Sawbones: A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine - Angel's Glow

Episode Date: November 8, 2020

On a chilly, rainy Civil War battlefield in Tennessee, soldiers started noticing something strange: Some of their wounds had begun ... glowing. Stranger still: Those with the glow tended to fare better than their illuminated counterparts. The assumption? Angels were bringing them back from the brink.An incredible story.This week on Sawbones? You guessed it, Dr. Sydnee and her old buddy Science are gonna ruin the whole thing.Music: "Medicines" by The Taxpayers

Sawbones is a show about medical history, and nothing the hosts say should be taken as medical advice or opinion. It's for fun. Can't you just have fun for an hour and not try to diagnose your mystery boil? We think you've earned it. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy a moment of distraction from that weird growth. You're worth it. that weird growth. You're worth it. Alright, talk is about books. One, two, one, two, three, four. We came across a pharmacy with a toy and that's lost it out. We were sawed through the broken glass and had ourselves a look around.

Some medicines, some medicines that escalate my cop for the mouth. Wow, it went really well. Hello, everybody and welcome to Saul Bones. I'm here with two of Ms. Guy and Medicine. I'm your co-host Justin McElroy. for the mouth. Hello, everybody and welcome to Saul Bones, I'm Eric Tumor, Miss Guy and Medicine, I'm your co-host Justin McElroy. And I'm Sydney McElroy. Normally, let's take you inside the show for a little bit. Normally, Sydney researches the show Saul Bones, and we have the research for the done and ready to go

by like, Thursday, usually. I don't know if you listen if you could think back to what this past week was like. It was a lot. And we were trying to decode. It's like trying to get the vibe at a party that is in Bangladesh and you're at home and you're like, I absolutely no idea. Like what do you wear to that party? You have no idea. It's halfway across the globe. Well, and I mean, moreover,

I would say it's not even that. It was sort of like, it wasn't trying to guess the vibe of a party. It was like, you're going to an event. You don't know any details. Prepare. Prepare. So.

Prepare what people will want to hear. It could be anything, it could be a party It could be a funeral you don't know what the event is Prepare your general self for whatever this event is and just go up go to it Well, and how do you prepare for that and also beyond that? We as just as human beings we're not in a great place to come up with creative work to make. But.

I felt like we were kind of detached from the normal course of time, like kind of floating outside of time for a while. A little bit. Yeah. So what we decided, or what sort of, yeah, what we decided, what I sort of urge Sydney to do and I think that we we came to a good common ground is just to pick something completely unrelated

unrelated to anything happening in the world obviously recording this on Sunday things are looking up let's say but this is a regular solbons that's what we put out in the world. We put out in the world. We talked last time in the last episode about like, we wouldn't be nice if we just go back to classic saw bones. And I think, maybe subconsciously, that is what we decided to manifest. This will be the episode that we'll feel right

by the time we record. So here we are. And this is a story I had come across a while ago. And it's kind of, it's's shortish but I think we can I think we can fill a whole time time period with it. But it it's just an interesting little kind of medically adjacent medically sort of in the realm of medical history. It's definitely historical tale that I had come across and I thought was really interesting and maybe would interest our listeners and Really has almost nothing to do with anything else that's happening right now

So it's just that and listener a bit of medical history of femura for you to ingest listener to be coming just saying I do want to mention just a second ago I was taking a large pull off my water bottle normally I meet gonna meet myself. I was not taking a cheque and toe bomb rip Which people tend to think is happening? Which is not part of our recording version. Oh, we don't own a bong. We don't know Box 54 Bongs now singers send us all your bongs. We don't want bongs. We don't need bongs. No bongs. Thank you I just don't we just don't want bonds. We don't need bonds. No, bonds. Thank you. We explain that to our children. I just don't, we just don't need a bond.

So anyway, this... Do you have kids, bonds? No. So let's have it said... I'm a physician. I'm a father. I'm a father. I'm a father first.

I'm a father first. And a bond enthusiast second. Okay. We don't own any bonds. Anyway, I want to tell you this strange little story that is set during the Americans of war. Okay. Uh, which again, it's not supposed to be connected to anything.

No, no, that part is unintentional. No. Um, it's the story of angels glow, by the way. Mm-hmm. Have you ever heard the story? Sounds like a Jack Daniels variant. Do I understand that it's not what we're discussing? No, no, this is not some sort of whiskey or bourbon or anything. So during the American Civil War, there was a battle called the Battle of Shiloh, also called the Battle of Pittsburgh Landing, I guess depending on I

Don't know which where you're yeah, I don't know you get your Civil War history It was in April of 1862 it would it took place in Southwest Tennessee, so not Pittsburgh Oh, I can see what they changed landing also Shiloh well, I think I found it called both I had to read up on a little bit of Civil War history. Which Sydney really doesn't like, do you explain this to me? You mentioned this. You don't like reading about the Civil War.

I don't, okay, I have never been, I like history a lot. I took quite a few. I was one core short of a minor in history. So I do like history quite a bit. And I took some classes that focused on various wars throughout history. It's never, I don't like any war history. I find it all very sad, that's probably typical. Specifically though the Civil War, I always feel like when you read about,

especially like specific battles in the Civil War, there's like, they have to tell you like, I always feel like when you read about, especially these specific battles in the Civil War, there's like, they have to tell you, like, also by the way, most of the people in this battle weren't like soldiers in any conventional sense. They just signed up and were kind of sent out there. Like they didn't have training necessarily. And I just get, it just all becomes very sad. You know what I mean?

It just all gets so like, ugh, it's just sad. It's just hard. I mean all wars like that. All wars like that. But especially the Civil War about the war. Yeah, and it's set in a time where we had so little like medical technology and like ways to take care of people. So there's so much excess morbidity and mortality.

It's just it's a sad, all wars are sad. I don't like reading about them. But you have to know that this took place during a war for the story to make sense. So anyway, the Confederate Army surprised attack to the Union Army on April 6th of 1862. Now that is against the rules. As I, the war historians will'll tell you you're not supposed to really do that. Yeah. It's kind of agreed that you shouldn't surprise other people you should give them kind of a warning. If you ever seen the they call them whistleboys or five five floors like the whistleboys.

The whistleboys. If you ever see them tooting around that's to warn the enemy to like it's time to do war. Let's go or the drummers same idea I think I do understand like at this point in history There were there were a lot fewer just complete surprise It was a lot more like planned out like I see you over on that hill We're on this hill tomorrow. We shall meet yes People would like watch right like you would have like a viewing area

Yes. People would like watch, right? Like you would have like a viewing area. But, ladies with umbrellas or whatnot. I don't. Anyway. I don't know anything about war, I'm sorry. That will be incredibly apparent. I had to read the killer angels at one point.

Why would that? Yeah, I read that one. Yeah, I read the killer angels. Anyway. Okay, maybe I'm a little bit more of an expert than I thought. I should give myself more credit. I read the killer angels for fun. So the battle lasted? No, the battle lasted for two days.

Initially, the Confederate Army caught the Union by surprise and pushed them back up against the banks of the river. Then the Union Army got a bunch of support. Like a bunch of extra troops arrived and they pushed the Union back to the South. Both sides in the midst of all of this fighting over the course of two days suffered tremendous casualties. Between the two of them about 23,000 lives were lost in this battle. I know this is what I'm saying. This is like incredibly sad stuff. Many of the wounded were sort of left where they fell. It wasn't like you had really sophisticated support like medical systems that could rush in at

the end of every battle necessarily. And in this one in particular they just weren't available to come rescue wounded soldiers and get them to field hospitals right away. So many many of these young people laid in the field for a day or two, waiting for someone to come help them. And at night, in this muddy battlefield, I should say it was a muddy kind of swamp-like area where they were, it was rainy, it was cool, cool to cold, even I would say. Some of the soldiers noticed something odd about their wounds. At night, they seemed to faintly

glow. They glowed? Yes, some of the soldiers reportedly noted that their wounds glowed a pale bluish to a bluish greenish kind of color. That's weird. I didn't know that that was a thing that happened with these happy wounds. Not all the soldiers noticed it. Not everybody had this phenomenon occur, but once they were rescued and taken to the field hospitals, and of course, told the staff, the doctors, the nurses, everybody there about it, like, is this like a thing that my wound glow? It's a good thing. Did I not hear about this?

I'm pretty entrained. But like, one, they stopped glowing. And two, well, that was the alternative would be wilder. Can you help me stop this from glowing? The, they, they begin to notice a correlation between soldiers whose wounds glowed and how well they fared. Because again, this is the pre-anibiotic era.

So infection meant death for a lot of people, a wound of any kind, could get infected, no matter how minor and that could, that could unfortunately cost your life. But they began to notice that people who had these glowing wounds seem to fare better overall than their comrades who did not. That's wild.

Yes. Wild, wild little bit of history, little story. I have guessed it. I have guessed why we're calling it angels glow then. This is exactly why they called it. So that was what the soldiers came to refer to it in the doctors. They called it angels glow because it seemed to be that some sort of higher power allowed these soldiers to survive and do better than their fellow soldiers who

did not have this glow. So there you go. And the legend was handed down. Like as just this, there's, I mean I think there's a lot of that kind of oral history surrounding the Civil War and the American Civil War. I've noticed that. Like you hear those stories. Especially if you've ever had like a family member, I had family members who were like civil war history buffs and would tell you these strange little stories connected to the war. I'm sure I'm sure all wars have those,

but maybe because of, maybe because we live in a state that was formed out of the civil war, we hear a particular large amount of those stories. But anyway, this tale was handed down handed down and it was a strange, weird thing. Nobody really knew why or if it was true, like, I don't know. Does that sound? Who knows who knows?

Um, and that was all we knew about it. Like if you toured this battlefield, this is what they would tell you about it. What a weird thing to just leave there. Like, oh, and by the way, way, we should have told you this earlier. Sometimes the angels heal their wounds by making them low. But anyway, back to the, here's, don't forget to get a magnet.

Here's an old bullet. Can you believe this? I feel like that was always part of it. Here's some old, see these old bullets. See these old bullets. And that's all we knew about it until the year 2001. That's a long time to not know what the heck is going on. Yes, and I am going to tell you what happened in the year 2001, but first let's go to the billing department. Let's go.

For the Mouth Sending a lot of things happened in 2001 of course Yes, yes, then my regents min car been fold rock in the suburbs a lot of great albums some other worse things In 2001, but you're about to tell me about a completely unrelated event. Yes, in the year 2001 There's also the year I graduated from high school. So I was going to say that. 17 year old Bill Martin is the key figure in the story. You're pretty close to Bill. So it was just occurring to me that Bill and I

are likely the same age thereabouts. Anyway, Bill was a Civil War buff, I guess, young, young for a Civil War historian. What age do you think is good for a Civil War historian? You just don't think that is like a common teenage interest, you know. It's true. I bet Bill's a cool guy. Bill seems cool. He is cool because he's visiting.

Bill, what do you do this weekend? Bill is going to a Civil War battlefield with my mom. Bill is cool. I'll tell you who's cooler is his mom Phyllis. Sorry, but I think you're cool Well Phyllis happened to be a research microbiologist for the USDA so That's a lady I'm looking out with pretty cool That is she's got a cool son. You think I'm being sarcastic But if you know anything about me in this show

I'm not I think that's all what's the party with Phyllis. I do so Bill was visiting this battlefield And they heard this story this legend of the of angels glow from the Battle of Shiloh and You have to imagine that Phyllis had something to do with like the direction that this story takes because of her background In microbiology right like she had to have heard this and kind of I don't know the story yet. Well put this idea in Bill's head. Could this mysterious glow actually maybe just maybe not have been the result of some sort of supernatural force but the result of bacteria. Some bacteria have bioluminescence.

Right. I know this. What does that mean? It means it glows from being alive. Yeah, just things that naturally give off light. Glow. Yes, some bacteria do that. Phyllis knew this well because she happened to study among other bacteria.

I imagine she didn't just study one. She probably studied. Although that can get really specialized. Some microbiologists really just focus in on just the one or two. Yeah, but if you only focus on one bacteria, what do you do when it dies? Not one.

Ha. Ha. Ha. Clever. Phyllis studied a particular bioluminescent bacteria that she was familiar with, photo-rabbedus luminescence or p-luminescence, we'll call it. And this particular bacteria, p-luminescence, glowed sort of a pale-bluish color.

So it was suggested, do you think? I mean, you know, this was kind of Bill's idea to investigate it further, but you gotta imagine Phyllis had something to do with this. Do you think maybe that could have been what was on these wounds of these soldiers? And this is why they glowed. That doesn't answer all our questions,

but it's certainly possible, right? In order to prove that, first, you would have to prove that that bacteria could have been in that soil, right? Right. When order to prove that, first you would have to prove that that bacteria could have been in that soil, right? Right. Like, it's got to be there. Do we know that it exists there? So Bill decided to embark on this mystery, to solve this case, crack this case, with his

friend Jonathan Curtis. They set it up as like a science project. So you're telling me, 17 year old Bill Curtis, like a science project. So you're telling me 17 year role Bill Curtis Bill Martin excuse me you're telling me 17 year old Bill Martin on the weekends he's at the Civil War battlefield with his cool mom Phyllis during the week he's studying microbiology with his pal I'm gonna call him Jack Curtis Jonathan Jack to his friends like me I'm gonna call him Jack Curtis, Jonathan. Jack to his friends like me. And they're studying microbiology

self-simple war mysteries. This is the coolest 17 year old I have ever ever heard. That's what I'm saying. He's like Holmes and Watson cracking historical microbiology mysteries. Jonathan graces on Twitter. I'd love for him to get at us. I want to ask.

Well, you just combined Bill Martin. Well, what about Bill Martin? What? What? I made Bill Martin Jonathan Curtis, either one. Either one. Okay. Get at me. Ellis. So anyway, first they determined that this, this, this bacteria could in fact have been present in the soil at the time. Um, where the battle took place in 1862, they did this by establishing that there was a certain

nematode, there's a little worm. Yeah, gross. That was common in the soil in this part of the country. So the nematode is there. Well, what does that have to do with anything? Just because we know a nematode is there, why do we know the bacteria is there? This information that I'm going to give you about this bacteria, P. luminescence and the nematode, is stuff that really only a scientist could love, I think.

I'll just share it with the law for a bit. The bacteria lives inside these nematodes, okay? They're nematodes from a family, a certain family of nematodes, hetero-rabbitus family. And these worms are actually interestingly enough, you can like buy them to put in your garden and your crops, they're used for pest control,

very commonly. Kind of interesting. I was googling to like learn more about these nematodes and I came across all these like, here's where you can buy some. I was like, why don't you go, do they glow? No, they don't glow, I'm gonna get to that, but it was like, it was funny, because I was like, well, I don't wanna buy any, why would I wanna buy? Oh, okay, that's why I wanna buy some. I don't want to. Do they glow? No, they don't glow. I'm going to get to that.

But it was funny because I was like, I don't want to buy any. Why would I want to buy? Oh, okay. That's why I want to buy any. I digress. The little worms are parasites. These nematodes. And the nematodes will get inside the larvae of an insect.

Okay. So you've got the larvae from an insect. These tiny little nematodes will burrow inside it, and once they're inside the larva, the nematode will regurgitate the p-luminessence that lives in its gut. So it pukes up all this bacteria inside the larva. Oh, my goodness. Okay, and once the bacteria are out there, they can release toxins that will kill the larva. Oh my goodness. Okay. And once the bacteria are out there, they can release toxins that will kill the larva.

Nice. Cool. The stuff that the bacteria release, that the pyluminousin releases inside the larva, includes a couple different things. There's just substance that kills the larva, okay? Which by the way, they've decoded like the genes that create like that are responsible for making

that encode the sequence for this toxic substance. And it's the MCF gene, which stands for makes caterpillars floppy. Sorry, I just really enjoy that. You guys have a caterpillar floppy gene. You guys are too much. Makes a toxic substance. Anyway, also some enzymes that will break down the larva, the bacteria release that as

well so it can be digested from the inside out. I know. It's a brutal world out there. Yeah, that's right. Microbiology. And then also, one other thing that the P. luminescence bacteria release is an antibiotic substance that will kill other microorganisms around it. We're getting closer to the answer to this.

I sense that. Yeah. To cracking this case. So the need of the trail, I can feel us nipping at the yields in this mystery. I've almost got it myself, but I don't want to rob you of the joy of the big reveal. The nematode will continue to live inside this hollowed out larva that it has now killed and used enzymes to begin to digest until basically there's nothing left to eat. Basically it has destroyed it for the inside out.

I really hate rats. Obviously my smart inch of me is working. I'm realizing that I don't do great with like burrowing. Like burrowing. When we get into burrowing, pretty much any sort, I don't need Jillian. When you're talking about hug words and stuff, I don't like it. I don't like the burrowing. Burrowing is rough. Burrowing is tough, since I don't like it. I don't like the burrowing. Burrowing is rough.

Burrowing is tough, since I don't like it. We tend to think of our skin, and this doesn't really apply to this specific situation, because the nematodes are burrowing into larvae, not humans. But we tend to think of our skin as this impenetrable barrier, and it's super not impenetrable. Yeah, it's not impenetrable. I mean, it's pretty good though, but it's not. It's good as far as skin goes. Anyway, so these nematodes live inside these hollowed out larvae until there's nothing left to eat. Yeah, you actually don't need to keep saying it.

You did cover it. And then the bacteria, and while they're doing that, by the way, the bacteria are still outside the nematode. Like, it's pukeed up all this bacteria, and it's just there hanging out with it. Like, it's little buddy, it's little p-luminous and spuddy and as the p-luminousness is hanging out, it's multiplying and this is what bacteria do. They just keep multiplying. And as it's multiplying, it's glowing, right? And as there's more and more of it, it glows more and more. Why would it glow? Our best guess is to why would this bacteria, why would evolution have selected for this? Well insects tend to be attracted to light sources.

So eventually there's not going to be anything left of this larva to eat and you're going to need new insects to burrow inside and eat from the inside out. So the p-luminousin attracts new insects to that area to provide the nematode with its next victim. Oh, kind of all runway lights for murderers. Mm-hmm. And that interesting. So once the nematode has a new victim and has eaten all it can from its current victim, it will actually eat all that p-luminousin bacteria back up. It's like now get back inside me. Get in my belly. Get in my belly, if you will, because it needs, it's going to take it along with it as

it travels on to the next thing, it will infect. Like the cat buzz. It's not a tarot. It's not a bad thing. It's taking it along for the ride so that it can, it's a symbiotic relationship. So anyway, and then it will go on and infect a new larva and puke up the pylumin essence all over again and so on and so forth. Okay. So if you prove this nematotis in this soil, it could certainly, then certainly this pylumin essence

would have been in the soil as well and could have gotten in these wounds. Now, one issue that was immediately apparent with this whole theory that Bill and John have come up with, with Phyllis's tutelage, is that the nematode lives at cooler temperatures, typically. So it would be very strange to imagine that the worms would have tried to inhabit a 98.6 degree or there about human body, right?

That's not the right temperature for these nematodes. So, you start to go, well, like, yeah, I mean, how would the bacteria have gotten there? Because the nematodes would never have come to these wounds to begin with. Well, what they had to do next was investigate the weather conditions on this battlefield in April of 1862. And what they found is those pretty chilly, so cold and rainy and muddy were these poor soldiers that it is perfectly possible that hypothermia could have been induced in these in some of these soldiers some are all of these men waiting on the battlefield and also their wounds were probably open which

means that they were not necessarily as warm right so because of that, it is conceivable that if there are like bugs in the wounds, sorry, but insects in the wounds, that the nematodes would have been then attracted to these bugs in larvae. Uh-huh. And it would have been cool enough because of the hypothermia induced by the weather conditions for them to get inside these wounds, puke up their p-luminousins, and the wounds would glow blue. Does that make them get better?

Well, that's the last question. If this is indeed what happened, does it help explain why there seemed to be a correlation between a glowing wound and a patient that got better faster or got better at all? The chemical that I mentioned, the antibiotic chemical, which I don't know if you wanna know the name of this, 3, 5 dihydroxy4 isopropyl transdylene. Yes, that's what I was actually thinking.

Kills surrounding microbes. hydroxy-4 isopropyl transdylene. That's what I was actually thinking. Kill surrounding microbes. So when the bacteria was puked up and it released its substances into the wound, it is possible that it killed other pathogens that may have been around at other bacteria that could have caused infection, thereby preventing infection in the wounds of these soldiers, which is could be why they seemed to fare better in the hospital than soldiers who didn't. And why did they stop glowing when they got to the hospital? Well, very simply, they were probably washed, right? Yeah. Like one of the first things you would have done is washed the wound out. Yeah.

So you would have cleaned all this stuff out of there. Plus it was warmer. The hypothermia would have been resolved. That would have killed them off too out of there. Plus it was warmer, the hypothermia would have been resolved. That would have killed them off too. So between washing wounds out and then bringing the body back up to a normal temperature, you wouldn't have seen the glowing anymore. So that could have, that could have, instead of an angel that caused these soldiers, if this is all true, to get better, it was a bacterial still benoit released by photo-rabbed us luminescence after it was regurgitated from the gut of an intomopathogenic nematode

of the family. Hedero rabbed it today. Rabbed it today. Or it was an angel. Or it was the thing I just said. Or it was the angel. Is your certain? I mean, my heart tells me it's true. I kind of think that the idea that these conditions were just right for this parasitic nematode to infect these wounds. Well, I'd say infection, same fact, just kind of like live in, just inhabit these wounds. And release this bacteria that released an antibiotic, which may have prevented infection and saved some of these soldiers' lives, and that they just also happened to glow.

I think that for me, personally just for me for this little audience of one, is more awe-inspiring at the end of the day than the idea that a supernatural force or a higher power did it. Or Roman Downey and Michael Landon walked around the battlefield and kissed all the good news. One of the two definitely, definitely.

I'm just saying, I think it's really fascinating and awe-inspiring. And as a result of their study, Bill and Jonathan won first place at the 2001 Intel International Science and Engineering Fair. That's cool, Sid. That's usually the part where you would have been like, and 60 years later, they died.

So I'm glad that we're just catching up with them now where they won the science fair. That's great. They're like my age. I hope they're both doing fine I hope they have gone on to solve more historical microbiological mysteries. We need them now Never prove the power of science science miracles that work, but and I mean I should say and I think Bill and John and and Phyllis would all echo this. We can't conclusively prove this, right?

We don't have like some sort of tissue sample or something that proves this. It has been called into question as to like, where did this legend even come from? Was there this correlation? Is this really true? Because like I said, when you're getting into some of these stories that were handed down through oral tradition, you know, like, right, it's not you have. Do we have definitive proof? So when you're when you're talking about like, from a story perspective, I think it's fine, but if you're if you want the hard science, I don't think we can definitively say that this is what happened. So it's

coming up. But fun party science for kicks. On popular science, I believe is what you call this. I think populace. Yeah, I mean, either way, I guess it just goes to the bill Martin was at a party. I mean, I've been saying it from the beginning, this guy's doing party science, are you kidding me? It's totally reasonable.

I mean, like everything that it all fits, it makes sense and it's completely feasible that this really did happen. They really did see this glow and that the soldiers who had the glow really did seem to get better. And certainly at the time, you would have had no way of explaining this,

like the scientist, doctor, soldiers, nobody involved would have had any clue why this could have happened. And so to guess that it may have been an angel, you know, would have been a reasonable guess for them to make. But anyway, I think it is a fascinating little story from medical history. And I applaud Bill and Don and Phyllis for taking something. I mean, imagine how many people had visited that battlefield and probably like heard this story and gone, huh, that's cool. Weird. They glowed. Huh? Can I see the bullet again? Got that's old.

We talk about this. This is an old round bullet. We talk about this a lot on the show that it's important to follow the facts where they lead us no matter what that where that is. Like if you like science is about empiric evidence and about, you know, finding truth. But before you can go on that quest, you have to ask questions and to ask questions means having an open mind, means having the imagination and the creativity to say like, well, maybe there's a reason for that that we just don't know yet. And maybe I could help us figure out what that truth is. And that's what Bill and John and Phyllis did. They said, I bet there's a truth here. We just don't know yet. And then they use science to find what, you know, is our best guess of what it is. So maybe your best guess with angels. Thanks so much for listening to our program. So I hope you

enjoyed yourself. We got a new piece of merchandise over at McElroyMarch.com. Sydney, if you want to support the great work being done by the immunization action coalition. We got a new piece of merchandise over at McElroy Merch.com. Sydney, if you want to support the great work being done by the immunization action coalition, we got a new ProVax bumper sticker. Share your support for the incredible power of vaccines is finally legally again to like science. Vaccines, safety, effectiveness, 1796, what it says, you're gonna macroomemercher.com and stock up on vaccines and spread the word that they are choice.

Yes, and if you haven't gotten your flu shot yet, please do, please do so. So right now, thank you to the taxpayers for the use of their song Medicines as the intro and outro of our program. Thanks to the Max Fun Network for having us on as a part of their extended podcasting family. And thanks to you for listening to this program.

We will be with you again very soon, but until next time, my name is Justin McRoy. I'm Sydney McRoy. As always, don't drill a hole in your head. Alright! comedy and culture. Artist-owned? Audience-supported.