Sawbones: A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine - Vaccine Verification

Episode Date: April 20, 2021

About a year ago, Sawbones discussed what herd immunity was not. In this episode, we look at how we’ll get there, and what role vaccine verification will play. How has it impacted public health historically, and what can we anticipate in the near future?Music: "Medicines" by The Taxpayers

Saubones is a show about medical history, and nothing the hosts say should be taken as medical advice or opinion. It's for fun. Can't you just have fun for an hour and not try to diagnose your mystery boil? We think you've earned it. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy a moment of distraction from that weird growth. You're worth it. that weird growth. You're worth it. Alright, talk is about books. One, two, one, two, three, four. Hello everybody and welcome to Sobhones a mariled tour of misguided medicine me on your coast just in Macroly and I'm Sydney Macroly

You sounded surprised there that you're just in Macroly. Honestly, you've been I'm just excited You've been on hospital service this week, and I feel like we haven't had much time to talk. And if it takes putting microphones in front of us to get that done, then all right, I'll take it. It's been a busy week. Has been a busy week. This is very true. Has been a busy week. I'm looking forward to sleeping again soon.

Yes, someday. Some sweet day. We said it at the same time. I don't know if you heard me. What? Someday, we both said it. We both said it. We both said it. We both said it. We both said it. We both said it at the same time. I don't know if you heard me. What? We said it at the exact same time. Yeah. Isolated.

Rachel, enhance. No, it's okay, Rachel. You don't need any enhance. So Justin, Sydney. I want to talk about something this week. First of all, I want to set out the name of what I'm talking about and continue to use this term because it is the most accurate, truthful term that should be used. The mark of the beast. Oh no.

No, no, no, no, no. No, what do you want to go at? No, no, no, no. You're going to go at. Vaccine verifications. Okay. First of all, thank you, Patrick Kelly, for recommending the Stoppick. I really appreciate it.

I hadn't thought about it as a potential solbund's topic. I mean, I was aware of it, but like the history of it and getting into it and some of the information about it and stuff came from this listener. So thank you. I appreciate it because it's really important right now with all of the various COVID-19 vaccines out there that we're talking about it a lot and encouraging

people to get vaccinated. Oh, yeah. Yes. And that's the only way we get out of this mess. Come on, West Virginia. I'm looking at you. You're slipping. Yep.

Although I bet the number of West Virginians that have not yet got their vaccine yet listed to sawbots is a pretty slim wool. Slip around the vent night. Graham, but it's still if you're out there. Who first of all, it is really important. This is not a passport. I am going to get into the history of this, but this is not that is not the accurate name for this document. So when you talk about vaccine passports, that is not what these are.

They're not. Because the government issues a passport after they evaluate you and make decisions about you based on information that you provide them. And it's only something that the government can give you sort of like grant you as a reward for, you know. Being such a great citizen. Not committing a lot of crimes or something.

Whatever, whatever the criteria is, that is not what this is because you don't have to like prove you're worthy of one of these. You just get the vaccine. It's a statement of truth. It's a fact. It's a card that reflects a truth, which is you've been vaccinated. That's all it is. So it's a verification.

That's it. Yes. Got it. And why are we talking about this? Because there was a global pandemic recently. It's kind of winding down. So maybe I had noticed. Yeah, but so you might have missed it, but yeah, it's a global pandemic.

And then there's vaccines out there for people, so. There has been a lot of debate, more specifically, about this exact topic. Is it ethical? Is it just, is it in line with American values? But maybe in other countries, they're also discussing this. I'm not going to say that this is a uniquely American discussion. But is it okay to require some form of proof

that you've received a vaccine to participate in various activities? Travel being the most common one that is sort of floated, right? Yes, are you talking about interest state or international? Right now, the only way in which people are talking about it are international traveling. I don't, I can't see that.

Well, this is an opinion, this is not a fact. It's hard for me to see that being an interstate travel thing. Yes. Because it's really easy. We could be in a different state from where we are in our state in minutes. Yes, but it doesn't necessarily prohibit this from being used to exclude you from like things that happen in like to get into like a baseball game, for example, or something like that. Well, it's tough because then you're getting into private events.

So there's, and we're going to get into all this. Okay. There's multiple levels in which this could apply. And in different politicians have already come out to very loudly express their views on this subject. Oftentimes I find they don't necessarily look into all of the reasons behind it, pros, contrus, benefits. They just sort of say things.

Out of auditions in America. The governor of Florida, the great state of Florida, Ron DeSantis, has made it clear. This will not happen to Floridians, not on his watch. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no like to resume you. Yeah, when you talk about her, I think she prefers that you make sure that all her bona fide is to be right there at the, it's important to recognize someone's accomplishments. She called it Biden's mark of the beast. I guess that's what you were referencing in the beginning there. And for his part, Biden just said there won't be a federally-issued vaccine verification card. Oh, there.

Well, he didn't, like I spoke first and said it before him. But basically, that's... So why is everybody all upset? Is this something we could do? Is it ethical? Is there a history of this? Is this something we have done? Already do?

And that's what I want to address, because yes, there's precedent for this. And you're probably already sitting there thinking, well, I did have to get a vaccine for whatever you're thinking about at this moment, but I mean, because this is not a wild idea. Oh, you did it in schools, right? I mean. Mm-hmm.

But I think that talking specifically about the idea of some sort of card that just says, yes, I got a vaccine, why it is not something to be afraid of, why it is something we should approach thoughtfully and with consideration of a lot of different factors. But at the end of the day, the majority of people in this country already support the idea. So I think that's important to say. You'll hear a lot of people shouting it down, but the majority of people are like, I just really want to go out into the world again.

Whatever you need, could I please leave my home? Thank you. It's been a long year. So a common phrase at the turn of the 19th century was, show a scar. Do you know what that was in reference to? No. So smallpox, which we have talked about on the show before, had long been a scourge

throughout the world. We did a whole episode on it, killing many permanently scarring a large fraction of those who did survive it, with all the little pox sores all over your body could leave a scar. And so you could be quite scarred from smallpox afterwards. Not everyone was, but you could. And when Jenner introduced the cowpox inoculation in 1796, which was the precursor to what would later be used to vaccinate against smallpox, which again, we've talked about, but taking that was Chris Jenner, mother of a concrulation creator of the smallpox vaccine. Of course, that's the gender of cities referring to. Yes, obviously. Historical context.

But when this was first introduced, this marked the beginning of the end for the Pox virus, known as smallpox. But how did you prove you got the vaccine? So he introduced cowpox inoculation. This would eventually become a vaccine with a different virus, the vaccine, a virus. It's where vaccine, it all comes from. I know it seems like convenient. Yes, we've covered this. Well, back then, you could do a few things.

If you had been vaccinated against smallpox and somebody needed proof that you had, you could provide a document that said it. So whoever gave you the vaccine could just write it down in old, timey fashion with a little pen dip it in the little well. The whole bit has received it. Get the feather all bit. The vaccine and you could prove that or you could just roll up your sleeve and show them your scar. Because the smallpox vaccine was different from probably a lot of the vaccines you've received.

Although there are people who are very well listened to this podcast who did get a smallpox vaccine and know this difference. The original process back in Jenner's day, involved sort of cutting your skin and like rubbing some pus or scab, some residue into it. Yes, to inoculate you to give you the cow pox and then you would form a scab at that site and then when the scab healed and fell off it left a pretty distinctive looking scar. Now, obviously, we didn't stick with this method over time. We refined the smallpox vaccine.

But even the updated methods still could leave a mark. Have you seen the way? Because I mean, there are people, there are a lot of people, a lot of today, who received a smallpox vaccine. We did not, because by the time we came along, it was eradicated. The greatest generation had already taken one of the arms. So it was gone, but a lot of people have, and the way that they used to administer this

vaccine, I mean, there were different ones, but the majority got it this way. There was a small needle, this bifurcated, it had two little tips on the end, two prongs, okay? And you would stick it down in a vial of the vaccine liquid. And then you would just jab it into their deltoid, so in their upper arm, like 15 times. Just jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, right? You will have some bleeding. And some discomfort. And I would imagine some discomfort. And it is not uncommon that you're going to have some sort of skin reaction, right?

At this site where you have now been vaccinated, you're going to have some kind of bleeding scabbing again, a scar forms. And this distinctive scar could be used as proof. So if you needed to show that you'd been vaccinated against smallpox, you didn't have to have documentation necessarily because it was really obvious. You just rolled up your sleeve, showed him this scar, and they went, yep, that's a smallpox vaccine scar, all right.

So could, for that matter, having multiple scars because surviving smallpox was also, you know, fine. That was an immunity proof of immunity is at that point. You could have an immunity passport as opposed to like, because they did call it that back then. And immunity passport just meant, look at me. I had smallpox and it could be that simple. And at this point, it was not uncommon for these things to be checked if you were say entering

the United States from one of the borders. So whether it was Canada or Mexico or Ellis Island, you may be asked to show one of these forms of proof. Do you have a piece of paper or do you have some scars or a scar to show me to verify that you've been vaccinated against smallpox? Because even at that point, even though this was before the eradication effort that the world took part in and succeeded in, and really we could really like use that to inspire us at this moment, but you could

show and get into the country. And then there were also other places where it began to become mandatory. Schools began to mandate different districts, counties, states, different places throughout the United States started to mandate the smallpox vaccine. In some industries, in order to be employed there, you had to get the vaccine and show proof

that you would have been vaccinated, especially industries like mining or the railroad or like some factories, places where you would be in tight spaces with other people for long periods of time. They were very quick to implement this as a requirement. And so if you wanted to come back to work, you had to show a scar or a vaccine document, something. And so it really became this sort of joint effort between public and private interests, right? In some cases, it was a government mandated thing.

And in some cases, it was really a private business decision. I'm not going to hire you if you don't have this vaccine. Yeah. And a lot of social sort of arenas of the country also followed suit. So like to get into your local lodge, I don't know. In the elves. Yes. We have to have you. Whatever. They might start requiring some of them did. Like, well, we really, we only love people in who are vaccinated. So sorry. I imagine it was sort of like that. Like that kind of like, I'm so very excited.

It's awkward, but that. Um, and as I said, throughout the 1800s, as the vaccine got better, we moved from the cowpox to the vaccine virus and the vaccine was, you know, more regulated and a better product, so to speak, the compulsory administration of this vaccine grew from county, county, country to country all over the world. People started to mandate. Smallpox was really the beginning of required vaccines. For good reason, as we talked about,

smallpox was a very dangerous deadly illness that was very communicable. So the vaccine was hugely important. And especially since eventually we would figure out we could actually get rid of smallpox. So even more so. Now as soon as we have talked about on the show before, no sooner had we made vaccines and started saving lives, then some people decided vaccines were evil or bad or, yes, you know, infringing on our everybody. They're very challenging people. They've been with us always. Yes, and they began to fight back against the survival of the human race.

I'm just inspired. By, and so there were of course court battles, and by 1905, the Supreme Court of the United States had already kind of settled the matter that like, you can mandate vaccines. And along with mandating vaccines, I think comes this natural progression to proof of that, right? Right, because that's what's the point of mandating and if you can't prove that it happened. Yes, and so in order to participate

in certain things for public good, it is okay that we mandate these vaccines. And it's, and we've talked about this on the show before, but I think it's a good reminder that the rhetoric that was used to fight vaccines then was the same, in many cases, the same rhetoric that we see now. There was the idea of individual liberty. Why don't I want the vaccine?

I don't know. I just don't want it. So I shouldn't have to get it that kind of thing. All the way to the, there was a fear that the smallpox immunization scar, specifically, that scar that so many people had, was the biblical mark of the beast. So, so busted guy, you've tried it with everything. Give up credit card chips, tamagotchi's. I've heard that one. Tamagotchi's? Mark of the beast. credit card chips, tamagotchi's, I've heard that one. Tamagotchi's? Mark of the Beast.

Really? I don't know. Okay. I bet somewhere, somebody. That's interesting. That's funny. Maybe we did that with tamagotchi's. I don't know.

The chat with everything. Yes. Katteers, come on. Yes. Grow up. So, anyway, so that was sort of the roots of the beginning of the concept of mandating a vaccine and then thereby needing some sort of proof. But this wasn't the end.

This was just the beginning. And I want to tell you what happened next. But before we do that, let's go to the billing department. Let's go. The medicines were medicines that I skilled let my God before the mouth. We are the host of my brother, my brother, and me, and now nearly 10 years into our podcast, The Secret Can Be Revealed. All the clues are in place, and the world's greatest treasure hunt can now begin.

Embedded in each episode of my brother, my brother, and me is a micro clue that will lead you to 14 precious gemstones all around this big, beautiful, blue world of ours. So start coming through the episodes. Let's say starting an episode 101 on. Yeah, the early episodes are pretty problematic, so there's no clues in those episodes. No, no, not at all.

The better ones, the good good ones clues a hoi Listen to every episode repeatedly in sequence laugh if you must but mainly get all the great clues my brother my brother me It's an advice show kind of but a treasure hunt mainly anywhere you find podcasts or treasure maps my brother more brother me the hunt is on My brother and brother are me. The hunt is on. All right, Sid. What was the next step that we took? So in vaccine verification. As we came up with more vaccines, as we created more tools to use to prevent deadly and terrible diseases, we needed ways to prove that you've got the vaccine.

And so it is not uncommon for you to just use your doctor's records, right? Like if your pediatrician or family doctor has records of your childhood vaccines, health departments, keep records of those things. So sort of like person to person to get their vaccine records, but it is standard practice to have to show

these to a 10 public school or university. If you want to, I mean, for me, not only did I have to show verification of all the vaccines I'd received to go to medical school, I had to receive some more and show verification of those. And I also had to have antibody titers drawn, meaning that they had to look at my blood and make sure that I was immune to certain things like measles, mumps, shrew bella, show that not only had I received the vaccine in the past, but it was still working. Yeah.

So it is not uncommon to have to prove vaccination or immunity in our day to day. There are many realms. If you want to hold a newborn child of hours, there are lots of vaccines we're going to require that you have had. Just ask my parents. This became like a commonplace idea in society that vaccines are necessary for the public good. You can have private documents that are accessible to you at your, you know, provider's office that you can go get and show whenever necessary, right?

The other common example though, to kind of go outside of that, because that's again like in that personal one-on-one sort of healthcare realm, where it's just you and the, you know, you're getting your personal healthcare records to prove it. The other common example is something called the International Certificate of Vaccination or Preflexus. Now, that's a big long name for what at least I have always called the yellow card. And a lot of people refer to it as the yellow card. Why do they call it the yellow card? Because it's a yellow card. Yeah, it's yellow. That's so confusing. That's what they start using in different colors. Like when at Kmak, when we have pink slopes, and then they start using white, it's like, what do you call this? Pink slopes is what you got when you got in trouble, you know,

you got to get your attention or whatever, because it's been a pink slope. We used to get this thing called a violation, which sounds really intense now. But it wasn it's been a hit, it makes love. We used to get this thing called a violation, which sounds really intense now. But it wasn't color-coded as well, I'm sorry. No, it was just a, I think it was white, but it was color violation. Anyway, it has cards to yellow. Yes, it is a yellow card.

And it was created by the International Sanitary Conventions that started in 1933 and then sort of, it was a process of creating this, these standards and these documents. And anyway, it was amended in 1944 to mandate that on this card for travel, you had to prove color of vaccination, smallpox and typhus vaccination,

and then yellow fever, either immunity or vaccination. Either you had it in your immune, or you've got the vaccine. Those were the original things that you would always need to include on your yellow card. And what a country decided to do in terms of requirement was really up to them, right? Like this was a World Health Organization effort

to come up with these standards, but it was a country by country rule. So one country might say you have to have all these things, another country might say you don't necessarily, you know, I mean it wasn't. Like that if you you can look this up now, if you're going to travel, you have to look this up because we're going to get to, there's still one vaccine that this is very relevant for. And over the years, this would be changed and updated. Some things would start to drop off. Like the color of vaccine is not really particularly effective and we have better treatments for it.

So like, we don't get that anymore, right? Who's gotten a color of vaccine? Not me. Yeah, most of us haven't. So, and then the smallpox vaccine, we eradicated it. Woo, so we don't have to get that anymore. So things would fall off of the list. And so now it is mainly used to provide

proof of vaccination to yellow fever. That is the primary use. Now it can be, there's plenty of room on a yellow card to put all your vaccines. And all your vaccines and a place to put something like prophylaxis, like let's say you're going to a country where malaria is endemic and you're taking malaria prophylax axis, you put that on your yellow card. So there's room for all these other things and a lot of people get confused and think that it's a yellow card because it's about yellow fever. This is not true, it's just because it's yellow.

Got it. That's just, you know, convenience, convenient coincidence. All mine has on it now is yellow fever because there are certain countries around the world that not only can you not go to, if you can't, like they won't let you come in unless you have your yellow card that proves

you've been vaccinated against yellow fever, you can't even travel through them. So you have to be really careful like if you're going to do travel abroad, check about yellow fever vaccination because if you have a connecting flight through a certain country, you might end up not being able to get where you're going. Because yellow fever can be so bad and it can be deadly and we really want to stop letting people

go get it and spread it. We'll not spread it, but get it. Right. You know, spread it. Mosquito spread it. Yeah. Yeah. We'd rather the mosquitoes stop getting on planes. Yes. Just keep our mosquitoes on planes. Are they?

Why are they? Why are they doing this? Why are they traveling on planes and getting it? How are they even getting ticked? Why can mosquitoes travel on planes when I'm not allowed to? Come on. Come on, Biden. And the thing is these mandatory vaccines for travel,

we know helped encourage people to get these vaccines. Like for instance, in the case of smallpox, all of these different pressures that I've already mentioned, public pressures when it came to school and things, or like the military could require a smallpox vaccination, private pressures where like you couldn't, you know, go to your social club or you couldn't have your mining job

or whatever unless you got these vaccines plus travel pressures. Look, you can't come to our country if you haven't been vaccinated against smallpox because we're trying to, you know, get rid of it and we don't want you bringing it here. So get your vaccine if you wanna come visit. All of those things definitely contributed, I mean, in huge part to the eventual eradication of smallpox.

So there's precedent and there are several arguments to be made that this is not only necessary, but kind of inevitable, you know, because we've seen this play out before. Now, there are a couple of factors to move into, like, if we were going to do this. And again, no one is doing this in the U.S. right now. This is not a federal law rule mandate. Nobody is investigating, there's a lot of sort of fear-mongering about the federal government is going to come out and demand you on. I mean, this just not happening right now.

But one thing to consider is that other countries are already doing a form of this. Israel has a green pass. And multiple European countries are also looking into a digital green certificate, which would be the same thing. It's a proof of vaccination against COVID-19. Hawaii and New York are both considering this idea. And New York is already testing one that's like a beta testing of something called the Excelsior Pass.

Um, uh, uh, Israel by the way has, I think one of if not the best sort of adoption rates of the vaccine, uh, on the planet, I saw it today, they just lived a day, mass mandate for outdoor activities. So, so exceptional is there. Spread of vaccinations. Yes. Yes. We, they, they have done an impressive job

in vaccinating people, collecting data, proving the vaccines worked, reassuring people about a lot of the data we have that shows that at this point, we, we've very much believed not only can you, not only does this a vaccine protect you from dying of COVID, from being hospitalized with COVID, from getting COVID, but also from spreading COVID. A lot of that has come out of Israel. So, you know, we've seen success in countries and they're already sort of doing this. China has a digital passport and multiple tourist destinations

have begun to advertise that you can visit with no testing or quarantine if you can provide. So they're not requiring it. And this is sort of like the way it'll go, right? Like you can, we really want you to come because we're a touristy spot on the planet. And that's how we, you know, that's how we pay our bills is usually with tourist dollars.

And we want you to come back. But right now, if you come, you have to get tested before and you got a quarantine for so many days and it's a whole hassle. But if you get that vaccine and you prove it, you don't have to do all that stuff. You can just show up, show us your card, you're good. And so I think again, that's that, that soft pressure, right?

If you do this, your life can be more convenient and fun. So you should get the vaccine. We're not requiring it. We're just incentivizing it. Right. So with all that in mind, why shouldn't we then? What are some of the arguments against other than Mark of the beast things? Like what are some real logical arguments against it? I mean, I have somebody I love yours. What do you have any thoughts? Do you want to do you want to venture a guess before I start telling you? I mean, I don't have to guess.

I know what my concerns are. I don't think we should be. I don't think I want to withhold my, my issues. Okay. Because you always, you'll maybe look dumb if you address this stuff before I say it. So I want to hear to see if you address my issues and concerns. I have, for me, it's a timing issue. I have some real concerns now.

I think the Sydney of the future would feel very different, but the right now. But she's gonna have her hover boots and, you know, new trip, new trip pills. She's like, I've done a worry about COVID. I can zoom high above the Earth above COVID leaf COVID below me Do you need it? Do you need a vaccine verification passport to go to Mars? That's what cities are me actually. Yes. We should do but that's no

COVID on Mars. No, COVID on Mars. There is a feeling that right now is just too soon There's still transmission of the virus at various levels and various places that is still quite high, right? The vaccines aren't 100%. They're really, really good. No vaccine is 100%. That's just, they just aren't. And so the idea that this is a cure all, we just give, get your verification to do whatever

you want. No, we're not quite there yet. So I mean, there's one argument, which is it's not that this is a bad idea. It's that you're pushing it. You're rushing it. Certainly in the US, we are not ready to just give people their cards and let them go travel willing, Lily. We're just not there. Not that we won't be. We're just not there yet. Also, along these same lines, the distribution of the vaccines from country to country is predictably far from equitable.

Some places like the US are vaccinating three million people a day. Which is good, we got a lot of people, so we got a ways to go, but we're doing good. There are other countries where they're still struggling to get vaccines to frontline healthcare workers. So if we're going to start this sort of global effort as we have done in the past to create, you know,

a vaccine verification and make it mandatory for international travel, it's really inequitable because there are going to be certain countries where their citizens are traveling a lot sooner than other countries who are lagging behind because they haven't been given the resources and the support and they don't have the money and the leverage and the power to get their people

the vaccine, right? So there's some issues with that too. And then when you look within each country, it's the same thing, right? What I just described as a global problem, well, look state-to-state, county-to-county, city-to-city, neighborhood-to-nabour-hood, this same problem is happening within the US as well. Black Americans have received the vaccine at half the rate of white Americans and Hispanic Americans are even less than that So if we're gonna start saying like this is your magic ticket and everybody who has it can go do whatever they want and if you don't have it You're still stuck in your house

Well, that's a pretty lousy thing to say right now when Statistically if you're white you're way more likely to have been able to access the vaccine, be fully immune and go do whatever you want. And do not have a historically based hesitancy about, you know, this sort of thing, which I think my audience in this country, there is a lot of that hesitancy. And I think it is well, well, I mean, well,'t know how else to say, I mean, there's not a more delicate way to say it. I get it.

Like, I mean, yeah, for sure. We've documented on this show, like the many, many ways that we have mistreated, you know, minorities with specifically the medical establishment in this country. So yes, I get it. Absolutely. The, there is, it is completely understandable that especially in the United States,

if you are a black American and you do not trust the medical system, well, we haven't given you many reasons to have way. And so I think that is understandable. And the impetus has been on us for a long time, long before a pandemic and a COVID-19 vaccine that we desperately need everybody to get. The impetus has been on us, the healthcare system. I guess I am the, I really don't want to be the long before a pandemic and a COVID-19 vaccine that we desperately need everybody to get, the impetus has been on us, the healthcare system. I guess I am the, I really don't want to be the representative for the American healthcare system. Hey, on this show, too, the U.M.A. Yeah, I know. I think I'm a better representative for the American healthcare system.

As much as I, I dropped a TV on my finger, I'll fall. Come on. I am a doctor and I love taking care of people. I couldn't hate the American healthcare system more than I do. That's fair. I couldn't feel more nauseated by it, but I understand and that we have not done a good job of trying to make right our many, many wrongs and still committing those wrongs today.

That is absolutely truth. So with all that, how do you just, I mean, it's really this is such a privileged thing at this moment. If that is what we do next, is there's your card, go have fun, go on cruises, go all over the world, do whatever you want, you're the winner, take off your mask and have fun,

because it's just wrong, right? It feels wrong, it is wrong. We're not there. We got to wait longer, and we need to make sure that everyone has access to the vaccine before we start talking about this kind of thing and that's not true right now. And then of course there are privacy concerns with digital stuff. So a lot of the talk has been if we were going to pursue this and this is what they've the model that they've used in some other countries is So the model that they've used in some other countries is, instead of the, you know, I have a physical yellow card that has my yellow fever vaccination record on it.

It is a piece of paper that I keep in my passport so that it is with me every time I travel, not that I need it a lot of the time, but it's with me. What we're talking about and a lot of these concerns is not a physical thing. It would be something that you could have on your phone and you could show or whatever. Which means in the cloud. Yes. And there are a lot of concerns with like this general distress of the government and data collection and all that kind of stuff. That is not particularly my concern. I am happy to let the government know that I've been vaccinated to whatever. But it depends on what we, what are we granting new powers to the government to restrict movement based on that.

That starts to get sketchier. It does, it does. And I think that's always a concern. If we're gonna leave it in the hands of government entities to decide what they do with your information. I mean, mostly for me, they just push me ads for kids clothing on Facebook.

I don't, I just don't think, I don't think we should do this. I don't think we should ever do this. Why? Okay. See, again, everything I'm saying is a not now problem. Yeah. I'm not saying a not ever problem.

Okay. Once vaccines are widely, like we're talking about a hypothetical or vaccines are widely available, right? Anybody can walk into a place to get the vaccine, correct? In this, in this hypothetical future. Yes. Do you want to lump in kids?

Can kids get the vaccine in this hypothetical future? Is that a, are we at a point where like kids can get the vaccine if they want? Yes. Okay. I don't think that we should be spending resources on creating a system like this. I think we should be spending resources on like showing the,

like why people should be getting the vaccine and encouraging to get an education, all that stuff. I don't see why, because at a certain point, if everybody can get the vaccine, then I think that you, the personal choice does come into it. You don't find like you're taking the risk, but it is you taking the risk. And if you want to get the

vaccine, then you can get the vaccine. those are the two, right? I mean, but there are still people who won't be able to get this vaccine. Right. And there are going to be people for whom it is not effective. Not a lot. But do you mean that medically speaking? Yes. Yeah. I mean, that there are people who for medical reasons will not be able to receive these vaccines. And don think that that is the whole thing with public health. We have to create a system in which we protect people who cannot for medical reasons get the vaccine or who get the vaccine and maybe they have some immunosuppression, they don't respond the same way and they're not necessarily protected by the vaccine. It's not about whether or not I think the people who are immunosuppressed and can't get

the vaccine should be able to leave their house. I'm not talking about that. I'm saying that we get there quicker through education and like basically, polyticking for this thing versus because like it stands to reason that my my logic would be if this thing is so great and safe and effective, everybody should want to get it, right? So we shouldn't need to mandate people getting it. be if this thing is so great and safe and effective, everybody should want to get it, right? So we shouldn't need to mandate people getting it. It should be something that everybody wants to get. So how do we get to that point, like how do we get to that point?

I agree with you that that step has to come first. I am not, I am, again, this is why I, I do not think this would work now or should happen right now. I am not in favor of this as a now thing because I think you're right. We need to do more work and a lot better work educating people as to why they should get the vaccine and making them comfortable. So I can clarify, right? We're not even in the, like we can't even with this

because it is like a version of coronavirus, like we're not talking about eradication. Like that's not even on the table. Right now that, no, we're not talking about eradication. Like, that's not even on the table. Right now, that is not the conversation. It is very much proof of vaccination so that you can allow people to move around without the risk of creating outbreaks. Right.

That is all that they're talking about at this point. And I think that as using this as precedent, using this as historical precedent, everything I just said, having to prove that you were vaccinated against smallpox somehow, or that you already had it. It did help get it out there more. People did get the vaccine who weren't necessarily anti-vax,

but were a little nervous and had heard the stuff about it and knew it was probably safe, but just weren't ready to take that step. By the enticement of getting to do things was pressure that it hurt people to do it. But like who has the ability? I mean, look at historical precedent for it. I'm not disagree with that.

Who has the ability to do that gatekeeping? Who is the person that you're gonna hand that power over to and say you can decide who gets in and out? Is it that? Private industry can do it. I mean any group can do it already. If you want to say all of your workers, now I think they'll wait until the vaccines,

because they all got emergency use authorization, right? And that is not typically. So like I am mandated to get a flu vaccine in my job. Right. I would anyway, but I mandated. If for some reason I medically cannot get it, then I'd, the, I have to wear a mask all the time at work, which doesn't seem so strange now. But I am mandated to. And that's fine.

I mean, I think that's okay. Again, I couldn't attend medical school until I'd received all my vaccines and proven. I wasn't allowed to travel to certain countries until I'd proven that I'd been vaccinated. All those things I think are fine, and this will be an extension of that not now, but eventually It will be the same thing. Do you really want to have your healthcare workers? Possibly what if you what if you're sick and you have a Doctor or a nurse or somebody who walks into your room and hasn't been vaccinated against COVID and could give you COVID They can't give me COVID I'm vaccinated. I'm saying what if you're not? Why didn't I get vaccinated?

It gets COVID. Maybe you couldn't. This is public health. This is what herd immunity is. We all stand up and do our part and get vaccinated to protect the herd. This is what it is. What percentage? You were going, we said what it wasn't.

Now we're getting to what it is. What percentage of people are we talking about who can't? Like because if there's a percentage of people that cannot get the vaccine, that is also something that has not been widely like discussed or talked about. Is that a, I'm not, obviously everybody has the right to be to be safe.

I'm not saying like, well, oh well, tough no use. But like, is that a statistically significant? What, who are the people that can't get? Anyone, okay, anyone who is on, so? Who are the people that can't get it? Okay. Anyone who is on, so no, the only reason you can't get the vaccine is if you're allergic to it. Okay. Okay.

So you're right. That's going to be very few people. Okay. That is what I was referring to. Anybody who is immunosuppressed, they can get the vaccine maybe, but they're less likely to respond to it. And so they still need protection. They still theoretically need extra protection. Maybe the vaccine works in

them just fine, but we don't have the assurance of that. And so they're, I mean, they can do everything that they can do and still be at risk. And then again, I think they have a right to be able to go outside of their home. It's true. I hadn't, when I had formulated these, it's just the point that some people, even vaccinating people, will not be as safe as a very good one and not one that I had necessarily folded. It just makes me so nervous when we start talking about like the way that power has been used in this country, like when we've given power to either corporations or the government, I think especially in light of the past few years and you know, but like throughout, you know, the entirety of the American experiment, like I think time has shown

that like if you give power to the government or corporations, like they will not quickly see that power back to you or that database or that information or whatever because the threat has passed, right? Like consider what we did in after 9-11, the amount of like liberty, both digital and physical that we issued and like gave to the government in a rush to protect ourselves. I agree with you. I don't want to sound like an conspiracy theorist here, but like, we didn't get those back, right? They didn't stop tapping phones and everything

because whatever the danger had passed. This is why I think. I'm just saying it should be handled with trepidation and it should be, is that the best and smartest way it should be it's not just what it should be handled with it who it should be handled by It should be handled by Public health professionals who have devoted their life and study and service To knowing these things to understanding the risks and benefits, and to enacting policies that protect people while infringing on our individual liberties as little as possible.

And there are people whose job it is to know this. And if we listen to them and not to random politicians who just say whatever they think people want to hear, then we will get somewhere. It's the same thing we've seen in this state with a number of issues. We have politicians making decisions on things like how do we deal with addiction and recovery and needle exchange programs? Yes. Well, the public health professionals say one thing, but I'm a politician, I'll do something

different. Right. If we leave it in the hands of public health professionals, this can be done right. If we leave it in the hands of public health professionals, this can be done right. And I do believe that part of that will eventually be a verification process. I believe eventually there will be a day, I would guess, do you have to prove this to go to school? That's probably going to be true. And I guarantee you, there will be a day that I would not be allowed to go do my job in the hospital without a proof of vaccination against COVID-19. I guarantee you that day will come. And I think that that is fine.

But public health professionals have to make those decisions. I just don't, I guess my trust with like, giving it not Fauci. Fauci is a, like, I'm not talking. Fauci's not going to be the guy standing in like. People like Fauci make these policies. They can make the policies, but they're not going to be the ones enforcing them.

Oh, well, that's. I'm sorry. It gives me a lot of trepidation. I get to make it nervous. I know, but it's worked well in West Virginia. We have some of the strongest. I know you're going to be shocked at this. Some of the strongest vaccination I know you're going to be shocked at this.

Some of the strongest vaccination laws in terms of, especially kids in public schools in the country. And it works really well for us. And it is a good strong policy that should not be reversed. And even in our legislature, when people challenge it, it doesn't stick. We still stick with the good rules. Yeah even even in our legislature, when people challenge it, it doesn't stick. We still stick with the good rules. Yeah. Even here. One of the few things that we nailed. The thing is, uh, the vaccines are our way out

of this. This is how we get out of this. I mean, that just continues to be true. I want to hug people when I see them and shake their hands and I want to see their faces again. I want to fly on planes. I want to be in crowds. I want to be smushed side by side with people watching a band play again someday. I want those things. Well, maybe a little for that, but yeah, I see what you're saying. And we got through this. We got through this. Was it blippy, sunny shoulder shoulder, other adults? Many of us got through this alone

because we had to to protect other people. And it's been really hard to get through it alone. And I think that it's beautiful that the thing we do now to end it is the thing we do together, which is we go get our vaccines. It's the, it's, it needs to be the unifying experience that we all have to end this period of solitude. You go and you get your vaccine. And once you've done that to save lives, to preserve the human race, if you will,

not really, but sure, tell yourself that. To be part of the solution and not part of the problem, when you've done that, why would you not want a badge of honor to show? Why would you not want a certificate of accomplishment? I mean, it's the best participation trophy you will ever get in your life. I'm not, I don't disagree. I think that that is a lovely sentiment for sure. I just don't trust. I don't trust the government. But you still want everybody to get vaccinated, right?

Yeah, I mean, that's the cornerstone of my whole thing. It's like everybody should be getting vaccinated. We should just be proving to people that it's safe and effective. I think that because there has been such a vacuum of good, solid public health discourse for a while, not by all entities. I'm not, I'm not, you know, throwing shade at everybody who's involved in public health, But I think on a, on a broad level, there's been such a vacuum that there is so much conspiracy that's been allowed to flourish, so much flourish, so much misunderstanding of this, that people are just proceeding with so much caution, because it's a to build back the trust that we have lost as a medical community, as a public health force for good, to build that back. I mean, it's a long road.

Agreed. Agreed. Go get it vaccine. Hey, don't get your, if you're listening to this vaccine, if you're listening to this, and it's accessible to you, because there are still places in our life, what's originally,

here you can just go get it now. Oh, it's everywhere. Come on down. I don't think they're looking at licenses. I don't, yeah, I don't know if they are now. Yeah, always everywhere. Come on down. I don't think they're looking at licenses. I don't, yeah, I don't know if they are. It's worth a shot. Come on down. Come on down.

I should say that now. No, but like if you're listening to the show and you could get your vaccine and you have a, I feel like you've been listening to the show. Maybe you haven't been hearing this show. If I can be put a final point on it. And I, man, I'm so conflicted about this one. And I feel like people are gonna yell at me

because anytime that I'm not 100% sure of myself, and I start trying to figure stuff out while recording a podcast, people tend to get mad at me for it. But like, I do, like, I do look at the history of this country and most countries. But like, this country, and and like it makes me freaking nervous. It makes me like, what happens when there's a fee?

What happens when there's a $20 charge? I agree. I agree. I think it is wild to jump into something like this and not have some trepidation about making sure it is executed in a fair and equitable fashion. I agree with all of that. That is exactly why I said all that

because I think there's a ton of thought that has to go into this and it can't just be something that we, again, you can't just get your card and it's your magic ticket and you go do whatever you want. I agree with you completely. I would just say that eventually, there's a form of this will happen. This is coming eventually.

And you're right, to get my yellow fever vaccine, I paid money to get that yellow fever vaccine that I put on my yellow card and then was able to go places. So I mean, you're not wrong. I wanna get that isolated as a tax message alert too. You're not wrong, just use telling me that. But go get your vaccine.

Come on. As soon as it is available to you and your appointment time comes up, I know not everybody can just go get it like we can here right now. Gosh, that is so weird today. So swanky living in West Virginia. West Virginia.

Can't go to a whole fence. The day we can get as many vaccines as we want. I can't even, anyway, but yes, when it is your turn, please get vaccinated. Please. Um, that's going to do it for us. Thank you so much for listening to our podcast. We hope you have enjoyed yourself. We got a book.

It's called the talk about this book. You can get it at book places. Um, so if you like this show and you want to get, you're ready to take the next step. It's the best way of doing it. Thanks to the taxpayers for these their song medicines as the intro and outro of our program. Thanks to you for listening.

We'll be back with you soon, but until then my name is Justin McElroy. I'm Sydney McElroy. And as always, don't draw a hole in your head. Alright! Maximumfun.org Comedy and Culture Artist-owned?

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