therapy and was feeling frustrated. And now I've done a lot of EMDR and lots of inner child work I found really helpful. To do, you know, going into specific things.

I really like IFS as well. And just, yeah. Beautiful about your story. And I think why it's going to help a lot of people is drinking is often seen as like, oh, well, if I'm not drinking every day and if I'm not drinking every day, and if I'm like, not an alcoholic, like, you know, defining what it means to be an alcoholic and feeling This is gray area. It's gray area.

Yeah. And actually, you know, similar to my experience, like, it doesn't, it just doesn't work with certain people. And that's okay. And there's no shame in that. And it doesn't mean you have to define yourself on any specific terms, but just to normalize and advocate for a more sober life, whether that's in its entirety or just for a certain period so that you can

address stuff or like heal your relationship with it is so important, but it, it's not something that people are that willing to share all the time. It makes people so uncomfortable. Because it brings a mirror. People are like, she's coming for my alcohol. What do you mean? Like, I think the nasty comments I've had since the books come out.

I don't judge anyone, but some, you know, I really, I really have no judgment, but I'll get like, maybe we've got some nasty comments and I just look at the profile and like every pitch they've got like a massive glass of wine. And I think people think I'm judging them for drinking and I'm really not. This is just my story. This is not a sob story. It's a sobriety story. It's what has, it's, you know, it's completely changed my life. And I probably am quite annoying to some people, but I'm not going to stop talking about it.

What are some of the comments? I think some people have like, oh, you're not, you didn't go to rehab or, you know, you, you're not, you're not a real alcoholic. So you can't talk about this. It's so weird how people do that. Or like, you weren't even that bad. Or like, that just sounds like a standard Friday night to me. You're like, you're not getting the point.

You're not getting the point. But I'm like, okay, you do you. I've been listening to lots of Mel Robbins as well and she just has this amazing let them theory. Just let them. Just really helps with the comment. Just like let them. But do you not feel that, you know, having had your experience with the press that it's felt very out of control, like you said earlier, it's like giving you a sense of autonomy, back and power, that even still with the comments, it's like, because you are so clear on this being right for you, and if having helped you so much, it's a bit like whatever,

you know. Exactly. And it feels so good to actually just be so open and be like, these are all my deepest, darkest secrets. And now I've told them to the world. Yeah. Whereas in my twenties, this was all the stuff that I was terrified would make it into the

tabloids. Yeah. And that is the irony, isn't it? Because often people have messaged me saying, how have you shared that on the podcast? And I'm like, do not feel too vulnerable. But paradoxically, the more vulnerable I've been, the more secure I felt in myself because it's like you reveal that thing that you've kept, the more secure I felt in myself, because it's like, you reveal that thing that you've kept in the dark. And not only are you not judged for it, but actually other

people come forward and say, I felt that way too. And then it's suddenly in the light and it's not so scary and it's not so ugly. And then you're like, oh, I agree. It's like shining a light on those dark and ugly places within us. And then they don't seem so bad. And you can move on. And what do you think is next for you in this chapter? I don't know. You know, I've been thinking a bit about doing my own podcast again. Around this subject.

Around this subject, maybe also mental health, ADHD, delving into all of that. I've got another book already that I want to write more again like mental health because I was there was I touched on my mental health in this book but I wasn't the space it was more the book was more about my specifically my sobriety stories I would kind of want to do more of a mental health and anxiety. Yeah. Dolving into it. Yeah. But yeah, just doing lots of book promo at the moment, for getting a bit sick of my voice. I feel like you...

But I'm really enjoying it. It's nice talking about something I feel really passionately about. And that comes across. It really does. It's nice talking to you about it because none of the other people that I've spoken to were there. I don't need to explain anything to you because you just get it. You've seen a lot of the bad drunk behavior. You were there. You saw me the next day. Like you've, yeah, we've, I mean, we could honestly have, you

could write a whole series of books based on our adventures. But I do, there was like a thing and I understand it and I get like the bad drunk and I know the feeling of shame, but also like you were like, we had a lot of fun, you know, there was some work. Because I think I used to do that. I used to be like, oh my god, I was like the worst person ever, because that helped me stay on the straight and narrow. But then it got to the point where I was like, villainizing myself, you know, and I think it's important at some point to just not feel like you were just bad.

Yeah. Do you know what I mean? It's funny that you can't, I feel like I remember the bad times more. Of course, of course. Like we all do, especially when something has caused us pain and it kind of becomes necessary to propel us forward in like the direction we want to go. But yeah. I have lots of fond memories of us teetering around in our tiny dresses and high heels.

I know. When most people took their gap year, they were like with backpacks on and like, we didn't stay, we didn't stay in a single hostel. There are some photos of us. It was like the simple life. Staying in the nicest apartments and just people like you can come and stay. We didn't realize that that was perhaps not that normal. But it was fun. It was for us. It was for us. But anyway, do you have any final words for anyone that, because like this audience, a lot of them are on the Sober Curious train and they're trying to find their footing

and where they land in it. Do you have any final pieces of advice for anyone listening? I would just say if you're someone who's just not sure or feeling scared that you don't have the strength to do it, just know that you do. And it's ultimately the biggest self-love decision you can make because you will just truly get to know yourself. And it's been so freeing. I like to say I found my freedom from alcohol because I just I did feel trapped for a long time, because even when I didn't want to drink, I would just always give in and end up drinking

because it was so there was so much societal pressure to drink. But having the strength to finally say no to something that wasn't serving me has been so liberating and yeah, life just keeps getting better. It's worth it. Just do it. Also, I'd say just try for a month or six months or set yourself a certain amount of time. It feels really scary. It did for me to say, I'm never drinking ever.

So just set yourself, you know, a certain amount of days that you wanna do and journal and see how you feel. You're never gonna regret it. You're not gonna look back and be like, that 100 days that I didn't drink, I wish I'd been drinking every single day. You are only going to feel the

benefits and then it will help you to reassess. But also it looks different for everyone, but your So Be Curious journey looks different to mine and I think yours is really beautiful. But yeah, I mean, I'm such an advocate for people just trying it out. Like you say, they're never going to regret it. Also like no judgment. Because, like you say, they're never going to regret it. But also, like, no judgment. Mm-hmm. Thanks, Mils. Aw, that was so nice.

That was so nice. Honest, it was so nice. I loved sitting down with Milly and having this conversation. I always feel like with her, we can there, like we can go deep, we can talk about the raw vulnerable stuff but it's always also matched with this humor and this sort of cheekiness that we've always always shared in our friendship and I love that about her. And also just hearing some of her experiences whilst I may have been on the sort of periphery of it, actually hearing like how intense some of that must be in the public eye and under that kind of media scrutiny, which you know when we're navigating our 20s they're

challenging enough in terms of all of these things with facing our identity, career shifts or our relationship with alcohol, our relationships in general, but then doing that under the magnifying glass of the media. It just adds a whole different thing and I really empathize with that because it's not easy. And I think people are very quick to dehumanize people in the public eye and sort of think that it's all for their entertainment. And that, I guess, is one of the kind of darker sides of fame or reality TV is this sense of ownership

over people's lives and experiences that is not very healthy. But I feel like Millie's really done the work and kind of unraveling some of that stuff and got to a place where she is like very content and grounded and seems super happy in herself, which is just so lovely to see and to witness her evolution.

And I'm excited for what she does next. So I hope that you guys enjoyed it and gave you some food for thought. Feel free to message myself or Millie if you had any thoughts. I know that this will attract some M.I.C. O.G. followers because it always does when we do these kind of episodes which is lovely to see so welcome for the new listeners and thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode please share it with a friend you think might find it useful whether they are perhaps navigating their own sobriety journey or they are just old school Maiden Chelsea fans and they might be

interested to hear me and Millie have a conversation today. So thank you so much for listening and as always remember you're not alone. Goodbye.