Sawbones: A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine - Sawbones: Measles

Episode Date: February 4, 2015

This week on Sawbones, Dr. Sydnee and Justin get angry about the measles. Music: "Medicines" by The Taxpayers (http://thetaxpayers.net)

Saabones is a show about medical history, and nothing the hosts say should be taken as medical advice or opinion. It's for fun. Can't you just have fun for an hour and not try to diagnose your mystery boil? We think you've earned it. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy a moment of distraction from that weird growth. You're worth it. that weird growth. You're worth it. Alright, time is about to books. One, two, one, two, three, four. We came across a pharmacy with a toy and that's lost it out. We pushed on through the broken glass and had ourselves a look around.

Some medicines, some medicines that escalate my cop for the mouth. Wow! Hey everybody and welcome to Sawboats, I'm here with a tour of Miss Guy at Medicine. I am your co-hosts macro And I'm Sydney Macrolye. So we are watching the news coverage over the past couple of weeks about a measles outbreak in California and Sydney looked to me and said man I wish we could just do vaccines again, but We're a done vaccines Yeah, yeah, I mean I could just do vaccines again. But we're right done vaccines here on the show. Yeah, I mean, I would do

it every episode because it's just that important. But we are circumventing that this week. Tell me how I said, well, I thought instead of talking about vaccines, I could just talk about measles as a way for me to talk about vaccines again. Um, we try to be pretty accepting open people here on this show, unless you were born over a hundred years ago, in which case, I tend to give you a pretty hard time and I accept that. Uh, this is one area where I have basically, like, zero room for quits, it's impossible for me to reasonably talk about this issue and like the

pros and cons. This in game marriage, I have very little capacity. No, there's not, there aren't two sides to this. This is one of those cases where you don't need to give the other side of fair chance or listen to what they have to say or their argument or play devil's advocate. No, there's one side to this. We have good science to support that vaccine save lives. Period. That's the end of that sentence. There's no but or but sometimes or otherwise.

So when somebody gets the measles vaccination, what exactly are they saving themselves or their children from? Okay, so let's talk about measles. First of all, there were two Sydney's responsible for this measles episode. One being me. Right. And the other being, I don't want to call it other Sydney.

Sydney too is fine. Well, maybe she's Sydney and I'm Sydney too. Sydney with a Y. How's that? Yes, Sydney with a Y, who also suggested this topic. And I said, you know what, Sydney with a Y who also suggested this topic and I said, you know what Sydney? this Sydney is Gonna get you your sit you Sydney your back. No, yeah, you guys have the same name I think we get it like you're both Sydney. So I got it. Oh, yeah, I'm with you I'm gonna try to go with the jokes because you know you weren't so listen you just listen well, okay

Sorry, I haven't. Busted as everybody stitches with measles gag as yet. Let me reach into that vein. Oh, I got shocked. I got shocked by that rich vein of humor as it's electrified and it's terrible. There's nothing funny about it. Well, here's the sad thing. Measles should be funny because we should just be able to eradicate it and be done with

it, but it can't be funny. But no. And here's why. Tell me what measles it is. Anyway, measles has been around a long time. It was probably initially related to a dog virus that caused like distemper and dogs that spread to humans sometime after humans started hanging out a lot more with dogs. So thousands of years ago when we were like, hey, come on, man, puppy. Come on in, weird wolf. Let me see if you can live here. Would you like to fetch?

Do you fetch? I think you look like somebody I could teach to fetch. You look like some agatists. If fetch, why don't you come on in here and lay on these newspapers. I've been it. This was also the time that we invented the news. Thank you, Gutenberg. The first description of measles was in the ninth century by a Persian doctor. Although, at that time, it was thought that it was probably related to smallpox, which was much better known and understood. And we've talked about smallpox before,

was kind of a bigger deal. Measles was even seen as maybe one of the phases of smallpox. Maybe you got measles. They have like pre-smallpox. Yes, yeah, or maybe it was a different, like, in some people, this is how smallpox. Maybe you got measles. They get like pre-smallpox. Yes, yeah, or maybe it was a different like, in some people, this is how smallpox looks and in other people, it looks like the worst thing, you know. Cause I mean, not really the same rash,

but similar enough that you get all red and spotty and, you know, I don't know, same disease. There were probably outbreaks of it in the ancient world, but the hard thing is One, you really need large population centers to support epidemics of measles so Most of the time there would have just been isolated cases if there were some and a lot of viral diseases cause Red splotchy rashes, you know, so it's it's kind of hard to differentiate that when we look to ancient descriptions, you know, in texts of like somebody got a red dotty rash, what did they have? Right, obviously

didn't call it that, so. No, we didn't know that it was measles, you know, it could have been a lot of things. The Greeks probably didn't have enough large population centers to support big epidemics of measles, which is why you don't really hear Hippocrates writing about it or read, I guess, Hippocrates writing about it. Gotcha. He didn't do any audiobooks. He didn't do it. You know, why didn't he have a podcast? I don't think it's not fair that I get one and Hippocrates didn't. He probably ranks higher Paulie sure has one Think you think hip-hop not nothing against Paulie sure man. It's not a lot of work

Just like probably sure gets about guys at the bucket. He's doesn't I know he'd agree with that assessment I'm a mistress There is some people point to the plague of Athens as a Representation of early measles, but this is actually a big point of debate as I was reading about it. So there was a plague that ravaged Athens during the time that it was at war with Sparta, I guess one of the many, what they always like at war. I don't know.

There's at least two, three hundred movies, so at least twice, I think. Okay. I know nothing about history. Well, I know nothing about this three hundred movies. I know very little about history. I know nothing about the three hundred movies, apparently, because history. I know very little about history. I know nothing about the 300 movies, apparently, because those are Persians and Spartans, but hey, this is wrong.

Close. Close. I see, I didn't minor in history. I was one class short, so I can't claim any history knowledge. I tell people I minor in Spanish, but I barely made it out of Spanish for the D. I did minor in Spanish. Okay.

Anyway, so there was a plague that ravaged Athens and it probably contributed largely to its decline. And what happened is that they were fighting the Spartans and there were the people who lived like within the wall of the city of Athens, the Athenian walls. And then there were kind of these people that lived out in the middle, you know, and when the war started, they kind of rushed in on the city of Athens to live closer to the city central, you know, to be more protected. And during that time, a huge plague erupted, probably just because there were a lot of people living in close quarters and kind of like

in a refugee kind of camp situation. They didn't have clearly defined borders just to who lived where and who, you know, Pied where and who sneezed where and what they ate. Not that they even knew that was a thing. Exactly. I should worry about. So some sort of horrible plague just spread through Athens like wildfire at this point.

And when you read descriptions, they definitely had a red splotchy rash. But then they talk about the rash like ulcerating and people are bleeding everywhere and their tongues are coming off and their mouths and their eyes are bleeding. So at this point, this starts to sound a little less like measles. And either one, like people got some really awful bacterial infections of some other kind of sore. Maybe it was smallpox, it could have been typhoid, it's really not clear. So I don't know, this may have been a description of the first major measles outbreak, or it may just, you know, be something else.

The Romans probably did have big enough population centers to support big outbreaks of measles, but again The outbreaks of measles sound like outbreaks of anything else that has a rash back then, so we're not sure Gotcha in this in the 13th century we get the word measles, which actually is like Mezzles me me me me me me me me Z ILS. Yeah measles literally this is how this is how a little kid spelt Mizzles. Like, street, I think that's like Mizzles prefers.

Like if Mizzles was tagging, that's what he would use. Me or Shay, I don't wanna assign a gender to Mizzles who can say. When I see Mizzles spelled that way, it reminds me of when you call pretzels Peasles. I do call pretzels Peasles sometimes. You do. That's true. I say, salt me up some peasels sometimes. You do. That's true.

I say salt me up some peasels, Sid. So spot me up some measles. Spot me up some measles. Got it. That word actually meant when you spell it that way, it means either leprosy or measles. Oh, really? Yeah.

So they thought that maybe they were closely related. We're still kind of unclear on exactly what measles is at this point. And again, at this point, we're still thinking that things are caused by the, we talked about this for me, Asma's, like they're in the air, something in the air that makes you sick.

That smells like something. We don't know exactly what it is, just sort of like a bad vibe. Seeps into a room in the next thing you know, everybody's sick. Like, smilex gas, basically, from the hip film Tim Burton presents the Batman. They get the current.

Yeah, the current. Currently, 1989 film reference for you folks. We're also a film review podcast. Yeah, we do that too. We're the Faw House now. There were also theories that it was spread by seeds that you could get from person to person that would cause disease, which kind of is close. You know, that's not too far off. I'll give him credit for that.

I need tiny seeds. In the 16th century, we actually began to recognize measles as a distinct entity that is in and of itself measles. You know, this is some kind of disease that people get and it causes a rash and they get sick. But in Europe and Asia, the death rates were relatively low. So it wasn't something that people spent a lot of time focusing on or worrying about. Bigger proverbial frist of fry. Exactly. There were a lot of other diseases that were killing lots of people. Measles

was low on the list. What really changed that was as people began exploring, they carried along and most notably smallpox with them. I was about to guess that straight white men got it in great a match, because that's usually what turned these things around. No, it's already affecting a lot of straight white men. What really, measles really made a name for itself in the untouched populations of the new world, so the Native Americans.

And then as explorers went to places like Fiji, Samoa, West Africa, Hawaii, as they would explore, they took along, we all know they took smallpox with them. Well, they also took measles. And at this point, you're seeing outbreaks of measles. And we know this is measles, not smallpox, killing 20 to 30% of people each time there's an epidemic. So I think we begin to see at this point that, you know, measles does have a nasty side that we tend to forget about, especially now, since it's been such a long time since any of us have seen measles.

Gotcha. It was thought for a while that measles was just part of growing up. That you just like it wasn't even something you got. It wasn't something external. It was just internal to like super puberty. Yes. Like you went through puberty and then you got measles. And you went through your measles phase. Uh, you know, listen to that boy saying you can tell me. Leanne's in her measles phase right now. She's in her measles.

She's just, she's in her room. She's listening to that moody music. Listen to that boy saying you can tell he hasn't had his measles yet. It's beautiful and jellic. I can start out of he continues to keep his quick ablection. There was also a theory. There is a goddess of measles a Hindu goddess of measles, Sattala. And there's... Genima Carthes. Genima Carthes, American goddess of measles. Sattala inflicted measles on people as punishment.

I mention this because one of the things we'll talk about in a little bit is the idea that measles might be a gift from a goddess. And let me just clarify at this point, since we're still talking historically, it is a punishment from a goddess inflicted on people when they displease her. Got it. She gives the measles.

You don't, so just a miracle, don't on measles. No, it's a bad thing. Got it. It's not a gift. With it. No. So what, I'm a little confused. What, we've talked a lot about the history of measles,

but like I'm going to be honest with you and say that I've never, you know, obviously, I've never seen my lifetime. So like, can you tell me like what it actually is? Sure. I think that's a good idea because I also have not seen measles. And I am a doctor for real. I don't just play one on a podcast, but measles is something that I learned about in medical school as kind of an academic note. There is a thing that was called measles. Other in some parts of the world, people are still getting measles. Certainly, we have not eradicated it.

But you won't see it in your career, Sydney, because we don't have it in the US anymore. Wrong. So it's a paramax of virus. It's also known as rubio-wa. Right. And so, like I said, it's a paramax of virus. It's also known as rubio. Right. Um, and so like I said, it's a virus. You get it. And then about seven to 14 days after you've been exposed, you start to get symptoms. Uh, we were taught in med school that you get the three Cs first, cough, cariza, and conjunctivitis. You probably know what two of those are. Yeah, I know cough and conjunctivitis. In case people don't know conjunctivitis, is that

what? Like red eyes, like inflammation of the eyes. Gotcha. And you can also get cariza, like runny nose, like cold symptoms. They just say cariza. They just said cariza, so there would be three C's. Yeah, basically. There's also, there's also a K, but it sounds like a C called coplic spots, which are these little white spots you get inside your mouth. Okay. But it's a K technique. Gotcha. You also get a fever.

And you get these symptoms first. No way to spin that with a sea, I guess. I don't, um, no. Calor. Calor. Calor. Lorda mecanisa. That sea, they missed that one.

Yeah. I got it. I'm all over you. Anyway, so you get these symptoms and then three to five days later, you get a rash. We were taught that it's kind of like a bucket of paint rash. You think about it as like somebody dumped a bucket of paint over your head because it starts to sit your head and works its way down to your feet. So you start the spots up around your hairline and then slowly they work their way down.

Like a Jackson Pollock disease No, and that would be like splatter slashes like all over you. Yeah Yeah, I'm with you. I'm a little more orderly. It's like you said I don't know on UK. Do that on television. It's a may dump the bucket measles on your head Exactly that we got it that show would have been a lot less pleasant if that was no it was that that you know you remember you don't you can't do that on television it lasted three episodes and everybody on earth watched it it was the greatest shortest running television program ever and Nickelodeon has is still in court

measles and you may have heard this on the news, is very, very infectious. Unlike Ebola, which we mentioned is not. Right. It has a rate of, if I can remember this correctly, the average for Ebola is like one and one, right? For one person that gets it, one other person will get it. Exactly. Which is... Which is going to infect like one other person. Which is easier to control. Yes. Much easier to control. Yes, much easier to control.

Measles, on the other hand, if you are infected, you're likely to give it to 16 to 18 people, which is a lot, and a lot harder to control. It's spread by respiratory droplets, but it also hangs around on surfaces and in rooms for two hours after you've been there. So this really is a case of, you know, and in rooms for two hours after you've been there. So this really is a case of,

you know, if somebody with measles is in the same bowling alley as you, and you're not immunized, you really do need to worry. So this is a lot scarier in that sense. You know, certainly not as dramatic as Ebola, but much easier to get. Most people get better in a week or so.

Most people get those symptoms, they or so. Most people get those symptoms, they get the rash, they're probably going to give it to some other people, and then they get better. Is this one of those scenarios where otherwise healthy adults tend to fare the best? Exactly. Most of the time you or I, Justin, would probably probably do okay from measles. Okay. Most likely we would. However, we won't get measles because we were immunized. Immemore, right? Yes, that's right. Immemore, which means for measles, mumps, rebella, because those are the three diseases that you're immunized against when you get it.

And we'll talk a little bit more about the vaccine. But some people don't get better. There are some complications. And I will say this, we are not the most likely group to There are some complications and I will say this, we are not the most likely group to not get complications. We're not the safest group. The safest group are people between 5 and 20. Really? Yeah. They're the least likely to get complications. We are still pretty unlikely because we're healthy and relatively young. But the little kids, especially little kids who haven't gotten their immunizations yet, but little kids in general, and then older people and people with other illnesses, things that would suppress their immune system, make it harder for them to fight off any disease, can get the following

complications. And here are some numbers for you. One in 20, that's not a small number. One in 20 kids with measles get pneumonia, which doesn't sound like a big deal, except the most common cause of measles death is pneumonia. One in 20 kids will get it. That does not mean that one in 20 kids will die,

but one in 20 kids with measles get pneumonia. One in 1,000 kids with measles will get in cephalitis, which is inflammation of the brain, which is kind of a big deal. Right. One to two out of every thousand people with measles will die. Got it.

And four to 11, and we don't have great numbers on this because we're not seeing it's measles as much now. Four to 11 in 100,000 will get something called subacute sclerosis and panacephalitis, SSPE, which is a long-term condition that affects the central nervous system and doesn't usually show up until maybe 10 years after you had the measles, but will impact your neurological function for the rest of your life. So with these numbers, you can see why some people were interested in fixing measles.

Right. Because for a long time, it was considered, even after we knew it wasn't a phase of growing up, it was considered just part of what happened when you grew up. Kind of like when we were little, everybody got chicken pox at some time. Right. And now they don't because there's a vaccine. That's weird, isn't it? It's really weird. Yeah, people don't get chicken pox anymore. because there's a vaccine. That's weird, isn't it? It's really weird. Yeah, people don't get chicken pox anymore.

For a long time measles was just part of what happened. Every couple of years, we would have a big epidemic. People would get measles. You hoped you didn't get too sick, but everybody got sick. Is it one of those where you get it once and you're done? Yes. Yeah, for most people, usually, yeah. Now, there were, of course, some weird cures

here and there tried. Then I should note, there is no cure for measles. There is no specific treatment. Just supportive care. Just supportive care. Total passes. And get your vaccine so you don't get it. It would be my main recommendation.

Yeah. But some cures that have been tried. There were some religious cures. So we talked about that there was a goddess, Satala, who could give you measles. There was a tree you could take leaves from the neem tree, and then you could rub them all over you on your rash, and then spread them out under your bed, and then you would take a can of wet cow dung and leave that in your doorway. And when visitors came to see you, they would have to dip like a leg in the wet cow dung in order to purify themselves before they came in to visit you. Excellent, excellent to dip like a leg in the wet cow dung in order to purify themselves before they came into visit you.

Excellent. Excellent. I'm so, in case you needed another reason to not visit your friend with the measles, now you have one. Because they have a can of... They have a can of dog poop. Cow poop. Or cow poop for you to put your leg in.

Wouldn't a vaccine be easier? Just keep thinking that as I'm telling you these things. Gotcha. In some of the Japanese traditional medicine beliefs, you can first use a strict diet, which actually nutrition is important when you're healing for anything, with a lot of wheat, I don't know about that,

or there were some specific talismans, like horses, worked well against measles and the magic Majesty the majesty forces or Mount Fuji talismans also majestic equally majestic anything majestic bally gold American flag Whatever Justine rocky like a hurricane a talisman of Justin. He's very majestic very majestic man. Justin with a single tear and Just like a flaring shirt. Yeah, with like another shirt underneath it that has like a wolf on it. Yeah, that's howling at the moon.

I'm getting a little tearier eye right now. Just thinking about that. Maybe like an American flag in the background of it. Two of them. Ooh. Yeah. Of course, as everything else we talk about, bloodletting was tried for. You gotta try it just to see.

Who knows? You don't know. You're not a doctor? It, one of the descriptions I read of bloodletting mentioned specifically that you shouldn't hesitate to bleed even the tender infant. Cool. They got, they got loads of blood, nothing but. I would hesitate to bleed a tender infant myself.

I don't want to meet the doctor that doesn't hesitate to bleed a tender infant myself. I don't want to meet the doctor that doesn't hesitate to bleed a tender infant. Oh baby, huh? Bring that bad boy over here. Quack, quack, quack, quack, quack, quack, got it, no problem. Didn't even think about it, really. It's a reflex at this point.

Got any other babies? It's like my favorite to bleed. They're so easy. Or so easy, especially when you don't hesitate. That's the trick you just got to go, whoa, I just bled another baby. For now, I wasn't even looking. They're so easy. Or so easy, especially when you don't hesitate. That's the trick you just gotta go, whoa, I just bled another baby. For now, I wasn't even looking. There's a no look.

I know scope that baby. Especially for the diarrhea that little kids would get. Bleeding was great for that. Sure. There was a long time belief that measles break out, breaks out on the inside first, which kind of makes sense because you think about people got the other symptoms before the rash

So you had to do things to make the rash comes out and this is one of those cases where whatever you did would work Because the rash was coming right so somebody would get sick You knew measles was going around so you would do one of these weird things to bring out the measles and then the rash Rash would come and you go yay, and you didn't want it to go back in on you Which was the that's what they call it go back in on you because then it would, you'd get measles of the liver and stuff like that. All right, let's be a problem. And so in order to bring them out, you could drink some sheep dropping tea.

Mm. Or nanny pills. I found it called that a lot. Some nanny pills. They're called nanny pills. Nanny pills. I guess a sheep is like a nanny. Wink.

And then, not it pills. Anyway, um, garlic seeds steeped in whiskey. Um, sure. I guess a sheep is like a nanny wink and then add it pills anyway Garlic seeds steeped in whiskey Sure sure go for it. There was also a tree. It's called the gumbo limbo tree and this is interesting We talked about the doctrine of signatures before the idea that Nature gives us clues to what can cure something by it looks like the thing you want to cure So I guess this tree has a red rough bark that peels off and kind of looks like a rash. So the bark of this tree was good for measles, also for sunburns and anything else that looks red and pealy. The usual things that cure everything and

you know kind of a natural view of medicine, lavender, chamomile, peppermint tea, catnip, echinacea, vitamin C, and vitamin A, which there's actually a little bit of truth to this. Measles is really rough on people who are malnourished and specifically on people with vitamin A deficiency. So that's been a recommendation for a while in underdeveloped countries. When kids get measles, we very often would give them a couple doses of vitamin A right

away in order to prevent some of the really horrible complications of measles and to improve their mortality. So there's a little bit of truth to that. So no, no, it is. How do we start making some progress against it? Well, Justin, I'm going to tell you all about that, but before I do, why don't you head on down to the billing department with me. Let's go.

The medicines, the medicines that I skilled in my cards before the mound. Okay, so how did we start making some progress against the measles? So first of all, in 1757, there was a Scottish doctor, Francis Home, who showed that there was in fact something in your bloodstream there was a Scottish doctor, Francis Home, who showed that there was in fact something in your bloodstream that was infectious so that could be passed from person to person that was causing measles, which was a big breakthrough. So now we know it's not just like,

oh, you got your, it's the time of your voice to change, you got acne, you got boobs, and now you got measles. Right. By 1912, so there's a long time there where we're studying and not figuring much out. Measles is a distinct, reportable disease in the US, but we have no idea what to do about it. We know there's this virus, we know everybody's getting it, we know it's very infectious, but every year in the US, over that next decade, 6,000 people died every year of measles in the United States.

6,000 people. In 1954, we had a big breakthrough when we actually isolated the virus itself. So instead of just kind of like we know there's something in the blood, we know how it's passed from person to person, we looked at it under a microscope, a little probably electron microscope and said, this is the virus, this is what is causing measles. They got it from the blood of a 13-year-old boy named David Edmiston, who had the measles, obviously, which is important only because the Edmiston strain vaccine is what was then created from it.

Is anything special about that kid you think, or? I mean, they finally figured it out. They would just figure it out. She had really huge measles. I know they could see them with an eye practically. And now he's famous for it forever for a huge measles. In 1963, we made a vaccine. And then in 1968, we perfected it.

And this is still the same vaccine. The one we made in 1968 that we are using today in combination with mumps and rebella or rebella is also known as German measles in the MMR. In 1978, so we are armed with this vaccine. We're going to give it to everybody. And this is, you know, we talked about, we're kind of in the same time period when the World Health Organization said, hey, why don't we eliminate smallpox?

And then we, you know, we did. The CDC says, hey, why don't we eliminate smallpox? And then we did. The CDC says, hey, we're gonna eliminate measles. And we're gonna do it by 1982. Choo. We don't quite hit that deadline. In part because we realized that initially, we were only giving kids one shot that they probably need a booster.

So then we add a booster shot and everybody starts getting better. And we're doing a much better job. And then in the year 2000, we declare measles eliminated in the US. Yeah, mission accomplished. Now, this is important to know. Unlike when we when we completely eradicated smallpox from the face of the earth with the exception of a couple of labs, hopefully just just the couple labs, hopefully nowhere else. Well, and then that one

that was found in like a library somewhere or some archery. Under some beach chairs. Yeah, somebody left some behind somewhere. Measles was still killing people worldwide. Still is now still was in 2000. As of 2013, about 145,000 people are dying from measles worldwide. So that is important to remember We didn't eliminate measles from the face of the earth. We thought we eliminated it from the US But it's still out there and can come back Especially if people aren't vaccinated So this is where everybody starts getting it so very wrong

measles should be a historical footnote. The vaccine isn't perfect. So there are a handful of people who are gonna get vaccinated and still be susceptible to getting the measles. But we have this great thing that we talked about on the vaccine episode called herd immunity. Do you remember what that is, Justin? Yeah, it's when a population of people is,

I think the stat is like 80 to 90% vaccinated against something, then because the disease can't get a foothold, the entire community is basically immune, looked at holistically. Exactly. No, it's a little higher, I believe, for me, so it's like 95%, 95%. It's different for every disease. That's a good, that's a good, you know, threshold to think about. But when you look at what happened at Disneyland recently, where a bunch of people got the measles, when you have a population that starts choosing not to vaccinate and then you introduce people who aren't immune to it for some other reason, and then you take the fact that they're going to be people traveling from other parts of the world where measles is still being passed around is still in

dimic, you have a recipe for disaster, especially when you consider that there are some people who can't get the measles vaccine. You know, there are always going to be people who might be allergic to some component of a vaccination, or for some health reason are not eligible to receive the vaccine because it would be harmful to them. There aren't a lot of these people, but they do exist. And part of the reason that I get vaccinated and you get vaccinated and you do Justin

is to protect these people who can't. In addition, there's somebody else who you're protecting when you get your measles vaccine. Who? Charlie. Our baby. My baby. Well who you're protecting when you get your measles vaccine. Who? Charlie. Our baby. My baby. Well, you're baby.

Okay, you're baby. We're okay. Our baby. It sounds more impactful. My baby. Yeah. Protect my baby. Our baby is six months old.

She doesn't get her measles vaccine yet. You get your first when you're 12 to 15 months old and then you get a booster probably when you enter school, but somewhere between the age of four to six. So, Charlie doesn't have her measles vaccine yet. And measles is particularly devastating in the young, less than two population who hasn't gotten their vaccines

or at least both of their vaccines at this point. So that's also who you're protecting when you get your measles vaccination. Some people out there, this is crazy because we're talking about this is not an ancient belief. Some people think that measles is important to get. That it makes you stronger. That after you get measles, your kid will be more vigorous and more energetic and will be stronger afterwards.

Are you kidding me? Nope. That is a belief. We don't want to protect our kids from measles with a vaccine because it's an important trial though, go through so that they can come out the other end tougher. What kind of weird vision quest BS is that? Follow your spirit wolf across the ridge and your return of man. What is that nonsense?

It's the same kind of nonsense that interpreted ancient Sanskrit to mean that measles is a gift from the goddess and so therefore we shouldn't vaccinate because we're refusing a gift from a goddess. I just want to say I hope that my previous comment was not offensive to anyone who believes in vision quests or spirit animals. I think that that's wonderful. I think that's fine. I know that's a cultural issue. I was specifically trying to insult people who don't get vaccinated. And I think that they're criminals and they should go to jail. Yeah. If you go on a vision quest in order to avoid getting measles instead of getting a vaccine,

then that's the problem. Then you're the problem, right? Yes. This is what's most frustrating. So why aren't people getting vaccinated? And I think, I'll say it, but I think most people know this. So there has been a perception that, and we talked about this in the vaccine episode, that vaccines are dangerous, that there's some sort of plot perpetrated by the government to harm people and specifically

that they're causing things like autism or their learning disabilities or problems in children. This is wrong. It's just wrong. It's not true. There's no evidence for it. And in fact, there's tons of evidence against it. Look this up for yourself, research this topic, there is nothing to the link between any vaccine and autism, specifically the MMR. Dr. the former Dr. Wakefield who perpetrated this myth is a criminal. He has the blood of children on his hands and so does Jenny McCarthy while we're at it. And there is... And Rob Schneider put him on blast. And there is no link between it.

And what's frustrating about this is even as I say these words, I could quote to you studies and I could show you the links and I could give you all the information. Studies are showing that trying to educate people about vaccines only makes them more entrenched in their belief that vaccines are bad. The best we can hope for folks is cure herd immunity from dumb. Like talk to people. If don't let this stand like don't let and more over. Please, I'm begging you, don't let politicians turn this into an issue, where which insinuates their two sides.

If someone says that it should be a personal choice, please show them a picture of our baby and say that you're an idiot and you'll never get my vote. I understand there's going to be things that we're politically divided on. I get that. Please don't let this brainless, stupid, reactionary nonsense be one of those issues. Please, for me, thanks. And I know we're pretty much in the choir here. I have a hard time imagining the person who's captivated by the history of medicine

and yet refuses to embrace any of it. One interesting suggestion I saw in Forbes was maybe we should start suing people who don't vaccinate their children. Fine. Specifically, if their children make our children sick, I'm all for that. Whatever it takes to stop them.

You know, it's interesting, Justin and I live in one of the two states that are left that don't allow religious exemptions from vaccines, which actually they're trying to overturn that. Please don't. Please don't. Please don't. Please don't.

Please don't. Please don't. Please don't. Please don't. Please don't. Please don't a good thing because here's the thing. If you're not going to get vaccinated, if you're not, well, I shouldn't say this. If you're not going to vaccinate your children, your children shouldn't be allowed to attend school. You should have to keep them at home. But then where do we stop that?

Because obviously, then your children can still go to Disneyland and give everybody measles. And that's a big problem. So just vaccinate your kids and then they won't get sick and our kids won't get sick. And we can all be happy in the fact that as a big problem. So just vaccinate your kids and then they won't get sick and our kids won't get sick. And we can all be happy in the fact that as a species, we have advanced to the point where we can protect ourselves from awful infectious diseases that still kill people.

Somebody's kid is gonna die from measles. In America. Which doesn't make it more important than in any other country. I don't mean that like, it more important than any other country. I don't mean that like, it's happening here now. I mean like, in a country that like eradicated it. It in 2000, that's insane. It's insane, please.

This vaccine has saved millions of lives since it was created. Literally, then there are, I'm not making this number up. The calculations are that we have saved millions of lives by using the measles vaccine. We are saving millions of lives in other countries. You know how far mothers walk in places in Sub-Saharan Africa to get their child a measles vaccine? Do you know how far they walk to have access

to these vaccines? They're free at your health department. Your pediatrician will give them to your family doctor. Please, I know. Please don't take this for granted. Vaccines have saved millions of lives. It's completely safe. Get your vaccines.

Unless you're one of the few people who can't. I know you were getting preachy, guys. Sorry about that. I don't mean to be. It's just... It's so easy. Just get this to, you're shots. Cause I get that. I do. They make it. There's a syrup you can drink. You don't have your shot. No, no, no,

you got to get a shot. No, no, you got to. No, you got to. No problem. No, that doesn't work. No, get the get the get the get the shot. No, get the shot. get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get

the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get the get to our admittedly a little Piquitchi podcast, saw bones. Thanks to people tweeting about it at saw bones. Wanna make mention some unfortunate news here if you are coming to the LA show. Am I brother, am I brother me is doing this weekend? We will not be able to attend that.

Unfortunately, it just so we couldn't, we thought the baby could do it, but maybe can't right now. Sorry. She's just little and we're just not ready for this. We're not quite ready, but so we apologize for that. And we do hear they have a substitute podcast of some sort, so we are apolog we are apology apologizing for that, but we did wanna let you know,

because I didn't wanna leave you hanging. And we will miss you. And we will miss you very much. Thank you to people tweeting about the show, like Katie Farina, Tiana, Zach Weekly, Hans, Hans Starbuck, I guess, I was all I'll go with. Ray Hansangara, Hannah Craig, Lizzie Care, Paul Manone, LeValley, Caleb Mislik, Joan Christian,

it's an Meredith M. Graham Rowett, missed in history, Nicole Graham's wife, Kate Baldwin was very nice and permitted our show on the listen podcast. So thank you, Kate, thank you, Broadway's Kate Baldwin, Baldwin, who I would always make people refer to me as Broadway's Justin McRoy, if I was a Broadway. That's just me.

Do you want me to call you that? I would appreciate it. Yeah, Broadway Justin, McElroy. But thank you all so much for tweeting at us. We're at saw bones on Twitter. So you can just tweet about the show, tweet a link to our iTunes page. It's iTunes.com slash saw bones. You can review us, Radist.

You know, all the good, subscribe. Oh, good stuff. So thank you to that. Thank you, Max Fund Network for having us on. It's part of their Max Fund family. There's a lot of great shows, all waiting for you for free at maxwemfund.org. There's the players, Judge John Hodgman.

You can listen to stop podcasting yourself, memory palace, risk, Wambam Power, Wambam other, other lady, the lady, destination DIY. There are so many that you could be enjoying right now. My brother and my brother and me. Thank you, dear. That's a show I do with my brother. But there's a lot. So go to Max5fund.org and you can listen to all those shows. Thanks, TaxPairge, for letting us use their song, Medicine, at the Intro and Outro of our program.

And thanks so much to you for listening. And thank you, Sydney. Thank you, Broadway Justin. Let's catch it on already. Until next Tuesday, I'm Justin McAroy. I'm Sydney McAroy. Always don't drill a hole in your head. Alright! Maximumfund.org

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