Sawbones: A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine - Sawbones: Perkins' Tractors

Episode Date: August 24, 2018

Justin and Dr. Sydnee explore the history of Perkins' Tractors which are both 1. not what they sound like and 2. not what they claim to be. Mysterious! Music: "Medicines" by The Taxpayers

Saubones is a show about medical history, and nothing the hosts say should be taken as medical advice or opinion. It's for fun. Can't you just have fun for an hour and not try to diagnose your mystery boil? We think you've earned it. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy a moment of distraction from that weird growth. You're worth it. that weird growth. You're worth it. Alright, time is about to books. One, two, one, two, three, four. We came across a pharmacy with a toy and that's busted out. We were sawed through the broken glass and had ourselves a look around.

Some medicines, some medicines that escalate my cop for the mouth Hello, we're ready and welcome to Saul bones a metal tour of Miss guy the medicine. I'm your co-host Justin McElroy I'm Sydney McElroy. Thank you to Oprah for coming by to introduce me Justin McElroy. Do you really think if Oprah actually came by to introduce one of us it would be you? That's fair. Yeah of our life choices, I think Oprah would support you as more. If we're being honest, I'm not saying she would be against either of our life choices. I'm just saying if she could only introduce one of us. Oprah, choose your favorite. Tweet now, Oprah and vote.

Oprah, who is definitely listening to our podcast. Only one vote in this poll will be accepted and it's Oprah's. If you're not Oprah, don't waste your time. listening to our podcast. Only one vote in this poll will be accepted and it's Oprah's. For not Oprah, don't waste your time. So we are going to continue our combo. Uh, our three. Is this three in a row? Is it? Yes.

Yes, it is. It is. It is from, uh, I think I'm killing it next week. See, see, be oil to placebo effect to Perkins tractors. That's right. I kind of referenced this in our last episode on placebo effect that there was one of the more influential experiments that was done to kind of illustrate the placebo effect was in reference to these things called Perkins tractors, which I didn't know much about.

I know about this one. I remember these ads from when I was a kid. Oh boy. Hi everybody, this is Diane Perkins. The Perkins Tractors, I want to encourage you to come on in this weekend. We got a big library day sale kicking off just when we're in my gym.

The price is going to grow up and the kids are going to grow up. So make sure you get on down to Perkins Tractors and get yourself one of these fine machines. We got 0% fine dancing. No such things back credit here Perkins tractors. Come on down, get one of these bad boys and start tracking today. Is that what you do with tractors? Tonight.

Tracked in today. He was arrested shortly after. I love you. I love you for your farming skills, mate. Yeah. Yeah. Just, yeah. Tracting. That's not the kind of tractor I'm talking about.

All right. Nora's Dan Perkins. Is that who was? Who was Dan? Dan. No, you didn't see us ads? No. You used to be on after ballard.

You were ballard, so. B-A-D-L-L-A. R-D-S-It's true. D-J-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D- B-A-D-L-L-A-R-D-S, it's true. We're the best in the test. Now prices are all the rest. Ballerts brings the best to you. Yeah, nobody outside this area will know that, right? Google, Google that on YouTube.

Ballerts animated intro. Or don't, or just listen to our podcast. Yeah, no Definitely gonna continue at some point. You dancing pigs. Sorry. I'm not gonna detract From what you're doing anymore Now This is really should we just start over now? No, we're not start over. Okay, good. We're gonna keep on tracking. Good. Okay.

I don't mean to be in, listen, I don't want to be intractable, but I refuse to stop. I just can't get any traction with this topic. There we go. So we're not talking about Dan Perkins. We're talking about Elisha Perkins. I'll retract what I said earlier about Dan Perkins. Born in 1741 in Connecticut. It's a beautiful tract of land right there. Connecticut.

Okay. Okay. He was trained in medicine by his father, also Dr. Perkins. Okay. Respected physician of the time of the era of the region. And he initially started practicing, I mean the typical medicine of the day. I'm not gonna say legitimate high quality medicine because that was hard to come by in the early 1800s. Sure. However, it was the accepted medical practice of the day, right? It was legitimate as it got back then.

Sure enough. He had an interest in teaching and he had a huge practice, and he started contributing to the local academy, and he was making a name for himself, doing Daddy Dr. Perkins proud. All right. Okay. That was how he started out.

His patients were very high profile. He took care of several members of Congress. Mm-hmm. Patients were very high profile. He took care of several members of Congress. But Dr. Perkins, the younger was not satisfied with mere goodness. He sought greatness. And in this time, in order to be considered a really great physician, you had to do something more than just like take really good care of the people where you practice. You had to do something more than just like take really good care of the people

where you practice. You had to make something. Okay. You know, find a cure, create a new treatment. Progress. Yes. What's the metric of success? Exactly. Make a device. Do something. Something that you could name after yourself and that would leave, leave its mark on the rest of medical history so that someday Dr. Sidney McRoy could make a podcast about it. So he based his invention on some observations that he made during a surgical procedure. He noticed that when he touched muscle fibers with metal instruments that they seemed to contract, like the muscle twitched when he touched muscle fibers with metal instruments that they seemed to contract, like the muscle twitched when he touched it with the metal instruments. And he started to repeat this with wooden substances and other materials and things, cloth,

whatever, and it didn't seem to react the same way. So he began to theorize that there was something in the metal that had an effect on the human body that wasn't present in other substances. Metal had this like unique influence on our body, right? Because he observed that. He paired this with an observation he made during a tooth extraction, and I find this observation unlikely. However, this is his recorded finding that he based his future experiments pond. That when he separated the gum from the tooth using a metal scalpel, ah!

The pain seemed to go away. Bulk. I have to assume that the patient passed out at the point. Yeah, I'm waiting to shock. And so this is why they weren't reporting pain. Whatever the situation was, he thought that something in the metal blade, some some property that is intrinsic to the metal completely eliminated the pain that the patient should have been feeling during the procedure. Okay.

So, um, and finally, he had an observation that if he took a metal instrument and just placed it, he was about to remove a tumor, which at the time tumor would have been used for any kind of growth or anything underneath the skin that you couldn't tell what it was. Okay. So who knows who to move in there? Yeah, some sort of mass under the skin he was removing. And it was inflamed. This was an enlarged inflamed mass. And he just laid the scalpel blade on top of it. And the patient claimed all the pain vanished from just laying the metal blade on top of it.

Even before he actually excised the tumor. And somehow just even touching the metal to the top of it, even before he actually excised the tumor. And that somehow just even touching the metal to the skin made the pain go away. So from all this, from these observations, true or not, he created an instrument. He tried various kinds of metal. He tried to make different compounds and apply them to painful places on patients. A weird Dr. Sous thing that we're doing here. To see what would relieve the pain better, which compound was the best, what kind of metal. And eventually he arrived at a specific alloy that he found most effective. So he had these metal prongs and he would lay them on people and he claimed that they could relieve pain. And on in 1795 he took all these findings and

his new instrument and he presented it to the Connecticut Medical Society and said, look at what I have created. There it's metal that makes your pain go away. It's metal that can heal you. Everybody was kind of confused. A lot of them were quite skeptical, and a few of them were completely outraged and immediately decried this invention. It sounded a lot like animal magnetism,

which we've done a show about before. And that was real, right? No, it wasn't. That one was not. And this seemed to echo that. And at this point, everybody kind of had decided that animal magnetism was fake. And so since this was sort of similar to that concept,

a lot of doctors were very kind of scandalized by its presentation. Like, oh, now Dr. Perkins, we kind of thought you were a real, like a real one, like an actual doctor. And now it seems like kind of you're into this fake stuff and now we're all a little outraged. But the overall opinion, and this is, I think this is very typical for doctors. When you hear about somebody doing, like they say something and you think, well, that seems completely outrageous and I think you're full of it.

Instead of saying that to their colleague, they said, we think we need some more evidence of this, Dr. Perkins. So why don't you go back to Connecticut and, well, he's in Connecticut. Go back to your home and work on it some more and bring us some more results and let us know when you figured some more out.

You're joking, but that's probably the healthiest place for you to be, right? You don't want to dismiss new stuff out of hand, but you also don't want to immediately accept things without proper proof, right? I think generally speaking, that's probably the best place to be. I think if a guy comes to you with a piece of metal and says, if I lay it on your tumor, your pain goes away, I'd be a little suspicious. Well, people were probably very suspicious the first time someone told them that a tiny droplet of an herb

in a thousand percent solution of water could cure their arthritis and then look where we are now. It doesn't. It doesn't. It doesn't. Dr. Perkins, I don't know what his mood was at this point in history. I don't have evidence to tell me how he felt about his presentation to the Connecticut Medical Society, but I do know what he did. And what he did was say, well, screw those guys.

I need to make some cash. Yeah, I need to get paid. So on February 19th, on February 19th, 1796, he patented what from henceforth will be known as Perkins tractors. They were two, three inch metal rods with a point at the end, like round it at one end and point eight the other. He claimed that they were made of some unusual metal alloys that were very specialized and secretive, and he couldn't tell you everything, but trust me, they're the best metals that have unique healing properties. They were probably actually just brass and steel.

Perfect. But you'll never know. It's been lost in history because they're so secretive. Once he patented them so that nobody else could steal this really A-plus idea, he began using them to, as he put it, draw off the noxious electrical fluid that lay at the root of suffering. Perfect. So basically any pain that you had, he felt he could remove the essence of the pain from

your body by simply placing these metal tractors on your skin and sometimes moving them in certain patterns. Sometimes you had to actually move them around, but please no, they're not doing anything to you. They don't mean it's not cutting anything out, he's not stimulating your skin in any special way with them. He's just kind of, they're just, he's just putting them on you and maybe moving them about a bit.

And with that, he could cure. Can I ask you a question? Was this a home treatment that you could buy one of these things and do it yourself or is it you had to go get the treatment from a licensed professional? Initially, you had to go get the treatment from a licensed professional, but then he started selling them for about $25 a pair.

You know how they sell the LASIC? Pretty pricey for $17.96. Yeah, okay. You know how they sell the lacing? Pretty pricey for $17.96. Yeah, okay. You know how they sell the lacing machines because they were like, well, anybody can do this. This is actually fun. We'll just sell you the machine. I don't know why you're even coming in.

This is kind of like that. It's like, we'll just sell you this highly sophisticated medical thing because it's real and you should be able to handle it. You can do it yourself. For only $25 a pair. because it's real and you should be able to handle it. You can do it yourself. You can do it yourself. For only $25 a pair. So he began selling these and he said that they could treat any pain complied including

these are just some of the things that you could get treated with your purging tractors. Rheumatism gout, eye inflammation, aerosypolis pleuracy, teterous seizures, lock jaw bruises, sprains, tumors, burns, headaches, toothaches, earaches, backaches, armpit and leg pain, breast pain, side pain, and skin conditions. Can somebody please stitch together all of those that Sydney has ever done and just make one huge, like this can treat, I mean, goes on for four minutes.

And then we just need to make up a medication and start selling it, we'll be billionaires. Cures are all. Quickly. Here, I'll give some audio for the beginning. Cures are all, is a real medicine, and it can treat, and then we'll just list it all. Let's do that.

By the way, I don't know what Tetters, where? Tetters. Tetters, I look the same. Sounds like an old-timey name for a real thing that we don't use what tetters were. Tetters. Tetters, I look so. Sounds like an old timey name for a real thing that we don't use anymore. Like, how people call it their nerves, you know what I mean? Although people definitely still use nerves. But yeah, I think I've never heard it used in common practice,

but it's like a colloquial term for any any skin condition that has vesicles, like little fluid filled blisters and is itchy and is red. So it could be like eczema or ringworm or psoriasis. So anyway, just in case you're curious, I didn't know what tatters was. I had to look it up. So with his device safely patented, Perkins began touring the country to market it and sell it before I guess the Connecticut medical society or anybody

else could stop him. Yeah, just a one step ahead of the law that like all great medicine. So he started out in Philadelphia where Congress happened to be meeting at the time and it went over, it was great in Philadelphia. Oh, they're wild for it there. Philly loved it. Yes. He sold the patent to make it in Philadelphia. I'm guessing like you could

sell the patent to different places to like make it there. If you're doing something at this time period, it sounds like you can do it or the heck you want. Yeah, I think you can do anything. It was the board of the Ohm's house. He sold it to them so they could begin making the tractors and selling them there in Philadelphia. And he began to treat members of Congress with it. That's a great way to raise the profile of your fake medical device, right? They were crazy about it. Even George Washington bought a pair of Perkins

metal tractors. Wow. So did the Supreme Court justice, Chief Justice Oliver Ellsworth, bought some and then wrote a letter of introduction So did the Supreme Court justice, chief justice, Oliver Ellsworth, bought some and then wrote a letter of introduction for him to John Marshall saying, listen, Perkins is an A.O.K. dude and his tractors are great. And you should tell all your friends and family about it.

And he doesn't say like, don't give him any trouble. It's just like like this is fine. Trust me, this is fine kind of letter. Which I don't know, I mean like a letter of introduction that's kind of, you don't do a lot of that anymore. It's like an outdated, you know what I mean? Yeah, also to explain why I was so excited, John Marshall obviously we don't know

is the namesake of Russian university, the alma mater of both the hosts of this program Chief justice to the Supreme Court. Yes, and statue and a statue definitely a statue Never is work as a statue on campus. We're Riley is right now. Yeah. That is nothing to do with me. That is nothing to do with me. Anyway, he wasn't satisfied with the US though, Perkins. That's not enough. Why just sell something here when you could sell it other places too.

So, he sent his son Benjamin Perkins, Ben Perkins, who had just graduated for me to go set up shop in London in actually the former home of One another famous doctor John Hunter and sell his tractors there He's real tractors. Mm-hmm. So he would see patients in the morning there Ben Perkins this now the Sun in in this place in London He set up shop and he would have people come in he would see them Definitely whatever was wrong with them would be treated come in, he would see them. Definitely whatever was wrong with them would be treated with the tractors. Of course, you're in

luck. I have these tractors. They treat that whatever that is. This is tractor friendly. Then he would sell them tractors. And then he would go do home visits all afternoon and evening to sell more tractors. They were five guineas a pair. Wow. So in London. So that is compared to the price. I'm assuming that's like that would have been equivalent to the 25 US at the time. I mean, I have to imagine, I mean, how much was a guinea? It was a, they don't use this coin anymore. So who knows? It's about a pound of shin and a shilling. So about wow. So like six, five shillings. So like, I mean, going by today's exchange rate is like, what, like, seven,

fifty. Yeah, man, you all get the deal. Well, but who knows what the, what the exchange rate was, the pound of the dollar in I mean yeah, maybe I guess revolutionary war Yeah, that's that's fit. Yeah, who knows I don't who knows anyway That's not the purpose of this podcast. So Benjamin Perkins selling his tractors making a name for his father all over London and he published. This is the thing. Don't put it in us by the way about that. I don't care. I do. Okay, tweet it, Sydney.

Wait a minute. I think it's interesting. He then published, and this is the thing you need to know about Ben Perkins, if you don't remember anything else, dude can name a book. Okay. He is, if we write another book, this is who we should go to for the title.

I mean, he's not with us anymore, but if we could. If we can channel him. Yes. He published the influence of metallic tractors on the human body in removing various painful inflammatory diseases such as rheumatism, pleuracy, some goutty affections, etc., etc., lately discovered by Dr. Perkins of North America and demonstrated in a series of experiments and observations by Professor Migs, Woodward Rogers, etc., etc. by which the importance of the discovery is fully ascertained and a new field of inquiry opened in the modern science of galvanism or animal electricity by

Benjamin Douglas Perkins AM's son of the discoverer. And it says here based on the novel push by Sapphire. These are the best-named books in it. There's more. Just wait, there's more. There's more? The first. Oh no. Let's head to the building.

Oh, this one hurts. Okay, let's go. The medicines, the medicines that ask you let my God for the mouth. Now, Sydney, you were, I would say, teasing me with some other great titles that Ben has worked up, and I hope you've got some of those in store for me. So let me just say at this point, Ben Perkins sales pitch is working really well overseas. The use of Perkins tractors has earned its own field of study of science, perconism. There are many enthusiastic followers now.

Sure to have a level of scrutiny. Yeah, once it has a name, it's real, right? It's perconism. That's it. That's what homieop they did. It's got a name, it's real now, right? Bokinism. Now, obviously, there were some doctors who began to fight against this.

There were doctors speaking out. I don't want to say that everybody was like, just going with the flow. There were people who were saying, listen, this can't be real. This doesn't make any sense. And also, how in the world do you expect us to trust you when you're making the device, you're selling the device, and you're saying everything can be treated with the device, and you expect us to trust you when you're making the device, you're selling the device and you're saying everything can be treated with the device and you profit off of that. That seems ethically weird.

questionable. But he had a lot of people jumping to his defense. Every time somebody questioned him, there were doctors, there were the heads of various medical societies as well as Jonathan Trumbull, the governor of Connecticut. Josiah Miggs was a Yale professor who wrote very influential, influential about how they were used on his son and that they were, he also mentioned by the way that they were great for pain and picking up walnuts. I don't know why that was mentioned, but you're great for picking a walnut. Yeah Medical tractors. I know

Pain in it turns out this isn't real the goodness is you can pick up on your walnut problems are solved What if we could use them on the chestnuts out in the yard with the spiky things on them? Oh, maybe Maybe they'd be good for that chestnut hey folks chestnut tree when you get it What if we could use them on the chestnuts out in the yard with the spiky things on them? Maybe. Maybe. Maybe they'd be good for that. Chestnut, hey folks, chestnut tree, when you get it, if you buy house the chestnut tree in it, it's going to seem real charming. And like a real nice chestnut throw seed on the open fire. What have you?

Folks, there's nothing sharper on this earth than the husk surrounding chestnuts. Yeah, they're like, they're these balls of hypodermic needles that fall from the trees over your children's swing set. It's a miserable plague. Chestnut trees are a miserable plague. And I think, Darius, say it, Earth would be better if we uprooted all of them and burned them in a big fire.

No, well, don't say that because maybe you would love our house with this beautiful chestnut tree. Hey, you're in the mood for my house. Do you like chestnuts? They'll go through your shoes. Oh, by the way, through your shoes. Even cooking them is a giant pain in the butt. Anyway, this is not about chestnuts. So Ben is still he was really been Perkins is really the reason he's got so successful. I mean, Elijah Maim, of course, he was the creator, the inventor, but Ben was not satisfied with one book.

He published another one. Every time they were called into practice, he just published more books to prove that they were working. So this one was experiments with the metallic tractors in rheumatism and gaudy affections, inflammation, and various tropical diseases is published by surgeons, hair, hole, and raf, translated into German by professor Toad, thence into English by Mr. Charles Comfmuller also reports demonstrating the efficacy of the metallic practice edited by Benjamin Douglas Perkins, son of the discoverer. That's a kid. I was gonna get that son of the discoverer. Yeah.

They got really hot in Denmark when the wife of a US diplomat took them with her there and started telling everybody about them and she was very popular. So everybody liked whatever she was doing and wanted to do it too. So like for a while, Perkins and them really took off in Denmark. It's very hot. Yeah, it was very hot in Denmark. Some people also began using them on animals

and it was in that book that I just mentioned, it was also noted they seem to work better on horses than cows and sheep. Okay. How you could tell. Sure. I don't know. You just ask the horses.

Is that horses? Well, at this point, the Connecticut Medical Society, I guess realized he wasn't coming back. Anybody see the life, shall we? It has been adjourned for that. What? We're at all Dr. Perkins, the elder go, I don't know, but you should see what his son's doing in London. Um, they were still waiting here back. He, he, they didn't hear back. So they met in May of that year and passed a resolution that basically says, this is fake

and this is very dangerous what he's doing. And we're very angry about it. And we basically say that this is disgraceful to the faculty and delusive to the ignorant and that we're going to expel him from the Connecticut Medical Society and he's he called it they called it delusive quackery. So quackery they they announced it. Yeah, but that's just like their opinion man. Sure, sure and's just like their opinion, man. Sure, sure. And I don't know that everybody all over the world

was listening to the Connecticut Medical Society's opinion. Maybe nobody. Yeah, they were, they were, they, they may have something, but also I'd like to hear some more about these cool walnut grabbing things that can fix my arthritis. So he was expelled. They even talked about how off it was. People were selling their horse and carriages to pay for these tractors, which is ironic

because once they had a tractor, they wouldn't need the horses anymore. Because no wrong. If it was still for wrong kind of, it was a, it's a different. Do you see? I thought we'd already established, but if I mean, these are definitely different tractors. Yes. Yes, but yes. No. Anyway, so, uh, the tractors are really hot. Ben Perkins is just selling the heck out of them overseas. In the US, things are starting to get a little shaky. And then John Law, John Science is starting to catch up with them. And then Dr. Perkins, the elder, turns his attention elsewhere because in 1798, yellow fever is ravaging

the United States. Did you know that back in the day. Yeah. I think we've said that before yellow fever used to be a problem in the US as in malaria. And Dr. Perkins wanted to be part of the fight against yellow fever. And so he actually he didn't use his tractors for this. He did not. He had his own mixture that he thought would be helpful with yellow fever because he had used it in the past for dysentery. And he thought that this was maybe going to be, although I don't think it was successful with dysentery. I don't know why he thought the yellow fever

was gonna be the ticket, but he tried anyway. Yeah, he made this mixture of vinegar and baking soda and hot water and administered it to people thinking it would cure them of their yellow fever. He went to Connecticut, but by then the epidemic was already kind of waning, so he went to Massachusetts and it was already starting to weigh in there. So he finally caught up with like the height of the epidemic in New York in the summer of 1799. He began using his new treatment. I don't know that it actually did any good.

And unfortunately, while he was trying to administer Help to the suffering he succumbed to yellow fever in the fall of that year Which I only mentioned before you give me hard time Because the tractors didn't stop Tractors now that wasn't the end of it because Ben Perkins is still overseas doing his, like, reclaiming his father's legacy by selling these, these tractors. He patented the tractors in London, he wrote more books, he started the Perkinian Institute. The Perkinian Institute?

Yes, the Perkinian Institute dedicated to the study and, and furthering of the science. The not so careful studying of pieces of metal that will fix you. Benjamin Franklin's son set on the board of the Perkinian Institute. Really? It was the nicest medical building in London at far out out shown the hospitals of the time.

They had a lot of money. They were selling useless things to people and people were buying them in droves. And you can read, in some of these books, you'll read like these claims by people who had been treated by them, who will say like, I know they worked for me. And there was even an account of a woman who was like,

I had this horrible bruise and my friend brought the tractors over and put them over the bruise and she swore the bruise was gone afterwards. I kind of thought it was still there, but she says it's gone. Yeah. That kind of claim. Yeah. Which is vicious at best. Anyway, this is where Dr. John Hagarth of Bath comes in

and this is where this intersects with placebo theory. Bath is lovely. Bath is lovely. We spent a lovely week there once, before we had kids. It wasn't lovely just because our kids weren't there, but that didn't hurt, I would say. It's a lovely area. It is lovely.

Paying tribute to Bath, which is lovely. Well, Dr. John Hagararth, he decided he was going to look into these tractors by creating some wooden tractors that looked as if they were identical to the metal tractors. They looked like they were made out of metal, but they were actually made out of wood. And he began treating patients with the wooden tractors the same way that they were being treated with metal tractors. And what he found is that they all responded the same. Either it worked or it didn't no matter what they were using.

And basically, he said, you know, all you had to do, actually he said this, all you have to do is tell them how well it's working while you're using it, and it works. Wow, that's it. Yeah, just hold the tractors over them and no matter what they're made out of, you just say, look how great this is working. These are so wonderful.

Do you know how many people these cured? Have you read the books? And basically at the end, the patients responded or they didn't, but it was the same no matter what. And so that kind of undid, the theory that the metal was the thing, curing people because obviously it didn't matter. And people began to talk about the placebo effect. And that was last week's episode. Just so you know, Ben Perkins made one last effort to refute this with one last great, great book. The last of his trilogy.

The last. I think there were more in there. New cases of practice with Perkins patent metallic tractors on the human body and on animals, but especially on infants and horses, chiefly from the clerical and medical professions, with a computation of every attack upon the metallic practice. I don't care. You can't have a phrase like, but especially on infants and horses in any context in the English. I cannot think of a context in which, but especially on infants and horses that like, unless it's like diapers look cute, especially on infants and horses. Wait, do they look cute on horses though?

They can be cute. I mean, no, you're right. No, okay. I don't want to see diapers on horses. I don't have any problem with horses. I just don't want to see that. Especially on infants on horses. I don't have any problem with horses. I don't want to see especially on infants and horses. Despite this last gasp effort from Perkins the younger, this was kind of the end of the tractors. They really started to fall out of favor. The

Perkini and Institute closed and people in Denmark weren't using them anymore and everybody in the UK was kind of up to what was going on in the US. There were enough people yelling about it that that was kind of the end. Everybody had decided that they were probably fake and we should probably start using them. Ben Perkins high-tailed it back to New York with like $50,000 in profit, which again, probably a lot for the town. Yeah, it seems good. And he went into publishing because obviously that's where his talent's really lied all along.

And that was the end of Perkins Tractors. Well, congratulations. To Perkins, he had a good run of it, I think, made a lot of money, helped a lot of people. And I think we can all agree that this is a great success. I mean, he thought he did, they thought he did. Somebody thought he did. And yet you, Dr. McLeod, remain, see what I mean, unconvinced of the power of Perkins tractors. Well, I mean, they were fake, they didn't work. I don't worry, little lady,

we got some pink ones for you too here in the back. Perkins tractors take care of guys, girls, that we don't care, we got tractors in every color of the rainbow. Well, I think we're done. I think we're all out of time. Hey, no, let me just, I don't know, I gotta, have you heard the good news?

I got some tracks here for you. For you, thank you. I'm kind of an outsider. Tell people about our website and whatnot. Do your thing there. Oh. Um, uh, he starts witnessing about the gospel of Jesus Christ. If you let him keep going, that's the character eventually.

Okay. He's staunchly conservative. I think that's deeply faithful. I think I think this can, this this needs a little more work. I'm going to take it back to the wood shed. All right. Thank you so much for listening to our program. If you want to listen to more episodes of the show,

you can subscribe on a podcast platform of your choice or on iTunes, which is also a great place to leave a review if you don't mind. That actually really, really helps us out. So if you have not done that, please do so so. Also we have a book coming out July, so it was last month. That's not when it's coming out. And next month is September and then after that is October and that is Devo in the book is coming out. You can go to bit.ly4thslash the the saw bones book to pre-order it and also we're going to be doing a signing and talk at the Tribeca Barnes and Noble store. That is going to be on October 17th. You can get details about that on our Facebook page of

of Salmons. So you can go enjoy that and we hope that you can make it out for that. All you got to do is buy the book on that day. If you buy the book that day, then you you can come to that signing and the talking. It'll be Udels of Fun. So thanks to taxpayers for the use of their song medicines is the introdels of Fun. So thanks to taxpayers for the use of their song Medicines is the intro and outro part program and thanks to you for listening. We appreciate you very much and we hope you have enjoyed yourself. But until next week my name is just to Mac Roy. I'm Sydney Mac Roy. And as always don't drill a hole in your head. Alright!

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