Saturn Returns with Caggie - Unlocking the Body's Wisdom: Exploring Spinal Energetics with Dr. Sarah Jane

Episode Date: November 25, 2024

In this enlightening episode of Saturn Returns, Caggie is joined by Dr. Sarah Jane, founder of Spinal Energetics - a revolutionary healing modality that bridges Eastern and Western traditions to help individuals release trauma, tension, and resistance. During their conversation, Dr. Sarah Jane delves into her unique journey of developing Spinal Energetics and how it works by engaging with the body’s energetic field and nervous system. This groundbreaking approach goes beyond physical spinal adjustments to address the root causes of physical and emotional issues. Through profound cathartic releases and shifts in perception, Spinal Energetics empowers individuals to reconnect with their innate wisdom and life force. Together, Caggie and Dr. Sarah Jane explore: 🪐 The origins of Spinal Energetics and how it integrates principles of both Eastern and Western healing philosophies 🪐 How the modality unlocks tension and trauma by addressing patterns in the body’s energetic field and nervous system 🪐 The connection between the spine and personality types, uncovering how tension patterns often reflect emotional and psychological states 🪐 Caggie’s personal experience of a Kundalini activation, and the parallels between Kundalini energy and Spinal Energetics work 🪐 The importance of creating safe spaces for transformative experiences and how these sessions foster a deeper connection to oneself Dr. Sarah Jane’s work is a powerful reminder of the body’s innate ability to heal, and the profound wisdom it holds. Tune in for a thought-provoking and inspiring conversation about transformation, healing, and the potential of Spinal Energetics to change lives. — This episode was made possible by our friends at East Healing. Visit easthealing.com today to explore their full range of acupressure products and start your journey to enhanced well-being. For a limited time, you can enjoy an exclusive discount with the code ‘SATURN15’ at checkout. Follow or subscribe to “Saturn Returns” for future episodes, where we explore the transformative impact of Saturn’s return with inspiring guests and thought-provoking discussions. You can follow Caggie Dunlop on Instagram and subscribe to her Substack “You Are Not Alone" to stay updated on her personal journey. You can also find Saturn Returns on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok. Order the Saturn Returns Book here!

I have long been a fan of Chinese medicine healing tools, so I am delighted to share our partners for this season of Saturn Returns, the amazing East Healing. Formerly known as AcuSeeds, East Healing is the UK's leading ear seed brand and a luxurious destination for holistic health enthusiasts, blending the ancient art of acupressure with modern elegance. You may have seen them receive investment from Steven Bartlett on Dragonstone back in January. My mum gifted me an AcuSeeds ear seed kit for my birthday this year and I've been a fan ever since. These small beads are placed on the ear to stimulate pressure points, helping aid stress,

anxiety, headaches, sleep, and improve overall wellness. I love their luxury take on this ancient healing tool. Their collection includes 24 karat gold Swarovski crystal, pearl, and nickel-free options. Visit EastHealing.com today to explore the full range of acupressure products and start your journey to enhance wellbeing. For a limited time, you can enjoy an exclusive discount with the code SATIN15 at checkout.

Hello everyone and welcome to Saturn Returns with me, Kagi Dunlop. This is a podcast that aims to bring clarity during transitional times where there can be confusion and doubt. Today I had the pleasure of sitting down with Dr Sarah Jane, who is the founder of Spinal Energetics, which is a unique healing modality that integrates Eastern and Western traditions to address physical, mental and energetic health. With a background in chiropractic care, psychology and holistic counselling, Dr Sarah Jane developed spinal energetics to work with the body's natural healing ability by engaging the spine,

nervous system and energetic field. Her approach aims to release deep-seated trauma, tension and resistance, creating balance and alignment across all layers of a person's wellbeing, mind, body and spirit. After this interview, I had the pleasure of having a session, a spinal energetic session, which is unlike anything I've ever experienced before, aside from it sort of deeply relates to me with Kundalini, sort of a Kundalini activation. And this is utterly bizarre. And I think if you're observing it, it looks quite strange.

But I'm a big believer in these modalities. And each session involves light touch and sometimes no physical contact. But it allows people to access an intuitive cathartic release and it's deeply influenced by diverse modalities like network spinal analysis, Reiki, craniosacral therapy and philosophies from Buddhist and Hindu traditions with a focus on empowering individuals connect with their own innate wisdom and life force energy which is Kundalini energy. So I hope you enjoy this sort of educational aspect of Sarah's work as she discusses it

in this conversation and we will be sharing a video of her in action doing a session on me. So I hope you enjoy that and watch it on social media and we'll put it up on YouTube. And thank you so much for listening. Sarah, welcome to The Southern return to Honka. Thank you for having me. I'm actually really, really excited to be here in your home. It's beautiful. In my home.

In your home. And your home is Australia. It is. So I've come very far. A little, about a 23 hour flight, but yeah, that's kind of normal for Australia. If you want to leave Australia, you've got to go quite far, which I know is different for you guys. Yeah, Europe, it's great. It's a whole thing. But I always love having Australians in the

show because I feel like my soul, now there's my spirit at home. Well, judging from our conversations prior to this podcast, I think there's a little secret Australian in you. We're quite free-spirited you know and we and we love to laugh and have just you know enjoy life which I feel like you do too. Oh thank you, thank you. I hope like fair but for the audience that might not be familiar with your work we should be able to give a little bit of a brief introduction as to who you are and the work that you do which I'm so excited to get into. I will try to sum it up as quick as I can for you. Well my name is Dr. Sarah Jane. I'm a chiropractor from Melbourne, Australia, as you said, and I have a modality

called Spinal Energetics and it's a beautiful modality, but also creating a bit of, I guess, interest around the world currently just because it's working within the energetic field, which I guess in the past has been considered, you know, a little bit more woo woo. We're not touching the physical body. So it's a little bit more challenging for, I guess, more rational or logical people to understand how we're impacting when we're not touching.

But it's also creating a lot of curiosity in people's minds, which I think is pretty exciting. Yeah, I mean, we're gonna get into it and have a demonstration of actually how it works. It practices me, which I'm super excited about because usually, you know, this is always just conversational, but I'm really, I feel a bit nervous about it, but in a very good way. Yeah.

But so kind of bringing it back to your origin story. Yeah. What happened for you to end up in the work that you're doing now? Yeah, look, it wasn't a conscious decision, if that makes sense. A lot of things kind of occurred in my life, which if you had ever told me, you know, 15 years ago that I'd be an energetic worker or healer, I would have said, no, I don't think that's quite it.

I was working as a fashion stylist at the time and I had finished my psychology degree. So I was planning on becoming a psychologist, but in Australia you do an undergraduate and then you go on to do further training. And just something wasn't quite fitting for me. I love the idea of learning more about humans and why we are the way we are, why we think the way we think, but in terms of the diagnostic around it where you kind of get labelled and there's like a manual called a DSMV and you look up the symptoms and then if you tick

enough boxes that's what you are and that's what you have and I found it just missed a lot of the context and a lot of the human experience as to why someone gets to that point and why someone is experiencing those kind of things in their life so I felt like it wasn't taking a holistic approach. I studied a minor in world religions so Buddhism and Hinduism predominantly so I had a huge interest in Eastern philosophy from a really young age. So I ended up going and traveling to Southeast Asia like every 20-something year old kind of does, you know, went to India and Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, you know, all these

kind of places in a session to try and find myself or find something and became a yoga teacher and a meditation teacher and got quite involved in Vipassanth. Do you have them here in England as well, Vipassanth? I don't know, I think so. Yeah, they're like a silent 10 day meditation course. Right. Yeah, yeah. So I've got to be weird. I've never done that.

I feel like I could do that. It's like being in silence with people. It's beautiful. It's hard and challenging at times because you can't escape anything. You can't even have a book. So you can't read, you can't listen to music, you can't journal, you can't even look at anyone in the eye. So it's a very, very introspective. By about day four or five though, you actually start to really enjoy it but their belief is that there's energetic I guess misalignments in your body as well they call them Sankaras and through meditation that's what you're actually moving and I just found that hugely beneficial in my life and came back to Australia and kind of was a bit like hmm I love fashion I love design but it's not quite quite it, quite it. Um, I'm a creative being, but I wanted something still a little bit more purposeful and not so, I guess, business driven by numbers and things like that. So there's a search engine called seek.

Have you heard of that for job search? You haven't heard of this. It's like Australia's version of, you know, where you go to look for a job and there's keywords and I was just looking for something more meaningful. So I typed you meaningful into the into the keywords but you know people expect like I had this kind of huge like I don't know download yeah to get to this point but I did and it's just you know it's just been a very human experience and I typed in meaningful and the only job that came out was for a chiropractor

and I didn't really know what chiropractic was. Have you done the psychology yet? Yes, I've done that. And I was like, and I was a holistic counselor and yoga meditation teacher and working in that way. And I was like, all right, I'm going to apply. And I applied and somehow got the job with no experience. It was to be like a practice manager.

But I walked into this center and my whole life, I've always felt a bit different. You know, I'd, I'd, I'd even be at home and say, like, or feel like this uni within me that was kind of like, I want to go home, which was strange because I already was home. So I've never really felt like I really belonged in this world as such. Um, I felt like people got a manual about how to behave and what to do and, and how to kind of live. And I've never got a manual about how to behave and what to do and how to kind of live and I've never got the manual. When I wrote the Satsuma-Tan's book, the beginning of it, it was like I felt like everyone got sent their handbook of life and mine got lost in the mail.

I'm still looking for mine and never quite turned up. So there was always this sense like everyone got something that I didn't get, like I just, and not in a bad way, like I've kind of always, I guess, used it to help me in this life as well. Like, you know, people who meet me, they can tell that I've got a different kind of way that I interacted with the world, but I wanted to create my own world within the world. That's something I was really always yearning for. And anyway, she inspired me so much. Her name's Dr. Carly. She's created a technique called spinal flow, which is What also inspired inspired my work. So this is where you got the job. This is where I got the job Okay, and she was there sort of mentor. She was a mentor for me. Yeah, and I walked in I was like this is home

This is it. She had like all the books on Buddhism and you walked in and just felt like you you know It was just it wasn't just about the body. It was about your whole way of life, your soul. So she was sort of using the Eastern and the Western. Yeah, she was definitely from more of a chiropractic, like physicality point of view, but The chiropractor is, it's body works sort of, I think I've been, can you explain what it is? Yeah, so I'm not entirely sure myself to be honest. So traditional chiropractic works. So it's clicking.

Yeah. So there's a manual adjustment. There's a cracking involved. Um, whereas she kind of inspired me to think about how can we get the same results as that without having to manipulate the spine, because, you know, if you think about it, you obviously haven't been to the chiropractor too much, but we believe there's like a misalignment in the spine. And then you go and get manipulated and then it goes back.

That's the notion of the philosophy behind chiropractic. But what usually tends to happen is the body's innate wisdom is really smart. So the body, we're not really dealing with the root cause because what do you think happens like a week later? It does this. And so I went back and I studied to be a chiropractor for five years. I did applied science and clinical science with distinction and I did my postgraduate studies in Buddhism as well. But what I was finding was that it kept coming back, kept coming back, kept coming back.

And so I wanted to work with the directly with the innate intelligence and how we do that through the energetic field. So with spinal, if it's gone this way, we actually access it through the field, which has the root causation. Maybe it's an emotional reason, and that's the emotional layer that we work within the field. Maybe it's a mental reason, maybe it's a spiritual reason, maybe it's a physical reason. And what we do is we find connection within the disconnection in the field itself and we access through there. And the movements that you see in the video is actually people maneuvering to actually align themselves. And you can hear cracking sometimes spontaneously through the body. How do you do that?

How do you do it? How do you do it? How do I do it? Look, everyone's got the ability to do it. I'd like to say I'm special. We all are special, but um. Because it does look like sort of witty stuff going on. It does.

And that's probably why it's, I mean, the nature of this podcast is all over this kind of thing. So for me, this is heaven to have no one. And I'm like, I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. And that's probably why it's, I mean, the nature of this podcast is all over this kind of thing. So for me, this is heaven to have you on.

But I'm sure some people looking at it, it almost looks like there's a possession or an exorcism going on. Yeah, well, essentially in the West, the only time we've ever seen movement like that in our media is through things where that's occurring. Whereas people in the East, for example, or even in India, if they were to see the work, and when I go there and do it, no one even questions or even they don't think it looks strange. They already have an awareness of energy and they already have the awareness that the body can move through it. And they already have, I guess, I don't know, an honouring of that system that maybe we just haven't quite worked out

here in the West. So as soon as we see something where someone looks like they're out of control of their body, we think it's bad or we think that it's something to be fearful of. Also- Do you get a lot of that kind of- Not from- Online.

Not as much as you would think. Occasionally, yes, but usually from people who come from, you know, more of a very close-minded kind of way of thinking and my job's not to change their mind. The work is there for people who want to see it and we do occasionally get skeptics who come in and what I love about spinal as well is it's so tangible so you can't deny it. So it really changes their whole belief system because they feel it. You know in other energetic techniques like Reiki for

example I'm a Reiki master and that was another way I got interested in this work. I basically did as many modalities as you could think of and created almost an emerging of the best parts that worked for me in my personal journey. So we used the energetic centers from Reiki, but usually when people go get a session like that, they feel calm after, or they might have fallen asleep, or they're subtle. And so here we're working with a pretty tangible experience that you really can't deny. And if you didn't believe in energy before, you definitely will have done.

In terms of what it actually does for the individual, let me get into some of the benefits and also if you are able to explain how you kind of move from the chiropractic world into this, because obviously you're not physically touching people, or if you are, it's very, very mild. Very light. Very light. But they're having these huge physical responses, and their whole systems are moving in a way that they wouldn't ordinarily move. Correct. Well, there's this idea that to impact more, you have to touch the density more, and that's our first misconception. All right. So in chiropractic, there's this idea that to impact more, you have to touch the density more. And that's our first misconception.

All right. So in chiropractic, there's certain techniques. There's one called network spinal, where they work on the sacrum and the cervical spine, and that's basically your pelvis and your neck. And the reason they work there is there's these tissues, they're called the meninges. And the meninges are these white fatty tissues, and they're basically the whole communicator for the nervous system. So between the spine and the brain. And what happens is you can make a very light touch with a huge impact because there's more meninges in those areas. And that's kind

of where I first got the idea of it. But essentially, if the meninges are there in the physicality, they have to exist in the field as well. So that's why we work off the body as well. It's a misconception that this is where we end. We don't end here. You know, and that's science. You know, if you look down in terms of this chair existing, there's science that suggests that it literally isn't there and it is energy. So there's a lot of science that supports it, so to speak, but not specifically for these kinds of modalities.

But there was other things that I experienced, something called Bowen therapy, where they work really lightly on the tissue. So we actually tissue pulled to kind of connect to those tissues initially. And we're finding tension patterns in the spine. So what we're looking for is tension patterns, which could have stored metaphysical things, it could have stored emotional things, the root causation as to why the tension has been created. And a lot of the time, especially in our society, it's stress related or emotional related,

and they haven't actually had a physical injury, so to speak, to create that kind of tension. And this makes sense. So if people go out and go get a massage, for example, they feel good for a couple of days, but then the body starts to tense up again. And that's because we're not actually working with the reason as to why the muscle is creating that tension in the first place. So kind of going back to what you previously mentioned about even if you go to chiropractor and they sort of realign you it will go back because the emotional the spiritual component is still misaligned or the body will misaligned to kind of stay in that space. Exactly and you're

only working with the physicality so that's a very limited way to work. Whereas you're working with the energy. We're working with the field. Yeah. And so within that, because people have these, you know, huge breakthroughs during these sessions, because so I think we're becoming a lot more aware that everything is stored in the body and we're able to trauma. So in terms of when that comes up, if you're sort of feeling that in someone's body

and it's a lot for them to release, how do you kind of manage holding that space for what's gonna come through? Because obviously it might be 10 years of therapy in one session. We have been told that before. So this isn't a bypassing work. You really do have to,

sometimes you're in the trenches in terms of the experience of the session. You know, it's not always blissful, so to speak. Okay, but you have to think about it. If the body hasn't been able to integrate something that's occurred in your life, whatever it might be, there's a reason for it. And it's usually because it's painful and emotionally painful more so than anything. So, you know, there has to be an understanding of duality. If that emotional pain is there then you've got the ability for the bliss too but you can't bypass it. And we

don't want people to bypass it. We want people to actually have those divided parts actually come together within them and how do we do this? We do this with the field and it's hard for people to make sense of how something when you're not touching someone can create such a response. But we're very lucky in terms of this era where we've got books like The Body Keeps the Score and we've got Gable Marte and people like that who are really essentially creating this notion that the mind and the body and the emotions aren't separate. So if you aren't dealing with your emotion and you're storing it there for later, that later is actually your nervous system. And that's why we can feel in your

body what's occurring. So you'll see after in terms of the session, I'll say, well, this means this or this means that, and it will resonate. And it's not that I'm a psychic or I can read special things. It's literally the body is communicating about what is stored and why. And is that from your experiences that you can now see, okay, I know what that is, whereas at the beginning, the beginning was quite interesting. Because you know, I took lots of different things and inspiration from a lot of different modalities. So, you know, it took me a long time and a lot of curiosity and a lot of comfort in terms

of being a beginner's mind and being open to what the body was sharing. So once I stepped out of this idea that I'm doing something to someone as a practitioner and I orchestrated it in a way where I'm facilitating but co-facilitating with the person on the table and me and that their body is in constant communication, then it became a lot easier rather than me trying to make the body do something. Does that make sense? So the body is always communicating and we know that too sense? So the body is always communicating and we know that too and even our souls are always communicating and occasionally we don't listen to that and then it usually has to become a physical issue in order for us to listen to it and that's

why sometimes it does delve into that physicality. Well someone said to me recently that your soul communicates often through your nervous system. That makes a lot of sense, yeah it really does. If you're living life in terms of not being aligned with your soul then your physicality can't be aligned either and whatever happens on the table is really a reflection of what's happening in your life so they're not separate, they're a representation of that. I think the thing is we can often rationalize with you to do a thought to kind of disregard what our body and our intuition are telling us because it doesn't fit the narrative that we're trying to sort of force ourselves into.

Yeah, definitely. And I think where a lot of, I guess, the fear or apprehension in regards to the sessions are is that there's an idea of not being in control. And for the Western, we want to be in control because if we're not in control, something could happen and we become fearful. But once you create an environment where they can relinquish that, and they realize that there's safety

and this kind of this idea of unconditional love in the field, then that's really where the work starts. Yeah. But also, I guess it's not only a thing, it's a shattering of identity and belief systems that can occur because it's such a, it's such a physical experience that's spiritual. Yeah, it really is. And it's perception changing. So a lot of what we've gone through life, it's not necessarily the experience, it's our beliefs around the experience. So we are kind of looking for

giving you more perception and more space around these things and therefore it stores differently. If you can if you can change perception, and we can all go through that rationally and logically, like we all know what we should do. Like for example, like, yeah, I should let that go. But actually getting to the space of actually letting that go is a very different. It's a very different experience. So if you're actually embodying that through

the session where you no longer think that you need to let go, but you actually do, and you actually feel that, then it's a very, very profound experience for a lot of people. But why we get these specific experiences is really in my belief. We're working to the root causation. So we find tension patterns in the spine. These tension patterns represent different things. Can we talk about some of those? Yeah, of course. So for example, upper neck tension, that usually is a type A personality.

So these people usually have neck tension, sleeping issues. They either can sleep, but they feel fatigued still when they wake up. So it doesn't matter whether they slept eight hours, 20 hours, they feel the same. Or they have trouble getting to sleep or staying asleep. They also have brain fog. They also are very wired but tired.

So they're on but like can't sleep at the same time. And they're usually perfectionists and they're fearful of failure. So for example, I'm thinking you're a process A, which is why I'm talking about this. I don't think I am. You will be. Yeah, yeah. I'm thinking of someone else. I'm thinking of is why I'm talking about this. I don't think they are. You will be.

Yeah. I'm thinking of someone else. So you will be. It's also sorry. You're surrogating that in a spiritual level for your partner. Hopefully he doesn't mind that I'm saying that. So it's actually not your process A, it's his process A. What do you mean?

I can feel it in your field. You can feel it. All right. Yeah. Yeah. So no, but I can still interact with your field. So that's usually what's occurring. So it's not your process. Hey, it's his process.

Hey, but because the way that he functions in the life, there's a, there's a sense where you want to help him and say, because you're so empathetic and because you want that for him, you take it on. So you've actually got neck tension because of your partner, so to speak, which is okay though, because what happens is when we do your session today, it's actually gonna change his. So we don't need to work on him if we're working on you.

And the reason that can be as well is because of something called the, have you heard of the Maharaj effect? So the Maharaj effect is so the, do you get headaches or anything like that or any neck tension? I don't think so. I think I often carry a massive bag. So I have quite a lot of tension in my right shoulder. It's not physical tension. So yeah, it won't be from carrying the bag. Yeah, that's not it.

So it's an emotional tension and I'll show you, it's exactly on your neck. I can show you now if you want to. How do you know that it's on my neck? Yeah, I can feel it. Do you wanna feel it? I'll quickly do it. I'll quickly get up.

Excuse my ass. This is already gonna squeeze me out. Sorry, I can't feel it, I'll quickly get up, excuse my out. This is so heavy, can you bring me out? Sorry, can you feel it? Sorry, let me just get in here. Sorry, can you feel that? Oh, yeah. So that's your partner's tension and it's on your right side and the right side represents masculine,

which is why only you'll see your partner and not for you. So you're holding his. So did you feel the tension in there in the upper neck? Yeah, yeah, neck? So we'll work with that later today and you'll be able to think so much more clearer. You'll be able to have more creativity. Um, cause it feels like that's kind of stopped for you. Yeah. So, but it's just the field. So I'm spreading a field. That's it. So there's, there's, anyone can do that. You can teach me to do that. I can teach you to do that. Yeah. Yeah. So I just worked in it so much that I can, I can sense the tone. It's almost like, um, piano planes on the piano player,

pianist, pianist, piano player, not a great one. So I don't want to say pianist, but you can tell when you're on C when you hear C. So it's like that same kind of thing. I can feel the tone of what a process A. For more experiences, you're like, okay, I know what this is. Yeah, that is. But I knew it wasn't yours. But it's storing in you.

Okay, that's it, Kara. So sorry, so the Maharaj effect. So basically what they were doing is they were sending really experienced meditators into high criminal rate areas. And criminals weren't meditating, but the criminal rate lowered extensively. Just by their presence. Just by their presence.

So the similar thing will happen. When we change your field, there's no way that that can't impact your partner and vice versa. And you know- But if it's not, is it not like the alignment thing where it goes back or is it different? No, the reason it doesn't go back is

because we're working with the actual root causation of why it went there in the first place. So what I would do is I'd work in your spiritual layer in terms of your energetic field and the spiritual layer is where we surrogate for everyone else or how we hold on everyone else's emotion and that's where your resonance will be. That's where your connection within your disconnection, your tension pattern will be. And so by accessing it from there, we're getting to the actual intelligence to go, hang on, I actually don't need to carry this for him anymore.

This isn't mine. I can let this go. I've got the safety and looking after him isn't my job or whatever. And it's not as conscious as that. It's working with the unconscious because you know, we're only working 5% conscious level most of the time anyway. So we want to work with the unconscious. And again, this won't be going through your head when we're doing the session.

And is it even obviously we're having a conversation about it, but when you do these sessions, is any of the stuff brought up or discussed or is it just you just... Sometimes I will verbalize it if I feel it's necessary for the person to be able to, you know, shift or I think it will be optimal for them. But a lot of the time I choose not to verbalize. Is it necessary to do certain follow up things things to avoid me going back? Um, not necessarily, no, because the field changes and we believe what happens in the field occurs first and then it occurs in the physical. So if we're changing the field, those kind of things aren't necessary. Okay, what are some of the other notes,

so to speak, that are common? Yeah, look, we teach six predominant, you know, common tension patterns within people. So another one can be in the pelvis. And that happens a lot with people who feel like they have lower back pain or maybe sciatica, which is like the nerve root that goes through the pelvis could be inflamed. It can be just tight muscles through that area

or lower back pain, so to speak as well. Breastless legs, maybe they're not getting circulation in their feet, little things like that, sometimes digestive issues as well. And they're called a process E. And those people when they're showing that layer, again, there's a whole bunch of things. We're very intricate. We're not saying you're just one thing, but the system prioritizes which one it wants you to look at.

And that's usually the one we work with. And process is about people not trusting their own sense of self. And they don't have that stability within themselves. And what they tend to do is they tend to use language like I should have done this, I could have done this. I wish I had done this, maybe I could do this. So they spend a lot of time with their energy getting drained upon what they could or should have done rather than being in the present moment and trusting their own judgment. And usually can pick up on how that feels as well pretty quickly with people. They tend to be a bit more people pleasing as well. So they tend to ask people, what do you think of this before they do it?

They want that. So what possibly could happen and the reason I brought this up as well, once we've done your A, the E might show up. And that's actually your set. Yeah, yeah. So usually the first one is kind of a surface and then the next process is usually the process that actually represents you know, what's going on. It's like an onion, you're de-layering, you know? So how do you have crippling procrastination issues that sounds like that? Well, your procrastination could be from the A and the E.

So A tend to procrastinate because they're fearful of failing. E tend to procrastinate because they don't know themselves well enough to know what's right for them or not. And when I say what's right for them, they believe that there's good decisions and bad decisions. They believe something's right or wrong. So they get very fearful to make a decision. You know, like the movie Sliding Doors, that's kind of their life where they're like,

if I miss the train, it could mean this, or if I get on the train, it could mean this. And they get very concerned about life going one way or the other based upon a decision. Yeah, yeah. A lot of like morality, like... Yeah, fairness, justice, you know, um, yeah, and just believing like everything. But again, it's this, I guess, misunderstanding that if you have faith that things go the way that they're supposed to go, and that you have, you know, the ability to engage within yourself to where you know what feels appropriate for you, then that's all there is.

There's a Chinese proverb around whether something's good or bad. I don't know if you've heard that story before, but basically there's this, I'll tell it terribly, so please don't write into the podcast, but basically there's this man, he lives on a farm and he has a son, and the son pulls

off a horse and breaks his legs. And everyone from the village comes and they're like, oh, we're so sorry about your son. That's so bad that he fell off the horse and broke his legs. And the man goes, maybe, maybe not. A week later, all the men get called to go to war, all the healthy men in the village and his son doesn't have to go. So what could be considered bad might actually be considered good. So we tend to label things in our Western mind in an attempt to control, but you will never really know whether something is good or bad until hindsight occurs.

So once you've experienced that enough, you can have this faith that, you know, even if something is bad and you know, I've gone through a lot of stuff in my life that could be really turned as bad, eventually can be something that's exceptionally good. That's led you somewhere. Exactly. So that's the main thing I tell process ease. But again, they know this rationally and logically very intelligent people, it's about embodying it and getting the body to realize that too and it feels very different. Okay, what is the other one?

So the next common one is process. We'll go into, which one can I explain a little bit easier? Maybe process C. So process C is considered the heart space, all right? And the curvature in the upper back actually is representation of what that person is storing in their heart or how they're, I guess, working with other people in their life, relationships, anything to do with love, whether family, friendships, work, relationships, whatever.

And if there's an increased kyphosis, that's your upper back curve, that usually means that there's a hypervigilance. So there's a hypervigilance to anxiously connect to people. There's a hypervigilance to need people. They're not at peace unless they're grasping for that love or that attachment from people, almost similar to an attachment theory kind of notion. Then other times there's a flattening. So there should be a nice little curve going on there. If there's a flattening, then that's usually a disconnection, but they're both defensive mechanisms from the heart. One's just either in excess or one's kind of in deficiency. So for example, if I was to walk in today and I walked in like this, like,

hi, Kaggy, how are you going? What does that tell you about me? It feels shy and keeping myself small. Yeah. Doing, doing something. There's a, what we read off someone's curvature. Exactly, so what we read off someone's curvature is actually how they function in the world.

And we're talking about curves in the spine that are actual functional curves, not, you know, like scoliosis or something like that. We're talking about functional curves that can change. And so when we look at an increased curvature in the upper back, that represents an increased need to connect to others in the heart. So then they're more you're anxiously attached kind of style person where they're always needing someone, they're always wanting someone

to feel safe. And then you have a decreased curvature in the upper back, which is also a flattening almost, where there's a disconnection as well. And that's more so that they're scared to invest in terms of relationships with people. So they're more disconnected, more avoidant. So you can kind of relate attachment styles to this, but they're all essentially the same thing. They're all essentially the heart not functioning in balance or optimally. And so we work with the energetic center of the heart. So first we access the spine through the thoracic, through the upper back where we feel either a fixation or tension pattern. We then access the connection part of that through the thoracic, through the upper back where we feel either a fixation or tension pattern, we then access

the connection part of that through the field, which is dealing with the root causation. And then we bring it into the energetic centers, which is the energetic center of the chakra, or, or what's relevant to that part of the spine and the energetic field. So that's kind of the premise behind it. It's much more specific and intricate as a modality than the maybe what people think when looking at it. Yeah. The next thing that I really, really wanted to ask you about and how, how these two

things interlink, whether they're one of the same, because of an experience that I had, completely blew my mind. And that was a Kundalini activation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I had like an involuntary one in that I didn't know what was happening. I was about to ask you whether it was involuntary or not. Yeah. And I haven't spoken about it before because I realize it makes me sound quite mad.

Certain people that I have spoken to about it, they didn't understand it. And then eventually I was led to Kundalini and this kind of root chakra spot. Yeah. And so when I heard about you and your work, I was like, okay, this is kind of the same because physically what I was experiencing, even though I didn't have anyone that was activating it, was my whole body was moving and convulsing and like tremors and then like hands being activated. And I thought I would just have the mental experience, but it was so overwhelmingly physical. I don't want to say it scared me, but it was... You lost control.

And it was just shattering in terms of everything that I thought I knew just sort of disappeared because... Well everything becomes nothing and everything at the same time. Yeah. And that's essentially what people feel on the table. So how are these two sort of connected? Are they one of the same or? They're one of the same in a certain way.

I'm going to be able to explain completely in a week. Yeah, I'll talk about the differences. So for example, we're still at cyber and what you're actually doing is you're changing your state of consciousness. With spinal energetics, we're essentially changing your state of consciousness. So that's why you have a similar possible experience. What's possible in another realm, or is not necessarily possible in the 3D realm. It's like when you're

asleep, how when you're dreaming, you can fly, but then when you're awake, you can't. So when you see people in my sessions, their eyes are rapidly moving. And the reason they're moving is because the state of consciousness is changing to almost the state that when they're asleep. So what's possible when you're asleep,

but you're awake is very different. Another thing is when you're asleep, you are actually healing predominantly. So we're putting you in that same state where your body repairs and heals, but while you're asleep, you are actually healing predominantly. So we're putting you in that same state where your body repairs and heals, but while you're awake. So that's essentially our premise. Um, we're, we talk about the innate intelligence a little bit more rather

than Kundalini. And the reason we do that is just because, you know, in the West, there's still a, a pre-misconsception around Kundalini that it could be dangerous or it could be this, or it could be that. And I'm not suggesting either. Um, but it was a way that we could, yeah, it was a way that we could get people to access the work more. Same energy.

I believe it's Kundalini, Prana, Chi. What we're referring to is life force. And that's, I believe the energy that we're working with. So if we were to do a spinal energetic session on a dead person, nothing's going to occur because they've got no life force, they've got no energy. And so that's essentially what we are working with. And in a spontaneous Kundalini awakening, your body is actually connected to that state of consciousness and that energetic field to create involuntary movements.

And not involuntary movements just deemed to your physical body, but they're movements that are in relation to your spirituality as who you are as a person. And just like you said, what matters to you before and what matters to you after are very, very different. You almost start to see the world from a completely different lens. The way you interact with the world is completely different. And it's very similar to a session, say with spinal. Now with Kundalini activation, the way they work and access it is just different.

So they access it predominantly through the energetic centers. Whereas we're accessing it through a bit of the physicality through the spine, as well as the energetic centers. Whereas we're accessing it through a bit of the physicality through the spine, as well as the energetic centers. So we're kind of a bridge in the middle. So we're not purely esoteric, but we definitely touch on those aspects. And we're not purely physical like a chiropractor where we just touch the physical body.

So we're kind of a bridge essentially between both West and East. And we're kind of that middle road, we call it. And what about when it happens involuntarily? Yeah. And you don't have anyone holding it? So I don't believe it's bad. Yeah.

I believe that the body has an intelligence. So if it's, if it's- It's going where it needs to. It's going where it needs to go, but it can be very destabilizing for the person that's experiencing it. And when I say destabilizing, I mean that there's a sense of out of control.

They can't control what's happening in their body. They can't control what they're feeling. They can't control the sensations, the movements. They don't know what it represents. And the Western mind wants to make sense of it. It wants to rationalize it. It wants to understand why something's happening. What does it mean?

Whereas, you know, in Eastern culture, when this happens, no one questions it. It's considered, you know, a gift to actually have that. Yeah. So it's, it's just a different way that we're kind of educated and also socially, I guess, brought up, so to speak. But my suggestion would be to find a practitioner, whether it's a psychotherapist or someone who kind of understands the spiritual components of say, something like a spiritual emergency and all those kind of notions to assist you so that they can give you, I guess, just some insight into what's

possibly occurring. I've heard a lot that it is a gift. How wise is it again? Look, there's some sacred ailments that I believe are gifts. I believe something like epilepsy is a gift. So I was an epileptic as a child. And epilepsy is a gift because it's one of the most sacred, sacred diseases that you can have or ailment or whatever you want to call it. I don't even really suggest that it's anything like that.

But basically the physiology of epilepsy is too much electricity or too much energy in the brain that it doesn't know what to do. So it creates a seizure like activity. And when you look at people on the table, what does it look like they're doing? It looks like they're having a seizure. It's actually a very spiritual experience. Epilepsy can actually be a very spiritual thing. When you look at the understanding of it from an Eastern lens, I spent some time in the Philippines and there's a technique called inner dance that also works with Kundalini.

He said to me that you had your first awakening when you were very young and you gave me the age and the age was the same year that I was diagnosed with epilepsy. And then he spoke to me about why they believe even in Filipino culture, that epilepsy is actually a sacred experience. I also believe scoliosis is. So scoliosis is mainly found in women

and usually adolescent women. And it's being deemed because of the hormones and puberty that they're going through that their spine just sometimes you know makes a mistake and curves. But what I believe is actually occurring is they're almost having their energy suppressed with nowhere to go as becoming a woman in society. They're getting repressed and so the energy has nowhere to move so therefore it actually has to curve physically. So that's something that I see with very sensitive and spiritual people is usually a scoliosis,

it's not uncommon to see that in my practice, whereas maybe in some other practices they don't see it quite as often. But people who are drawn to this kind of work tend to, that's not an uncommon thing to experience. So a lot of these things that we've deemed as bad again, or deemed as, you know, something that we need to fix, occasionally do have, you know, if you go to a different culture, are considered a gift. And again, that's perception. And that's also why someone who gets told that they have this, for lack of a better word, over in a different place, will have a very different experience. It may not be as challenging for them because they believe that it's something good.

Whereas somewhere here where it needs to be treated and you need to go on medication or you need to have this and it's considered very diagnostic without the spiritual component even being touched on. And that's just a lack of awareness between, that's why we do value the West and the East and not saying that no one should be on medication or anything like that.

But if we work together- The power of perception in terms of shifting your approach and your feelings about yourself or something you might be struggling with. Correct, could be very different. For anyone that might be listening that is struggling with any of these things, what would you suggest that they do if this is all like totally foreign and completely sounds, you know, this is all totally foreign and completely sounds, you know, yeah, you start to then. Yeah. Look, I think looking either at spinal energetics, which is, um, you know, obviously the modality that can,

it doesn't necessarily help you understand it rationally and logically. Like we don't say things to you that necessarily make it make sense, but your body, when it experiences the work has a stability and a safety to it where it's able to make sense of it. And therefore your physiology changes and the way your perception around it changes. Then there's also other modalities like Kundalini activation or, or in a dance where they also work with, you know, um, creating a safe container for these kinds of modalities where the person feels like they have someone guiding them.

And it's essentially, we're not doing anything. We're not, you know, it's, it's, but it's like going to the gym and having a personal trainer as opposed to going to the gym and going yourself. Um, so you just have someone there to assist and you can do it yourself. You definitely can. Um, so especially after spinal sessions, hopefully after today, you will notice as well, um, is that the movements actually become spontaneous. Uh, so you, I won't even be in the room with you and these movements will start occurring. Now, why is that?

When people experience it on the table, whether it's their first time or they've had a Kundalini awakening as well, there's a remembering of something. So it feels very novel, very new, but at the same time feels such, yeah, ancient and familiar, where I believe that this has been within us.

It's always within us. We're just accessing it in a way I think we've forgotten over time and that's why I think it's such a beautiful experience for people, because it's like they've just remembered who they are. And it's just awoken their life force energy. It's after I have this experience for a few days after I was still having that spontaneous movement, not to the extent nearly, but just kind of coming through as these waves and then it stops. Yeah, that's what we expect. So our window is usually around 72 hours, but it can continue to happen. And we actually look at that as a positive yet

again, because what it means is that you're not reliant upon a practitioner, that your own body's wisdom is actually moving and integrating for you rather than you thinking that I'm special or that I've fixed you or there was something wrong with you and you came to me. It's very empowering for the individual to realise that the power was always within them. You know, it's like that Wizard of Oz quote, like the power was always within her from the start. And it's just really the reminder of that, can be so exceptionally life-changing for people. I think that's a beautiful note to end on and I'm now so excited to have the session.

Yeah is there anything else you'd like to add as a kind of final note for our listeners? Look I think your listeners are open-minded and already curious about this kind of thing but if you haven't experienced it yet then I suggest going out and experiencing it. We've got over 50, around 50 practitioners here in London who do spinal. So you have people to choose from if you are interested in it. And, you know, our practitioners are all hand taught by me still to this day, because I'm, you know, I want to keep the integrity of the work, but I just suggest give it a go and see how you find it and just be open to it. And you know, life's very interesting. Life's challenging for a lot of people.

I don't think it's necessarily an easy life. And if you're looking to Buddhism, we're not necessarily meant to be happy all the time. And we're meant to ebb and flow and, you know, experience up and downs. And this is really just a tool to really know who you are and what you are and what you want from life what do you what does it mean to you and if you have that in the back of your mind all of the time it's so much i don't know i don't want to say easier but you know it's important navigation yeah your internal compass just becomes a lot clearer. And I think when you have that relationship with yourself and with something bigger than you, then life just,

it just appears different. Yeah. Thank you so much. I love this. This is fascinating. So much what you said deeply resonated in my notes, and it's going to really help people listening, but also kind of lead them to a whole different modality that they might not have heard of before. So, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for allowing me to come in and for getting the word out there. You know, that's my passion,

is the reason I started training practitioners is so that everyone could have access to this work. So we're always really appreciative of anyone who's willing to help us get the word out there. So thank you. I hope you enjoyed this conversation. There were some fascinating moments that I just couldn't understand how she could see or know. And she's obviously got a lot of intuitive gifts.

So I really enjoy, I always enjoy these kind of explorations of finding different modalities and different people because I think it just helps us access these different parts of ourselves and healing, which is really, you know, quite pivotal to this show. So I hope you check out her work and Spinal Energetics and that it opens you up to a new way of thinking. And thank you so much for listening and as always remember you are not alone. Goodbye.