Scamfluencers - Francois-Marie Banier: The French Connection Part 2 | 156

Episode Date: April 28, 2025

Francois-Marie Banier is facing an uphill battle in French courts when he learns he’s being sued by Liliane Bettencourt’s only daughter, Francoise. When the French media learn of the accusations of financial abuse against the L’Oreal heiress, he becomes the butt of a joke, twisting the L’Oreal slogan, “Because he’s worth it.” But thanks to a nosy butler and 20 hours of secret recordings, a new scandal overtakes Francois-Marie’s melodrama: Mediapart, a scrappy, new newspaper, gets a hold of the recordings and accusations fly, this time sweeping up Nicholas Sarkozy and a web of alleged illegal campaign donations, tax shelters, and new villains in the massive tangle that is the Bettencourt Affair. Be the first to know about Wondery’s newest podcasts, curated recommendations, and more! Sign up now at https://wondery.fm/wonderynewsletterListen to Scamfluencers on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/scamfluencers/ now.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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immerse yourself in the chaos with Wondry+. ["Wondry"] Sachi, what would you do if a personal drama got so out of hand it ended up involving the Prime Minister? I have endeavored for my personal dramas to end up on the Prime Minister's desk. I think I've gotten pretty close. Yeah, that's why honestly I'd be impressed and I wouldn't be totally surprised at all. I think he knows who I am

and I think he doesn't want to admit it. And I understand the impulse. Yeah, if you guys saw each other on the street, he would like avert his eyes. I mean, so would I. So would I. Well, last week we talked about how novelist and photographer Francois-Marie Begnait

became best friends with billionaire L'Oreal heiress Liliane Betancourt. Only Liliane's daughter was not so happy about it. She feels like her inheritance might be at risk. And this week we're going to hear about how this family feud spills into the public sphere in the most French way possible. It's late December 2007 in the suburbs of Paris. Olivier Metzner is smoking a cigar in the backseat of a Jaguar. Olivier is in his late 50s and is one of France's most feared criminal attorneys.

He's got silver hair, glasses, and a face deeply lined from frowning at his legal opponents. Today his driver is taking him to the office of a state prosecutor. We've actually met Olivier before Sachi. He was the lawyer and lover of Alexandre Despallier from our Death Becomes Him episode, but now Olivier's working on one of the trickiest and most sensitive cases of his career. That's actually why he's here today.

The situation is so delicate that he wants to hand-deliver the documents to the prosecutor himself. Olivier sits across from the prosecutor and lays a thick stack of legal documents on the desk between them. He explains the basic facts. A woman thinks her mom is suffering from dementia and being financially abused by a man posing as her friend.

So she's suing the man, a high-profile photographer named François-Marie Bagnier, for the harm he's caused. But what makes this case so sensitive is the victim, Liliane Betancourt, the heiress to the L'Oreal fortune, and the richest woman in the world. Olivier has testimonies from several of the family staff members who all insist that François-Marie is extorting Liliane. With so many accusations and a detailed accounting of the hundreds of millions of dollars

Liliane has given to François-Marie, Olivier thinks he has a slam dunk case. But like most French things, it is complicated. Because Liliane insists she's not a victim. She says Francois-Marie is her best friend. She wants to share her wealth with him. And while some people think she's suffering from dementia, there's no hard proof. Partially because Liliane is refusing medical exams.

This is tough, because I feel like if a bunch of people told me I was nuts and I needed to see a doctor, I would also be like, I'm not seeing that doctor. Yeah, it's really tricky. It's a true gray zone. Well, Olivier leaves a prosecutor's office feeling confident. But what he doesn't know is that his legal dossier is going to ignite one of the biggest, messiest legal fire storms France has ever seen. As the story unravels, he'll find himself investigating

not only a photographer, but also some of France's most powerful politicians. This petty family feud is about to lead to dramatic double crosses that will upend France's political landscape and land more than one person in prison. Looking for the ultimate online casino experience? Step into the BedMGM Casino app,

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James, podcasting from his study and you have to say that's magnificent. From Wondery, I'm Sarah Haggi and I'm Saatchi Cole. And this is Scamfluencers. In part one, Francois-Marie Bagnier and Liliane Betancourt began a decades-long friendship full of art and lavish gifts. But this didn't sit well with Liliane's daughter, leading to a dispute over money, inheritance and power. Now with one of the country's most influential families locked in a standoff, people start to pick sides.

The power struggle inside Lillian's mansion quickly becomes a national scandal, dominating headlines and offending the political order in France. And soon, an opportunistic photographer will be the least of Liliane Betancourt's troubles. I'm calling this Francois Marie Bagné, The French Connection, Part 2. It's January 2008 in the Betancourt mansion outside Paris. 85-year-old Liliane is sitting in bed

when Pascal, the family butler, knocks on her door. He walks in and hands her a letter from her daughter, Françoise. Liliane tears the letter open, and as she starts to read, her jaw drops. In the letter, Françoise details the legal action she's taking against her mother's best friend, the now 60-year-old photographer, Francois Marie Begnais.

But this isn't a simple civil lawsuit. It's a criminal one. And if Francois Marie is found guilty, he could get three years in prison, plus a fine of nearly 400,000 euros. Liliane feels betrayed. Because this isn't just coming from her daughter. Seven family staff members gave witness testimonies supporting Francoise's claims. Now, Lillian's own employees are moving against her.

Lillian takes a deep breath and keeps reading. Francoise, her daughter, writes that Francois-Marie is only pretending to be be Liliane's friend for financial gain. She accuses him of willfully isolating Liliane from her family. She adds that allegedly, a maid recently overheard Francois Marie asking the billionaire to adopt him. And this is what Francoise finds the most concerning. She signs a letter, your daughter who loves you.

Didn't we talk about this adoption in the last episode? Like, did this actually happen between the two of them? Liliane and Francois-Marie both deny that any talk of adoption ever took place. So Liliane is furious. She's known for years that Francois is jealous of her friendship with Francois-Marie. She also knows that some staff members think he's rude, but she doesn't care. He's everything to her.

And regardless of what people think, she still has autonomy over her choices. She has every right to give gifts to a friend who stood by her for 20 years. Liliane goes to her desk and writes a furious reply in her signature green ink. She tells her daughter how much this friendship means to her desk and writes a furious reply in her signature green ink. She tells her daughter how much this friendship means to her, and how much it also meant to

her late husband, Andre. She ends by telling Francoise that, quote, a suit against Francois Marie is a suit against me. In a follow-up letter, Liliane is even more riled up, and she starts making threats. If Francoise moves forward with the lawsuit, Liliane will take back some of the L'Oreal stock she set aside for Francoise and her children. She continues to insist that Francois Marie

is important to her beyond measure, saying, quote, it's thanks to him that I did not remain locked in the conventional milieu that I seem destined to by my situation and fortune. She closes the letter by calling it her final warning. I mean, I guess Lillian doesn't know who to trust. Like everybody wants something from her and she must feel like,

okay, but this is someone who wants something from me, sure, but I enjoy spending time with them and I'm happy to give it to them. Yeah, I feel like it's so complicated and so overblown. But Liliane is not done. She starts another letter, this time addressing it to the prosecutor overseeing the case. She urges him to stop the proceedings,

stating that her daughter is just jealous and that the gifts she's made to Francois Marie are totally reasonable when compared to the size of her fortune, which is around 17 billion euros in 2008. The things she's made to Francois Marie are totally reasonable when compared to the size of her fortune, which is around 17 billion euros in 2008. She also encloses letters from two doctors who agree she's of sound mind. Liliane is determined to prove that her friendship with Francois Marie is healing her, not hurting her.

But even the power of friendship isn't enough to stop an investigation. And soon, Francois-Marie will have a bigger authority to prove his good intentions to, the police. A few weeks after Liliane and her daughter exchanged tense letters, Francois-Marie is lying in bed. He still lives in the building in Paris that Liliane bought for him 14 years ago. And even though it's 6 a.m., the doorbell rings.

At first, he thinks it's a bad dream. He's been having trouble sleeping since Liliane first told him about her daughter's lawsuit a few weeks ago. But then, the doorbell rings again, and a fist pounds at the door. And then he hears a loud voice. It's the police. Still half asleep, Francois-Mar pounds at the door. And then he hears a loud voice.

It's the police. Still half asleep, Francois-Marie opens the door to his apartment. A dozen police officers file in. They're looking for evidence of the gifts Lillian has given him over the years. Francois-Marie can only watch as they rifle through his apartment for 12 hours.

They seize anything that could help their investigation—receipts, personal journals, and all his written correspondence with Lian. By Francois Marie's estimate, they've written thousands of letters over the years. This is like the old world equivalent of my nightmare, which is getting stuck in a lawsuit and all of my texts ending up in a public record search. Except I guess these letters could land them in jail, but I also think my texts could land me in prison. Um, mine couldn't just to be on the record. Yours could. François-Marie likely hasn't seen much of François' since the tense family lunch they both

attended 15 years ago. He knows that she still hates him. François-Marie likely hasn't seen much of Françoise since the tense family lunch they both attended 15 years ago. He knows that she still hates him. Liliane shared details of their arguments over the years. He's had an inkling that the staff dislikes him too. They're always giving him the side eye for things like laying in Liliane's bed with his shoes on and urinating in the flower beds outside the mansion.

Maybe it's not so crazy that they find him rude. But there's one saving grace. Liliane is sticking by him. She's been keeping him in the loop from the moment she learned about the lawsuit herself. Now it feels like it's Francois Marie and Liliane against the world. It's December of 2008, and Liliane is traveling somewhere in the US. We's December of 2008,

and Liliane is traveling somewhere in the U.S. We're not sure where, but I'm sure she's staying in the fanciest hotel room in town. When she wakes up, it's to her worst nightmare. The police report on her financial relationship with Francois Marie has leaked, and it's on the front page of French news magazine,

Le Pointe. Investigators have discovered that between 2001 and 2007, Liliane gave Francois Marie gifts valued at nearly 1 billion euros. Things like artwork, cash, and real estate. She's also made him the beneficiary of several life insurance policies. The media is having a field day and having fun making L'Oreal related puns with headlines like, because he's worth it.

And they're including every little detail, the many gifts, the mother-daughter tension, and Liliane's insistence that she's sound of mind. Francoise is painted as a jealous, power-hungry daughter, Francois Marie as a conniving crook, and Liliane, a baddie old woman with so much money she doesn't know what to do with it. No one quite knows how it leaked,

but the report is everywhere. Even international outlets are reporting on it. What's so interesting about the coverage of this case is that nobody is like the good guy. Like, they don't think that her daughter is trying to protect her from this scam artist. They think that she is like stupid for not knowing how to keep track of her money. Like, there are people don't seem to feel like anybody is worth any empathy in this

story. I know it's really like one of those things where you really can't believe it's gotten to this point. And how could there possibly be a winner in any of this? Hmm. Well, Liliane immediately jumps into action. She does an interview with the French newspaper Le Journale de Dimanche,

and takes this opportunity to make some direct digs at her daughter. In one interview, she tells reporters that Francoise is a deeply jealous woman and that her legal actions are quote, sheer meanness. Can you read the last quote from this article? Yeah, she said, quote, I don't see my daughter anymore and I don't wish to. For me, my daughter has become something inert. Oh, God. I inert. Oh, God. I know.

Ugh, moms! It's so sad. So mean. I find it just so insane to hear a mother talk about her daughter like this. Yeah. All over some guy. Some gay guy. Yeah, it's truly depressing. And the way Liliane sees it,

her daughter is twisting reality to avoid sharing the L'Oreal fortune. Liliane hates being the center of attention in the press, and she's eager for this whole thing to die down. But before long, there'll be a second, bigger leak, and nothing can prepare her for the backlash that will follow. It's May 2009, five months after the details of the Francois Marie investigation were leaked to the press.

In the Betancourt mansion, Pascal Bonfoy, the family butler, is preparing a tray of snacks and drinks for Liliane's upcoming meeting. Pascal is handsome with graying hair and dark brown eyes. Pascal has been working as the family butler since 1989, a solid 20 years now. But today, he's doing things a little differently.

As Liliane prepares to meet with her financial advisor, Pascal stocks a tray with lemon slices and a cold bottle of Perrier. He wheels the cart into the living room, and as he's setting up the spread, he sets a small, felt-covered item on a nearby bureau — a recording device. Pascal cares deeply about protecting the family that has employed him for so long. He doesn't trust Francois Marie, and he's noticed that the investigation is stalling. So he figures he can help by secretly recording

all of Lilian's meetings until she says something damning about her so-called friend. I want to point out that this is illegal. Franz has strict laws about the invasion of privacy, but Pascal figures it's worth the risk. It seems absurd to me that this guy is so loyal to this family, to this rich family, that he's like, I'm gonna put in place

all these kind of extravagant steps to do something illegal because he wants to, I guess, protect the wealth of the family. Yeah, it's an insane mindset to think this is normal. You're a butler for a woman for 20 years. She is the richest woman in the world, and you care so much about her wealth that you're willing to break the law

and try and prove that someone's using her. In my mind, I'm just kind of like, let these rich people fight. Anyway, as Pascal rolls his cart into the room, he works hard to keep his hands from shaking. He knows that if he gets caught, he'll lose this job. Since the investigation started, Liliane's fired staff members who testify against Francois-Marie,

and she's wary of her remaining staffers. But he needs to do this for Liliane. Pascal pours the financial advisor a perrier and drops a sugar cube into Liliane's tea. And then he leaves as the recorder starts to roll. Pascal starts doing this for as many of Liliane's meetings as he can. She doesn't often have formal sit downs

with Francois-Marie himself. They usually hang out in her bedroom where she's most comfortable. So Pascal just has to hope that eventually, François-Marie will come up in one of these conversations. Finally, in May of 2010, a year into making these recordings, Pascal manages to record a conversation

between the billionaire and the photographer. And he decides he has what he needs. He hands over 20 hours of recording to Francoise, who allegedly had no idea that the butler had been doing his own espionage. Pascal simply says that she should do whatever she wants with them and hopes they're helpful. It seems to me like this woman does not have anyone around her that she can really trust.

Because even if, you know, the butler is doing something that's like in service to her or he's being loyal to her, it's still going against what she has said she wants. There's no way this will end well for him, but Pascal is proud of himself. He's taken matters into his own hands, and it's his last act as the Betancourt family butler. After 20 years of service, he's leaving his post. He knows that Francoise is sending the tapes to a lawyer, and he believes Francois Marie will finally be caught.

Pascal is convinced he did the right thing, but what he captured on the tapes goes far beyond Lillian's relationship with Francois-Marie. And it won't be long until these private, illegal recordings make their way into the world. And when this happens, the Betancourt family will long for the days when Francois-Marie was their biggest problem. was their biggest problem. Every successful business starts with an idea. And on the best idea yet, we're obsessed with those light bulb moments. Like how a bored barista

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He has a thick head of dark hair, a bushy mustache, and a sly grin. When his phone rings, he recognizes the voice of a familiar source. The source has a huge scoop. Secret recordings that might be of interest to Edwey's reporters. The prosecutor and investigators just received them. Would Edwey like a copy? I can't think of a phone call I'd want more as a journalist. I would get such a boner from this phone call.

You know in cartoons when they trap someone by like putting something, like it's like, let's stick with the box and then it's like, recordings, yeah, that's how we'd get you. This is a bunch of leaves over an endless hole, correct? Well, Edwee feels the same way. And before long, Edwee and his colleagues are combing through more than 20 CD-ROMs

with hours of Liliane Betancourt's private meetings. Edwige's already aware of all the drama surrounding the heiress and the photographer, and he's not particularly interested. It seems more like a petty mother-daughter feud fit for tabloids and gossip rags. As an investigative news outlet, Media Part is more interested in exposing shady dealings

with France's top politicians. Still, L'Oreal is the world's biggest cosmetics group and France's most profitable company. And the Betancors have significant political ties. And we and his colleagues listen to the recordings just in case there's something interesting. And soon, the whole newsroom is buzzing. Because this is way more than a tabloid story.

They've just been handed the most explosive political scoop in recent history. Edwi listens as Liliane's lead financial advisor, Patrice de Mesquert, talks to her about offshore bank accounts. Lillian and Patrice seem to be conspiring to hide 100 million euros in Swiss bank accounts to avoid being taxed. And, according to the tapes, France's finance minister, Eric Verth, seems to have been bribed to turn a blind eye to it all.

As a budget minister, Verth's whole job is basically to be the country's accountant. He should be making sure that nothing fishy is going on. blind eye to it all. As a budget minister, Vert's whole job is basically to be the country's accountant. He should be making sure that nothing fishy is going on. But it seems like he got a little too cozy with Liliane and her fortune. The tapes imply that, in return for ignoring their tax evasion,

Patrice hired Vert's wife to work on Liliane's staff as another personal financial advisor. In one recording, Patrice even says outright that he hired her as a favorit de vert. This is a huge conflict of interest. The tax watchdog for France and a financial manager for France's biggest taxpayer shouldn't even be friends, let alone married. But there's more. The tapes also include plans to make huge donations

to France's top governing politicians, including President Nicolas Sarkozy. When you put it all together, it sure seems like a political party is taking bribes and donations in return for not looking too closely at a billionaire's taxes. I love this, Sarah. This feels like the exact right conclusion that should happen,

because you can't get your little family squabble sorted. This is all because she was friends with a rude gay guy. It is insane. I love it. And most alarmingly, there are plenty of moments in the tapes where Patrice speaks to Lillian as though she's a child. She often seems lost,

like she doesn't really understand what's going on. These moments signal that Lillian isn't always as sharp and present as she is in her press appearances. The butler was trying to find instances of abuse, and it seems like he found them from her money manager, not her longtime best friend. Oh, dark. I guess it makes sense.

It did seem like somebody had to be financially abusing her in some way, just because she was too moneyed and too old for that not to be happening, but I guess it makes sense that it is quite obviously the person handling her money. Yes, and Edwee knows that what he has on these tapes is huge. MediaPart is a small outlet, it's entirely subscriber-funded, and Edwee only launched it two years ago.

This story could change his and his staff members' lives, but he knows he's not the only journalist who got these tapes, so he has to act fast. After spending a few days poring through the recordings, they're finally ready. The media part journalists hold their breath as they hit publish, and the story goes live on their website, detailing the juiciest parts of the butlers' tapes. They move so quickly that the story is public before investigators have even listened to the tapes themselves.

The story spreads like wildfire across France. Within hours, it's getting picked up by just about every news outlet in the country. And after years of having the French media dissect his relationship with Liliane, Francois Marie is about to watch them shift their focus onto some bigger targets. Just hours after Edwige and his colleagues hit publish,

62-year-old Francois Marie is walking home, camera and hand. For decades, he's taken long walks to photograph strangers and buildings. It helps him unwind, which he desperately needs right now. In just two weeks, the long-awaited trial that Francois initiated against him a few years ago will finally take place. Since the initial panic a few years ago,

Francois Marie's life has mostly returned to normal. He and Liliane still hang out all the time, though now they tend to dine at Lilian's mansion instead of their usual lavish restaurants and cafes. And Francois Marie's work is still very much in demand. Just last year, he photographed the cover of Vanity Fair. It was a giant story with a big accompanying photo shoot all about his good friend, Johnny Depp.

Oh, Beetlejuice. Remember, this Depp. Ugh, Beetlejuice. Remember, this is 2010. Yeah, it was like right bumping up against it, I guess. Yes. He was still unshowered. Yeah, he was still wearing all those scarves,

so disgusting. So many necklaces. When Francois Marie walks into his apartment, the phone is ringing. It's Liliane. She's so panicked, he's barely able to register what she's saying to him. Finally, he makes out her plea for him to turn on the news. Francois-Marie clicks on the TV and immediately hears Liliane's name. He's certain they'll start talking about his upcoming court appearance.

But to his surprise, he's not even mentioned. That morning, Media Part published their first article about the butler's tapes along with part of the audio, and France is reeling. While Suamri listens in shock as journalists outline what was discovered in the recordings, Nini Anne has been hiding more than $100 million in two undeclared Swiss bank accounts. And she hasn't been paying taxes on an island she owns in the Seychelles. Given the size of their fortune,

the Betancour should have gotten a routine audit every three years, a French norm to make sure the accounting is sound. But they haven't been audited in 15 years. But what's probably much more upsetting to Francois Marie is that everyone is talking about Liliane's mental capacity. Because despite her insistence that she's 100% lucid, she actually does sound lost and confused on the tapes.

She often doesn't remember large purchases or donations she's told she's made. And in the recordings where Patrice encourages her to evade taxes, it's not clear if she understands what she's agreeing to. In one particularly damning recording, he tries to talk her into buying him a yacht for over 1 million euros. Sarah, this strikes me as another example of a very, very, very, very, very rich person

surrounded by money managers who do not want to take care of them and will lead them down a path where they are defrauding the government or the IRS or somebody else. And, you know, these people are also trying to rip them off in one way or the other. Yeah, it's really depressing. And it's worth noting that Liliane repeatedly refused to undergo neurological exams, so it's hard to know for sure what her state of mind or mental capacity was. But from these tapes, it's clear that she's not as present as she claims.

Doctors will officially conclude that she's suffering from Alzheimer's disease, but that her symptoms didn't start until 2006. By that point, she'd already given many of her biggest gifts to Francois Marie, but she did initiate a few important things starting in 2006, like writing Francois Marie into her life insurance policies and into her will. It's tricky, because I feel like she probably would have done

that no matter what her mental state was because she loved him so much, but because she clearly, at the end of her life, was starting to lose some mental acuity. It's so dark and feels manipulative, and it's not even clear if it really is. Yeah, it's definitely a gray area, and it is ironic that Liliane was so worried

about being seen as out of her mind that she refused to seek medical help. And that has cast so many of her late-in-life decisions into doubt. Now, it might be too late to ever know what she really wanted. Mmm. And as Francois Marie listens to this breaking news,

the thing that strikes him the most is the fact that they're not talking about him at all. While these recordings were made solely to prove his guilt, they end up uncovering a political scandal beyond anything he was ever accused of. Over the coming days, Media Part publishes more of the recordings, along with a 500-page

transcript of the whole collection. So much evidence comes to light that Francois Marie's trial gets postponed indefinitely to give officials time to sift through it all. And soon, another ex-employee will bring even more accusations to light. The woman who knows exactly how money moves through the Betancourt mansion. It's July 2010, just a few weeks after the Butler's recordings were first leaked, and Claire Thibault, Liliane's former accountant, has been watching this all go down from the sidelines. Claire was one of the staffers

Liliane fired a couple of years earlier for testifying against Francois Marie. Claire feels vindicated. She was the first person to tell Francoise that Lillian was being financially abused, and it must be satisfying to see that she wasn't wrong. This whole story, dubbed the Betancourt affair, has been in the news nonstop since the first recordings leaked. And today, Claire is going to drop another bomb.

In an interview with Media Part, Claire says that a few years ago, Lillian's financial advisor asked her to withdraw 150,000 euros in cash to fund Nicolas Sarkozy's presidential campaign. This might sound like business as usual to Americans, but individual campaign contributions in France are not meant to exceed 4,600 euros annually. So it is a problem. Also, Claire claims that Sarkozy and the Labour minister, Eric Wirth, were regular visitors to the Betancourt mansion during Sarkozy's election year, and they'd often leave with envelopes of cash,

all while Liliane was too frail and confused to know what was going on. The article sends shockwaves through France, but Claire's credibility immediately comes into question. When police follow up on her explosive claims, she immediately backtracks, saying she can't remember exactly what happened. It's also revealed that Claire and Liliane's daughter Francoise made a pact a few years ago. Since Claire was risking her job by speaking out against Francois Marie,

Francoise offered to step in and help financially if she lost work. So when Liliane did fire Claire, Francoise cut her a check for $515,000. Claire insists the money was just to help her speak out against abuse without fear. But to the public, it kind of looks like Francoise bribed Claire into talking to the police to strengthen her court case. Uh, it sure does.

Not looking good. This is one of those situations where both things can low key be true. Politically, it is already a sensitive time in France. The world is still recovering from a financial crisis, and learning about a billionaire illegally passing that much money to the president lights a match under the French public. Even though Claire retracts her statements, the damage is done.

An official investigation is launched against Nicolas Sarkozy and his approval ratings tank. The public and investigators have their pitchforks ready, and they'll take aim at everyone involved in this scandal, including its first target, Francois Marie. involved in this scandal, including its first target, Francois Marie. It's a July evening in 2010, and Francoise is probably sitting at home with her family.

Lately, all she's been able to think about are the headlines swirling about her mother. None of this would have happened if it weren't for those stupid tapes. It must feel like she's completely lost control over the situation. All she wanted was to keep Francois Marie away from her family.

Instead, she launched a massive political scandal with her mother at the center. But the tapes did establish that her mom isn't mentally fit to control her massive fortune. And Francois sees an opportunity. She wants to place Liliane under legal guardianship, meaning she would no longer have control over any of her own finances. Francoise actually tried to do this once before, but her request was rejected.

Now, with the proof on these tapes, she has new evidence for the courts. Just then, Francoise's phone buzzes. She learns that her mother put out a press release addressing the new guardianship attempt. Sachi, we've translated some of it. Could you please read it? Yeah, it says, It is despicable relentlessness on the part of someone who claims to protect me. My daughter could wait patiently for my death instead of doing everything to hasten it.

This is depressing. This is really sad. I don't even know what I would do in this situation because it's clear that her mom is being taken advantage of in some contexts, but it's clear she doesn't want her daughter's help. Yeah, both of these women have so much pride, and now that their fight has ignited a huge political scandal, it seems impossible for them to just talk it through and resolve it like normal people.

Yeah. Well, 10 days later, Francoise is devastated to learn that the courts denied her request. Liliane is still refusing to sit for any neurological or medical exams. Without them, the courts don't feel like they have the proof they need to grant Francoise's request. But Francoise does get some good news not long after.

Her mother removes Francois Marie from her will. He'd been set to receive over 1 billion euros, but now he's back to nothing. Oh, well that feels sudden. Yeah, Francoise's jaw drops when she reads about Francois Marie's removal. She's shocked by this move, and the fact that Liliane has talked about it to the press. In her old age, it seems like Liliane's getting messy.

In a magazine interview, she says that she did feel manipulated by her friend, that he's greedy, and that he's never satisfied with what he has because of a quote, ancestral deformity, seemingly referencing his Jewish roots. Oh. Remember, she was part of a low key Nazi family, had a bit of a husband who was into Nazis. Right. So that prejudice runs extremely deep. Pretty deep.

Okay, well that'll do it, I guess. Yeah, oh man. Liliane's change of heart about her friend of more than 20 years seems sudden and strange, especially since they were still talking right before Liliane cut him out of her will. Maybe, looking back on things, she sees the friendship differently now.

Maybe her legal team somehow convinced her that Francois Marie was a crook. Or maybe this is a symptom of worsening dementia. Throughout the whole affair, the French public has largely sided against Francois Marie and with Liliane's daughter. But Liliane isn't picking sides. It seems like she's fed up with them both.

She says, quote, I no longer want to make an effort for them. They don't make an effort for me. But Francois refuses to let the story end here. A month after Liliane spoke to the press, Francois files for her mother to be placed under legal guardianship again. And this time, Liliane has had enough.

She strikes back with her own legal action and countersues Francoise, saying that putting someone through all of these legal proceedings is a form of psychological abuse. But this legal action seems to fizzle out quickly. Because in December of 2010, the saga gets yet another plot twist. Liliane and Francoise put out a joint press release announcing that they've made a truce. After three long years of wrangling in court, mother and daughter drop all the suits and countersuits. Francoise also agrees to finally stop trying to get Liliane placed under legal guardianship. And Liliane agrees to stop seeing Francois Marie for good. I don't know about you, but I am feeling the whiplash.

This is confusing. Why all of a sudden did they reunite? Well, the peace doesn't last long. Six months later, Francoise goes back to court and asks for her mother to be placed under guardianship. Again, old habits die hard. Now I get it. That makes more sense, actually. This is their love language.

Yeah, this is just how they talk. It's just being like, let's sue each other. Yeah, I get it. Well, in response to the suit, Liliane calls her daughter fundamentally unhappy and, quote, a bit psychologically disturbed. She tells the press that she's terrified of losing her remaining autonomy. Still, Francoise is convinced that this is what's best. In October of 2011, the judge finally passes down a ruling,

and Francoise is ecstatic. Liliane, now 88 years old, is officially being placed under guardianship. Francoise and her sons will now control all of Liliane's wealth and property. After turning her family's squabble into a public scandal, Francoise has finally won. Her inheritance is secure.

Now, the courts will have to figure out how to prosecute everyone who seems to have financially abused Liliane Betancourt at her lowest, from Francois Marie to members of parliament. And everyone is about to have their day in court. And everyone is about to have their day in court. Last year, long crime brought you the trial that captivated the nation. She's accused of hitting her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O'Keefe with her car.

Karen Reed is arrested and charged with second-degree murder. The six-week trial resulted in anything but resolution. We continue to find ourselves at an impasse. I'm declaring a mistrial in this case. But now the case is back in the spotlight. And one question still lingers. Did Karen Reed kill John O'Keefe? The evidence is overwhelming that Karen Reed is innocent.

How does it feel to be a cop killer, Karen? I'm Kristin Thorn, investigative reporter with Law & Crime and host of the podcast, Karen, The Retrial. This isn't just a retrial, it's a second chance at the truth. I have nothing to hide. My life is in the balance and it shouldn't be. I just want people to go back to who the victim is in this. It's not her.

Listen to episodes of Karen, The Retrial, exclusively and ad free on Wondery Plus. In the early hours of December 4th, 2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of Midtown Manhattan. This assailant starts firing at him. And the suspect. He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione.

Became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history. I was meant to sow terror. He's awoken the people to a true issue. Listen to Law and Crime's Luigi, exclusively on Wondery+. You can join Wondery+, the Wondery app, Spotify or Apple podcasts.

I feel like I, like to. It's May of 2015, five years after the Betancourt affair tapes were first released to the press and Francois Marie is in a grand courthouse in Bordeaux. He's wearing a dark suit as he waits for the judge to read his verdict. He's 67 years old now, and he's tired. Francois Marie hasn't seen or heard from Lilian since she publicly denounced him as greedy and money hungry. He's been left to mourn his decades-long friendship, wondering what caused Lilian to turn her back on him.

Francois Marie isn't the only one on trial today. He's one of a handful of people accused of financially exploiting a sick and confused old woman. Though the court struggled to access Lilian's medical records for years, they officially conclude that she's been suffering from dementia and Alzheimer's. The charges against former president Nicolas Sarkozy will already drop due to lack of evidence. But the scandal probably didn't help him in his presidential re-election campaign. He ends up narrowly losing.

In the courthouse today, former Budget Minister Eric Wirt is found not guilty of abuse. The other defendants on trial include lawyers and accountants who worked closely with Liliane and her fortune. Eight of them are found guilty, including Francois Marie. I guess it's not entirely surprising that all these people were found guilty. I am a little surprised that the budget minister squeaked on by without anything. That to me is so insane. The judge also says that Francois Marie exerted psychological and moral control over his beloved friend. He's sentenced to three years in prison

and is forced to pay a fine of 350,000 euros plus 158 million euros in damages to Liliane. That's a lot of money for a billionaire. She was happy to buy these people gifts. I know, I'm sure there are moments where it crossed the line, but that just seems so insane. And Patrice, the financial advisor behind the whole mess, is sentenced to three years in prison

and ordered to pay a fine of more than a quarter of a million euros. By this point, the public has largely lost interest in the Betancourt affair. But people celebrate that Francois MarieMarie got a maximum sentence. They see it as justice. Liliane never personally comments on her former friends in confidence going to jail for their crimes. It's unclear if she was even aware of the trial.

In a statement, her lawyers thanked the employees who stood up against the abuse she was facing. Francois-Marie is devastated. He immediately appeals, insisting on his innocence. In interviews, he claims to be a victim who's been unfairly smeared. And he still speaks highly of Liliane, saying that she's a remarkable woman

who's been the victim of insurmountable greed, just not his own. But in France's court of public opinion, his case is likely closed for good. It's January of 2016, more than six months after the Betancourt sentences were handed down. But the legal drama isn't over. In a courtroom in Bordeaux, six people are on trial.

But not for abusing Liliane Betancourt. They're in trouble for whistleblowing. Today, five journalists, including Edoui, are standing trial for their part in releasing the Betancourt tapes to the public. They're facing charges for violating personal privacy, though they argued they only released information French civilians had a right to know.

The other person standing before the court is Pascal, Liliane's former butler, for making the recordings in the first place. France has strict laws surrounding the invasion of personal privacy, which Pascal breached by making the tapes and Media Part breached by publishing them. Pascal recorded Liliane's private conversations

even after learning that it was illegal to do so. In the end, they did end up saving Lilian from some serious financial abuse, but now he's facing a year in prison for knowingly breaking the law. Pascal and the journalists argued that what they did was important, that it should be celebrated, not punished.

And it turns out the judge agrees with them. They're all acquitted. It's a huge win for press freedom and nosy French butlers. I agree with that. That's good. You shouldn't get in trouble for whistleblowing. No, even if you don't know what you're whistleblowing, you shouldn't get in trouble for doing it.

You should. I think tattling should be a saved occupation. Well, Pascal, Edouige, and the other defendants claim that making Liliane's drama public was for her own good. But now that her daughter is in charge, Liliane is out of the spotlight. And some people are wondering if Liliane's so-called protectors were really acting in her best interest,

or if her guardianship is less like a sanctuary and more like a prison. or if her guardianship is less like a sanctuary and more like a prison. It's late September, 2017, and a group of well-dressed people are gathered at an old stone church in Paris. The group includes notable politicians and socialites, all here for the funeral of Liliane Betancourt.

Liliane lived a long life, passing away at 94. But there's a lot of speculation about whether or not the last few years of her life were happy ones. After Lillian was placed under guardianship, many of her friends and former staff members never heard from her again, even when they reached out. Old friends believed that Lillian spent the last years of her life isolated and alone,

and they blame Francoise for taking away both her freedom and her social life. That's tough because if she was having Alzheimer's or dementia at the end of her life, you know, she was maybe not a great hang. And a lot of people, when they have those diseases, they can't reminisce, they can't socialize, they struggle with a lot of people, when they have those diseases, they can't reminisce, they can't socialize, they struggle with a lot of human interaction. It's unclear if it's her daughter doing that or if it's the illness that's isolated her.

I know, I could really see it both ways where it's like, you know, you wanna see your friend and also her daughter maybe wanting to protect her dignity. At the time of her death, Liliane was the richest woman and the 14th richest person on earth. She was worth an estimated 33 billion euros. And now, Francoise's.

As of March 2025, Francoise's worth over 75 billion euros. Francois Marie is notably absent from the funeral, which is understandable since he probably wouldn't feel very welcome. Francois Marie is notably absent from the funeral, which is understandable since he probably wouldn't feel very welcome. About a year earlier, Francois Marie won his appeal. His fines were canceled and he didn't serve any time in jail. Now, he seems to be living a relatively quiet life. In 2023, he had a gallery show for some of his photos

in New York City, but no matter what he does, he's still best known for the scandalous friendship and the fallout that followed. In the end, it's hard to know who's to blame for everything that happened to Liliane Betancourt. Maybe Liliane said it best in the 1987 interview that forged her friendship with Francois Marie. When there's money involved, people go insane. All righty. Well, Sachi, being rich sounds like it sucks sometimes. It's crazy that this all started with just a guy taking a photo

and being like, mm, change your outfit. And her being like, okay, you nagged me into a friendship. That's how I do it. It's also interesting because these two were friends, but became in many ways life partners. You know, like if their transaction was him spending time with her and making her feel loved and human, and in turn she was giving him more money than was reasonable to many people.

Even if he was, like, a shitty person and unsavory and mean to people, I just don't know if he necessarily committed, like, a real crime. Yeah, I don't know that he did either. Ultimately, Lillian gets to decide what kind of monetary value she wants to attach to her friendships in the same way that we do when we marry someone and we put them in our will or there's a life insurance policy for them. She made that decision and I think she made it probably when she was mostly well.

And so I don't know that it's any different, but it's a version of wealth that you and I can't get our heads around. I think it's tricky too because it's not like her daughter wasn't profiting from her financially either like there are no Figures in this story who aren't getting money from Lillian So it's hard to know like oh should he have taken a step back or should she have taken a step back? And I just don't think we're ever really gonna know because I think Unfortunately in this one the scam scam is, like, being wealthy and not knowing who your friends are.

I mean, money obviously does complicate friendships in any scenario, but richest woman in the world, even if she outright gave him $10 million... Mm-hmm. -...drop in the bucket... Yeah. It's a drop of a drop. Yeah.

It's an atom in a bucket of water, you know? I guess the issue is, is that we think that more people should have scammed her out of the money and not just, like, the two to five. Yes, absolutely. 500,000 people should have been scamming her of her money. That would have been not a scam somehow. Yeah, it is crazy to think about this dispute with your mom, who's the richest woman in the world,

becoming public because she has a best friend you hate, who you think is taking advantage of her. But the added layer of it turning into a political scandal that involves the president and will influence an upcoming election is just so insane to me. I feel like I would just want to go into hiding forever. Yeah, I can't imagine private arguments

I'm having with my family... ...impacting global politics. And, like, the call coming from inside the house, like it being someone I know who's also revealing all of this. What is your lesson, Sacha? Quickly. I think my lesson is I need richer friends, because none of them are giving me shit. I'll say that. I quickly? I think my lesson is I need richer friends. Because none of them are giving me shit.

I'll say that. I don't know what my lesson here is. I just think money's bad. Money's bad. Money's bad, and it's scary. And maybe we should just like get rid of it or print more, whatever makes the most sense, you know? Yeah.

Yeah. print more, whatever makes the most sense, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Loving scam influencers, get exclusive episodes and early access to new ones all ad free on Wendree Plus. Join now in the Wendree app, Apple podcasts or Spotify. Before you go, help us out by taking a quick survey at wendree.com slash survey.

This is Francois-Marie Bagnier, The French Connection Part Two. I'm Sarah Hagy. And I'm Saatchi Cole. If you have a tip for us on a story that you think we should cover, please email us at scamfluencers at Wendree.com. We use many sources in our research.

A few that were particularly helpful were The Betancourt Affair, The World's Richest Woman and The Scandal That Rocked Paris by Tom Sancton, The Betancour Affair, Parts 1 and 2 in Vanity Fair, and Media Parts Reporting. Gabrielle Jolet wrote this episode. Additional writing by us, Sachie Cole and Sarah Hagge. Olivia Briley is our story editor. Fact-checking by Lexi Peery.

Sound design by James Morgan. Additional audio assistance provided by Augustine Lim. Our music supervisor is Scott Velazquez for Freeson Sync. Our managing producer is Desi Blaylock. Our senior managing producer is Callum Flews. Ginny and Cornelo and Stephanie Gens are our development producers. Our associate producer is Charlotte Miller.

Our producer is Julie Magruder. Our senior producers are Sarah Enney and Ginny Gloom. Our executive producers are Jenny Lauer-Beckman, Marshall Louie, and Erin O'Flaherty for Wondery. At 24, I lost my narrative, or rather it was stolen from me. And the Monica Lewinsky that my friends and family knew was usurped by false narratives, callous jokes, and politics. I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again.

So I think listeners can expect me to be chatting with folks both recognizable and unrecognizable names about the way that people have navigated roads to triumph. My hope is that people will finish an episode of Reclaiming and feel like they filled their tank up. They connected with the people that I'm talking to and leave with maybe some nuggets that help them feel a little more hopeful. Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Reclaiming early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts.