Sawbones: A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine - Sawbones: Dr. Pope

Episode Date: May 13, 2025

There was a time when Popes had secondary careers (or primary ones) on to of their Papal one. This includes Pope John XXI, the only Pope to have also been a physician. Dr. Sydnee and Justin talk about this non-traditional Pope and his contribution to medicine in the 12th century.Music: "Medicines" by The Taxpayers https://taxpayers.bandcamp.com/Center for Reproductive Rights: https://reproductiverights.org/

Sawbones is a show about medical history, and nothing the hosts say should be taken as medical advice or opinion. It's for fun. Can't you just have fun for an hour and not try to diagnose your mystery boil? We think you've earned it. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy a moment of distraction from that weird growth. You're worth it. from that weird growth. You're worth it. Alright, this one is about some books. One, two, one, two, three, four. We came across a farm in the middle of the desert.

We came across a farm in the middle of the desert. We came across a farm in the middle of the desert. We came across a farm in the middle of the desert. We came across a farm in the middle of the desert. We came across a farm in the middle of the desert. We came across a farm in the middle of the desert. We came across a farm in the middle of the desert. We came across a farm in the middle of the desert.

We came across a farm in the middle of the desert. We came across a farm in the middle of the desert. We came across a farm in the middle of the desert. We came across a farm in the middle of the desert. We came across a farm in the middle of the desert. We came across a farm in the middle of the desert. We came across a farm in the middle of the desert. We came across a farm in the middle of the desert.

We came across a farm in the middle of the desert. We came across a farm in the middle of the desert. We came across a farm in the middle of the desert. We came across a farm in the middle of the desert. We came across a farm in the middle of the desert. We came across a farm in the middle of the desert. Hello everybody and welcome to Sawbones, a marital tour of misguided medicine, I'm your co-host Justin Mackerel and I'm Sydney McElroy That's it that's the show no I was gonna say habeas papal Hey, that's true Justin habeas papal to you. We have a pope you did you google that or do you remember it from conclave? What how did you know to say it? I got it. I saw a guy email Oh, you got an email that said that from the diocese. I said hey Okay, they had to tell you first. Amen. The diocese had to let you know the smoke

We saw it. We're about to break the story on the news But we wanted to let you know first, Captain, the new pope has arrived, Pope Leo XIII, is that right, XIV? 14. 14. 14. Yes. Yeah, that's much better. You know, they skip the XIII, Pope. There's no XIII of any of the names.

They skip from 12 to 14. That's not true, Justin. That is absolutely not true, and I know- And I just learned that. I just learned that it's not true. So I think we're already learning a lot. You just learned two facts in one, Lester. That's not true because in today's episode,

Pope Leo XIII plays a very, he hasn't mentioned, he's got a cameo in this episode. So I can tell you for a fact there was a XIII. Because we were thinking about the new pope. It's very exciting. He was born in Chicago. I love Chicago. Yeah, hey.

I famously love Chicago. I talk about it a lot. We would probably live in Chicago if you guys didn't get it so darn cold all the time. Yeah, why does it have to be cold there like it is sometimes? But otherwise I love Chicago, so. And let me just say, first American pope,

and I am just so glad that the great stuff over here has been recognized and honored. We have absolutely been crushing it lately, so happy. I don't think that's- Thank God and His infinite wisdom saw fit to elevate us to this incredible honor. Thank you, God, as always. I don't think that's what's going on.

That is, we've been crushed it. But he is. Brought to you courtesy of the red, white and blue. Uh-huh, yeah. Now I like that the official declaration is he's the second pope from the Americas. Oh, okay. Let's reduce our importance in this.

Anyway, he was born in Chicago. This is not a pope review show. This is not, well, we are gonna talk about a pope. We're not gonna talk about the new pope, although I am looking forward to him reversing all the rivers in Italy, as I assume he will, just like in Chicago. I love Chicago.

It's a good pulse. Maybe make him green. Make him green. On St. Patrick's Day. Yeah. I don't know. Anyway, that got us thinking about popes and medicine. Now, we usually think about what did popes do

before they were popes? Well, they did other religious stuff, right? Like that's what you assume. You don't have a lot of what you might describe as like non-traditional popes, non-traditional students being elevated to pope, like a late in life switch to the clergy. And you're like, well, you know what?

It's not too late. I might squeeze in there. You don't hear, there's not a lot of popes with side gigs. Yeah, right. But like, no, they usually. Not a lot of multi-hyphenate popes. No, there aren't. And even, I was watching interviews

with the new popes brothers who were talking about how, as a kid, he used to make them play church and he would be priest. So like, he always wanted to be pope, really. And so, and that's usually true. They're usually like priests and missionaries and bishops, monsignors, they're cardinals, and then they become a Pope. So they don't really have another sort of thing that they did.

But once upon a time, there was a doctor Pope. They call him Dr. Pope. Good morning, how are you? I would also like to, as I was researching, what is commonly known as the only doctor pope, the only physician pope, there's only been one pope that we accept studied medicine and was a physician prior to his pope life, prior to his papacy. We're going to talk about him. I did have several people mention that there was a long time where there was another pope,

Paul, who was thought to have been a doctor, so there was some discrepancy, like is this Pope we're gonna talk about, Pope John. Hey, are there any anti-Popes in this story? I just found out about anti-Popes when I was looking at the timeline. I'm gonna let you tell people about anti-Popes. Oh, good, I just learned about it yesterday,

so I'm something of an expert. Yeah, so Pope John XXst was the only physician pope. Pope Paul, who was sometimes referred to as a physician, never studied medicine, but was a big fan of sending treatments and cures to friends when they got sick. They'd be like, I'm sick. And he's like, no, I got just the thing for you.

So he was like a freelance, but not a doctor. A hobbyist. We all know a person like that. You're like, man, I was feeling this, you know, I had a stomach ache or my head hurt or whatever. And they're like, oh, oh, oh, I have the best thing for you. Nobody's going to tell you about this. Let me make it up for you. I'll make you a bottle of it. Drink this. You're going to be fine. So Pope John the 21st was the only actual doctor pope that we've ever had. So let's talk about him. Who was this guy?

What did he do? And then how did he become Pope? And of course, there's gonna be some like, you know, conclave intrigue. Conclave style drama, we love it. Of course there is. If you haven't seen that movie, you really should. Yeah, that's good.

It's very exciting. Yeah. So, okay. Pedro. Pascal. No, Juliao. Yeah. So, okay. Pedro. Pascal. No, Juliao. That would have been quite a twist. No, of Lisbon.

Was born sometime between 1210 and 1220. We obviously don't know a ton about his early days. We know his parents and that he was born sometime in that decade. Clearly we don't have a lot of details if we're like, he was born sometime in that decade. Clearly we don't have a lot of details if we're like he was born sometime in this 10 year span. Notorious and cagey about his age, like all boobs. The details are, I mean it's the 1200s, it's a long time ago, details are murky.

He studied at the University of Paris, that's really where we start to like, you can read about what he did and wrote and said is when he's studying at the University of Paris. His life up until then We don't really know I mean back then you really had to do something big Like we didn't have the printing press yet Yeah, so it would be a big deal if you were elevated to a point where we wrote about you

So it at the University of Paris He studied under William of Sherwood or William William Sherwood, who was a famous English philosopher, scholar, logician. This was like Francis Bacon was a contemporary. We're talking about the time where the idea of science and reason and logic is starting to spread again. Like we're about to enter the Renaissance, right? And so we're beginning to- The dovetail.

Yeah, yeah. We're beginning to think about these things again. And of course, William of Sherwood, obviously we would all know who he was because of his very famous mnemonic that helps students remember all of the valid syllogistic forms. Let's Sydney hear it.

Well, Justin, as we can all quote from, you could quote it from memory. I shan't, I don't do it as well as you do it. You've always done it so much better than me. Barbara Celerent, Dari, Farik Priores, Cesare Camestres, Festino, Barco Secunde, Tertia Deropty, DeSamos Datisi, Philapton, Bocardo Ferrisin Habit,

Corde in Super Added, Brahman Tip, Caminus, Demaris, Fesapo, Frescison. Gosh, it's like- We all know it. It's like in my bones, you know. When I read that this was the that you know the most famous Pneumonic poem that all students of syllogism know

Mm-hmm I felt so small yeah, I mean I've never studied You know logic was this you're not a student of syllogism, so why should you be expected to like It's just it was the way as it was presented like you know the famous You're not a student of syllogism, so why should you be expected to like? It was the way it was presented. Like, you know, the famous mnemonic device to, anyway. So my point is that he was studying science. He was studying logic. This was where he began to make a name for himself. He studied with other great thinkers and he began to make a name for himself. He studied with other great thinkers

and he began to be known at that point as Peter of Spain or Petrus Hispanus. And his first work, or Peter of Hispania, there's a lot of names. Anyway, his first work was published under that name and it was the Sumule Logicalis, the Tractatus. And it was a textbook that they used at that point for the study of logic,

mainly derived from Aristotle's thoughts. To what extent do you have to be from Spain to get of Spain appended to your name? If I was gonna be like Justin of West Virginia, would I have to be just the biggest Justin in West Virginia or like the first or how do you, how do you claim that? I mean, he was from Portugal, so. He just rolled up and he was like, now I'm of Spain.

Yeah, I mean, he was studying at the University of Spain. It's kind of like the Commandana got the British accent when she married Guy Ritchie. Exactly, he just got to be of Spain because he wrote a book while he was there. And I will say, I read so much about, because of the time, because it was a really long time ago

and because we don't have all of the greatest written records of everything, there was a lot of debate, is Peter of Spain and Petrus of Spanish and Pope John the 21st, is this all the same guy? Like there is a big, there is a question there. Now we are pretty certain this is all the same guy. We feel very confident that we are talking

about a singular human when we talk about it. But there was a long time where there was a thought like, no, no, no, no, no, there was a Pope who was named, you know, Peter, who was from, not from Portugal. He was from the Dominican and that was this guy. And then this was a different guy. The name switching is tough for history to keep track of, I bet. True.

In the old timey stuff. It's like, which one was this? Because it's harder to keep track of the records, right? So, no, it's absolutely true, and there, and we'll even get into like, there's some dispute as to whether this was actually John the 20th or 21st. So, anyway, the point point is we're pretty certain now that Peter of Spain is the same guy

who would later become Pope. Meaning that this guy who studied logic, who wrote a textbook. About logic. About logic and reason that was used at the time in universities, also then went on to study medicine. And that was pretty normal again at the time.

If you are a scholar and you're studying sort of one field, you're studying theology, you're studying reason, you're studying science, you may move into medicine. You know, kind of an overlapping of all this. Well, everything was still pretty intertwined. We're, we're just beginning the period of the Renaissance. So the idea that we're going to start separating out, especially like religion and science and religious practices and medicinal practices, they're still tightly connected at this point. So him being a member of a religious order and then also studying medicine, even though

we didn't have another Dr. Pope, that wouldn't have been that strange, right? Yeah, makes sense. So he decided to focus on medicine that became his area of interest, and he gained a great reputation after he studied medicine. He became a teacher and a area of interest. And he gained a great reputation after he studied medicine. He became a teacher and a scholar of medicine. He was, there is evidence that he practiced within his community that there were people who went and saw him and that he provided

medical care for people. So he didn't just think and talk about medicine with students, he practiced medicine. And then at one point he published his first medical text, which was called a dietetic treatment of surgical patients at the request of one of his colleagues who said, you know so much about treating surgical patients and I think you should write a book about it.

And he's like, what if you get too busy to help? And he's like, why would I get too busy? He's like, I don't know, maybe, what if you become pope? Just like to pull a random one, you know? Yeah, that's true. Have you thought about that? I'm a local physician. What are the odds of me, a doctor, becoming pope?

I can tell you the odds of me, a doctor, becoming pope. What's that, Sid? Zero. Zero. Yes. Yes. They wouldn't let me. Because you're too busy. Well, that list is long, but. Too busy? Too busy?

I think girl would be first. Okay. In the reasons. Yes. And not American anymore though. No, that wouldn't be a problem. The cheeseburger ceiling has been shattered. Thank you. I don't know though. A pope from Chicago is one thing.

A pope from West Virginia, the world isn't ready. The world will never be ready. No, it'll. No, and certainly not. It's the world isn't ready. The world will never be ready. No, it'll... No, and certainly not a lady pope. A lady pope. A lady pope. We don't let that happen. So his greatest medical work, so he published this and he began to be well known as a physician. But then he wrote the Thesaurus Paparum, which

is also the treasury or pharmacopeia of the poor. So it's the poor man's medical book, basically. Like here is a collection of stuff that the idea is you can put this stuff together, probably in your own house. So here are a bunch of treatments and cures that you could have this book on your shelf, somebody's got a sickness, you look through,

there's something in here you can probably piece together. You can't afford a trip to the Physic-er, you gotta try to handle it on your own. You can use stuff that you can find in your own kitchen or barnyard or someone's body. Or kitchen barnyard, if you're in one room. Yeah. And the owl nests, check the local owl nests,

you never know what sort of engines and treatments you might find. So he collected all of these. And it really like, if you look through it, I've been reading through it and I'm reading through it. It was copied and recopied in old English. I'm having a heck of a time. I will tell you, there's so many cures for eyes.

There are some articles about him, probably written by ophthalmologists, where he is known as the first, or the Pope ophthalmologist, not just the Pope doctor, but the Pope specifically. Yeah, like dibs. And he did, he wrote an entire other book about eyes, but he also wrote a lot about treatments for the eyes in this book.

There's a lot of stuff he wants you to pour in your eyes. And it's always tough, because like the S's are F's in these books. And so it's hard to read what, anyway, I know that like cream made of sheep's milk is popular. There's something with like white ginger and salt pounded together and pouring that in your eyes. There's a lot of stuff that he is trusting

you want to put in your eyes in this book. But there's, I mean, they're really recipes. And now some of them are kind of gross. I mean, very gross. And then there are others that almost have like a magical edge to them. Like you do it at certain times of day, or you know what I mean?

Like they almost, we're still drawing on this kind of time period where everything, I mean, and that's probably spiritualism is what he's connected to as much as he is the science. He's drawing on a belief system. He is, but aren't you like, okay, this is complicated, but like, is at this time period when we have, when we don't have a full and holistic,

like a full and holistic, like a full, complete understanding of all the science that is involved with this, I mean, I think it's easy for us to look back and say that there's this clear, like it's a blend, but like when you don't know it all, you probably are having to take some things on faith, right? There is guesswork and there is like best guesses

and things like faith, right? There is guesswork and there is like best guesses and things like that, right? And I mean, you definitely see that reflected, like it's kind of a mixed bag. He has a lot of science in what he's attempting to do. Like he's trying to use logic, like this works for this and this works, you know, he's trying to apply that. But at the same time, he was still like big

into astrology. So like the planets have a big influence on your body and your health status and that's reflected in there. But on the flip side, he does move us away from like superstition. You don't see a lot about charms or demons or the idea of like, this is a punishment from God versus this is like possession. Like you don't see that stuff reflected in there anymore. So he's moving us away from that. Like I said, he wrote a whole book about eye diseases, specifically, Leber de Oculo.

And it didn't have a lot in it that was right. Well, sure, okay, you know. But I mean, it was referenced and built upon. Yeah, a lot of people read it. Was it, that's something. Michelangelo copied prescriptions from it later on. So like, I mean, it was, you know. High praise indeed.

That's a blurb. Michelangelo says, you know, the reviews were in, Michelangelo says, I copied some pictures from this. I love it. It was a stone in the ivory tower of academia. Yeah. Yeah. But then he has stuff in there where he's like, so he was really famous specifically for something

that he called his aqua mirabilis, Wonderwater. Miracle water. Or Wonderwater is what people would call it. He was a household name. Like you would know this, kind of like Dr. Spock. Now wait, Dr. Spock or Mr. Spock? Dr. Spock from the doctor that everybody used to listen to about kids.

Okay, thank you. Yes, Dr. Spock. That kind of colloquial like folk. You know what I mean? Like everybody had this guy's book on their shelf. And we're talking like people were copying it. This is a big deal. So anyway, everybody knew about Wonder Water. It was either filings of silver.

Sorry, I'm a little disappointed. I thought we were gonna talk about Star Trek for a second. No, Dr. Spock. Yeah, okay. Everybody knew about Wonder Water. It was filings of either silver, gold, or copper in a boy's urine. Sure, yeah, of course, yeah.

So, and there were other, there were gross things in there. Like I could decipher that you could put pig poop in your nose if you had a nose bleed, huh? Unlike the boy pee, there were also some gross things. Well, even, I don't know what's gross, your boy pee or pig poop in your nose. You could drink the ashes of a swallow if you're drunk, turpentine suppositories, I think for fevers.

And then he talks about eating the, and I really tried to Google this and figure out what this is, the lates of a sheep, L-E-G-H-T-E-S. If anybody knows what piece of a sheep I'm supposed to eat, L-E-G-H-T-E-S, I don't know what part of a sheep that is. And I kept trying, I kept getting like, did you mean lights?

Did you mean sheep lights? And then they're showing me like these little like yard decorations that are lit up sheep. And I'm like, no, I don't want sheep lights. I'm trying to figure out what I'm supposed to eat because I'm drunk. I don't know. I'm drunk.

I'm hung over. I need to eat sheeps. He also describes something that he calls an iliac passion, which is probably an early description of appendicitis. That's pretty cool. Anyway, so all of this to say, it was a mixed bag in terms of our modern understanding of disease, but he became a household name

for the recipes that he published that anybody could access medical treatment. So how did this doctor become pope? I'm going to tell you, but first we got to go to the billing department. Let's go. So how did this doctor. So how did this doctor? Well, see, you set it up for me last time. So I thought that like, this time I could reverse it.

You ready? Try it again. Okay. So how did this doctor? Become pope. Wow, that was good, Sid. Yeah, that sounded really exciting. So it's important to understand there was a lot of turmoil in the Church of Rome at

this time. I say at this time as if that was the only time in history where this idea where we have this really powerful church and then we also have all these monarchies and they're all competing for who's in charge as if that wasn't probably always causing some degree of tension, you know, I would imagine. There was a previous pope, Innocent IV, who had excommunicated the previous Emperor of Rome and had created this sort of like,

like split between different factions. There were the Italians and the French who were really like battling for who is gonna run the church, who's going to have like the most influence over the kingdom, over the combined world powers. There was a lot of power at that point because of this excommunication in the hands of the French Catholics and specifically Charles Anjou who eventually would become King of Sicily and was very important. You can read all about this guy if you want to, all of his conquests and all of his

important, you can read all about this guy if you want to, all of his conquests and all of his various- You've got free afternoon. All of his wars and actions, whatever. But the point is, he would use his reign to influence the election of the next pope. This was very common at the time that you would have all these political leaders. And to this day, I would say it's fair that there is a political influence in what is happening in those conclaves and as they're choosing the next pope. Obviously, the fact that we have an American pope right now, we keep talking about, no one,

I don't think anybody knows for certain what that means politically, but it's hard to think it doesn't mean something. It means something, it'll be some to think it doesn't mean something. It means something, it'll mean something. Right. There'll be some sort of impact, presumably. So, yeah. So anyway, at that point, we have a lot of influence

from this prominent French Charles over the church. Charles the French. He would use his reign to influence the election of the next pope after Gregory X died. Sorry, he preferred Gregory X. Greg X. Call me Greg X. Pope Greg X.

Call me Papa Greg X. And Pope Innocent V, who was the next pope to take over, who Charles wanted, was very happy. They needed a break after Pope Greg X. They needed a nice innocent, cool pope. Innocent V. So Innocent V takes over. And he really, he's okay with sort of taking orders from Charles. Like he elevated his powers in many ways,

gave him more, expanded his titles. I don't know, everybody is like emperor and king and ruler and whatever of something. And so he gave him a lot more power and he didn't mind to do that. And Charles was very pleased with this, but unfortunately Pope Innocent V only lasted six months. I mean, they're mainly kind of older guys.

You gotta get some young, young popes, y'all. Gotta get some young popes. So Charles wanted to ensure, after Pope Innocent V died, he wanted to ensure that the next conclave went his way. So he decided we've got to put pressure on these cardinals to do this fast. And if they know I'm watching,

and if also I make it super uncomfortable, the whole conclave process I want to make so uncomfortable that I can use that pressure to get another French guy or another guy who will be loyal to me in this seat. So he issued a series of decrees for the Lyon council for this conclave. And basically not only would the Cardinals be sequestered, which they still are to this day, right?

We know they put them all in there. A lot has been said about how they can't have Instagram, which I guess all the, I don't know if all the Cardinals are on Instagram, but we put them all in there. They can't communicate with the outside world until they're done and have picked a pope and then they can come back out.

That's why they picked it so fast this time. I'd be like, listen, we can't, we gotta get out. Listen, we gotta get out. I'm missing all my stories, guys. We gotta get out. Charles of Anjou did not have Instagram to pressure them with, but what he did have is access to food and wine.

So what he said was, not only are we gonna lock you in this building, by the way, it's July, okay? It's hot, we're in Italy, it's hot. But not only are we gonna lock you in there, we're shutting all the doors and windows. It was said that not a bird would be able to enter this conclave.

So like, and there's no air conditioning, you know, it's 1200s. So it's super hot, and we are going to give you a limited amount of only bread and wine. That is all you get. You get bread and wine and you only get so much. So if you stay in there too long,

you will all starve to death. So I would advise you to pick a fricking pope and be quick about it. Yes. So they did all this, he did all this to pressure them and try to get them to act fast. But it didn't work. They instead did choose one of the Italian Cardinals, which was a big deal because he really was trying to wrestle away all this power from Italy.

So he didn't want an Italian cardinal elevated to pope. But one became pope, Pope Adrian V, but the conclave shenanigans did work in some way because it was so hard on his body, it took such a toll on him, this process, that Pope Adrian V was only pope for 38 days before he passed away. Yes. Now, one of the few things he was able to accomplish in his very short papacy was to revoke all of those rules that had been put in place for the previous conclave. Like, we won't do that next time.

It'll be better for the next guy. So then they had to do another conclave. Okay, well first of all, it was delayed because everybody had just gone home, right? Now you gotta get them all back. And again, there aren't planes or anything. So you gotta get all the cardinals back. So it took an extra like 10 days

than it was supposed to to pull everybody back. And all of the townsfolk in Viterbo, which is where that was the province where this was taking place, were becoming very restless. They're mad, they're sort of yelling in the streets and pounding on the doors, and they want this thing to happen. So there's a lot of public pressure on it,

and there's still a lot of political pressure on it. So everybody's watching this conclave. The heavy favorite was Cardinal Deacon John Orsini, but he was an Italian again. And they really- They changed the pace. And they're scared now because they almost got starved last time.

Right, no? Yeah. Yeah, and so they're like, oh man, we really don't wanna make French Charles mad by letting Orsini be Pope. So in a much shorter conclave than was predicted, the Cardinals decided on a compromise candidate. Can I guess?

Yes. Is it Peter of Spain? It is Peter of Spain, Portuguese Cardinal, Patras, Hispanus, Pope John the 21st. Now, on an interesting note, we are only certain of 19 Pope Johns prior to this Pope, which would make him John the 20th. Wouldn't it be easy to ascertain the John before him,

at least? Well, he was originally, there are some writings where he is noted as John the 20th originally. But then when he died, it was marked as John the 21st. So there's a chance it was a typo, is why this happened. And like an extra line got etched somewhere, right?

That's possible. That's the problem with Roman numerals. Others think that this is because the reign of John the 14th got split in half because he was in prison for a period of time. And when he came out, some people think that we started calling him John the 15th as if like he's all new, like a shiny new pope. But yeah, forget John the 14th, he went to jail. John the 15th as if like he's all new, like a shiny new pope. But yeah, forget John the 14th, he went to jail. John the 15th got out of jail. Yeah, he's a good guy.

So there's a chance. He's learned his lessons. That's why is that the same guy was both John the 14th and 15th. We just sort of divided it up. Others think that it's the anti-pope to Gregory the 5th, who was also called John the 17th. Would you like to tell us what an anti-pope is, Justin? Okay, listen, this is probably wrong, but this is my understanding of it.

It's basically a pope that is elevated in opposition to a different pope or a pope that is chosen by a conclave, usually supported by a sect within the church or a part of the government. That's it, anti-pope. And they think that because there was an anti-Pope that was John the 17th, that this may have thrown off the count.

Yeah, sometimes it's unclear historically which is a Pope and which is the anti-Pope. There's in this time period, there's a lot of anti-Popes running around. There is also a legend that may have influenced this. By the way, I read this whole thing, I don't think, I have no reason to believe this is true, but I do think it's fun to share this kind of legend.

I mean, you know, so just take this for what it is. This is a fun story. There's a legend of a Pope S. Oh. Pope S. Joanna, who followed her lover into the monastery. She didn't want him to leave her, so she pretended to be a monk, pretended to be a man. They took the name John and did so well

that she ascended through the ranks and was named Pope. That's more of a conspiracy theory, maybe. It's a conspiracy theory because the idea is that then she got pregnant and she had a vision that either she could like have the child conceal this whole thing and continue to be Pope and then she'd go to hell or she could admit and then, you know, repent

and then she would be welcomed into heaven. And so she did that and so it was no longer Pope. I don't, none of this is true, but anyway, this was one of the theories as to how the John Count got thrown off. So one of the first things he did was agree that with the last pope that we shouldn't starve the cardinals. Yeah, I'm glad we could reach a consensus on that.

Do you know why, also why there was all this like stir about it, around it? It took them three years to elect Pope Gregory X. That's how long that conclave lasted. Oh, that's so irritating. You can see why there would be this like, can't we make these guys hurry sort of argument. Now, obviously you shouldn't starve them,

but I can understand why they were thinking like, how do we limit this? Yeah, this is ridiculous. We gotta put some time bumps on it. Right. He was not liked by the higher clergy because he was very approachable to everyone. He was easy to talk to and he seemed like a regular guy.

And so the other cardinals and such didn't like him much. He was called learned and silly, a wise fool upon the sacred chair, a man without presence or dignity who loved learning and hated monks. Loved learning? Hates monks. Loved learning and hated monks. Heved learning, hates monks. Loved learning and hated monks.

He did many things that argued him to be guilty of folly and levity and does not deserve commendation unless it be for one thing. And that was that he assisted young scholars, especially the poor sort with money and preferment. So his scholarliness, his education, his focus on academia was actually something that they really didn't like about him. That actually

was a major strike against him. And at the time, part of this is because the study of science and medicine is still kind of magic. It's not magic, but it's very closely related to magic still. We haven't moved to that time period where we can clearly separate like, that is a medicine and not a potion. The two things were very intertwined. So anyway, he was not particularly loved among the other people within the Vatican. He liked the Franciscans and the work that they did for the poor.

He wasn't a Franciscan, but he was a big fan of the idea of helping the poor. He tried to address tithing. Tithing was a big deal at the time. The churches had to send a 10th of everything they collected to Rome, like to the church, right? And he had all these people from mainly Scotland and England coming to him saying like,

can we stop this? Like, can we please? Like, we're all poor here. Like people are rich and we're poor and we, you know, stop taking our money. Fancy place you got here, it's ridiculous. I know, this is ridiculous. And he did redirect money for a while,

but it was to the Crusades. Oh no. He didn't have, and his papacy was fairly short. So he didn't necessarily, you know, achieve a whole bunch of stuff. He tried to unite some churches, he tried to convert some people. He didn't really fight Charles of Anjou,

but he didn't bow to his whims either. And then he found out that there were some documents from Paris and Oxford that were creating a stir. There may be some heretical documents, people were responding to them. Anyway, he was called upon, we're going to send you these documents, we need you to study them and tell us how this relates to the church, to Catholicism, right? So he had had a study chamber built behind the Papal Palace. So his own little, and which again, this was unique.

He had his own little place. His own little study shack. It was an old temple of Hercules and now it's a study chamber for the Pope. And on May 14th, 1277, the Pope went into his study chamber with these documents to figure out if they were heretical or not. And the ceiling crashed down upon him and crushed him.

He died six days later. For a while after he died, people started trying to spread rumors that he was a necromancer and he was about to sell his soul to the devil and that's why the roof crashed in. That's not true. But his enemies did try to spread,

tried to malign his character. Pretty rock and roll though. Pretty rock and story. And I promised Pope Leo XIII would get a mention here. He was buried there. And then really we didn't talk much about him for a long time until 1886 when Pope Leo XIII and the Portuguese ambassador erected a new monument to him because

he was the first pope from Portugal. So. Well, there you go. That's the story of Dr. Pope. He was a doctor and he was the pope. He was Dr. Pope. Thank you so much for listening to our podcast. It's called Sawbones.

Thanks to the Tax Payers for the use of their song, Medicines, as the intro and outro of our program. Thanks to everybody who came out and saw us at the Renaissance Fair. I know we said that previously, but thank you again. Thank you so much. It was such a great event. Yup. That is going to do it for us.

Until next time, my name is Justin McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. And as always, don't drill a hole in your head. Alright! Yeah! Maximum Fun, a workaround network of artist-owned shows, supported directly by you.