Sawbones: A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine - Sawbones: Matilda and Telekenesis

Episode Date: June 16, 2026

Dr. Sydnee is joined this week by Charlie and Cooper, who are starring in a production of Matilda, and therefore experts in . . . telekenetic government experiments. The three McElroys talk about the unsuccessful history of trying to prove – or create – people moving objects with their minds, including Uri Gellar and the CIA. Music: "Medicines" by The Taxpayers https://taxpayers.bandcamp.com/ Lamda Legal: https://lambdalegal.org/ Help support this show and unlock bonus content! Become a member at https://maximumfun.org/joinsawbones

Sawbones is a show about medical history, and nothing the hosts say should be taken as medical advice or opinion. It's for fun. Can't you just have fun for an hour and not try to diagnose your mystery boil? We think you've earned it. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy a moment of distraction from that weird growth. You're worth it. Hello and welcome to Sawbones, a marital tour of misguided medicine. I'm your host, Sidney McElroy.

And we're your co-hosts, Charlie and Cooper McRoy. All right, as you can tell, this is a different episode today because Justin is just, her daddy has abandoned us. Justin has abandoned us. He disappeared. Where's my dad? He's literally just in the other room. He would pick that up. He's literally just in the other room.

Yeah, he's just in the next room. No, we thought it would be fun. This is a special episode. I always do the research. So I got to be here to tell you the research. But the fun stuff, Charlie and Cooper are responsible for this week. Because what, our episode is inspired by what? The show Matilda.

Okay, we are doing Matilda the musical. Charlie, you tell us where? At Heart in the Park in Huntington, West Virginia, Huntington Area Regional Theater. Okay, now Cooper gets to do show dates. Do you know the show dates, Coop? Yeah. So we We already did two shows

And We have another show tonight And we have another show tonight And next week We have Weekend We have three other shows The 19th through the 21st

And then the weekend after that We have three more What's that? The 26th through the 28th Yep You got it And they're all at Ritter Park Amphitheater Yep

Now And Highton West Virginia. Don't forget that. Yeah. In the show Matilda, Matilda has a psychic ability. Telekinetic powers, if you'll call them. Yes. So I thought it would be fun to talk about telekinesis. You guys are really gonna make a lot of drink noises on this show, aren't you? Cooper's drinking some throat coat tea to prepare her for tonight, and Charlie's just gonna shake that lemonade all over. Yeah. Yeah, gutteries. It's got those good little crunchy ice cubes.

Guthers, Lamey. We're going to get sidetracked so easily. Let's try to stay on track with the show. So, we're going to talk about telekinesis. I want to tell you about the research because here's what I think is interesting. Girls. After you... My feet are always cold.

After, I read the book, Matilda, when I was a kid. And after I read the book, Matilda, because she is a nerdy girl. girl who likes to read and feels like a bit of an outcast. Tell me, what, so you don't think she's nerdy that much. She's cool. Well, I was a nerdy girl who liked to read and felt like an outcast. So to me, yeah. And I thought, after I read the book, maybe if I stared at things long enough, I might be able to move them with my mind.

I also did think that. Of course you do. Did you both after watching the musical or the movie or whatever, because you haven't read the book? No. I'm reading the book. No. Have you ever looked at something and thought, I'm going to do this with my mind? Yes.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Right after I saw that video of the guy bending the spoon and making it break somehow. I did. Yeah. We're going to talk about Yuri Geller. I did try that.

I did try that. And no, I can. Have you ever heard the myth that humans only use 10% of their brain power? Have you ever heard that? No. Because it's a myth. How have you not heard that? That is a myth.

But I think nobody told you that. But listen, I think it's pervasive for a reason. I'm actual smart friends. I think it's pervasive for a reason. I think a lot of people think that if they just pushed their brain further, they could do more with it. And not only do we think that, but girls, the U.S. military and the CIA decided that they wanted to conduct research at one point into whether or not humans have the ability to speak to someone in their mind. to see locations they're not in remotely or even. Like 11 from Stranger Things.

Just like 11 from Stranger Things or move things with their mind. Oh, my good Lord. Yes. So I want to talk about some of the research. And you can talk about how that plays out in Matilda the musical. Okay? So, listen to me for a second. Listen and I will ask you questions in a moment.

But listen. The military has been interested in this kind of like pseudoscience. You know what pseudoscience is, girls? Yes. What is it? Fake science. Fake science. There you go.

Sudo meaning like it's not real. Yeah. Oh, for a second I thought pseudo meant like that one kind of like fighting with the. Are you thinking of sumo wrestling? Yeah. Not sumo. Sumo science is very different. Yeah, that's kabush.

But in the back in the 50s and 60s, the U.S. military got interested specifically in like using drugs on people to try and make them tell the truth or to try and control their minds or that kind of thing. Like in stranger thing. So that was that was yes, truth serum. So that was bad and that has all been declassified and people were very angry about it and people were prosecuted for it. It was a big thing. It was called M.K. Ultra. There was Project Artichoke.

This was all bad stuff. But by the 70s, they decided they needed to do research that was less obviously criminal. And the cold, do you know what the cold war was? Yes. No. Charlie, can you tell us what the cold, what you know? I'm not putting you on the spot. I didn't expect you to say yes.

Well, we haven't learned about it in school, but I do know of the existence of it. Like, I do know that that was a thing. It was not a war, war. Yeah. As in, like, nobody was fighting. Yeah. But we kept thinking that the U.S. and the Soviet Union were going to fight. Yeah.

And everybody kept making weapons and being really, like, secret and, spyy and it was like a scary time. That's why there were like the bomb shelters in Greece too. Exactly. Exactly. We've made so many references. Yes. That's why there's the bomb shelter in Greece too.

And that in that time, everything that... By the way, yes, we have all seen all of the shows we are referencing. Yes, they have. They're very good. So the Soviet Union comprised a bunch of countries, but the main thing that you would think of today is Russia. Okay? And so think of stranger things. Sure. Think of stranger things.

In stranger things, the Soviets are doing research and trying to figure out super secret stuff. And the U.S. is also doing research and trying to figure out super secret stuff, right? That's based on real events. Now, they really didn't open a door to another dimension. That didn't happen. No. Well, Byers, was not kidnapped. But what they were trying to do with 11, where she could, like, travel. in her mind to other places

without actually physically going there. We really were trying to do that. The only two monsters saying Stranger Things is Will Byers hairdresser. Thank you, Cooper. But really, with that bull cut?

Okay, so what we were interested in were a few things. One, what you see in Stranger Things, the idea that somebody could close their eyes and concentrate and see a place far away from them and describe it. So the thought is like you could use that to spy on your enemies. Yeah.

Okay. If I said like the line for Tron at Walt Disney was 10 minutes long. I mean, we had a machine that you said that. And there was a guy in a red shirt in line or something like that. Like I could see the place without physically being a good place. We are not in Disney. Blame my parents for that. And then the other thing is, Kooookew.

we actually make things move with our mind like 11 does? So this research started in the late 70s. There was a Princeton college student who tried to do an experiment to see could we use our minds to influence the world around us. Okay. So what he used was a random events generator. Basically it was like a coin tossing machine. Okay. And like if you toss a coin over and over and over again.

How often do you expect it? If you do it enough times, so you have a huge number of, a huge collection of data. It's about 50, 50, 50. Because there's two possible outcomes. Right. What he was looking for was if we stare at the coin and try to make it, like in our mind go, heads, heads, heads, heads, or tails, tails, tails, can we influence the flip of the coin? I mean, like, we could just keep saying it and keep doing it, and it, and it, it would.

It probably will go to the thing we're saying because the chances were pretty high, but not because we made it. Yeah. Humans are truly delisional on some topics. If we did it enough times that it actually worked a couple times, we would very much believe that we had done something like that with our minds because of human races.

It's sort of delusional. Girls lock in. Ew. Thanks. Okay. So this study from this Princeton student, so a college student, actually showed a difference. Really? That there was a difference when you just flip a coin and don't try to influence it, nothing happens.

But when you flip a coin and try to influence it, they saw a difference, okay? So this was exciting to the dean of the Princeton School of Engineering and Engineering and Applied Sciences, Professor Robert G. John. And he decided we need to pursue this kind of research. So they founded what was called the Pear, P-E-A-R laboratory. What is Pear stand for? I know you're going to ask me that, and I didn't include that in the notes. It's a fruit.

No, it's not a fruit. I mean, it is a fruit, but Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research. You heard it first. You heard it first. The doctor told me pairs of fruit. Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research Lab was founded in 1979. And the idea was, can we

pursue real research into these things? Okay. So one of the studies that they did was to see if you draw, listen to this. Do you know what billiard is? Billiards? Yeah. Kind of.

It's like pool. Yeah. It's like pool. Pool table? Like pool. Shooting pool. Cool sticks, pool balls. Okay. Yeah. So they took 9,000 billiard balls. That's a lot.

Okay. Wow. And they were dropping them into a series of 19 little boxes. Yeah. Okay. 19,000, you said? 9,000 balls into 19 boxes. If they just dropped them without a human thinking about it,

there was a pretty predictable pattern of where they fell. And the center box got the most balls, okay? Yeah. Because they would drop them from the top. They would all fall down into these boxes. The center box would get full first. And then the boxes to the left and right of the center would get less full. Then they asked a human to stand and focus.

Move the balls to the right. Move the balls to the right. Move the balls to the right. Over and over and over again. And what they found is that there was a statistically significant difference when a human was moving the balls with their mind. Y'all, either were really delusional or this is pretty dang cool. So based, and then they did, they did a couple other studies.

Like, this is the telekinesis piece of it, but they did a couple other studies where they would, like, drop. Like, imagine this. They would take Charlie and drop her in a remote location where. No, listen to the study. We take Charlie. I like here. We put her somewhere on earth. She's never been.

And where Cooper, you've never been. DePah. And then, Charlie, you stand there and look around and just observe the things around you. Cooper, you would be sitting here at home with a path. and pen focusing really hard on Charlie thinking about Charlie wait would she know where I was she would have no idea where you are or anything but the idea is you would be sending her images with your mind of where you were so you'd be looking at trees or buildings or people and Cooper would be able to draw that here even though she doesn't know where you are and they found that they could they could they were kind of successful this is what this laboratory published that they could do that Something really funny. Me and my friends did an experiment sort of like that where we were in the classroom because it was raining outside. We couldn't have racists.

So we were just all in the classroom like playing games and stuff. And me and my friend, I'm not going to say his name for privacy issues, but let's just say K. We won't say names. Let's just say K. We came up with this thing where we would, one of us. So for example, I would look at a place in the room, close my eyes. And imagine taking a picture of that and sending it to K, let's just call him. And so, and then we did it a significant amount of times, like 10 times.

And it actually ended up about, not more than half, but like four of the times it, the other one could see what we were looking at exactly. It was pretty cool. So you were trying to do remote location. Yes. remote perception And yeah you were doing those and what the Pear Laboratory would say

is that there is that some people are able to do this and it doesn't matter how far apart you are or anything Now this research has been criticized many times So I'm not going to sit here and tell you girls that this is like absolutely definitive science

A lot of people are like I don't think this sounds right Like it hasn't been replicated It's really important when we do science study that we do them once and we go, hmm, that's an interesting result. Let's do it over and over and over again

and see if we get the same result. Because if we can't get the same result, then maybe it was just a... A fluke. Yeah, maybe it was a fluke, exactly. So, but there was compelling enough research that the CIA was paying attention. And at the same time,

there was a very famous person making a lot of waves in popular culture, and we're going to talk about spoonbending, but first, we've got to go to the billing department. What if you say let's go? Let's go. The medicines.

The medicines that ask you make macabre for the mouth. All right. We're back from the billing department. And Cooper, do you remember the name of the person we're about to talk about? Nope. Uri Geller. And you watched a video of Uri Geller, didn't you? Yep.

Cooper, what did you see Uri Geller do in the video? So I saw him. He was like on the news or somewhere. He had a spoon, and he was rubbing, like, the neck of it right in between the long, like, the handle. The handle and the actual, like, spoon part. And he would rub it for a while, and it wasn't getting hot, so it wasn't the heat. And it would bend and then just break off.

And he believed that he was telling the spoon to bend, and it was bending because he was talking to the spoon. He was becoming one with a spoon. Exactly. He was using his psychic powers. What sets Yuri Geller apart from a lot of magicians is that magicians generally are saying like these are tricks. Like we're illusionists. We're doing something.

This is a physical thing that exists. There's no magic happening. It's just we're not going to tell you how we did it. But it is a trick. Yuri Geller did not, and to this day, has not come right out and said, I don't have psychic powers. These are tricks. He says, no, I have psychic powers.

powers. Yes. I used my mind to do things. And in the 70s he was really popular. He performed lots of tricks. Because of these studies. Well, and I think we were at a moment where everybody thought, I mean, I think you all have seen stranger things and everybody was really excited about like moving

things with their mind and worried about what the Soviets were doing. That's all true. For like three days right after watching it, I'm sorry. I actually started laying It was sort of embarrassing, but I was laying my stuffed animals out in a row,

and I would each take turns, starting with the lightest to the heaviest, trying to move them with my mind. There was actually a VR game that I played just so I could experience that. So I don't think you're alone, Coop. I think a lot of people, and that's what, for me, Matilda was one of the first things that I read that made me think, well, I'm really smart. Maybe I can move things with my mind. But then I finally realized I couldn't do it.

Well, so Uri Geller says he could. Now, it's interesting girls, because Uri Geller went on a talk show called Johnny Carson. Yeah. And it was kind of like Stephen Colbert or Jimmy Kimmel, one of those. It was the same idea. Like Jimmy Fallon. Jimmy Fallon, yes. So Johnny Carson predates all those guys.

Johnny Carson was also a magician and a talk show host. And he worked with another magician, James Randy, who, also set up the skeptic society, which is basically a big group of people who are like, listen, if you're out there trying to claim some kind of magic, we're going to come investigate you and prove that you're up to no good. You're a con artist. So Johnny Carson and James Randi had him come on the show to prove his psychic powers, and they set up all the props ahead of time. They didn't let him bring his own props. And when he got there, he couldn't do any of the tricks, couldn't bend a spoon, couldn't make anything work, which should prove that he doesn't really

have psychic powers, right? Yeah. But it didn't. Because what he said was, well, listen, I'm feeling psychically weak today. My psychic muscle is weak. And if this was a magic trick, it would work every time. But clearly it's not a magic trick. It's just like sometimes you're tired and you can't like run as fast or jump as high.

He said it's like that. Okay. Now, I used to have someone in my class. that said, I'm just going to, I'm not going to say their name for privacy issues. Yes, we don't say names. And they believed that they were a mythical creature. I'm not going to say which one. Yeah, I remember that.

No, can I say the mythical creature? Sure. A vampire. They believed they were a vampire. and they believed they had different, like, sort of powers. And, no, they weren't budging. They, like, truly believe they were a vampire, no matter how much I told them. So, and she would, like, perform the trick.

They would work. But the times that they didn't work, she would be like, yeah, I think there was, like, garlic around me or something like that. And I was like, girl, and she would freak out any time she'd been. saw silver. Even though I was like, girl, that's for whale rolls, not vampire. And she's like, no, but still. And still to this day, I really don't believe her, but she still believes herself. I'm out of school now, so. Well, you never know. I mean, here's the thing. The CIA believed so much in Yuri Geller's powers that they decided they were going to study him.

So in 1973, the CIA, the Central Intelligence Agency, they're like the U.S. spies. Their job is to, like, go gather information about things. Okay? They had Uri Geller come in. So this is like a government thing. This is as official as it gets, guys. They had Uri Geller come in and do some experiments with them so they could figure out, like, does this guy really have psychic powers? They put him in an electrically isolated, shielded room.

so that he wouldn't be able to like control anything in the room. They had him draw things like that he couldn't see like somebody in another room is looking at something and he's trying to connect with them telepathically and draw things. They had him trying to move things with his mind. There's all these. This is the declassified study that I'm reading right here. It was from August 4th through 11th of 1973. Here are the images of everything that they had him do.

Do you see these pictures, girls? Oh, my. They had him drawing things. And at the end of it all... The people... Oh, whoa! I don't know why I drew a picture of the devil. But at the end of it all...

Whoa! Here's what they determined. As a result of Geller's success in this experimental period, we consider that he has demonstrated his paranormal perceptual ability in a convincing and unambiguous manner. What that means is the CIA said,

yeah, he's got psychic powers. Oh, CIA. Oh, see. Can I tell him some of the pictures that you drew? Yeah. Okay. He... He...

He drew grapes and a stick figure that said devil and a headhorns and a pitchfork. Okay, I believe the grape part, but like, it's... Yeah, he drew stick of dynamite. I'm scared for the person he was trying to read off of. Because they apparently saw first grapes, a stick of dynamite that was lit and in the devil. Now I'm scared. That is interesting. That's what the other person picked.

This led to, so initially the CIA had these studies. We should study the other person. Yeah, really. They moved it to the Defense Intelligence Agency and called it Stargate Project. That's what it was called at the time. And this led to, there's a bunch, like there was a movie about this. It was called Men Who Stare at Goats, like the idea that you could stare at a goat and kill it with your mind. Oh, no.

Yeah. Poor Goody. I know. Well, I mean, all of this was like, could we use these? You got to understand what the government was trying to do was figure out, could we use psychic powers to wage war on our enemies? Or to find out information about our enemies. I love a good goat scream.

So they published this. Especially fainting goats, like, that's hilarious. Everybody got really excited about it. Now, there were later articles that were pretty critical. There was evidence that maybe, like, this came out. in 1978 and 1980, where they started finding evidence that perhaps Yuri Geller had a little hole in the laboratory wall where he was peeking through so that he could reproduce the drawings that the person in the other room was doing. I don't know if that's true, but that's what was alleged later on, that Geller had access to an intercom so he could talk to the person who was doing the other drawing. And at the end of it all, there were other...

Just an air vent. There were other scientists who went through it and said, we don't think he has any psychic abilities whatsoever. And by the 90s, the CIA stopped all this research, declassified everything, and was like, sorry about that. Sorry about that. Oops. In September 1995, they made everything available.

So you can read about the CIA's investigations into telekinesis. And now most scientists feel like We're probably seeing some random things, some chance, some coincidence. And then probably... There's some really powerful stuff that magicians do with suggestion during their performances that can make you feel like they're making things happen. Like a basic card trick. I actually learned how to do that.

Like a sort of like pick a card and I'll tell you which card it is. Yeah. Here's how, can I tell you how the CIA hedge their bets? What they say now is like, look, maybe there was some evidence that this is real, but it was too unreliable for us to use in any real way. So we're not going to investigate it anymore. Instead of having to say, oops, probably Yuri Geller didn't have psychic powers. To this day, though, Yuri Geller still says he does. He tried, he did send a letter to Teresa May, who was the prime minister of the United Kingdom at one point.

to tell her that he was going to use his mind powers to stop her from doing Brexit, which is when the UK left the EU. But it didn't work. UK did Brexit. Okay, so what I want to ask you girls now, now that we've learned the history of telekinesis and the fact that it, at this point,

we don't really have strong evidence that it's real. Tell me what you, what, tell me about a telekinesis that Matilda does in the musical. So first of all, who do you play in the music? I play lavender, Matilda's best friend, or is most of you in, know her the girl with the newt.

I find a newt, and I use that newt, which is basically like a really, really ugly lizard. I put it in the trench bowl's jug of water, so I poured into a glass and give it to her after our phys ed class or P.E. And then what does Matilda do? And then Matilda uses her mind to knock the glass over and. sort of throw the nude onto Trenchable. So that's one magic trick

we had to do for the show. Cooper, what's the big magic trick that Matilda? Well, first of all, who do you play in the musical? I play Bruce Bogtrotter also known as

the guy who eats all the big chocolate cake. Yes. Do you really eat a big chocolate cake? Yes. Yeah, it's magic. Mm-hmm. And then at the end of the show,

at the very end Matilda Like So we have just like sort of on like started like fighting against

Trunchbow a little and then we realized we the plan backfired and Matilda started moving a piece of chalk with her mind

and writing on the chalkboard pretending it was a ghost to get the Trunch Bowl to be really scared and leave. That's right. So now we have chalk floating in the air and writing on a chalkboard, right?

Yeah. And she's moving it with her mind, and we're moving it with... Don't tell. Magic. Magic. Nah. Hadley's just doing that.

She just... It would have been way easier if one of you kids did have psychic powers because you don't, and so we had to figure out how to do all these magic tricks without your psychic powers. But I totally do have psychic powers.

That's the history of telekinesis. That's why, I can finally reach the top shelf. So you can see if they were doing these experiments in the 70s and 80s, Matilda was written in 1988. It was written in the 70s, like, so it. In that sort of cultural milieu. It was, oh, my God, it was written as it, oh my gosh, it was written as it, oh, my gosh, I can't talk.

It was written as it was set in the late 70s to early 80s. this is this is a point of contention it is set in the modern era it is yes since when i don't know you guys decided it was the 70s and we just rolled with it because that's what no tech directors do well the original book if it was in the modern era would have been 1988 exactly you see that's not the 70s my love close it down this has been a point of contention anyway the point is the 19 it makes sense people were thinking about this when Roald Dahl, who we don't like, but we do like the book, Matilda. We don't like

Roll Dahl, but we do like the book, Matilda, and the musical Matilda. But we, at the time it was written, people were thinking about this. Oh, because God. And Matilda has telekinesis. But as far as we know, telekinesis is not real. That is

where our studies lead us. Although the pair research laboratory is still out there working, so maybe they'll find some evidence someday. You never know. Keep your minds open. We love pairs. To the truth. We love pairs. Thank you, girls.

Where can you see Matilda? You could see it at Heart in the Park. Huntington West, Huntington Original Theater. Are you original theater? Yeah, that's where I'm at. The Ritter Park. What's it called? Amphitheater.

Yep. And the gates open at every weekend. Three. At seven. I knew that. The gates open at 7. There's a little pre-show ahead of time

with members of the community singing and then the show starts at 8.30. Yeah, 8.30. 8.30. I know it's late, but it's outdoor. We're working with the sun. And, Charlie, what are the dates? Do you remember?

The 14th, 19th, 20th, 21st, and then 26th, 27, 28th. Oh, my gosh, I can't talk. Of June. Of June. All right. Come see everybody in all the magic and the telekinesis

that may or may not be happening It is happening, Mother. Oh, and tell everybody who you play. Oh, I play a doctor. It's a big stretch. The doctor. It's a big stretch for me. Yeah.

I have to deliver a baby. Eight years of character study. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you, girls. Say thanks to our listeners. Gracious. And also, she's actually a really big role.

She just doesn't know it. Because without her, Matilda wouldn't even be alive. So she's actually really. There's nobody to mourn. Yeah. We got to thank Max fun. Thank the taxpayers for our theme song. Thank you.

Thank you. And, as always. What do we say? I'm Sydney McRoy. I'm not just in McElroy, but I'm Cooper McRoy. And I'm also Charlie McElroy. And don't do drugs. What?

She still doesn't know this. That was great. No, that's better. Don't do drugs. Don't drill a hole in your head. Maximum Fun. A Worker-Oned Network of Artist-owned shows. Supported directly by you.