Sawbones: A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine - Sawbones: Cinnamon

Episode Date: October 13, 2026

Unfortunately we can't have nice things. Dr. Sydnee and Justin must break the news that there is often lead in cinnamon, and discuss how exactly this has happened. However, they also offer advice for how to still consume it safely, plus, an update about the plague in Russia.Music: "Medicines" by The Taxpayers https://taxpayers.bandcamp.com/Center for Reproductive Rights: https://reproductiverights.org/ Help support this show and unlock bonus content! Become a member at https://maximumfun.org/joinsawbones

Sawbones is a show about medical history, and nothing the hosts say should be taken as medical advice or opinion. It's for fun. Can't you just have fun for an hour and not try to diagnose your mystery boil? We think you've earned it. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy a moment of distraction from that weird growth. You're worth it. Hello, everybody. Welcome to Sawbones. It's Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine. I'm your co-girls. So it was Justin McRoy. And I'm Sydney McRoy. What's wrong, Justin?

I just, you know what? I just don't want to ruin cinnamon for people. Like, and I, it was ruined for me. Ruined for me. And I saw it, and I came and ruined it for you. And now we're going to ruin it for a bunch of people. And I'm just not looking forward to it, man. It's just like, there's not enough good stuff going around.

You got ruined cinnamon. I know. The title of my, like, my notes document for this. episode is just, it's like... It's rough. It's lead and cinnamon in the plague. Yeah. It's, it's just rough all around. But listen, it's, I'm going to give helpful

advice. So, all is not lost. No, all is not lost. It's not even that. I mean, just like, don't even, I'm going to give you some helpful advice. I mean, just like, well, we're going to get there. Short versions, so you've got cinnamon throw it in the garbage. No, no, no, no. Period. No. Short version. No, that is not

that is not the short version. We watched Well, Justin watched a TikTok about lead and cinnamon. Yeah, I saw a TikTok by hydroxide who is a food scientist on TikTok, and you should really follow it because it does fascinating stuff. And it was another post from the lead lady who's a creator on there who finds a lot of lead and stuff. And if you want a fun watch, that TikTok account always goes down smooth, watching the lead lady in home goods. Just finding lead. I have a theory about lead, but that I've developed.

as I've done this research, but I'm going to get to that. It's about boomers? You told them. Well, no, it's not the boomer or lead theory. It's a broader, broader concept of lead. But let's start with cinnamon and lead. So this, this TikTok got us worried. And normally when I hear these kinds of, like, alarmist, like, watch out, this food is

going to kill you. I kind of, I take it with a grain of salt. Not from hydroxide. I understand what you're saying usually, but like, this is a creator. Well, yeah. No, that's what I'm saying. Like, first of all, that, okay, there's merit to this. And secondly, let me look at a little.

a little more into why would we, why would we have a lot of lead and cinnamon? Where is it coming from? What can we do about it? And so I think first we need to understand how we get cinnamon. Oh, wait, hold on. We should mention plague at the end. Yes. And at the very end, I want to talk about several people have asked, like, is there plague in Russia? I've gotten some texts from friends saying, how worried on a scale of one to COVID, how worried do I need to be about the plague in Russia? So we're going to talk about the plague in Russia as well. Okay. I'm using finger quotes, the plague in Russia.

Gotcha. Because there's a question. Anyway, we'll get there. First of all, when are people going to stop using finger quotes in podcasts? That's the thing that you got out. Well, I said it. You said finger quotes.

Yeah. Okay. So then they know that I used them. Yeah. Like I didn't just do, if I had just done it. It's an elegant solution. There's no argument about that. Well, I could do it with emphasis.

And you'd be like, the plague. The plague. Wink. You could say wink after. No, not. wink. Wink is too flirty. Well, because it's still like,

it's still like someone perished. So it's like. It's not fun. No. Or flirty. No. At all.

Cinnamon comes from the inner bark of trees. Did you know that? Did you know it's tree bark? Yeah. I didn't know that. I didn't know if you knew that. I knew that. Yeah.

It's the inner bark. It's not like the outside rough stuff. You can't do anything with that. That's useless. But once you get inside, it's like, oh, hello. Yeah. What's this spicy? Spicy tree.

From the, any trees, from the genus, well, several trees. I shouldn't say any tree. I don't know that that's true. I don't know if it's all trees from this genus, but it's several different trees. From the genus synonymous. One more time?

Cinemomomom. Mm-hmm. Cinamomomomom. And there are different kinds of cinnamon depending on which species of tree you actually get. So I didn't know that. Because as I was reading about like the history of cinnamon and when did we first start using cinnamon,

there's kind of a debate because it depends on what you consider the true cinnamon to be. because there is the kind of cinnamon that is most common here in the U.S., which comes originally from China. And that is like, first of all, it's harder cinnamon, like the sticks harder, and it's a stronger flavor.

And then there's the cinnamon that primarily comes from like Sri Lanka, and it's a more crumbly cinnamon. Like you can actually just break it, and it also has a milder flavor. So I don't know what you consider the true cinnamon. The true cinnamon is what's in the, cinnamon toast crunch, everything, I guess,

it's just in relation to that, right? I would say that's probably the one that's originally from China. Now, there are a lot of countries now that produce cinnamon that grow the trees and process and produce cinnamon. It's not just those two, many countries. But if you taste cinnamon somewhere else and you think, oh, this is not the cinnamon I'm used to, could be that it's a different species of cinnamon tree. The word cinnamon, I thought this was interesting.

It depends on like it's evolved over time because cinnamon is a very ancient spice. Like we've been using it for thousands of years. So the name of cinnamon has evolved. The word cinnamon itself comes from English in the 15th century. It's from the ancient Greek like Kinamon, which comes from the Latin. And then the Greek was borrowed from a Phoenician word, which was similar to a Hebrew word, for Kinaman. You enjoy the name of cinnamon?

Thank the Phoenicians. That's from a spaceship. It's interesting because, like, if you get down into the different kinds of cinnamon, there's a word Cassia that's one of the kinds, and it comes from to strip off bark. And there's another one, Canal, which is because it's a tube, like Kana. So there are all these different. We've been describing cinnamon for a long time.

It's just like, do you guys know about cinnamon? We have lots of words for cinnamon. It's a great word, by the way. Isn't it a good word? Yeah, it is. It is a very good word. Yeah. And it sounds like what it tastes like.

Do you think? Cinnamon? Yeah, cinnamon. Cinnamon. You're right. It does. Doesn't it? I hate to ruin it.

I hate to ruin it. I hate to ruin it. I hate to ruin it because it's a good word. It's been used since antiquity. Like I said, ancient China, Egypt, Greece, Rome, India, Sri Lanka. Everywhere has uses for cinnamon. It was prized. You could give it as a gift to a monarch.

Oh. It was worth. A king's gift. Lots of money. I kept coming across quotes from Pliny the Elder. My man. Plenty. We haven't talked about him in a while.

It's been a bit. As I was reading about cinnamon. But the main thing Pliny talked about was cinnamon is, one, how expensive it was. Because I kept, like, usually Pliny will give us some weird medical uses. Not this time. No. Oh, they kill you. Three for a dollar.

That was his whole thing. Yeah, he was just like cinnamon is so wildly expensive. And then he wrote about places where the cinnamon trees. grow and like you can smell the cinnamon wafting from like miles off the coast. And then he talked about he had a lot of problems with people adding stuff to wine to change the flavor. And so he complained about like cinnamon's put in wine. Not even a health issue at that point. No. He's just like stop putting like I love the cinnamon, but please stop putting it in wine. Also it's so expensive. Please, we can't afford it. He was used for embalming in ancient Egypt.

And it was as it spread across the world, it became a feature in like there was a certain sauce. that was made with cinnamon that was prized all over like medieval tables if you could get it. I mean, obviously, it was associated with wealth and power and then became something that was commonplace as it was more widely available because, you know, it's delicious. Sure. And obviously cinnamon, I think if you have, I always think about like the spices we had when we first got married, like before we had developed our spice cabinet drawer, whatever. You got about one spice salt.

Yeah. Then pepper. You got by third spice. What's the third one? I mean, I think cinnamon is high up on the list. Like, I probably would have argued back then for like a garlic. We're not power like a garlic salt. Well, cinnamon.

Well, then it's cinnamon. Well, I mean, well, it's sugar, but that's different. That's not a spice. King of flavor. MSG. I think I might need MSG more than cinnamon, but it'd be close. We, I use MSG. Back then, I wouldn't have.

I didn't know yet. I didn't, I hadn't learned about MSG. But, anyway. I can make a case for garlic powder too. Garlic powder, yeah. And then if you want to circumvent literally all of it, get yourself the biggest jar of lemon pepper possible and just go for it. Yeah, because maybe your children will just put that on everything.

Our children doesn't matter. You can cook whatever you want to, but if you want to be like, our dirt bag kids, just get the biggest jar of lorries, you can stuff. You could get some five spice. That's got seven in it. Take the lid with the shaker lid, right? Take the shaker lid. Throw that in the garbage.

You're not going to need that anymore. They're going to pour. Just dump it. And here's the worst part about it, gang. As a parent, you're watching the kid put pounds of lemon pepper on something. And in my head, I'm like, say something. Do something. There's got to be something you can say that's logical about why they have to stop.

This can't be right. And then I'm wracking my brain like, stop using so much lemon pepper. They're like, why? I'm like, because. You told us at one point, I don't know. We didn't talk about this in the moment. But at one point, you said, stop using so much lemon pepper. You're going to blow out your palate.

Maybe it's true. That is a fear, right? I guess. I don't know. I was like, I can't even feel this. It's one of those moments. If there are kids listening, I'm going to give you a little inside scoop to what's happening with your, maybe with your.

parents sometimes. It was one of those moments where we try to be a united front. Like if you're saying something, I'm trying to back you so that, you know, so that like we're consistent. We have the same rules and expectations. And I expect the same from you. But you said that. And I had this moment of, how do I co-sign that? Like, yes, girls, it's very important that you don't blow out your palate with lemon. I mean, I do think, I think there's merit to like, anyway, doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Okay. So, cinnamon. obviously well-known now, used widely, and also has some not medical but popular medical, I would say, applications in the sense that people use it as a supplement or take it for medicinal purposes, even though it's not something, and I want to highlight that. Right now, there is no evidence that suggests you need cinnamon in your diet.

previously we didn't think it was bad for you now the lead thing caused that in a question but cinnamon itself is it's fine it's neither good nor bad it's fine if you like it eat it if you don't don't but there are there are studies that have like looked at its anti-inflammatory effects that it could help with stabilizing blood sugar so like you'll find those studies out there they do exist but none of this has been put into you know large trials where we give this many humans this much cinnamon and these humans don't get cinnamon and then we compare blood sugar. Nobody's done any of that. So my point is you don't need to eat cinnamon. You don't need it. Don't need it. So how is lead getting into cinnamon? Well, first of all, and this is where the whole thing started to get really concerning for me,

heavy metals like lead are naturally occurring in the earth, right? They're in the earth's crust. They're just in the dirt. For free. Well. Nice planet. Yeah. I mean, if you, yeah, that's true.

I mean, if you're looking for heavy metals, the earth will provide. So anything that grows from the earth or takes up groundwater from the earth is going to contain trace amounts of heavy metals. And obviously that's going to vary from place to place. It's going to depend on how much, what is the concentration of heavy metals in the soil, in the area where the trees are growing, or where the water is sour. from. And it also depends on the plant. Cinnamon trees have to grow for at least 10 years before their bark is harvestable. So the issue with that is that's 10 years that the tree is taking up stuff from the soil before you're actually going to shear off the bark and eat it, which means it's going to perhaps take up more of whatever is in the soil, right? It also,

because the process, like you harvest the bark in long, thin sheets, and then like it rolls up into the cannula shape that we're so familiar with as it dries, and then you chop it into the segments that, you know, if you buy the sticks. And then obviously from there it can be ground. But all of this, the drying process can concentrate anything that's present in the cinnamon even further. So this whole process, part, and everything I'm talking about is just naturally what's happening to the cinnamon. This is not something that someone is doing. This is just a natural hazard of eating things from the earth. It takes up stuff from the earth. There's other stuff happening. Yes, we're going to get into the other stuff. But this is just the natural part. And this is

true for all heavy metals and it's true for all things that grow from the earth. So it's not just cinnamon, but there's some specific things that make cinnamon perhaps more dangerous. One, in addition to everything I've mentioned, is that the regulations on like checking soil levels for lead and groundwater for lead vary from country to country. So if we're importing our cinnamon, we don't necessarily have as much insight into what's in. Yes. If most of our cinnamon is coming from Indonesia, Sri Lanka, and Vietnam, that's where most in the U.S. comes from. I mentioned that the stuff that originated in China is what you're most familiar with flavor-wise. but that's not where it's grown now. But anyway, we don't know what their standards are

for how much of this stuff can be in soil that you're growing trees in that you're then going to eat food from. Right. Okay. But that is not the only way that lead is getting into our cinnamon. And I think this is the more concerning part.

This other thing is just going to happen. And we can monitor it. We can try to, you know, grow in soils that are free from heavy metals. There are ways to remediate soils, certainly. but this is just going to keep happening. What is the bigger concern? And I'm going to talk to you about that.

But first we've got to go to the billing department. Let's go. The medicines. The medicines that Eskilet macabre for the mouth. Sid, I was already concerned about the lead in the groundwater going into the cinnamon, but you say there's even more reason for alarm. Well, that's, yes. Because as I was reading this, I had this thought, like, maybe this is the earth fighting back. Maybe lead is the earth fighting.

The earth is like. Earth's defense mechanism. Yes, we're so tired of you humans. You do so much dumb stuff. Right. Gaia is decided to reclaim the planet. Yeah, by poisoning us with lead because we're, I don't know, because we won't take better care of the earth. Maybe you're not saying about lead as I was doing this research. That doesn't matter.

That's not evidence-based. That statement isn't evidence-based. This is conjecture. Okay. I don't even know if I stand by it. I'm just saying I had the thought. We could contemplate it. You were like, I had the thought, I got to record this on a podcast.

Let me skip behind this. It feels like an M. Night Shyamuan movie that I just came up with. Yeah, that you gave away for free, you mean to say? I don't think he listens. So the other way that Lay can get it in products is more concerning. In October of 2023, the North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services noticed we routinely check kids for lead in their blood. This is part of, you know, there are certain intervals where your kid will come in for their well-child exam and we'll say, eh, we've got to check them for lead. This is common because lead poisoning in children is specifically dangerous because of the long-term effects that can have on growth and development.

And because we have this history in the U.S. of having used lead-based paints in houses for a long time, we don't do that anymore. But if your house was built prior to 1976, it's something like that. Let's not. If your house is old, it could have lead paint in it. And the concern is that kids will eat paint chips because kids will put anything in their mess. mouth. So we test kids for lead. Anyway, they noticed that there was an increase in cases of lead poisoning. And initially, a lot of these can be asymptomatic. This is why we screen for lead, is that you won't necessarily know you have lead poisoning when you first start to be poisoned

by lead. And they were able to trace this back to applesauce packages that had cinnamon in them. So the little squeezy pouches of cinnamon applesauce, you know, we had those back in the day. They were contaminated with lead specifically a chromium form, lead chromate. And the question was, where in the world did this come from? How are all these applesauce packages? Like, why do they have so much? And we're also talking about, to give you an idea, the pouches had between 2,270 and 5,110 parts per million lead in the cinnamon.

That's thousands of times higher than the U.S. threshold. So the point is they had a massive amount of lead. A lot of lead. Yes. They had to do widespread testing. There were, I think, 566 total cases that they found. Now, Sid, how could such a terrible accident like this occur to where there would be lead in the cinnamon? Well, after they did some digging onto the specific brands of applesauce, which all of these have been recalled, by the way,

that were contaminated, what they believed happened was economically motivated adulteration, which in the spice trade, and I think in a lot of food regulation, they have a, they say it's EMA. So they actually, this is so common that we have to have an abbreviation for it. It was a M.A. It's fraud. It was fraud. It was fraud.

So what they think was happening is that lead chromate was specifically being introduced as an additive into the cinnamon that was then sold to the applesauce packaging. company to make the cinnamon apple sauce. And it was for the color. This feels so as you as you like trace this back, the idea that we would do this to make sure the cinnamon was the right color feels so small. It's like terrifying. But we're also talking about I mean it's, you know, in a global economy, people are under pressure to, they make very little money for doing very dangerous, difficult work and they're under pressure to make enough to support, you know, I mean, it's all it's all fraught. But the point is, lead chromate, which is known as chrome yellow, because artists use it

in paint, can be added to spices or whatever you want to make look more flavorful. I guess traditionally this has been done in turmeric. Often could be contaminated with lead chromate because it's yellow. But termic, you're maybe using it, you know, that's one of those spices that if you see in a recipe, you got to check to make sure you have. have it. Send them in your region for every day. I could take a little bit of lead with my turmeric. That's no big deal. What was concerning to me, though, about it is that, I mean, even if we just talk about turmeric for a second, that is another one that people take as a supplement or a health aid or believe has medicinal properties. And so it may lead you to

consume extra, is my point. These are reasons why you might be taking in more. Right. Right. So anyway, yeah, so we think that there are cases where cinnamon, aside from the natural contamination that cinnamon has from the earth with lead or can have, it depends on where it's grown and, you know, conditions. There's also adulteration happening where lead chromate is being added to cinnamon so that it looks better and you'll be more likely to buy it. And I should say this is primarily powdered cinnamon now that we're concerned about. The cinnamon sticks are just going to contain the lead that the earth had to offer. The cinnamon powder is where you can get the adulteration, right? Right, I got you. Okay.

So the reason I'm calling this distinction, I want to call attention to it, is that our first thought was just by cinnamon sticks, which are still possibly going to contain some lead. A little bit of light. But the cinnamon powder was where you really can get into trouble because that leaves open the opportunity to adulterate it further. Now, in terms of how much lead can you have in spices? I would guess no. There are no federal limits. The federal government doesn't, like, it doesn't say, like, how much lead you can have in spice. We should just say zero, like, no lead.

A lot of the policing is we trust the companies to test it themselves. Yeah, man, that is a recipe for success. Yeah. A lot of the policing is self-policing. Because we don't want to overregulate these companies. They're just trying to make money. He's capitalism. Now, Sydney, you were just saying a minute ago how hard it is for these people.

And you were saying it's fine for them who chuck some lead in there. I'm talking about the companies now. I'm saying that I don't want to sit here and nothing is black and white. It is never okay to put lead in cinnamon. But I don't want to pin every person in that chain as a criminal because there are a lot of different pressures. I mean, it's complicated. And I'm in the chain because I'm going to eat the cinnamon. Did you watch the good place?

nothing is purely good or bad. We can't. That's where you're doing that? That sitcom the good place? Oh, no. I'm just, I'm useful. Wow, Sid? You're in your 40s.

I mean, not to tell us out of school, but I've been getting that for a little bit. I'm saying it's a useful way of thinking about things. There's no safe. The Sith only deal in absolutes. That's like the 80s, you know? How much lead is safe to consume, Justin? None. None.

There's no safe. We should not be consuming lead. There's no safe amount. Certainly there are amounts that are not. going to kill you and amounts that over time could kill you. But there's like that's like a lot of stuff though. And it does. It accumulates.

So our body holds on to it and stores it. So if you're routinely being exposed to lead, you can over time develop lasting damage. Listen, if my body's holding on a lead, what am I doing all these charcoal treatments on the bottoms of my feet then? How do I get the lid? Why are you doing that? I'm trying to get the toxins out. Why are you doing that? That's one of the main ones I'm concerned for.

So as I mentioned, just a little. a little aside on lead poisoning. If you are exposed to lead, you won't know. That's why we do the routine testing in children. And this is not, by the way, unless you're somebody out there who's just like chugging bottles of cinnamon every day, in which case, you might want to ask your health care provider about checking a lead level. That would be reasonable. You're talking about a symptomatic case of lead poisoning, though, right? Yes. If, yes, if you have lead poisoning and it is to the extreme where you will have symptoms, in children, it's concerning because, like, I said, it can lead to delays, like developmental delays and learning difficulties, weight loss,

and then things that are more acutely distressing, like vomiting and constipation and abdominal pain. It is dangerous for babies, of course, everything that I've just mentioned is worse for babies. And in adults, you can see things like high blood pressure, joint muscle pain, headache, abdominal pain, mood disorders, difficulty with memory or concentration. It can lead to problems with fertility. So obviously, lead is bad in humans. We should not consume lead, period. Now, consumer reports two years ago did a very helpful investigation for us so that I can tell you exactly where the lead is in cinnamon.

The Consumer Reports scientists tested 36 cinnamon powders to see, based on our understanding of how much lead, anything above one part per mill. million is, that's the level that New York State uses because not every state has regulations about lead. New York State uses one part per million. So they basically looked at 36 different cinnamon powders to see which ones have the most lead. And what came out of that was a list of, I mean, Justin's looking at it with me right now, there's 12 that you should never use. I don't have.

Because they all had over one part per million. One, paras had 3.52 parts per million. That's a lot. Lead. I don't love it. Yes. I recognized one of them, Bodia. We have bought that before.

Yeah. We don't have it currently. We also had Ronnie brand, but we used that for like Indian spices. Yeah. Well, anything that, this can be a concern for anything that might need. Yes. That might have cinnamon in it or might have that color. I mean, because you can see five spice powders were on here too because they contain cinnamon.

Oh, okay. Yeah. It is okay to use, like, the majority of, of them were in this okay to use, including McCormick, which I think is probably the most frequent cinnamon and like I see people buy off the shelf, McCormick cinnamon. I'd say that one. Simply organic, I think is the generic Walmart one. And this consumer reports, by the way, if you just look up consumer reports, lead, test it, whatever. This is all free online. I didn't pay for this report. Kirkland is representing, although I will say it's on the high end. Yeah, there's the great value ground cinnamon, too. Great value ground cinnamon. Thank you. Yeah. So there's quite a few in there. And then the best to use, I didn't, I don't think we've ever bought any of these. There are a couple from Whole Foods that are the best.

If you want to get, like, Morton and Bassett. You want to get pretty funky with it. Like, I don't know. I like a little bit, you know, I feel like a little bit of lead. I'm used to it. The absolute lowest was 365 Whole Foods Market, Organic Ground Cinnamon, 0.02 parts per million. That's, you know what that is also, folks? This is a good representation of privilege. It is. It's expensive. I guarantee all of these low lead ones are the priceiest in the market.

Don't let the word organic mislead you when it comes to this lead issue. There are organic ones all up and down the chart. So organic does not. I mean, this one is organic and is safer, but there are ones that are organic that aren't. And the consumer reports, if you check out the thing, it also tells you how much of it you can then eat safely based on the amount of lead. So, like, you could have 16 teaspoons of this, the best one, daily, 16 teaspoons of cinnamon powder daily. Whereas when you get into the, obviously, they don't do that for the don't use. They say just don't use it.

Okay. So for the great value, it says can use up to one quarter teaspoon daily. Yes. What is the life you're leading where you're like, do you want another cinnamon muffin? Do you want another stinker doodle? Like, I shouldn't. I've had a quarter teaspoon of cinnamon already. I know.

I gotta say no. But see, that's what should be a little concerning about all this. Yeah, a little bit. Maybe just don't put lead in the stuff, brother. Well, and that's what I was thinking about. Don't put this on me. I know we have that McCormick cinnamon in our cabinet right now, and we can use up to a teaspoon daily. That's each of us could eat a teaspoon of this daily and not go over a safe lead level.

But then I start thinking about when you're baking, how much tea. I mean, like when I make my zucchini bread, I use a lot of cinnamon in there. And I start worrying about. But why don't I have to worry about lead at all? Just don't put lead in it, gang? Well, help me out. Please. I mean, yes.

Ideally, we would demand this. Like, we would have regulations on a government-wide level that would keep the lead out of our food. Because, again, anything that might need coloring, you could find this contaminant in it. And we don't, I mean, cinnamon was highlighted because of this applesauce pouch incident. Yes. But this could certainly be true for other spices or other food products. And nobody's minding the store, so to speak. I mean, we're trusting companies to regulate themselves.

Consumer reports, I think, reached out to all of these companies. And some of them said, we do our own testing. We're not worried about yours. It did lead to some recalls, I will say, because this was two years ago when they issued this report. But these sentiments are still out on the shelves. So this is actually something that's worth looking into. before you buy cinnamon, I would, again, just because it's more expensive or organic does not necessarily mean it's safer. Some of the brands that were the highest lead levels were actually like kind of

small market sort of bespoke products. So anyway, and at cinnamon, you don't need it as a supplement. There's no need, yeah. If you don't, yeah, if it's not already in the food you're eating, don't add extra cinnamon. It's not, there's no health benefit that we know of and there could be a detriment. Briefly, I wanted to talk about this thing with the plague in Russia. Okay. Okay. Because there was a researcher, a 28-year-old laboratory technician, Daria Sheplova,

who was working at an anti-plague institute in Siberia in the town of Shalikov, who died after being diagnosed with a pneumonia of unknown origin. Now, I think it is important, and this is as of the time of recording this episode, which is on the 12th, October 12th. We do not have confirmation that it is plague. Okay. Now, all of this is difficult to untangle because we're trusting on the Russian state media and the people who handle infectious diseases in Russia to tell us what's happening. Yeah. So we don't know.

She worked at an anti-plague institute. She specifically did work on finding, like, different treatments. And, I mean, she had published work on treatments for the plague. It is very likely that she was working with the plague. So to think that she got a very terrible pneumonia at a young age, she was healthy otherwise and then died very quickly, it could be pneumonic plague. That is certainly, and initially it was reported that we know she broke a test tube, got pneumonic plague and died. and that 200 people were in quarantine. It's not clear that any of, I don't know.

And that was reported. As of yesterday's reporting, the Russian authorities are saying, everybody calm down. We tested her for everything that she was working with at the lab, and it was all negative, which would mean that she was negative for plague because we know she was working with plague. But they didn't say that specifically.

It was not plague. That statement has not been issued. The Russians have a secret laser that melts our brains. Like, who knows? Yersinia pestis is the bacteria we're talking about. It can cause different forms of plague, most famously bubonic plague, where you get the big swollen lymph nodes of boobos and, you know, we think of the black death. Classic. Classics all about this stuff. Pneumonic is actually the worst form. It's the pneumonia. When I say pneumonic, I'm talking like pneumonia plague.

A lung infection with ursinia pestis, it absolutely can be deadly if untreated often is. Almost 100% deadly if untreated. It is contagious, but it's much less contagious than, let's say, you know, measles or less contagious than COVID. For comparison, the R not, meaning how many people will a person with the plague likely infect with the plague through droplets? It's, you know, okay, droplet spread is how you catch it. 1.3 is the R not for pneumonic plague, meaning I am likely to infect 1.3 people. By comparison, measles, if you have measles, you're probably going to give it to anywhere

from 12 to 18 people. And with COVID, the original strains were probably the mean was around three. And with the later strains, like the Omicron variant, maybe as many as four, or I mean as many as nine people that you could, in fact. So much less contagious. And we have antibiotics that cure plague now. During the time of the Black Death, they certainly did not. No. Now, common antibiotics like Gentimicin, doxycycline, fluoroquin, as long as you get to people quickly, the problem is if you wait to treat them, it can be.

be fatal, absolutely. But if you get to them with antibiotics within the first 24 hours, they should be okay. Very high, very high recovery rates. We have tests for the plague. We know the plague. We can treat the plague. Very different than COVID. COVID, we didn't know what it was. We didn't know how to test for it. We didn't know how to treat it. We can't have antibiotics for it because it's not a bacteria. This is not COVID. I think that the thing that concerns me most about this whole episode is that we really have no idea what exactly happened. And we probably won't know, at least not for a long time, because our relationship with other countries

is so degraded at this point. I mean, already getting the truth out of Russia, I think could have been difficult. Russia's secretive. They don't want us to know what's happening. But also the science communities have been purposefully dismantled, et cetera, et cetera. And so the lack of communication and coordination on a global scale, certainly we should have learned from COVID impacts us all.

So right now, this is not COVID. Nobody lose sleep over the plague in Russia, but it does remind us why hopefully we can rebuild the communication pathways globally between scientists at some point so that this information will be freely shared. And then aid can be offered support. Yeah. And we can control these infections before they spread.

Like we could tell them like, hey, did you all hear about cinnamon? And they'd be like, that's crazy. Thank you all for letting us know. We'll send them our consumer reports study on cinnamon, and they tell us what happened with the plague. Was it the plague? Thank you so much for listening to Sawbones,

a marital tour of misguided medicine. Thank you, the taxpayers for the use of their song, Medicines, as the intro and outro of our program. I have a favor to ask if you are listening to this on the week it comes out, let's say. to be carving a pumpkin for the Huntington Children's Museum. If you would like to support me in that endeavor, if you will go to givebutter.com slash hc.m.

Vip's 26. You're going to find Justin McRoy there, and I'm trying to be all these other people, and I'll be humiliated if I don't pull it off. So please go to givebutter.com slash HCMVIPs 26. It shows a number of supporters, save you if you can give just like a buck or two. It supports the museum and it makes me look like a cool dude.

You are a cool dude. Thanks, sir. And you're going to carve a cool pumpkin. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time, my name is Justin McRoy. I'm Sidney McRoehl. And as always, don't draw a hole in your head. Maximum Fun.

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