Sawbones: A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine - Sawbones: Colonoscopy

Episode Date: January 6, 2026

In honor of Justin's first colonoscopy, Dr. Sydnee goes through the history of looking inside the colon. From Pompei to the Light Conductor to the more flexible tubes today, humans have always been curious to see just what's going on up there.Music: "Medicines" by The Taxpayers https://taxpayers.bandcamp.com/Immigrant Defenders Law Center: https://www.immdef.org/

Sawbones is a show about medical history, and nothing the hosts say should be taken as medical advice or opinion. It's for fun. Can't you just have fun for an hour and not try to diagnose your mystery boil? We think you've earned it. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy a moment of distraction from that weird growth. You're worth it. All right. Sorry is about some books.

One, two, one, two, three, four. We came across a pharmacy with its windows blasted out. Pushed on through the broken glass and had ourselves a look around. The medicines, the medicines, the Estabell and McCormack. For the mouth Hello, everybody, and welcome to Sawbones, a marital tour of misguided medicine. I'm your co-host, Justin McElroy.

And I'm Sidney McElroy. The drama, Sydney, simply, couldn't be higher. Yeah, you're having an intense day. America's favorite patient, Justin T. McElroy, is going under the knife. Yeah, well, okay, could we clarify, Justin, you're not going under the knife. Under the camera? Yeah. Yeah. Or, well...

Inside. Around the camera. You're going around... You're going to envelop the camera. I've become the camera. Yeah. What are you having done tomorrow, Justin? Tomorrow I'm having a routine colonoscopy, my first ever. That's right. Boy, I'm on tenter hooks.

A screening colonoscopy. Yeah. Yeah. In honor of that, I thought that would make a great episode. Yeah. How did we... If you really think about it, from a like a bird's eye view at some point in history somebody went man it'd be easier if we

could just put a camera up there yeah that's true and then we did yeah uh and that's kind of wild that it is kind of wild it is easier you got to love the ingenuity it does kind of seem like a wish or something like a a dream that you would make someday i'll be able to get in there and really look around um yeah but i know i'm i'm having it done i mean my colonoscopy is really an honor of James Fanderbeek, who had, you know, we heard about James during the fundraiser that they had to raise awareness of prostate cancer. And they, one of the big things that they hit in there was how when you hit 45, you know, that's something you need to look at. So I, I, you know what, just inspired by the moment, by James, by Mr. Vanderbeek, I scheduled it. Yeah, well, and you had, you were just about to turn 45 at the time, so it was perfect.

No, and we're going to, I'm going to talk with the history of colonoscopy, and then maybe after your experience tomorrow, we could do a follow-up where you sort of walk our listeners through. That's the plan. It's like maybe a two-parter. And you can talk about what today, well, I'm really starting yesterday, what the prep for a colonoscopy looks like, feels like, and what the procedure itself, what that experience is like. But I wanted to go ahead and say right at the top of the episode that it is important to remember that colon cancer screening for most individuals starts at age 45. That's for like average risk. Now there are some different conditions or family history that may put you at higher risk, in which case you may need screening earlier or more frequently. But I would encourage you to talk to your primary care provider about what kind of screening would be best for you when you need it, how frequent. you need to repeat it because it's an incredibly important thing and it the 45 year old

recommendation is I mean in the big picture relatively new when I was first training in medicine it didn't the recommendation was not till 50 so that ticked down five years is still kind of fresh lucky me I'm kind of fresh too to this whole whole thing as I was reading about colonoscopies the the term colonoscopy which a lot of a lot of a lot of This stuff comes from Greek, and I thought this was just really kind of interesting to me. So it sounds like it's from oscopy, which is, like, looking into or examining, and then colon, which, you know, is your colon. It's your large intestine, the bottom part of your bowel. And that seems to make sense, right, looking into your colon.

Yeah. There you go. because of the way it's constructed, the term colonoscopy, directly translated, it actually means, like, examination of the hill. Oh. Looking into the hill. Inside the hill. Looking in the hill. Inside the hill.

That was just interesting. All of our, all of our. Inside the piles. I read this. All of our medical, like, terminology that includes colon, the way, not all, but for the most part, the way we construct it. It's all the hill instead. The hill rather than it. So we just messed it up a long time ago and just ran with it.

It makes sense now. Oskopi generally, we think we're putting a camera somewhere. But in a camera somewhere. Yeah. And then that first word will tell you where. No problem. So there you go. We have evidence like all the way back to Pompeii of devices that people tried to create to look inside the rectum.

Awesome. Now. That's so long ago. For real. Yeah. Now, those early attempts... You don't mean the release of the single Pompeii by the band Bastille, right? No, no, no.

You mean the very unpleasant volcano situation. Yes. Like, we know that since ancient times, humans have had a desire to peer inside the rectum and see what's up there. We want to see everything, but that is right there. It seems like an unknown. We can't get up there ourselves, right? No, we can't get up there. And we, it's hard to look inside.

I would say these early attempts would be more akin to what we now think of anoscopy, which is when we just look, I mean, we can do that in the, like in the clinic. We don't need to take you to a hospital. In the anus rather than going deeper. Yeah, you just go right, just right inside. And you can do that. Like, hemorrhoids would be a reason why we might do that in the office to take a closer look and see if there's hemorrhoids in there or what the hemorrhoids are up to or what they're doing.

I've been enjoying an unrelated bout of those. actually this week just to add a little bit of well it maybe it was unrelated to begin with yeah well no yes yeah thank you I was I guess I was saying the colonoscopy is unrelated to the yes hemorrhoids yes is what I mean the hemorrhoids maybe in part due to the preparations for the colonoscopy which is a really beautiful oral boros I'm eating my own tail Sydney yeah I didn't want to tell you that that they may make things uncomfortable for a bit I mean you were going to do it and I wanted you to do it and I wanted you to do it and why, you know. Luckily with the power of preparation H, I am always ready to soothe and comfort those irritating anal issues. I want to show you, Justin, a picture as I'm talking about the first big advance that was made towards what we think of as a colonoscopy now comes from the late 1700s by Philip Bazzini, who is a German doctor. Bazzini. And he made what was called the light conductor or leaked leaked lighter.

And I just, I thought it was worth you taking a little peek. Yeah. Yeah. At the leaked lighter. Okay. How would you describe? Oh, my gosh. It's very futuristic for something from the 1700s.

It is. It looks like if you were to give. a... It looks like a dollach. It does kind of look like a doll. Like, it looks kind of like if you had a trophy for, like a modernist trophy for fishing

that looked like a black bass emerging from the ground, grabbing for like a silver sphere above its mouth and then protruding from its back at its dorsal is just a like a seven inch long steel probe. Probe.

Yeah. Yeah. That's, I think that's a good description. It probably has more to do. It looks more like a screwdriver emanating from this marble. Well, I was thinking of the Daleks. It's a little Not its plunger, but the other one. So this

tube had mirrors and lenses to like take light from the tube and direct it into the rectum. So, you know, refraction. Like a kaleidoscope. Well, I mean, I'm assuming that wasn't what you were going for. There are also different attachments

that you could put on the I'm assuming the probe piece, and then you could make it fit in different orifices. So this wasn't exclusively for rectal use. But there was a tip for that. There was a tip for that. There's a tip for that. But it could also be used to look in the ear or the urethro. I know what order I'm going for.

Whatever holes you need to probe. I thought the light source for a lot of these early attempts would have been a candle. Nice. And or as we move forward, maybe an oil lamp. Got a match, I know you, you're shivering. No, but the idea of, can you imagine the first patient that he tried to explain this to. Okay, do you see this thing I'm holding? Trust me.

I would like to insert it into your butt. Gets better. And I know that there's a candle really close to it. And I understand that that's concerning. And the only lube we have is probably whale blubber or whatever, so let's go. It said that his device faced skepticism, which I mean, yeah, yeah. But again. Everybody just clamped up all the idea of we need to look in here and we need a light to do it and we need some sort of probe.

It's arguable. He's moving us forward, moving science forward, right? Yeah. It doesn't look like, I'll say if you look at the device, it doesn't look. like the one he would say like this is it it's done it looks like the one he'd be like not like not exactly this obviously you know but like sort of like this well and i also because it is sort of like a solid probe type thing i'm not sure how you're getting the best visualization unless you're trying to look around it and so i'm not sure either right and so we're the mirrors and

the light the mirrors and the light but what it what it led to was i think the kind of natural evolution of this, Dr. Antonin-Jean Desormot, a French physician, who made an open tube version. That was like the next evolution. And that makes total sense because now once you've like, once you've sort of opened everything up, now you can look through it,

through the hole that you've created and see the inside of the rectum and beyond. And so you can see where that. would be a better product, so to speak. Sure. I mean, you're definitely, let's get this right the first time. That's my motto. He did not use a candle for this design.

It was a lamp fueled by alcohol and turpentine, which feels, again, it all feels very dicey. It's just like there's a lot of, like, flammable substances. Flammable, close to some really sensitive places, like, maybe under pressure, the contents, I don't know. We're really taking a lot of gambols down there, just for a peak, just for one little peak that you know is not going to be that great. But this was obviously superior in the sense that, one, it has the open tube design, and then two, the candle would have been subject to perhaps a gust of air. A piff. From wherever that gust may come. Wherever it might come from.

And obviously, this was better for that reason. And it does. and it wouldn't make a big fireball like you might be thinking due to the methane. It don't work like that. No. Larendia Elementary School. No.

You could use a little condenser lens in this one to try to like focus the light on a certain spot. So if it's like that's the thing I'm trying to look at, but also minimize just like heat, like injury from the light. You know, if you can focus it just on the one thing you're trying to look at. And it was a little bit more flexible and easier to move. So we're moving to the right, like we're starting to see what do we need this thing to be? If our goal is to look deeper, one, it's got to be longer and it's going to have to be flexible.

Two, it's got to have a light, right? It's got to be lit up. And we need a light source that as we go further in, it can't just be at the opening. Yeah. Because, you know, it's not going to go all the way down there. It's not. sorry look

so how are we going to what are we going to how are we going to see that direct visualization as we go deeper into the rectum and so it's these early

kind of prototypes are helpful because it starts to elucidate the problems like what are we trying to solve for and with a lot

of medical advances our ability to move that technology forward is just sort of like tied up in our technological advances as a society right

yeah I mean there's other things like about a, like the image of the microchip, for example, like how much of modern medical technology is tied to that development. And that development can't happen until the microchip is developed. Exactly. Exactly. And I mean, in this case, what we need are our fiber optics, really. I mean, that's the next thing that's going to move us forward. Because until then, and there were a lot of these, like a series of lenses and condensers constructed along a more

flexible tube to try to like pass that light all the way to where we're going. And then You have to look all the way down there, and then maybe the image gets, you know, passed back through those mirrors. But again, now we're building something that's incredibly complex on a tiny scale. It would be very difficult, right? There's also evolutionary factors to consider, I mean, in a few thousand years, we may have evolved large, spacious, colon's, large, vast buttholes that are very easy to get inside and to look around, you know, where we wouldn't have needed all of this technology. We may have evolved to have larger, easy to look in buttholes. Do you think now or are you proposing that's the future? I'm saying if in future generations may look back and say, but why, Mother, why did we need all of this colonoscopy?

Why didn't they just stick their head in there into the giant butts and look around? And they say, well, child, back then they didn't have our large, spacious ane to be able to look at just like have a butcher's. I can see some diagnostic advantages. to that. Like, as a physician, there's definitely aspects of my job that would be easier. And literally, no, the case. Were that the case? No, no. I would, I would posit that there's a few things. I feel like I pretty soon should say that I am not allowed to eat food today. And I just keep having a bunch of diuretics. So I'm in a bit of a headspace. And before, I think it's really important as we move forward in history, one of the big limitations, like beyond, obviously, we've kind of defined the problem. It's got to be longer. And so it has. to be flexible. It has to have a light. It has to have a way of sending those images back to

the person, you know, who's performing the procedure. You need to do all that. And in order for it to be, because we are talking about your colonoscopy as a screening tool. Yes. Presumably, there's nothing wrong. We don't know of anything wrong, right? You're not doing it because you went in and said, ouch, doctor, have a problem. Yes. We're doing it because it's a good screening tool. Well, to be a good screening tool, it has to be better than these early versions. Sure, yeah. You know, for a few reasons.

Otherwise, you're going to get a bunch of false positives and there's no point. And so I want to, I want to talk about that like bar, that, that higher bar that you have to meet for a screening tool. But before we do that, Justin, we've got to go to the billing department. Let's go. The medicines, the medicines that Escal lit macabre for the mouth. Okay, we're back. I think that this is an important.

point to drive home because this concept branches into a lot of different areas of medicine, especially when it comes to prevention. What concept is that? The idea that if something is going to be used as a screening tool, one, you've got to think about risk and benefit. So we are going to be doing colonoscopies on a lot of presumably healthy individuals, and we're going to do them across a wide swath of the population. So you want to reduce risk as much as possible, right?

because it's one thing if you're sick and we're giving you a medicine that maybe has some side effects, but also the medicine is necessary for your survival, the risk-benefit ratio is different than in a screening test where you're fine right now, as far as we know. And so we want a screening test. You keep adding that, like I'm not your husband and I'm rather just like some guy in a textbook that you're talking about. Well, I mean, you're the example. As far as we know, you do these big waggly eyebrows. No, I'm just saying like that when you're doing a screening test, you're not doing it knowing there's a problem or even necessarily suspicious that there's a problem. Right.

Most people aren't going to have a problem. You're running the numbers. Right. And so that that procedure that we're developing has to get to a point where it is, one, safe enough to do this. And then two can pick up diagnoses on a level that will make sense. So we need it to see things in the colon that we can act on and do something about and actually impact your quality or quantity of life, right? Useful information, not just like, oh, interesting. Exactly.

Not trivia. Exactly. And I think all of this, the point I wanted to get to is all of this is really important when we talk about any sort of preventive, you know, health measure like vaccines plays into this too. You know, vaccines are given, again, to presumably. healthy individuals, a wide swath of the population, which is why there's some of the most vigorously tested, you know, and safe preventive health measures you can take. And so I think, I don't know, I always think that's a useful thing to remember is that you have to hold these types of screening tools and procedures and preventive health measures to almost a higher standard of safety than you

would a medicine I'm giving you because you are ill. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, for sure. So we really, after we kind of started to define the problem, there was something developed that was called the Colano camera. And this was, yeah, I know, I love the Colano camera. And this is where we had the light, we have a long tube, but we really needed a better way. Like, how do we get that image from the tip of that tube back to the eye of the person who's going to read it, right? Well, we take a picture of it.

So with the development of development, of development, we started putting a camera on the end of the long tube, and we have fiber optics now for the lighting, and all of a sudden we're starting to see the colonoscopy, the colonoscope, if you will, as we know it, begin to be developed. Those early colano cameras would have actually taken pictures just like you would think of along the way, and then you would have to take that film

and develop it and look at those pictures just like we would any other camera which I think is really interesting because obviously that's not what we do now. By the 1960s

this has been refined to a point where the kind of colonoscopies they were performing you would recognize as similar to the kinds of things we do today. There were two doctors, Dr. Shenya and Dr. Wolf

who really kind of moved into the modern colonoscopy. One by adding insufflation and what that means is that carbon dioxide was pumped into the colon as well in order to expand it. So you open it up and expand the walls, and that does a couple things. One, they actually the way it was initially promoted is that it was a painless colonoscopy. It's a lot more comfortable when you're not feeling it because now the walls are inflated. And so the scope can pass easily through the tunnel.

fun as a post i mean the the colon is not a straight shot yeah it's uh as many articles will describe it it's torturous tortuous tortuous twist and turns i know i'm just looking at this episode was my idea i'm not like i'm sitting here thinking about what a bad idea i'm sitting here thinking like why did you do this like you're gonna hear about how twisting and winding this is going to be your toll you're why are you do this to yourself well no so they made the the two they made the tubes more and more flexible. And then by insufflating the colon, they can pass more easily, less pain, discomfort. And you get better visualization, too, because there's also the walls of the colon can be kind of wrinkly.

And if you poof them out, you can see all those nooks and crannies. And again, it's all improving the ability of a colonoscopy to see things that might be a problem, right? And then the next thing was we want to send these images immediately to view instead of taking pictures and having to develop them later and all of that. And so that's when we start to see the idea that's a video. It's being filmed live and they're watching it on a TV in the room while they're doing the procedure. And that also makes sure that you get a picture of everything. Like you can turn a little camera around and make sure you're seeing all of the walls as you go. the initial advances were mainly what we would call sigmoidoscopy because it only reached that

sigmoid colon the first part of the colon as we've gone further we can now reach further into the colon because the tubes are more flexible and we've you know we we do better in the 60s they even began to add so now we have a procedure that we're starting to use as a diagnostic tool meaning you we think you have a problem we can diagnose it a screening tool meaning We don't know if you have a problem or not, but we're going to look and see. And then finally, as a mode of treatment, and this is really fascinating. So in a colonoscopy, and this is true to this day, they began to, they would see something like a polyp, a little outgrowth of the tissue that lines the colon. A polyp, in many cases, is benign, not necessarily anything to worry about.

But at times it can be something concerning. And the only way to know for sure is to grab it, snare it, and cut it off, and take it with you. and go look at the pathology under a microscope and see what it is. Yep. So that was the next advance in colonoscopy, was now we can see the polyp. We've equipped them with weapons, so now they can fight back. I don't even know if I want to show you a picture. I'm not going to show you a picture.

I won't show you a picture. Well, and listen, the one I showed you a picture of, you know, is not. That's old-timey. That's old-timey. They're not using that tomorrow. They will not be using that. I still, though, I can tell that I'm on the edge of history. I feel it, Sid.

I feel that I'm just on the cusp of... It just feels like the advances in drones and stuff. There's going to be a new cool way of doing this so soon. I just feel it in my gut. There's going to be... I feel like my kids aren't going to have tubes up their butts like this. I just feel it. I just feel it my bones, man. They're working on it.

So all of these things that I just described from the 60s, really, the advances since then have mainly been perfecting it, perfecting the flexibility of the tube, the definition, the resolution of the camera, absolutely, high-deaf colonoscopies. I mean, all of that got better over time. And then, again, consistently inflating the colon to get a better view. And obviously, all of this partners with advances in anesthesia. The colonoscopy is probably less you're now than in the pre-anesthetic era. Yes, I would assume.

So, and at this point, we are looking at, could we do a virtual colonoscopy? Is there a way to do this without ever having to actually... State of the art, digital virtual colonoscopy. And the mean, the point a lot of people make, though, is that one of the beauties of the colonoscopy is the fact that you can also treat while you're doing the procedure. You're not just looking, if you see something, you can take. a piece of it, look at pathology, if something's bleeding, you can go ahead and cauterize that or coagulate, stop the bleeding if you need to. And they're perfecting those techniques as well into very, like, refined dissecting techniques that could find very, very early lesions that aren't concerning yet, but might be, and then you can dissect that out. Well, I just don't

understand why they can't zap my hemorrhoids too. There is a way to do that. I don't know that they're, they won't necessarily be doing that during your screening colonoscopy. I'll tell them ahead of time, like, if they could grab it on the way in. Just get the hemrides, just get those out of there on their way. Yeah, on the way by. And obviously, as with all areas of medicine right now, AI is being investigated as a way of

basically like computerized detection. Do we need some, do we need a human to look at it? I mean, my answer is yes. But that is, that is the next area being explored. Could we do this with computers? Could, is there a way? Now, I don't know of any effort for the computer to actually operate the camera at the moment. Like, you've got to have some human hands in there putting it in.

Yeah. But I did want to note, because that's sort of, that brings us up to where we are with colonoscopies today. Yes. I did want to note the pill cam because as you kind of follow the story of the colonoscopy, capsule endoscopy, you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, swallow the pill and then it comes out the other end. A lot of people have asked me this question, like, why do we even do those anymore when we could do a pill cam? Yeah, I'll go ahead and ask that now, actually. And so I think that that's a useful question to address, because capsule endoscopy, which means there's a, I say little, it's a relatively larger pill that you got to swallow, but it is little for a camera.

It's a camera and a pill that you swallow. It goes the entire lengths of your intestine, records images. It records them 2 to 6 frames per second over the course of 812 hours. You know, it's probably less control, right? Like, that's part of the problem. Like, if you want to go back and look at something more, you can't do that with the bill camera. Nope, it just passes through as it passes through.

We've been using them since 99. The battery life is still a limiting factor. About 16.5% of studies are incomplete due to just the batteries running out, which is a bummer. The other thing is that, like you said, you can't go back in revaluate areas. Obviously, you cannot treat anything. The pill just passes through and the images are sent somewhere, but you don't, you know, you can't, it can't go backwards. So no treatment, purely for diagnostic purposes.

It's really useful with the small bowel. As it stands right now, your small intestine is really long, and we have no camera that we can insert all the way from top or bottom to look at the entire length of the small intestine. Makes sense. So the pill cam is a, I mean, especially. Be really deep for the colonoscopy, but it's easier to get the pill cam at the upper. Well, a colonoscopy only does a large intestine. You're just looking at the colon. So if we need to look at the small intestine, you can do, if you go from the top, you're

doing an endoscopy, you look at the esophagus, down into the stomach. You can push into the first part of the small intestine. But the pill gets deeper. But you can't go any further. Yeah. So if you have some sort of like occult bleed somewhere hidden in the small intestine, And the pill might be really useful for diagnosing something like that. But as it stands, because it cannot visualize everything that a colonoscopy can,

it just doesn't get that kind of quality of imaging. We don't recommend it for screening colonoscopies at all. Now, there are rare cases where if somebody can't have a colonoscopy, if they have certain risk factors with the procedure, with anesthesia, or whatever, you may use this as the only other alternative. But generally speaking, pill cam is just not at a point where it could, replace a colonoscopy. There are other ways. This episode focuses on colonoscopies. There are other ways to scream for colon cancer. It's important to know. The beauty of the colonoscopy is, as I've already

said, you can treat things because you're already in there. And if your colonoscopy comes back and looks, you know, average as expected, and we don't see any high risk problems and you don't fit in any high risk categories, you probably won't need another one for 10 years. which is nice. Yeah. You've got 10 years, you don't have to think about a colonoscopy. Other screening methods can be less invasive, but the trade-off is that you usually have to do them more frequently.

So you've probably heard of, like, a fecal occult blood test, meaning we check your stool to see if there's blood in it that you can't see. With the devil. Sorry, the occult isn't... Oh, occult means, like, hidden. Oh, right. Hidden, like, I can't see the blood, but the blood's there. So you don't harness the devil's power at all.

It has nothing to do with the devil. Okay. Yeah, this is just hidden blood in your stool that you didn't see. I can test for that, but if I see it, I'm going to recommend a colonoscopy, maybe, probably, more than likely. And even if that's negative, we're going to need to do that probably every year. There's a test where we can check your stool for certain DNA that might suggest some sort of pre-cancerous or cancer growth. That is a little better. We can do that every three years, but, again, if we find anything abnormal, we're going to send you for a colonoscopy.

There are ways to just do sigmoidoscopy, but you do have to do that. that more frequently because we're not seeing the entire colon. So, you know, in that way, the colonoscopy still, if you're an appropriate candidate for it, you know, with the anesthesia and all that stuff, if you're an appropriate candidate, the colonoscopy is still sort of that gold standard for getting a good look at the entire colon, treating what you can, and knowing what your risk is moving forward and how often to do it. And again, it's really important. Last year, these were the numbers for 2025, there were about 107,320 new cases of colon cancer, 46,950 new cases of rectal cancer. And your lifetime risk of developing colorectal cancer is 1 in 24 for men and 1 in 26 for women.

We're seeing an increase in younger people under the age of 55, which is part of why they have moved that starting age of screening from 50 down to 45. So it's really important to get your colon cancer screening. Talk to your health care provider. If you think maybe your risk is different, you know, you're worried about a family history or a specific medical condition you have. 45 might not be the right answer for you. So talk to your provider about what method of screening and how frequently you should get it. It's really important.

And Justin, you're the trailblazer leading the way in our family. What an inspiration. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm getting it. And it's going to be fine.

It's going to be fine. I'm not that worried about it. I'm not. It's inconvenient, I'll say. Well, the preparations, but should I talk about the preparations or should I say that? Do you want to talk about the preparations now or you want to save them? You can. Yeah.

Next week, I will talk about the personal experience. What is actually like to get this, how mine was personally, what the preparation has been like because it's been interesting. Yeah, and demystify it for people. I think a lot of people are really anxious about it and they hear a lot of horror stories about the prep especially. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not that bad. Yeah, let's untangle it for people. We'll figure it out. I say it's not that bad. I haven't done it yet. I'm halfway, I'm currently doing it. You're halfway through. I'm halfway through. I'm getting there. That's going to do it for us for this week, though. Be sure to join us again next week for Sawbones. Oh, thank you

the taxpayers for the use of their song, Medicines, as the intro and outro of our program. And thanks to you for listening. That's going to do it for us. Until next time, my name is Justin McRoy. I'm Sidney McRoy. And as always, don't drill a hole in your head. All right. Maximum Fun. A Worker-owned network of artist-owned shows. Supported directly by you.