Sawbones: A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine - Sawbones: The Herpes Thanksgiving Special

Episode Date: November 21, 2018

This Thanksgiving, Dr. Sydnee and Justin invite you on their ambitious quest to use the biggest family meal of the year to destigmatize herpes. No more waiting for your problematic uncle to make things weird; this you're YOU'LL be the one starting uncomfortable conversations. Music: "Medicines" by The Taxpayers

Sawbones is a show about medical history, and nothing the hosts say should be taken as medical advice or opinion. It's for fun. Can't you just have fun for an hour and not try to diagnose your mystery boil? We think you've earned it. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy a moment of distraction from that weird growth. You're worth it. that weird growth. You're worth it. Alright, time is about to books. One, two, one, two, three, four. I'm not co-host Justin McElroy and I'm Sydney McElroy Happy happy Thanksgiving Sydney. Why thank you Justin. Oh, oh He's just around the corner. That's really that's really it for Thanksgiving for me It's just a prelude to for me, it don't get better than seeing that

dead jolly, that jolly o'fella on the sleigh at the end of the part of the store parade. Okay. That's when the season is here, folks. Did you say department store parade? Like, we're not allowed to say Macies? Yeah. Now, I was just trying to like, I was trying to heighten the absurdity of Christ the season being rung in by a department store chain, by saying department store.. Uh-huh. By saying, the department store. Oh, okay. I guess it didn't work.

I thought it was sort of like an Archie comics when they like have the names of celebrities, but they're off by like one letter. If you have to ask yourself if I am or am not referencing Archie comics, you are usually going to be a lot safer going with the nay on that, but I mean, it's always possible. It'll be like Bruce Springstone. Okay. You've kind of pivoted this into an opportunity to talk about our cheese, which I this

fine. I saw. I don't want to talk about our cheese. I mean, I do, but that's not not for this show. I want to talk about herpes. Oh, okay. This is our, this is our Thanksgiving special. Huh?

Yes. Herpes. Herpes Simplex virus, herpes. Okay. Herpes, herpes, simplex virus, HSV. Okay. Why, uh, Reese? Here's the thing. First of all, a lot of people want us to talk about herpes. Thank you to Kevin and Ransom and Christine and Bradley

for suggesting something very easily searchable HSV. I think a lot of other people have suggested cold sores, but that's, that's a lot. That people have suggested cold sores, but that's a lot. That would have been a whole episode of thanking everybody. And also to search cold sores in the email, it just was harder. Anyway, so thank you everybody who's recommended this topic. I don't know why we haven't covered it. It's very, it's a very prevalent viral infection. And I don't know why we haven't gotten to it yet. Yeah, I mean, I think there's some people think it's kind of a yucky to talk about.

There is. There's a lot of stigma when it comes to herpes. I was thinking about that episode of friends where Joey does the bus ads and the subway ads for getting tested for sexually transmitted infections, you know, as most do. If you are ever wondering whether or not I remember a specific friend's episode, the answer to that is usually going to be nay. Anyway, Herpes viruses are incredibly common.

HSV is so common that if you're an adult and you're listening to this podcast, you probably carry some type of HSV. Uh, I don't think I do, but that probably do. We do. Apparently. We probably, the majority of adults probably do. I say probably because we don't test people for it and and I'll get into why. But herpes is horribly stigmatized,

and this Thanksgiving, I want to give you the information to empower you to go spend this joyous time with your friends and family destigmatizing herpes. This is the Thanksgiving that you destigmatize herpes. That's right. You've waited long enough. Herpes viruses are very common among animal species. It's interesting humans get two types.

Oh, lucky us. Most don't. Generally speaking, when I'm talking about herpes, you're probably thinking of one of two types of infections. Because I'm sticking to HSV Herpes Simplex viruses. I'm not going to get into like shingles and zoster. I'm really sticking to the two things you would think of, which are either cold sore, so oral herpes, which generally are caused by HSV one, and then genital herpes, which

are generally caused by HSV two, although either can cause either, both can do both. But generally, you see HSV one in the mouth and HSV2 in the genitals. Generally. Humans got HSV1 before we evolved into humans. Wow, really. Like they infected one of our chimpanzee predecessors, evolutionary predecessors. We got HSV2 though after we were already humans, like after we had evolved into at least to Homo erectus, at least from like a primate predecessor.

Still extremely old. But think about that for a second, where is your mind going? There was a Homo erectus who got genital herpes from a plio Pleistocene hominin paranthropus boseye also known as nutcracker man. He looks so pleased with yourself right now. I was. Nutcracker.

It's because I guess he had these like big flat teeth that were good for cracking nuts. Uh huh. But nutcracker man gave so much more multi level than that. He's got a lot to offer. Don't stop at the teeth folks. That's as far as a lot of people say. He gave a homo erectus, genital herpes.

Okay. And that's how it got into human. I sell it. Can I say that? I celebrate that. I sell right there right to have whatever kind of loving relationship they want to. Unlike my wife who's ready to cast scorn. I'm not because there it is quite possible that Homo erectus just ate nutcracker man, and that's how we got herpes from them.

I'm sorry nutcracker man for all the disparaging things that we've said and for eating you. I'm, yeah. Sorry my great-grandfather ate nutcracker man. I'd say it goes a little further back. Great, great grandfather. A little further. Great, great, great.

Many people are infected with HSV, as I've said, and for the most part, it causes what really, like from a purely medical perspective, and this is not getting into the stigma or the psychological effects of getting a sexually transmitted infection, just like purely medically speaking, the actual damage it does to the human body is not, I mean, it's not that severe. You get a cold sore. It goes away. Maybe another one comes back.

You get some sores on your genitals, then they go away. So like, as far as like physical damage to the human body, it's fairly benign infection, right? I'm taking word for it. Yes. A lot of people carry around and don't know they have it. So in that way, it's very benign. I have to take your word for it. Yes. A lot of people carry around and don't know they have it. So, in that way, it's very benign.

You might be carrying herpes and have no clue. So, for you, as a physical effect on your body, it's not the worst case scenario, right? Right. Now, it can do some things. I say this to differentiate it from some of the more serious things that this virus can do. It can cause things like encephalitis, like an inflammation of the brain, which is obviously a much bigger problem. It can cause infections in newborns, which can be very serious. It can

cause some infections in your eyes. You can get some other things on other parts of your body. There's one that I always like to talk about. Herpes gladiatorum. Gladiatorum. Gladiotorum. I always talk about the name. It seems like we have maybe it's named. It's named for wrestlers. Oh, gladiatorum. Oh, okay.

name for wrestlers because it's also called wrestlers. Herpes or Matt Herpes or scrumpox, which is a horrible name. The worst word you've ever said. You can get it on. You can get other places on your trunk from like contact with wrestlers, you know. Any wrestlers? Well, no, I'm not. Any, like wrestlers, you have heard me.

Preach any wrestler, who you wrestlers with. Not any wrestlers. There's also one called herpetic witlow, which is on the fingers, just in case you're curious. The, like I said, the most common manifestations are the source of your mouth, or the source of your genitals. And some, and as far as the presentation, there's a huge variety. Some people carry it around and don't really know they have it because either they're

outbreak, the first one was so minimal. They didn't even notice or they got it. They didn't really know what it was. It went away and never had another one. Or as other people might have multiple instances of source throughout their life. It just depends. It varies from person to person. It is much more severe if you are in some way immunocompromised.

If so, if your immune system cannot respond as most due to an infection, you could get a much more severe infection. It is an ancient disease. The word herpes comes from the Greek to creep because the sores tend to creep. And when we go back to like, Hippocrates writing about herpes,

it's important to note that he was talking about probably what we know as HSV, but he was also probably talking about shingles as aster. He was also probably talking about chicken pox. He was also probably talking about a variety of other skin conditions, viral or non-viral, that just kind of looks similar.

So it's hard to differentiate if we look at ancient texts. Like everybody always likes to talk about plenty, the elder had some wild ideas about shingles and zoster and about what would happen if the infection wrapped around your whole body and you would die, and it would be terrible. And anyway, he was probably talking about a different thing. So it all looked the same.

They used the same word, herpes, because it was a creeping skin infection, but they weren't necessarily always discussing HSV. Roman Emperor Tiberius tried to stop the spread of herpes. He at least identified that somehow it was something that was communicable. And specifically, he was probably focused on cold source. Because those are, I mean, those are easily visible, right?

That was probably the reason they were the most. Yeah, I mean, you could look at a potential kissing partner and see cold source. Whenever I'm on a first aid, I always like to address them as potential kissing partner. I'm just saying, you have a potential kissing partner. No, it's a sexy way of saying that I'm just saying, you have potential kissing partner. No, it's a sexy way of saying it. I'm down. So he banned public kissing. Oh, no.

To try to stop the spread. I'm going to move out of this stupid country. There weren't a lot of, I mean, there were a lot of probably herbal type cures and things like that. I mean, it's important to remember cold sores then as now go away. They run their course, right? Like you get a cold sore, it hurts, and it goes away. And it might come back later, but it goes away on its own. So people probably put stuff on it in the meantime. I was usually triggered by trauma. They can be stress or trauma or illness or things like that.

Ring the mouth. Like any time I bite my lip, I just know I'm going to get one there and I always turn into one. It's the worst. And you're probably, it is important to know there's the herpes virus-induced ulcers that are, you know, that we're talking about. There's also apthas ulcers in the mouth, which aren't necessarily the same thing, but can result, just ulcers that can result from trauma, like biting the inside of your lip or your mouth. Maybe it's just those though, because I'm going

to go on the outside of my mouth. Yeah, yeah, same here. But also, like, I always know if I eat some really acidic things, drink some acidic things, that'll happen, or when I'm sick. But these same things can bring out herpes. They use to consider treating them with hot irons to cauterize the source. It's brutal. Not a popular treatment though because they just go away. Yeah, I'm good. And they already hurt. And now that would hurt more.

A lot of people wrote about herpes. Everybody always likes to mention that Shakespeare wrote about herpes. Oh, what he's have. In Romeo and Juliet, when he talks about, or Lady's Lips, who's straight on Kisses Dream, which off the angry Mab with blisters plague, because their breasts with sweet meats tainted are. That's nice. And I said, you did a really good job of respecting the I am and the pentameter and that. Thank you. Thank you. Great job. Anyway. I put that in there purely because everybody who likes to talk about the history of her bee seems to like to mention that Shakespeare wrote about it. So I don't know if that makes it cooler. Trendier? It's like listen. I am on trend. Shakespeare wrote about this.

It's like, listen, I am on trend. Shakespeare wrote about this. We figured out in the late 1800s and the early 1900s that Herpes Sources were distinct from all these other creeping infections, and that they were caused by a virus, and that it was infectious, and eventually that there were two separate types. And I don't want to get into that too much because here's the truth. It wasn't that big a deal for a long time. We just, we had, listen, there we are dying for so many reasons.

It wasn't that big a deal. And so certainly like one of the herbal cures I saw, like Tanzi was a common thing to put on it. But no, I mean like a lot of people weren't going for the hot irons because, who cares? Everybody has them. They're super common. It goes away.

We can live with it. That was really the idea. In the realm, I was trying to find weird, herpes cures, and there really aren't a lot that are easy to research because they were so often overlapped with other skin infections. The most common one I found was a tree to do Dr. Oz. So I found the clip from Dr. Oz to look for a weird. Welcome back to the show, Dr. Oz. By the way, I want to treat always a pleasure to have you here.

Thank you for joining us. I wouldn't have believed this if I hadn't seen the clip myself. He was talking with two other, he was talking with two guests on the show, two women who have herpes. And he had them both put on headbands that had like different triggers of herpes. So like getting back to like one said stress, one said illness. And they formed a herpes train.

Uh-huh. And they made it like a chuchu train around the stage. Folks, he's got an hour to fill every day. You deal with that pressure and let me know how you handle it. Anyway, some stuff that he recommends, which is probably in line with a lot of the stuff throughout history that it's been recommended,

is like, seepa tea bag in hot water, steepa tea bag, not seepa steep, a tea bag in hot water, and then put it on there and it'll dry it out. People always love to dry things out. I found that. That's always an alternative medicine that it'll dry it out. People always love to dry things out. I found that. That's always an alternative medicine. It'll dry it out. Okay. Thanks.

That doesn't, whatever. They say that the tannins will do that. Lemon balm, eat foods rich in lysine, low in arginine, eat yogurt. Okay. I looked at the... Eat yogurt. It's pretty good advice for pretty much all time. Sure. I mean, eat yogurt. Like, eat looked at the... You know, it's pretty good advice for pretty much all the time. Sure.

I mean, eat yogurt. Like, eat yogurt. That's great. But I looked into some of these things, by the way, and as far as I can tell, there was a study done once that suggested that a whole lot of lysine in your body can help, like, suppress the virus somewhat. What's the richer rich in lysine? Largely like meat, and then things like seeds or nuts. And there was, there was like some evidence

that if you could keep your lysine level in your body at a certain level that perhaps in some people, it might suppress the virus once you've already gotten it somewhat, but the evidence wasn't strong. And another study said it really doesn't work unless you also limit your arginine. And then it said, well, never mind, it doesn't work at all. So I don't know.

Dr. Osmeita trained to describe it. Thanks Dr. Osmeita. You can watch that a few. If you feel so inclined for centuries, though, Herpes was something we didn't really get too troubled over. Even as we started to really care about sexually transmitted infections,

which you can really trace back to, like the World Wars, World War I, a lot of soldiers went away and then came back with what we're called at the time, social diseases. Oh, I'll polite. Social diseases. And that became, that kind of led to this public panic, like this idea that that was going to happen anytime you had sex and at the time, let's be honest, not with your monogamous

married partner was kind of the implication. And so there were all these sexually transmitted infection awareness campaigns, but even then they weren't talking about herpes. The itch down there was not that big a deal. It was really just syphilis, gonorrhea. Those were the things, um, shankroyd. Those were the things people were really concerned about.

It didn't become a problem until the 70s. I'm going to tell you just, but first let's head to the billing department. They can't see them coming. Let's go. So Sid, to hear you tell it, everybody was crazy about her piece. They love the stuff. And then around the 70s, that started to take a turn. Well, I didn't say everybody was crazy about it.

It just wasn't. It was kind of one of those things like a lot of people got cold sores and people, a lot of people were probably getting, you know, sores on their genitals and they just weren't, I mean, whatever, we weren't talking about. We weren't making a federal case at it. Right. People weren't seeking a lot of treatment for it

is the truth. In the 70s though, a few different things happen that changed that. First, the first big deal drug to treat herpes was released. The first one that didn't have a lot of horrible side effects and was targeted at herpes at HSV. It was released by Burrows Welcome Company, which I think is now Blackstone Smith Klein, I believe, but Zoverax or a cyclovier, as you probably have heard it now. Zoverax. I'm here to cure it, you're hurting her face.

That's what it hurts her face. I don't think they, I don't think the commercial is like that, but I wish it was. Is it good? It was a good commercial. But it was originally like the idea because we had antibiotics, right? Like this is like by this time in history, we already have penicillin and all of the antibiotics that came thereafter. Well, quite a few of them by this point.

And we knew we could treat and cure bacterial infections. The next big landmark was, can we treat and cure viral infections the way we do bacterial? Viruses are harder, which is why, as you know, we don't have a lot of antivirals, right? I mean, think about it. When you come in and we say, you got a virus, we don't give you anything for it because we don't have anything that will help with that. And most of the time they're self-limited and it's not a big deal anyway. Well, there are, as I mentioned, life-threatening manifestations of the herpes virus in certain patients under certain conditions. And so we did need drugs to treat that.

But the idea as they introduced a cyclovier among their marketing team was that that's not enough because those life threatening infections are not very common. And while that certainly is a good use for our drug, we want to sell it to more people. We've put in all this time and effort and research and development to make this drug and we want to make a ton of money off of it. But most people just don't care enough about herpes to bother to treat it and certainly not to pay for a brand new antiviral medication,

right? And this is supported by the fact that as late as 1975, there was a study done, psychological morbidity and a clinic for sexually transmitted disease. So this is, by the fact that as late as 1975, there was a study done, psychological morbidity and a clinic for sexually transmitted disease. So this is, I kind of mentioned earlier that from like a purely physical, like cellular destruction standpoint, most herpes, not that big deal. But from a psychological standpoint, now we would say it's a huge deal for a lot of patients. Well, as of 1975, when they did a study on the more the specific psychological effects of getting an STI,

they don't even mention herpes. So it's like nobody cares. They didn't, it wasn't even included in the study because the idea that people would be suffering a psychological, you know, some sort of illness from a herpes infection was just unheard of. Nobody would care. Why would we?

So they needed a strategy, strategy. How do we get people to care about herpes? Mm. So they launched a disease awareness campaign. Ah, you're, ah, no. I should have seen this coming. They were emphasizing the importance of treating genital herpes specifically. so they didn't focus on cold sores because

i mean for one you can see that a lot of people have them so it was hard to stigmatize cold sores right even if a lot of people have genital herpes you're not seeing that on the street on the right, hard to make that a secret shame yes, You're not seeing that on the street on a regular basis. It's hard to make that a secret shame. Yes. They started focusing on the idea. First of all, they started using terminology like incurable. This is incurable.

You're going to get herpes having sex and it's never going to be cured. Now, when I say that, You'll carry around your entire life. It's never going to be cured. And that like now when I say that. You'll carry around your entire life. And that was a radical idea to introduce into the public at the time, because people really didn't feel that way about herpes. And so all of a sudden they painted

general herpes as a huge deal that you had to manage because not only were you gonna have it forever, you're gonna give it to to some day, your poor, blushing bride, you're going to give her herpes. And how bad will you feel? And so they really, they started to create this idea that herpes was something that had to be treated, had to be managed. You had to go see a doctor for instantly and you had to deal with this disease burden the rest of your life.

So they started organizing special teaching for doctors. I don't know if there was food, I don't know if there were golfing outings, I don't know if there were free box seats to sporting events, but my experience in the medical community leads me to believe there probably was. There were at the very least nice cups and pens, right? So they started organizing all these teaching sessions for doctors. They organized support groups. This was, I mean, at that, why would there have been a support group? For people with herpes? Yes, support groups for people with herpes so they could get to her and they started using where it's like sufferers and victims

around this same time and this wasn't the doing of the pharmaceutical company. This was just the atmosphere in the US in general conservatives began to use HSV as an example of the negative consequences of the sexual revolution. So listen, I know, I know all you hippies think you're having such a good time with your free love and your sex, but guess what? Now y'all got herpes and it's terrible. So in July of 1980, Time Magazine published a cover article titled Herpes, The New Sexual Leprosy. And they talked about things like there was one case where a man contracted Herpes after

he, quote, succumbed to the temptation of a local lady while he was abroad in Asia. They ran another cover story in 1982, calling Herpes the new Scarlet letter. And they talked about herpes as altering sexual rights in America and changing courtship patterns and it is a numbing blow to the one night stand. This is the way they talked about completely. Yeah, I mean, this is, I would say I'm not a journalist. I would say this is biased journalism. Yeah. say, I'm not a journalist, I would say this is biased journalism. Yeah, I mean, it obviously is, well, it's not biased journalism. I think that there's a, there is a real vulnerability.

I used to cover health from time to time because we didn't have like a health reporter at one of the newspapers who worked at and there's real vulnerability in the press. When you have a press that, and this is why it's so important to support your local press. When you don't have people who are well educated about this sort of thing, then people will buy whatever line you feed them. If you're a doctor and you come to a reporter and say, hey, this is a health thing that I know about and you don't, pretty, you know, obviously you should be vetting that stuff, but you know, it's easy to get roped in by something like that. I see that stuff all the time.

I see their reports where doctors are being quoted, and I know because I believe in science and evidence-based medicine that what they're saying is totally off the charts from what the majority of medical professionals believe, but they're at doctors that they're getting quoted. But this article painted herpes as the scourge of, basically people that you didn't wanna be,

people who cheated on their partners, people who were swingers. Swingers. That it was something that you could use to scare your husbands into faithfulness. So women lecture your husbands about herpes. They'll bring home herpes to you. So they don't bring home herpes to you. And then like a scare tactic.

And ladies, if you get herpes, your husbands will leave you. Your first outbreak, your husbands are gonna leave you. So don't have sex. So, they basically were using this as a way to say, listen, all that sex was fun and stuff, but we're done. It's the 80s. No more sex. Listen, there are other very good reasons why we should be telling you this, and we're going to find out about them here in like a few years. This is correct information. We're giving you not for the reasons we're telling you. Listen, I don't think no more sex is correct information. I think use proper protection is correct

information. Okay, fair. Yes. Fine. Are you? I didn't I didn't know you were an abstinence only fan. I'm not abstinence only fan. I'm just saying that like, there are repercussions of like, unprotected sex that were not being dealt with at this time period. No. Okay, herpes is not the right reason to deal with it, but I'm not saying it was like the worst advice to like use protection. I think, I think that, well, I think we're,

the problem is that it's wrapped into this was not doctors and medical professionals advocating for safe sex so that you could you know reduce the spread of sexually transmitted infections and prevent an unwanted pregnancy and all that. It was people who believed sex was bad, morally bad, lecturing America on their bad sex that they're having. That I think that's my problem. It's not a moral thing, the medical thing. Either way, in 1983, there was a made for TV movie called Intimate Agony about Herpes. Intimate Agony.

There were articles published in readers digest, not just time, and US news, and they called, again, they talked about this awful herpes wave that was sweeping the country, and it was the repercussions of our promiscuity. We were reaping the benefits of our sexual harvest with herpes. And the result of all this, which by the way, there's a name for this, disease mongrain. Oh. That's what this is called. And it is largely believed that the reason we have a stigma against herpes today is because

of the disease mongrain that you can somewhat lay at the foot of the pharmaceutical companies. They had to find a market for their drug, but also, I mean, prominent figures in the country in large, yeah, to make this stigma attach the diagnosis. And then as a result, patients began to seek treatment. You know, though, as I mentioned, and I've been very careful to differentiate, while the physical effects of herpes, foremost, patients, are fairly benign.

I like a lot of people are carriers and don't even know they have it. So they're physical effects are zero. The psychological effects of herpes for most patients are fairly benign. A lot of people are carriers and don't even know they have it, so they're physical effects are zero. The psychological effects of getting this diagnosis now can be a lot more devastating. There was a study in the New England Journal that said the psychological effects are far more severe than the physical consequences for many patients. And shock, anger, guilt, low self-esteem, fear of transmitting the infection and impaired sexual function can follow.

You can lead to social withdrawal and isolation, and especially in young people because they're given this diagnosis and then told that it is incurable. So you have this the rest of your life and you have to tell every sexual partner and they're not going to like you because you have herpes now. Which I should be clear, you should always disclose your sexual history to a potential partner before engaging sexual intercourse or any other sexual behavior, but not so that they'll know what a dirty person you are. Right. So that you can both enter into an honest, open sexual relationship.

By 2007, Herpes was ranked the second most stigmatized STI after HIV. It is at part, by the way, this is a common question. Why isn't it part of a standard screen for sexually transmitted infections? Because a lot of people believe advocates believe that if we started screening everybody for herpes when we screen them for things like gonorrhea or chlamydia or syphilis or HIV or hepatitis that we could reduce the stigma because then we would see that it's estimated maybe as many as 90% of adults have HSV. And it's weird if you don't have it. Right, so if we knew that everybody had it, then there wouldn't be a stigma and so problem solved.

The problem is, there's several. One is very practical. It's expensive. It's an expensive test to run. And so to make it part of a routine screen for sexually transmitted infections would make those screens incredibly expensive. And the nice thing is there are a lot of places you can go and get those screens for free.

And I don't, I think most of us would agree. We don't want that to stop. We want you to be able to get screened for free. Yeah. So that's one problem is the test is so expensive. Another problem is that herpes, as I mentioned, from a lot of doctors' perspective, is not the biggest deal in the world. And so it's hard to justify adding this incredibly expensive screen and then giving people this

information that might be incredibly psychologically upsetting to them if they're, I mean, they might never have another sore. You might tell somebody you have the Herpes virus and they never the rest of their life have any physical manifestation about it. So there's that question. Now, of course, they can transmit it possibly, not everybody. And I say not everybody because sometimes

it's just hard to detect the Herpes virus. So the test may be wrong. So we might tell you you don't have it and we're wrong. And again, it's kind of a moot point. Why test for it when we can just assume, are you an adult? Yeah, you probably have it. Don't worry about it.

Pass the cranberry. So even if you have a positive result, what will we do about it? Nothing. For a lot of people, we wouldn't. Now we do have ways to treat herpes. As I mentioned, there's either suppressive therapy, which is you take medicine every single

day to try to prevent ever getting any source, or you can take it just when, you know, source show up. So if you get a cold sore, if you get some general lesions, you can take some medication, and it'll help them go a faster and reduce the pain and everything. But the stigma is as bad as ever, maybe even getting worse some studies have shown over time. So this Thanksgiving, what do we need people to do? We need you to reduce the stigma. Go to your family.

Tell them they all probably have herpes. And now it's it. I have an announcement to make. Debra and I are very much in love. And also everyone in this room has herpes. That's fine. And it's fine with me. I have it too.

It's fine. Well, I think that if we're going to, we've talked a lot about both sides. I think there's been interesting, Justin, because you have introduced a lot of the other side of the sexual revolution to this conversation. And I think that it's important that it's from both sides. If we're going to take good care of ourselves and each other, we have to be open and honest.

And the best way to encourage us to be open and honest is to destigmatize the things we're being open and honest about so that there's no shame. It's just an infection. It's not a judgment on your moral character. Now that does not, that is not my way of saying. So like, why do you care so much? What's the big deal? Obviously, you care because we do live in a society that shames people for getting sexually transmitted infections. And that's wrong. And it should stop. But it doesn't take away the fact that this is a big deal for people who are struggling with like that knowledge, but it shouldn't

be. Make sure when you tweet this episode, make sure you include, you know what, just include, hi, my name is whatever, I probably have herpes, and you should check out the new episode of Sobba. And you just link to it. Most adults have, I'll start herpes, my name's Justin McGrillan. I probably have herpes, statistically speaking.

Statistically, I think HSV one is more common than HSV to I made a proclamation. My name is Sydney McRoy and I probably have her piece statistically speaking. That's good. There's a lot of couching of it, but I celebrate that. Folks, we hope you have a great Thanksgiving holiday armed with this mission to destigmatize her piece. We have certainly enjoyed. I want to say that we're thankful for you. We're also thankful for everybody who has picked up our book. It's a sol-bones, the sol-bones book is what it's called. And you can find that at fine retailers everywhere.

You know, Christmas is just around the corner folks and it makes just a darn great gift this book of ours. And you know, it's not just a physical book. It's also, it's also audiobooks. Thank you, Sincere. And that is available right now for you to go grab on Audible, former sponsor of ours, or anywhere that you-

For podcasts. Probably just Audible. The podcast has become a book, has become an audio book. The snake is eaten itself. Yes. Please check our book. And don't eat Romaine lettuce. Don't eat Romaine lettuce, apparently.

Yeah. I feel like I should say that since I'm a physician. Yeah, don't eat Romaine lettuce. The CDC has warned you. Do not eat any Romaine lettuce. So if anybody tries to serve you that. And this is the second time, right? Yes. So you feel agree? You feel agree? That probably wraps it up for Romain lettuce. So if anybody tries to serve you that. This is the second time, right? Yes. So we all agree, we all agree. That probably wraps it up for Romain lettuce. Nobody is so stoked

about Roma that they're like, I love Romain lettuce. Okay, there's one person that stoked about Romain lettuce. Folks, I'm so bummed, but don't eat it. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back with you next week. Maybe a little bit delayed who's going to be on the road. We'll figure it out. We'll figure something. Yeah. But until that time, my name is Justin McRoy.

I'm Sydney McRoy. As always, don't drill a hole in your head. Alright! Maximumfund.org Comedy and Culture Artistone Listener Supported