Sawbones: A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine - Sawbones: Anthroposophy

Episode Date: October 25, 2022

Why not just connect the spiritual and scientific world? That's basically what anthroposophy asks, teaching a philosophical approach to medicine. Dr. Sydnee and Justin talk about the history of this movement and also try to explain what exactly it is.Music: "Medicines" by The Taxpayers https://taxpayers.bandcamp.com/

Sawbones is a show about medical history, and nothing the hosts say should be taken as medical advice or opinion. It's for fun. Can't you just have fun for an hour and not try to diagnose your mystery boil? We think you've earned it. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy a moment of distraction from that weird growth. You're worth it. that weird growth. You're worth it. Alright, talk is about books. One, two, one, of misguided medicine. for the mouth. Wow. Hello everybody, and welcome to Saul Bugs, a Marital Tour of Miscite and Medicine.

I'm your co-host, Justin McRoy. And I'm Sydney McRoy. And I'm so excited to be here with you, my wife, best friend. Thank you, man. Talk about another chapter of medical history. Yes. I am going to have to take several runs on the name of this episode because while

I have practiced saying it repeatedly for some reason, this is a word that my brain cannot hold on. Sometimes there's a word you know how to pronounce, but then every time you go to pronounce it, it just gets mushy in there. When I was a kid, until I was about 15, I couldn't reliably say, mischief and always come out as misfish. I didn't have to say the word mischief a lot. If you think about it, you probably haven't said it much.

Honestly, me telling this story is the most I've said it in a few years. But... Mischief. Mischief. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. I'm back.

You've lost it again. I'm back. Look at the, can you see the title of my notes? Do you see the title? Um... How would you say that? See, because every time I look at it, I have to say it of my notes? Do you see the title? How would you say that? See, because every time I look at it, I have to say it in my head three times before I say that. Let me see what wild way you've decided to share documents with me currently.

I just shared it with you on Google Drive. Anthroposophy. Anthroposophy. Yeah, that's it. Oh man, I don't have my... Anthroposophy. Anthroposophy. Anthroposophy. Anthroposophy.

Yeah. I might- I want a- I want a- I want a- I want a- I want a- I want a- I want a-

I want a- I want a- I want a- I want a- I want a- I want a- I want a- I want a- I want a- I want a- I want a- I want a-

I want a- I want a- I want a- I want a- I want a- I want a- I want a- I want a- I want a- I want a- I want a- I want a- I want a- I want a- No, anthroposophie. That's what I've almost said several times. I'm like, no, that's nothing. That's nothing. That's not what it is. For some reason, it's just not. I'm gonna work on it though, because I have to say it a few times in this episode.

Thank you, Hannah, for both blessing and cursing me with this topic. Because it's very interesting, even if it's hard to say, I've never heard this word before. I receive this email about it. It feels like it's not the hardware place, right? Or the close. Anthropology?

Yes. No, it is not anthropology. I was saying a restoration hardware, not anthropology, because I always see the, that's how I know that I'm in a fancy city. If I go to their mall and I like, oh, anthropology and restoration hardware. Look at me, look at, look my look my made it. I don't know what

either of them do. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I wouldn't have been so. It's far away from our mall where we have that one store that has all those t-shirts out front with guns on them. I don't know what they sell there other than t-shirts. You just have a great shot called Excalibur. That was all. Oh man. Excalibur was all swords and glass figurines. It was amazing. And sometimes things made out of metal, like hammered metal.

Dragons. It was a cool store. It was scary though. You walk in. It was one of those stores where I would walk in and hold my hands together. But yeah, did it count? And make myself real small just so I don't bump into anything, but really pretty.

God, I'm glad we don't have that story anymore. Can you imagine how much A are kids would want to go in there and B would break everything? They would break everything. They would break everything. They would break everything. So I want to say like, I'm going to talk a lot about this. Okay, what anthropocopathy is and how it relates to medicines. This is a wide-ranging concept,

like philosophical understanding of the world, it's like a whole system of understanding. It is a, it is a useful word that we're reclaiming, a holistic approach to education. To everything. To the way we think, to the way we treat each other, to the way we are social movements, to science, to politics, to government, to education, to medicine. And that's the thing we'll focus in on is anthroposophical medicine,

because that is one branch of it. But I just want to start off with, since I'm going to be talking about how the medicine is considered pseudoscientific and not based on an actual like evidence-based understanding of diagnosis and treatment. Presumptuous considering the episode has just started, Sidney, let's wait to find out. Well, it's not, but I mean, it's just not.

And I feel like it's important to preface with that. I'm going to talk you through the different ideas about it, but like it's not. I don with that. I'm gonna talk you through the different ideas about it, but like it's not. I don't have a problem with people who sit around and think and talk about this stuff. Like I think it's interesting. I used to do it a lot before we had children. You mean like philosophers? Yeah, but this is beyond just philosophy.

Like obviously it's philosophy, but it's like a applied philosophy, right? Nothing's bigger than philosophy. It's a philosophy. Philosophy is the superstructure under which all other constructs exist. But like this is beyond just like putting that like talking about that construct. It's like how can I apply that to specific areas of actual life? You're saying it's applied.

It's applied philosophy. It's applied philosophy. It's's applied. It's applied philosophy. Applied philosophy. So that's what you're doing with this. It's not just about like, because like in college, we all would like sit around and talk about this stuff, right? But like we didn't do anything with any of that.

No, you just thought about it and drink about it. Yes, and then moved on and felt really smart for like five minutes. I love that. So you grow up and you're like, wait, no, that was anything. Oh, no. And that's certainly not always, but in many ways, how we move things forward, right?

We sit and we think and we talk and we think and we think and we think and we think, and all of a sudden, we start seeing things differently, especially if you're effective at communicating and spreading those ideas. So I don't have any problem with any of that. The problem wise, when you get that sort of like new world view and you decide that you can apply it to everything, including something like medicine

or healthcare. Like, oh, well, I'm just going to completely without any medical expertise whatsoever, revamp medicine because I thought about it enough and it's different now. That doesn't work as well. So I want to talk about Rudolph Steiner. If you've heard this name at all, which a lot of people aren't as familiar with Rudolph, I wasn't Rudolph Steiner, it is probably because you are familiar with or attended perhaps a Waldorf school.

I know. Do you know anything about Waldorf school? No, is it, unless the old honeydden high or the new honeydden anything about Waldorf school school? No. Is it, is unless the old Huntington High or the new Huntington High or Waldorf School? They are not. Those are the two that I went to. So. The map that I saw showed no Waldorf schools in West Virginia. That is shocking.

We don't have any jack in the boxes. We don't have any restoration hardware. And now this, they're, They're pretty elite private schools. Like, private schools in Anthropologists. They, there is tuition involved, obviously. These are not public schools, these are private schools, at least in this country. Now, I don't know, there are a lot more of them

when you go overseas in like Germany, specifically. There are tons of them. And so I don't know if maybe there's a different, obviously, the US has decided that you have to pay for anything that is a basic necessity, including education and healthcare and all that. So it might be different if you go outside of this country, but at least in the US, it's a pretty, it's pretty posh.

Like, if you're going to go there, you've got to have some money. I think there are probably scholarships. Most of these places happen, but generally speaking, it's going to be something that more like wealthy. And especially if you're more left leaning is usually the association more liberal, somewhat artsy or in tune with like all of the other parts of education, like dance, music, art, things that are great. I support all this. We should all our kids should have access to this.

But like all of that is incorporated into it. And then there's extra stuff that I don't know that everybody would know about. Like you hear Waldorf school and you think, oh, Tony, private school. But it's more than that. It's an entirely like unique system of education. It's mainly in like sort of the New England area

and then out on the West Coast. There are ones throughout the South and other parts of the country, obviously none in West Virginia. You're, you're, okay, Sydney, as your husband and your coast, you're working really admirably hard to not be classist right now with your language. And I want to say I celebrate you and I support you. Literally everyone that can hear your voice right now knows exactly what you're talking about.

No question picked about a lot of a thousand people. We know exactly the human being talking about. No question could pick them out of a lot of of a thousand people. We know exactly the human being that is going to this. A lot of, there are a lot of like, they have a lot of alumni that are famous. So you can look up lists if you feel someone inclined. I don't want to call people out for going to a fancy school. Anywhere that I would call somebody out for not going to a fancy school. And it doesn't matter if you were say on a break or not on a break, anytime you went to this school.

So what is Anthroposophy? Because that's what Anthroposophy, that is what this like educational philosophy at the Waldorf schools is built upon and then this medicine, medicinal medical. Now it's, It's a scientific medical theory. It's a scientific medical theory. It is a view of human nature that they call it like a spiritual science. So the idea is like, okay,

I can perceive that, I can perceive this thing, I can perceive you with my eyes because of sight. Like I see you, my eyes are seeing you, I'm perceiving you, I can perceive this coffee I'm drinking through my taste. The idea is like we are thinking about things is another perception.

You can perceive ideas and the spiritual world and human potential through thinking. Thinking is another sense. It is, I mean, it's like a scientific approach to the spiritual world. Okay. And it has to do with sort of expanding what we can sense and observe as humans. Okay. Like unlimited potential of sensation and observation into the spiritual realm. So this is using a scientific sort of approach. You are describing ESP, right? Like, that's what you

mean, right? It's extra-sense-word perception. You're receiving things that you could not with your five senses, six-year-re-spider-man. Yes, yes. It is a way of- Six-year-if you're the kid from science. It is a way of connecting.

I'm sorry, I said the kid from science. I can't believe this, but it's a movie that's a six-year-old tornado. You know what I mean? I know what you mean. It is a way of connecting the scientific and spiritual world. It's like, let's just fuse it all together and say, you know, we don't have to, like, belief is part of it, but through that belief, you are, you're actually experiencing this bit of spiritual world.

Yes. Your thoughts have an impact. Your thoughts are not mere neurons firing. Yes, like we have a power that emanates from us that is stronger than just the physical. Okay. Or the observable with the naked eye. That kind of thing. Does that make sense?

Yeah, it's kind of interesting. Rudolph Steiner was from Austria. I lived from 1861 and 1925. He was one who developed the field. He was a real Renaissance sort of guy. Had an interest in art, music, dance, theater, social activism, architecture, like he designed buildings. He was an occultist. He like saw a ghost once when he was young and felt that he was clairvoyant. He felt that clairvoyance

is part of this, this again, perception of the world that is beyond what we think we can perceive. He did get a doctorate in philosophy, so yes, obviously philosophy is part of this, but he studied sort of everything and did a lot of writing and editing and lecturing, which I guess is what you do if you're a philosopher, right? Right. I mean, I'm sure it ain't shovel coal. He ended up lecturing to the Theosophical Society, which I think I've mentioned briefly in a different episode when we were talking about therapeutic touch. I think we mentioned that with draws.

Sounds familiar with us. We did. Draws was into therapeutic touch. And one of the presidents of the Theosophical Society developed their pediatric touch and many, many years later draws would be into it, but that's another episode. We've already done that. He went and lectured to them and he liked their whole thing, which the Theosophical Society had to do with like living in harmony and reaching the apex of human potential similar kind of ideas but without this sort of like and now let's make it a science and

change the world within kind of thing like it's more like let's come together harmoniously and be our best selves as opposed to now let's develop a new system of farming and medicine. Okay, I'm into that. Which is going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it.

I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it.

I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do it. I like going to do your thoughts can like shape the external world. It's very similar, it's very similar.

And it's very individualistic, that's focused on oneself as a spiritual being and all that. I mean, that's very much part of it. Although at the same time, Rudolf Steiner would say that like the ultimate goal is for what I do to be shared with my community and what others do to be shared with me like you are a member of a society like it is not Holy divorced from society

But anyway, he wanted to put his own spin on it like he liked that sort of thing But he was like I got some other ideas. So in 1912, he formed the anthroposophical society. It became pretty popular despite the fact that- With local jocks. I just said, like, come on, where'd he's the plenty guys? Come on in. So a lot of people join this.

A lot of people like this movement. We are now in Germany and we're moving into the 1920s. Yeah. And it's interesting because my understanding when I first heard about Rudolph Steiner is that he was somehow connected to the Nazis. But it's really convoluted. But it's really convoluted. The anthroposophical society was definitely banned under Nazi rule, like definitely not okay with their sort of like did not meet their worldview. And Rudolph Steiner did like reject and denounce anti-Semitism.

But it's real complicated because they were largely left unbothered by the Nazis, even though they were banned, but also sort of allowed to continue to exist. You know what I mean? And then there were some Nazis who were very much like in favor of Anthroposophy and like the Walder schools, especially, that would arise. So it's a really convoluted sort of connection there. Here is the, so I feel like that's worth mentioning because there's a lot of talk about that and certainly, and I have not read everything Rudolph Siner wrote, I cannot do that for this podcast, but there were, as much as he rejected anti-Semitism, there seemed to be a concurrent idea that everybody should sort of assimilate into the same worldview.

And like, yes, we should live in harmony, and we shouldn't harm each other, but at the same time, we should all be the same, which is not. It has to, it's very much, I don't see color. That's the ring that I got to this is like, we are shaped by our race or our religion or where we're from, but it is not, and it's so it is part of us. And like the color of our skin may have something to do with the resonance of like our spirit or something, our spiritual evolution through time, all this weird stuff. But at the end of the day, none of it mattered because we're all the same. Which is, we now know is not like a great way to approach diversity. Like I don't see color. That's a great, American melting pot kind of thing where it's like, you see these images of people

coming in and native outfits and then like they're native to their, their country. We're coming from. And then, you know, they, have you ever seen these demonstrations that they used to have that where people would like literally walk into like a big melting pot. And then they'd walk out and they'd be dressed like a white dude in a business suit. It's like look we're all we're all the same We're all the same. We all look like Yeah, I see a white dude in a business suit and abandon everything that makes you you and just get on board Yeah, and I mean, so it's it's very much that that very deeply problematic. I don't see color. We are all the same

You know sort of world view as opposed to recognizing our differences and celebrating each unique individual for those differences, that kind of thing. Anyway, I want to now focus on just the medical part of it. Oh, good. Just the medical system that would be developed by this, but before I do that, I'm just looking at you with anticipation. Let's go to the billing department. Let's go.

The medicines, the medicines that I skilled at my car before the mouth. I'm Jesse Thorn. On the next bullseye, our annual Halloween spectacular. We'll interview Anna Fabrega from Loser Spookies, Monet Exchange for Drag Race and the great RL Stein, creator of Goosebumps. You know, I don't really get too deep into the real fears. It's a lot safer to do a dummy coming to life.

Got's on the next Bullseye for MaximumFun.org and NPR. Hi, I'm Jesse Thorn, the founder of MaximumFun, and I have a special announcement. I'm no longer embarrassed by my brother and my brother in me. You know, for years, each new episode of this supposed advice show was a fresh insult, a depraved jumble of erection jokes ghost humor, and frankly, this is for the best, very little, actionable advice.

But now as they enter their twilight years, I'm as surprised as anyone to admit that it's gotten kind of good. Just in Travis and Griffin's widthicisms are more refined, like a humor column in a fancy magazine. And they hardly ever say Bazinga anymore. So, after you've completely finished listening to every single one of all of our other shows, why not join the McElroy Brothers every week for my brother, my brother and me? brothers every week for my brother, my brother and me. So here is the breakdown on the medical end of things because as I said, like there were a lot of different fields that would be developed from anthropocity.

One was a medicinal branch. So the belief is that the human is formed by four forces. There's like the physical, water, fire. There's this physical force, which is like your cells. There's growth forces and like think about this in different. So like physical forces are what bring an object together. Right, cells or atoms or whatever, the structure of something. There is the growth force which like this would be like a plant. So a plant has a physical force and a growth force. It lives at growth.

It changes, right? Then there's the next thing which is like what we would think of as the soul. Something that interacts with the other two forces and it gives us like sensory and motor and nervous systems and all that. So like animals have this, we have this, animals have this too, right? So that's what differentiates an animal from a plant in this sort of structure.

Does that make sense? And then finally you get to the spirit. And the spirit is what makes us human and it's the capacity for like reflective thinking. Okay. So we have these four formative forces human and it's the capacity for like reflective thinking. So we have these four formative forces that make a human. So we got life, growth, spirit, and soul.

Yeah. And then there is the threefold model of human constitution, which interacts with these four forces. So you have to understand these sets of ideas and how they interact to understand the human body. And beyond. I shouldn't just say the body. The human entity. These three subsystems are basically that you can kind of think of them as in different parts of the body. There's the nerve-scent system, which is like sort of your head, brain, nervous can kind of think of them as in different parts of the body. There's the nerve sense system, which is like sort of your head, brain, nervous system,

kind of thing. But not just physical again, like it's beyond that. It's your sense. It's everything that senses the world around you, thinking and feeling and being and all that. There is the motor metabolic system, which is in your arms and legs,

which is what makes you move and function. And then there is the rhythmic system, which is what we think of like breathing and circulation and sort of- That happens without you. And it connects us all. What's that called? The parts that things that don't require conscious thought to do, there's a medical term

for- like breathing. Autonomic. So you're thinking, yeah. So yes, and all of these four forces interact differently with the three subsystems. So like, for instance, in the nerve-sense system, so you think of your brain and your feeling and your thinking and all that, the physical and growth forces are very separate from the spirit and the soul. Okay.

That allows us to move beyond the physical and perceive of that, which we cannot see, but can understand through the power of thought. Site beyond sight, my clientele. Yes. There is the, when we talk about like the motor metabolic system, it's very, they're very closely tied because the things that we are moving and interacting with and sensing and seeing and spirit and like all of that stuff, it has to do with like, I think about moving my arm, my arm moves. It's very entwined, right?

Yes. And then when you get to the rhythmic system, it's a fluctuation. So like breathing and circulation, it changes how entwined those things are, depending on what you're doing. Are you riding a bicycle? And so you're moving quickly.

So your breathing and circulation is very much tied to the physical movement and the physical world and it's all connected and what you're sensing in that moment. Or are you breathing faster or is your blood pumping faster because of you've interacted with something that scared you or made you excited or you've had a revelation of some sort. Does that make sense? Okay.

All of that is how you, so if you see the body in this term, that's how you come up with like what is pathology then, what causes disease, and from that you derive treatments. So it's a totally different way than like, I mean, it mirrors some of the ways we look at the human body in, you know, alopathic osteopathic, more traditional medicine systems, but it's not the same. Obviously. It has a little bit of humor's flavor to it. It does. Well, I mean, it pulls in pseudo scientific and occultist thinking.

I mean, like that was part of what he thought. He believed he could sense ghosts. That's part of it. Is the thought that like Justin, you too could see a ghost. He's serious, Clark. Like, it's not just a gift in the sense that he understood time. That's what he said. Even at 15 years old, he fully understood time as a concept. That's cool.

And so he was able to be clairvoyant because he had already developed a full understanding of time. If Justin, you could ever master a full understanding of time, you too could be clairvoyant. Man, are you telling me that the edge, bono, the whole gang could be clairvoyant? If I, wait, are you saying if I put the work into understanding time, then Bono and the edge and all of them could be clairvoyant? Oh, I get what you just did there. He just made a pun because I said you too. I'm saying they're thinking, why is Bono in this? It feels

kind of Bono. I mean, like it all feel like this Bono maybe into some of this. I don't know. Feels like a you two song sometime. That's no shade on Bono. I don't have beef with Bono or anything. Anyway, you see uniquely Bono. It's just Yeah. My read on him is that he's extremely bono, almost irrepressibly bono, relentlessly bono. So basically, when these systems get out of whack, you get sick. When the interactions between these four formative forces and the three subsystems are out of balance, when something is too deeply intertwined or too disconnected, then you get sick. And so in order to fix that, it's like it's not just, you know, you have hypothyroidism, here is a medication that will increase the amount of active thyroid hormone in your blood.

Like it's nothing that pragmatic. It's tough to treat if it's so amorphous, right? Yes. It's nothing that pragmatic. It's tough to treat if it's so amorphous, right? Yes, it's a multimodal therapeutic system that we will apply to your entire person in order to allow you to heal yourself. Mm. We will regulate your systems and that will heal yourself. Okay.

Okay, so it's not a cure all. It's a whole system of medicine. Okay. Okay. So it's not a cure all. It's a whole system of medicine. It's you don't you don't go and get like the anthroposophic pill. You go to a doctor who practices this or a nurse who's been trained in this or a hospital that just does this or a clinic that just does this. So it's integrated into some traditional diseases, cure all body, cure the whole body. Yes. Okay. In order to, well, it's in order to allow you to cure yourself. Okay. Yes, of course. At the end of the day, you have to have the will

and the responsibility of doing it, but we will give you the tools that will allow you to. Okay. Every time I say this stuff, I get mad at myself. I'm going to give you, I'm going to listen to me. I'm going to give you the tools that will allow you to take control of your health. I mean, you hear it guys. People say we live what?

70, 80 years? That's wrong. You hear this echoed in so much pseudoscience today. Oh, anyway. So they do use some, and like I said, some of this has been integrated into hospitals the way we think of them in like traditional medicine. Right.

And then some of these are free standing sort of things. So it's either an alternative medicine, a complimentary medicine. It is regarded as pseudoscientific because it's not based on evidence or studies or rigorous clinical research. Just sort of a philosophy that has been put into a medical field. They use some, what I would think of as like actual medicine, like traditional medicine, you know, things that were tested and trialed, that can be part of it. I'm not saying they would never give you an antibiotic, they might.

That could be part of it. But then they also have their own pharmacopia, which has like herbal medicines, some homeopathic remedies are part of what they do. They develop their own sort of medicines derived like from a specific mineral or a plant and they can be compounded in mass. Like, I need the thing that's compounded for this disorder or you can ask specifically like, my patient has this isn't this, so I need you to compound this substance

and this substance and this substance, put it all together and give it to them to take as a tincture or apply on their skin or whatever, right? Do you like a compress? Pultus, if you will. Again, you're looking at the whole, when you do these like, metat these herbal medicines, a lot of the times, okay, so we know that we get medicines from plants.

We've talked about it on the show, medicines that were derived from plants, digitalis, fox gloves. We've talked about this stuff. However, what we do is we isolate the active ingredient, what's the thing that's causing the effect, and we put that into the medicine, right? You don't that's why we don't tell you like you need Digitallis go eat this flower We give you a pill Okay, well they believe that like

It's the whole plant not just the active ingredient that can provide the benefit So we would never just remove the active ingredient and give it to you like a medicine You need to consider the entire thing and whether or not it contains the formative forces that you need for your condition alongside the quote unquote active ingredient, which they would argue is like only, only a piece of it. Active implies it's the thing that's acting, whereas the whole thing is acting. So you don't want to just like treat something with a coconut. You want to consider the coconut.

Consider it to be easy. Well, you have to consider whether the coconut has the right forces along with whatever active ingredient might be inside it. Okay. Because maybe it is not the appropriate delivery mechanism for what you're trying to do. Maybe it's a bounty bar. You don't know.

Lemon and quince are good for allergic granitis, like a runny nose from allergies. Good enough. Because of not just whatever active ingredient they're talking about, like, I don't know, because they're citrus. I don't know. They're also talking about how their, their formative forces are good for allergies, because they counter the type of formative forces are good for allergies, because they counter the type of formative forces that cause allergies. You want to counter them. A little different

than homeopathy where light cares like, now you're countering forces, although sometimes they are homeopathic. Also, mistletoe treats tumors. There's no more information I have on that other than that sort of... I mean, that's huge though. Yeah, it doesn't, but... What if it did? Beyond these sort of compounded specialized medicines, there's also like, there's specialized nursing training

you can go through. That's a big focus of it is like, as a nurse is not just tasked with what they consider like the exterior of the patient, which would be like helping your patient get cleaned up, giving them an IV, making sure a wound is bandaged like the outside But that a nurse is tasked with the interior of the human as well And so like you need to be considering their soul and their spirit and caring for those things at the same time

Which I would argue You're kind of doing already sure right. I don't think we ever look at nurses and say, could you go take care of that patient's soul for me? Right, but they do. But they do. I mean, when you're being kind and caring and compassionate, I think this is just a more rigorous way of applying that. Did you get any sort of read on psychotherapy and psychiatry? I'm going to get there.

That's a big focus for other groups that may or may not be in any way similar to this. I know where you're going. I had the same thought. I will get to psychotherapy. That is a piece of it. So, there's also art therapy, music therapy can be part of it. These are all like, if you go to a hospital where they practice anthroposophy, those would be part of it.

Some special things just for this is your Rhythmie, which is a set of exercises that you do. Like they give you these movements. You get like 12 to 15 treatments with an instructor. Each one is 30 to 45 minutes, then you have to do the movements yourself. They're movements that are related to sounds of vowels or consonants, sometimes musical intervals, and sometimes soul gestures.

And you can do them in groups or singly. I think they do this at Waldorf schools, I believe. This is part of what they do at a Waldorf school, or these movements where you visualize the sound of words. I think it's also where they got the name for the Eurythmix. Really? Well, it makes sense. I googled your Eurythmix and the first hit is your, your, your rhythm. You move your body to the sounds of words or intervals. All right. And very like, pre, like they tell you exactly what to do. The movements already decided.

You don't just do what you want to do. They tell you how to move your body. There's also rhythmic massage, which is kind of like massage, except they're balancing polarities and regulating systems. They say that they use the grip and touch method. I tried that really. Yeah, let's stop there. It can treat your soul and spirit as well as your body. And of course, with a lot of these things, they'll say, and because we use these rhythmic methods and not just regular massage, it can be used for asthma or angina or degenerative diseases of the nervous system, tumors, psychiatry and special needs.

Okay. Yeah. There's also specialized psychotherapy. So that is an entire branch of it where I couldn't get into like, what actually are you doing? A lot of it were case studies, like you can read these case studies where we applied this. And then it's like scientific research is ongoing. Meaning we don't have any studies. We have some like cases we can tell you about,

which are also called anecdotes. But like basically you apply the principles of the formative forces and the subsystems along with life after death and life before birth and the fact that our life has cycles of seven years and every seven years is like a different stage of life that we must address and adjust to and you use all of that and then talk to people about it. I can't imagine you at like a party and you're by yourself and people wander up and you're just like so anyway, where was I? Right. Okay, so the body has an energy that you...

Steiner also developed an addition to this, and I should say like he laid the groundwork for all this. A lot of people since then have built upon this work and developed all of these very codified sort of systems. And like, there's tons of, what, there's over 1200 walled dwarf schools. There's quite a few hospitals and clinics and doctors and nurses who practice this kind of medicine. And they may do it in conjunction with like,

you get a traditional medical degree and then do this too. I actually think for some of these, like for the psychotherapy, I think you have to go either become a psychologist or psychiatrist to then get this training on top of it and do it. So in that sense, I would say, and especially when you look at like Germany is very into homeopathic medicine more so than a lot of other countries. And so they regulate it more. Whereas here, like you just throw these homeopathic things up on the shelf next to actual medicine. Yeah.

And just sort of sell it all together. I think it's a little more codified there. And so this would probably also be more codified in Germany than you would necessarily see in the US where we just kind of throw things at the wall and see what sticks. He developed biodynamic farming, which was sort of like organic farming, except also you put these special compounds in the soil that would balance life forces of the organism

that is the farm and stuff. So there were principles that are applied today in organic farming, but then there were also some like pseudoscientific occultist thought to that. Obviously the Waldorf School School's, which were named that because Emil Malt invited him to come lecture to his workers

at the Waldorf Astoria cigarette factory in 1919. And after that, the Waldorf School was developed named for that. That's why it's named that. And Rudolf Hess was a big patron of these schools. That's part of the tie-in to the Nazism thing. So anyway, this medicinal field, whatever you think about, anthroposophy, whatever you feel about anthroposophy, the idea that you can sense the spiritual through thinking, I don't know, I mean, if that helps you in your day to day life,

Hey, go for it. I have no problem with like, you have some weird ideas, Justin, and I love you very much. And if they serve you well, I'm not going to criticize you for that. Wow. That's like the most general thing to say about a human being that's also extremely damning. You have some unconventional beliefs that we're not gonna dig into on the podcast right now. What is that? Why don't we do anything bad?

Give me one example. I don't know. I'm not gonna, I don't wanna share your weird ideas with the world. You just wanna alert to them. I have weird ideas. We all have weird things that we, you know, we all have our own thing. And that's okay. I don't mind that.

And if you find like a system of thinking and believing that helps you live a happy, healthy life where you do good and know harm, I think that's great. I think the problem is that this sounds to me like a philosophical system that was sort of crammed into a medical structure without any evidence for any of it. There's no, I mean, like all of this, I Sophical system that was sort of crammed into a medical structure Without any evidence for any of it. There's no I mean like all of this. I don't have any clinical studies or like Anything to tell you that any of this works. I don't know if you're with me works. I don't know rhythmic massage works all these medicines that they're talking about I couldn't even find lists of them easily anywhere Because it sounds like it's very like individual Yeah, and I think the problem is that that's very seductive to patients.

The idea that your treatment plan is individual to you. Yes. We all want that. We all want to think that our provider is looking at us as a unique human and trying to find what works best for us. Yes. But there are limits to that. Sometimes you need this kind of medicine for this condition

and it doesn't really matter who you are. Now, how can we best help you live with that and take that treatment and monitor that treatment, and once the best delivery method, all that might change from person to person, but it doesn't change basic science underneath it. And the two can live together not necessarily in this way. But anyway, thank you Hannah for telling me about, I've never heard of this and there are hospitals where they just do this. Are they clearly labeled?

Yeah, yeah, no, they're clearly labeled. And then I think that there's also like integrative medicine system. So if you go somewhere where they're like, we practice integrative medicine, I'm not saying this is the kind of thing they're integrating, but this is one of those like alternative medical systems that you might toss in there with conventional medicine.

And I don't know. You can always ask though. Yeah, just tell me prefer medicine medicine if they do that kind. Just you'd like that kind of medicine. As far as I can tell, if you wanna avoid this, you can come to West Virginia. Hey, right.

Hey, number 50 of the lot of stats, including representation of anthropocrystalline. Or Waldorf schools. We don't have those either. So. Thank you so much for listening to our podcast. We hope you've enjoyed yourself. Hope you learned a little something.

Thanks to the taxpayers for you. So there's song medicines as the intro and outro of our program. And thanks to you for listening. We really appreciate it. We hope you have a good one. That's gonna do it first for this week until next time. My name is Justin McRoy. I'm Sydney McRoy.

And as always, don't drill a hole in your head. Alright! Comedy and Culture. Artist-owned? Audience-supported.