Sawbones: A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine - Sawbones: Lobotomy

Episode Date: August 9, 2013

Welcome to Sawbones, where Dr. Sydnee McElroy and her husband Justin McElroy take you on a whimsical tour of the dumb ways in which we've tried to fix people. This week: We take a load off your mind. Music: "Medicines" by The Taxpayers (http://thetaxpayers.net)

Saw bones is a show about medical history, and nothing the hosts say should be taken as medical advice or opinion. It's for fun. Can't you just have fun for an hour and not try to diagnose your mystery boil? We think you've earned it. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy a moment of distraction from that weird growth. You're worth it. that weird growth. You're worth it. Alright, time is about to books. One, two, one, two, three, four. We came across a pharmacy with a toy and that's lost it out. We were shot through the broken glass and had ourselves a look around.

Some medicines, some medicines, the escalant macaque for the mouth. Wow! Hello everybody and welcome to Saw B my name is Justin McAloy. I'm Sydney McAloy Sydney is a licensed medical doctor and every week we take you on a tour through the annals of medical history to look at all the dumb weird hurtful ways that we've tried to help people over the years. And although I am a medical doctor as Justin pointed out, I am not using that degree in

any way during the recording of this podcast. But my dad, I told him that. That's true. You just felt the need to point it out. I thought I would. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm just proud.

I'm just proud of you. I like telling you, buddy, who'll listen. That's sweet of you. Thank you. Do me a favor, Justin. Tell me, Sydney, anything for you. I like telling you, buddy, who'll listen. That's sweet of you. Thank you. Do me a favor, Justin. Tell me, Sydney, anything for you. Close your eyes. Okay.

Are they closed? They're closed. Okay, I'd like to whisk you away if I could. Okay, I'm ready to be whisked. To London. Oh, blind me. Oh, blind me. Clop, clop, clop, clop, clop, clop, clop. Excellent. I was really hoping.

I was really hoping you would do an accent. That was really where I was going with that. Oh, good blind, McGovernette. Okay, but it's 1935. It's 1935. I've got a for now. That's what everybody said in 1935 and legend of the time and We're at the second international Congress of neurology Gentlemen gentlemen quiet down. We're at the second thing for congresses of Mediology neurology neurology Gentlemen, which was surely the swing and his party that happened in 1935. I have to get So so your city name what I have to imagine is kind of like a big I don't know like a big hotel conference room

Yeah, really uncomfortable chairs like Really Carrier yeah, flat screens everywhere in 1935. Just protecting the screens. You're all drinking from abnormally large goblets of water, eating the most flavorless roll you've ever eaten. Everything's in black and white. Everything's in black and white. Right. You're smoking, of course. It's 1935. Everybody's smoking.

Everybody's smoking. And two scientists step up on stage. Okay. Fulton and Jacobson. No, do I know these guys? No, you don't know them. Tell me about my character. Let's get back to me. I was like a scientist from a doctorate. You're a neurologist.

Placed by his own rules, do you think? No, just a regular. Neurologist's only played by neurology rules pretty much. So you're at this Congress because everybody's really excited about the frontal lobe of the brain. It's all a buzz. That's the hot topic this year. The frontal lobes.

The frontal lobes. Everybody wants to know, what do they do, man? What are they responsible for? How can we mess with them? I don't get it. Frontal lobes. What's the such? So you're excited.

You're on the edge of your seat at this neurology conference. It does sound like me. And Fulton and Jacobson walk up on stage and they start talking about some like primate experiments they've done with their two primate buddies, Lucy and Becky. And they've been doing a series of experiments on them and the main problem that they kept coming up against is that Becky can be kind of a bee when she gets mad.

A little bit of a hot out of the collar. Exactly. So Becky, every once in a while, when they don't give her a reward during an experiment, like throws a tantrum, like you do, gets mad, rolls around on the floor, poops everywhere. Sounds like me. Pretty much like you. So they weren't making a lot of progress in their experiments because Becky was causing so many problems. Becky. Becky. So they did, you know, a very rational thing, which was how that gave her a long talking to. Well, sort of, they actually cut the frontal lobe of her brain out. That would not be my first choice. No, most

of us probably wouldn't go that. I'm a scientist. But what they observed afterward is that she became very calm. And the way they described her is that it was like she quote, joined a happiness cult. That sounds promising. So basically, they presented these findings, not really insinuating anything. Just everybody's all excited about the frontal lobe, and they removed a frontal lobe. And they got this really angry primate

to get really calm and docile. And they thought that was interesting and it may give us some insight into what the frontal lobe does. So they presented this. And the way the story goes is that there was a man in the audience named Antonio Egoz Moniz. Now I don't know with him, should I?

Well, you don't yet, but you're gonna know. This man stood up, and this story is probably apocryphal, but he stood up and he raised his hand and he asked the scientist the question, well, if it works on monkeys, could we not apply this to humans who also maybe have behavioral problems, you know, murderers or psychopaths? And the way the story goes is that the scientist scoffed to him and said, well, of course not, the human brain is much too complicated. But Dr. Moniz, he did not take this as the final answer. He had other plans, much like all great thinkers.

He was not going to be stopped by the judgment of his peers. Absolutely not. He would go on to become the father of the lobotomy. The first man who later that year performed it. Sydney, I want to know about lobotomies. I guess I hope I've come to the right place. So lobotomies were originally called luke otomies just so you know. So if you ever see that reference, luke, leu, c, as in like the root for white or clear, so slicing into white matter or clear matter originally.

Essentially, it's a procedure. Does autoimmune cutting into or removing? Slicing or removing. Basically, it's cutting away parts of the brain. We're mainly focusing on the frontal lobe when we talk about the procedure that's done for psychiatric purposes, or that was done. It was really, the first official lobotomy as we came to know it was done in 1935, although there were, I'll tell you about some earlier attempts. And it was really popular throughout the 40s and 50s, pretty much stopped

by the 70s and isn't really done today. When did it come into fashion? The idea of psychosurgery or doing some kind of procedure on the brain had been kind of kicked around for quite a while. A Swiss physician, Berkhart back in 1888 had attempted it. And he had come up with a theory that there were kind of three different parts of the brain. There was the part where we take in input, the part where we make associations about that

input, and then the part where we perform functions like the motor area. Basically, he thought if you could remove the association part, you could cure mental illness. And he was also one of the first ones to kind of see mental illness as an organic problem, a problem with brain chemistry that maybe could be fixed by altering the brain, which was an important thing to note. So he had six patients, he removed different parts of their brains, and according to his results that he published, two got quieter.

Yeah. Two were pretty much the same afterwards. Okay. One had seizures and died following the procedure. And he felt like one got better. Now, said, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm no scientist, but it does seem to me that this whole idea of three areas of the brain, that's wrong, right? Right. Right. Well, no, there aren't just three areas of their brain. There are many, many areas of the brain. It is true that there are general, you know, parts of the brain that are responsible for different functions, you know, that you can play out, for instance, when you see a stroke, a stroke that happens and, you know, the

left part of the brain that controls motor function will make you get weak on your right side. And we understand those kind of connections, but no, there aren't just three areas. It is true that there's input areas and processing areas and parts that control function, but no. He comes out, he does six of these and says, hey guys, great news. One person got better. And he claims a 50% success rate based on his results.

Not so much. Not so much. But what was the reaction like everybody was really excited about it? No, actually people weren't excited. A couple other docs tried to follow in his footsteps. They failed and everybody kind of thought he was a quack. It wasn't until this conference in London where you visited earlier. I remember it well. That people really began to consider the idea of psychosurgery. It was probably because of the context.

We had entered what is known as the heroic period of medicine. Heroic, how do you mean? Well, for a long time, people just kind of felt like they would fall victim to disease that a lot of illness was kind of beyond our control. You know, we're talking about an era before, you know, the scientific method, before antibiotics, before, you know, a lot of the ways to prove treatments and cures

before we do anything. Yeah, I mean, as we've covered in our previous episodes, we didn't know much. And so we got into this period of time where people said, you know what, I'm tired of just sitting by and waiting for stuff to happen. I'm gonna do something. I don't know what I'm gonna do.

And I'm almost certain it's not gonna work, but it's better than sitting back and doing nothing. I'm not just gonna keep chilling on my couch. I gotta cut something open. Come here. That was pretty much it. And a lot of the time doctors were, you know, lauded for attempting things,

even if they absolutely were killing people as a result, just the fact that they were trying was. They gave it their best shot. Yeah, they gave it their best shot. So, you know. What more can we ask? So, in psychiatric medicine, as we go into the, the early 1900s, people began to, you know, psychiatrists who had become very frustrated feeling like

they weren't able to help their patients. They didn't have any tools. They didn't have any psychiatric medicines at this point. So we really didn't know what to do with people who, you know, had mental illness and we didn't know how to treat them. So they just began trying everything. You know, of course, lobotomies are what we're talking about, but you gotta know that this was a time period where people were giving patients malaria to treat insanity. What?

Giving patients malaria because they had mental illness. They thought the fever would cure them. They put people in drug-induced comas for days to try to, they thought deep sleep therapy would fix them. They put people in the insulin shock, gave them massive doses of insulin to put them into hypoglycemic comas.

They would do all kinds of seizure-inducing medications. This was also the invention of, you know, ECT, electroconvulsive therapy, but that's a whole other topic for a whole other day. So in addition to all this, they thought, well, you know, there are parts of, if we look at people who have brain damage or seizures, we know there are parts of their brain that, you know, aren't functioning correctly. Some of that they probably gathered from autopsies, right? I mean, looking at parts of the brain and seeing where these clots were and stuff like that.

Absolutely. And so they thought, well, it kind of makes sense that if we know there's part of the brain, if we believe that mental illness now is an organic problem, maybe we can remove the source. And they had seen that removing the frontal lobes of animals caused changes. And so they thought, well, maybe we can do the same thing with

mental illness, maybe we can remove parts of the brain and cure it. So Moniz, and he really based it on the idea that it wasn't so much the cells, the brain cells that had gone wrong, because we didn't understand neurotransmitters and serotonin and dopamine and all that. Well, we still don't, for a lot of it, right? I mean, a lot of that brain is still... Well, you don't. Affair enough to it.

It's okay. Go on, go on. But he thought it was the arrangement. So it kind of makes sense that distorting this arrangement would, you know, fix things. Like where, you mean where the, I don't understand what you mean. Like he thought, okay, so the, you know, the I don't understand what you mean like he thought okay so the you know the all tissues made up of cells and we knew that at this point so I thought the brain cells weren't dysfunctional it was kind of the

patterns the way that they were arranged next to each other and the strings of them okay so we thought well if we kind of cut him up, that'll fix the problem. Or at least change the problem. Or at least change the problem. So he did his first surgeries in Lisbon. He actually didn't perform them. Yeah. His fingers were so crippled with gout that he couldn't do it.

So he had to have his assistant do it. Yeah, I've used the excuse before. Oh man, I don't know. My guy, I wanna cut some of his questions brain out my gouches. I really wanna play this video game today, but I can't cause my gouch. It really got, I do that all the time.

My gouch's flaring up. Got gout, I just. Sure. So he, initially he was injecting ethanol into the long fibers that connect the frontal lobe to the rest of the brain, ethanol, alcohol. He would just inject it right in there.

ETOH? Yep, ETOH, that's good. He did this, his first case, he declared a complete success, said he cured her depression. It is worth noting that she was never discharged from the psychiatric hospital where she spent the rest of her life. But she was worth noting that she was never discharged from the psychiatric hospital where she spent the rest of her life. But she was happy.

But she was cured. She's in a really good mood about it. He started experimenting with instead of just injecting ethanol into the brain. And we're talking about, you remember our upset on trepidation? Right. So they would trep in into the skull.

They would drill a hole into the skull and then inject alcohol into the front part into the into the skull. They would drill a hole into the skull and then inject alcohol into the front part of the brain Then they when that wasn't doing great. They drilled more holes into the skull and then took a Lucatome, I believe is how it was pronounced, which is just a long Instrument with like a loop at the end and kind of cut holes just a long instrument with like a loop at the end and kind of cut holes throughout the frontal lobe. I mean, I know people back then were idiots.

It's not like today when even a common man like me understands pretty much everything about medicine. I mean, I know back then people were dumb, but they knew, I mean, like they had to know to some extent that what they were doing, that they were, that they were experimenting to a larger extent. I mean, like they were not going into each of these with first due no harm in their minds, right? I mean, they were hoping to maybe not do harm while they were in there, but I mean, they had to know. It's tough.

I agree with you. I don't think that you can go in to a procedure like that with, you know, first, do no harm, pre-mum-known in a serum on your mind. Again, that's why you got to think about it in the context. These were doctors who had nothing to help their patients and they thought this would help and they were willing to risk it. Now, to be fair, these patients weren't able, you know, these were people who had nothing to help their patients and they thought this would help and they were willing to risk it. Now, to be fair, these patients weren't able, you know, these were people who were at the time so mentally ill.

They probably didn't consent or not consent. And a lot of the cases, it was the family saying, yeah, go ahead, do whatever. We don't know what to do with them. So, you know, I wouldn't say that they were trying to do harm or that they were intentionally experimenting using patients as, you know, the father for their research, but they certainly weren't thinking about the patients

as we would today. You may not say about all of this. Suck it, old dead dudes. You just got burnt. Welcome to Justin's Griddle. It's a new segment on saw bones where I put some of you SOBs on notice. Watch out the grills. Justin Justin's coming to get you in 1935. The grittles coming for you in 1935.

And the thing is too, he would publish his results. I mean, even his results. So you did this to about 20 people for everything. I mean, anxiety, depression, catatonia, mania, schizophrenia, whatever. And he said, well, about a third or completely cured, about a third or better, but not completely cured, and about a third or the same. It's pretty good. Now it is worth noting that he published side effects of the procedure as being increased temperature, vomiting, bladder and bowel incontinence, diarrhea, ocular affections such as tosis and nistagmas, as well as psychological effects, such as apathy, acinesia, lethargy, timing, and local disorientation, which means

you don't know where or when you are, kleptomania, and abnormal sensations of hunger. I miss some of my brain. I got to steal. And I'm hungry. I'm hungry. In addition, it also left some people completely detached from humanity and void of any personality. Yeah, because the brain hurt. He always said that what he maintained is that these symptoms were temporary, that they would go away, and your patient would get better. And it certainly made the patients more docile, and this is probably why it was continued to happen in psychiatric facilities, because patients who were combative or violent were certainly not combative and violent afterwards.

That's not to say that this was better, but they were easier to care for, which is a terrible, terrible reason, but there's there it is. And even though he was met with incredible criticism, he actually won the Nobel Prize for this in 1949. Ah, nice job, Nobel Prize. Now I'm putting you on the griddle. You're next. And you know, the thing is, it's crazy because if you look at this period of time while he was doing this procedure and while as I'm going to tell you, it really took off in America. Other countries were not in agreement.

In the USSR, it was banned in 1950 and essentially called a crime against humanity. It was banned in Germany, it was banned in Japan, and this is when it was in its height in the US. There were many countries that just completely thought of it as a terrible thing, and there are many people publishing this, but... At least there were dissenting voices, that's something, I guess. But when we're talking about the history of lobotomy, you really got to talk about the US, because over the course of the 40s and 50s, we did a total of about 40,000 lobotomies in the US throughout all the years.

At the peak, about 1951, we were doing thousands. One physician was doing as many as 25 a day. The main doctor doing them in the US was Walter Freeman. He had his partner, James Watts. They learned the technique from Moniz, brought it to the US, and then they perfected it in the way that many people probably negatively associate with lobotomy today. Which is what? So Freeman felt that it was unfair, that this was a procedure that needed to be done in an operating room under anesthesia, you know, with technicians and sterile procedures and

all that, because the problem is that in a state hospital, in a state mental facility, they didn't have all those resources, right? So it was a solution. Well, the solution was to try to, instead of moving the patient to the hospital, let's move the procedure to the patient and make it something that you could do, essentially in an outpatient setting. Meaning. Meaning that you don't need an operating room to do it, you don't have to put the patient to sleep.

So, okay, what's... So, in order to do that, you can't drill into the brain. You have to find a way to get to the brain without drilling a hole in the skull. Oh, man What did we do? So Dr. Freeman went home one day and he dug through his you know that big utility drawer Everybody's got in their kitchen. It's not where you keep your silverware. It's where you keep like your my flashback Your bottle opener my mudler So he dug through his drawer and what did he pull out? Tell me.

An ice pick. He pulled out an ice pick. He went to the fridge or the fruit basket. I don't know. Where do you keep grapefruit? Ice locker. Where do you keep grapefruit? Are those ones that, do they ripen on the counter?

Or do they ripen in the fridge? I think. I don't have a clever song about those like bananas. Let's go in fridge. So he went to the fridge, he pulled out a grapefruit, and he started practicing the first transorbital lobotomy on a grapefruit with an ice pick in his kitchen. Where's that inspiring montage?

Once he felt he really... You got the touch! He just stabbed in grapefruit after grapefruit. How exactly he decided he had you got the touch. He just stabbing great fruit after great fruit. How exactly he decided he had perfected the procedure on the great fruit. I got it. It's beyond me. That was the one. But he he felt like he could do it. He invented an orbit home, which is a nice which is a nice pick that you insert through the medial, which is a nice pick. Which is a nice pick that you insert through the medial, which is the part of your eye that's next to your nose. You insert through that part of your eye, not through the eyeball itself, next to the eye.

Go up along the nasal bone until you're in the frontal lobe. No, I'm out. And then you kind of just swirl it around. There was a procedure for it where you made certain cuts. I mean, it wasn't just random, but if you were to watch it, it would look like a guy inserted in an ice pick through the corner of this other guy's eye and then swirled it around his brain and then repeated on the other side.

Okay. So this is a weird question that I don't know the answer to, but I know you probably do. Is the brain like that squishy? Like, cause you've gotten your hands on a brain before. Is it that squishy that it could be like scrambled like that? Cause it seems like it'll be beefier to me. No, you're just making cuts on it essentially. Okay. If it's sharp, you're swiping through it and making cuts. Which is what, well the idea is that he's cutting through

those same fibers that connect it to the rest of the brain. Now who knows what you're actually doing. And I mean, he would do this, you know, he weren't doing this under anesthesia. Usually you would give the patients some electric shock therapy, which would, you know, make them unconscious for a while, and then hold them down and do this procedure. He used to impress his students. He was ambidextrous and he used to like to impress people by doing both eyes at once. Guys, we have mistreated the mentally ill for so long in this country. Stuff like this just turns my stomach. It's really horrifying because once he

perfected his version of this procedure, he actually took his family on vacations all over the country. He liked to visit national parks, and he would drag his family along with him and stop at every hospital on the way to perform lobotomies at the local hospital and teach the physician there how to do it. So he just traveled the country, cutting up people's frontal lobes.

I mean, doing thousands of them. He's like a sort of like Johnny Apple seed, time. Oh yeah. It's a horrible Johnny Apple seed. Yeah, kind sort of like John the Apple seed. Oh yeah. It's a horrible Donnie Apple seed. Kind of like a crappy John the Apple seed. The worst John the Apple seed. But he the thing is you have to know, not to not to completely curse Dr. Freeman, God rest his soul. But he he did receive many many thank you notes from the families of these patients. The families, and some patients actually that survived the procedure and could still talk afterwards, said that they appreciated what he did for them.

Now the problem with that again, he actually indefense once when he was being called the Tataq for what he'd done, he went to one conference and dumped out a basket of 500 Christmas cards that he'd received over the years from various families as evidence. I thought for a second, you were gonna tell me that he dumped that Christmas cards, he was gonna send to all of them. These were for you.

These were for you. But now you don't deserve them. I won't even send you a Christmas card. You don't believe in me. Obviously the problem with this is that families and psychiatric facilities enjoyed this procedure because you're a loved one who previously was mentally ill and suffering from the side effects of that illness

that was uncontrolled, because we didn't have medication or anything, would come home and be kind of like a mannequin, and wouldn't cause any more problems. And as one physician criticized at the time, well then we may as well kill them, if that's what we're trying to do, is make them easier to care for.

We're taking away their lives, we're taking away the who of them. So, said, what all would we use this for? I mean, what was this this treatment for in the time? Any kind of mental illness could have been victim to lobotomy. I mean, anything, you know, anxiety, depression, any kind of mood disorders, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, certainly. But it was also used for mental retardation in some cases. It was used for dementia. Some patients were treated this way because they were homosexuals.

So you're saying it's something of a cure all. Yes. And what have we learned on sobans, if nothing else we've learned that cure all's cure nothing. Yeah. Absolutely. And one thing is to like three things that something fixes,

that's when you need to just take a step back. Whoa, whoa, whoa, this doesn't seem right. That faces a lot of things. And especially when you see a procedure that was done disproportionately on the, the vulnerable, you know, members of society who were suffering from mental illness and were unable to, you know, kind of speak for themselves. If you look at some European countries, it was done largely on women, young children. So, you know, members of society who can't stick up for themselves at the time. And again, you know, some patients would claim great success, which would spur it on for a while. But finally, of course, the pressure against it was overwhelming. I mean, when we have, you know, the USSR and

Germany and Japan, many other countries calling it inhumane, finally by the 70s, it tapered off, and stopped being performed in the US. So we don't have lobotomies today, right? There's not like some weird faction of... No, no. It's sticking by it. People certainly aren't doing lobotomies

for psychiatric disease like they used to it. And a lot of this in the 1950s, the mid 1950s, we started to invent psychotropic medications, medications to cure, why not to cure, but to treat, I should say, mental illness. And at that point, this fell out of favor. We do certainly some low back to me, so I will say, it is not impossible

to remove a part of the brain or to create a lesion You know some kind of kind of damage to a part of the brain to treat severe forms of epilepsy in some cases or I think a lot of people are familiar with some of the stuff We've done for like Parkinson's and stuff. Yeah, right, but they're certainly different. These are very different procedures Michael J. Fox had right a A small section of his brain removed. Well, uh, not removed. There's a standard. Oh, it's like a pacemaker, right? Like a brain pacemaker.

He did have that. He did have that. Um, but there's also a treatment for Parkinson's where you can cut. You create a lesion or you kind of damage a little part of the brain. Okay. In order to treat certain diseases. But that again, this is all very different from the lobotomies that we're talking about. So this cat just keeps it, it's no more price, is he so?

Yeah, people have been calling for years to rescind it, and it's never been done. I think the position is that we stand by what we said at the time, but it's interesting, some famous people fell victim to this. JFK sister Ros Rosemary, was lobotomized at the age of 23. A lot of people theorized it was actually for mental retardation, but nobody's really sure what it was for. Tennessee Williams had an older sister who had a lobotomy performed, and a lot of his writings were inspired by that that she went through. And then one story that a lot of people like to quote is the inspiration for LaBottomie.

Have you ever heard of Phineas Gage? Yeah, actually. Tell me about him. He had a, he had some kind of head injury, right? Like, I got some sort of head, head trauma and it changed his personality. How do you know about that? It's almost green. You're such a cheater. So if any of his gauge back in 1840A was a railroad worker,

had a spike accidentally driven through the frontal lobe of his brain completely survived the accident. No problems, other than he underwent a drastic change in his personality. And a lot of people thought that this is where the original idea for lobotomy came from, because he had his frontal Obdamaged and his personality changed but he survived

But that actually isn't true There you have it another theory It's been torn wide open by saw that absolutely leave your misconceptions at the door It's a it's a really interesting history. I think a lot of people wonder where I ever came from. I know for me, my only interaction with it was, I always think, a one-floor over the kukus nest. But it really was a time when doctors thought it was better to do anything you could for

a patient, even if it was going to harm them than to do nothing. And not to me mean that the doctors were blameless because they were targeting people who couldn't speak for themselves. And they were using them as guinea pigs. And I'm just glad we're not doing it now. Yeah, me too. What I am glad we're doing is solbos every Friday. And we thank you for joining us yet again for another

heartwarming brain separating episode. Boy, we need a happy one. Let's do like a fun one next time. We'll do a fun one next time. These past few have just been so so bummery. We've used medicine. That's not your fault. We've used medicine. You don't realize how we used it sort of institutionally to keep people down. A man uses it as another tool. Like like like like bank loans. Well, I think it's been important as we now hopefully

physicians see themselves as partners with their patients. They're working together so that everybody can have a more quality life and that we're not these kind of paternal figures that just know what's best for everybody and do whatever we can to fight death and disease all the time. I think as medicine shifts from that kind of viewpoint and more towards a place where we're all working together and we're just sharing what we know and what we've learned and trying to help out. I don't know, things get better.

That's all we're doing, trying to help out. If you'd like to help us out, you can head over to iTunes and give our show review. God for a show, appreciate that. Sydney reads literally everyone. Yeah, no exaggerations. Sydney reads everyone and it really does mean the world to her. So if you get it, thanks so much guys. Yeah, if you get a chance to do that, just right now,

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Who we grew up with. Hopefully, me, Julie Hay. Julie Hay, yeah. Thanks for listening. And thank you to everybody out there who's been sharing the show and tweeting about it. You can tweet about it with the at-sol bones user name. Just, you know, share the shows, have and listen to this.

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