Saturn Returns with Caggie - Tally Gilbert: A Love Letter to Friendship - Poetry, Platonic Love, & the Art of Storytelling

Episode Date: April 14, 2025

In this heart-opening episode, Caggie reconnects with her oldest friend and creative soul sister, Tally Gilbert - poet and founder of Pinky Studio. Together, they reflect on a friendship that began in childhood and has evolved through every chapter of life. From summers on the Isle of Wight and poems written over the phone, to the quiet shifts that come with growth and change, this conversation is a true love letter to sisterhood, creativity, and the deep bonds that shape who we are. Topics covered include:  🌟 Childhood memories and the magic of early friendships 🌟 How creativity, poetry, and role-playing deepened their bond 🌟 The impact of growing up and life changes on friendships 🌟 The art of staying connected through life’s transitions 🌟 Tally's career pivot and how Pinky Studio was born 🌟 The power of custom poetry and creating emotional connections 🌟 Personal growth, spiritual awakenings, and the journey to self-discovery 🌟 The importance of mutual support and respect in lifelong friendships 🌟 Advice for younger generations on friendships, personal growth, and staying true to yourself If you’ve ever experienced the ebb and flow of long-lasting friendships, this episode is a beautiful reminder of the enduring magic that comes from genuine connections. Tally’s story is a testament to the transformative power of creativity, platonic love, and the friends who truly know us, through every version of ourselves. Check out Tally's incredible custom poetry at Pinky Studio: pinky-studio.co.uk — Thank you to our sponsor, Naturalmat, for making this episode possible! Better sleep starts naturally ☁️ Naturalmat’s handcrafted, organic mattresses and bedding are good for you, your family, and the planet. Experience the comfort of sustainable sleep at naturalmat.co.uk, or visit one of their showrooms! If you enjoyed this conversation, don’t forget to follow Saturn Returns for more episodes exploring wellness, spirituality, and personal development. Share this episode with someone who could use a little extra joy in their life, or take a moment to comment and share your thoughts. Your feedback means so much and helps us reach more listeners! Discover more from Saturn Returns: 🪐 Instagram, YouTube and TikTok 🪐 Order the Saturn Returns book: Click here 🪐 Join our community newsletter: Sign up here 🪐 Explore all things Saturn Returns: Visit our website 🪐 Follow Caggie on Instagram: @caggiesworld

Before we dive into today's episode, I want to take a moment to talk about something that's really, really important to me. Sleep. We all know how crucial a good night's rest is, but have you ever thought about how your sleep environment affects both your health and the planet? That is where Naturalmat comes in. From the very beginning, they prioritise sustainability by using certified organic materials like locally sourced organic wool. Their mattresses and bedding aren't just better for you, they're better for the environment too. And everything is handmade with care and craftsmanship in their Devon workshop. So if you want to improve your sleep while making a positive impact on the planet, I highly recommend visiting naturalmap.co.uk. Heading to one of their showrooms, trust me, switching to a natural, sustainable sleep setup makes all the difference.

Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kage Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. Oh my goodness, I am so happy to introduce you to a dear, dear, dear friend of mine. If you guys read the Saturn Returns book, which by the way, I always forget to plug, so if you haven't, I have a book, please go and get it. I talk about friendship a lot in it. I talk about relationships a lot in it. I reference Tali as the longest relationship I've ever had because she and I, who is the guest on this show today, have been best friends since we were, I think we met when we were about 12, maybe a little bit younger, I could be wrong, grew up in the Isle of Wight together every summer. Tali was like the leader of the pack

and she's always been the most popular funny girl and you will see why in this conversation. And we were inseparable from about 14 to our early 20s. And then it was kind of like, and we discuss it in this conversation, I think when I was going into my late 20s and like going through this transition and kind of this self-inflicted exile, as I call it, just before I kind of went through my Saturn return, a lot of my friendships shifted.

And I know you guys have experienced that. And what I try and always encourage you to remember is like, if a friendship is based on something really solid, it will come back in a different form. And I feel like me and Talia are perfect example of that. Like we went in our different directions and now we've kind of come back together with so much love and appreciation for each other and each other's paths and what we're pursuing

in life and career. She's been so helpful to me around my pregnancy and helping me with, you know, what I need, what I don't need. And because she knows me so well and every version of me that has ever existed, it is something, it is a friendship that I will value forever. And I'm so pleased to introduce you to her because she's got a fantastic business called Pinky Studios that basically does custom poetry for people. And it's, she's so talented and we always did poetry. We always did role play with each other. We used to just, I mean, this goes

to show how old we are because this is well before social media. We literally lie in bed for hours just like pretending to be different characters to each other. And then we'd be on the phone for hours, we would write a poem and like, let's go write a poem and call each other and read it out. It was such a magical childhood that I had with Tali because we always had that creative streak and that sort of performing streak in common. And seeing her craft this beautiful career that is so unique to her skill is just, oh, it's just heartwarming. It's so magical to see. And what joy she brings to people's lives that she writes poems for because she can do it literally standing on her head. And she has a way of taking people's story and alchemizing it into something so beautiful and unique and a piece of art that they will treasure forever.

So if you guys have anything going on where you think you might need a poem, whether that's a speech you have to do at a wedding or someone's birthday or a baby being born, whatever it might be, it's for any occasion, I highly suggest checking out her work because yeah, it's such a gift to the world. So thank you Tali for being who you are and doing what you do. And I hope you guys enjoy this conversation because it's all about really about like friendship coming back together and the bond that we have and we discussed some quite funny things because like I said Tally probably knows me better than most people even the parts that I would prefer no one knew about. So I hope you enjoy this and find it amazing.

And thank you Tally. And if you guys want to check out her Pinky Studio, go to pinkystudio.co.uk. Tally Hackett, welcome to the Saturn Return. That's not my name anymore. Oh my god, what's his name? Well, to me, you'll always be Tallyhacket, welcome to the Saturn Return. That's not my name anymore. Oh my God, what's this? Well, to me, you'll always be Tallyhacket. No, to me, I'll always be Tallyhacket. I cried when I changed my name.

Did you? Alex came into our room and I was hysterically crying on the gov.uk passport application. He was like, you don't have to change your name. I was like, I do. I do. No. How? How? Hello. Hello, Kag. Welcome to the Slash from the Turns podcast. I feel like we should have been doing this

when we were like 12 years old. Oh my God. What was that thing I sent you the other day? I always get to serve these memes of people now, like teenagers now, doing their really sexy dance routines. And then it flashed back to what we were like doing our, I would love to dig up that footage of us doing our dancing. I think for the sake of this episode, I'm gonna have to find some of at least the photographs

that we took. Do you remember when it had that thing, that feature where it like warped your faces? Oh yeah, and we were just crying. We loved it. But we didn't care. There was no like makeup. It was all very innocent. But that's because no one was really seeing it. I guess we put it on our Facebook. No, we would put it on Facebook. I think I need to delete my Facebook.

But for the audience that doesn't know, I mean, this is just going to be very conversational. This is a kind of trip down memory lane for us because as I referred to you in the book as my oldest relationship. I cried when I read that. It's like about platonic love. It's amazing. I read your book. If you remember, I got it and I read it in like three hours. You were like, are you okay? I was like, yeah, six coffees. Yeah, but that meant so much to me. Yeah, it's amazing. I loved it.

But you've been such a huge chapter of my life. And so I kind of wanted to have you on to not only talk about what you're doing now, but also of like the journey that we've been through together as friends, because it's such a big topic that people don't really know how to talk about. Especially when things change and life moves you in different directions. And then kind of how it comes. We've been through a lot together. We've been through a lot. So should we take it back to the beginning?

Where we met. Yes. How old were we? We must have been really little at school, at primary school. So we both went to Prospect House in Putney, I would have been... You were very sweet. Little funny little thing. I didn't look like I do now when I was little. It's like, what's that film where they, you know, like in a film where they sort of have like quite a big sort of blow up.

But in a, you were never, you were beautiful, sweet little thing, but you know, even your dad said that your teeth look like they've been hammered in by a drunk blind man. And you had this eye patch and these glasses and your hair. You always describe me with glasses. It just makes it better. Was it just the eye patch? It was just the eye patch, but the eye patch had little stickers on it.

It did. And then you had this sort of like hair that was sort of like little wispy pubes coming out. You were just, it was just, you were so sweet. You know, like, you know, you were very lovable and cute. But you had a glow up. I had a lot of ailments when I was little. Yeah. I had like also like this skin thing on my arm. And then I was obviously really, really small. Yeah. And you had that funny walk. I didn't have a funny walk, but all the rest is true.

Whereas you were always very cool, popular. So we weren't friends at Prospect House, really. I was not friends with everyone. No, no, no. We became friends in Sea View. Yeah, then we became friends in Sea View, in the Isle of Wight, which is somewhere we both grew up going together. You know, like you go away for your summer holidays.

That's where we would go. And it was magic. It really was. It was mad-idyllic. And we had... Till all the boys and sex got involved. Yeah, but it was... That was very late though, really. Especially for you, Christ.

Real late bloomer. But it was, because we just kind of cruised around... And on our micro scooters. On our micro scooters. On our micro scooters. No phones. No one cared where we were. I think I knew every single person on the Isle of Wight's house phone number.

And say, I'm not gonna say it. In case your mum stops getting some prank calls. That's probably what we would have been doing. Prank calling people. God. Yeah, we had an amazing time. We learnt to sound a bit much, doesn't it? But we did do some, we had to have summer jobs. Our moms were very good at instilling that and us good work ethos and we would work.

I mean, it now sounds a bit very posh, but at the local York club. And we lasted, was it a day or two? When did we get fired? I'd give us two. We were like, who fires 15 year olds? Like, so this is basically our first job, pretty much. This is our first job because then we worked at cows the year after, which was an absolute disaster. We were assistant instructors. Honestly, I think they paid us 50p a day.

We were so thrilled. And there was a staff briefing the morning, the day after we just started, it was day two. And this man stood up and said, well, unfortunately, we've got some very bad news because there's been a report, a few complaints from some of the members saying there were two girls going through the moorings, which is like where all the boats are kept,

on like a tiny little dinghy with an engine at the back. There was one at the front, holding onto a rope, pretending to lasso the rope, screaming. And the other one was at the back, definitely me at the back driving, going through the moorings way too fast. And I looked at Kag and I was like, oh my God, I think that was us. And he's like, Kaggy and Tally, you are fired. And I remember walking out and our mums being so upset and it was a really big deal. But actually considering all the things we've done, that was not that bad.

That wasn't worthy of being fired over. Yeah, but I think, you know, we all do make mistakes when we're younger. We've made many. Some of them are way too exaggerated to say. Especially on my part. Yeah, well, maybe I don't know where you're gonna go with that. No, I'm just not. I'm just gonna stop talking

because otherwise I think we'll probably get cancelled. But in terms of sort of seeing... ...childhood growth through different stages, because those were like towards the end of our teenage years. Yeah, and we didn't go to the same secondary school, but we'd speak on the phone. A huge life point for you was your parents getting divorced. That was massive.

And we used to speak on the phone every night. And so much of what I do now stems from, and what you, you know, with your, you obviously write beautiful poetry. And we used to do this thing where we'd ring each other, and then I'd say, right, okay, call you back in three minutes, let's see what we can write.

And then we'd put the phone down, obviously like a big house phone, write a poem, call each other back, and read it to each other. I think I still have some of them, I need to find them and dig them out, but... I still do as well. I actually have the one...

I wrote for my dad. That you wrote for your dad. That was like one of the first ones that I wrote. That was really cute. Yeah, I should share it. But yeah, there's been so many massive, you know, life things that we've been together. It's so nice when you have a friend who, you know,

it's like really to watch each other properly grow up from that funny little patch, eye patch girl. But also, I think we've always shared, which probably we didn't appreciate or realize at the time, that sort of creative expression. I mean, we used to spend not only doing the poetry and everything, but we would spend hours doing like... Role play.

No, nothing dodgy. Actually, nothing dodgy. We used to do role play. No, nothing dodgy. Actually nothing dodgy. We used to do role play. Oh my God, we'd do like acting scenes. Lots of it in Sea View, arguing. I'd be the angry husband and you'd be the exhausted wife. We did. We used to lie in bed for hours. Yeah, we did.

Just playing these different characters. The drags are so lovely. I'm like New Year for hours. Yeah, we did. Just playing these different characters. You're actually so lovely and I have to say... On like New Year's Eve. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, but I wouldn't have wanted to be anywhere else. Like, we have such a beautiful friendship that really fulfilled so many aspects.

And the creative ways we stimulated each other was... is actually amazing. And it meant that we had endless fun. Also, imagine if we'd just... We were in... It's in the time now. We'd probably be lying in bed on TikTok. It's very depressing. Or we'd be huge TikTok stars.

Yeah, so you're killing it. I do keep thinking about... I keep getting also served all these videos of people who do things on TikTok and on OnlyFans who sell, like, pictures of their feet. Apparently, Lily Allen's making, like... What do you know about feet? She's got really nice feet.

But it's not something I'm into, but, like, I got... She's got nice feet. You've thought about it, haven't you? Have I? There was a point, I remember having dinner with a girlfriend and she told me that people sell their dirty underwear and made a lot of money and I was like, -"My, okay. Interesting." And then I thought,

actually, I spoke to friends the other night when I was coming home from dinner about the other girl who farts into jars. And she's absolutely cleaned up. I've heard that about someone that sweats into vials. Oh, yes. That's what I'm... Yeah, I've heard that as well. But the farting into jars. So I thought I could be called Guff Gal.

And I could fart into jars. And we were talking about how it would work. And whether you sort of get the jar and then you have... Like, obviously, it's really obvious this is your home. So we'd have to hang... I don't know why I'd be doing it here. But we'd hang some material there and then we'd get the jar. And then my friend said, would the camera be at the bottom of the jar?

And I was like, what? So you can see the fart come out. Surely it'd be at the side. I was so nervous. We've gone really off. Anyway, yeah, sorry, sorry. I'm gonna start farting into yours. If we'll fail with the poetry, that's my next stop. But you've had an amazing career pivot. Yeah. Would you be able to, because I think for our audience, like people- Are like, who the fuck is this girl?

No, no, no, but as in often people are like, I really want to change what I'm doing. Oh my God, 100%. I'm hating my job. I had this idea. And what I always find so beautiful about what you do, and I try and encourage people to do the same, is like, go back to what brought you joy when you were young. And that's like what you've done. And you've turned it into this incredible business, which is just so you. And it makes people so happy. Yeah, it's so nice. I basically make people cry with happiness for a living, which is

pretty lovely. Would you be able to explain it in a bit more detail? So obviously I've always been- And from the idea of it. Yeah, well I've always written poems, obviously, with you and I loved it and I love writing and I love words and- And storytelling.

And storytelling, yeah. I'm a good storyteller. I love like a fun, upbeat, happy story and some lulls. I was a PA for ages. I ran, like, children's... Actually, I'm not even talking about that, because it's a whole nother tantrum, but yeah, I was a PA. I had lots of various jobs and I just hadn't really found my thing.

I was really happy and everything was great, but I wrote poems for people for birthdays and weddings, and everyone would say, "'Oh, Tally, do one of your poems for my 30th, and can you do a speech?' And, you know, I just did it because I loved it. It's like my thing. And Alex was like,

"'Oh, it's so amazing that you've got this sort of talent, and it's lovely.' But it was never really like a... I just never thought about it, of actually making it into something, a career. My sister-in-law, Tori, who's a life coach, who's amazing, she was like, what are you doing? Just make this into a business. Write poems for people. And obviously, you know, imposter syndrome,

which I think maybe it's worth for women, I'm sure it must be, but I was obviously like, don't be ridiculous. I can do it for someone I don't know. Oh, my God. No, no. And anyway, I sort of pushed the fuck it button. And it is, it takes massive balls and it's really risky and especially going from something where you're making money to then sort of taking a, you know, I kept the other job I was doing and sort of started slowly.

And I was really lucky in that it worked. And I do feel like there's... So, like, when I first... I didn't really tell anyone I was doing it, and I made the Instagram and I was like, "'Fuck it' and everyone." Loads of people shared, genuinely, because they've seen me do a poem at a party, or they heard me read a poem at my brother's wedding,

or whatever it may be. Um, and I remember someone saying, in a world where there is so much AI, this feels like a really human business. And I think for me, that was such... that really spurred me on because... We need that. Yeah, and like, yeah, my...

I'm really good at poems, I am. But I also think it's like that, yeah, my, I'm really good at poems, I am, but I also think it's like that human connection, like I understand relationships, you know. You understand people. I understand people, and I think that I love getting to know each client and I'll have a call with them, and it's amazing,

and we chat and we laugh, and I feel like I've known them forever, and then I'll write them a questionnaire and they fill it in, and then I'll write the poem from that. But it in. And then I'll write the poem from that. But it's all the poems are full of, you know, I do do sad ones for funerals and awful things, but most of them, even those ones, to be honest, are just full of love and happy memories and special moments.

And yeah, I love it. I feel really lucky that I love what I do. Yeah, I love it. I feel really lucky that I love what I do. I wanted to share something with you that's made a huge difference in my sleep quality, natural mat. If you're anything like me, you care about what goes into your sleep environment.

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because it sounds like everyone that you've worked with has had the same response, whereas it's like, it feels like it's what they wish they could have written, because it feels so personal. Well, so many people, actually, it's so funny, will... Which is, thank God, I have zero ego, and all I want is for them to just love their poems and enjoy it.

But it's theirs, you know, they're paying me to do it. But a lot of people will read them out and then will say they wrote them because it's so unfathomable that anybody could have written something about that person that everyone in that room knows and loves that feels so spot on. Of quirks and stories and experiences. Yeah, and I'm, I love doing ones which are like mix

of like very funny and happy and upbeat and sentimental, but also with a massive vein running through of, I love you, like, this is a big moment, whatever it may be. And I want to tell you in a either really public way or read it to you, just the two of you. But either way, it's really magic. I shared one the other day that I actually thought about you when I wrote it because it was like,

it was about platonic love. Because I sort of thought I knew that... I actually think I just got off the phone to my mom and she was talking about how friendships change as you get older, which is obviously so true. But yeah, so it goes to the friends who lift you, shake you and guide you every day, who, no matter the circumstances, know exactly what to say.

They know your joys, your sorrows and when to just pause. There's no contract here, no promises or get out clause. It's empathy, support and endless care for all you do. Just pure platonic love quietly helping you through. And that's what I'm trying to do is share more personal stuff that I've written, because also, I don't share the poems that I write for clients because they're so personal and they're theirs.

Yeah. I think sharing stuff like that is so powerful because it's also universal. And I think the platonic love piece, people don't speak about enough, not only how profound it can be, but also painful it can be when things do change. Because I know that we've gone through, I mean, we were inseparable for all of our teen years. And then I guess it was probably not until like, maybe when

I moved to LA or something. Yeah. Time distance, you know. Yeah. And then for a bit, we went in kind of different directions, but there was always like, there's always an unsaid pain in that. Oh, my God, totally. No one talks about it. It's not like... And it's kind of, you just want to say, look, everything's fine.

We're just doing different things at the moment, but I love you and this is never gonna change. But it is, it's funny, isn't it? Because it kind of happens and time goes... Like, I have to say, I was... You become so much more acutely aware of time as you get older, for sure. And obviously, you know, I'm sure for everyone, it's the same,

but for me, particularly since having children, I am watching these little people, like, grow in front of your eyes. I am literally like, oh, my God, like, it's... It's... And like, this year's nearly, like, it's... It's... I'm like, this year's nearly done. It's just... It's wild. What and how precious it is. Yeah. I'm like, so conscious of being mindful and it's like being in the moment and...

And there's a lot of sort of pressure to be present. I feel like it's everywhere. I go on again on Instagram and everyone's like, you will only have this day, one day in your life. It's like, I'm literally like, fuck. Oh, my God, better do something amazing. Which actually is a bit much, isn't it? Because it's actually the little moments that are the best.

Not the massive ones. Well, I could do, but, you know, not all the time. Fuck, I'd be exhausted. And how do you feel now that you're doing Pinky and that's thriving? I love it. My creative cup is full. But I'm always thinking of ways that I can do more. And I love people and speaking to people.

And I definitely feel like... You know, when you feel like you have so much to give? I'm kind of at that point. I feel like I'm on a bit of a... Well, because also you've always had so much to give. And I feel like you've... If you had to say, you've only really allowed yourself more recently to start giving it. And I think now that the gates have opened,

you're like, oh, wow, there's so much more there. And like you say as well, having that awareness of time, you're like, let's go. Yeah, I need to get on with it. But it's funny, because I wouldn't change anything, because everything's led to this, which is probably the same for you. I read something the other day that's listing all these amazing,

successful people who started their careers, or did the first thing that they did, you know, in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s. And actually, I think there's so much pressure when we're younger to be like, well, what are you gonna be? What are you gonna do? And actually, it's kind of fun if you don't know, because I definitely only found my groove at 35. And that's not even old. if you don't know, because I definitely only found my groove at 35. And that's not even old.

I think also, Peepe, there's this narrative that when you have kids, things are gonna narrow. And I'm sure in many ways they do. But what I love about your story is... You had kids and then you've been like, actually... Yeah. I was literally pregnant with Goldie and I had a call with this... Obviously, I'm not like the most woo-woo person, but I definitely am, so I have Channing because of you. Like, I definitely, like, my Saturn returns,

I've got more into all the astrological side of everything because of you. And I actually think it's super interesting. And so much of it makes sense, you can't really... I now am sort of surrendered to it, And I'm like, yeah, well, it's probably because of the fucking moon, isn't it? Whereas before I would not be as open to it, which I think is really great. But I had a call with a sort of like a reader, a healer.

I don't know what her death, what she is is. Anyway, and she, when I was pregnant with Goldie, and she, I said, I'm thinking of starting this business, and I just, I just need someone to tell me to do it. And she, everything she said about me and about the business, she even told me, she said, you're having a girl, and I didn't know. And I said, have you ever got it wrong?

She said, yeah, once. I was like, okay, fine, it's not, you know, it's fine, might not be a girl. I knew in my gut it was a girl." And I didn't know. And I said, "'Have you ever got it wrong?' She said, "'Yeah, once.'" I was like, "'Okay, fine. It's not, you know, it's fine. Might not be a girl.'" I knew in my gut it was a girl anyway, but... And everything she said has been so spot on. And she was the one who was like, "'Never filter yourself. You have to, it's your true self that is gonna be what gets you, you know, places within your career.'" So, I always think about that and hold on to what she said.

But I do think sometimes you need someone to give you that little push. But as someone that's always had a huge amount of validation from everyone you've ever met, that you are wonderful and funny and that people adore you, what do you think held you back from, I guess, being your true self in that kind of way? Me? Like, the only person holding me back was me. And I don't know, maybe it's because I didn't think I deserved it. Maybe it was because, you know, I think I definitely

have been on a bit of a journey this year. I started doing pilates three times a week. I go to an amazing place in Barnes called Livebody and then I'll roll up my mat and do a briny dairy class and that looking after myself. And I think having children and knowing what kind of role model I would like to be. And for them, yeah, has had like quite a big.

And this lady who I spoke to when I was pregnant, the, you know, the sort of psychic lady, she said that your daughter's, this baby's coming to like teach you something massive and show you like it's a lesson, she's a lesson. And I really feel like she has been, which sounds probably a bit mad. Like a mirror for you.

Yeah, like to sort of, and I've really changed my life this year, sort of with my health and with how I live and how much I'm now a massive walker. Like, I've changed my mindset, but I worked with a coach. A guy called Max Lowry, that was a conscious decision I made at the beginning of the year when I decided I wanted to make these changes. And that's been probably the best thing I've ever done.

He, um, he's incredible and it's changed my whole mindset. Like so much of it is mindset. I was always so worried about like the diet and like doing the keto and whatever. And then actually I changed my mindset and everything sort of kind of falling into place. Like I get to do pilates, I get to walk. Like how lucky am I? Like it's not like, oh God, gotta get to do pilates. I get to walk. Like, how lucky am I? Like, it's

not like, oh, God, I've got to go to a fucking class. Like, it's not like that at all. And it sounds like the smallest thing, but it's really amazing. And in terms of the woo-woo stuff that you're like, kind of... When I sort of went off on that tangent and suddenly was like, what did you, because obviously you've known me so better than anyone. Well now I sort of feel like perhaps I've had a bit more of like a, would we call it a spiritual awakening? It sounds a bit intense. But now I've sort of experienced it. I now understand it a lot more, like where you were at. And I definitely think like having watched you like, you know, even your relationship

with yourself, your relationship with alcohol, like your relationship with your boyfriend, like the way you manage yourself is very different pre you becoming a bit woo-woo. That's a nice way of putting it. It is a nice way of putting it, isn't it? Yeah. Got some really good flashbacks here, but I'll save your... I mean, to kind of add a bit of context,

I think you were the one that coined the name Katrina for me. She was mad. Which was my alter ego when I'd be drinking. It's just like, it was so funny because you... And I know lots of people who have this and haven't done what you've done and kind of... Haven't recognized that perhaps when it gets to a certain point, like, it's not good.

But we'd be, you know, we would go out and we'd drink together and you'd get to this point and I'd look at you and I'd be like, oh, no. Because you would look through me. Like, you would not see me. And actually, in retrospect, it's like, you know, it's like we're so lucky that you didn't get in any trouble or you didn't get hurt or...

Quite scary. It's really scary. It's really scary. And like... And not everybody has that when they drink. No, no, not at all. But you would... It was lights are on and no one's home. And I would talk to you and you would honestly not... You'd be looking over there and you'd sort of go a bit cross-eyed.

And... Which is fine. And it was just... I don't know. Yeah, it wasn't right, was it? No. It wasn't right. And I think that, because I remember that, because the thing is, it was so difficult as is for any situation when anyone stops drinking is that you were really fun to a certain point. And I think that's where- It's tricky.

Yeah. And I remember being like, this isn't right, but obviously there's so many people around you being like, no, cab, you're so fun. Like, come and have another drink. And then you're, I was there being like, oh, God. Who's gonna be the one fucking taking her home? Me and getting you in a cab to go back to your dad's and where we'd always stay. You couldn't remember your pin code to your taxi.

We'd have taxis coming to your poor dad's house ringing the doorbell the next day. I dropped your daughter and friend home. They didn't have any money. No, it was awful. So I guess it was like blackouts, right? But it was walking, talking, fully animated. But that's what was so weird is that you were, you actually almost seem, bar of not being with it and looking a bit not with it, you seemed kind of fine. Like you would totally, like you were physically, you weren't like falling, you know, people get pissed. That's what was so weird. Wasn't sloppy. No, never, which is very strange. Yeah. And I guess that's probably, that was probably the biggest contributor that brought

me to that point where I was like, I really needed to just... I call it like a period of self-inflicted exile, where you're like, I need to just remove myself from everything. Because I also don't think you'd view that you wouldn't feel good, like, hungover, like, mentally. No, it was, yeah. I'd be a bit hungover and I'd be like, -"Ooh, should we go and have a burger?" -"Shok." And you'd be like, sort of...

In turmoil for weeks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But so I think really, actually looking at your sort of wee-wee journey, in turmoil for weeks. Yeah. Yeah. So I think really actually looking at your sort of wee-wee journey, it was the best thing ever for you. But at the time, what did you think? I think when you started talking about the moon and stuff, the thing is I think knowledge is power

and I don't think I really knew, I was a bit kind of like, okay. I come over and she's like got all her crystals out, and I'd be like, Christ, is she gonna sacrifice me? What's going on? But I... And it was also very different. It was really different, because you were quite early. Like, now I think there's so much of it around,

you know, lots of people are really in tune with the universe. Like, now I'm literally like, right, look for a sign, look for a sign. And my sister-in-law, don't forget, is, you know, she's a health coach and she's, you know, she's very into, like, everything, astrology and crystals and, you know. So I think that that opened my mind a bit. But I do think people are scared of what they don't understand and what they don't know. It's not like a rude thing. It's not like I was thinking, oh, God, like, I just kind of was, I didn't really get it.

But you were early for all of it. And now, obviously, there's so, you know, you've raised so much awareness talking about everything. And... And the Saturn returns is, like, fascinating. And then in terms of our friendship, because obviously, I think during that period, it kind of, like, we. And then in terms of our friendship, because obviously I think during that period, it kind of, like, we went off on different paths.

But then I have so many people message me saying, you know, asking to have more episodes or questions around platonic love and friendship and stuff. Yeah, I do. And I always reference us because I do truly believe that when there's that, like, love that is not really to do with who you're growing up with or where you're at school. It's like... No, no.

Wherever we go to in the world, whoever we become, we've managed to kind of, like, find each other again. Totally. And it's such a beautiful thing now because it's like... Still to this day that I don't know really anyone else that knows me like you know me. No. Well, even it's so funny because it transcends any time or distance.

And I know even when I see you, we have such a deep emotional connection where we do know each other like the back of our hands. You know, like the other day you hadn't told me something and I laid eyes on you. And I knew. And I knew. And I didn't... No. But I didn't say anything because I knew you were gonna tell me, and you did. And I said, I knew it. And then... And then you made a joke that I won't repeat. But it's also your ability to kind of see into my head

of the sort of dark, twisty thoughts. You're having a bad day and I made a joke about you walking in front of a car? Yeah, but I know that you were actually thinking that. Because I know where your mind goes. You know, but... For the record, I wasn't serious, but you know when you're just like... Yeah. ...really in your head and just in the field. But even when you ring me, I can hear in your voice,

sort of like within the first 10 seconds, whether there's something that's... And I know that sounds like, oh yeah, of course you can tell one of your oldest friends, but it's like, no, but I really know. Yeah, it's slightly different. And it's the same with you, like it's, you know, it's vice versa. But we are very lucky and to be able to go through

all these phases in our lives and have held each other's hands and sort of been there. And, platonic love is amazing. Like, the joy and happiness that I will feel when we are together and when we are laughing hysterically about all the terrible things that we've done, that I've done, and you let me do. I'm not joking.

You know, that's really magic. You know? And also really magic, you know. And also how lucky are we that we had that childhood that was untouched by technology and social media. I mean, we used to write letters to each other. Remember the letters we used to write to all the boys in the Isle of Wight? I was pen pals.

And we used to write each other letters as well. I remember going to your house in Putney and we'd have like these little post-it notes that we'd have on the mirror of these little messages to each other of like, us against the world. I actually still think I have them at my mom's house. Us against the world, you and me forever, all this stuff. But it was so sweet and it was so true. And then I break down all the swear words

and put them in a pot and my mom found them and was like, never write anything down that you don't want to be read. And I was like, oh my God. That's really good advice. Yeah, but then when she came over my shoulder and I was like 18 writing a list of boys, and she goes, oh darling, are you having a party?

And it was all the boys I'd ever slept with. You were older than 18. I think I was like 25. I was long. You were that tall? Yeah, yeah, I was much older. I think I was at uni, so I must have been like 12. I was like, I was 12. No, I'm joking.

What would you say if you had to, like, of our eras was the one that you look back on most fondly? Funny enough, I think it's something that transcends all eras, and it's any time we're in Sea of You together. And you'll message me, and we have this... There's this alleyway, it's called Dogshit Alley, but anyway, there's this alleyway. And we sit at the end end and it's our spot.

And there's a step and you message me, I'm at our spot. And then I'll walk down and we'd have a diet coke and back in the day we'd have a cig. They're like, yeah, hey, do you fancy? And it was, and that I feel like is somewhere that we consistently will always have no matter what happens, which we're extremely fortunate to have.

That's very true. I think we both like being by the sea. Who doesn't? But also that spot, you're right, because Seaview in itself has this ability to make everything else just... it just brings perspective. You're like, all that other stuff, all the trivial things that I was worrying about just don't. But also that specific area, because it hasn't changed at all. But yeah, year on year, decade on decade,

like, we do and our lives unfold. And then we're kind of brought back to that same space. And it's like, kind of like no time has passed. Which is really special. But I feel so lucky. We've got something really mega, and we always have. Me and you, me or fat sidekick. I've got to say, even though it ended with me being arrested, I think that summer of freedom, when we, yeah. Had the car. We had the car. Did. We had London and we also had the Isle of Wight.

And we were just... Yeah. It was great. I basically moved into your house and partied. I don't know why. I just... Yeah. You just did. Just did. Why not? That was...

It was really good. But yeah, it's so funny. But I look back and I'm like, feel joy and happiness about it. I'm not like, oh, I would do it all over again. Because I actually feel like we're both in really good places where we are now, which is quite a nice thing to sit and say. 100%.

Because there have been moments where we haven't, for sure. What, as in, in ourselves? Yeah. And we've not, we've, you know, we're really reconnecting at the moment as well, you and I. Yeah. And what we've not... We've, you know, we're really reconnecting at the moment as well, you and I. Yeah. The people that are growing up in this time, what would your advice be?

Get off TikTok. Live. There's a lot of pressure on children. And I think that everyone has to grow up really fast. And I'm so conscious of that with my kids. I'm like, no, no, let's preserve that innocence as long as we can. Obviously, like, in a realistic way, I'm not gonna be sort of like, doing something weird when Trix's 20 and... -♪ CHUCKLING... -♪...press-feeding him.

No, but I think, yeah, I think that... Be nice to yourself, for God's sakes. Which actually is something I should have been doing for a lot longer than I have. And what about friendships? Like advice for people that may be kind of dealing with change in direction or shifts in friendship groups. I definitely think our guts are underrated.

And I think if something or someone doesn't feel right, it probably isn't. But that takes age and time to sort of recognize and learn, I do think. But I like God, we used to have I mean, I've now got friends probably I can count on two hands. And before, oh, fuck, it was exhausting. Like a full-time job. It's such a full-time job. But I loved it and I had so much fun, but I definitely know who...

There's like mutual love and respect and support and those that I could really count on now. And I think when we were younger, you mistake a lot of that and you will be there for people who perhaps will not be there for you. But again, that comes with growing up, learning, maybe some heartache, maybe some pain, but you'll work it out, trust your gut.

And for those that would be interested to potentially get a poem with you or to read some of your work, where can they find you? Check out my Instagram, Pinky Studio by Tali. And yeah, inquire on my website and that's chat, but I'm gonna keep sharing more of my personal stuff as well. Keep myself accountable. I started making reels.

God, I think I'm the oldest woman on Instagram. I literally took me about four days to make one the other day. No, then. You are awful. You. I am awful. awful. You're just not, it's like you sort of like born in the wrong era, like social media is like, because obviously it's amazing for like work and stuff, but you're not, technologically you're not gifted. But the world needs to, you know,

hear everything you got to say. And I find it a really tricky media. I mean, thank God for podcasts long enough. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I can't communicate. You're the kind of person who would, like, take a picture of yourself in the dark and then put it up, and we'd be like, we can't see you. I think my first ever Instagram post

was a picture of a packet of Walker's Chris. 100%. So what? I'm surprised it wasn't hula hoops. Hula hoops and an avocado. They're having a comeback in my world. Yeah, unreal. Yeah.

No, well, I'm so proud of you and all you've achieved. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I've loved this. Me too. I feel like we need to do it again. We can. I'd love that. Maybe we'll do an X-rated version. SHE LAUGHS After hours. Thank you for listening to this episode of Saturn Returns. I hope you enjoyed it. And

if you want to check out Tally's work, head to pinkestudio.co.uk where you can find the services that she provides and testimonials. And yes, I hope that you found this episode as enjoyable as I found having it. So thank you so much for listening. And as always remember, you are not alone. Goodbye. Music