Sawbones: A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine - Sawbones: The Incredible Dr. James Barry

Episode Date: March 24, 2017

Were you aware that history's coolest doctor was a guy named James Barry who began their life as a woman? Sit down. For this super-sized #MaxFunDrive episode, we've got the whole story. Music: "Medicines" by The Taxpayers

Saubones is a show about medical history, and nothing the hosts say should be taken as medical advice or opinion. It's for fun. Can't you just have fun for an hour and not try to diagnose your mystery boil? We think you've earned it. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy a moment of distraction from that weird growth. You're worth it. that weird growth. You're worth it. Alright, time is about to books. One, two, one, two, three, four. Hello everybody and welcome to Saul Bones, a Maryland tour of Miscite Admedicine, I'm your co-host Justin McAroy.

And I'm Sydney McAroy. I really appreciated that you like gesture to yourself. Yeah, I just gave myself a big Peter Pan thumb there. I'm. This guy, he's Justin McAroy. It's Max Fun Drive. Week. That's why we're feeling so silly. We're feeling so giddy because people are helping us

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And because this is Max Fun Drive Week, we wanted to do a topic that a lot of people have asked us to do and we haven't gotten around to yet. And then we're doing it now. Now, let's go. That's right. We want to talk about James Barry, Dr. James Barry. Now I briefly mentioned Dr. James Berry before. Do you remember the episode Justine Go?

Well said, it was the one. Right. I need you to edit in. I need you to edit in. Make a click noise. That's me reminding myself right there to edit in me giving a great answer to that question. That's right. Justine, see sections. I'm so glad you remembered that that question. That's right, Justin. See sections.

I'm so glad you remembered that that was the episode that we talked about, James. But very briefly, very briefly. And that's a crime, because there's a lot more to say. There's a lot more to this story. And a lot of our listeners have been asking to hear that. Thank you, Andrew, and Oliver, and Megan, and Sarah, and Aaron, and JC for recommending this topic, as

well as whatever Facebook video has been showing up endlessly on my feed recently about James Barry. I don't know, just to like, like Sydney, you've been needing to do this. It's in everybody's mind now. You should do it. So Margaret Ann Bulkley was born. Was born in Quark. That's in Ireland. We went there for honeymoon, Ted, remember?

We did go there for honeymoon. It was amazing. It was lovely. It was a lovely, lovely time. Lovely country over there. Lovely place. So Margaret was born in Quark around 1789. Although it was around 1789, probably in that time.

This was the time when your birth year was just like about that, you know. We didn't know what day the week was, was the time. The birth is about 1789. Margaret's parents were Mary Ann and Jeremiah and Mary Ann, Margaret's mom, was the sister of James Berry who was an Irish artist and a professor at London's Royal Academy of Summary Noun.

So a famous artist was her uncle. Jeremiah was a merchant, but his career and his position suffered in part due to anti-catholic discrimination. And then in part just I think he was maybe a bit of a shady character. It's what I've gleaned from a lot of the things that I've read. Okay, so, um, the uh, uh, uh, carnivore house or? Yeah. Okay. And, um, I, I, I don't know what all he did, but one more and other he ended up in jail. Mm-hmm.

And then kind of vanishes from the story. I know that you're hypersensitive to it as a Catholic, but you know, if someone does crimes and shady things and then goes to jail, that's not really what anti-Catholic discrimination means, right? I think that, I think in part he had difficulties due to anti-catholic discrimination. Okay, fine, but also I think as a Protestant Justin, you should stay out of this conversation. Either way, he ended up out of the picture in jail and then kind of leaving the family behind Wish which left Marianne his wife and their two children John and Margaret More or less fed for themselves. They really didn't have means to support themselves John actually like his older Ins up like having a family and a job on his own

But he really does isn't in a position to support Margaret and his mom and on top of this There's a third child, Juliana, who is born at some point in this. It seems a touch irresponsible given what you've told me so far. Well, Justin, I would withhold all judgments on that issue until we get into the story a little bit more. Deal. Because there is definitely more to Juliana Okay, so from this dilemma came a scheme

It's often does Margaret was initially in school to be a governess. She was she was clever. She was bright She was working hard her her mother Mary Ann had her in school But being a governess did not necessarily come with a lot of money. And it was also felt that Margaret was displaying talents and intellect that would leave her capable of many other careers. In particular, careers that maybe weren't open to Margaret because she was a woman. So at this point in history, this was kind of the best thing to do with her clever mind,

whereas maybe there were other options if her brother had wanted to do them. So some of her uncle, James Barry's liberal friends, because at this point, actually, during this period of her life, her uncle actually passes away. But there's still very close these friends that were kind of this like, I always imagine that like they're this cool group of like the hangout and cafes and they smoke cigarettes

which is bad and you shouldn't smoke, smoking hurts you, but like in a cool way. Sure, sure, sure. You know what I mean? Yeah, they're wearing this all in cool. Everybody's, everybody's very cool. Like a key picture in like, I don't know. Like the breakfast club? No, not like the breakfast club.

Like everybody from Mulan Rouge. Lay breakfast club. Ha ha. I pictured they were very cool and they were very liberal and they think, you know what? We should get this clever Margaret into medical school. Okay. Because I don't know that Margaret really desired get this clever Margaret into medical school. Okay.

Because I don't know that Margaret really desired to be a doctor. As much as Margaret actually wrote there, we have letters that say, if I wasn't a girl, I would be a soldier. So there was definitely this desire to be a soldier. I don't know if a doctor in the army was her goal, but one way or another, they hatched a plan to try to get a medical school by pretending she was a man. Okay. So the plan was that she would go to medical school in Edinburgh.

And then after she had attained her medical degree, initially they thought that she would go to Venezuela with General Francisco de Miranda, who was a friend of her uncles and part of this group, after training, and women were actually allowed to practice medicine in Venezuela at the time. So that was the kind of the original thought process. That's wrong with that. It's a pretty big amount of time to get her training

and then. And then go to Venezuela, live as Margaret, the doctor. That was the original plan. However, this plan would eventually fail because General Miranda was in jail by the time she finished her studies and died sooner after. That's rough. That's rough.

And did that part of the plan. So she was tutored and prepped and on November 30th, 1809, Margaret and her mother went to set sail for Edinburgh. However, the two who boarded the ship were Maryam, the mother and James Barry. This is the point in the story where Margaret assumes the dress and the name and the presentation of James Barry. Now, I think that this is a good moment to take kind of a side note. Right. We've talked about this a little bit because we want to figure out how to sort of handle it.

This part of what still remains kind of a mystery to this day about Dr. James Barry is did Margaret Bulkley was Margaret Bulkley a transgender man who presented as James Barry because that was the gender with which Dr. Barry identified as a man. Or was Margaret Balkley, which she identifies as a woman who presented as James Barry simply because of the opportunities that that afforded Margaret at that point in history because because a woman would not have been allowed to good medical school. So was this an elaborate scheme or was this Margaret presenting herself as the gender that he truly identified as? I don't know. I don't know the answer. And there are many biographies about James Barry

and you can read and research and theorize we have letters that we can peruse of Dr. Barry's to try to find an answer to this and accounts from the time period from various people who were in the doctor's life. But nobody really knows for sure. And Dr. Barry isn't here for me to ask the question, which is what I would do if I weren't sure

of this answer, I would ask the question. If you're someone who would love to count James Berry as sort of a pioneer in the, as someone who was like a very early transgender person involved in medicine, I completely understand the impulse. Would have been the first, if that is the case. Yeah, the first. And that may very well be the case,

but it may very well not be the case. And we don't want to be in the position of misidentifying anybody. Okay, and that's the case, that's the fact. Either way you cut it, James Berry was a revolutionary. Because whether this was, in fact, this is in fact the this is, in fact, the story

of the first transgender man to complete medical training in practice medicine, Dr. Barry was the first, or the story of the first woman to complete medical training in, you know, the UK and practice medicine, then Dr. Barry was first. So either way, Dr. Barry is a revolutionary and amazing character, certainly worthy of many books in much discussion and much, much higher-minded discussion than I would dare to say I am capable of on solbones. Right. And more than worthy of a solbones episode is what I'm saying. And because this is such a sensitive issue, there's a temptation to say, well, we just won't, we just won't fool with that one

because we don't wanna do wrong by anybody, but Sidney Felton and I think that it's an important story and it's one that we shouldn't ignore just because it's complex. So that is our, so here's how we're going to handle the question of identifying James Barry's gender. At this point, in the story, Dr. James Barry presented as a man, and by all accounts was taken as a man by everyone who met him and interacted with him and never at least openly contradicted that statement. So the best that I can,

from what I have read and what I understand and what I think is the right thing to do, I am referring to Dr. James Berry at this point as a man, because that is the way that the doctor presented. I'm kind of a little spoiler for the remainder of his life, by the way. Wow. Okay. Yeah. So, you don't know what happens next. Yes. Arriving at the university, Dr. Barry, well, James is not Dr. Barry yet.

He's got to finish. Got to actually go to the university first. He was accepted into the medical class and he began taking courses in 1809. Now, obviously, James looked smaller and had a higher voice than a lot of his other classmates and no hair on his chin. And so this actually led not to questions of gender, but to questions of age, which James actually, he would tell people, well, that's where the, some of the confusion about what year was James Barry Bourne comes from is that he lied about his age

to account for the fact that he looked, I mean, you would have expected it. So how old would he have been? Let me run the math. 18, I mean, he would have been 20, right? Yeah, but he looked like many people assumed he was a pre-pubescent boy. He was actually, he's 20.

So he told people that he was like 15 or 16. Oh, okay. That makes sense. That's all right. He lied about, okay. Yeah. So because they would have expected if he were a 20 year old man that he would be taller and his voice would be deeper.

It sounded like his voice hadn't changed. It sounded like, so he just have any hair on his chin. He just like decided to pretend he was a doogie house. Exactly. He just pretended he was younger. But that actually caused problems because they thought he was lying and that he was even younger than that. They thought maybe he was 12.

Okay. And they didn't want to let a 12 year old finish medical school. So there was a lot of arguing and it took more influential friends to help get him to actually sit for his finals, which of course he passed. There's an easy test. Just ask him who PewDiePie is. If he's able to answer instantly, then that needs 12 or under. But he did. He did pass his test and he earned an MD in 1812.

He continued his training in London at St. Thomas's hospital. He passed the exam for the Royal College of Surgeons in 1813 and he joined the British Army as a hospital assistant soon thereafter. From there, because he joined the military at this point, his course kind of follows wherever he was assigned next. So first he was assigned a Chelsea and then Plymouth and then soon thereafter to Cape Town, South Africa. That's where we start to get some of the kind of unique and exciting things that Dr.

Barry did in his career. So first of all, he had a pretty important job. He was a medical inspector for the colony, and he was also in Cape Town, and he was also assigned to work personally for the Governor- Lord Charles Henry Somerset. He even was credited with saving Lord Somerset's daughter's life. So he spent 10 years working there and while he was there, he actually did some things that at this point in history would have been pretty revolutionary for a doctor to do, such as improved sanitation. He believed in things like clean water, being an important factor in general health and

well-being. He was not afraid to challenge incorrect medical views held among the community, especially things like patent medicines, people who were selling fake tonics that had, you know, opium or, um, but alcohol in them, things that were dangerous that we know were, were everywhere and rampant at this point in history. Right, right. He was not, he was with him. Yeah, he was not afraid to be out against them, which, which was very strange at this time in history. Uh, he advised things like a healthy diet and exercise, which again, I know that's like progressive. This is progressive.

I mean, he was and he himself believed in healthy diet. He actually was a vegetarian. And he was, he was known to be very loud and outspoken about all these views. And this is one of the things you see repeated in accounts of dr. Barry is that he was not afraid to challenge people and to get in very heated arguments and to speak up when he thought people were doing something wrong. He was known to be kind of loudmouth and kind of brash. I love that. I love the cockiness of like somebody who is hiding something but also is not going to shut their mouth. But if they're right, they're going to say it. Yeah, right.

It's not going to play close to the best. So he pray. Now, this is the reason that we've spoken about them on the show before. He performed the first successful C section in Africa by a British physician on a kitchen table. That's where he performed this procedure on a kitchen table. And successful meaning both mom and the son of a rock survived.

Wow. And a little cool side note, the child that he delivered was named after him, by the way. Wow. And later became Prime Minister of South Africa from 1924 to 1939. Okay. Wow, really? BTW. Yeah.

She watching. Yeah. Okay, wow really BTW. Yeah, she watching. Yeah He was now one thing that did plague his time in Cape Town is that he was rumored to have had a very close relationship with Lord Somerset and this is where we start to leave the realm of stated historical fact into supposition and trying to draw conclusions based on, you know, letters and you're saying that kind of thing. Right. The pair were very close. He was, he was Lord Somerset's personal physician. As I mentioned, even had, I think he stayed there frequently as well. And the two were actually accused of having a sexual relationship. There was like a

note posted somewhere on a bridge by someone like anonymously. I saw these two having sex, and which at the time would have been. Sidney, we cannot start entering bridge graffiti into evidence for solvents. Okay, I know we're not professional researchers, but come on. Someone wrote on a bridge that this was the case, so perhaps. Well, it led to charges of libel. I mean, it was a big deal because because at the time the two being accused of having a sexual relationship would have been a big deal.

Okay. You know, Lord lord and officer. They were trying to treat when everybody just didn't say whatever came in. They didn't give a moment. They were acquitted of this. People didn't buy it. They didn't think that they were actually having a sexual relationship. I have no idea if they did or not.

They were very close. Do you wear an era of medicine or specialization is big? Do you miss the you pine for for living in this era where doctors kind of like were much more general purpose adventures apparently? You know, I think I did when I was like probably a medical student when I was younger, I thought that the idea of um I would call those those kinds of physicians like cow people, cowboys, cowgirls, cowwomen, whatever you want to call them.

Nowadays people who are able to go work in like rural settings and do a lot, a lot more, whereas now, you know, I work in a big academic center where there are a lot of specialists. So I don't know, I'm a little more sheltered and the idea of taking on all that stuff would make me anxious, I think. When I was younger, I would have thought, I would have on all that stuff would make me anxious, I think. When I was younger, I would have thought I would have answered you absolutely, I wish I could do that. But now I'm kind of glad that I have people who really know what they're doing all the

time. All right, I didn't mean to derail you. Sorry. So, in addition, he got into an argument while he was in Cape Town that ended in a duel with a fellow soldier. This is an exciting life. It was a very exciting. He got in the duel, the other officer,

the other soldier shot him in the thigh, but he hit the other guy in the head, except for it was kind of in like the top like in his cap. So it didn't actually strike his head, it hit him in the cap. And so- The William Till action. Yeah, so both of them were fine.

I mean, while he got shot in the thigh. He by the way, not fine. It's a pretty loose interpretation of fine. Well, he cared for himself. Oh, I don't know. He took care of it by himself. I didn't know that. I'm all about.

Yeah, that's awesome. That you're into. So he took care of it by himself and the other guy survived. And that was kind of the end of that. In general, as I've kind of mentioned, he was often remembered as macho, brash, arrogant, tactless, despite the fact that people would always say, but he is really good doctor. And his patients tended to like him for the most part. There was the odd account of him yelling at patients, but for the most part, he was known to have a good bedside manner and to be excellent at his craft. Also, he was kind of eccentric.

He slept every night with a black poodle that he owned named Psych. Psych. Okay, sure. And everywhere he traveled, I told you he was a healthy guy. He took a goat with him for milk, because he thought goat milk was the healthiest,

so he had his own goat that he took everywhere so he could drink goat milk. I, I'm sorry. Also, as a side note, he did have a man servant, He had his own goat that he took everywhere so he could drink goat milk. Uh, I, I'm sorry. Also, as a side note, he did have a man servant, a personal servant that spent 50 years of his life with him. And I have no, I do not know if they, if this man was ever aware of the history of Jamesberry of his history. I don't know. I just think it's interesting. They spent 50 years together.

I got to know more. What have the next? Well, I'm going to tell you Justin. This is normal where we go to the billing department, but not this time, see it. No, this isn't billing department. No, this is Max Fun Drive every year. The fun department.

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I wanna hear more. I'm Desperate for more James Berry information. Like I said, Dr. Berry moved around a lot because of his career in the military And all the while he was improving conditions among among main largely troops. I mean he was in the military Sure everywhere he went especially sanitary conditions and health Related matters and also getting into trouble in St. Helena in 1836. He was arrested and court-martialed on charges of conduct, unbecoming of the character of an officer and a gentleman.

But it was found not guilty. So, no big deal. In 1840, he worked to improve conditions for British troops in the West Indies while almost dying of yellow fever. But yellow fever could not stop James Berry because in 1846 he was in Malta fighting cholera and also getting into kind of a big a big tip with local clergy because he sat in one of the clergymen's seats in church and didn't move. It was, I mean, it was really something like that. Like the, That's amazing.

He was new, he sat in the wrong seat and then wouldn't move. That's amazing. I mean, I keep waiting to make a joke but I can't because James Berry just rules. And he does a bunch of cool stuff. Like there's, he didn't really mess up medicine at all, it's kind of out of character for us.

This is, I thought about that, the fact that typically on our show, we talk about all the time so we got it wrong. And I felt like this was, especially we kind of like try to do something a little unique during Max Fondreve. This was an opportunity to celebrate kind of a biographical episode about a unique character in medicine with a kind of a cool House-like personality. I like to think about him like that like a little bit of house like yeah personality But really clever and obviously boy wait if house had had James Barry's backstory that show would have been infinitely more interesting

all that stuff and also infinitely more interesting. All that stuff. And also, there's one other thing. Yeah. Now, here's a weird interaction. He met Florence Nightingale in Crimea in the 1850s. And the two got in an argument. Oh, man.

Finally, Florence Nightingale, let's rock. There's actually, I think there's a play out there somewhere that somebody wrote imagining this, like just this interaction, like the day that they were like crossing the square. Well, actually I have a quote from directly from Florence Nightingale, the lady of the lamp herself about the

interaction. And what she said was, I never had such a blackboard rating in all my life. I, who have had more than any woman, then from this berry sitting on his horse, while I was crossing the hospital square with only my cap on in the sun, he kept me standing in the midst of quite a crowd of soldiers, Komissira, servants, camp followers, etc., etc., every one of whom behaved like a gentleman during the scolding I received while he behaved like a brute. And after he was dead, I was told that Berry was a woman.

I should say that Berry was the most hardened creature I ever met. So Flow was not a fan. I think I hear a twinkle in there. I detect a twinkle of, uh, of, uh, risk, maybe not respect fondness. I really had to do it as far as I could tell because I kept trying to find more details about this argument and it really had to do with as far as I could tell, because I kept trying to find more details about this argument, and it really had to do with her not wearing enough protection out in the sun. That was the best. She was only wearing her cap out in the sun. Where's my gals, your problem.

I don't know. Maybe he was just worried about sun exposure. Yeah, it's a bit horrible. It's a bit horrible. Yeah, that's a big problem. But on the bright side, while he was there, Barry also had the highest recovery rate of wounded soldiers in the whole war.

Unstoppable. Due war. Unstoppable. Due to... Unstoppable. Probably in part to a lot of these sanitation measures that he implemented and the way that he devised of helping wounds heal and caring for wounds as they were healing. In 1857, he ended up in Canada as Inspector General of... I mean, basically all the hospitals. Wow. It's like a big, important position.

And he worked to improve situations among all the troops and their families as well. And he also did a lot for people who weren't necessarily in the military among the local prison population. He worked to help improve their, again, their conditions, food, and clean water and things like that, and cleanliness in general. And also, with a lot of people who had leprosy, and you know, this

was a time where you would have had, like, leprosy colonies, like areas where they were designated for people who had leprosy to live. And he did a lot to improve their conditions as well. So, worked really hard, had a lot of power power and did a lot of good with it. And I think he would have kept going, but he had some health issues. I think a couple of bouts of bronchitis and just in general was not in the best of health. And so in 1864, he just couldn't keep going. He was forced to retire. And I don't know.

Four. Seven, seventy five. And that boy says number one. That sounds about right. Yeah. So he was forced to retire, just due to health conditions. And unfortunately, a year later, he died of dysentery in 1865. This, now, like I said, up to the day he died,

there was never any question. I mean, well, after he died, some people said they had questions. But up into this point, we don't have documented evidence that people knew anything other than the, what Dr. Jamesberry told everyone. But Dr. Barry specifically requested that he be buried in the clothes in which he died, and that there not be any sort of like autopsy or anything after he died. Probably to continue to conceal this part of his history.

However, Sophia Bishop, who was a maid, a char woman, a woman who just felt like that was wrong. You know, he was sick, he was probably not in the best, his body wasn't in the best condition. And they just felt like out of respect for this renowned officer and doctor, you shouldn't let him be buried in these clothes and when she died. And so she did what was the standard of the time and prepared his body for burial, removing his clothing in order to dress him probably in his uniform. To be very. However, when she laid out his body for burial, she discovered, in addition to the fact that, by the way, his hair was dyed red, I noticed that, that little side note here, you used to dye his hair red.

That's on really like that side note that he was a 75 year old man who was dying his hair. Um, that he had a vagina and breasts as well as what the char woman was certain were stretch marks on Dr. Barry's abdomen that would have been indicative of a history of childbirth. What? Do you remember the sister, Juliana, that appeared suddenly in the middle of all of the financial trouble. Are you sure?

Historically, it is believed, this is not just conjecture. It is pretty, I mean, it is almost certainly thought that Juliana was actually the daughter of Dr. Barry. Yeah, but from when from when Margaret Buckley would have been very young. And they asked she went to the doctor, the doctor who had been taking care of of Dr. Barry right before he died, his friend and doctor who had taken care of him many times when he had been ill, who never, according to him, suspected anything else. And she kind of attempted to blackmail him and said, look what I just found, look what I just figured out. She was also the one who brought the stretch marks to the attention and said, and he actually challenged her on that and said, how in the world could you

know from that, that this, you that, that this person ever gave birth. And she basically said, I've had nine kids, I think I know, it was kind of her argument. But she tried to blackmail him. And the doctor basically said, listen, his family has long since passed away, nobody's gonna believe you. You go say whatever you need to say,

but nobody's gonna listen to you. I don't care. She sounds like a creep to me. That's where I'm at. That's why I think about Slyphia Bishop. I think she was a great a creep. The doctor was pretty cool about it because after this, of course, some word began to spread and one of the military officials, one of the officers in the military, actually wrote

this doctor a letter and said, hey, I heard a rumor. Could this possibly be true? He wrote back and he was honest. The doctor wrote back and said, this is exactly what was said to me, this woman. Sophia Bishop, the char woman came to me. She said this, I observed these things. He kind of at at this point throws on this caveat that like because what the Charwoman said to him was, oh, well, you're a pretty doctor. So how many times did you examine this patient's chest? And you've never noticed this, basically. Okay. That one might be fair. Because it was documented that Dr. Barry had multiple bouts of bronchitis and pneumonia. I think things that you would have thought he would have.

Can I say that? Can I say though? If, I mean, Dr. Patient Confidentiality, like, I know that it wasn't a well-established idea at this time, but I could certainly see. Actually, it was. Yeah, well, I mean, you weren't on the episode where I explained

to my dad that it was. Oh, that's true. I'm an idiot about Dr. Patient Confy confidentiality. That's an old idea. But like, that's completely plausible to me. Like, I can completely see, especially two doctors, like, listen, we could take a seat. Or maybe not, or maybe not even mentioned, like known, but not even said, just, just a quiet knowledge. And the doctor actually in the letter back to the military official says, I thought personally that Dr. Barry was likely intersex. So he was not, he doesn't say,

he says basically like I didn't know what kind of genitalia Dr. Barry had, but I assumed from other aspects of his, like his stature and other physical characteristics that he was probably intersects. But basically he says, but it doesn't matter because either way, my job was to identify this as the body of the inspector general of the hospitals.

You know, basically of this super important, very impressive, talented and intelligent military officer, and that is exactly who this person is. So kind of puts it to rest and says it doesn't matter, which I think is a little, it's kind of cool for the time saying, like, let's just remember how amazing this person was and not get lost in, you know, what we perceive as this, as this, whatever. Anyway, there were people who spoke up at that point, because again, word spread rumors do. People who spoke up and said they knew it all along. Oh, sure you did. That said that they always suspected it.

They always thought something right. But whether or not anyone did, there were people who said I would have said something, but I don't know if you knew Dr. Barry, but he had quite a temper. And there was once a fellow officer who suggested that Dr. Barry may have looked like a woman. And James struck him with a horse whip. All right.

So that would discourage a lot of people from questioning that. And then others said, there's no way, there's no way. He was very flirtatious. He was known as a lady's man. That he liked women a lot. He was always flirting with him and talking with him and women loved him. And either way, everybody did agree

he was very good dancer. I don't know what that's evidence for. Either way, they did discover, again, as they were kind of, at this point, trying to look for other clues, they did discover that there was inside the lid of his trunk, there was a collage that he created of women's fashions. So I don't know, some historians have looked at that as like a sign that maybe Dr. Barry wished

that he could present as a woman still, but couldn't, I don't know or maybe just wished he could wear a dress. It doesn't even necessarily mean it, maybe just like the dresses, who knows. But like that's been noted as like, what is this mean? Who knows? I mean, you know, you look for clues after somebody's gone. We all do things and I would hate for anybody to read too much into some of the, some of the things I do in my classes.

And to like maybe my internet search history or anything. Yeah. The sky has a Tatino sweatsuit and a wizard tat. Like, I don't know what to make of this cat. Why does she have an amethyst wig in her closet? In addition, just some other, just some other notes that were brought to light afterwards, he always did where stacked heels with three inch insoles to try to make a look taller.

Okay. And one thing that was discovered later is that part of his, the reason I mentioned that he had a man servant is that part of his man servants job was every morning to lay out six thin towels along with his clothes that Dr. Barry had learned to strategically place in certain places around his body to make his shoulders look broader to give him more of a masculine shoulder and not to cover his breasts than to reduce the curvature at his hips

and to give him more of a masculine shape. And he lived in some areas of the world where that would be much less than pleasant. Exactly. Every day he did this, every single day. The British Army decided, look, we don't know quite what to do with this, and this is before a time where anybody was ready to deal with any of this information.

So they basically just sealed up all of his records for a hundred years. Perfect. And said nobody can know anything about this for the next hundred years. Or we're not going to talk about it. Well, I'll be dead. Agreed, agreed, agreed.

Okay, great. From... I love that British stiff upper lip. Like, let's just not talk, steal the record from this. I'm curious, let's not talk about it. And it was like 140, actually. It was like 2008 when a lot of the letters

that actually solved this mystery because this room or went around for a long time, you got to understand for years and years, this story I just told you was, was as much folklore as it was true. Nobody knew if that was true. Well, we now know that everything I've just told you is true for sure. The facts are true. Margaret Balkley was James Barry. James Barry was Margaret Balkley. We know that these two people were the same. But again we

didn't know this until around 2008 when we found some letters from James Barry and others. There is a town named after him in South Africa, Barrydale. I like that Barrydale. And he's been like I said the subject of books and plays and biographies and debate and even Dickens wrote about Barry so fascinated by this figure in medicine. And that's the thing like Justin mentioned. I, I hesitated at first because I thought I don't know. I don't know if Dr. Barry were here and I were to ask, please help me, you know, understand your story. You know, were you a transgender man, and this is the story of your life? Or were you a woman who presented as a man simply so that you could pursue this career? Because she wrote as a little girl. If I were not a girl, I would be a soldier. So was that your story? I don't know.

I don't think it matters though. And the reason I think this is worthy of a sobbing episode is that obviously it does matter, but it doesn't matter in the sense of should we address this person and talk about their history and celebrate them as an amazing clever, cool, funny, somewhat hot-tempered figure in medical history, just because we're not sure of all the facts doesn't mean we shouldn't celebrate their life, so I didn't want to discourage that. Dr. Barry still saved the life of what a future prime minister of South Africa.

Amazing. You too can be an awesome person. Maybe not automatically as awesome as James Berry, but pretty good. If you donate to the maximum fund drive, um, maximum fund.org first-class donate is the place to do that. Wanted to alert you to a couple of other things that are, um, uh, uh, going on. The 28th is max fund day. There's going to be a bunch and it is pretty much all over. There is a roughly a cagillion of them.

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You keep us, we love you still, no matter what. Yeah. So that's going to do it for us this week. Maximum fund out of our first-nash donate, go do it. Oh, there's a big max fund extravaganza. Also, March 31st, it's going to close with the drive, kicks off at 7 p.m. PT, 10 p.m. ET, there's a big max fun extra against it also March 31st is gonna close with the drive kicks off at 7 p.m. PT Timbium ET maximum fundador maximum front and draw George

More information about that also. Thank you to the taxpayers for a few song medicines. Thank you See I got this time. All right. That's gonna do for us folks until next week. My name is Justin McRoy I'm Sydney Mac. And it's always don't. Joe a hole in your head. Alright! Maximumfund.org Comedy and Culture, Art and Stone Listen or Supported