Sawbones: A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine - Sawbones: Lisztomania

Episode Date: August 19, 2025

Before the hysteria of Swifties and Beatlemania, people were getting hype over the handsome pianist Franz Liszt.  Dr. Sydnee and Justin talk about what exactly about this artist made regular fandom escalate into a mania and what this medical condition actually meant.Music: "Medicines" by The Taxpayers https://taxpayers.bandcamp.com/World Central Kitchen: https://wck.org/

Sawbones is a show about medical history, and nothing the hosts say should be taken as medical advice or opinion. It's for fun. Can't you just have fun for an hour and not try to diagnose your mystery boil? We think you've earned it. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy a moment of distraction from that weird growth. You're worth it. All right. Sorry is about some books.

One, two, one, two, three, four. Two, three, four. We came across a pharmacy with its windows blasted out. Pushed on through the broken glass and had ourselves a look around. The medicines, the medicines, the Estelle and McCormack. for the mouth Hello everybody and welcome to Sawbones

Amarital Tour of Misguided Medicine. I'm your co-host, Justin McRour. And I'm Sidney McElroy. I'm actually, you know what I'm going to do, Sid? I'm going to lower my microphone volume just to a scotch because that's the level of my energy, of my excitement to be recording this podcast with my wife. We were on vacation.

We had a beautiful time in South Carolina rejuvenated by the sun, the surf, the sand. And the doing of nothing. The doing nothing. But here we are doing things again. Because we can only keep up the doing nothing for about five consecutive days. That's it.

That's it. No, it's good to take a break and do nothing every once in a while. I think for all of us, turn your brain off for a little bit. I didn't do nothing. I did nothing from the perspective of the capitalist machine. I actually did important work on my soul. Right. I read a book.

Yeah. And I rested. and I stared at the waves and contemplated. Prayerful contemplation. Existence. Yeah. So it was a great week of relaxation, but it's time to get back to business. Back to business.

Now, a big event happened. Crime doesn't rest and neither do we. A big event happened all over, but especially here in our house the other night, we had some friends over to watch a podcast. To watch a podcast. To watch a podcast. Yes. Because it was a very special podcast.

Yeah, about Taylor Swift. And I recreated a. We recreated that on this week's My brother, my brother, mate. Did I tell you that? I just, I took down the questions that Jason asked. Uh-huh.

So, because I figured that's going to be the most popular podcast ever, so I could learn it to feed the masters. So I was just asking, I just used those exact questions to, I believe I told you not to do that. You did, but we made it fun.

Uh-huh. You got to be careful. The football men will never listen. No, the football men won't listen. Captain Haddock from Tintin can't find me, Listen, we have a Swifty in our house. We have a daughter who's a Swifty. It's coming from the side of the house.

I have a sister who's a Swifty. We have many dear friends who are Swifties, and you do not irritate them. Don't irritate them. That's kind of my role for all the women in my life, but yes, especially the Taylor Swift fans. Yes. But it was a big event here in our house because of all of our adjacent Swifties. Not that we're not. I appreciate her music.

Yeah. I knew she was struggle when she walked in. Yes. But I think that, like, we're talking about, like, the fandom, you know, and that this was a big moment, and this is adjacent to our topic. This is where I'm going with this. Yet you're looking at me, like, what are you doing, Sydney? Why are you talking about them? That's just for you. Okay. Okay. And I was taught, and I just think it's important to notice that this wasn't just about, like, we like this person's music. She's like a cultural phenomenon, right? And so. It's a moment. It was a moment. It was a moment. It was a moment. I was a professional podcaster. was embarrassed it was happening on a podcast. I was like, we shouldn't do this here. We need a larger. This is bigger than podcasts.

I think I stood on the couch and said, this can't be a podcast. I make podcasts. If this is a podcast, what do we do? No, listen, everyone has a podcast and there's space for all of us to do what we do. Honey, in this exact moment, I cannot have you quoting the title

of my failed podcasting book at me. I beg of you right now, this is, I'm so vulnerable. You do not understand how bad the green-eyed monster is running rampant in my soul, honey. You can't talk about the book right now. There, we got an email from a listener, Kate. Thank you, Kate, about a topic that, and I'll be honest, as I delved into it, I thought, ooh, this will be a fun little medical, weird historical thing.

And it's maybe not as medical as our usual topics. But it's interesting. It was treated as a medical issue at the time. Okay. And I think it's relevant to things like, you know, fandoms like the Swifties. So we're going to talk about Listomania. Have you heard of Listamania? Okay.

When you said that, the only thing, and it's like probably a, I don't know, I hear the one part in that one Phoenix song where they say Listamania. Right. But you don't know what they're referencing. I don't remember the song. I remember that was a name of a song on the album as well. That's like literally when you say listomania I hear

Listermania Yeah, it's interesting because to me the idea of like a fandom like a collective that's more than just like hey do you like this band

oh me too cool but like you know like as a force it feels like a very modern idea because I kind of connect it with the internet like how do you coalesce that

without the power of the World Wide Web. You know what I would say, Sid, I think that what the web has enabled us to do is make those sorts of connections at that level of enthusiasm about smaller things. You know what I mean? Like Beatlemania, obviously the one that pops in.

I think that can happen on that scale because of the size of the thing, right? And then you can have smaller and more niche fandoms because it's easier for them to find them each other these days. Right. Which is evidenced by the fact that occasionally TikTok will surface to me a clip from Greece too. Yes. It's also evidenced by the fact that I have a career where I'm gainfully employed doing what I do, where in a much more just age, I would have been some sort of street clown or a poorly regarded dock worker. But this is not merely a modern convention. The idea of fandom's obsessive, and when I say obsessive, I'm not, that can be like a critical term.

I just mean something that would, your love for something would become so emotionally overpowering that you would demonstrate that in a very like public dramatic fashion. Sure. Does that make sense? Where do we go from, this is the kind of music I like to this is the only thing that I'm thinking about? Right. Right. Okay, so let's go back to October 22nd, 1811. Whoa!

Kingdom of Hungary. Sorry, I was thinking about doing more of a time tunnel thing. Oh, like a time tunnel. Like I was thinking about more of a time tunnel on sawboats that we could start doing. Oh. Okay, so can you say any? Okay, so let's go back to October 22nd, 1811. Whoa.

Oh, do I have to do it with you? I would love you're in the timetum blur with me. I'd rather not. Sorry, what? I would just I appreciate your accent so much that I'm not going to make you get the time dumbler with me I'll steer the time tumbler and you're a cool calm and collected

okay you can steer actually and you're like focused and I'll just like grab the walls like whoa okay I'm programming in the date this is the last time tap tap top October 22nd 1811 oh oh oh wow okay we're in the king oh we're still

we're still going we're in the kingdom of Hungary Fron's List is being born I don't have a lot of details about the birth But that's where our story starts He's been born And so everything can come from there His father was an amateur musician

And so he encouraged List to pursue music Because he loved music He wasn't making a career off of it Gosh Some things are just Careful the things you say Children

But it turned out he was a prodigy Hmm 10,000 hours I see No I do You have to wonder It is like it turns out You know what's crazy guys?

I made my son play piano all the time And he's a prodigy It turns out I'll be darned he's a prodigy at it And he was performing publicly by the age of nine Should we tell our kids this? Honey You joke but every time I read a story like this I'm like six, we're hosed

No way! We're done! It's over, we missed it. He was composing by 11 Charlie just turned 11 We're homes We left it She was proud that she made her bed today We screwed up

Aw, she was It was so sweet They're reading a book in class About the importance of making your bed Or something I don't know Anyway So and there's a story

Where he did a public concert Where he was 11 And Beethoven was there And afterwards he like came up On stage and gave him a kiss On the forehead Like yes Talk about a different era

Excuse me Excuse me Mr. Beethoven That's my son It is possible that this story is untrue Anyway the point is he was celebrated I like that at the end of the anecdote After I've already done the jokes

That's much better thank you That's good That's good I always like to note that on sawbones We try to only spread truth And so when I tell a story that like Historians debate this Like it may be but probably not

But, like, it's not, the point is he was celebrated. After his father passed away, he had, like, this period of his life where he was sort of, like, introspective and wandering and drinking and smoking, and he wasn't sure what, I don't know, music, is this my thing? You know, you know, we all go through it, right? Like that, yeah, right? And then, uh, he saw the great violinist, uh, Paganini perform in 1832, and he realized he is great at that and I want to be great like that. But at P. A band. No, he didn't start a band.

No. He just said, like, I want to also be a virtual show, a genius. That's dang, if that's all it took, huh? And so he started practicing a lot more and, you know, composing a lot more and performing a lot more. He married a countess, and that was a big deal. He challenged another pianist, Thalberg, to a public. Sorry, I didn't. Sorry, say it again?

He challenged what? Another pianist. Oh, okay. Sorry, go ahead. I'm sorry, I misheard. This is sawbones. And I misheard. Yeah, we don't, we don't do genital jokes on sawbones.

I wasn't even, I just missed heard. I know that on some of your other podcasts, that sort of humor, that sort of toilet humor. You're bringing puerile energy, squid. Sorry, it's not me. So he challenged another pianist, Thalberg, to a... What? Thalberg. Thalberg.

That was his name. It's just hearing. It's just hearing. to a public piano duel because he had criticized him he had said some stuff like I don't know I think it's kind of boring and the other guy was like

excuse me just because you're all dramatic doesn't mean I'm boring I'm just really good at this and so then they had a public duel like where they played pianos they tried to see who could play the quietest it was a pianisting contest you feel good about that

yeah actually I do All I could think of, I was picturing this, a public piano duel. And you know, and who framed Roger Rabbit? 100%. That Daffy versus Donald? Yes. One of the craziest scenes that it even exists is honestly kind of a wild thing. But yes, 100% honey.

It's frame by frame, perfect into my memory. Yes, and that is exactly what I'm picturing these two doing. If you're interested, because I was reading, like, who won? Like, who did critics think was better between these two guys, whose music, by the way, I was not familiar with prior to researching this episode, who was better. And it seemed like it was kind of a draw. Like, there were people who said Thalberg is like the, like, more trained, like, better, like, classically better of the craft. But that list brings this sort of, like, new dramatic energy to it that was intriguing. And so.

And he's doing stuff with the face. He wouldn't believe. He pulls these faces. And he's like, ah, or, whoa, it's amazing. This isn't far off from why he was popular. We're going to get into this. So, anyway, I guess it was kind of a draw. Everybody was like, I don't know, they're both good at piano.

Why did we do this? That was kind of the sense. Because we like piano. And everyone was like, yeah. And someone's like, somebody, please invent TV. But then after this, this is when his life started to change. So he was, like I said, he had married this countess, and things weren't going well. separated from the Countess. He was out there on his own. He's a single guy again, you know,

composing and... Oh, listen, you don't need to tell me how it is when you're a single guy out there composing on the town. And he's touring Europe and he does all these concerts in Berlin in the winter of 1841 and 1842. And at this time, he becomes very popular. Like as he's touring a lot and performing a lot, people really start to notice him. So I don't know. know if it's his new like single guy energy maybe it is uh you know the piano is such um a sexy instrument a romantic instrument um you have to have extremely long fingers from what i understand to be really proficient at it and people love that uh and then that could be it the mystery of the that so i i don't i don't know that it was that because there might not have been that

there were lots of i mean at the time obviously the idea of somebody like twilight pouring and playing piano would not be weird, right? There were lots of, you know, composers. There were lots of people doing that. So, like, why was he attracting so much attention? And so it's interesting if you read about his performances. First of all, like, I mean, I guess he is just coming off of this, like, broken marriage. So maybe it is sort of like that.

I can do it with a broken heart energy. Okay, we love that. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I could be the next miss lists. But there also is a lot written about the way he performed. So at the time, performing your classical music, you would sit and you would play your songs. And it was all very buttoned up.

And, you know, I mean, it was a, it's a conservative affair. Like, you're not, you dress nicely, you sit. It's chamber. It's chamber music. Yes. This is a chamber. And this was not the way List performed. Oh, no.

So it is noted that he was very handsome. Oh, my. You can look at pictures of him and decide for yourself. You know I am right now. He was thought to be very handsome. He had long hair and very nice features, and as he would play, it was described that he would toss his long hair back frequently and run his hands through his hair. Oh, this looks like kind of your type of guy, and he's like kind of...

Does he look? Oh, I didn't think he looked like you. No, no, oh, thank you. No, like your kind of guy where it's like that dark broody guy. You like that kind of like effeminate broody guy energy. He did have a dark... I mean, look at this man. Look at this man.

He looks like... I mean, like, what would you say? Like a sad... Okay, kind of like... I don't know. He's got Tamlin energy. It's like a little bit. He does look like Tamlin.

Like, kind of like a Roger Daltry in like his older era and younger. He's kind of like a little bit Draco Malfoycoded, I would say, if that makes sense. So he's got kind of like the aristocratic nose. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What, you know. Very elegant. He looks cool.

Looks like a cool dude, honestly. Even in his older years, his hair just kind of got, like, wilder. I don't know, man. Yeah, so he's got, like, yeah, he's got, like, the long hair, and he would, like, as he would play, he would, first of all, he would make, like, he would look at the crowd. He would make eye contact. He would make faces in reaction to his music. It wasn't just sort of, like, the, like, grimly, you know, focused, like, pounding away at the keyboard. He was, like, he was putting his whole body into it.

It was like, bum, bum, bum, bum, and he made it more like, bum, bum, bum. Yeah, a little, yeah, he put a little spice in it. And he would, like, toss his hair around. And he would make eye contact. I think he mentioned that tossing of hair so many times people are starting his and talk about it. Like, if you read in the articles about it, like, he would. That was a big thing.

The fact that he would, like, and, like, people would write about watching the performance and how many times he, like, ran his fingers through his hair and then began to play again. And as he began to do these concerts all over Berlin, he got a reaction that previously we had not seen to other great pianists and performers of the time. And hence the beginning of Listomania. So I want to tell you about this cultural phenomenon, Listomania, and what we sort of draw from it today. But before we do that, we got to go to the billing department. All right, let's go. So far this, honey, you said it was light on the medical, but like, I do not know why this man could possibly be medically related.

So people began to attend his concerts in droves because they heard about, you know, how great his music was, but also how, how, like, handsome he was. That was a big thing. And they started to observe, especially, women reacting in a way that at the time would have been very inappropriate and odd for women to act in public at some especially at a piano concert right so women begin to fight over like getting closer to him trying to get to the front row uh trying to get his attention during the performance trying to jockey for positions um he he noticed that this and would begin to like sort of stoke that by leaving his gloves or his handkerchiefs. Oh my gosh. I love that.

Where women could like fight to get to the stage and get them. Or so inclined men, Sidney. This is an enlightened era. Certainly. Certainly. But women began to like fight over these things that he would leave behind. And I mean, to the point where they described situations where like he left a hanker on the piano, and women, like, tackled each other, grabbing at the handkerchief and

ripping it to shreds so they could each get a piece of his handkerchief. There was another performance where he had a glass of water, and he, at the end of the performance, he left some of the water still on stage, and women rushed the stage to take a sip from the glass that his lips had touched. I love that. And again, I know that this sort of like behavior like kind of, you know, fans of a musical artist or like at a concert, people kind of going wild. This doesn't sound odd by today's standards, right? Like we all go to concerts and we see our favorite artists and we're screaming and we're yelling.

Now, I have never attempted to rush the stage at a Weezer concert to like grab Rivers glasses or something. Like I wouldn't do that. But no, I would never. I would never, I would never. But I can see where like, again, by today's standards, the idea that a fan would really try to get close to some. I mean, like, we know that happens. When Travis is at Fall Out Boy, he isn't thinking it's an arms race or a scene. He's thinking it's a concert and I'm enjoying it.

But I'm not going to try to go up there with my best friends, Pete and the gang. And the gang? Join him on stage. I wondered how many names you were going to be able to drop there. You would think because of the Teen Titans episode, I would know more. I don't know. Uh, there was, um, there was a, people noted that he would smoke cigars. And so it was not uncommon for him to like toss his cigar stubs out for women to like battle over to keep as a souvenir. I mean, can you even, which, I mean, that's a little grody to me. Like, can I take home your. Hey, let me have your stub and cigar stub. Um, and, uh, women began to like, I love this to wear, uh, like, uh, little cameos of him so like merch yeah this is like merch no literally like he there was merch made

around him which again at the time this was very odd this is not I mean my man we're it is 18 early 1840s yeah but my man's in the enamel pin game like represent like I respect to you my friend thank you for that thank you for those pins that put a lot of food on my kids plates thank you can you imagine that that was the origin of this where all of these ladies dressed in their finery, you know, usually very demure, very mindful. And instead, they are screaming and yelling, throwing things at the stage, tearing at his handkerchiefs, and wearing dainty cameos with his face depicted on them to his concerts. You ever think about, sorry, brief aside, just about the demure thing.

you think about language and how like ideas get attached and how hard it is to like trace the origins of language because it's so malleable and obviously things have not been on the TikTok scale of like virality where we can spread the ideas so quickly but like it's wild to think that there will be a time and it may not be permanent but there will be a time where like as a culture if someone mentions the word demure it will be tied to the word mind like someone else will say mindful And in 50 years, we may still be doing it And not know why we do it It's just like, I don't know, man We just always say demure and mindful together I don't know why we do it That's just the way I feel it feels weird If someone says demure

And I don't also say mindful at some point One woman famously Gathered one of his cigar stumps This was a common thing And put it in a locket And had it monogramed That's cool Like diamond encrusted FL

That's cool Franz List and wore it around. Which, again, by today's standards, this is very, like... I don't honestly, by today's standards, I'm jealous. We don't get anybody like this. You know what I mean? Like... Because you don't.

Well, I mean, this... And I think, I don't know, that would be... I guess you could generate that energy with a live podcast. But, like, he's playing piano. And again, there was something very physical about his performance. I mean, that's clearly communicated. There was something about it that elicited passion in the audience. With all due respect, I don't actually need my wife to sit here and just explain to me why playing piano is so much more sexy than podcasting.

I do get it, but I would love to move on. So in response to all this, in response to these performances, the, you know, excitement around him, there were fainting spells. There were ladies not acting the way ladies act. So there was a writer Heinrich Hein, Hein, who would write these, there were these inserts that would kind of go. in like newspapers of the day to like fill you in on popular culture things that were happening

and he wrote musical they were called this is a French word Foutons Foutons Fjtons So little inserts about like

Hey I saw a concert And here's what it was like Kind of thing right Like review Little reviews Little reviews I get the sense Reading them

I read through a bunch of his about different composers, and there's a little bit of, like, I don't know, e-news energy to them. You know what I mean? And just a little, a little catty, just a little. Catch you a little bit. Yeah. And in them, he coined the term, like, he watched Franz Liszt perform, and he said it has

invoked a listomania. That's really good. And I think what's important to understand about that, because when you hear Listomania in this context, and then, of course, you think Beatlemania, because we exist now, and it doesn't feel like, okay, so what's the big deal? Everybody really loved it, and he said list of mania. To use the word mania at this time and place in history was a big deal. Right.

If I had to guess, it's sort of one of those things where like the mania, the teeth have been taken out of the word because it has been used in this pop-sci sense for so many years. Yes. Right? Yes. Nowadays, we can say mania at the end of anything, you know. Because of this, I mean, you know, probably in part because of this. Like, obviously there's different, like, appending mania did not begin with listed mania. Right.

But, like, for sure. Yes. And so you can say that at the end of something now, and it doesn't necessarily mean something major. Now, at the time, the idea of a mania was a lot, I mean, it was a medical condition. The idea that someone was manic experiencing mania over something or experiencing just the concept of mania would mean that they were acting in a way that was irrational, maybe, confusing, maybe dangerous, dangerous to themselves, perhaps, acting in a way that could cause themselves harm, acting in a way that might bring harm to others.

I mean, if you said someone was experiencing mania, you would take that very seriously. If you got a, well, you wouldn't get a phone call, but if you got a letter, like, I'm so sorry dear lady, your cousin is experiencing mania, you'd be very upset by that, right? Like, that's not something that you would... I won't mention it is listomania, but still, all mania. But the other connotation with mania isn't just that it was a medical condition that would need to be treated in some way, and perhaps, especially among women, not just treated, but maybe we needed to put you somewhere to keep you away from people, right?

So, like, a woman experiencing mania this time in history may be institutional. Because she is a danger to the fabric of society at that point Because the other thing about mania is that it was thought to be contagious So if if I as a big list fan show up at the concert and I am a woman And I am you know I probably not throwing underwear I didn't read any reports of that probably like throwing my handkerchief right like I don't know Eddie fours all those old and I'm I'm wearing the cameo and I'm screaming and I'm doing unseemly things for a lady of the time. Perhaps the lady next to me, who otherwise is an upright citizen, would do the same thing. And so when he wrote that there's a list of mania, this was a big deal because what he is saying is he is invoking something in society that will change the way people act, specifically women, and other women will also become infected with this.

And we will begin to see changes among the way our ladies behave. And this is a call to action, in a sense. We must stop this. We've got to stop people. Yeah. And I will say, I mean... I would be interesting to test the contagious theory in a... Just like get a list fan in a room with someone who's never heard his music before

and just see if she could like just stand near her long enough. Like, you get it, right? list right Franz list look at his hair right no no no you can't have any oh it's got to be contagious right so she can't be reacting to let you just have to be near

you just have to be near the person who has Lysomania just to see if they like get it it's like being a Dors fan you know what I mean they're not made they're born you know you just are a Dors fan or not maybe it's like that it's just like you're around the person you're like I don't know who Fran's list is or what he does but I am crazy about it but I am am sold. Get me a lithograph and an enamel cameo. I'm crazy for this guy. I'm in for it. Where are his cigar butts? So, and if you look at some of the critics of the time, a lot of them talked about how his music was different. Sometimes it was discordant. Like he was experimenting with different styles and different compositions that were unique. And not everybody,

liked them. Like, if you read a lot of the music critics, they will all say, and again, these, largely men, so I don't know if that colors their review, but they would say, like, it's not really for everyone. This isn't as easily digestible as a lot of the music at the time, which everyone would

say, like, that was beautiful. It wasn't always beautiful. Sometimes, it was challenging, and some, and that spoke to the culture of the time. A lot of people think that it had to do with the attitude of people in northern Germany and the Berliners and that they had a different, like that we were changing

society at this point. They were looking at like challenging conventional ways and that this was sort of a counterculture. List represented account. And so the, the mania that evolved around him was, it's like we're using this as an excuse to be new and different and change. And so we're using the mania as a way to like tamp down this like social shift that we're not maybe crazy. about. But people took that really seriously. There was a, in a Munich paper in 1843, one one reporter said, list fever, a contagion that breaks out in every city our artist visits and which neither age nor wisdom can protect seems to appear here only sporadically and asphyxiating cases such as appeared so often in northern capitals need not be feared by our residents with their strong

constitutions. So you see Munich, southern Germany, saying, we will not be infected by the contagion. Same from him. List mania, list of mania like the Northern Germans will. But I think that it, if you then like fast forward, so eventually, and I will say like,

List was very popular for quite a while. He ended up with this sort of tortured romance where he fell in love with a married woman and she had to go get her marriage annulled by the Catholic Church and then they eventually refused. And so then he entered like a monastery for the last of his life

and just composed away in a monastic excel somewhere, writing his tortured songs all by himself. And so he was this very romantic figure. You know, people were interested by that, intrigued by that. Eventually, obviously, his popularity waned. And there were other musical artists. But it does sort of give us a roadmap for when you fast forward to like Beatlemania, where you saw, you know, people at Beatles concerts famously acting much the way that we described these people at lists concerts, you know, behaving. And I think what it just sort underlines is this this idea of mania being used as a way to stoke fear about cultural change and shift people are acting in a new way yeah and we can use popular culture to help explain that

for us or give us oh like a cover i'm only acting that way because i'm so wild about this music when really we're acting that way because we're we're changing we're moving forward we're progressing um and i think that's really fascinating nowadays we don't hear the word you know if I don't think anybody says Swiftamania about Taylor Swift. I bet you could Google it. There's got to be something, right? But, I mean, it's the same idea. People were super excited to watch that podcast, who would never watch that podcast because they love her so much.

But when you hear that, you don't think like, oh, my goodness, they're dangerous. Although, I would say echoes of this during the election when Taylor Swift famously came out and told people to vote. And then you heard a lot of voices from the conservative side saying like Taylor Swift is indoctrinating people and she's dangerous. It's the same idea. It's the same. I mean, we're calling on that same idea that people really loving something and using it as a way to explain them moving forward and progressing and changing culture and society. There are always going to be establishment voices who say, this is dangerous. Hey, I have a question as we were looking at the, you were talking.

about some of those individual anecdotes and they're very specific and it made me wonder like this is somebody who was you know making merchandise had different ideas about like how to grow his career do you wonder about if the the his people or him himself were like fanning these flames like were these stories encouraged like you think about who is in charge of history for this stuff. I wonder if some of these specific stories were preserved because he or the people managing him

like wanted the narrative. I definitely, and I'm not an expert on list, certainly. I've read a lot about him to research this episode, but I'm certain there are people who know a lot more about him than me, obviously. But I got the impression from what I read, from quotes from him,

from people writing about his performances, that he was, if not encouraging, certainly not discouraging this sort of discourse around him. I think he did understand that he was doing something beyond playing music, that performing and becoming a cultural figure is more than just whatever your craft or skill is,

that you can build something around it that can change the way people see you and see music and see culture. I think he understood that. And, you know, I think in the grand scheme of artists and performers, there are differences in that, right? Like, there are some people who just grind away and are super skilled and do what they do so well, but aren't necessarily trying to build a culture around them. And then there are other artists who pursue that.

I always think of Jimmy Buffett when I think that. Yeah. Jimmy Buffett was beyond a musician. He built a lifestyle. And Franz Liszt did it too. Thank you so much for listening to our podcast. We hope you've enjoyed yourself. I sure enjoyed having you here from being honest.

Yeah, and I'll do, I'll get more medical next week. I was just so fascinated once Kate told me about Listomania. It's the show. It's your show. I think the idea of Mian. Listen, if the Kelsey brothers can do an episode about Taylor Swift on their football show, certainly we can do one about Listomania. We'll get more medical next week.

Don't worry. I'll get something gory or gooey or bloody for you. Thanks so much for listening. Thanks to taxpayers for use their song, Medicines is the intro. outro of our program. Thanks to you for listening. That's going to do it for us. Until next time, my name's Justin McRoy. I'm Sidney McRoy. As always, don't drill a hole in your head. own network of artist-owned shows supported directly by you.