Sawbones: A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine - The Unkillable Phineas Gage

Episode Date: July 24, 2015

This week on Sawbones, Justin and Dr. Sydnee blow metal rod through a guy's brain and live to tell about it. He does too, which is more impressive, in retrospect. Music: "Medicines" by The Taxpayers

Saabones is a show about medical history, and nothing the hosts say should be taken as medical advice or opinion. It's for fun. Can't you just have fun for an hour and not try to diagnose your mystery boil? We think you've earned it. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy a moment of distraction from that weird growth. You're worth it. that weird growth. You're worth it. Alright, time is about to books! One, two, one, two, three, four! We came across a pharmacy with a toy and that's lost it out. We were shot through the broken glass and had ourselves a look around.

Some medicines, some medicines, the escalant macaque for the mouth. Wow! Hello, already welcome to Saul Bones tour of misguided medicine. I'm your co-host Justin McElroy and I'm Sydney McElroy Yeah, what was that? That's a sound I make for this week This has been a rough week. It's been a rough week. That's why our show is late and we're sorry if we could use cursing on this show We would be doing so but we're not going to it's not the worst Problems in the world people in the world got worse problems than this, but it doesn't seem like this when you're sleep deprived That's right poor Charlie has had strep throughout this week She's been sick and trying to talk an 11 month old into drinking when their throat is sore not

Not tenable it's untenable. It's like she just doesn't understand. Hey kid. I'm like, look, this, this Motrin is gonna help and then you gotta drink water or. We got your best interest in our heart. Booming for something because you're gonna get dehydrated and she just looks at me like I don't speak yet and I don't understand what you're saying mother.

If you want me to stack some blocks on time of each other, hit me back. I will do that on command. No problem. But don't worry. Can you make a ruin anything? Do you have anything I can tear up a ruin? Would you like me to poop all over Dad? No problem. Cause I just did that. I was just did that this, uh, hotchi mochi. He was covered.

Nod. Just a must cover. You think podcasting is all glamour, but my friends I'm here to tell you the life of podcasting doctor and her loveable sidekick podcasto the clown It's not all glamour. It's not a blitz podcasto he picked up Charlie and her Diablo full of poop and then he squeezed her tight and then he was covered in poop next week on solbona's I'm dead now. It's so worse. So how do you really be back? I don't know.

The race is on. Sydney, here's all I want you to do with this. I don't want you to freak me out with any weird leg worms or anything. Just whisk me away. You just want a story? A story time? Just a story. Just whisk me away.

Okay. I can do that. I can do that. Let's just, this isn't really about a disease or like a weird treatment. This is just a, how about a crazy story from the annals of medicine that you're gonna laugh about that. It's a long week. There you go. All right. That is about a guy named Phineas Gage. I've never heard of Phineas Gage, Sydney. See, and I'm glad that you say that. I think I get a work perspective sometimes in medicine

because I assume that there are these stories that everybody has heard about. And I think it's because I heard it in medical school. I don't know, it just seems popular enough. Although most people who've done something in psychology or psychiatry would probably know this as well. We'll certainly say psychiatry because I said medical school, but psychology too.

Okay. Maybe if you even just took some psych classes, you may have heard this story before. I'm ready. Tell me all about Mr. Finne's gauge. Okay, well first of all, thank you to Catherine and Talia who both recommended this topic. Thanks, y'all. This is a great interesting story, so let's imagine... It is 1823. We are it is 1823. Uh, where things sucked worse than just your kid having strep throat to be fair.

That's all the kids probably did also get strep throat. Well, I mean, they did. Uh, you know, who didn't get strep throat? Who? Young, Phineas. Phineas Gage, which is a great name. We didn't mention that. That's a good name.

Phineas was the oldest of five children of Jesse and Hannah Gage and he lived in grafting county New Hampshire. And prior to the the story that we're going to tell today, he was a guest, just a regular, healthy, young kid. Average Joe. Average, well even maybe even an above average Joe. Oh yeah. Yeah, he, uh, so he, his family doctor, Doc Harlow, who is gonna take care of him through this whole crazy story that I'm gonna tell you. Note it had taken care of him since he was a kid and noted that before all of this stuff

we're gonna talk about, he was, in his words, a perfectly healthy, strong and active young man, 25 years of age. He noted that he had a nerve-obilius temperament. Narvo-obilius. So, something to do with nerves and then, billius like bile, something brute. That's great job, Justin. That doesn't tell us anything about his temperament, but you figured out where those words came from.

I mean, he's just nervy. No, actually, this is a phrenology term. And we've never, I don't think we've done, do we do an episode of that. I don't remember And we've never, I don't think we've done, do we do an episode of it? I don't remember if we did. But I don't think we did. If we didn't, we will. But anyway, a nervous ability, a temperament,

would mean that he was, it's probably a good thing. It meant that he was like energetic and very active and strong. Full of them and vigor. Yeah, vivacious. Like, yeah, like that's the kind of guy he was. He was five foot six average weight and he according to his family doc possessed an iron well and an

iron frame. His muscular system being unusually well developed. Well okay. He didn't even really have any have any of the typical childhood illnesses. He survived most of the stuff that unfortunately wiped out the younger people and in back in the 1820s. So this, this, this, this doc savage of a man, this, this hearty fellow, what was his, uh, He was a hearty fellow. I think that's fair to say. What was his, what was his thing? So, so as he grew up, he was not, he was not very well educated. He, uh, by all records was a literateate. And instead, he decided to pursue his strength, his natural, you know,

them and vigor, as you put it, to further himself in this world. And he worked in railroad construction, working on the Hudson River Railroad, and he later became a blasting foreman. This sounds like a thrilling job. I thought it sounded like a thrilling job, too. So I looked up what this was so I could understand better.

I mean, I kinda, like, it's a guy who oversees like explosions. Yeah, I would think so. So I wanted to, like, exactly what it entailed to be a blasting form. And especially back in the year, when we were talking about like the 1830s now, the 1840s, okay.

You have a special connection, this railroad's running your blood. That's true. You have a special connection to this railroads running your blood. That's true. You have rail steel running through your veins. That's true, my dad and my grandpa worked for CSX, Railroad, which of course was Chessie and Seaboard Systems. And the X, nobody knows. The X, nobody knows.

My dad, you tell me that when I was little, that they were the, the C was for Chessie, the S was for Se C-board and then the X is like the mysterious factor that combines the two. I think that was the way he explained it to me. And I used to think like that's fascinating. It's really just probably like railroad, right? Probably yeah. Or something or something. Just X. I don't know. Just they needed another one. That works. C.S CS was taken. So, in order to construct a railroad, especially back in the 1800s, there's going to be stuff in your way and you're going to have to get it out of your way, right? Like mountains and rocks and things that are not, that you can't like dig.

So I mean, like I guess if it was dirt, you could just dig it out of the way. But if it's rock, you got to blow it up to move it out of the way so you can build your railroad. This seems like pretty of the way, but if it's rock, you gotta blow it up to move it out of the way so you can build your railroad. This seems like pretty rude to mintery, but go on. Okay, so in order to blow it up, what you would have done at this time was bore a hole into a rock, whatever the rock that you wanna get rid of,

and then you would put gunpowder down into the rock hole, and you would lightly tamp that down, lightly Okay. And then put a fuse in it. And then you would pour a bunch of sand, something inert over it so that then you could really pound that down into the hole. And then you would, I guess, light that fuse on fire and run. I would run and yell something probably. I'm assuming fire in the hole. He gets something. What do I get out of the way? What I do? Run.

Oh no. Ah railroad coming, railroad coming. I think you should act like it's a surprise every time. And then it's like, I just couldn't you guys. I knew that was going to happen. What? I'm a professional. Just lighten things up and start out there.

Now, in order to to to tamp down the gunpowder and the sand you would use something called a tamping rod. It makes sense, right? It's just a big iron rod, okay? So this is basically what Phineas was doing. He was boring holes in rocks, pouring in the gunpowder, the fuse, the sand, and then pounding it down with a rod, and then like I said, lighting on fire and running. Got it. So, on September 13th, 1848, he was hard at work building the Rutland and Burlington Railroad in Vermont, and he was pretty well respected in his job.

He had been doing it for a while. He was good at it. He even at some point made his own custom tamping rods. Just like cool flame decals on the side and a skull one went in. Let me pimp your rod. Pimp your rod. So he, yeah, I don't know. He was not using one of his custom tamping rods at the time.

He was using one with brand X. He was actually doing generic tamping. Now I, now I read some accounts that this was one that was made just for him, but most agreed that this was something that a blacksmith made for somebody else, cause it was a special kind of tamping rod and it was actually tapered at one end. And I don't know, he borrowed it, it was lent to, I don't know, but anyway.

It wasn't old tampi, this classic tamping rod. His favorite tamping rod. Wonder boy, it's tamping rock. It was formed from a tree branch that was hit by lightning. No, are you referencing Teen Titans? No, I was referencing the natural, but probably also by extension Teen Titans. So anyway, he did his usual routine. He made a hole in a rock.

He filled it with gun powder. and then the account gets a little fuzzy as to what went wrong, because something goes terribly wrong here, terribly wrong. One quick point, I think I was actually referencing the Simpsons referencing the natural, because I really, I, Christy, I've never seen the natural, but somewhere in there is something, someone nodded, and if not laughed, not it, and smirked knowingly. And there's somebody out there who has not. You've become my basses. Teen Titans, episode of The Staff and The Tree

and The Staff Tree. Yeah. It works on so many levels. It's probably the best reference. Anybody who's not seen the natural has ever made about the natural. I think we can all agree on that point. What's the natural now?

They're moving on. So anyway. I don't know. I have it. Robert Effort hits a baseball so hard to break some light. That's literally all I know about it. And I think he's got a batting wonder boy, but that might have just been one of the Simpson called his bat in the natural parody of The Simpsons. Well, how did you even know it was a parody of The Natural if you'd never seen The Natural?

Cultural osmosis. I don't know. I don't know. I just wanted to think you pick up from watching like Academy Awards recap So something like when I have those mom dodges about like remember all the great times at baseball bats You remember that broke lights people who died? No, like not the memorial one like here's some great scenes of Smash and yeah, yeah, well why we love movies You know Simpsons and the team's item. Do you want me to talk about Phineas Gage some more?

I would give you anything to talk about Phineas Gage some more. So, Phineas Gage is hard at work, tamping down this thing, this stuff and this rock is gonna blow up. Anyway, at this point, something went wrong. Either he, I think what is most likely he's distracted. I feel like you're about to get to the meat of this story.

Are you sure you don't want to stop and talk about who's tamping Ron he was using for a few more minutes first? I want to really visualize. This tamping rod is important. Okay, okay, got it. Check off's tamping rod. That's why I'm talking about the tamping rod. So it's important and there are people

who know this story who are going yes, obviously. Anyway, listen to another podcast. He was distracted. Go listen to another podcast. He was distracted. He was distracted. He missed his history class. They cover stuff you don't know about. This is intro level. He was distracted for a second, and he looked away.

And it is unclear if, when he looked away, he was doing the actual tamping, and he knew that there was no sand in the hole yet, and he was just trying to lightly tamp down the gunpowder, or because you would lightly tamp, I mean, it's gunpowder. You wanna be careful. Or if he had thought that the sand,

because there was another guy pouring the sand in the hole, if he thought that the other guy poured the sand in the hole, and he wasn't really paying attention, so he started tamping much more vigorously. Because once the sand's in there, you can just really like, just tamp away. Beat the crap out of it.

Anyway, one way or another, as he's tamping, he strikes the rock itself. Now, as anyone who has frantically tried to make a fire on survivor can tell you, your goal when you're striking, you know, flint and stone and all that stuff together. Coconut fibers. Yes, it's to make a spark, right? Right. Now, your goal when you're tamping down gunpowder in a hole that you're standing over. The inverse. It's not to make a spark. Not that. Now unfortunately when he struck the rock with his tamping iron,

he did in fact make a spark. Bad job. Which of course hit the gunpowder and caused an explosion. Sure. Now, this tamping rod that he's using, to give you a brief description, is three feet, seven inches long, okay? Okay. It's an inch and a quarter in diameter, and it weighs about 13 and a quarter pounds. And it's tapered on the end that is... It's a second of a run.

Yes, and it's tapered on the end that is next to his head. Next to his face. That he is vigorously pounding up and down next to his face. The explosion caused the rod to spring back up out of the hole filled with gum powder, directly through the head of poor Mr. Gage It entered just below his left cheekbone passing behind his eye and Up through the top of his head. Mm-hmm. It landed about 80 feet away

Covered in blood and some bits of brain. Well, Sid, that's going to do it for us on sawbones. I got to say one of our shortest episodes, and honestly, one of our most puzzling, not sure why that grim little anecdote was necessary. The death of Phineas Gage, what a sad, sad tale it was. Anyway, we're, you know, see, you would think you would think that he died at this point, but the story does not end here. He does not die here.

He does not die at this time. And he stays just not dying at this time. No. Phineas fell down. According to a county fell down. He convulsed a bit. And then after a few minutes, he started probably, like probably, right? He probably evacuated his balance one, but think it's not documented.

Okay. Then he sat back up. Who would tell tell I would keep that secret. This is all well documented There are many accounts of this got it who wouldn't have written about this right? You won't believe what I saw work today. I would invent live journal right there Just I would have to that to post on it. So then he sat back up and started talking to people Okay, I'm assuming saying something like Ow up and started talking to people. Okay. I'm assuming saying something like, ow. When's lunch? Oh God.

Get me out of here. How did this happen? He's alerted and awake by all accounts talking to people normally and they pop them in an ox cart and take him back to the hotel. Mm-hmm. At this point, he encounters Dr. Edward Williams, who is the local doctor.

He's not at home. Remember, he's out in Vermont doing this work. And he describes when he found Gage sitting on the porch of this hotel. And he says that when he drove up, Gage looked at him and said, Dr. Here is business enough for you. He writes that Dr. Williams writes that he noticed the wound as soon as he allided from his carriage the pulsations of the brain being very distinct. He said he described the top of Gage's head as appearing somewhat like an inverted funnel. So he examines them and Gage is telling him what's going what happened. He's describing to him what went wrong and what just happened Yeah, and he is not believing him at first. There's no way. There's no way that this giant iron rod just passed through this guy's head through his brain

And now he's sitting here talking to me. It's impossible And especially with his okay as he seems at first Yeah, but then the doctor notes that at this, after he's told him some of his story, Phineas decides to stand up. And at this point, Mr. G got up and vomited. This is the doctor's words. The effort of vomiting pressed about half a tea cup full of the brain, which fell upon the floor,

and then he passed out. I had to tell him it wasn't the part that he had his ATM pin on, because man, that is such a pain in the pituit to get that reset. That would just, that would be really unfortunate. I really appreciate that the measurement we're using, the standard of measurement for the brain at this point, the amount of brain is half a T cup full.

Well, it fell into a T cup. That's the only reason they... Ew. Gross. I think this says a lot about Dr. Williams. He seems like a very proper gentleman. This one's half a T cup. That's the only reason they... Ew. Gross. I think this says a lot about Dr. Williams. He seems like a very proper gentleman. That's about half a T cup full. Now at this point, Dr. Harlow is gonna get involved

and Dr. Harlow, when he arrived, I just love his description of this situation. This is a very typical Dr. description of this. He described it all as truly terrific. So I have three questions for you. What? And what? Justin, I would love to answer. What? I would love to answer all three of these questions right after we visit the Billing Department.

Let's go. The medicines, the medicines that ask you lift my car before the mouth. Sidney, I have been obsessed during that commercial break. I've been trying to focus I skillet my cards for the mouth Sydney I have been obsessed during that commercial break. I've been trying to focus with all of my All of podcastos energy went into those average advertisements but back in the back of my head way way way way way deep where I keep all of my Knowledge about ever quest from college which by the way should I ever happen to me I hope that's the part my brain gets switched out. I don't need to remember that stuff I don't need to remember where to get the test move in here all that crap get that squeezed out Now what's ever quest?

So what what's the deal? Okay, Dr. Harlow. That's where we left things. So this is not a sad story like I like I promised you this is So this is not a sad story. Like I promised you, this is where the secret or high-fairy tale story. Well, it's all a perspective, isn't it, Sid? I mean, oh, Finneus has probably had better days. I mean, it was in his last day, which is pretty sweet. It was not.

It was not in fact his last day. So at this point, like I said, he has this big hole in his face and head, where an iron rod passed through. Yeah. Dr. Williams is there. Dr. Harlow arrives to assist. And I guess Dr. Harlow had even had a little bit of surgical training.

Dr. Williams hadn't really. For a second, I thought you were about to say a little bit of rum to drink. Or a little bit, he'd been drinking a little bit that day, which made all this so much more frightening. I'm certain when he was done with the procedures that are about to ensue, he had a little bit of rum or something at the end of his life.

I think he learned it. So Williams and Harlow, who are really just making all this up as they go, because this is, I mean, as you can imagine, this is kind of untread ground. This is not familiar territory. They decide to, they're gonna clean up this wound. So they shave his head, they remove all the stuff that's kind of in the way, the debris, the blood clots and bone bits and

they note that they take about an ounce or so of brain out. I don't know how much that is in a teacup measurement. Not an ounce. Not a standard measurement. And then they start kind of bandaging the whole thing up loosely, covering it, they go ahead and bandage up the wound on his face, on his cheek. Same thing leaving it loose so it can drain. They know to do that. And then he also had some burns on his arms and so they kind of take care of that too. He seemed okay at that point. He's still talking to them. He still seems like himself. He noted that he didn't really want to see his friends at this point. He didn't want anybody to come visit him because he'd probably be back at work in a few days anyway and he would

just talk to him then. It was his plan at this point. Now, of course, that didn't happen. Sure. Things didn't go that smoothly. Phineas had a long and difficult recovery. These were in the days before we really understood infection and antiseptic technique. Yeah, I was afraid of this. And he's got a big giant hole in his face in his head. And so he develops infections, a fungal infection. Oh!

Oh! At, he begins to have granulation tissue, which is like healing tissue that starts to form, kind of sticking out of the head wound. And scar tissue. Sort of, sort of the healing tissue that starts to form kind of sticking out of the head wound and scar tissue, sort of the healing stuff before scar tissue. Okay. And so it's kind of a good thing, but it's kind of sticking out of the head wound.

So like periodically, like Dr. Harlow is like cutting stuff out of his head wound. At one point, his eyeball was kind of poking out of his face a little bit. But Harlow actually seems to be pretty good with keeping up with all this stuff. All things considered. Yeah, I mean, the fact that the time period and Harlow probably didn't have any training in this kind of thing, and how many patients that even had this happen, you know, this doc seems to be on top of things.

He keeps everything open and draining. At one point he has to kind of cut open his face and drain a big abscess, like in like over his forehead and eye area. He keeps trimming back like excess tissue and all this and overall he does a pretty good job of keeping gauge alive. And over time, now first things get really bad, right? So he's doing okay.

And then he kind of is in a semi-comato state for a while through a touch and go. His family actually even had him measured for a coffin and picked out clothes and stuff for his funeral, thinking that I mean that he probably wasn't going to make it. But he starts doing better. Dock Harlow pulls him through. And by November November he's finally able to go back home and he's even up working around the farm. Oh, now his mom notes that he can only work about a half day. So I mean, he's so pretty lazy. Yeah, come on man. But he's actually doing pretty good and he's returned to somewhat of like a

functional state and he feels okay and and it's kind of a success story. And more of this starts to spread, right? Because this guy had this big iron bar pastor who's had and he's still alive. So at this point, other people in the medical world begin to take notice and he's invited to Harvard so that he can meet before one of the Boston medical societies and he can meet the doctors and they can, one, confirm that this really happened because a lot of people were like,

there's no way this is true. There's no way this is possible. But all the docs wanna look at him and look at his head and talk to him and see like did this really happen and a lot of people, you know, end up believing him. He, at one point, was presented in Barnum's American Museum, not the circus, which is... So it was very dignified. It was very dignified. He stood there holding his tamping iron. This tamping iron, by the way, is with him all of his life. Yeah. He, I mean, who wouldn't want that

souvenir? He's halfway to like a crime fighter at this point. I mean, like seriously, this is an origin story. He gets it and he takes it with him. And so he appears in the in Barnum's American Museum holding this tamping iron. And he's even paid various places for some like public appearance appearances. You know, kind of like look at this guy who had a hole in his head and hears his tamping iron

and can you believe it? Wild medical thing that happened. But after people kind of lose interest in seeing that kind of thing, he decides, you know what, this really isn't where I want to, I'm not into this as a way to make my living. I don't want to be this like kind of medical oddity show. And so instead he moves down to Chile. Okay. And gets a job as a stage coach driver. All right. And so he works there.

Okay. That's fine. Great. Yeah. Continues for 12 years. Whoa. Doing fine. Now 12 years later, things are not going so well.

For whatever reason, he begins to have some seizures at this point. They prevent him from performing his job after a while. He has to return. Actually, his family lives out in San Francisco at this point. So he moves out that way to be with family. He continues to have seizures. I think even Dr. Harlow came and visited him again and nobody could really help him at this point. All in all though, that's a pretty good run. Yeah, and he did pretty well until then. So he died in May of that year, but he lived 12 years after an iron rod passed through his face and head.

Now what I want to know is like, okay, so we know he lived, but what sort of effect did it have on him? That's, see, that is the life after death that Phineas Gage has had. So if you have heard about him, you have either, unless you're just interested in reading about this kind of stuff, have you have heard about him in medical school?

Or perhaps you took some psych course at some point, even introductory psych texts, two-third of them, two-thirds of introductory psych psychology books tell this story. So you may have heard about this before, and that is because Phineas Gage frames a lot of what we think we know about the frontal lobe. So at least part of one of Gage's frontal lobes was blown away by this, by this explosion in the tamping iron, maybe part of his other temporal lobe, I'm not really sure. And there were reports initially, and this is what I was taught, actually, when I first started this story. There were

reports about his behavior after he recovered, that he was completely different. That before he was a nice, normal, healthy guy, polite, friendly, hardworking. And that after he recovered from the incident and went back out into the world, the reason that he couldn't go back to his initial job is because of how inappropriate he was, how vulgar, how much profanity he used, he was violent, he was inappropriately sexual, and just overall a big jerk. Yeah.

So a lot of people use this as evidence for the fact that the frontal lobe is, and we say this a lot, it's where the who of you exists, that's where what makes you you is your personality, not so much the what, doesn't make you breathe and stuff, but it makes you, you know, makes Justin Justin. Gotcha. I'm sorry, podcasto, podcasto.

Thank you, I appreciate it. And that if you, if you damage the frontal lobe that you're going to drastically change someone's personality. And so there were some, some people who who wrote that about gauge that later after it was all said and done. He was he was really, you know, a jerk. But that wasn't consistent. As I read into this, actually, there were still just as many people who say he really hadn't changed that much after the injury. And I had to read about what goes into becoming a stage coach driver because this is the main

or argument, that's why I mentioned that. This is the main argument against him being really unable to function after the incident. In order to be a stage coach driver, you have to be extremely hard working and organized and driven. You have to work like 13 hour days, doing an incredibly difficult, like physically and mentally demanding task,

guiding the horses and navigating. He was also in a different country, and there are no accounts that he spoke the language when he went there. Yeah. And so he was able to kind of navigate that as well. So it seems unlikely that he was, a disaster.

Violent and yelling at people and cussing at everybody and that kind of thing because how would he have functioned? So this may all be apocryphal. It may not be true. But this sparked conversations for decades since. Phrenologists used it as evidence for their craft, phrenology, that it destroyed his organs of benevolence and veneration. That's why he was such a jerk afterwards.

They also said that it destroyed his organ of comparison, and so they said that afterwards, he couldn't tell you like, he'd give you like a thousand dollars for something that would cost five cents. Yeah, I don't know. Some kind of rainman reference I guess. Psychologists have used this to explain that the frontal lobes are where the personality sets. And so if you just destroy the frontal lobe, you know, then somebody changes drastically.

A surgeon's kind of saw this as like a challenge. Kind of a call to arms. Yes. Like look, we can remove part of the brain and you can still be alive. So there's all kinds of brain procedures that we can try now. So this probably sparked a lot more interest in brain surgery because we didn't even know if you could do this to the brain and people survive. But all in all, a lot of what we know or what we have thought we knew about the frontal cortex throughout, you know, the last cortex throughout, you know, the last 100, almost 200 years is related to this case, which is really interesting. And it may be wrong, although today we do know that people who have frontal lobe injuries can be changed. They can have impulse control problems and things like that.

But it's been very interesting because this one man, this unfortunate circumstance that he manages to survive has shaped a lot of what we think we know about psychology and neurology and neuroscience. Thank you all so much for listening to this episode of Saw Bones. We hope you've enjoyed it. Thank you, Sydney, for helping to distract me from how little we've slept this week. I appreciate that. Well, you're welcome. We're a part of Maximum Fun Network, which is a podcast networking find at MaximumFun're welcome. We're a part of Maximum Fun Network, which is a podcast networking. Find it MaximumFun.org.

There's a ton of great shows there. If possible, I'd like to promote one of my own programs this week. My brother, my brother, meets in a vice show that we do. We did an all a sponsored episode that was completely sponsored by Totino's makers of Pizza Rolls. It is a 45 minute show all about pizza rolls, which doesn't sound good. Now, do you also cover the crisp and tasty pizza

and the party pizza? That's a Geno's product, J-E-N-O-S, which is also part of the Totino's family. So you know we do dip in there, absolutely. Those are my favorite. You can find that at imbemba.com or on iTunes, where you can find all the maximum fun shows. Thanks to this taxpayer's flatness user song Medicines, for the intro and not show over a program. Thank you to those of you who are already signed up to come

see us when we go to the Pacific Northwest at the end of August. If you live in Seattle or Vancouver or you can get there, go to bit.ly4tslashmbaamciadil or bit.ly4tslashvannnbnbaam. And you can come see us live with my brother, my brother me. It's gonna be fun. Yeah, come check us out. Also, I forgot to mention, if you want to see Finnish gauges skull and tamping Iron, you can go to Harvard Medical School's Warren Anatomical Museum. Well, I'm booking tickets and in the meantime, until next Wednesday. Hopefully with any luck, or baby stays healthy. I'm just a Macarons. I'm Sydney Macarons.

And as always, don't drill a hole in your head. Alright! Maximumfund.org Comedy and Culture, Artistone Listener Supported Artistone. Listener supported.