Sawbones: A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine - Sawbones: The Weight of the Human Soul

Episode Date: July 3, 2020

An introspective moment on Sawbones this week as we meet the doctor who devoted his life to discovering the weight of the human soul.NOTE: This episode contains discussions of mortality, both human and animal.Music: "Medicines" by The Taxpayers

Sawbones is a show about medical history, and nothing the hosts say should be taken as medical advice or opinion. It's for fun. Can't you just have fun for an hour and not try to diagnose your mystery boil? We think you've earned it. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy a moment of distraction from that weird growth. You're worth it. that weird growth. You're worth it. Alright, time is about to books. One, two, one, two, three, four. We came across a pharmacy with a toy and that's busted out. We saw through the broken glass and had ourselves a look around.

Some medicines, some medicines that escalate my cop for the mouth. Hello and welcome to Sobbo. It's a marital tour of Miss Guyed Medicine. I'm your co-host Justin McAroy. And I'm Sydney McAroy. And I'm Justin McAroy. Still. Hey Justin. Yes.

I know that you meditate. Sometimes, do you still do that? Um, I have a hilarious habit of not meditating when things are going pretty well. And then all of a sudden my anxiety catches up with me in a terrible torrential downpour. And I think, why is this happening? How could this happen?

I'm just only not doing any of the things I'm supposed to do to control my anxiety. How am I not controlling my anxiety? So yeah, things have been okay lately. So I haven't been meditating. I have not learned for the past. But yeah, I'm meditating. Well, you kind of killed my intro there.

You should be. Oh, okay. But you meditate to, it helps like, give your brain a break. Yes, right. It's training your brain to give it rest. It's important for us to take care of our brains. Take care of our bodies, take care of our brains,

take care of ourselves, the stuff of ourselves. Oh, that's very relevant to this episode. But this particular show this week, I thought kind of an existential moment, a philosophical moment might be in order. I would encourage everybody to keep doing the hard work they're doing in all arenas right now. Keep protesting and calling your representatives and donating and reading and learning and also wearing your masks and washing your hands and staying at home as much as possible. All those things, all that hard work that we're all doing, it's important

that while we are doing that hard work, we take care of ourselves and nurture our brains and our bodies and our souls. And I thought to take a moment this week to use the show, to provide something to meditate upon, something to think about kind of a spiritual... Spiritual way of Oasis. Yeah, just, we will get back to more of the same relevant current content that we have been doing, but I thought my brain needed something like this. I read this story and it made me ponder things that I have not given myself space to think about lately and so I thought perhaps our audience may need them.

Well, what are we talking about? If you're exhausted and you think that the story of a man who tried to weigh the human soul may help bring you a little piece right now, then this is what I'd like to share. That's a somewhat troubling start. I was hoping for something more sort of pizza-related or something, but. You can eat pizza while you listen to this episode. I don't think it's gross. Man, I really always have to think about that before I take that.

Yeah, I heard it like mid, mid. why are you one of the children actually like hammering directly above us, do you think? Because we're letting my mother watch them right. Fair enough. Okay. Thank you to both Theodora and Jennifer who have suggested this topic years ago, I believe, when I checked to see if anybody had ever brought this up before, I think years ago. But it's a good one. If you haven't heard of Dr. Duncan McDougal and the time name is a good start.

It is a good name. And the time he tried to weigh the human soul. I should know, I thought this was important. You may already be aware of this, or have deduced it through, sure, lock-in reasoning. But we do not learn about the soul really in medical school. That is not like a class we take.

Right. We stick with the scientific and the specifically the medical. And while there are certainly many times where we talk about about the humanistic elements of medicine and the way that spirituality and various religious beliefs can play into decision making in some aspects of medicine, we never learn about the soul as any sort of, you know, scientific concept.

You probably already knew that. Yeah, that's what I was about to guess. It's that those matters are better left to people who study the spiritual, the metaphysical. So the reason I say this is that I find it particularly fascinating that Dr. Duncan McDougal was a physician who decided to take up this task. He just thought everything else had been sort of figured out. 1901, we got it pretty much figured out. Maybe he just wanted to branch out. I don't know. It's all medicine to move things. I don't know. I regret that we do not know more.

I don't have a lot of background to give you about this individual. We don't know a lot about what he was doing before he did this thing that is the thing he will be known for, I think, for all of time. But he was regarded well in his community. We know that. He seemed like he was respected as a physician there in a Havre Hill, Massachusetts in 1901 Whatever he had done previously it had not been Strange or bizarre enough to draw any sort of negative attention anyway

But he also was not there there are no Stories of great acts prior to this either so he was fine. I guess a regular guy. It's a regular guy. A regular doctor guy. You have to imagine he had some sort of spiritual religious inclination because he believed there was a soul to weigh. So he must have. He wasn't a skeptic. You would think. I mean, there was no evidence that he was trying to disprove the existence of the soul with these experiments. Certainly he was a think and I mean there is no evidence that he was trying to disprove the existence of the soul with these experiments Certainly he was a scientist and I think open to that idea as we'll get into but it seems that he was really in pursuit of capturing that that is the soul

in some scientific measurement and the way it is what he chose so He believed that the soul was some sort of matter. He allowed for the possibility that it wasn't, but he said, let's go ahead and kind of assume that it is. Then we should be able to weigh it. If it is matter, you would think yet. It has weight. However, there is a problem with Wayne, Justin, your soul, as you sit there

before me today. Gosh, I can think of L number of one is trapped in my incredible body. That's the main one. That's really. Mainly that. Yeah, that's the number one problem. How do you separate it? It's not like where you can weigh your cat by weighing yourself and then picking up your cat. Exactly. He had no way for us to like temporarily set aside our soul.

But he had a way of permanently doing it. Well, he didn't have a way. I do not want to put malicious intent upon this. He knew about, he heard tale of. Yes, mortality. Yeah. That eventually the soul should become separate from the body in this philosophy. And so this would be the moment to weigh the soul. He actually wrote about this

to use his own words, his thinking on it. We are therefore driven back upon the assumption that the soul substance so necessary to the conception of continuing personal identity, after the death of this material body must still be a form of gravitate matter, or perhaps a middle form of substance, neither gravitate matter, or either, not capable of being weighed, and yet not identical with either. Since, however, the substance considered in our hypothesis is linked organically with the body until death takes place, it appears to me more reasonable to think that it must be some form of gravitate matter and therefore capable of being detected at death by weighing a human being in the act of death. So there you go. Okay. Easy and tough.

He's got to find some people who are... Sat very sick. Unfortunately. Or have a hit put out on them possibly. Or are standing underneath like a particularly lightning attractive tree perhaps. These are people walking under construction sites in cartoons. Is this what you, is this immediately where you think, okay, wait, wait, let's back this up. So your first thought, if I need to find, if I need to find someone that I can weigh immediately before and after the moment of death,

is to find a hitman or woman. Let's record show. I said sick person first. So no, that was my second thought. Okay, your second thought was fine. Hey, man, it's nice because you can time it exactly right. I know exactly when they're gonna be stepping on this scale. And also it turned out they've been doing crimes.

I found out about it. They've been doing terrible crimes and they deserve this and we can all feel good for the retributive justice. Oh, so you're assuming that the hit is on someone who is bad? I don't have to assume. I'm the one putting out the hit. Me and Duncan are putting out the hit. You're putting out the hit is on someone who is bad. I don't have to assume. I'm the one putting out the hit. Me and Duncan are putting out the hit. You're putting out the hit?

Yeah, I said, but it's on a bad person that lives near a big scale. I don't know. I don't know. The two factors that we had is they have to be a terrible, wretched person who deserves retributive justice. And they also have to live next to a very large scale that they occasionally lock across.

There's some really complicated ethical ideas that you're putting forth. Yeah. The ethics of putting a scale that close to somebody get into some weird body politics. I'm not sure that, you know, somebody should be living that close to a scale and walking across it daily. I also would please ask, hit person, don't limit me. You're right to me. Why only men? That's true. I guess that's fair. All people can be murderers for hair. All people can be murderers for hair. Thank you, Justin. What a great day.

What a great progress has been made here today. So, no, he did not find a hit person to follow around. He did not look for... Oh, that's even better, actually. That's good. I was thinking, say so like a scale trap. No, he did not say like, hi, are you a hit person? Can I follow you around and just do some science measures before and after you do your work? He did not find any anvils

dangling precariously over the heads of any cartoon characters. He instead did look for sick people. He was also a doctor, so you got to think that's probably where his mind went. Yeah, I mean, it's a little bit predictable, but you can see how his mind would go there. So his basic idea was if I can find somebody who is near death, I will weigh them right before, right before. I mean, that's the only way this works. You have to weigh them right before and immediately after the moment of death. I mean, almost concurrent with the moment of death, right? Because as we'll get into, there are lots of other factors that could throw off the weight a very small amount. And he figured he was looking for a very small amount.

No, I'm not heavy. We would have noticed that. So this is a simple design, but you can see that all of Justin's wild ideas aside, it's still ethically pretty fraught because you have to find someone who is close to death and ask them, or they're loved ones whoever is making decisions for them. Is it cool with you to spend your last moments on this giant scale I've built while me and perhaps a team of scientists very closely observe your weight? Is that how you imagined this would wrap up?

And also you have to hold very still because I've got to keep these scales balanced. It's only 1901. Scales are only so good right now. We don't have digital ones. Right. Right. So he was able to eventually find a small number of participants, a very small number of participants

from local nursing homes. He looked first for tuberculosis diagnoses, one because at the time tuberculosis had no cure, so it was a fatal disease. It was a not quickly fatal, but eventually fatal disease. And it tended to be a wasting disease, so you would get very weak and thin and unable to move much. So he thought these would be people who would very naturally be still and peaceful and calm as they passed. And so it would be easier to weigh them, you know.

So he looked for tuberculosis. He found six people who, I guess, were willing to be included in the study and who he thought met the appropriate criteria. Four of them did have tuberculosis. Two of them didn't. One was in a diabetic coma and then the other one, we don't know the diagnosis. But one way or another, they were very close to dying. So he, and he took all of this very, very seriously. I mean, he was, he was quite earnest in his quest to prove that there was a soul by showing

that it had weight. He designed a special scale, like a bed scale, made for this explicit purpose and a very accurate, it could get a perfect weight within 5 grams. It was pretty good. Pretty good. For that time, especially. Yes. So, he designed this bed scale so you could just put the person on this bed and watch the

weight. And once you got the scales balanced, everything would work well. So he had everything and he recorded everything that happened. There were very, very detailed notes as it was happening. In the final results, it should be noted that he could not include two of the patients. So he was rigorous about this. He didn't just throw all the data in there. One of the patients passed away before any measurements, or before all the measurements could be taken. And so he didn't feel like that it was accurate enough data.

It's interesting if you read his accounts of why he excluded that patient from his results, he says that people who did not agree with the work he was doing, opponents of his ideas interfered with the process. Weird. I know. That's a story I would love to know more about. Makes sense though. I mean, this is going to be, religion is already very polarizing. And I mean, I can imagine both sides of that debate, not really feeling comfortable with

this sort of research. Well, not only that, but it's such a personal thing and it can differ so much between different religious beliefs and cultural traditions in terms of death and what should happen surrounding that. You can imagine that some people would not be comfortable with scales and scientists and notebooks and pens and measurements. It's also just another friggin thing to worry about. Is my soul too heavy? Is it too light?

Do I need a tone-up? My soul. You know what I mean? So this person was not included in the final data and the other one was not included because they only got the patient on the scale for Five minutes prior to them passing away and he felt Even though he got measurements he didn't feel like that there was a long enough time period to have really gotten everything set He didn't he felt like it was rushed data and he wasn't comfortable with it So what about the four good eggs? How did it go for them? Well, Justin, I want to tell you about the four that he did include in his results.

But first, let's go to the billing department. Let's go. The medicines, the medicines that ask you let my God before the mouth. So we got four patients that were counted in the soul weight research. Yes. So in the final paper that he would write up eventually, there are four all male patients with tuberculosis in the results. What he found as he did his examinations of each one, is that one of them lost weight quite suddenly

at the moment of passing, like an immediate loss of weight. As you would predict if you believed that the soul had matter and left the body immediately at the time of death. This patient seemed to follow that hypothesis. Two of them also lost weight right away, but then within a very short period of time, just a minute or so, lost even more. So what did that mean? I don't know. Well, he didn't either.

There was some talk, or there were multiple souls. There were two souls. And there were multiple souls. There could be beyond two souls. We don't know. We don't know. Is this where Satan's coming to play? Did you say Satan?

Satan. Satan. And that's what they're called? Yes, it's Satan's. Wouldn't that be weird if this guy was like, I did my soul weight research, and it turns out Scientology is real. I'm sorry, I'm sorry everybody.

Spoilers, Dr. McDougal does not have anything to do with Scientology, to my knowledge. Yeah, Scientology. Oh, Siri is approved. Oh, oh, no. She's listening because I was talking about Scientology. Tommy, it's Tommy C, turn it on my watch. Tommy crew. Tommy C turned on my watch to listen in. You got to be careful.

It doesn't matter if that's what the episode about it is about or not. You start talking about that. They'll find it. So anyway, two of them lost weight and then lost a little more. And then the last one did also lose weight immediately, but then put it back on right away. So not much to unless this all was like, I'm not ready. immediately, but then put it back on right away. So. Not much.

Unless this all was like, I'm not ready. So with those results, you're probably thinking, well, you can't conclude literally anything. No, yeah. Well, what he did conclude is that based on the patient who did lose weight and keep it off and not lose more. Stayed steady. Based on that, in terms of, I guess this is like pseudo medical history, we have deduced that the human soul weighs 21.3 grams.

So if you heard the concept, 21 grams, there's a movie. There's, it is a known, it is a popular culture, or three-fourths of an ounce, about 21.3 grams. There's a movie. There's it is a it is known as popular culture or three four seven ounce about 21.3 grams. It's about 20 paper clips is when I learned in in school. If you need if you need help conceiving of it. Five nickels I think somebody said. Sure I mean we can do this all day. One one one one hundredth of a Sony PlayStation that you've chipped off. I mean, we're good. So anyway, this is where, so he deduced that the human soul weighs 21 grams. Now, you're probably already thinking, well, this seems species.

I don't trust this. This was based on just the one person. Just one person. And he did do six. And he tossed two out of the data. Four were included. The other three. He didn't toss two out once they had passed their data. Yes, of your block of data, two subjects were removed. Their data was removed. This is just how you talk about in just in a study. No, no one was physically tossed.

The other three who he did include reportedly lost about that much at first anyway, which is not very precise. He'll seem pretty sketchy to me, Siddster. He did account for some things. I do want to address like, okay, it is kind of weird that exactly at the moment that this individual passed on from this mortal coil, he lost 21.3 grams. That is a very, okay, why? So, you probably are already yelling at the podcast some ideas or at least thinking some

ideas as to why this might happen. Please don't yelling at the podcast some ideas or at least thinking some ideas as to why this might happen. Please don't yell at the podcast. One thing that is addressed within the paper, which you can read, his paper that he'll get to that he eventually publishes, if a patient evacuates their boughs or bladder at the time of death, won't that change the weight? Still on the scale. Exactly. That is the way he controlled for that. Everything was kept on the scale.

So whether it was inside the body or out, it was all right there. So that should not change the weight. And this was all documented and measured when this occurred. So I'll kept track of. In addition, he had already figured out the amount of weight that can be lost due to what we call insensible losses

so that's just like sweat or Evaporation from your skin Just like we lose weight that way. Yeah, slowly as you may imagine very very slowly So he already knew that that was lost at about one sixtieth of an ounce per minute. So that insensible losses could not account for a sudden drop of 21 grams. Okay. Does that make sense? Yeah. Okay. Finally, there was this thought

maybe it's just the final exhalation. You looked at last breath ago, you don't take it all the way in and maybe there's... Maybe that's it. So in order to check this out, the researchers took turns getting up on the bed scale and breathing in and out very vigorously. It's a good day of science everyone. I know I wish I have to imagine I don't know I don't have any evidence that there were medical students involved in this but if there were medical students involved in this then they would probably be forced to like hey why don't you test that part out just hop on the bed and breathe really hard in and out and let us watch the scale and then right

all that down. Thank you. That's, I'm sorry, medical students. Yeah, you're probably on that assignment. Yeah, I don't think there were medical students involved. I think old Dr. McDougal hopped up on the bed and did this himself, but they watched the scale as they very aggressively breathed and saw that,

saw no change, that did not change the scales. So he included all that so that people wouldn't call into question his very scientific conclusion that the human soul weighs 21.3 grams. So like any good scientist, he knew that the only way to ensure that a result is meaningful is to reproduce it. Right. Science. So he decided he needed to do this again to try to prove this 21 gram theory.

But as I've already said, it was difficult to find human subjects for his experiment. And so he decided, you know what, it would probably be easier if we switched to an animal. So if I can find an animal that is near death and weigh them right before and right after, that might be an easier. It doesn't sound easier. No, it sounds bad. Yes. He did, he found that it was harder in terms of like keeping

the scales balanced and knowing the exact moment of passing. All of that became more fraught with animals. He did use dogs. And after 15 trials of this, he wrote that there was no difference in their weight before and after. The scales did not change at all. And so what you might think is that this invalidated his previous results and led him to believe that his scales

were perhaps not as perfect as he thought, but instead what it convinced him of firmly was the idea that dogs do not have souls. Oh man. I know. Oh no, our list of ships is not going to enjoy that They've this is a heel turn as far as they're concerned before you start emailing me. I am not saying dogs do not have No, all dogs go to heaven and have that work if they don't have souls Think about the he didn't even think about that all the way through if it even thought for a second about the movie that would be really several decades later All folks go to heaven which has some of the best cartoon pizza that you'll ever see yeah in a movie Of course you knew that if you listen to our other podcasts did ranks all cartoon pizzas

I'm just saying it's in there. Where it looks bad is Teenage should need is mine is yours. What's yours is mine? I sing this to the girls all the time. It looks bad on Teenage should Ninja Turtles. It's just looks like a sloppy ghost with red eyes. It's terrible. The pizza on that show is terrible. Anyway, sorry brief digression.

Go back to excess it. Read an RT. I'd love to. If you ever want to crave a hammer. I'd love to return to the existential crisis you're giving me if you want to go ahead and just keep trying. Sorry. So again, please do not send me angry emails. Dr. McDougal is the one who said dogs do not have souls. Not Dr. McAroy. I do not agree with any of this really.

But that is what he would put when he finally published his work six years later, April of 1907, in American medicine, in a paper titled Hypothesis Concerning Soul Substance Together with Experimental Evidence of the Existence of Such Substance. It's really a missed opportunity when you read these titles and you know that what is within this paper is the weight of the human soul. The fact that you did not publish a paper titled The Weight of the Human Soul. Like, when we publish this podcast, it would be called The Weight of the Human Soul. We're not going to bury the lead.

We're not going to call it hypothesis concerning soul substance together with experimental evidence of the existence of such substance. No, no one listens to that. No. Maybe he kind of knew like, I may not want all the intention right now. This is a little species. Hey, Justin, you're actually right. Really? There is evidence to believe he did not intend for this to be quite the media, I don't know, attention getter that it was. He writes in his paper that obviously this was incredibly preliminary. Obviously, there were many factors that still need to be

controlled for. This should be reproduced many times. You know, I am not in any way saying that this is a fact. I'm just sharing this data and I would encourage other people to continue these investigations because I think this is worthwhile. I think that this, there is something here that we could investigate and measure as scientists, and I think we should do it. However, the media and the scientific community went wild with this. It's very sexy. It's very... Sure. Yeah, of course you want to talk about it. The New York Times actually ran an article on it about the doctor who weighed the soul. The New York Times actually ran an article on it about the doctor who weighed the soul

and a lot of people Started it's funny because he talks about all the things that you can't conclude based on just his one results Like he's very clear in saying that like this is not the end all be all But people keep shouting at him All the things that he has already admitted. Yeah. I felt like sometimes when I'm in a meeting, I'll say something, but nobody will hear it until one of my male colleagues will also say it, and then everybody will go, oh, that's such a good idea.

I imagine that Dr. McDougall may have had some of those, may have understood the way that felt way back then in 1907, because he was saying, no, I wasn't saying that this is perfect. Yes, I know it's flawed. Yes, I know I didn't use this data and this other data was conflicting and I know that the dog thing really doesn't make any sense. I get all that. All I'm saying is I watched 15 dogs die and also six people and one of them didn't count and those humans always 21 grams. This is not, this is my thing.

That's all I'm saying. You draw your own conclusions. All I'll say is I watched 20 souls get snuffed out, except I think six, because I don't think dogs have souls, let me come back to that. I've gotten off track anyway The human soul is 21 grams so

He I Everyone's it's so specific here. I'm on the team of America freedom cost a bunch of five I feel kind of bad for him because he was very transparent with how he did everything I mean the reason I know so much about this is because he wrote it down. Yeah, you have to be transparent if you're talking if it's about this whole. So, and it was also, I think, you know, there have to have been doctors like me who are like, why are you even just don't? Just like, we don't have antibiotics yet. We can't fix literally anything right now. Why is this what you're spending your time on? So according to the New York Times article, he had said that he was going to investigate the soul further

with his research. He intended to try to take pictures of it using X-rays. We're going to be his next investigations, but I don't know if those experiments ever happened. There's no record of what he did with the rest of his his years on earth before where I Won't I won't talk about his passing because you hate when I do that on this show But I don't have much to say about it. Let's just say that

You're not gonna do that no longer with us as. As you may have guessed, this is 1907. So, other people throughout time have tried to repeat these experiments because this concept, if you think about how tiny this study was, how small the number of participants and the amount of data and how you get this system. Basically one, right? I mean, it's basically one. Really? I mean, the fact that

this has had these echoes I mean it just what it speaks to is is how in raptured by this idea so many are both within the scientific community where we brush up against all of these kinds of ideas especially in the medical community on a regular basis but then don't have anything to say about them that is evidence-based, because it's faith, it's belief, it's spiritualism, it's not science. But in the lay public who are fascinated with this idea, so there are other people who try to repeat it mainly with animals. One researcher concluded that mice, much like dogs, have no souls.

Okay, I'm just off the top of my head, Stuart Little, Ratatouille, an American tale. An American tale, five of those west. Stuart Little too. Okay, so that's five. Mickey. Mickey, thank you. Many Mortimer, jury out on Mortimer.

Don't know about that guy. Can be a little suspicious. I am surprised that in the debate of whether or not, Danger Mouse. Whether or not, Mighty Mouse, whether or not, mice have souls gadget, sorry. I am, I am surprised that in this debate, you come down on the side of mice do have souls

because you are terrified of mice. Oh, no, my belief that the life of mice is what makes them so scary to me. If I thought that they were soulless like bugs, then I would just get a broom and swap them out the window and watch them go creaning through, but they're a living being. That's what makes it so scary to me.

Why don't bugs have souls, honey? Why do you contend that bugs don't have souls? Because I didn't like bugs life very much. The other movies were more effective. I don't know what to tell you. What about B movie? B movie did not see Duel of the BVD. I'm going to check it out very soon.

I think it's just around the corner. Okay. So as recently as 2001, this experiment, as it were, was it repeated with sheep? And the researchers concluded that sheep actually gain weight at their time of death. Nice. So they take down someone else's soul and near soul that's trapped inside of sheep's corpse. I don't know what that means. That's the afterlife folks. Sorry. Do with that what you will.

But the 21 grams idea has far outlived the scientist who came up with it. Yeah. There's the movie I didn't see, but it was called that. There is music. There's manga, books books an episode of welcome to Night Vale references the 21 grams Can't believe you read another podcast even a wonderful podcast that everybody should check out I Don't think that there's anybody listens to our podcast who isn't aware of welcome to Night Vale Hey, I hate to tell you that on the the off chance, go listen Welcome to Night Vale, start

at the beginning, you'll think us. It's an amazing podcast. But I just think it's interesting that this idea captured the imagination of a doctor who has, I mean, we have no business investigating this. No, clearly not. I got to say science. Well, we're trained in. If I was going to give this one another title other than the way the humans all out, I'd be something like science bifred it. Because you guys bifred this one.

But it's a, and I should say, if I haven't made it clear, the medical community, the scientific community, have all rejected this entire idea. Yeah. Yeah. These further investigations that have been done, have not been done like necessarily by people actually. Go on.

I would say that this is a fringe science. Oh, I love that show. Perhaps pseudo science, not science as we know and love on this show. But I think it is an interesting thing to think about with Dr. McDougal's time on Earth, he did this very strange thing. And we will remember him forever for it. In closing, just way Casper, he's right there. Thanks so much for listening to our podcast, Saw Bones. We hope you've enjoyed yourself.

We sure have appreciated you being there. Hey, I'm just not for nothing, but me and my brothers and my dad wrote a book called the Adventure Zone, it's Pedals to the Metal, it's the third in a series. The third book comes out this well, it comes out, no I was gonna say today, but it comes out two-stage, live 14th. If you want a pre-order a copy, I would appreciate it, you can go to the adventurezonecomic.com and do that. And you can get the other ones there too. There's also like a three book box that if you want to just catch up again, all at once, but that's not coming to a little later this year. Anyway, that's my little plug for

a book. You're allowed to do that. I'll allow it. I promise you we will get back to important work again next week. But can you just say one to just take a quick fun diversion into mortality and existential crises. And then we'll get back to the hard stuff next time. Is this not? I sometimes in the urgency of the moment it helps to step back and look at the vastness of time and space in which we now exist. Do you remember I said I haven't been meditating lately because things are really good? Set aside a few minutes for me after the show is done, I can get this good ol' anxiety back under control. I would encourage you all, however you choose to take care of yourselves,

but to continue the good work that everyone is doing, again, protesting, speaking out, donating, calling your representatives, educating yourselves, being better at anti-racism, and please wear your masks if you're leaving the house as much as you can. Yeah, it's getting bad out there, guys. It really is. It's, I take it personally now because it's getting bad right here where we live. Now it's real. No, I mean, Sydney was all for it before but now. No, but please wear your mask. If you leave the house, you are not, they will not deprive you of oxygen.

I see that idea out there a lot. Don't make us do a whole episode about how it's fine. If so, surgeons would not be able to do surgery. They wear masks the whole time. They would pass out seconds into surgery and all surgeries would be failures forever. But they're not because masks will not deprive you of oxygen. They do not make you retain CO2. Please wear your masks, wash your hands, and stay home as much as you possibly can. Thank you so much for listening, and be sure to join us again next week for Sal bones. Until next time, my name is Justin McRoy. I'm Sydney McRoy. And as always, don't drill a hole in your head! Alright!

Maximumfun.org Comedy and Culture Artistone? Audience supported. I started listening to Ono Ross and Kerry shortly after I broke my arm and the doctor had told me I'd never walk again. I couldn't get my book started. I was lost, honestly. I knew it was time to make a change. There's something about Ono Ross and Kerry that you just can't get anywhere else.

There are thought leaders, discoverers, founders. I'd call them heroes. Ross and Kerry don't just report on French science, spirituality, and claims of the paranormal. They take part themselves. They show up so you don't have to. But you might find that you want to. My arm is better.

I can walk again. I wrote an entire book this weekend. It's terrible, but I did it! Just go to MaximumFun.org. Thank you, Ross and Carrie. O'Neill Ross and Carrie is just a podcast. It doesn't do anything. It's just sound you listen to in your ears.

All these people are made up. Goodbye.