Saturn Returns with Caggie - *The Courage to Create* The Art of Letting Go: Releasing your Creation with Courage

Episode Date: November 1, 2024

In this culminating episode of The Courage to Create, Caggie is joined by producer and friend, Luca (aka Biet Et Toi) to close the series with a heartfelt reflection on the transformative power of creativity and courage.  This episode delves into the journey of bringing creative dreams to life—the highs, the hurdles, and the deep personal growth that unfolds along the way. Caggie and Luca explore how creativity is not only about what we make but also about who we become in the process and the courage it takes to keep going, especially when doubt and vulnerability creep in. This final chapter captures the essence of this series—how creative expression, though sometimes daunting, leads to self-discovery, resilience, and a deeper connection with our truest selves. This episode is a celebration of the courage it takes to face fears and step boldly into the unknown. Thank you for joining this journey; may it inspire you to find your own courage to create. Listen to Caggie’s new single “ Breakfast” on your preferred music platform now!

Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Courage to Create. And today's episode is very special because I'm going to be joined by Luca who was the producer of the music project that I have been working on so I'm very excited to share a bit of our conversation with you guys. This whole project has really been about holding myself accountable to put this workout into the world and also to bring you on the journey that I've been on from the very beginning because some of you have followed me for a really long time and for some of you this will be totally new

and perhaps if you're a fan of Saturn Returns you might have thought I have no idea what she's talking about but it's been really important to me and I still maintain that belief that our creativity nurturing our inner worlds and the things that bring us joy and a sense of fulfillment and accomplishment are so worth pursuing they don't necessarily mean financial or monetary or status but they do bring something that is incredibly valuable and as I said at the beginning of this series as we move more and more into this tech driven AI space where there feels like it's less and less room to just be, to allow ourselves to

be bored, to allow inspiration to strike. I worry a little bit about where that leads and that's why I think it's important that we begin practicing our creativity, our creative pursuits as a day-to-day practice. We live in a world where the creative is just not respected, not given the credit. Creatives give literally all the light to this world. We make such profound change, we create people's lives, we decorate people's lives with so much magic, we help people see themselves, we help people feel safe. Creatives are here doing absolute most, the most generous and vulnerable thing that humans do. And so I wanted to reflect a little bit about how creativity forces us to look at parts of ourselves, some of our darkest

parts, and of course it reveals a lot of our light. But I think it brings out the aspects of ourselves that keep us hidden. That's why we have so much resistance around self-expression because naturally as human beings we are wired to protect ourselves so we shy away from sharing our vulnerability because we're afraid of being outcast because we are wired for connection we need to feel part of a tribe. That is how we have survived as a species and so we are programmed to do this but it can be counterintuitive because we all know that when we can share and express ourselves

vulnerably and in a raw way that is when we get the deepest most meaningful connections with not only ourselves but other people. And during this process I have had to face challenges with my own imposter syndrome. Also the loneliness that often accompanies creative pursuits, the doubt, the lack of self-belief, all of the things kind of bubbling up to the surface and just face them head on. Perfectionism and procrastination nearly always go hand in hand

because when we have standards for ourselves that are impossible, it is incredibly hard for us to show up for ourselves. So when we ask ourselves to make perfect art, the chances are is we're going to find it very difficult to show up in a consistent pattern. If you're battling narratives like this, if every time you show up to the page, you're thinking, this isn't good enough. You know, it's just so hard to create when you have an inner critic that loud. I feel like it's got me to this point where putting out my music, it doesn't need to do

anything because I've learnt that the victory is in the doing, it's not in the outcome. And this is where we often get trapped is we think, well if I do this and it fails or it doesn't become this then I don't want to do it because I'll be ridiculed or judged and that's really not true. We have to remember that simply by putting something together and creating an offering to the world that is enough and we do it to the best of our ability and let everything else fall into place as it's supposed to. So working on this EP, which is really what I'm bringing you guys towards, this body of work that I wrote with my friend Luca during the pandemic, we got very lucky that we were able to go to Mexico. He was in LA at the time, I was in London,

and we couldn't get to each other, but we sort of found a loophole that we could actually go and work in Mexico. My brother was out there at the time anyway, so we had this incredible trip and got to just sit and write every day. And I haven't done that with someone in such a long time. And in the previous episodes, I talk about my time in LA and then doing music on Made in Chelsea and that whole journey

But really just working on something with someone for a concentrated period of time with very little distractions forced me to push myself creatively and as a storyteller and whilst whilst I don't, I would never say that I'm the best vocalist, I feel that my skill has always been in the narrative, in crafting the story. Feels like an adaptation of poetry really, songwriting. And so it's felt like a very natural place for me to be and I enjoy it so much. There's few things that I find more satisfying than when I've written a song with someone and then I give it a bit of space and then they send it to me and I get to sit down and listen and obviously it's not always I'm

not always thrilled with it but when I am it is one of the best feelings but my thing is that I then don't put it out into the world because whilst I might enjoy it I always assume that other people will not and I recently put up something which was a sort of throwback to Made in Chelsea and saying that I was putting out new music and I think for those that have followed me for a really long time will know that it was sort of met with mixed reviews should I say on when I was trying to pursue music and I found that very very challenging and so I there's an acknowledgement within my community of being quite brave to be like,

I'm actually going to try and do this again. And that's where the vulnerability comes in. But what feels really good about this is by creating Saturn returns and building out this universe in a way that has allowed me to express myself, I feel very much like I'm doing it with full autonomy, with full creative control. I don't need it to become anything, it's just another string to my bow. And so I can put it out with complete conviction that there's no one telling me what to do,

there's no mastermind behind it. It's really just here is my offering. I love it. It means a lot to me and I hope it means something to you. And this really brings me to an important point that is very much a journey that we are all on. Whilst you might be listening to this and not feel that you are a creative person and that you're not pursuing something in the arts, this is really about the importance of picking yourself. And I think we often grow up wanting so much to fit in and wanting to be seen

that we end up sort of crafting a version of ourselves that doesn't feel very authentic and this totally ties in with the Saturn Returns themes that we get to a point where we are tired of the people-pleasing of the charade of putting on this mask of being somebody that's just not us. But it can be incredibly hard to pick yourself and show up for yourself because it often means walking a path that is unique to you, that not many others have walked before and that can feel scary and lonely and so it's easier to just follow the herd

but we all know when we get to this point where we need to just be free to be ourselves and we stop caring what other people think and we stop caring and needing external validation and again that's what this series and project is about it's about having the courage to design the life that you want for you, not to do with what anyone else feels or says. Designing the life for you and not following the status quo. quote. Some of the biggest themes when I interviewed Amy McNea, who for those that might not be familiar, she goes under inspired to write. The themes that we talked about in that episode were this sort of interlink between procrastination, perfectionism and burnout.

Which I think historically I viewed as different things but when she spoke about it you realize how one thing really leads to the other and how particularly present these are when we are trying to express ourselves because we're going to become more perfectionistic and have more imposter syndrome about the things that matter to us and when we start thinking in this way and spiralling that inevitably leads to burnout and the problem with this because all of these things are natural and normal but the problem is then when it actually stops us from doing the thing

or stops us from enjoying doing the thing it sort of defeats the point and so I wanted to kind of explore those themes a little bit today. Procrastination from what I've seen and what I've experienced with myself is a trust issue. You don't trust yourself. And rebuilding trust, very baby steps each day in small ways, has been the only way I've really seen relationships with self-repair. You don't trust yourself to show up and that is so painful because it's you. There have been so many times throughout my I guess career and working in and out of the music industry where I've been so so close to something and actually to be honest now thinking about it it wasn't exclusive to music it's been pretty much across the board

but I have a tendency to be 90% there with something and then just pull back and I guess it's a form of self sabotage it's a way that I kind of start getting in my own head that something's not right that something needs to be changed that I need to pivot and Even there were thoughts when I wanted to do this series that was like well, you know Things for saturn turns are going well. I think people from the outside were like why are you bringing on a whole new? Theme but I maintain that this was the right thing to do because like I said they all very much feed into each other but it's something that I have to become very aware of is this sort of 90% ready and

then bailing thing and it's actually present in every aspect of my life it's the sort of I guess a fear of commitment in a way because if we don't fully commit to something we can never fully fail and if we don't fail then we don't risk the rejection, the heartbreak, all of the things that we're essentially our egos trying to make us avoid so that we don't feel that pain but the problem is we sort of give ourselves that in mini doses which eventually over time sort of becomes heavier. It's a heavier burden to carry. And I think the more we do it, it's sort of reinforcing this belief that we do not have

our own backs, that we cannot trust ourselves, that our word does not mean very much to us and so we kind of live with this internal disappointment and grief in a way and it's not necessarily something we're consciously walking around with day to day but it just lives inside us all the things that we said we would do that we didn't, all of the things that we said we would put out into the world that we haven't and I feel like everybody has magic inside them I think everybody has at least one brilliant idea but But what most people lack, and myself included,

is the courage to do anything about them. I guess it was probably 2021 when we decided to go to Mexico. Which was the best idea ever, from you. Yeah. Well, I guess I think through recording people and having the experience of working in New York and LA and London so much, I think as I've started to do more serious projects, I realize there's that thing that happens with these major cities where everyone

always has something else to do, someone else to see distractions. And so I've kind of oriented myself towards, on more serious projects or projects that need time devoted to writing or getting into it to get out of the city and go somewhere inspiring and that was when you chose Puerto Escondido. I think we were talking about doing it in Tulum and I'm happy we went to Puerto Escondido. Same. Same. I think Tulum would have been super distracting.

Would have been wild. I think what I'd heard you making maybe was a little bit like electronic dance leaning or something prior to us working together. And I remember meeting you and just thinking you were a lot more like, you were calm and like serene, I guess, maybe is a word I could use. But like, I felt like a sound that was like not super forward, something that was like ethereal or something was maybe like a better place to start where you could essentially

like tell your stories. And I think a lot of the recordings that we've made or a lot of the recordings that we've made or a lot of the songs that we've written they're generated from you telling me a story about something that's happened in your life or a relationship that you want to explore through song, and then we kind of find a way to tell the story through a song. I love the idea of come make me breakfast next weekend. So like so cheeky, but it works.

So. Cause you, I remember you told me, I don't know whether you still use this term, but that you kind of go by the song doula, which I love. Yeah, yeah, I have been referred to as the song doula. Can you expand on what that means? I have a knack for helping people write songs, and I think, I don't know, maybe there's, And I think, I don't know, maybe there's,

there is just the skill of writing a song, which I think a lot of people that I know are very capable of writing songs and write amazing songs. But I think I try to just tap into something with the people I work with that feels honest and isn't just a song. You know, I don't really like to write just any song. I want to write songs with people that are categorically pure and come from them and feel honest.

And so it's a little bit more involved than just playing some chords and writing some lyrics. I think the people I work with, I tend to establish genuine friendships with and genuine trust. I tell people that are interested in working with me that we need to eat food together and have a conversation. It's not as simple as just turning up and writing your song. I need to kind of understand who you are as a person, how you talk, how you dress, what you're interested in. And then I can sort of use that information to get a picture of how you would sound honest in a song and what you really are. And there's the way to honestly present what you want to say

that sounds like it's honest to you. And exploring those avenues and being okay with kind of failing at it as well. You sort of have to allot yourself the time to try something and see if it's working or not. My priority now is establishing genuine relationships with the artists I work with. And then it just becomes so much more fulfilling because you feel like you're on some sort of adventure with someone. And at the end of it, you feel like you've lived

this like Lord of the Rings trilogy. Okay, let's talk a little bit about the songwriting experience in Mexico. Because I remember, I think it was quite early on, you said something along the lines of, you know, drawing outside the lines and painting with different colors than what one's used to. And I found that really important because I think you can get stuck in just doing, writing the same kind of song, the same sort of structure. And you, I felt like in that experience you really pushed me in my sort of lyrical capacity to be more of a storyteller and tell important stories.

Yeah, I think there was, I call them like crutches maybe. It's when somebody has a tendency to gravitate towards either the same couple words in a song. Like I was talking to someone the other day, like showed me their EP. And it was clearly about a lot of it had to do with this relationship or whatever. And the third song was a lot of like, I this, I that,

I that, and then the next song it was like, I this, I that. I just thought maybe, you know, and then the next song, it was like, I this, I that, and I just thought maybe, you know, you're sort of focused on where, you know, yourself and like, you feeling this way, but maybe if you could shift the story around to be from someone else's perspective or maybe not think that every song has to be like the I thing, you know. But I think, you know, acknowledging certain crutches or where your comfort zone is, and your comfort zone is actually like a safe place.

You know, you have that bag. When it's time to sit in your comfort zone, you sit in your comfort zone. But when you're expanding on the story, I think you have to just get outside of your comfort zone. And that comes, like, especially with us, I think we were, you know, especially with us, I think we were, you know, it's like don't be afraid to like fail.

Don't be afraid to like try this. Nobody else is going to hear it if it's bad. And at least we know. And let's just expand outside of what we're used to and just see where we end up. Because at the same time, you know, it is uncomfortable and when you're doing it, sometimes you do it kicking and screaming. But it takes, I think, perspective as well.

Because as soon as you do something that's uncomfortable and you don't wanna do it, you have that fat taste in your mouth, you're embarrassed, you're like, oh, don't look at me, you know? But put it away, just put it away for a second. And then when you're over those feelings, when you come back to it, you know, you normally notice something brilliant that you did, or you're just enlightened with a new potential. And I guess that's all it really is about is

finding and creating new potential for territory that you can go to with your writing and with your recordings and just seeking purity in anything you do. And sometimes that comes with letting go and you can't really find that truth unless you're willing to fail doing it. And you seem to have a very disciplined approach to songwriting. Like I remember you were like, we're gonna finish it. Even if it's shit and we don't like it, we're gonna stay here and finish it.

And that's something that stuck with me because I feel like I'm someone that can be inclined to start things and not finish them or kind of get to 90% done and then pull away. Because it's almost like you have the most resistance around the end of anything. Is that something that you've had to work on? Definitely. There's the classic, someone shows you a song.

Like, oh, I haven't written the second verse yet. Like, okay, oh, I haven't written the second verse yet. Like, okay, well, hope that... why are you showing me the song? Like, what's the point? What's the point? Like, tell your story, like, finish the thought, you know? Like, when you are on the thread of writing something, like a song or anything, creating anything, to get to that place where you are in that zone of explaining that thing, it takes like, it's like you get, it's like you're walking through this maze and you find this sanctuary and to get to that sanctuary that you're walking through this maze and you find this sanctuary and to get to that sanctuary that

you're like locked in on you had to go through this maze that you had you just had to guess like am i going left or right here it all looks the same i don't know but somehow you landed on this this place so staying there and like to get there is a process. And so that's why I always encourage finishing an idea completely, you know, cause for a lot of people, for some people they can tap right back in and get that thing finished and you don't really worry about it.

But for most people, you might just never see that song finished if you don't finish worry about it. But for most people, you might just never see that song finished if you don't finish it then and there. You need to acknowledge the factors that led you to getting to the point where you have begun something and holding yourself accountable to finishing it, whether it's good or bad, will only serve you better, and especially in exhibitionary practice. That's so true. Is there anything else you've noticed working with artists and creatives that they tend to do to sabotage themselves or block themselves that's like a regular theme that comes up? Because I remember even when we came to recording, like when it actually came to the recording part,

do you remember you would call them demons? I would have these like vocal demons where I would kind of cut up the words and it was almost like I'd get so in my own head when I was actually doing the takes. Yeah, I mean, that's where the trust comes into play. Like I tend to be this like companion for people, you know, through the writing and recording process

and learning that trust allows for someone, you know, it's like, I don't know, I was just working on a project and we had like, you know and we've been working on it for a year. And there's almost a hundred songs we're choosing from and at this point it was like, okay, we're going in to record the album. Let's choose, it's going to be a 10 to 12 song album, let's choose just 15 to focus on because if we go into the studio with everyone, we're doing all this, like, we can't possibly entertain

the idea of almost 100 songs. We need to be kind of focused and what is this album saying? Okay, great, we got the 15 songs. And then as we're recording, you know, the majority of them all kind of fit into this vibe of the album that felt like, okay, this is what we've been working towards. This is it. And then there were like a couple where it was like, I can't let you record, like, I can't let you put this out. I can't let you be seen doing this like this because I love you and I'm your friend and you are you this this this is objectively. It's a good song

but It doesn't fit if you put this song in with this group of songs it's it doesn't make sense I can't like you know and it doesn't make sense. I can't like, you know, and helping someone kind of like look in the mirror and see themselves from the outside because you get attached to things or styles and stuff. And I think, yeah, like, there was a very big resistance for it. But as things came to fruition with that project, it became increasingly obvious that like, a couple of these songs that we wanted to do were like

never going to Enhance what was already going on in the album despite them also just being good songs but you have to be like super intentional and you have to be like realistic with yourself and Sometimes you know you you will you'll make a song. I'll make a song, and I'll go show someone, and nobody's going to tell you it's bad. Like realistically, nobody's going to be like, you know, you show someone, oh that was really great, yeah, it kind of sounds like this, that's great, yeah. And you're like, be real with me.

And so that's kind of where I sort of hold myself to be in the process is kind of being like that person who's like is sort of saying and being real with someone and being like, yeah, look, like, I know how much this means to you, but there's these couple things that really need to be acknowledged and looked at if you want this to be as good as you want it to be. And sometimes that, and most of the time that comes with the person, the artists looking inward and doing that work or looking in the mirror and being real with themselves and acknowledging it.

You know, there's been times I guess I may have been, like I'm wrong, I fail all the time, but there's plenty of songs I feel maybe should have been on albums that didn't end up on albums or whatever. And that's yeah, just kind of how it goes. But I guess it's the importance of also just having the courage to put things out into the world as well, right? I think so. And that courage comes with vision, right?

So you have an artist who has a vision for themselves and then you have me who has a vision for the artist and You know maybe they're like slightly aligned but to get them to be completely aligned Requires trust and and that's that's all there is to it Being courageous in our creative pursuits isn't about never feeling fear, doubt or resistance, but it is about showing up anyway and embracing the uncertainty

and trusting that the act of creating will lead us somewhere meaningful, even if it's not where we initially planned. And I can recognise this throughout my life that when I have really given myself and devoted myself to something, creatively and been disciplined about it, and as I spoke about in previous episodes my time in LA when I was working with this guy called Alex, he really encouraged me to do this, to commit fully and whilst I did sort of spin out towards the end and pull the plug sort of again 90% ready,

I recognise now what those things taught me about showing up to anything. So that's my point is showing up to anything. So that's my point is, committing to something fully, to express something to the best of your ability now, is not about it having to be perfect or that it has exactly the results you want. But it's about learning that we can trust ourselves. And then when we do that, we can apply the same process and the same principles to other things down the line. So courage in this context means giving ourselves permission to be imperfect, to try and fail and to explore new parts of ourselves without needing to have all the answers. It means silencing that inner critic, even if just for a moment and taking a

leap of faith towards what lights us up. So for me releasing this EP is a way of stepping into my own creative power and saying yes to the things that scare me and I hope that it encourages you to think about where you can say yes to yourself too and feel the fear and do it anyway. Whether it's picking up a paintbrush, starting a sub stack, a blog, writing the song or letting yourself daydream a little bit more about a business plan that you have that you're just a bit afraid to start. Just to be brave enough to create from that place of curiosity and from truth because I truly believe that when we

have an idea that lives inside us for a really long time, it wants to be expressed through us and it has chosen us for a reason. So as we continue on this journey remember that creativity is a process, it's not a destination and it's about honoring who you are right now and that doesn't mean you have to be married to some future idea of yourself it's about being present in what's true for you in this moment and that will change and you might look back and think I actually wouldn't do that anymore but that doesn't matter because you have to just do what feels right for you now and being willing to grow and evolve along the way and allow yourself the space to do so. I actually called Amy recently

because I was feeling a bit nervous about putting out this project and knowing that that made me... that held me accountable for putting out the music and I think that's really where the fear was. And we spoke for a while and then afterwards she sent me this voice note and it was essentially saying this isn't gonna be perfect it's gonna be messy you're gonna mess parts of it up and that's still okay and at the time I was like oh that's really useful but the the further away from her sending that that I've got the more I realize what she was saying it's like enjoy doing it anyway. Do it messy, do it tired, do it imperfect, just do it. And that's what I hope to leave you guys with.

Hi, I was just having a few come to Jesus moments for myself. We have to try so hard to be messy in our creative process and like let go of the perfectionism as we make the music and as we write the books etc. But then we also have to know that when we market our art and stuff it will also continue to be messy. Like it's super important that you continue to champion your music but it's also super important for you to know that you won't be able to do it perfectly and that it will be messy and that you're going to fuck it up and that it won't be perfect and that that's okay. You don't need to perfectly mark it and put your music out there. Like perfectly it just needs to be out there in some form or another. Anyway, random thoughts. This is the final episode of Courage to Create so thank you so so much to everyone that has

listened that sent me a message about it. I hope you've enjoyed the slightly different sort of content from Saturn Returns and myself and if you have enjoyed it please write us a review or send me a message or write a comment on Spotify because it's really important to me to get the feedback and to hear from you guys. Also I'm very pleased to say that mine and Lucas song Breakfast is out now so you can listen to it wherever you get your music. I would love it if you could share it on social media and let me know what you think and I'm very very pleased to finally put it out into the world so I hope you have

enjoyed being on this journey with me. Thank you so much for listening and as always remember you are not alone. Goodbye.