Sawbones: A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine - Sawbones: Dr. Scholl's

Episode Date: January 23, 2024

In a continuation from last week, Dr. Sydnee and Justin are focusing on a particular Doctor Brand: Dr Scholl's. Who was Dr. Scholl, what was his medical training, and why was he so interested in fixing feet? Music: "Medicines" by The Taxpayers https://taxpayers.bandcamp.com/

Saw Bones is a show about medical history, and nothing the hosts say should be taken as medical advice or opinion. It's for fun. Can't you just have fun for an hour and not try to diagnose your mystery boil? We think you've earned it. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy a moment of distraction from that weird growth. You're worth it. Alright, so I'm here to write some books. One, two, one, two, three, four.

Hello everybody and walk wow what about that Greg Brady action there? Hello everybody. I'm not Peter. Welcome to, was it Peter Brady? Hey, right. Hello everybody, welcome to Sawbones, your home for the greatest in Brady Bunch trivia. No, this is a marital tour of misdiagnosism. I'm your co-host Justin McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. You really scared me because I would not be good at Brady Bunch Trivia. The movies are fun. Yeah, no, I'm not slamming the show or the movies. I'm just saying I would not be very good at Trivia because I've seen maybe a handful of episodes of the show. The only good Brady Bunch Trivia that I could dig up

is that right when Kings Island opened, they did some episodes at Kings Island. There's like a couple of episodes where they stay at the Kings Island Resort across the way and they go ride the racer and stuff like that. It was a genuine thrill to see, you know, it's very frequent, you know, everybody on TGIF had to go to Disney World.

It was like an episode, like everybody had to do their... Was it Disney World or Disneyland though? It was both, it was ABC. So it's like Disney owns ABCs. So they're just trying to like gin up tourism for whatever park, but they went all the time. I feel like a lot of people on TV went to Disneyland and I knew I was not going to go to Disneyland. Like as a kid, like that's in California. I live in West Virginia.

I am never going to Disneyland was my perspective. So that felt very like, oh, that's a fantasy right there. But Kings Island. Now that's attainable. We can get there. Oh, that's a fantasy right there, but Kings Island. That's attainable. We can get there. RL Stein too, did a novel about Kings Island. The Beast. The Beast, all right, listen.

That's three short hours away. Yeah. Disneyland? It's like a dream. Yeah, we're never going there, but we can get to Cincinnati, no problem. Thank you, Double A Highway. I enjoy you.

Download your podcast before you hit that highway. That's my advice to you. You will not get reception. There is nowhere to be. There is nowhere to listen. There's a McDonald's bank gas station combo in one. And that's your last chance. So when you see it, stop, yeah, stop, cause that's your last chance. Sydney, last week I inspired the nation when I researched the episode of salt bones so you wouldn't have to. And I found, I found sort of the first glint of a story

that I felt like was too expansive for the scope of what I was trying to do in that episode. So I asked you if you wouldn't mind poking into it a bit more and you were kind enough to do me that favor. Yeah, Justin, you asked me about Dr. Scholl. And whether or not Dr. Scholl of foot fame? Dr. Yeah, I mean, I don't know how else you'd put it. Yeah.

Dr. Scholl of foot fame. The foot guy. The foot guy. The foot guy. Is this, was this a real doctor or was this a, I think you already kind of answered like, is this a figurehead? Is this like a made up character?

Cause there are plenty of brands who have made up characters, right? Right. Who aren't actual people, but they invented to sell their product. And then there are plenty of patent medicine salesmen we've talked about over the years who like would have a doctor who worked with them, but was like paid in whiskey

and wasn't, I mean, wasn't a doctor who worked with them, but was like paid in whiskey and wasn't, I mean, wasn't a doctor by our modern standards perhaps. So like, where does Dr. Scholl fall into that? Yeah, I don't know. That's the question that I have for you. So we know it's a real guy. It is a real person. You established that last time.

Yes, unlike, I should mention, Dr. Teal still no answer on the Dr. Teal front. Still no idea if that's human being. And I just wanna say, I should mention Dr. Teal, still no answer on the Dr. Teal front. Still no idea if that's human being. And I just wanna say, I got so many, I knew if I said, if anybody knows, let me know. I knew we would get emails. We got lots of emails. And I appreciate them.

Yeah, but any insight to share? Or were they all full of crap? Like I knew they were. No, they weren't full of crap. They had lots of insights to share. And they were doing the same research I was in a lot of cases. Cause I was also researching this

cause I knew this would be our topic. I wanted about Dr. Teal. I was hoping someone would find out about Dr. Teal. There was one, yeah, no, we did, oh man, you're putting me on the spot. We got one email about Dr. Teal. I mean too. Everybody else, I should say,

everybody else was about Dr. Scholl's. Yes. Like, was that real? No, we got one email from a listener who could also similarly not uncover the truth about Dr. Teals. We have lots of emails from people saying like, yes, Justin. They didn't say it like that. That's how I read it. Yes, Justin. Sometimes they call you honorary Dr. Justin. And I love that. Listen, I don't know that I'm okay with that. Yeah, I don't,

that makes sense. I don't know that I'm okay with that. Yeah, I don't know that I'm okay with that I'm just saying it makes perfect sense you would not like you're making 50% of this podcast very happy and 50% of this podcast Not as thrilled not as thrilled. So I guess even split William Matthias Scholl was indeed a doctor That's what it's a real human real person. Yes doctor. That is that is the the like summary of the emails we got. And I think that that's like a fair, especially if like you do a quick Google, quick search, if you read anything from the company.

Yeah. And so I think what you're, the reason that there's some question or some nuance, and I'm gonna get into this, there's a couple of issues. One, what was our standard for a doctor over 100 years ago versus what our standard is for a doctor.

And when I say doctor, I guess at this point we're talking about a doctor of medicine or a doctor of osteopathy, an MD or a DO. Somebody who achieved a degree in whatever medical field they're pursuing. But I think the other thing is like the bias we have, some of which I would argue is fairly founded against medical professionals

who also become business professionals. Yes. Who also are hawking wares. Yes. Right? Right. And I think that a lot of that modern criticism is well founded, right? Because when I see somebody telling you,

you need this certain thing for your gut health. And then they try to sell it to me at the end of the pitch. I'm much less likely to believe, even if they have some sort of letters after their name, some sort of degree attached to their name, I'm much less likely to believe them because they wanna sell it to me. Right. And I think that Dr. Scholl was one of the first to fall victim to that because I don't, I would say he was more a businessman than a doctor.

Okay. Like if you just look at the balance of what he achieved, I would say that- More notable for his accomplishments as an entrepreneur. Yes, I don't, I'm not saying he was a bad podiatrist. I'm saying that like he was a fine podiatrist, but he was a really outstanding marketer. Yes, that's- Is that fair to say? Yes, absolutely.

So he was born in Indiana in 1882, okay? He was a laborer on his parents' farm. He had lots of brothers and sisters, lots of82, okay? He was a laborer on his parents' farm. He had lots of brothers and sisters, lots of siblings, okay? This is important because I am assuming, I mean, I did not grow up on a farm in Indiana in 1882. Oh, I know, love. But I think there's probably a lot of work that you're doing. In addition to like farming type work,

a lot of like self-sustaining family type work. Like what do you mean? Well. Milking the cows and what have you. Well, the farm stuff, but also just like what goes into raising a family, caring for one another, feeding one another, clothing one another, repairing one another's shoes.

Perhaps some home cobbling. He had a knack for working with leather, even as a child. Shoes, shoes and feet. They droop from a young age. You'd be so careful when you say like somebody was really passionate about feet, because like there are multiple ways to be passionate about feet.

We should, let's just let you know what, just to make it an easier episode of record. We all agree feet are weird. Okay. No, I don't think feet are, no, this is your thing. You have a hang up about feet. I don't have a hang up about feet. I'm just saying like, I feel fine.

I feel fine. I feel fine. I'm feet neutral. We don't have to make people feel weird about liking feet. Some people like feet, some people don't like feet. I think there are lots of ways to like feet. And what I'm saying is- We're only using the first version of liking.

Yeah, he was concerned with the problems that ale human feet and wanted to help alleviate them. That's a different kind of foot interest. Yeah, that compassionate heart for feet. It wasn't necessarily a foot enthusiasm. And there's nothing wrong with being a foot enthusiast. Nor would there be. I'm just saying,

I'm just saying, he went crazy for feet. We just want to say what we're talking about. Right. And but that's, if he had gone crazy for feet in a different way, that is fine too. I don't know why,

I don't know why I would do an episode about that. I just want to say this one. Like that would not be a sol bone. I just want to help. I just want to say this one. I want to clarify every time we talk about just going gaga over those little tootsies We're not talking about necessarily a sexual No, no, he he was like the official family cobbler. He fixed all the shoes. He was good with leather work. He went to

Wolf he went to Chicago in 1900 and started working at a shoe store, which makes sense. He was good with shoes. He was good with feet. He cared about it. And he was, he was, you know, driven to correct foot problems because of this experience, because I would imagine foot, uh, technology footwear technology, I should say, and not foot technology. We weren't engineering feet yet, but we were engineering encasings for feet.

We're probably, it was probably not as advanced as it could have been, right? Like it's 1900. We're not there yet. There are a lot of materials we don't have yet. And so he became very interested in how can I alleviate people's feet problems. And that is when it is said that he enrolled

in medical school in Loyola University. This is a subject of debate. Yes, this is where the question started to get. Did he go to school here? Everyone agreed that he loved feet. This was not up for debate. Well, the question was like, did he, this is where it starts to get a little hazy.

Right, did he enroll in med school? We think. I mean, we have no proof that he didn't. We just don't have the records to prove that he did. But we have no proof he didn't and the records of the time are sketchy. And so like calling it into question, I mean, it already like a lot of other people would have made the same claim and we haven't called it into question. I mean, it already, like a lot of other people would have made the same claim and we haven't

called it into question. I will just say that, okay? And I think underline all this, it's funny, in all the articles I read to try to piece this out, they all made the same point. Everybody's kind of weirded out by feet, and especially if you're talking about, that's a broad generalization, this is a claim made in many of the articles. I again, I'm gonna just stand here and say, I've never been weirded out or grossed out by feet.

I am fine with feet. I don't like, they're not my favorite part of the human body, but they are not my least favorite part of the human body either. I'm just fine on them. You understand this. I don't mind to take care of foot problems. Like if somebody says like,

I got a gross thing on my foot, I want you to look at, there is no part in me that is repulsed or grossed out. I'm just like, yes, show me the weird thing. I don't mind. The like, the screeds like this are normally reserved for people that are being very defensive about their positions.

I feel like in- I think feet get a bad rap. I'm defensive of feet. I don't mind feet. I don't, I don't mind, I don't mind feet. Okay, okay. I'm just saying we need to isolate your last speech as a ringtone that everyone can use.

There's a lot of debate as to if this questioning we have as to Dr. Scholl's credentials are in part related to our, I would say nuanced relationship with the human foot. And the way we do not value it, like we do other parts of the body. And so a doctor solely devoted to the foot would be demeaned unfairly.

There's already some, yes. That's the point. That's fair. Okay. Which by the way, I will say, Shull also had a grandfather who was a shoemaker. And I thought this was really interesting. His father served in the Union army during the Civil War.

Oh, really? And Union soldiers had shoes. This was a big new thing at the moment. They had shoes that were styled for each foot. They had a left and right shoe. That was new. That was a new development. What?

Not all throughout human history, if we had shoes that are footed, That was new. That was a new development. Why? It's not all throughout human history. If we had shoes that are footed, that are foot specific, you're kidding me. No, that was a big thing. And so. Well, that makes sense, right? Because it's really just theorizing, but like rubber is a big part of that, right? Which is a relatively new.

Cause you gotta mold it. And there's so many things that it'd be harder to mold. Yeah. Yeah. Huh. It's interesting, but like- I bet you would probably wear it. And I'm not saying that these are the only example, cause I guarantee you, and I'm not a historian,

I'm an amateur medical historian for comedy purposes, and mainly a doctor. But I would imagine there are other times in cultures in history where they have had footed shoes. I would imagine this isn't the first time, but the Union soldiers having them was a big distinction between them and the Confederacy who did not I wonder if they would become footed over time, right? I'm sure there are other places where they had invented footed shoes before yeah before the Union army, but it was a big deal Yeah, the point is like he had this sort of why was he so interested in feet? It was like a family thing.

It's a family thing. He just, it's a family thing. He loves his family's feet and then he loves other feet. So, he went to medical school and he was really interested in what at the time was called chiroprty. This is the precursor to podiatry. Is there a difference or is it just a difference in nomenclature? Well, there is a difference. While largely a chiropotist would have been interested in the feet and would have done most of the stuff that we would think of as a modern podiatrist job, chiroprty technically is referencing the hands and the feet.

So a chiropotist specialty would be hands and feet. Whereas a podiatrist, just feet. They don't do hands. So it's similar. And at the time, like chiroprty training was not as advanced necessarily as other fields of medicine. So again, going to a chiroprty school already kind of put you at a disadvantage

in terms of like respect from the medical community at large because the schools weren't as rigorous, no medical schools were as rigorous as they are now, certainly, but this was an area that lagged even further behind. So if somebody said like, I am a credentialed chiropotist, they could have actually gone to a school and learned things,

or they could have paid for a certificate that said I am a chiropotist. Okay. So you didn't really know that much. It didn't tell you that much. Right. And so there was more variability, which I think again is what cast this sort of like veil of uncertainty over Dr. Scholl because well, a lot of people say they're chiropotists. But are you really? Are you the real deal? Right. So anyway, he- Which is why that credentialing is so important and why it became more Why it is rigorous and why today like it, but it's really not until if memory serves like 19 aughts, right?

That's like FDA is like 1906 so we're really we're we are right now We're in the 1900 like the year 1900 We're about to get a lot more serious about all this stuff. We are about to get much more intense about medical marketing and credentialing and products and drugs. And like all this stuff is about to be much more highly regulated.

And the era of being able to say, like buyer beware, caveat, mentor, that era is really starting to come to an end when it comes to medical products. I will say though, as a caveat of my own, we're still not there because there are lots of non FDA regulated supplements that make all kinds of claims that are not evidence-based or medically verifiable. So the idea that we have completely moved past this, and now we're in this era where a claim

that you hear about medicine is 100% true, I think we all know, because if you listen to the show, you know, that is not true either. But we were further from it then. So he's going to medical school in the evening, he's still working at the shoe store, Ruper Rupert's in the day to, you know, kind of come up with, I mean, it's like inspiring him.

He sees these problems. He goes to medical school. He's learning the information. He's coming up with a way to solve them. Um, and he's not, he's walking the walk, if you will. He's not just talking and learning about feet. He's there on the front lines every day with his hands on feet. And can I tell you if I was like, if you take a student like this today and give them to me as a, as an assistant professor in a medical school, I am going to be very impressed by a young medical student who is both seeking medical, you know, like there's like pursuing their medical career, seeking medical knowledge, and engaging in first hand work with the thing he wants to pursue. Like that would be very impressive to me.

So anyway, from this, he creates his first thing, the foot easer, the foot easer, foot dash E A Z E R foot easer, which are two pieces of metal that are separated by an adjustable spring. And it goes inside your shoe to provide arch support. Where inside your shoe? Is it like, slide it in there. Okay. Yeah.

Just like you would imagine an insole today, except again, we're kind of dealing with the materials we have available. the arch support. Where inside your shit? Is it like small just on the arch? You just slide it in there. Okay. Yeah. Just like you would imagine an insole today, except again, we're kind of dealing with the materials we have available, right? Like I don't think it was that easy to make some sort of plasticky cushion, gel. Yeah, right. Yeah, insole, right?

We didn't have all the right stuff. So he tried it out on customers first. He had like a place to test these new things. A customer offered him $10,000 immediately. Wow. To set up this business to sell this thing. Not just for the thing. I was gonna say.

Not just for the insult. This is amazing. Sell it to me now. I'll pay any price, $10,000 sold. But he realized, no he wasn't sold because he realized that if it was worth $10,000 to this guy So instead he borrowed 700 bucks from his dad and in 1904 he opened his own Shoal manufacturing company

Where at this point he had finished medical school, but he would work to sell the devices that he To make and sell he's making them. He's sitting in there, he has no heat, he's wrapped in blankets, he's in the Chicago cold. Imagine him like that, working to make these foot-easing devices that he can sell you to go in your shoes all on his own. That's how he started out. Okay. If you're really into capitalism, it's a very inspiring story. If you're really into your feet, listen, I use full disclosure. I use Dr. Schultz inserts in my Chuck Taylor's. Well, you have to.

I'm a 40 year old woman who wears low top Chuck Taylor's most of the time, like as in 98% of my time. Yeah, they're just, they're barely shoes. They're barely shoes, they're made of paper and I love them, I've worn them since high school, I'll never stop, I'll die in these chucks, but I will put Dr. Scholl's gel insoles in them, thank you. I don't know if they feel good, I don't know.

I wanna tell you that. Oh, okay. But first we gotta go to the billing department. Let's go. I don't know if they feel good. I don't know. I will tell you that. Okay. But first we got to go to the billing department. Let's go. The medicines, the medicines that I still need my card for the mouse. From the twisted minds that brought you the Inventure Zone, balance and amnesty and graduation and eithercy and steeplechase and uterus space and all the other ones the McRoy brothers and dad are proud to reveal a bold vision for the future of

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Same bat time, same bat channel. And bats, I see what you did there. People say not to judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree. Which is why here on Just as You Have Us, we judge them by so much more. We rate animals out of 10 in the categories of effectiveness, ingenuity, and aesthetics,

taking into consideration each animal's true strengths, like a pigeon's ability to tell a Monet from a Picasso or a polar bear's ability to play basketball. Guest experts like biologists, ecologists, and more, join us to share their unique insight into the animal's world. Listen with friends and family of all ages on MaximumFun.org or wherever you get podcasts. Sydney, you've ruined so many things for me on this podcast, and I'm just, just wanting to know if you're going to add touchsholes in this gel inserts to that list.

I think it's, I'm gonna, we're still at the point where he is just now mass producing these in order to make money off of them. And in theory has his medical degree, right? I think any product like this, and this is true for a lot of supplements too, where it was manufactured long before anybody would have like thought to do a study on it.

It starts to get tough to tease out if it works or not, right? Because once something becomes pervasive enough, whether or not it really works, it gets really hard to fight that. People believe in things. Yeah. And I think it's something that we still try

to untangle on this show. Why do people believe in products or supplements or traditional remedies or things like that as strongly as they believe in, I don't know, some sort of faith of some sort. Yeah, I know that. But I mean, you really bump up against people who have deeply held like family traditions

of a certain thing works. And I think, I mean, it might be a little hyperbolic to say that Dr. Scholls fits into that, but tell people that those insoles don't work and they will call BS on you every day because they use them, lots of people use them and they feel nice, they feel good. They do.

My feet feel better when I use insoles than when I don't. Your insoles like walking on a squishy cloud. My feet feel better and I will say that. Do I have, did I do a study to tell you that my feet feel better? No, I wore them and my feet felt better And I'm telling you my anecdotal evidence and that cat is so far out of that bag That bag is disintegrated and gone. There's no there's no why are we putting cats in bags anyway?

What why do we put cats in bags? It's a great question So he wasn't satisfied with one product. No, why would you be? No, he's gonna make, yeah, no, he's gonna make others. His motto, early to bed, early to rise, work like an advertise. Can I say that? I said, H-E double hockey stick. You just did.

Maybe I bet Rachel believed it out. Work like heck, an advertise, that's what he said. He would go store to store. He realized pretty quickly that the best people to sell his products were shoe stores, other shoe salesmen and women and people. And so he'd like to get his products into shoe stores. So he went to shoe stores and he'd walk in

and he'd pull a human foot skeleton, a human skeletal foot, a foot, a human foot skeleton, a human skeletal foot, a foot, a human foot skeleton out of his pocket. And he'd show the salespeople how delicate the human foot is. You got 28 bones in there. And they're all just like, look at them wrong. It's a delicate, beautiful machine, the human foot.

It's not just like a platform that carries us and it needs proper support. And just like we support our machines, we need to support our feet. Just like we support our government, we gotta support our feet. Well, I don't know what to say. And he realized pretty quickly

that he needed more sales people. So he would recruit people. So in first he started with family because his brother Frank would go on to create other products and become a big figure in the company, especially since Dr. Scholl would never marry. I should, I should preface with that. He wouldn't have like a child necessarily an heir to pass the Dr. Scholl fortune. Now you are Dr. Scholl. But his brother and then multiple brothers had children that they could then continue on in the Dr. Scholl. But his brother and multiple brothers had children

that they could then continue on in the Dr. Scholl family name, right? So he would do these, so he would start this correspondence course for salespeople. And basically it's like, have you ever wanted to know about the human foot? I bet you have.

Have you ever wanted to know how to like, everybody's like, oh, my feet hurt. And you could tell them things that would help them with their feet. I've always dreamed of that, Sydney. It's like, it was like an amateur podiatrist school at first, cause you weren't gonna be a podiatrist at the end, you were just gonna be an expert

in foot problems and foot solutions. As long as those foot solutions were products made by Dr. Scholl. And then you would go sell people these products made by Dr. Scholl. And then you would go sell people these products made by Dr. Scholl. So he very early like created this school where you could earn some certification in foot knowledge and then also sell products for foot ailments. Like a professional shoe enthusiast, a card carrying shoe fan, foot fan.

And he would go on from there. I mean, that's the other thing. Like he started with something that sounds very like, well, this is kind of craven. Like this is just to sell your product. But he did in fact establish the Dr. William Imshol College of Podiatric Medicine. So he didn't just create like a correspondence course for salespeople who had some foot knowledge, right? He, he, it was real. It was real. like a correspondence course for salespeople who had some foot knowledge, right? It was real, it was real. He started a podiatry school.

A physical building? Or was it more of a correspondence? No, he opened a school right down the street from his factory where you could come and study and learn how to be what was now starting to be called a podiatrist. So we're at this, and again, I think this is what adds murkiness to these waters is

We are at this sort of turning point in the field of podiatry where it's moving from chiroprty to podiatry And where it's becoming more regulated and dr. Scholl is helping create that And so if he if you're an innovator in a field How would you be respected by your predecessors in that field who are still clinging to maybe outdated modes of, you know what I mean? So like there's some rationale for, well, he was just a doctor who other doctors slammed because he was different, you know?

And he carried a foot skeleton. He did carry the foot. In his pocket. Which I mean, I can see without it. I don't think all the time, but when he went to sales calls, it was a prop. You always had it. You know, like on Shark Tank, they come out with all kinds of weird stuff.

Oh yeah. So that was his product. Yeah, that makes sense. It's the same idea. He went before the sharks and he was like, sharks, I have a human foot in my pocket. And then he pulled it out. He wants to pay me for it. And Lori Grineer gave him a golden ticket

or what does she have? She's got a coin. I don't know, I don't know. I don't know, I don't know. I'm going for Lori's gimmicks. Sorry, go ahead. Anyway, so because of all this marketing that he was doing and he opened this school

and so he's training new people kind of in his tradition, there were a lot of people in the medical community, especially the podiatric community who were like, this guy's not real. He is not real. This isn't right. It is beneath us to sell products at the same time that we diagnose and treat people, which I will say like early on Dr. Scholl was still doing consultations for people, but as time went on, he moved further and further away from that and just marketed his products. Like he did less practicing of medicine. He just used that expertise to market products.

One thing he bumped into pretty early, one problem is that his foot easer had to be fitted for every foot individually. And if you were not trained at one of his, like either his school or his correspondence course, you wouldn't know how to do that. And so they would get sent back a lot. And that's extra money, right, to resend them. So he invented the Scholes Archfitter,

which was a product that he gave out for free on his own dime. He made this, and you can look up pictures of this machine that basically like shows exactly the curvature, the arch, you know, like you put your foot in and he would give these to shoe stores. Like this is on me. And then you know exactly how to fit people's feet

for my product to reduce the number getting sent back, which I think was again, a really clever marketing strategy. And that was really like, as he grew, and even as the medical community started condemning him at the 1923 meeting of the National Association of Chiropotis in New York City, there was a resolution passed that basically said you cannot manufacture

and sell anything related to foot care if you are basically for an upstanding member of our association. And so specifically they were banning Shoal. You can not only, is ours for real, you can buy one in eBay for a hundred bucks if you want. Just go get one. There you go. So even as his products were being banned and basically everybody else in the community

was kind of standing up and saying like, he is not the real deal, he just kept on going. He continued to create new products because beyond like, arch supports and a lot of that, what he did just sort of responded to what materials were available at the time, what was easy to get and source, what new rubbers and plastics and things were being made over time. And then he went on to like other foot problems, like foot powders for, you know,

sweaty feet or smelly feet, things like that. You know, all the other, and a lot of it had to do with like the popular shoes of the day. There were a lot of it had to do with like the popular shoes of the day. There were a lot of, as we move into times where women, specifically, you know, feminine presenting people were expected to wear very, perhaps beautiful, but in practical shoes, which I don't know,

has that gone away? Not completely. But things like pads for corns on your feet would be very popular and discreet and you could buy them secretly and continue to wear those lovely high heels with the pointed toes. But it's your secret.

And you do, it's funny cause you can see sales of products like that wax and wane with shoe trends. But he was meeting all of those different needs for the feet and people were buying it. And he was a very clever marketer. He was one of the first to start selling shoes in a way or products in a way where you could go in

and pick things off the shelves as opposed to asking someone from behind the counter to grab it for you, to have like multiple of an item on a shelf that you could pick up and from behind the counter to grab it for you, to have like multiple of an item on a shelf that you could pick up and carry to the counter. He was one of the first to come up with that model of a storefront. You know, it's interesting that they're still doing,

shelves are still doing stuff like this. I remember, I don't think it's there anymore, but I know for a long time our Walmart had a kiosk that you could stand on it. Do you remember that? You stand on the thing and it makes a heat print of your foot. Yeah. And then it tells you like,

here's where you're carrying the weight. Here's the exact number that you need. This is like your perfect in-soul. It was that combination of like this sort of scientific academic approach defeat along with the marketing. Because on the marketing end, like, I mean, at the same time he wrote books,

he started a whole medical journal. He started his own medical school, but he also had a national advertising campaign for the girl with the most perfect feet. So he did a Cinderella contest to advertise his products. Right? So like, well, it was the mixture of all of this together, which simultaneously got people excited to buy his product and had him condemned by the medical community

at large, right? By the way, he ran the company and at times would still see patients for over 40 years. He created more than a thousand patented ointment sprays, cushions, pads, support, shield springs, all kinds of things to go in your shoes as well as shoes, right? Dr. Scholl sells shoes, eventually. Shoes themselves. Like eventually the shoes, the orthopedic shoes would be sold. It was an empire. And I mean, really some of his marketing stuff was ahead of its time.

Like with national campaigns and things, he was kind of the forerunner of a lot of modern marketing in that way. And so I think he's almost a more important fixture in that piece of history, like marketing advertising history than he is in like, I don't know, foot history. Because at the end of the day, like did these products work? We were kind of taking his word for it.

Now, I will tell you that I looked for studies to see, like, has anybody tried to see do these things work? Like, are they, cause the company's not gonna go back and do that, right? If everybody's buying their inserts, why would they go back and prove they work? What's the point? There have been small studies

that have looked at small numbers of people wearing the insoles versus not and like, does it improve pain, gate, just like, I don't know, general comfort in walking, wear and tear on your feet, the development of calluses or corns, things like that. And generally, yes, the inserts tend to work. These are small studies and a lot of this is subjective, right, the inserts tend to work. These are small studies. And a lot of this is subjective, right?

Write your pain. It's like, it doesn't feel like there should be, I don't know, we're talking about the difference kind of between like therapy and comfort, right? Like, is this, I guess just alleviating, I mean, are they spinning comfort as therapy would be my question. Like, is it just like, oh, that feels really nice

and squishy. It's not really like treating the issue, but like it is providing like comfort, right? It just feels better. Like, which I guess is a, is that a medical treatment? If it like makes your feet feel better, is that medical? Or is that just a comfort issue? The subjective relief of pain is definitely,

Yeah. I mean, that's definitely a goal. Like if you look at any study of anything that we do, whether it's a pill or a procedure or a shot or an insert or device, I mean, if it is to treat pain, part of the marker of was it successful is asking the patient, rate your pain before, rate your pain after, rate your pain after.

Is it better? I mean, it has to be, I mean, that's some of the problems with pain, right? Like it is inherently subjective. Sometimes the dogs need, sometimes we ignore the dogs. Maybe it's easier to just give the dogs a little love because nobody else is doing it.

Dr. Schultz is there. We'll do it. We'll give the dogs some love. But I will say at the end of the day, whether or not was he a doctor, I mean, he definitely graduated, like there was proof later on that he did, he did go to a medical school. There is a little discrepancy as to,

he graduated from the Chicago Medical School in 1922. And it looks like he was already operating as a podiatrist prior to that graduation date. And so then there's question as to like, well, did he finish or why was he already functioning? Like why was he claiming this title even before he technically should have received it? You know what I'm saying? Like we get into some of that. And then if you read part of the criticism, it's because they didn't value those medical

institutions at the time. At the time, the schools he attended were thought of as like sea level at best in the grand scheme of things. Because we weren't taking it seriously, right. And so like, if that's the best you got, I mean, listen, I'll put myself as a doctor up against anybody else. I know what I'm doing. And I didn't go to an Ivy League medical school. I didn't go to the medical school that's listed as the top of all medical schools. Yes, that's true. So I get a little defensive of Dr. Scholl in that regard.

Yeah. He was a doctor. By modern standards, there are a lot of people who were doctors in the year 1900 who were not qualified today, right? It was a very different time. Did Hippocrates have a modern medical degree? No. What is he considered the father of medicine,

at least in the Greek tradition? Well, it's because he had no one to give an oath to. I'm just saying, like, if you're an innovator, if you're revolutionary, and like also, if your main concern might be selling foot products to people, are you gonna get a little shade there in your way? Absolutely.

Because everybody's so hung up about it, everybody's so weird about it. Dr. William Scholl was a real guy who really went to medical school and really made foot products for people that I anecdotally feel allow me to continue to wear Chuck Taylor's well into my middle age years. Well past the point.

Well past the point. The physician recommended. When adults should be wearing Chuck Taylor's. Thank you Dr. Shull. Thank you so much. And thank you for listening my friends. We hope you have enjoyed yourself. We always enjoy this time with you. Our kids were in school exactly one day last week because of the snow. So honestly just having a little time to chat with my wife. I'm happy you all could be here but it's nice to just get to not be with our kids. I love our, I love our children, but I think they're even sick of us now.

I like everything in measure, you know, I can deal with just about everything in doses. Small doses. They're over us at this point. They're like, we just, we just want to get away from you guys. But thanks to taxpayers. She's, their song medicines is the intro and outro of our program. And thanks to you for listening. We appreciate you so much. That's going to do it for us for this week. Until next time, my name is Justin McRoy. And thanks to you for listening. We appreciate you so much.

That's going to do it for us for this week. Until next time, my name is Justin McRoy. I'm Sydney McRoy. And as always, don't drill a hole in your hand. Alright! Yeah!