Sawbones: A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine - Sawbones: Dr. Oz

Episode Date: October 11, 2022

There are many people who have been recurring characters on Sawbones. Pliny the Elder. Charlie. But few so notorious as Dr. Mehmet Oz, now running for the U.S. Senate. This isn’t a commentary on his political fitness; just an examination of his history of questionable medical advice and pop-science claims.CW: Discussion of dieting and weight lossMusic: "Medicines" by The Taxpayers https://taxpayers.bandcamp.com/

Saw bones is a show about medical history, and nothing the hosts say should be taken as medical advice or opinion. It's for fun. Can't you just have fun for an hour and not try to diagnose your mystery boil? We think you've earned it. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy a moment of distraction from that weird growth. You're worth it. that weird growth. You're worth it. Alright, talk is about books. One, two, one, two, three, four. We came across a pharmacy with a toy and that's busted out. We were sawed through the broken glass and had ourselves a look around.

Some medicines, some medicines that escalate my cop for the mouth. Wow. Hello everybody and welcome to Saul Bones, a marital tour of Miscite and Medicine. I'm your co-host Justin McEl. And I'm Sydney McElroy. So I had to overlap as you were still doing your... I had some vocal girls. Sorry, our cats are just like, you think we should shut the door,

we should have shut the door, but... I'll shut the door, they're just wrestling the door, but... I'll shut the door. They're just wrestling. It's okay. They're not really fighting. Yeah, they're just, they get so wild with each other. It's great though, because the little cat, all of his help keep the big cat, Amelia, a lot more active,

which is being great, because Amelia was kind of slug who wouldn't let us touch her. Now she's an active cat who we can't touch. I know. So that's the... But the other cat touches her. So...'s an active cat who we can't touch. So that's what it is. But the other cat touches her. So the other cat's all up in your business. Now she's got interaction.

She wants to be with you so bad, she'll get in the shower. She dates it. She'll do it if this were her doing it. This is the truth. She's right or not. She'll sit on your lap while you're on the toilet. She's, yeah, but our kids do that, so that's not as cute. Um, Sydney, what are we, uh,. Sydney, what are we talking about today?

Oh, Justin, there's so much in the news these days about, okay, we have frequent guests on the show and by guests I don't mean actual guests because I know what you're thinking. We almost never have guests. Very rarely do we have. Justin McGroy. Uh, Laura and Mary Roach Mary Roach. Yeah, that's it. Charlie was Lynn on the episode. He's on I suppose it's still buffering. Yeah, Charlie Riley Riley took over for okay So we've had a few three years. We've had a few but not when I say guests

I mean like people that pop up in our episodes frequently and like usually you're thinking of plenty Plenty. Plenty's not in this one, except now I've put a minute, I guess. Plenty the elder. Who's like, he's a friend, I think of the show. He's a friend who makes, you have that friend that you love that makes bad choices. That's, that's Plenty.

You know, like, all Plenty, not again. Another, I would not say, friend of the show, but frequent, frequent mentioned character is draws. Frequent mentioned character draws. Is draws or doctor odds, but we like to call them draws here. Yeah. And draws just all over the news these days. Oh man, are you guys see this?

Draws is up in the mix. I don't know. We're being facetious, of course. I don't know if you're aware, but he's running for Senate. And that's okay. Honey, do you want to kind of reveal a true story to you? I did not, my brain would not comprehend it.

The first like three or four times, I just like bounced off it. Like I must be misinterpreting what's happening here. And then it's like, oh wait a minute, draws is really running for Senate. Yeah. All right. Yeah, no he is.

And the thing is like, and we have talked about little bits and pieces of draws on the show before, because we've been talking about like pseudoscience or debunking debunking something and we will include Dr. Oz because he was part of the pseudoscientific like advocacy community. And so that is why he has popped up on the show, not because of his politics, because I really, this is not an episode

about whether or not he's qualified to run for office. Right. I don't know, I am running for office. I don't know what qualified to run for office means anymore. I'm not 100% clear when you look, when you look, and this is not a recent thing as I was, as I was thinking through this, like, well, if you look in recent years, there are a lot of people who hold office and have held office, who I would not have thought were

qualified to hold office. But I think if you, like, go through all of American history, I think you could call out a lot of stinkers. Who that is the greatest summation of the American experiment that I have ever heard in my entire life. And I bet any democratic nation would have the same thing where they're like, well, we voted for that person. And that was woof. We had some stinkers on that one. That was a mistake.

So I don't know what call I don't know what we, as a whole, as a society, as a species, as a people, as a nation, as any, whatever kind of subset of humanity you wanna call out, I don't know what we consider qualified to run for office. So I wanna talk about the medicine, or not medicine, that draws his promoted through the years.

That's my focus here, okay? Whether or not you decide that makes him qualified to run for office, that's up to you. This is just about the way. And what he practices on TV is what we usually call popular medicine now, which isn't like – So you do unpopular medicine. It's just popular medicine. No, no, this is the same thing. I mean, and that's why I want it like, I am also, this is, this show talks, I mean, this is popular medicine as well.

Now, I would say that we very clearly, and I think I've said this many, well, we have a whole disclaimer. I am very clearly hoping to give you a little bit of information about history or current pseudo scientific things, something that I think may be interesting if it's beneficial that's great. But our primary goal is to entertain you. Yes. It's comedy podcast. Yeah. We hope that you'll laugh or, you know, tell your friends

because like it was enjoyable, or it'll make your drive to or from wherever you're driving. Yeah. You know, whatever. I think the issue is that a lot of what draws does is is really in the realm of medical advice and popular medicine skews over into that where it's not as much, I mean, I think he's definitely trying to entertain you, but he's also trying to like empower you to change your life, which is a very different goal. Yes, that is, that is more activist, is activist medicine? Is that, is that, no, it's more active? Yeah. And, and I'm not good, again, I am not going to sit here and say that I never, I have never told you to like,

I don't know, get your flu vaccine, because I have. Feel good about that still though. Yeah, no, I still feel good about that. But let's, okay, first of all, credential wise, Oz is legit when it comes to credentials. There have been a lot of like TV, and I'm using like air quotes, doctors, who are not always like, maybe they are a doctor,

but not of the thing they're talking about, you know, you know that shows the doctors, maybe half of them are doctors. Well, I think, no, I think they are doctors. There's just, I think, Dr. Phil, it's a brain doctor. I don't know what kind of doctor Dr. Phil is, but it's, well, it's important that like the thing is there are lots of different kinds of doctors and it's important that you Do the kind of doctoring that the degree you got makes you able to do Oswint to Harvard he went to the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine

He was a cardiothoracic surgeon and a professor at Columbia. I say was I mean, I guess he still technically is It's just that I as far as I know he doesn't see patients anymore. Yeah, so not that he is a capable. Right. Well, he's really busy. He is I was trying to figure out his relationship with Columbia currently because it seems like as of this year Columbia has sort of like As of this year, Colombia has sort of like ghosted us. Like you can't find a lot of mention anymore of like his connection to Colombia. I think he technically is still like a professor emeritus or a special lecture or something affiliated with Colombia, but I don't know that Colombia is thrilled about that these days. And that's just like as of May. That's very recent. Because as you know, he's now really busy running for Senate. He started out on the Oprah Winfrey show back

in the early 2000s. He made a ton of appearances. That was sort of when she dubbed him America's doctor. Of course. I love you, Oprah, but this was a questionable choice. This was what we've all made questionable choices. Yeah, this was definitely not choice. This was the way. This was what we've all made questionable choices. Yeah, this was definitely not the finest moment. In 2009, he got his own show, the Dr. Oz show. Great name. Yeah. And like, and he had other, there was another show

that predated that like a second opinion with Dr. Oz and he would pop up on like, I think he popped up on the doctors from time to time, the show the doctors, there were documentaries sort of made about him, like Dr. Oz, the surgeon, and like, stories of his life and career. So like, he's been on TV a lot. A lot. In addition to his own show.

And I think his show just ended, right? Didn't it just go off the air recently? I don't know. Probably in conjunction with the, I would say this, I do podcasts, and I'm running for office. And you can imagine that there are moments where you have to consider where those two things intersect.

I imagine doing a television show and trying to run for Senate. There are lots of moments where those two would intersect. So I have to think that that was like a strategic decision, or he got canceled. I have no idea. Yeah, he canceled it. He announced the cancellation at about the same time as he started running for office. So yeah, so I would imagine strategic or tip focus time, whatever, whatever, yeah, I don't know. He would, so he's giving medical advice on his show. He would also serve on Trump's presidential counsel on sports fitness and nutrition.

And because he was on a presidential council, then he could do lots of TV appearances on like Fox News. And throughout the pandemic, he was a frequent flyer on Fox News to give his own brand of advice vis-a-vis managing COVID. Yes. Which you can, as you could guess was fraught. So he has a huge platform to give advice. He's a huge platform.

Huge platform. And again, I am not, he is working in a realm that I am also a part of. I'm in a different facet of it. So I want to be really careful because I think it's fair to acknowledge the line you have to walk to promote evidence-based medicine and science and try to be a voice for that, because as I've talked about openly on the show, I realized we had a platform to do that at some point, and I felt like it was my responsibility

to say things out loud like vaccines are safe and effective. You know, I feel like that there is a, you do have a responsibility to do that, but you're also in my case, I feel like that there is a, you do have a responsibility to do that. But you're also, in my case, our goal was to entertain people. In his case, he's on TV and he's trying to sell those ad slots. So you have this other goal. He's also, let's be honest, I mean, with a show like that, just the practicalities of it,

you got a lot of time to fill. So if somebody's like, I heard there's a different way of pooping that's better, you're like, well, Wednesday is looking like. That's so funny. You know, once I've talked to all the stuff that works, maybe he's just got some time to fill. Well, and it depends on what you, your kind of philosophical background is,

like your personal philosophy on this stuff, because like there is no one size fits all advice. There's no cure-alls. We talk about that on the show. I could easily say something like, humans need sleep. Good. That's true.

Drink water sometimes. Like these are like widely applicable pieces of advice, but there's not much out there like that in medicine. And I think that, so his sort of, and he's talked about this, his philosophy is that you have to keep an open mind about everything. And he words it like, I wanna give people a chance to rethink their futures, which I don't know exactly what that means medically. But that is his defense. So his sort of

affinity for alternative medicine predates his television career. A lot of people sort of have painted it as like the down thaw of a doctor who was practicing perfect evidence-based medicine and then like got ensnared by fame. Back in 1995, he started the Cardiac Complementary Care Center, which was a complimentary and alternative medicine center to go along with his surgical pursuits. Like the goal was to practice alternative medicine. So he already had this sort of interest obviously, right? And if you want to cut through the jargon, I'm a layman

so I can say this, complimentary means like, it works alongside the stuff that actually works. Yes. And alternative medicine is an alternative to medicine that works. So if those two things help you to clarify what the sitter is for, that is the explanation. And well, but I think there's also some misleading stuff there too, because there is complimentary and alternative medicine as a scientific pursuit.

That is something that people study and research and attempt to find evidence for various complimentary and alternative. find evidence for various complementary alternatives. So like, not the stuff that we typically do in alipathic or osteopathic medicine. There are people who pursue that. That's not what this was because one of the things he got in trouble for was practicing therapeutic touch. Do you know what therapeutic touch is? Oh, listen. Listen.

I've been around a while. Oh, no. No, this is getting gross a while. Oh no. No, this is getting gross. A thing or two. Okay, so therapeutic touch is more than just the idea that touching someone is therapeutic, which is what you might think. Because like when I first read that, that's what I thought.

Like, well, you know, in the kind of medicine I practice, I find great value in just like performing the typical physical exam. Nothing like weird or different. Just like listening to somebody's heart and lungs, checking their blood pressure. If they have an acre of pain somewhere, like checking out a joint, or, you know, let me look at that on your skin that you're worried about or like your stomach hurts, let me do an appropriate abdominal exam. Things like that, there is an importance in that sort of relationship that you build as a patient and a healthcare provider. There is nothing magic. There's nothing happening. I mean,

there are hormones released when we hug each other or that kind of thing. There's affection. And I don't know. Perhaps that could be true when you're listening to somebody's lungs. I haven't done that study. But I do think that there is importance in that. The idea that like, if it's okay with you, I'm going to put my hands on you in order to learn more about you, that I can share that information back with you and take better care of you. I do think that there is something very important in human.

That is not what this is. This is a form of alternative healing. It was developed that what we think of as therapeutic touch really comes out of the 1970s. Now, you will hear Dr. Oz and other people who practice it saying that it's based on ancient techniques and the reference different ancient medical traditions that they've drawn from. But this as a distinct entity is really coming from the 70s. And certainly, all of these things are usually referential and stolen from other cultures and whatnot. We talk about that on the show a lot. But Dora Coons, who was president of the Theosophical Society previously was the one who sort of developed this as a distinct field. And it's based on this sort of belief that like we all have this energy field around us.

Wellness is the result of that energy flowing freely and in the pathways it should go. Illness is when it gets blocked or isn't moving appropriately. And therapeutic touch, there is no actual touching. You just sort of hold your hands close to the skin and manipulate that energy field. Like raky. So like raky. You just hold your hands and like move energy around.

I only know about raky from ASMR videos about raky, you just hold your hands and like move energy around. I only know about raky from ASMR videos about raky. But it's a, it's in a similar idea of your manipulate, I think from what I understand, it's a manipulation of like energy fields. Yes. And there are again, which is why they can, they can make the claim that it's based on other traditional forms of medicine, you know, from the ancient world or from other cultures, is because you'll find the sort of concept of like energy field manipulation

and like that we have energy flow, you can find that echoed throughout different medical traditions. The thing is, he... That's what I'm saying, but that's like, that's like how I'm saying saying the Lion King is an ancient movie because it's based on Hamlet. Yes. This, the people who practice this, and this is practiced in different places throughout

the US and all over the world, are, they're basing it on this 1970s sort of model Just to just to sort of give you an idea of like what this exact thing how ancient it is The ideas it's built upon are ancient. Does that make sense? Yes, okay So I guess he was doing therapeutic touch as it is cardiac complementary care center and the university they was associated with was kind of like No, please don't let let's not, don't, don't do that. So that interest was already there. I wanna go through some of the most famous pseudo-scientific theories and ideas that have been put forth.

Sudo-sudo-scientific. Most famously to get us started draws us into homeopathy. Oh, man, that's not real. He stated that his own family has practiced homeopathy for a long time. So again, not indicating that he just wanted to sell stuff. Like, it's, it's, can I say something weird? Mm hmm. And this is probably like more of a late show, but sometimes I like to pontificate for a second

so you can get some coffee while we're recording. Mm hmm. Um, it's, it's, it's bizarre to me that someone's self is expansive enough to contain draws. I mean that literally and I don't mean it as a dig or a compliment really. It's just weird to me that someone could do all the things that he has done in alopathic medicine and then like leave so much room. Has not hardening you a little bit? You know what I mean to learn and practice as much as you have has, and then still support these things that are not evidence. How do you make room for both of those positions? I guess is what kind of surprises me.

I actually think that there's, and again, I know this is not usually where we talk about this, but I actually think there's sort of a circular thing to this that makes sense to me. The more I have learned in medicine, the more I know I don't know. I think that what I always look for in students and residents is someone who will freely admit they don't know something and ask me questions. Because that's someone who understands the limitations at every level of training of what you can know. And eventually you get to a point where you realize you can't know everything.

There is always stuff out there that you don't know. And keeping that open mind is really essential in medicine, especially like with what I do in primary care because I have to kind of know everything. I always have to allow. I always have to allow for the possibility that there's something, it's the unknown, unknown. I don't know, I don't know it.

I always have to allow for that box to exist. Equal for your here at Donald Rumsfeld. Did Donald Rumsfeld say that? That's the movie, remember that? Oh, he did say that. Documentary. Oh no, well, that's not what I'm referencing. That was an lecture I had.

Oh, the war is that. That was, I think that was the war. I was in a, we had this in a lecture in medical school. They drew the boxes of the known, known, the known, unknown, and whatever, and then the unknown, unknown, and how you always have to know, you have to be aware of that in medicine that there's an unknown unknown. And if you don't keep space for that, you're going to miss something or misdiagnose or whatever. Those are all really important principles in medicine, and it's how you take the best care of people honestly.

But what I don't, so I get that. I get him opening his mind to that. What I don't get is how when you latch on to some of these fake treatments and cure-alls, then you're returning to this concrete place. This is a miracle cure. If you have said that, you know you're off the rails. You know you've lost it. And so that is the place where I lose track of draws.

Okay, I wanted to. It's corn mases, weirdly. Like, he gets in there, I have no clue. Draws? Draws, funny? We're leaving. All right, we're gonna talk about draws. I want apple cider, draws.

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and knocking the clean laundry over. Sydney, you said you wanted to talk for a half hour about draws and apples? We're going to get there. I was about to, I got to start off with homey-opathy. So this was, this is, and there are many articles written about all of the pseudoscientific claims draws has made. And not just in, obviously, there are more articles in the all of the pseudoscientific claims draws has made. And not just in, obviously, there are more articles in the last year because there is a renewed interest in that because he's running for office.

This has been, I mean, you can look back and there are articles from 2011, 2013, 2016, 2017. I mean, there are articles from before his political career criticizing his pseudoscientific stances. So he said that his family has used homeopathy for a long time. He brought on a homeopathic practitioner, I believe, like a doctor of naturopathic, to come on and talk about a homeopathic starter kit. Okay. One of the ways I watched this clip and one of the ways he promotes it is he says the great thing about it is that homeopathy uses, quote, less substances than Western medicine.

I think that's a less substance. Less substances. I think when you just start talking and you don't know what you're going to say, sometimes you come out with a sentence like it uses less substances, which in that, like in that context would mean that substances are bad. Yeah, just like material. Like substance. Like substance. Like substance.

So the example that he uses is like, okay, so coffee, if you drink a lot of coffee, you might have insomnia. Okay. So dilute the coffee, dilute it a bunch, and then that could cure it. Drinking really dilute coffee. Okay. If you mean instead of... Weak coffee, yeah, I'm sure. If you drink superute coffee. If you mean instead of...

Weak coffee, yes. If you drink super weak coffee. Eventually, if you do that long enough, and just get weaker and weaker, weak her, eventually that will work. Well, and in homeopathy, in homeopathy, you're not, you wouldn't be drinking dilute coffee.

You would be drinking water that has the essence of coffee in it, that has the energy, the vibration of coffee. Like how Le Croix just has the essence of raspberry. Similar. But not like those holiday celtars that you got that time, which like, no, that was agnog. That was not the essence of agnog. That was like, no, capital E capital N. But despite, I got actually just got nauseous to hear at the Bud Light Hall as elders.

Yeah, and that's, and he says, there, I mean, he basically says, despite a lack of evidence, a lot of people, a lot of people are really into this. And that's sort of the selling point for it. A lot of people use it.

Then, so he puts together a kit that you should get, And that's sort of the selling point for it. A lot of people use it. Dan. So he puts together a kit that you should get, I guess, to start off your homeopathic pursuits. Belidonna for fever. And that sounds, I know what you're thinking like, can't Belidonna make you super sick? Yes, but the thing about homeopathy that they always tout is that it's really safe because at the end of the day,

it's really just water because it's been so diluted that there is no active molecule of the thing that it started as in it essentially. He, so the sort of like emergency pack and he has like a little box for wipes and he says you can take each of these, take the wipes out, take each of these little test tube looking preparations of homeopathic remedies and put them in your little box and like keep them, I guess, instead of a first aid kit.

Sure. And then at the first sound trouble, you pick up that kit, throw it in the trash. Call 911. Call 911. I don't know. That's my workflow. That's how I like to handle these.

So Beladonna for fever, phosphorus for a cough, and then some sort of traditional herbal things like gallcemium for flu, pulsatilla for sinus infection, and nux vomica for ingestion. We've talked about some of these on the show before. Again, to talk about whether or not these substances actually do anything for these various ailments wouldn't matter because they're they're so diluted that they're not like you're taking a drop of water. Yeah. He says on the show, as he's interviewing this practitioner, he says, and you can use this alongside Western medicine.

And she's like, yeah, yeah, definitely. And then a lot of people have been able to stop taking their medicines and use this instead. So this is in the, like I watched just a clip of this episode. And this is in the episode is putting forth the idea, again, that it's not complimentary, that it is an alternative. And if you're going to tell people to stop taking a medicine and start taking drops of water with the essence of, you know, Beledona in it,

you better have some evidence to back up that claim and he's already told us in the show that he doesn't have evidence because there is none. So, here you go. Apples. So there was an episode in which he warned that apple juice contains dangerous levels of arsenic. And what he was talking about is that there's a lot of apple juice made from concentrate and he's blaming it on China. He's saying that we get this apple juice concentrate from China,

that they don't have very strict regulations on pesticides. And so the apple juice from concentrate that you're giving your children has arsenic in it. Now you can imagine that that could cause quite a panic. He has a large audience and he's talking about, and he did some, he cited some testing that was done that showed that there was too much arsenic. The big controversy is that there are two forms of arsenic, organic and inorganic.

We have different thresholds for different kinds of arsenic because the inorganic is the dangerous one, for sure. The organic is, it does exist in soil and probably apples and other things grown in soil. The organic is generally accepted as not toxic. There are also different levels for water versus apple juice and other juices, in part, because we drink a lot more water. And also because the organic and inorganic balance

is different in different forms. So for all of these reasons, and he also only measured the total, he didn't break it down to organic and inorganic. So for all these reasons, like because of this episode, the FDA had to come out and start doing testing to show that apple juice was safe.

And to re-examine how much arsenic we can have in apple juice and reaffirm, this is why it's okay. And these are the tests we've done. And we did not, you know, the evidence that he found we could not find evidence we did independent testing But it was this whole panic over apple juice Which is also interesting now if you're worried though apple sauce is listed in his like great weight loss Tips currently on his website, so great. There's, you can just dip melon in it, he says.

Just dip melon in what? Apple sauce. To lose weight. Okay, great. I mean, it sounds good. I should, I should preface, and we can put this in the, in the description. I should preface that, um, Dr. Oz talks a lot about weight loss, so we are going to mention a few more weight loss things he talks about.

Um, he warned that cell phones can cause cancer. So we are going to mention a few more weight loss things he talks about He warned that cell phones can cause cancer He was talking about storing them in your bra. That's something I used to do when I would run I would just stick it down in my sports bra. Are you ran? This has been a long time ago I Don't run anymore But I'm there I'm just saying I know people do that. They'll stick it down in their bra. And he was saying, don't do that because it causes cancer. There's no evidence for that.

Well, I would, it does also make the question like, draws if it's bad up here, it should be bad pretty much, may I should, it should be bad anywhere. Well, yeah, I mean, it's helpful causes cancer, I myself don't, I would cause cancer. I would cause her causes cancer, or the cell phone's gone from cancer. It's her leg cancer draws. He called raspberry ketones, a number one miracle in a bottle to burn your fat and promoted this as a weight loss cure. There's a whole list, by the way, of substances he's promoted as weight loss cures.

He very famously green coffee being extract. And we talked about this on the show before. He had to go before a Senate committee for that one, because he called it the magic weight loss solution that it was a miracle drug. And that's always the key. He says, I'm not selling this stuff. But when you stand on stage on a very popular television show

and tell people they should people that green coffee being extract is a weight loss miracle. You know hundreds of thousands of bottles of that are gonna get sold. Yeah, you definitely are, for sure, 100%. The study that this was based on was later retracted. Good. And studies can be retracted for a lot of reasons

that aren't intentional. By the way, I should say, like, there is this, I mean, that does happen in science where people re-examine and you realize there was a confounder you didn't control for or something. But in this case, the data appeared to have been altered. Oh, okay. Wow.

It's a little bit more intentional, maybe with that. So, he also promoted HCG. We've talked about that on the show too. As a weight loss supplement, the problem other than the fact that we don't have any evidence that it works, is that the diet that's recommended to go along if you're going to do the HCG injections usually, is a 1,200 a day calorie diet. And he did, I will say in the episode, he did make the note that you should talk to a doctor before going on a 1,200 calorie a day diet, but that's an incredibly dangerous thing

to promote out in the world is that sort of extreme calorie restriction that can be very harmful to people for a variety of reasons. And so it's just, it's also one size fits all. It's all in the way that health that just that we've seen in this podcast is like, is not like, that's not, it's not that way. Like, no, it's not that way. It also is not, He's equating because he is a doctor when he stands on TV and tells you how to lose weight, the implicit message is you need to lose weight. Right. And that's a really dangerous message that he's starting off with. He needs, we have to take a step back.

Why are you promoting ways to lose weight? Why are you promoting ways to lose weight quickly as well? Yeah, right. What is the... Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of dangerous ideology behind standing on stage and telling people this supplement will make you lose weight. He's not really willing to engage with.

He promoted Garcinia Cambosia as well, which doesn't work, but also... I've heard he promoted Garmin Bosia, which is the demonic corn from Twin Peaks, which that went too far. Really Garmin Bosia? It says, we, oh, and this one may be causes liver toxicity in some people. We're not entirely sure how dangerous it is or isn't, but the point is this is, this is why he often will say like, well, we don't know if it works, but why not try it? You'll see him say that on the show a lot.

Why not try it? Why not try it? Why not try it? Why not try it? Draws? Well, it hurt my lip or draws because it might be harmful because it costs you money and because you're seeking out an alternative in some cases to some sort of actually evidence-based medicine

that might help you. So there's lots of why not try it. The why not try it is a really dangerous question. And it's also like he knows better. I don't, this has been the, as I've been doing this episode, I'm trying to figure out if he's like a true believer or not. I can't, I can't put my finger on it. Is it is because if you're a true believer, the why not try it makes total sense to you. But what worries me is we both went to medical school. He was in

residency and fellowship longer than me because of the kinds of doctors we are. You know the why not try it. I know you know that. This is what's, this is what, what's timing is me. But um, and he also of course touted hydroxychloroquine for COVID. He during, during the pandemic, he made lots of I feel like it's a pandemic. It was sort of like his origin story as the draws we know today.

I feel like it was the flipper fly moment of like, I mean, they're gonna go hard for alternative medicines or I'm gonna go hard for guidelines and helping everybody get through this in a safe way. And I, you know, I, I don't know. I didn't watch all of his programming during that thing, but it definitely seems like that led us to where we are at today. Like you, you kind of had to rubber meets the road.

We're beyond like have more energy. You know what I mean? It's no longer like get a little spring in your step or have the colon of a 30 year old. Whatever. I can't, I can't imagine he planned on going on TV and saying we should reopen schools because it would only be like two to three percent mortality increase. I mean, I wouldn't plan on going on TV to say that. And then like somebody saying, do you mean like two to three percent more kids die? Or what do you mean there, draws? What do you mean there?

And I mean, and a later he sort of apologized or tried to explain it or whatever that statement that he did not intend to just write off the deaths of humans of any age. He had hoped it would mainly be bullies and that was what he was thinking when he said that number but of course there are non bullies at schools too. And and you know again again, throughout the pandemic, we've talked about on this show, we did some early episodes on COVID where I had no clue that it was going to become what it became.

I did not predict what was going to happen, which we have been totally forthcoming about and never told people any different. And I think that's the other thing is like, science evolves and you can't make these statements and then just stand on them forever. He also promotes erudology. He had somebody on his show to talk about. It's another pseudoscientific study where you examine someone's iris in their eye, their iris. Oh wow. Is that just phrenology for eyeballs? Sort of like that. Yeah.

You look for colors and patterns, and then you can tell them about their health state. I want to do a whole episode on this at some point, but just to give you like a sneak peek. Okay. When I looked into where did this come from, it looks like it started with a 19th century Hungarian physician who got the idea after

he saw, he was looking to the eye of a man who had broken his leg and the streaks of color looked similar to the eye of an owl whose leg he had broken once. And he thought, well, maybe these streaks appear when you break your leg and there's a science here. Excuse me. This may be an apocryphal story, but it was the first story that came up as I was looking into erudology.

So that will be our next episode. We'll be erudology. Well, hold on. How did he break an owl's leg? I don't know, honey, I'm hoping to find out, and that may not even be true, but we gotta find that out. So I've seen so tuning in next time.

I've seen three owls. I can name them for you. Like I can tell you the exact moment I've seen owls three times. Never in a million years what I have gotten into a situation. I don't know I'm gonna get into this episode anyway so he brought on a doctor who does this and then said like listen. This is an ancient thing so who am I to question it? Which we know is a fallacy. A modern fallacy. And of course, and of course, we've done a whole episode on this before, but he also tweeted about medical astrology, the idea that your zodiac sign can help in some way inform your health status. For instance, I am an aries. So I have issues with migraines, jaw tension, sinus problems.

I don't have issues with those things. But I actually do not think that has anything to do with my Zodiac sign one way or the other. Justin, I tried to look into what you Scorpios have. And it said something about reproduction and regeneration. No, I just popped up on here. Cool butt,itis. It just says that you have a cool butt

that looks great in genes or shorts. I like astrology stuff, and I will say whenever you look up Scorpio stuff, genitals come up a lot, just saying. But I don't like it for medical stuff. I like it for talking to my mom about it, because she's into it. That's what astrology is for. It's for talking to my mom about it because she's into it. That's what strategy is for. It's for talking to my mom about it. There was a 2014 study published

in the British Medical Journal you may have heard of. It looked at the Dr. Oz show and the show, the doctors for do they have evidence to back up their claims. And what they found was that evidence supported about 46% of the things that are set on those shows. Evidence completely contradicts 15% and there is no evidence found for 39%. So less than 50% and the doctors, right? Yeah, just to be clear. So maybe he was the 50%.

Yeah. So less than half of the time, Dross has evidence for the stuff he's saying. And I think that like, and you know, he would probably defend that by saying, well, I say that on the show. I say that I don't have that. I said that.

I said that. I don't have evidence. But the thing is, it's the doctor Oz show. He is a doctor. He's a medical doctor who went to Harvard. And everybody knows that. And he also was, I remember the show

where they watched him like he did heart surgeries and they followed him around in his scrubs and looking very cool and doing his surgeries. So like we know he's a legit doctor. And so when he stands up there and talks about something, I mean, we take that seriously. We, you know, I mean, we're programmed to take that seriously. And a lot of people think,

this is America's doctor and he's giving me advice. And it sounds so easy sometimes. That's the other allure of it. Like it, all, it would be so easy if this stuff was true. I always think it's interesting this idea that doctors hide this stuff from you because it's so simple. I'd give anything if medicine was as simple as draws makes it sound sometimes. Because then a lot more people would be healthy and happy and I don't know, maybe we'd live forever. That all sounds awesome to me.

But unfortunately, it's often a lot more complex and nuanced and also individual. It also is personal to each. Yes, we have guidelines and studies and evidence that tell us generally what works and what directions we should go. But when you sit down to make a treatment plan, it's just you and the patient making that plan, because it's what works best for their life.

And you can't make those calls on television other than like humans need sleep. I would say that that's a fair one. And having the rectum of a 30 year old, thank you so much for listening to our podcast. He does, he does do an episode on vaginal age. Yeah, yeah, we saw a clip from that. Thank you so much for listening to our show, which is called Solbundz. We hope you've enjoyed yourself.

Thanks to the taxpayers for these, their song medicines is the intro and outro of our program. And thanks to you for listening. We're pretty excited. We hope you have a great week. That's gonna do it for us. Until next time, my name is Justin McElroy.

I'm Sydney McElroy. It's always, you don't drill a hole in your hand. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy.

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I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. Alright!