Sawbones: A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine - Virology

Episode Date: August 3, 2021

How well do we understand viruses? We were fighting them before we could even see them. Fast forward to today, Dr. Sydnee explains how all of this relates to what we know now about the Delta variant.To donate to the Immunization Action Coalition: immunize.orgMusic: "Medicines" by The Taxpayers

Saubones is a show about medical history, and nothing the hosts say should be taken as medical advice or opinion. It's for fun. Can't you just have fun for an hour and not try to diagnose your mystery boil? We think you've earned it. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy a moment of distraction from that weird growth. You're worth it. that weird growth. You're worth it. Alright, talk is about books. One, two, one, two, three, four. We came across a pharmacy with a toy and that's lost it out. We pushed on through the broken glass and had ourselves a look around.

Some medicines, some medicines that escalate my cop for the mouth. Wow. Hello, everybody and welcome to Saul Bones, a barrel tour of Miscite and Medicine. I'm Rico, who's Justin Nakoroy. And I'm Sydney, Makoroy. Well said, we're tight. It's not quite, not, not, this one's called COVID-19, not quite over. I actually labeled the document where I was trying to put

together notes for this as COVID still with a question mark, like still. I gotta say. I don't know who that's for other than me. I'm the only one who sees the title of this document, but that's what it's called. COVID. The longer it drags on, honestly,

I've kind of feel like we need to ditch the 19 and update it. You know what I mean? COVID-19 is starting to feel a little county 2012. You know, like let's spice it up a little bit. I mean, COVID-2022. Coronavirus is trying to. Yeah, that's true. Coronavirus is, is it means we're helping?

Independently. We're helping. But yeah, we're doing our part. Yeah, to update. I mean, at this point, I don't think that there is enough distinction for there to be a new, I mean, because like, if you had a new name, it would probably denote like a different syndrome, like constellation of symptoms. You know what I mean?

Because like COVID-19, the illness, it notes the symptoms, the sickness, the illness. Does that make sense? Coronavirus is virus. COVID- sickness, the illness. Does that make sense? Coronavirus is virus, COVID-19 is the illness. Yeah. If we called it COVID something else, it would have to be significantly different. But I mean, if we don't do something, I guess we could be headed there.

Yeah. This is why I didn't wanna talk about that. I understand, I understand. We've been struggling with this one. It's like, it's exhausting right now. And you know what, maybe this can just be a space where you hear other people say that this is an exhausting time. I don't know.

I was hoping for some to give you an opportunity for some catharsis, perhaps. Also though, there have been a lot of changes recently. Justin, you've asked me some questions. We've had some listeners writeis, perhaps. Also though there have been a lot of changes recently. Justin, you've asked me some questions. We've had some listeners write in some questions. I've had a lot of family and friends asking me personally, could you help me understand what the heck is happening right now like with the variance, with the CDC recommendations.

School is going to start soon. It doesn't start in the fall for everyone who doesn't know that. There seems to be this belief that we still have all this time before school starts, because school doesn't start till like the actual like seasonal fall. Folks, it's like two weeks. To the Equinox. Yeah, I mean, it's like two weeks. No, that's not when school starts anymore. It's in August.

It probably starts in what August, I mean, it's like, it's wild. It's like, I don't remember., it's like, it's wild. It's like, I don't remember. Pretty soon. Yes. It's soon. I've been trying not to think about it because all the angry emails I've been exchanging with the school board. So I want to, I always like, this show is supposed to be about history. And the reason we talk about COVID so much is because history is happening. Unfortunately, we live in interesting times. And I want to start though with some actual history, history, old history. I don't know why this helped me with context,

but it did, as I started thinking about this. Old history is one of my top two kinds of history. Do you know, Justin, how long ago we theorized the existence of the virus? I don't mean the virus coronavirus. I mean, the entity we think of as a virus. Had to be at least 11, 12. I don't remember who we were talking about a lot when I was born.

I was born 1980. So probably like 90s. Ancient civilizations theorized the existence of like contagions, right? Something that would be a viral particle. And you've got to understand viruses are really small. Oh, God. If you're not aware of this, have you ever wondered how you've never seen them? That doesn't mean they're not real.

They're just like so small. So try to explain it to me. If you give like a really small thing, like a mouse or a grape, it's like even way, way, way, way smaller than that. And it's smaller than other pathogens. Like, and this is why, if you look at like the history of virology, the study of viruses,

you have like someone, like ancient people a long time ago going, I bet that there is something that I don't know the word for it yet, because virus the word wasn't around yet. But like I bet that there is something that I don't know the word for it yet, because virus, the word wasn't around yet. But like, I bet it's really small and it makes you sick and you can catch it from other people. Hmm, that's fascinating. And then nothing it happens until like the 1700s.

Because we can't see it. And basically, it was just a theory that there is something really small that could make you sick. And you could see eventually like bacterial growth colonies. You might not see an individual bacteria, but you could see like, you know, like you've probably seen on Petri dishes, right? Like you could Google an image of a Petri dish

with bacteria on it and you'll see the little globs. They look like little, little, snot balls of different colors. Like, I mean, seriously, they're kind of beautiful, some of them, but. Beautiful snot balls. They are, but, and they're different colors. And you could see that and be like, seriously, they're kind of beautiful. Some of them, but they are, but um, and they're different colors. And you could see that and be like, well, that's something.

Um, you can see fungus, right? Mm-hmm. Look in your fridge. You might have some. We usually do the something that we forgot was in our fridge. So you could see those things, but you couldn't see a virus. And when you think about like the first big step in that process of understanding like what a virus is and then visualizing it eventually and fighting it. You really have to look first at what gender did with the smallpox vaccine. And the wild thing about that is that the first vaccine period, and I know that and we've gone through the history of vaccination. So I know like there was variation first. I don't want to get into all that. But when we talked about the first vaccine using vaccineia against smallpox, we still didn't know what a virus was.

We didn't know smallpox was a virus, what the implications of that were. And we certainly hadn't seen it. Right. The first vaccine was created without that knowledge. I think that's fascinating to think about. You still had not seen the enemy. But you knew that it was there. And the reason that we knew it was there is there's this whole sequence of events even throughout this time period

where Jenner has come up with this vaccine and as we move into like the 1800s where we're beginning to understand the germ theory of disease, right? We're beginning to understand the idea that like, you're sick, I can take a material from you, whether it be like, snot or spit or blood or... I can't get it, say this gross. I can't get it.

You don't know. I can't get it. It's like a gross. I can take that material from you and I can put it in another person and they'll also get sick with the same thing, right? Then I can even take material from that person and put it in another person to make them sick. Like we're beginning to understand that.

We get the idea that there are like goop. There's goop that you can take and put it in another person. Got it. Right. Not Gwyneth Paltrow Goop. No, no, that won't do any good. Miss application of advice from Goop probably could make you sick. Yeah.

To be in infection. Anyway, what we started doing was trying to, um, here's some Goop that's infectious, we think. Let's put it through a filter, a very small filter. Is one of those filters that makes your skin glow or gives you the spark glittery eyebrows? No, that's when you raise your eyebrow, the American flag. Should you tie to your eyes or something?

No, that kind of filters. Well, that kind of filters. That kind of filters. Something that will remove particles, filter. And then the stuff that comes through, let's see if that makes someone sick. Because the idea is that if it's a bacteria or something, you could filter it out,

right? This idea would come into play many, many years later with masks that can filter certain things out and can't filter other things out. But you, what they would find. I said earlier this week, Sydney said, did you hear? Disney's bringing back masks. And in my head, He said, did you hear Disney's bringing back masks. And in my head, I'm so used to Disney like digging through their old IP and finding something they can relaunch. In my head, I was like, masks. What is the remaking the Rocky Dennis movie? Or like mask like the animated TV show when I was a kid,

but we're like, it was vehicles that would transform into other stuff, and then the people would wear a mask to drive the vehicles. I do not know that. Anyway, the point is they were just... No, like the face masks you were wearing for coronavirus. Yeah, it took me way too long.

It was very embarrassing, but I eventually figured it out. So the thing with filters is that they knew that sometimes you passed infectious material through a filter and then put that, the filter stuff, the stuff that had been filtered. You put it into another animal. Let's be honest, a lot of the times we're dealing with animals, not humans in these experiments. And they would still get sick. And it had filtered out all of the conceiv- all the stuff that you had conceived of so far.

It had- you know that filter would have filtered out all the bacteria and germs and crap you knew about. So there was something you didn't know about. That did it. That was in there, that was making people sick. But- and so this is how we started to figure this out. And it wouldn't be until 1892 that we would actually like find the first virus. You know what the first virus we found was?

The first one we were able to like locate a name. Not even take a picture of it. Smallpox? The tobacco mosaic virus. What was it? The tobacco mosaic. It's a plant virus. And it affects plants. It's not a virus. It's a plant virus. It infects plants.

It's not a virus that we get. Tobacco plants get it. Bully fae. It must be a chunky boy, huh? But they isolated. There was the tobacco mosaic virus. Soon after that, the first animal virus is called the foot and mouth virus. This is not hand-footed mouth disease that humans get.

This is totally different. This is something that only non-human animals can get. That was found soon after. And then by 1900, we were able to name the first human virus, a flabby virus called yellow fever. And it's over the next six, so like here we are, like all of human history, we theorize the existence of viruses. Right at the turn of the centuries, 1800 to 1900, Right at the turn of the centuries, 1800 to 1900, the 1800s to the 1900s, we isolate these viruses. And then over the course, and like within 30 years, we're taking pictures of them. By the way, we use an electron microscope

to take pictures of them, which is, it's a really cool, the first description I ever read of like how those things work was in the hot zone, the book about Ebola, that inspired me to become a physician. And like, if you read about how hard it was to photograph a virus, and like I said, they use this electron microscope, which they had to invent in order to see and then take pictures of these viruses.

And they have to create these little like beads of viral material and slice them with diamond knives and then put these tiny sections and look under the specialized microscope. Anyway, all this technology had to be invented before you could see and take a picture of the enemy, the virus. And then what you have by the end of the, like by the end of the 50s, you have vaccines against most of the major dangerous,

especially childhood viruses that are out there. It's that fast. You have technolite, but I think what I'm trying to get to here is you have been building to this for all these hundreds of years where people were talking about and filtering down and getting to there's something we can't see, there's something we can't see. We know it makes people sick. We know how to stop it because we know when you get it once you usually don't get it again so maybe if we

could expose you to it and train your immune system against it, all of this culminates in what seems like this very fast process throughout the 50s, of 40s and 50s, of making these vaccines. And it can seem like that happened really fast, but it didn't, because it was built on hundreds of years of understanding. And I just, I feel like that scope of things, if more people understood that,

would be helpful right now. Because what has happened in the last year, in one the year that it took to go from finding this virus, finding its genome, making a vaccine against it, testing that vaccine, refining that vaccine or multiple vaccines that it is, and then giving it to humans, the basically year that it took, right? It, I mean, it, it seems miraculous. And certainly to Edward Jenner, it would feel miraculous. But when you look at history, when you look at what has brought us to this moment, of course, we can do it this fast, of course, because we have hundreds of years of understanding

that led us to this moment and that allowed us to be prepared, because viruses have been elusive and weird and dangerous and scary as long as humans have been interacting with them. And so we have gotten better and better and better at defeating them, or at least on the science end, because that's only one part of it, right? The science is one piece.

The other part is what all we do with that science. So, anyway, I don't know if that context helps anyone, but that context for where we are right now helps me. I don't know if that speech would help anybody get the vaccine. Yeah. Who's going to take the time to listen? Maybe we could come up with a punchy TikTok version of it. It's like where it's like one person reaches up and they're like, time before we could see

viruses and then they do another kind of dance. And he is that, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, that one. Yeah. Are there some people like that on TikTok? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's an option. I don't know that's not really my thing. Really. Tiktok. I that's not my favorite medium. Honestly, podcasting is better for me.

Let's tell you what I will let's take a break. Take a break. Plants of palettes and we'll come back and talk about how things have been going lately. Yeah, there are a couple of things of current historical events Yeah, there are a couple of things of current historical events. Now that we have traced the human evolution of our understanding and relationship with the virus. The rail as we deep-volve. Let's go.

To the billing department. Let's go. The medicines, the medicines that ask you letabre for the mouse. Hi, I'm Annabelle Gerrrich, and I'm Laura House, and we're the host of Tiny Victories. My Tiny Victory is that I sewed that button back on the day after it broke. We've talked about that little thing that you did that's a big deal to you, but nobody else cares.

Did you get that Guggenheim Genius Award? We don't want to hear from you. We want little bit of Titan victories. My tiny victories are a tattoo that I've added onto this last week. Let's talk about it. My victories that I'm one year cancer free, but my tiny victory is that I took all of the cushions off the couch, pounded them out, put them back, and it looked so great. So if you're like us and you want to celebrate the tiny achievements of ordinary people,

listen to tiny victories. It's on every Monday on Maximum Fund. All right, so we've talked somewhat about the Delta variant of the COVID-19. Continuing, developing story, you were telling me that like literally seconds before we recorded, we had some, you're reading a story about it and what we're understanding. So we've, we've talked before about variants. It is, it was understood from the beginning, I mean, again, from the beginning of our understanding of viruses, the viruses do change over time. Like all things, all things evolve, all things change, especially in, and things change because of pressures from the world around them to change and adapt to continue to survive, right?

Right. So as we become a little better at preventing this infection somewhat better at treating it, I guess you could say it was only natural that it would shift to some extent Right and and change in response So we now have the Delta variant which is becoming the dominant variant of this In multiple places it is not the dominant variant in the US yet, but it is only a matter of time. You may also have heard, I just wanted to throw out there, like I've read some earlier reports of the Lambda variant

as well and some concerns about that. At this point, I don't think we necessarily have a concern that it is worse than the Delta variant, but also similar to the Delta variant, it is more contagious, but it's still really early. If you've heard the whispers of it out there, right now, the thought is that it's not going to out-compete delta, at least at this point. You can't predict the future, obviously, but right now, delta is the big concern.

We knew about delta from the beginning of our, of, of seeing it, that it is more contagious. And as a result, we know that, and this, when it comes to like, do the vaccines work against variants? I think what you have to understand is that there are different definitions of the word work in play. Does Does do the vaccines prevent severe illness and death from COVID-19, including the Delta variant? Yes. Yes. Not 100% no vaccine is 100% but they work extremely well in that if that is your metric. What we are finding is that do the vaccines prevent any infection with COVID-19 Delta variant, not as well. You're still way more protected than you would be if you were, say, unvaccinated, which I can't stress that enough. But what we have slowly learned is that because

the Delta variant is more contagious, you're going to see more breakthrough cases, meaning people who have been fully vaccinated, meaning they've gotten both their vaccines and waited the appropriate amount of time since the second vaccine. You're going to see more breakthrough cases. And what you have to understand is that when you have more breakthrough cases, you also have more unvaccinated, like the spread is more, you have more vulnerable population, right? So you're going to see it spreading faster and you're going to have another wave. This is what is happening.

That wouldn't be so dangerous, perhaps. If it weren't for the fact that one, we still don't have a vaccine approved for children under 12. Just bears repeating that. It's all finished you can. Just keep, you know, because there's a lot of parents that feel like kind of screwed over. Yeah.

Well, you know, I'm going to screw it over, over but also cut like it can feel like gaslighting if you have kids because like everyone's like well everything's opening back up and everything's like there's millions tens of millions people get xx yes and and and the the implications the implications of that are twofold one uh... kids can still get sick, and two, they can spread it. Right. So.

Well, we don't have, I hope, everybody knows where I stand at this point. So I hopefully I can be in, can we call this an environment where I can ask stupid questions. And don't let me forget, I wanna get to the Washington Post story. Do that first. Let me ask my dumb questions. Okay. Though there were some internal CDC documents,

like a slideshow, I think, that was given a probably they say slide show, a PowerPoint. Let's be honest. I know. I know who you people are. You're like me. It was a PowerPoint. Was it blue with white letters? The minor always blue with white letters. But there was a there was a PowerPoint. Was it blue with white letters? The minor always blue with white letters. But there was a slide that showed that the indicated that perhaps the Delta variant is also causing more severe disease is as contagious as chickenpox and basically some sort of presentation that was given to urge the CDC to change their recommendations.

And it's based on data that hasn't been published. So I can't go through that data with you. I don't know what it was. But apparently there have been some studies that have indicated that the thing we didn't think was true about delta that it caused more severe disease, perhaps that's wrong. I don't know, because all of this is based on this Washington Post article that I literally read this morning.

So perhaps it is more dangerous. It's definitely more contagious, definitely more contagious. So everything you thought you knew about how long you could be within six feet of someone. I don't think we know that anymore. I'm not saying we know something else yet. I'm saying we don't know. So because it's going to spread more rapidly, you're going to see among the unvaccinated

population, you're going to see it spreading quickly and a lot of people getting sick, perhaps sicker, and you're going to continue to see severe illness and death. And then among the vaccinated population, while you're not going to see a lot of severe illness and death, you're just not. I'm not saying there will be zero. The no vaccine is 100% effective, but among the vaccinated population, what you are going to see is mild illness, which isn't a huge deal, except that people are going to be mildly ill and not necessarily think they have this. And so perhaps go out and spread it to others who are unvaccinated and at risk for severe disease or death

or children who by default are unvaccinated right now under 12. And you know, it will continue to spread because you won't, your first thought won't be to go get tested for COVID anymore, especially if your symptoms are mild. Mm-hmm. So this is the situation, this is where we are.

This is why the CDC has shifted its guidance. Not because we don't know what's going on, not because people aren't figuring it out, but because the situation changed. Things evolved. And as things change and evolve, if you're good at science, you change and evolve with it. If you're bad, then you just keep saying the same thing no matter what the outcome is. And so we had

to shift advice, the CDC had to shift advice. And that is why recently the CDC came out with a recommendation about universal indoor masking for everyone. That means that if you're vaccinated, if you're indoors, you should wear a mask. Yes. Okay. Can I ask some of the dumb questions now? Yes. Okay.

And then every nose where I stand, okay, I want to say from a, I'm going to talk in terms of public health and statistics for a second with the understanding and I'm going to say this is a preamble that I understand that one, there are people who are immunocompromised for whom this is a very serious situation still. And I understand also that one death to the people that care about a person is too many. Okay, that blanket statement being made.

If you look at vaccination rates for the population, we're at like 50, right? Broadly speaking, now that's, now kid, the under 12 thing is kind of messing up our averages, but you know, it's still like, if you look at fully vaccinated 18 to 24, it's like 43% of the population. Young people, that is where our biggest gap is. Like 18 to 39 is really like the worst percentages. And weirdly, there's like a, it goes to 80, for fully vaccinated, it goes to 80% if you're between 65 and 74.

And then if you're 75 plus, it goes back down to 77. So some people are just going to ride it out. So I guess go for it. My concern is this, if 80% of the population for whom this is the most deadly, right, if they are fully vaccinated, like, even if the rest of the population isn't like, does this get, I mean, we are, I don't know how you sell to people that this is still a very large, like, people wouldn't get on board with some of these guidelines when no one was vaccinated. And people were just dying left and right, right?

How do you, from a public health perspective, convince people that this is still like the kind of danger that we should be taking very seriously and taking these steps and taking these precautions? Do you know what I'm asking? Like, probably speaking like, like, is it like, obviously like, you know, I'm asking? Like, broadly speaking, like, is it like obviously like, you know, any, again, any death is too many. Like, no, like everyone's a tragedy, obviously. Especially at this point when we have a vaccine.

Yes, correct, but there's an element of personal responsibility in that. Like, it's serious for people that have been at my vaccinated. And again, I don't want anybody to get extremely saccharin perished from this disease. But we're broadly speaking, you're a lot, heck of a lot safer if you've had this vaccine. How do you get people on board with, this is something we still need to do, if like the vast majority of people for whom it is very dangerous have been vaccinated. I think that, I think what's hard is that, um, if I can say one more thing, to contextualize this,

If I can say one more thing to contextualize this in America in the last seven days The mortality rate of COVID has been 0.6% So like again I'll say it ten times any death is too many deaths, but I like How do you get people back on board with like this is something we need to take really seriously? I think that there are a couple things Well, first of all if you're asking like the the broader question of how do you convince people? get people back on board with like, this is something we need to take really seriously. I think that there are a couple of things. Well, first of all, if you're asking like the broader question of how do you convince people either to get vaccinated

or wear masks or do anything to take this seriously, I think that question a lot of smart people are asking and trying to answer constantly right now. And I don't know that I'm going to have a novel answer that hasn't been studied and written about 100 times over. No, I, yeah, no. So I think that is a big, that's a big, that's the question, right?

That is the question. I mean, this is one of those things where it's like such a big deal that you have, you almost have to, you just hope somebody is in a room with other smart people, like how do we sell, you know, those rooms exist. I in a room with other smart people. Like how do we sell? I know. Well, those, those rooms exist. I know these rooms, these conversations are happening.

But the problem like, I'm going to give you a hundred bucks. I'm going to give you a hundred bucks. And then he said like, you're not, you're not as smart as I thought you were. If you don't get vaccinated, I don't know that that. I know that's the angle to take. Um, I, I mean, again, I don't know the data on it, but I would guess that's not the best approach. Okay, first of all, what I would say is this.

I don't think that the sort of punitive like we're gonna put masks back on you if you don't get your vaccines. I don't think that's proving to be very effective because it's all become so politicized that it was already seen so politicized. Yes. That it was already seen as a punishment. Like masks were seen as some sort of weird punishment,

but even before, like when it was the only, before vaccines, when the only tool we had was masks and distancing, masks were already seen as like, well, it's just Pelosi wants us masked or whatever it is. And it's like, I don't even, like it was so immature. Yeah. Like the way I felt about it personally., I don't even know, like it was so immature, like the way I felt about it personally. But I don't think that like reinforcing

that they could be used punitively does us any good. Because they're not a punishment. They're an unfortunate necessity. I hate wearing a mask. Yeah, I feel fun. And porcelain, I feel. But I fall apart glasses. I do, I fall apart my glasses.

So it's just a long matter. What I do with those masks, my glasses are fogged up and sometimes and in the hospital By the way, I stopped where I protection even though I have glasses. I still have to wear goggles over that Do you know what it feels like to have foggy glasses and goggles on all day with your mask? I've got these incredible perfect eyes I can't rely on myself anyway So I think that a couple things would be this. One, do you want to wait until it is more deadly to do something? I mean, like that, that is a real, I know that sounds facetious, but like really, part

of the question is, as this changes, we knew it could get worse. We didn't know exactly how it would change, but it's gotten more contagious, that's worse. Perhaps this early leaked document is saying that it is more severe, I don't know. Do we want to wait until it is another polio in terms of children? Do we want to wait for that before we take it seriously?

Like is that the thing? Do you need to see kids dying before you'll take it seriously, or is the threat of that enough? I'd like to reinforce that I was asking those questions rhetorically. Oh, I don't mean you. I don't feel like a little targeted right now.

No, I don't mean you, but I mean like that is one thing to say. Like this thing is changing and it's gonna keep changing period. And we can either get out in front of it or we can wait for the devastation to occur more, and let me say more devastation than has already occurred. The other thing I would say is this isn't just a mass casualty event that we're witnessing. It's a mass disabling event because there are long-term consequences. In ways that we still don't even fully understand.

Yes, to getting COVID for some, not all, but some patients. And that can be true and has been documented to be true in children as well. And in young people. So not just the elderly people who we initially knew were at risk of severe COVID or highest risk. Anyone can get severe COVID. It is just less likely when you're young. And I think like as a parent, I don't understand why our kids don't mind wearing masks.

If it means they get to do things in the world, I can tell you, they're usually pretty happy to go along with it. Yeah, just a sign, they don't understand anything. No, they will adapt. They don't care about masks. And if, if in the entire school, the kids wearing masks prevents one kid from being hospitalized or getting severe COVID or getting complications from COVID, isn't that worth it? I mean, we banned peanut butter from lunches,

because some kid four tables away could inhale the peanut fumes. Like we did that, like certainly we could do this. And peanut butter is delicious. Peanut butter is delicious. But I think that's something. And the other thing I will say that to put to like, I would emphasize,

more and more we're seeing that the conversations that are going to change minds, and I know that there's been a lot of data recently released that says it doesn't matter what you say, you're not gonna change minds for the majority of the unvaccinated, not all. There still is, there's a sliver. It's not as big as I would have hoped.

But the people who do change their minds, it seems to be largely because of family and friends and personal relationships with people who have convinced them to go get vaccinated. It's not me. I wish it were me. It feels very... When I read that, I felt like my hands were tied because I want to use my knowledge and my training and my research and my understanding to help people. And this is one way I feel like I could help people. But in all honesty, if you know someone who is unvaccinated personally, if you have a relationship with them, if you have established trust and friendship,

or you know, it's a family member, like you are in a better position in many ways to talk that person into getting vaccinated than I am. So I'm going to say this is the action item, right? Like if you're, if you're despondent and you have gotten vaccinated yet, like think about like a, like after a, a, a natural disaster, like checking on people like, and especially with that, there's a huge gap in those like younger people. I kind of assumed it was a bunch of like, people in their 50s who, you know, were, were,

were so anti-science that they could not be reached. These are younger people who just don't think it's a problem for them. Like, reinforce these things that said he's saying with a check on people. Like, check on your friends and relatives that make sure everybody you know has been vaccinated. If we all did that, trust me, the numbers would be a lot higher. Like, I don't know anybody in my personal life who has not like, Sydney would be relentlessly counted them.

So. I don't know anybody personally that hasn't gotten vaccinated like in my family friend's circle. I certainly know people who have not been vaccinated in my professional life. And I will say that trying to threaten people or bully people into doing something doesn't work with anything, really, right? Like, it just doesn't. But trying to encourage people,

trying to, and I do think that like personal appeals, personal stories do help, asking the question, why, why didn't you wanna get vaccinated? What is your concern? Because sometimes it's really easy to address other times It's not but like that I Think that's the only thing you can do. I would advocate very strongly if you are in a

Especially in school districts. This is a place where we might actually be able to get some traction I don't think on a large scale, if you're in a state like Florida or Texas, where on a state level, you know, the government has decided we're done with this. We just don't. Oh, I don't think it's completely immovable in West Virginia, but I do think we're, I mean, we're definitely on that end of the spectrum.

But I do think that maybe school boards, you may get a little more traction with because the CDC has come out pretty, I mean, very strongly that everyone in school should wear a mask. Vaccinated or not, period, everyone should wear masks. And the American Academy of Pediatrics has echoed that sentiment.

So, and I think that it is right and wise, and we personally will be looking at another semester starting in virtual school if our county school board does not mandate masks. So, I think that I think that that is a thing you can do advocate. Even if you don't, this is something that we all have a vested interest in. Even if you don't have children writing an email to your local school board and saying that you hope that the school board will follow the CDC and AAP recommendations, it's not a bad thing to do because you're a member of the community and when people who are unwaxing the community get sick,

it spreads. And so it will impact your whole community and maybe you personally. So it does matter. When it comes to a virus like this, it doesn't matter what state you live in or what country you live in or if you have children or not or if you are unvaccinated or not or if you know someone who's at high risk or not, because it's all connected. It all, you get a voice in all of that because all of us are connected, which means everyone should have access to the vaccine. Everybody should be encouraged to get it. Everybody should be masked until we are at a point where the virus isn't spreading.

And we should all be looking out for the vulnerable who cannot yet vaccinated, which right now is everybody under 12. Yeah. They are completely at our mercy. Whatever decisions we make next, they have to live or not by. And maybe be affected by for their entire lives. I mean, we have no idea. Yes.

And obviously this is also true for somebody who can't get vaccinated or someone who has gotten vaccinated, but because they are on immunosuppressant medications or have other immunosortis or whatever, do not respond to the vaccines. These people are also equally dependent on the rest of us to make good choices. There was one other thing, a couple of people have emailed to ask about boosters. At this point, I think the focus really needs to be on getting those, getting people who haven't been vaccinated at all vaccinated. I think that's the bigger focus. I don't think we have enough, the pharmaceutical company Pfizer believes they have enough data

to recommend a booster. I don't think they've applied for that yet. So far, we haven't heard that recommendation come from any other organizations. And I just think at this point, while it is, it may well be that we need a booster, which could be the exact same vaccine you already got, just another dose, or it could be something that's slightly different in response to these new variants. I don't think right now is the moment to go running and demanding that. That day may come, but I think right now the bigger focus has to be on.

We're back to masks. We're back to distancing. And we need people who are unvaccinated to like to help us all out. Yeah. And you can remember, you can reach out to people, reach out to everybody. It's not out of line. You're not out line. Like, this is the way it will happen. Like, there might be people in rooms coming up with plans, but you can act now. You can win somebody over in your life. I guarantee it. And here's the good news that I wanted to close on. I have a ray of hope for you,

Sydney that some people may not be as hard to reach as we may be thinking. You know, there's a perception that some of these people are a hundred percent hardcore, never getting vaccines. They've been some studies to that effect. But I know there's a segment of the population that is a lot more malleable. As we mentioned, Disney Parks announced that they're going back to masking. They had moved away from masking indoors, basically had just had mask on transportation. They're moving back to, and that was a policy

that changed in like late May. I think they got rid of masking and they're bringing it back because of the rise of the Delta variant. And because Florida is an absolute nightmare right now. Sorry, Florida. Sorry, Florida. What West Virginia fields are paying?

Yeah, we're right there with you. But there's some people who say, but when this changes made, there was on some of my blogs, my Disney blogs, there was some feedback to this. And I wanted to share some of the reactions with you. No, no. Just say you know, okay, this is lighter,

is anyhow, I'll light it up. Thank you for helping protect kids who cannot get vaccinated yet. Unfortunately, people cannot follow rules. Yes. Please do hear the indoor mass requirement with the rise of the Delta COVID variant. Our trip is scheduled in late August. Good. I mean, but there's some people who are like, what's happening?

Yeah. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. I'm going in November. Guess no reason to get my second shot now. Was the only getting facts to enjoy my trip. From required to wear a mask side of the way, no need to get my second shot now was only getting Vax to enjoy my trip From required to wear a mask side of the way no need to get this shot. Hey Josh Hey, Josh can we stop the top for a second? Are you telling me that you were only getting okay? For you were telling me that you were only getting vaccinated with your human body You're only getting vaccinated. See when I'm doing our mask intensity Josh Do you remember the episode of you're only getting residency when I'm doing a mask and Disney Josh?

Do you remember the episode of Sobuns we did long ago on World of Warcraft when they had that? Yeah, yeah. What was it called the virus outbreak? The blood virus, I'm like that. I'm gonna think you have a mythic quest, but go ahead. Yes, and so they had the, and it went wrong. And yeah. But they've used it at this outbreak in a game

as a model for how people might respond to a real world outbreak. And in it, people did some really weird things, like intentionally running to get infected or looking to see, and like we're intentionally infecting others, and all these weird things that they were like, I don't know if this would actually happen in real life.

I think what we've seen in the last year is the world of work craft was right. The world of work craft was right. And the behaviors of people in response to this, I mean, we keep calling it this existential threat, as if it's, but it's not, it's quite, like we can understand it, it's right here, it's a thing, it's a virus.

We can look at it, it's just really small, but we know how to look at it now. And we could all work together just like we have over and over again in human history. I was actually trying to close on a fun note and you're really killing my energy right now. You just told me about this guy who's not going to get his second shot because he has to wear a mask on it's a small world. He was only getting it to so he didn't have to wear a mask like Kelly P who said I got vaccinated. So I didn't have to wear a mask at Disney. If you're worried and unvaccinated don't go to Disney. So this is what I'm saying. This is why I think it's a hopeful note. These are people. They only put the vaccine and they're only human body. They put the, no desire to get a vaccine for any reason.

Other than they don't have to wear a mask, it isn't. If those are the stakes, there is a percentage of the population that can be reached. They have not got their vaccines, but something non-meaningless. We can cast in front of them to convince them. There are people who can be swayed. This is what I'm saying.

There are people who can be reached. It's not just Disney people, although I'm saying if Mickey Mouse called them and they were like, I'll give you, oh pal, we'll give you an extra magic at the parks. You can stay longer, huh? You can get your vaccine. If you gave people fast passes again,

they probably would get back. This is so, if you don't live in the US, I am sorry. I'm sorry, this must seem absolutely unhinged. I really, I don't know how to apologize. Although, you know what, a lot of these countries are gonna have their own things. Like I think that, you know, it's interesting, it's an interesting question to wonder about

if I say interesting, like it doesn't have huge ethical ramifications, but would the US be have, like the US rushed to get as many vaccines as it could, right? And sort of like boxed out some other smaller countries to get as much as we could. And then the people didn't wanna take them. If we had let it play out where like other countries got lots of much as we could and then the people didn't want to take them if we had let it play out Where like other countries got lots of doses and we're using it

Do you think there would be less vaccine hesitancy in the US like do you think that if it was if it was harder to get Harder to get or we had seen it for longer in other countries like play out longer and other countries and then I do think I do think there's a little bit of like I mean there's still people who are saying they're just waiting to see, they're waiting to see how other people do. I can't, I just can't comment on that. Maybe that would have made a difference, I don't know. I have heard a lot of people, maybe this is a place you can do some work

other than like advocating personally to your family and friends. I've seen there are still people who aren't against the vaccine on principle. They're worried about side effects, specifically like missing work because of some of the horror stories they've heard from people who had, you know, more severe vaccine reactions. And I saw someone say, but then it occurred to me, I'll miss a lot more work if I get coronavirus. And that's why I got vaccinated.

And I think that's a good point to continue to make to people, I think continuing to make the point, it is free. If you don't have insurance, it doesn't matter. Even if they say bring your insurance card, it doesn't matter if you don't have one, you can go get it anyway, you don't have to have an insurance card. I think making those points,

there still are inroads to be made, in some people, like some communities that are vaccine hesitant because of those sorts of fears. Those are comparable. People who think there are microchips in there, I don't know. There aren't. There aren't. If that helps, there aren't.

Hey, thanks so much for listening to this episode of Solbona's. If you'd like to donate to the Immunization Action Council, you could do so directly. What? Sorry, yeah, the Immunization Action Coalition. Thank you. You could do so directly at immunized.org or you can go to mackereymerch.com when we have a variety and buy a t-shirt about vaccines or a bumper sticker about vaccines, saying that they are safe and effective,

and all the proceeds from those go to the IAC as well. So they are among the smart people in rooms trying to figure out how to get everybody on board with doing the right thing for them and everyone else. I mean, it protects you and your community. Please encourage others to get vaccinated. Please give vaccinated if you're not. Our celebrity doesn't play in when it's a communicable disease. This is a public health crisis.

It is a, the past year has brought us a scientific achievement that is, the only few others have matched in human history, but yet a public health failure on of monumental levels. Which I think, I mean, honest, I don't wanna get off on another topic. Hey, listen, thanks to the taxpayers for these, usually there's some medicines

as the International World Program. And thank you to you for listening. That's gonna do it for us. So until next time, my name is Justin MacRill. I'm Sydney MacRill. And it's always, don't drill a hole in your head. Fumbling cross. Alright!