Sawbones: A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine - Sawbones: Benjamin Rush

Episode Date: September 6, 2013

Welcome to Sawbones, where Dr. Sydnee McElroy and her husband Justin McElroy take you on a whimsical tour of the dumb ways in which we've tried to fix people. This week: We met a hero of medicine who was also a bit of a nut. Music: "Medicines" by The Taxpayers (http://thetaxpayers.net)

Saubones is a show about medical history, and nothing the hosts say should be taken as medical advice or opinion. It's for fun. Can't you just have fun for an hour and not try to diagnose your mystery boil? We think you've earned it. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy a moment of distraction from that weird growth. You're worth it. that weird growth. You're worth it. Alright, Tommy is about to books. One, two, one, two, three, four. We came across a pharmacy with the two windows busted out. We were shot through the broken glass and had ourselves a look around.

The medicines, the medicines, the escalators, my cop, for the mouth! Hello everybody and welcome to Saw Bones, a marital tour of misguided medicine. I am Your co-host Justin McElroy. And I'm Sydney McElroy. Sydney, what are we talking about today? I'm excited. Well, Justin, I feel like we've spent several. I don't know how many weeks We've been doing this. What? Probably about 35 weeks now. This is week 11. Oh, okay. Close.

Week 11. Close. Talking, you know, really talking down the medical profession. Sure. Well, you guys have done a lot of like wicked bad stuff. Okay. Well, obviously, and like I said, we've spent the last 74 weeks talking about that. But, you know, as a physician myself, I would like to point out that there are some stars

in our sky of medical history. Is that a good? So, you found a hero of medical history. I think so. I scoured the records and I found somebody that I really think we can talk about just his successes in the world of medicine that really truly exemplifies what it means to be a physician and to just take really good care of people and being all around good person. So no bad thing.

No bad stuff whatsoever. Just good old-fashioned like, nose to the grindstone, hard work, research, and medicine. Okay, sounds like a great combination. Sydney, who are we talking about? Who is the man of the hour? We're gonna talk about Benjamin Rush. Benjamin Rush, Hero of Medicine. Hero of Medicine. We're gonna talk about Benjamin Rush. Benjamin Rush, hero of medicine.

Hero of medicine. Do you know anything about Benjamin Rush? Not a thing. Well, let me tell you some things. First of all, Benjamin was born in 1746 in Pennsylvania. Good start. He grew up on a plantation. He was one of seven children. He was educated at the College of New Jersey,

which would later become Perinston, and he attended Med School in Edinburgh, Scotland. He was also fluent in Spanish, French, and Italian, and presumably English. Oh, okay. One would hope. This would become quite a success story, if not, making your way in 1700s America. When he returned to the colonies, he opened his own practice, and he taught chemistry, and he actually published the first chemistry textbook.

Wow. But if you've heard of him, it's probably because he was one of the first, he was one of the founding fathers of this nation and a signer of the Declaration of Independence. Wow, that's really impressive. I know. He was a physician, he was a writer. He was a teacher. He was a humanitarian. He served as surgeon general to the continental army. Did you know that? I didn't. I told you. I mean, literally everything here is fresh ground for me. I mean,

anything you give me here, I'm like a babe in the woods. He was instrumental in like early preventative military medicine. He went and evaluated how we were caring for soldiers on the front lines during the early battles of the Revolutionary War. He was a huge supporter of the Revolutionary War. And he actually would have continued to do so, except he called out one of his superior physicians for misappropriating goods that were supposed

to go to soldiers. Wow. Food and wine and stuff. So not only sort of a hero of the battlefield, but also a moral man. Definitely a moral man. He was also a leader in the abolitionist movement. Oh great, yeah, that is of course the people

who fought for slavery, being illegal. Yes, they fought against slavery, maybe a better way to put that. That's a more conventional stating, but I was reading from one of their brochures. And right here, it says they fought for slavery to be illegal later. That's what it says. Right. And they specifically wanted it to be illegal later. Free the slavery. Free the slave. So does. Whatever. It's convenient for you, please.

We're mad as hell and we're only going to take it for a moderate amount of time after this announcement. Thank you for your attention. Thank you for your attention. He was in addition to advocating for the rights of slaves. He advocated for free public schools. He sought for improved education for free public schools. Love it. He sought for improved education for women.

Good, great. More reform in our penal system. I knew you'd laugh at that. It was a good joke. You wrote a good joke. He was a leader in the enlightenment of America. He also, as a physician, promoted public health, as well as personal health, community hygiene,

he was one of the first people, even before we really understood that there were germs that could be in water and people could be exposed to, he figured out that if he helped reroute this creek that it would reduce the rates of cholera and typhus and typhoid knock-ins of illnesses in the area, and he did that, which was a great public health service. So he didn't know about germs per se,

but he, what he just knew there was something, some bad water. Well, he believed in like research and the idea that there was an empiric evidence, there was a way to kind of figure things out. He didn't do a lot of that, but he understood that there was a way to kind of systematically figure out an answer to a problem. Okay, Roman assigned to like that.

He was. He wrote the first case report ever on dengue fever. He created the first public dispensary so that low-income families could get medications. Wow. That's pretty cool. Pretty awesome. He was also, many people know him for his contributions to psychiatric illness, to the whole idea of American psychiatry. He was the first one to claim that addiction is a disease.

Wow. He also believed that there was a way to morally treat patients with psychiatric illness. So he went into the silums and said, let's, you know, I mean, they were basically places with dungeons where we chained up people who were mentally ill. And he said, Yeah, we got into that a little bit in the little body in that person, horrific treatment of the mentally ill throughout history.

Absolutely. And he stepped in and said, this is not the way to treat these people. We need to get them out of the chains and into a regular hospital setting, help them, treat them well, put them to work, give them things that they can do and make them invested in their own health

Awesome awesome. It's so nice to hear You know a real medical You know a real medical hero. He really was Justin So everybody take a minute today and celebrate Benjamin Rush Well, thank you guys. This has been Saw Bones. Wait, Sydney. First off, it is in the terms of our prenuptial agreement

that I do science for all Indian all podcasts that we go host together. Oh, of course, we'll go ahead, start that sign off right now. Okay. No, right about now. Okay. You're in a real rush to get to the sign.

A Benjamin rush, right, you say? Okay. I'm gonna let that one slide. You really wanna get to the ending the show. No, no, I don't think so. No? No, no, no, I just think, what, you know, what else we need to say? I think we're good.

Sydney. And go about good. I think a tight seven minute show is about all we need. Sydney. Thank you guys. Sydney. Let's hit that. Let's hit that taxpayer song.

Somebody loves that song. Sydney. Is there something you're not telling me about Benjamin Rush? Well, what I not be telling you about Benjamin Rush. Well, you're talking like that, which leads me to believe that you definitely, definitely, are not telling me something about Benjamin Rush. There, there's like one thing, like, I mean, there are things, everybody did things in their life. I don't know that we necessarily need to include it in this episode. Well, I don't think it could hurt. Why don't know that we necessarily need to include it in this episode.

Well, I don't think it could hurt. Why don't you go ahead and just hit me with it. Just to give people a full, I'm sure Benjamin Rush doesn't have any really notable scultons in his closet, but why don't you go ahead and just hit me with it? Well, I mean, he just, you know, he, even though he was part of the continental Congress and he signed the Declaration of Independence, he wrote some nasty letters about George Washington. That was pretty much it. I mean, he almost got fired, but then he, you know, he felt bad about it and he wrote

some nice things and it's okay. It's all okay. You know, no big deal, really. That's it. Pretty much. Okay. That's it. Pretty much. Okay. Uh, why don't you go ahead and tell me the other thing that you are definitely, definitely not telling me.

Well, there, you know that whole thing about how he was an abolitionist. Yes, I remember. Remember we had that great bit about the Friends' Laves later. Right. Exactly. You didn't know what abolitionist meant. Right. Exactly. You didn't know what abolitionist meant. Right. No, wrong.

So he wrote, you know, this really great pamphlet about how we shouldn't own slaves in 1773, which is confusing because allegedly he then bought a slave in 1776. Okay. All right. he then bought us slave in 1776. Okay. All right. He was just excited about the nation being free. I guess that was how he celebrated. He bought us slave, treated himself to a person. Not the best way.

Well, not the best at all. I like to say it was just like one of those crazy things that you do like. Sure, Vegas wedding. You know in your 20s. But but he as of 1784 when he joined the Pennsylvania abolition society, he's still as far as we know he still owned the slave. Oh my god.

He bought because he kind of took him to the meeting. What? Well, I mean, I don't think he was with them him to the meeting. What? Well, I mean, I don't think he was with him in the room, but I think he traveled with him, like hung out in the hotel. That just seems odd. It seems odd. Okay, why wouldn't you mention this before?

Well, I mean. That's it, right? I this before? Well, I mean. That's it, right? I mean, you're, I mean. Well, okay, when I say that it seems odd, I guess I should clarify. If you look at his beliefs on, you know, the difference between white people and black people, if you look at that, it really isn't that odd, I guess.

In context. In context of his beliefs. Wait, what, okay, what beliefs? It's, well, okay, so in 1792, he wrote a statement that basically, I mean, pretty much said that being black was a disease of kindlepracy. Oh, okay, so not great. He thought it was curable and that if you lived

a good, clean life, you could become white. Who is this man? Okay, so he wasn't really that great of a guy. Yeah, yeah, he sounds like, like, kind of, definitely not a great guy. So, and actually not only not that great, but maybe not that bright. So, he based all this on the idea that there was a slave

who probably had Vidaligo, which is a condition that can make someone who is, you know, of darker skin become lighter skinned. And so he thought that, hey, maybe everybody who's African-American can become white and he had this whole idea that we could cure that. So he went on to write a paper that basically said white people and black people shouldn't get married.

Oh, wonderful. Yeah. So that's fantastic. Yeah. So when we start to talk about it, he's not really such a great guy now. No, I mean in the context of well people and humanity not a great dude Got some things right though Yeah

But that's all he got wrong. I mean he had he had outdated views on race And that's very unfortunate. He had pretty outdated views on some other things He advocated for separate schools for men and women Okay, basically the idea being that like we'll teach women about poetry and art and music, and then we'll teach men, math, and logic because women can't do that. And then we should also teach women to the idea of Republican motherhood. Just really patriotic. Yeah, just to sit at home and at home and like I don't know sing

song military songs to your kids or something And you know my mom is is a is an odd part before you come over and play Nintendo I do want to warn you She sings a Eurogrand old flag your high flying flag at the top of her lungs in opportune moments Just a quick quick, quick heads up. And she's probably going to make you so an American flag. Yeah. And she makes American flag shoe cookies.

And she has a tattoo of a ball eagle on her hip. She says it's a company just to warn you just to warn you. You know, it's, it's, it's a, it's a good reminder, Sydney. I think that as we look throughout history, some of these people who were right about things they were experts in, I mean, he was obviously right on everything medically, could have some pretty outdated social views, you know, like it's an interesting dichotomy. Well, that would be true, Justin, if he were right about medicine. Uh-oh.

But he actually There were a lot of areas where he was off the mark there too. Okay. So Benjamin Rush probably shed more blood than any man in history. Oh, no He was it when we I won't talk about bloodletting because we've talked about it before But he was a big proponent of bloodletting, which is interesting because we're getting into the, the era where it was falling out of favor. He was kind of the last guy wearing leisure suits. What?

The last guy at the disco and I wanted to give up the studio for the fourth dream. And there are a lot of European doctors who are saying like, really we should stop that. And he said, no. And as a result, he probably contributed to the deaths of both George Washington and Ben Franklin. Great. Congratulations, Benjamin Rush. You did it.

We didn't need them anyway. One of the best is he was involved in the yellow fever epidemic of 1793, which he kind of started off badly because he thought it was caused by the smell of rotting coffee beans along the Delaware River. In case you were wondering, it wasn't. It wasn't, no, that's not the time. That's not the time you're looking for.

Yeah, yellow fever. Well, you know, he must have been so confused when people kept calling it the yellow fever epidemic of 1793 when he kept trying to get the bad coffee smell of today epidemic of right now. And he you know most of these people he just wanted to treat with bleeding that was his favorite way to treat people. Fresh coffee. But you know you know you it's a wonder he didn't come up with that. Yeah. Yeah let me crack open this arabica.

That could be a whole new folder. This is commercial. It'll cure your yellow fever. No, we'll not actually cure your yellow fever. He also advocated wrapping people in vinegar soaked blankets until they would sweat it out. You could also then like unwrap them and bathe them in mercury and cold water. Mm. Well, I mean, you'll be distracted from the yellow fever because you'll be having basically the most annoying day in history. He actually later realized that that didn't work. Okay. Okay. Hey, too is credit.

He advocated a lot of mercury used to take it as a diuretic and take it to make you throw up. There was another cathartic something that would make you puke, a gelop, J-A-L-A-P gelop. So you could use that, he advocated that. Is that, I mean, that is that worse than like, ipa-cac and stuff like that, cause we use stuff like that. It's similar idea,

but we don't use it, but cac really, and get more. Really? For the most part, no. Most of the thing, I would explain why I've I've heard about it But never actually seen it in real life that would explain now. No, I mean that it the reason being that first of all if you've got something

Costic or dangerous in your stomach It may be more dangerous to make it come back up your esophagus and secondly We don't want you to accidentally aspirate it down into your lungs on the way back up. So, so don't use Epicach. If you've ingested something, go to a hospital. Go on, well wait, you can just pause it. Pause your eyes. Yeah, just pause it.

We'll get back to Benjamin Rush when you return. Let's get back to Benjamin Rush. I hope you're feeling better. Yeah, yeah. We'll send you some flowers later. Send us your address. And a review on iTunes. He, actually, at the end of the Yellow Fever epidemic, uh, he was accused of killing

more people than he had saved publicly. And uh, by European doctor, Cobb, and he, um, he sued that doctor for libel in one. Hey, well, I mean, you can't go away with, uh, with, uh, that being that, uh, wrong, unless I guess you can. I think it's pretty awesome that you could sue somebody for a libel in the 1790s. Yeah, who knew that you even had paper? You didn't know they had paper. I know they had paper, course, but not ink.

I don't know. You know, the gag is just that you don't know about medicine. You don't have to pretend to not know about anything. Okay. Dually noted, got it. And it's not a gag. I really don't know anything about medicine to not know about anything. Okay. Dually noted, got it. And it's not a gag. I really don't know anything about medicine. I know about 10 medical things

because I let you talk to me about them for half an hour. And we record it. And then you instantly forget that. I instantly forget like a tea in the lean. He also asked it. Now everybody, now the movie, now. It's my nail in person. That was your, okay.

Are you done quoting nail now? I actually, I mean, even if you wanted me to continue, I don't have anything. Little bit of tape, I could do a little bit of tape. And you know what, I don't want you to continue, so don't worry. Okay, go on. He outfitted the Lewis and Clark expedition.

Hey, see, there you go, that's good. You know what he sent him along with? Um, medicine. How about some Turkish opium? Fantastic. It's great for nervousness. Yeah, well, yes. It probably is.

Yes, correct. Bad for like expediting. That's what the Lewis and Clark expedition is still going on to this day. You guys feel like expediting today? Me neither. Let's chill. Over 200 years.

Past me those Cheetos we invented. They also, which went well with this. He also told him to take some medicinal wine, which I guess was wine. I guess this is why everyone calls it the coolest expedition ever. No expedition afterwards, it would live up to this. No wonder Sakajueh hooked up with him.

Yeah, whoa, you know, I never been... It's a piece of cake. I never been back on the white band, but this is all right. Now on the flip side, he also sent with him his patented mercury pills. It was just a certain, you know, everybody had mercury pills at the time,

but his were known as thunder clappers. Uh, thunder clappers, go on. Well they worked really well as laxatives. Hence the name. Oh man, you know this expedition is seeming less cool by the minute. You know what was cool is that he sent, I mean he sent hundreds of these pills with them to take on, I mean, because if you need one thing for an expedition, it's a laxative. Right.

So he sent so many of these that archaeologists, decades later, were able to use the mercury from the pills to trace the path of their expedition across the country. Wow, wow, that is a lot of laxative. Isn't that awesome? That's fantastic. I think that's pretty cool.

Hey, this guy won't give up the mercury dream. He must have had stock of mercury for all the mercury mine somewhere. Yeah. Now, I do think we should visit, you know, his work with mineral illness because- Sure, the one good note, sort of bright spot in his medical

history now, I guess. There certainly, you know, it certainly was a good thing, the idea that we should, you know, the moral therapy concept that we need to not chain and, you know, completely lock up people who were mentally ill. Obviously, that was a bad idea. But his reasoning for why his mental illness occur was a little off base again, as most people was at bad idea. But his reasoning for why it is mental illness occur was a little off base again as most people was at the time. It resulted from he thought poor circulation to the brain, maybe sensory overload, or maybe

bad weather, or blood transfusions from animals to humans, or maybe worms. I feel a storm coming, my trick, my trick brains acting up. Look at it swells, size of a melon, it's dumb. Or maybe it's just sympathy between your brain and your hemorrhoids. Is that you speculating or is that a Benjamin Russ joint? No, that was a Benjamin Russ joint. Fantastic.

No, that was not, did you think that was my guess? I thought you were taking a shot in the dark, you wanna push us forward. I have a degree. I can see it, it's actually in, in eye shot. I keep it there during this show to remind myself. Yeah. He also invented the gyrater?

No, what's that? That sounds like fun. It was, it was for the therapy known as swinging. We're by, yeah. No, no, not the fun kind. You, you put a patient in a chair that suspended from the ceiling with like a chain and you just swing them around like a top for hours and hours.

Only on extremashaints.com. The idea is that you can get more blood flow to the brain that way. And you can? You could also use like a centrifugal spinning board that he created. Although it's not clear that he ever actually used it in his hospitals. He did try it out with patients. We're just strap him to like a giant wheel of fortune and spin him around until they're blood rushed

to their head. Only our extremities. Also a sensory deprivation chair. Yeah, that's only our extremities. Are we done with that, Jack now? It was like, he also caught at the tranquilizer chair and he would just strap him to a chair and then put like a box over their head so they couldn't see or hear or speak

and then just leave him there for days. That doesn't work. No, I wouldn't think so. No, these are bad ideas in case that wasn't clear. We don't do this anymore. No, okay. He also, and as I said, he advocated like letting them mentally work around the hospital to like, you know, kind of get them back into society, like into, you know, because they're humans, so we should treat them that way.

And that inspired a lot of other doctors to do the same thing. So there was this whole time period where doctors were like strapping mentally ill patients to plows. Now, that is not that uncommon in the walls of the cala, the fifth novel in the gunslingers series. Young people come back roomed after the wolves take them, come back to cala and are put to work that way because they're very strong and so it's I mean there's a historical basis for that. I don't know what you're talking about. Is the fifth gunslinger book? It's just history.

Is that your medical reference? Oh, that's history. History. We need to cover what history is at some point. Who do that privately? Go on. I'm sorry to interrupt you with my brief detour into the gunslinger novels. Well, this isn't actually one of Benjamin Rush's treatment techniques. I do think it's worth noting that his therapies inspired another doctor to pour watering can of urine on a patient who thought he was a plant, not clear how that fixed anything. Now, don't think that's a good treatment.

But he attributed. His idea of Benjamin Rush. I'm not gonna give that guy the historical past that I will extend to so many. You did not, sir, sir, sir, sir, you did not think that would help. I do not, you can try to convince me that you could try to tell me,

oh, I'm an old time guy. I don't know, you knew it would not help. You wanted to pour pee on a human. I also I'm pretty sure he didn't have an actual watering can so he used a teapot. Fanta you couldn't even commit to the bit Um nightmare. He uh, he also of course used a lot more mercury and bleeding for for mental illness as well That was kind of the mainstay of his treatment. He, one of the worst ideas I have to say is he thought people who suffered, he had observed, were less likely to be suffering from mental illness. He really

thought that mental illness was more something that occurred to the rich in idle. He actually had a list of risk factors for mental illness. So these are the more the ones he cited most frequently. Children of insane parents. Okay, that's probably. And that's not totally off the mark. We know now that some mental illnesses have a genetic component. Is insane an offensive term at this point.

Yeah, we don't use that word. Not, no, I, mental. No, no, no. I meant to illness. I mean, no. I'm sure you're using his vernacular. These were his criteria as written by him, not as said by me. There were also individuals who were isolated and lonely, such as unmarried persons or women living in front of your settlements.

I mean, like his, I'm not a man of science. I think that we all gathered this. His inability to grasp the difference between like, like relation and causation. Like, yeah, I mean, I guess you're right, but maybe people who are severely, severely mentally ill probably don't happen into a lot of super stable relationships. Like, how does he not see this?

Yeah, and that, I mean, this is like a hallmark of the time period where people would see things occurring together and we had no concept of correlation versus causation versus which came first, you know, who knows. He also believed that dark hair was a risk factor for mental illness. I don't know if that could just be extrapolated that more people have dark hair than light hair.

I don't know. I just want to be special, you know, when I said themselves apart. As we go more general, people between the age of 20 and 50. Good job. Yeah. So not, you know, didn't want to, not everybody necessarily. But again, also the rich and idle who basically had, as he put it, the leisure to look back upon the past

and to anticipate the future and imaginary evils. So if you had time to have a mental illness, then you got one essentially. A parent can talk? No, no, no. Tuesday. It's not much too busy for that. Good for me. As a result, he thought suffering could cure mental illness.

And so in the most extreme cases, some have written that he would cut patients and pour acid in their wounds, then he would, and this was actually a common medical practice at the time to keep a wound open, keep irritating it. It was called counter irritation, to prevent it from healing for years, because it was thought that that would somehow reduce inflammation elsewhere. That's not true, but it was, it was practice beyond just Benjamin Rush. He believed a simulated near drowning was good for a patient. And he also observed that in India they would tame elephants through

starvation. So we thought, you know, why not try to tame people the same way? I say I know we we delve into a lot of like really gross medical practices. I could listen to a thousand like rip your toenails off, to cure your migraine, like that does not get to me that much, but the way, and I know I've mentioned it before, but like the way we have treated mentally ill people in this country over the past ever. In every country.

In this country, in every country, is, I mean, it's despicable. And I know that we, I know that it's like, it's a really complex problem, and we just weren't, it's despicable. And I know that we, I know that it's like, it's a really complex problem. And we just weren't, it wasn't as easy to crack as like, broken arm. And he was, you know, part of the reason that to this day, and I haven't looked at the seal in a while,

but I believe that if you look at like the, the seal for the American Psychiatric Association, Benjamin Rush is still on it, is because he was one of the first people to say, you Association, Benjamin Rush is still on it, is because he was one of the first people to say, you know, mental illness is an illness and not the result of demons or possession. So that was a step in the right direction, to be fair, to his credit.

All right. And I guess the last thing as long as we're being completely honest, you know, he did believe that addiction was a disease and he was a big advocate for treating alcoholism as a disease. But mainly he was ardently anti-alcohol. He was anti-sex. He advocated against masturbation. Prostitution was actually pretty rampant and accepted practice

in the colonies prior to, you know, after the revolution in the Enlightenment, there was a kind of like a new movement for purity and morality and to escape our European, evil European values. And so he, you know, he was a big part of that movement, which as a result, it didn't do anything to help the quote-unquote fallen women who would be stuffed into asylums basically by the dozens, because that was the only way that they could get their venereal diseases treated.

Resulting in a lot of women never seeking treatment, because the only way you could get it is if you admitted that you'd had sex and then you were put in the exact kind of institution that Benjamin Rush wasn't a fan of. So full disclosure. But other than that, totally cool. Total hero. Total hero, Vazin.

Thank you so much for listening. We're really sorry about Benjamin Rush and all of his missteps. We're gonna get some flack on this one, I think. Why is that? I'm sure there's some Benjamin Rush fans out there. I mean, you gotta take your heroes as they are. Don't make idols out of anybody. That's what the Lubby Blaces says.

Exactly. They are only as good as their time and the science of the time and their understanding and their social situation. And how racist they are. Racist they are. Are they super racist? That might be a problem for them. Why do they all hate women so much?

That's a great question. I don't know. Thank you so much for listening to Saul Bones. We hope you had a lot of fun. Want to thank the people that gave us a review on iTunes this week like Redmond KC's, Spew Bag, Lumpy Space Girl, Chris Co. Kid, Maelan, Marine Extreme, Melcutec, Darren 505, Stockholm X, Tatooine Dweller, Cornbread Guy, what a big margin. Plops that just won't stop. That's fantastic. Case to over, sheels, An 61, Kenjman Franklin, Mountain Thunder, Soapbox Hero 81,, little no, so many others.

Thank you, and a Cobble 75, who proves you don't have to be eloquent or long-winded in your review. Cobble 75 says, I like this. You will like it as well. It is interesting and funny. I like that. Thank you, Cobble. See you the point. So if you wouldn't mind, Hopping over at iTunes, see if it was a review that really helps us out a lot. And maybe share the show with a friend. So many of you have been great about tweeting with the at Sawbones user name and sharing the show with people like Bethany, Trish, Beth, Nick, Zach, Glenis, Lizzie, Alama, Mitch, Alan. Thank you so much for doing that. Please share the show with folks folks that's the only way we grow. We don't advertise. You can also tweet at us at Justin McAroy.

And she's at Sidney McAroy, S-Y-D-N-E-E. And we want to encourage you to listen to all the other great shows on the Maximum Fun Network. Like, judge on Hodgman.com, stop podcasting yourself, Jordan Justgo Bulls. I, one bad mother, Wambam Powell. My brother, my brother, and me. Thank you Sydney. You're welcome. And make sure to join us again next Friday for Sawbones. I'm Justin McRoy. I'm Sydney McRoy. As always, don't drill a hole in your head. Alright! Maximumfund.org

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