Scamfluencers - Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker: The God Fraud | Part 2

Episode Date: December 25, 2023

In the second part of this two-part epic, Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker go their separate ways and carve out very different paths — but they both still love being in the spotlight. Tammy becomes a fixture on daytime and reality T.V., while Jim gets out of prison and goes right back to televangelizing. This time, he’s embracing a whole new scheme: shilling products for the apocalypse. In the second part of this two-part epic, Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker go their separate ways and carve out very different paths — but they both still love being in the spotlight. Tammy becomes a fixture on daytime and reality T.V., while Jim gets out of prison and goes right back to televangelizing. This time, he’s embracing a whole new scheme: shilling products for the apocalypse.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Wondery. Wondery. Wondery. Wondery. Wondery. Wondery. the tragically ludicrous, the ludicrously tragic. Yeah, I mean, I always go back to that Carly Coss tweet before she goes to the Matt Gala where she's holding up the mirror and going, looking camp right in the eye, only to later show she did not dress camp at all.

Like, no, terrible outfit, terrible outfit. And to me, that was camp. Well, I've always thought of you as my favorite camp figure. You're like my Barbara Streisand, like your notoriously difficult and everyone on the show is afraid of you. And that's why they pay me the big box. Well, as ever, I asked because today we're looking at how two people transform themselves after public failures, namely how one of them turn towards the tragic and another towards

the ludicrous. public failures, namely how one of them turned towards the tragic and another towards the ludicrous. Put on your best non-water proof mascara, Sarah, it's time we finish the ballad of Tammy Fay. It's October 5, 1989 in Charlotte, North Carolina. It's been two months since Jim Baker's trial started. The trial has been plagued by delays, including a devastating hurricane. But now, it's finally come to an end.

After two days of deliberation, the jury has made this decision. The atmosphere around the courthouse is tense. Reporters press up against the door, elbowing to get enough space for their microphones and cameras. A few of Jim's followers hold up giant signs with supportive messages. Then, Jim arrives. He's 49 years old with dark graying hair and oversized E.D.'s glasses.

He holds Tammy's hand as they walk through the crowd. She's also in her late 40s, and she's wearing a cherry red pantsuit over a polka-dotted hertleneck that matches her bracelets. Her short blonde hair is spiked up like a foe hawk. And of course, there's all that mascara layered on like she's got a sponsorship deal. Sarah, take a look at this photo of them walking up to the courthouse. This is such a nut-so photo, you know. They're surrounded by reporters, people with signs, flashing lights. He's looking at her smiling. Yeah. You know, and

He's looking at her smiling. Yeah. You know, and it's just so much eyeliner on, you can't see the whites of her eyes, basically. Yeah, they look almost joyful, but Jim is facing 24 counts of male fraud, wire fraud, and conspiracy. If convicted, he could be in prison for the rest of his life, and his fate is not looking good. About a month earlier, two of his associates were convicted of tax fraud. They were each charged $500,000 and sentenced to more than 17 years

in prison, but their crimes were small compared to gyms, so there's no way he's getting off easy. During the trial, details came out about how he and Tammy misused donations and spent the money on things like an air-conditioned doghouse. At one point, Jim and Tammy's bodyguard testified that he was asked to spend the ministry's money buying bulk amounts of cinnamon rolls, but not because Jim wanted to eat them. He apparently just really liked the smell. Tammy denies this, but either way, lots of Jim and Tammy's former followers are pissed, and they want justice. Just before noon, they get it. The judge announces that Jim has been found guilty

on all 24 counts of fraud and conspiracy. After the verdict is delivered, Tammy face steps up to a bank of microphones outside of the courthouse. Jim's lawyer stands next to her, looking nervous. And then Tammy opens her mouth, and Sarah, she starts singing. On Christ the song is brought by Sam. All other ground is sinking Sam. It's not over.

Tell us though. She honestly sounds like an Amyy-sideric character or something. It's so funny. And it's just, okay, I guess, saying like, that's your reaction? Yeah, I mean, I guess she's stressed. Because Jim is finally facing real consequences for decades of wrongdoing.

But he still steps out of the courtroom with a huge obnoxious smile plastered across his face. And he brazenly maintains his innocence. Here he is addressing reporters. I went into the courtroom, innocent of the charges against me. And I come out today still innocent of the charges against me.

My face is in God and Romans 8.28 says that all things work together for good. Jim's lawyers announced they planned to appeal, but Jim's guilty verdict marks a crossing of the Rubicon for him and Tammy Faye. It'll threaten to destroy what they've spent their entire lives building, from their marriage to their ministry.

Each of them hopes to salvage their legacy by reclaiming the spotlight in whatever way they can. Hello listeners, this is Mike Corey of Against the Odds. You might know that I adventure around the world while recording this podcast. And over the years, I've learned that where I stay when I travel can make all the difference. Airbnb has been my go-to place for finding the perfect accommodations. Because with hotels, you often don't have the luxury of extra space or privacy.

Recently, I had a bunch of friends come down to visit in Mexico. We found this large house and the place had a pool, a barbecue, a kitchen, and a great big living room to play cards. Watch movies and just chill out. It honestly made all the difference in the trip. It felt like we were all roommates again. The next time you're planning a trip, whether it's with friends, family, or yourself, check out Airbnb to find something you won't forget. Alison Matt here from British Scandal. Matt, if we had a bingo card, what would be on there?

Oh, um, compelling storytelling, egotistical white men and dubious humour. If that sounds like your cup of tea, you will love our podcast, British Scandal. The show where every week we bring you stories from this green and not always so pleasant land. We looked at spies, politicians, media magnates, a king, no one is safe. And knowing our country, we won't be out of a job anytime soon. Follow British scandal wherever you listen to your podcasts. From Wondry, I'm Sachi Cole, and I'm Sarah Hagi, and this is Scamful Answers.

is scamful answers. In our last episode, Jim and Tammy Fave Baker rose from humble beginnings as traveling preachers to massively influential Christian TV stars. Now, a series of scandals have brought them down, but these two are not ready to lose their faith, or theirpped on the spotlight. They each make a comeback to rival Lazarus, Tammy through a TV renaissance, and Jim by doubling down on what he does best, scamming in the name of God. This is Jim and Tammy Faye Baker, the Godfraud, part two. Less than three weeks after his trial ends, Jim returns to the courthouse for his sentencing.

The judge deciding Jim's fate is notoriously strict. His name is Robert Potter, but he's actually known as Maximum Bob because he always gives out Maximum sentences. He finds Jim half a million dollars and sentences him to 45 years in federal prison. It's not the Maximum sentence, but it is way more than anyone expected. If Jim ends up serving the entirety of his sentence, he'll likely die in prison. Maximum Bob justifies his harsh sentence by saying that religious people are, quote, sick of being saps for money-grubbing creatures and priests. Jim probably feels like he got hit

with a wrecking ball. His 19 year old daughter, Tammy Sue, is sobbing. Jim tries to comfort her, but before he can say much, a federal marshal comes to take him away. Jim is taken to federal prison in Alabama, and leader transferred to a facility in Minnesota. While there, he reads the Bible cover to cover, for the first time in his life. I'm sorry, wait, he's never read the Bible. He was busy. I do feel like if you're building an entire empire on preaching, you probably should have read it covered to cover at least two or three times.

Yes. I mean, the Bible does have a lot of pages, but you're right. Meanwhile, Jim's lawyers are working on appealing his verdict, and Jim goes out and gets himself a high profile lawyer. does have a lot of pages, but you're right. Meanwhile, Jim's lawyers are working on appealing his verdict, and Jim goes out and gets himself a high profile lawyer. Harvard Law Professor Alan Dershwitz. Sarah, are you familiar with his clientele? Yeah, he's like the grossest guy,

and he went on to represent O.J. Simpson, Harvey Weinstein, and a guy called Donald Trump. Excellent. Well, as you can imagine, Allen services don't come cheap, but Jim and Tammy's remaining followers help cover most of the costs. And it actually pays off. In February 1991, less than a year and a half after Jim went to prison, the court throws out his sentence and his half a million dollar fine.

It all boiled down to that scathing comment that the judge made about money grubbing preachers. According to the appeals court, it showed that the judge was biased against Jim, which is a violation of Jim's due process rights. And now, he is allowed to be resentenced. Jim is thrilled, but he knows he's got to be on his best behavior while in prison. So, he volunteers at a hospice, raises money for United Way, and leads a class to help

other inmates quit smoking. His strategy works, and by the time his hearing rolls around six months later, Jim's sentence is slash from 45 years to 18, which makes him eligible for parole sooner. Now, he could potentially leave prison in just four years. But Tammy isn't gonna wait that long. She's ready to restart her life and break out on her own. In March of 1992,

about seven months after Jim gets his sentence reduced, Tammy writes a letter to her followers. She announces that a judge has officially granted her a divorce from Jim. It's classic Tammy, very public, and very theatrical. The announcement becomes national news and lots of outlets publish portions of the letter. Sarah, will you read a bit of it?

Yeah, it goes, for years I have been pretending that everything is all right. When in fact, I hurt all the time. I cannot pretend anymore. I've been suffering with high blood pressure, anemia, asthma, hyperventilation, all the doctor told me related to stress and severe nervous strain. Tammy claims she's leaving Jim because she's literally sick with worry, but she's also

ready to move on to a new man. His name is Roe Mezzner and he's a Kansas construction magnate known for building churches. He actually helped build Heritage USA, Tammy and Jim's theme park. Both Jim and Tammy have considered him a close friend for years, but it seems like Tammy got even closer to him while Jim's been in prison. She marries Roe in 1993 and they honeymoon in Hawaii.

But their honeymoon period doesn't last very long, because about two years into their marriage, Roe is found guilty of bankruptcy fraud. And there's some real comic irony here. Tammy's second husband is about to go to prison a year after her first one gets parole. Because yeah, Jim Baker got parole after just four years. But Tammy is ready to take another big leap of faith. She's about to team up with a new man, someone who will help usher her into her next era of TV fame.

Tammy makes a return to television during the last week of 1995. The show is called the Jim J and Tammy Faye show, but the Jim in question isn't her ex-husband, it's sitcom star Jim J. Bullock. He's openly gay and Tammy is still very religious, which makes for a fun, odd couple dynamic. When the show debuts on Fox, it marks Tammy's first shift into mainstream entertainment. She's been distancing herself

from conservative Christianity for a while now. During the AIDS crisis, she used her platform to speak out on behalf of people living with HIV and AIDS. It ruffled feathers, including her ex-husband, Jim's. But now that he's out of the picture, Tammy leans into her progressive image. On the Jim J and Tammy face show, she ditches the hymns and decides to poke fun at herself. It's cute, and sometimes her dynamic with this new Jim feels just like the old P.T.L. club. Minus all the old P.T.L. club. Minus all the Bible verses.

At the top of every show, Tammy walks onto the stage holding hands with Jim J. Tammy and Jim J exchanged banter and get up to silly antics like playing mini golf on set. I heard of a lady who killed her poodle doing this one. That is so scary, Tammy. That is really scary. But Tammy and her new host quickly run into problems. First of all, producers keep telling Tammy

that she cries and talks about Jesus too much. Tammy has her own complaints. She feels like Jim J talks about sex too much. The reality is that Tammy has much bigger problems. In March 1996, just a few months into making the show, she reveals that she has colon cancer. Tammy leaves her TV show to focus on her health. She foregoes chemotherapy, but she has surgery

to take out 14 inches of her colon. And through it all, she never loses her sense of self. On the Rosanne show, Tammy later recalls. When I was in the hospital, I wouldn't let him take my makeup off because I said, at the worst time of your life when you're coming out of anesthesia and you're feeling so terrible anyway,

at least if you know you look halfway, Jason, then you feel better about yourself. As Tammy recovers from her surgery, she writes down her life story. It's published in a book called, Tammy telling it my way in October 1996. The book covers her early years in a small town, being raised without indoor plumbing, her rise to global celebrity, and finally her life as a cancer survivor.

Sarah, take a look at the cover and please note, I am using this as inspiration for my next book jacket. No notes. I don't know if anything could be more of the time. You know, it's like a headshot. She's wearing as much makeup as you can, really. And you know what, I'm intrigued. Well, Tammy has endured tragedy after tragedy. She spent the last few years in and out of the least fun places on Earth,

court houses, and then hospitals. But now, she's back on television and at the top of her game. Her reinvention is in full swing, but gyms is just getting started. Almost exactly a year after Tammy's book comes out, Jim publishes one of his own. It's called, I was wrong.

The untold story of the shocking journey from P.T.LL power to prison and beyond. It's a mouthful, but isn't it so, Jim? It is, and the cover really makes him look regretful, you know? He looks like a kid who's been caught and he's like, I'm sorry, Mommy. Yeah, he looks like he did an oopsie for sure. In his book, Jim writes about being released from prison

a little more than a year earlier. It's been transformative for him, at least according to his own version of the story. We reached out to Jim, by the way, and through his representative, he declined to comment for this episode. But he wrote in his book that reading the Bible covered a cover in prison led to an epiphany.

He says he realized that the prosperity gospel isn't truly Christian. Sarah, can you read what he wrote? Yeah, he said, I had presented a Disneyland gospel in which the good guys always get rich. The bad guys are defeated, and everyone lives happily ever after. A spiritual fantasy land where God's people are always blessed materially, physically, and of course, spiritually. Like a car salesman, I did not want anyone to see any defects in our product.

I guess I'm unsure, like, is he saying that reading the Bible helped him figure out that, you know, actually, that's not how it works. And I can't believe I thought that, but also I just kind of made it up and didn't even read the Bible. Yeah, it's a weird, it's a weird stance. I thought that, but also I just kind of made it up and didn't even read the Bible. Yeah, it's a weird, it's a weird stance. The memoir is Jim's first for a back into the public eye after leaving prison. He's been spending most of his time ministering in Los Angeles

in neighborhoods he often refers to as quote, the ghetto. Jim knows he's always worked best as one half of a duo with a wife to make him look like a pious husband. So in 1998, he marries a pentacostal woman named Laurie Graham, who has her own comeback story. She spent her teens partying, doing drugs, and hooking up, which, you know, hard same. But after an unhappy marriage, she eventually found God and became a minister. Laurie is perfect for Jim's comeback. Sarah, she even looks like a tone down 17 years younger Tammy Faye. This is scary how much she looks like Tammy Faye.

And I don't mean that in a, oh, like women of a certain age who like all white ladies look alike. No, that's not it. Same head shape. Yeah, very similar head shape. It's just like very, very similar looking and she still is like odd looking in a way

but it's not Tammy Faye levels. It's kind of like, oh, let's take some makeup off and make the hair a little flatter but same weird energy emanating from your aura. Correct. Well shortly after they get married, Jim and Laurie moved back to North Carolina

where they start plotting Jim's return to the Christian spotlight. And luckily for him, the only thing America loves more than seeing the self-righteous brought low is a redemption arc. And that's exactly what's propelling Tammy to a new wave of fame. Hello there, one, Drillysna. I'm Sruti Bala, one half of multi-award winning true crime

podcast Redhanded. Now if you're looking for a new podcast to keep you going, especially during that weird gap between Christmas and the new year, why not check out Redhanded? We've got hundreds of hours of episodes to binge, and this year we covered everything from the Idaho student murders to Lucy Leppie. Recently, we even did a live shorthand episode. Shorthand is our mini show exclusive to Wondry, and we did this with the UK's favourite agony aunt. La la la let me explain. And it was all about Hybristophilia, or in other words, being massively attracted to violent criminals. or in other words, being massively attracted to violent criminals. Christmassy? Probably not. Interesting? Absolutely.

So this year, why not snuggle up next to the fire? Be an off those so-called Christmas classics and listen to the dulcet tones of your two new favorite podcasters, Red Handed. As we tell you all about something, as far from Christmassy as you can imagine. Hello listeners! This is Mike Corey of Against the Odds. You might know that I adventure around the world while recording this podcast. And over the years, I've learned that where I stay when I travel can make all the difference. Airbnb has been my go-to place for finding the perfect accommodations.

Because with hotels, you often don't have the luxury of extra space or privacy. Recently, I had a bunch of friends come down to visit in Mexico. We found this large house and the place had a pool, a barbecue, a kitchen, and a great big living room to play cards. Watch movies and just chill out. It honestly made all the difference in the trip. It felt like we were all roommates again. The next time you're planning a trip,

whether it's with friends, family, or yourself, check out Airbnb to find something you won't forget. I feel like a... It's the late 90s, and Tammy Faye is in remission. And she's also all over television. By the end of the decade, she's appeared on the Roseanne show, the RuPaul show, and she even guest stars on the Drew Carey show as Mimi's mom. Don't tell me your Mimi's mom.

Yes, and you'll have to excuse me because I barely had time to put in a face-on. Tammy has always had a glittery, over-the-top personal style. But now, she's a bonafide queer icon. Her appeal runs deeper than just a campy persona. Her brand of Christianity is accepting, rather than judgmental. It's fun, instead of strict. In 2000, RuPaul, who has become a close friend, narrates a documentary about her. It's called The Eyes of Tammy Faye. And in it, he

christenes her with a new nickname. Tammy Faye is the first lady of religious broadcasting. The documentary lovingly depicts Tammy as someone who, despite all those scandals, has spent her life cultivating genuine compassion for marginalized people. It also cements her legacy as a kind-hearted ambassador for a new kind of Christian. As Tammy becomes a cultural icon on the left, Jim is moving in the opposite direction, entrenching himself even more firmly with the evangelical right. By 2002, Jim and his new wife, Laurie, have carved out a nice life for themselves in Florida.

They've also adopted five children. Jim spends some time traveling and preaching, but he craves a more consistent, visible platform. His prayers are answered when he gets a call from a fan named Jerry Crawford. Jerry is a wealthy real estate developer from Branson, Missouri. He credits P.T.L. with saving his marriage 20 years earlier and says he's been rooting for Jim ever since. Jerry wants to see Jim get back on his feet and back on the airwaves.

He says he's willing to throw all of his financial resources behind Jim's comeback, as long as Jim's willing to move his family to Branson. Jim decides he's got nothing to lose, so he and Laurie pack up their family and head to Branson. Jerry buys a house for the bakers to live in and an old cafe to convert into a TV studio. They call it Studio City Cafe, and in January 2003, Jim returns to the airwaves. Live from Studio City Cafe in beautiful Branson, Missouri, it's the new Jim Bakers show. What the hell is Studio City Cafe? That doesn't evoke anything, first of all.

You're in Missouri. Would it be better if they meant the Studio City in Los Angeles? Like, that's not a great place, either. Well, I mean, that's where it's called Studio City for Reason, Satchee. What is... These people, their obsession was still getting attention. You know, what can you even do? I know. Well, the Jim Baker Show is a lot like the P.T.L. club. Jim and Lori bring on friends and fellow ministers to chat around their table.

They hire various gospel and Christian folk singers to perform, but unlike Tammy, Lori never sings. And instead of constant Terry telephones, the Jim Baker show has more of a QVC vibe. Jim and Laurie are constantly advertising things, books, jewelry, paintings, flashlights, whatever will pay the bills. But they're just getting started. Meanwhile, Tammy is about to get a hard dose of reality. By the mid-2000s, Tammy is still making the rounds as a celebrity guest on various corners

of television. In early 2004, she appears on the second season of the surreal life alongside rapper Vanilla Ice. Sarah, you already know that I watched all of this like eight times. Is there any chance you remember this show? Absolutely. I would watch it in the summers when I was visiting my aunt in America. It was on VH1, a bunch of delus celebrities in a mansion, the first show of its kind.

I believe. Yeah, big personality, small shared space, you know, very classic TV stuff. And Tammy's charming as ever on the show. In one episode, producers direct her and her castmates to have a say on. My Bible says that side cakes and those kind of people that we are not to have anything to do with. I feel like Tammy's role on the show was kind of a strange woman from another world and another generation who was trying to understand all these keyvans, and I found her very compassionate

actually to everybody's lives. But almost immediately after her season of the surreal life heirs, Tammy Fakos on Larry King Live to share some devastating news. Her cancer has returned, and this time it's in her lungs, and it's in operable. She starts spending most of her time at home near Kansas City, Missouri. Her daughter, Tammy Sue, takes care of her while she undergoes chemo. A little more than a year later, she appears on Larry King Live again. She looks gaunt and her voice is horse and monotone. When Larry asks her if she believes she's going to heaven, she says, quote, I know for sure. The next day Tammy passes away at home at the age of 65.

Her husband Rowe is by her side. Her footprint on culture has been cemented, but Jim is still trying to shape his own legacy. He's turned all of his attention on prepping for the future, and it turns out it's full of disaster. In the early years of the Jim Baker Show, Jim and Lori claimed to be operating on a shoestring budget, with a volunteer staff and a makeshift studio. They're always talking about how they need more money to cover the show's costs, but they won't tell anyone how much money the show is bringing in each year. Jim resorts to his old tricks, including hitting up his audience for money.

He and Lori offer jewelry, mugs, and other gifts in exchange for donations. But Lori puts her own twist on the formula. In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, she gets the bright idea to offer backpacks filled with disaster kits for a suggested donation of $150 each. We don't know exactly what was in the packs, but it's likely stuff like food and water, for a stayed kits, lanterns, spare batteries,

your typical prepper fare. It's really funny to me that, like, for a lot of these evangelist types, the final grift is prepping. For end of life, yeah. It's kind of like, all right, well, I know we can probably scare some people into thinking the end of the world is imminent, so let's get on that and sell vats of slop

that will be in their garage until they die. Everybody can use some soilent and business seems to be good for Jim and Laurie. In 2008, they moved from the house in Branson to a 600 acre compound near the Arkansas border. They call it Morningside. Jerry, their wealthy benefactor, spent $25 million building the sprawling campus for them. It's got a home, a television studio, and a theme park that looks like a giant indoor city, complete with a general store, a piazza, and a main street. The ceilings even painted to look like a bright blue sky on a clear day. It is the fucking Truman show over there. And Sarah, I know this speaks to both of us because we love chain restaurants and malls and freak shows.

I would love if you could describe Grace Chapel, the centerpiece of Morningside. I mean, this looks like Christian Las Vegas, you know? It's meant to look like an outdoor little town square, but it's very much indoors and the ceilings are quite low. They're really low, really low. And at the center, there's like this huge statue of Jesus and right in front of it, I guess, is a pew for people to pray to him. I guess it makes sense. I don't know how Christianity works, so that's what I'm guessing. Well, Jim has somehow regained everything he lost with PTL in the 80s.

He's got a hot blonde wife and his own TV channel again. Plus, this time, he's got an entire town devoted to his beliefs. But unlike his early life with Tammy, there's an unmistakably dark tinged to this second act. Jim and Lori's new compound is basically a whole new version of Heritage USA, but there's a crucial difference between the two parks. Heritage USA was inspired by Disneyland, but Morningside seems more like Vegas meets apocalypse now. After renouncing the prosperity gospel, Jim has embraced a new message. The world is ending soon, and only he can help his followers prepare for it.

It's likely inspired, at least in part, by Laurie's success with the Hurricane Katrina backpacks. So naturally, Laurie dials up her disaster panic at every chance she gets. After massive typhoons sweep through the Western Pacific Ocean in 2011, Laurie revives the emergency disaster kits and starts hawking them again. Sarah, will you please read this quote from one of Lori's blog posts advertising her go-bags? Yeah, she says, What if California falls into the ocean? What if the new Madrid fault gives way in the middle of this country?

I don't want to be an alarmist, but I do want to be a realist. That last sentence was in all caps. Thank you. Okay, I mean valid questions. Listen, part of it I can see through, but this is also all happening during the Obama administration, which gives Jim and Laurie plenty to get riled up about. There are convinced that Obama is a quote,

representative for anti-Christ, and that judgment day is coming. Luckily, they have just the thing to help. A series of plastic buckets, each containing 18 freeze-dried meals, and most of them are priced at more than 100 bucks each. Sarah, take a look at the screenshot from the Jim Baker show. Yeah, I mean, this is disgusting. It looks like a home depot paint bucket. And it says, oh, it says tasty pantry. And you know what? He does not look like he's ever going to eat this. The look on his face is one of total emptiness.

Yeah. Things are hollow over there. Food options include a, quote, Asian-style teriyaki kit with freeze-dried beef and a beef-flavored vegetarian meat substitute. There's mac and cheese, creamy potato soup, creamy stroganoff, chicken breast chunks, and chocolate pudding. Here, I would like you to take a look at what these meals look like. Look at them! This is some of the most disgusting slop I've ever seen in my life. If I gave this to a dog,

I would do it if I hated the dog only. If I gave this to a dog, I would do it if I hated the dog only. This is dog food for a dog you hate. The only recognizable meal to me is the bright, bright orange, mac and cheese that looks so watery. This is sick, I can't look at this anymore, keep going. It's the color of buffalo chicken sauce. I would rather die in whatever apocalypse

than eat soft food like this in a basement. You know what I mean? It's like, what are you living for at that point? Well, Sarah, it actually gets better because they bring on a singer to promote the food buckets on their show. Oh, I've got powdered food. For a stormy day, beats and spinach and blueberry and strawberries.

Jim Baker is found a fun new niche, and he's about to get a massive boost from someone a lot like him, but just way more powerful. Hi there, I'm Guy Ross. And I'm Mindy Thomas. Wait. And we're the host of the number one podcast for curious kids and their grownups. Wow in the world! Join us as we discover the wonders in our world. Or as we like to call them, wow's.

The wows of science, the wows of new technology, innovation, and the people changing the world as we know it. Wow. Now I kinda wanna listen to the show, guys. Woo-hoo-hoo-hoo. Exactly.

Join us on our next scientific adventure every Monday, wherever you get your podcasts. Or, add free and one week early on Wondery Plus Kids. When Donald Trump gets elected president in 2016, Jim is elated. He says he believes Trump was called by God to serve the country. But Jim can't rejoice for long. His business model relies on him inciting panic amongst his followers, so he finds a new spin for this current moment.

He says that this is the calm before the storm, and that something bad is brewing. In early 2020, his so-called prophecy seems to come true when the pandemic starts. Jim takes advantage of this by selling bottles of colloidal silver. He calls it silver solution, and he markets it as a cure for COVID-19. He sells the solution in packs of four

with the suggested donation of $80 to $125. But colloidal silver has no known medical uses and it contains no essential nutrients. And in rare cases, it can actually turn your skin blue. I do know that it can turn your skin blue, not from personal experience, but there was like a guy who was on TV a lot and he was on the Today show once.

Yeah, he was on Oprah. Oh, he's on Oprah yet. His skin was fully blue. I know exactly who you're talking about. Then he died. Oh my God, he had on Oprah. Oh, he's on Oprah. Yeah, his skin was fully blue. I know exactly who you're talking about. Then he died. Oh my God. He had to go on every show to be like, don't eat silver, he'll turn blue.

And that's why I haven't. That's why I haven't. That's literally why I haven't. Well, ironically, the Trump administration that Jim once praised is now going after him. The FDA and the FTC send stern warnings to Jim's team. They tell him that he's violated the law by selling fake COVID-19 treatments,

and they tell him to cut it out immediately. Then the state of Missouri sues him to get him to stop selling this junk on air. In June 2021, he settles the suit, and he agrees to pay $156,000 in restitution. Three months later, he settles a similar lawsuit filed by the state of Arkansas. But Jim and Lori continued to promote products

aimed at surviving the apocalypse, like a Christmas variety bucket containing 17 dehydrated foods for just 99.99. You just add water. Jim has also recently relaunched the PTO Cloud with Lori. Memberships, which can run up to 100 bucks a month, include archival content, recorded sermons, and emergency preparedness teachings.

Jim Baker has spent the better part of 50 years in the spotlight, from his prosperity gospel past to his doomsday prepper present. He's found love with two blonde women who lent him their support and charm. And he's taken advantage of millions of people's Christian faith to sell them junk that he says will bring them the health

and the wealth that they deserve. If there's a scamful insert in heaven, which is basically hell, he will surely be there manning those gates. Sarah, that's it. That's the ballad of Jim Baker and Tammy Faye. What do you think? It's always so interesting seeing how these mechanisms work within mega churches and community

type scams. You know, it's always the same process, no matter what. Yeah. There is a kind of redundancy to like all religious scams. They all kind of sound the same. Yeah. And, you know, if we're talking about how mega church's function for quite a long time, this was not a scam.

Mm-hmm. So it is so crazy to me that it got out of hand in this way when it was pretty maintainable. And if they had just played the long game, I really don't think this would have happened. I think some of it is like the mistake was that Jim so loudly talked about the prosperity gospel, whereas like a lot of other preachers who sort of work in the same space are not so loud about like, I'm very rich. Do you know what I mean? It makes people notice you more.

And then there was like that newspaper that wrote like 600 articles and it's like they had to do all that work to start to like tear him down. Yeah, he didn't really play the game in the right way, because again, so many of these mega church pastors are filthy rich, and also I feel like they're strategic enough to have read enough of the Bible to bring up other stuff. How do you feel about Tammy? After knowing, at least this story about

that particular husband and then what she ends up doing, how do you feel about her now? I don't think she's this terribly rotten evil person. It sounds like she got really caught up in this life, having grown up the way she did, but I don't know. I don't really feel that bad for her. I mean, yes, it was her husband. She didn't have a lot to do with the day to day of the scam. But to me,

it's kind of like the ignorance wasn't really an excuse. Yeah. I think that's fair. Her good nature and how obviously outwardly emotional and caring she was, to me, doesn't make up for the fact that like she was a participant in this. Like this was built because of her allure with Jim. Yeah. You know, it wasn't something that just happened around her. I agree with you. You're right. And like I obviously don't, I don't like to give anybody but I do also feel like she believed the wrong person and the wrong things, but she did believe them. And then I think after she realized she was wrong, she was sort of trying to take time to reassess and reshape her worldview and like fit back into a different psych guys.

I think that makes her an interesting figure. I don't necessarily have like a world of pity for her, but I do feel sorry for any woman who just gets like crushed by her shitty husband. Definitely. I do feel sorry for any woman who just gets crushed by her shitty husband. Definitely. I definitely feel bad for that, but also it's like being interesting, kind of made it seem like there was an innocence there because she was very childlike and can't be the weeping helped in her favor for sure. Yeah, and I'm just kind of like, yeah, she was a true character. There's a reason why she was famous. But to me, that doesn't necessarily separate her from her complicity in this whole thing.

But I do love her as like a pop culture figure. She's incredible. Yeah, she's incredible. She's like a true weirdo. And I love when someone has like look, they never abandoned. She puts that ares Lisa Rina, that hair cut. Yes, that day and hair cut. It's sad her life didn't go a different way

because she was clearly very talented. She was clearly very charismatic, but just having the wrong way. And I feel bad for that. Doesn't it feel right for scamfluencers hell that Jim is still alive and Tammy is not here? Yeah, to me, it's just like, how do you go through all that? Go to prison, see your life crumble, go from the top to the bottom and then still kind

of just like, now you're selling sloth. He's still scamming, man. Rotten people live longer. I'm going to be here forever. You know what? Maybe he's still alive because he's eaten that. Honestly, me saying that is making me gag. Like it doesn't take a lot to make me feel sick, but thinking about that disgusting food and those pictures of that like watery mac and cheese, you don't want to buy Jim Baker's

Soilant. No, it looked like you go to Popeyes and they're giving you expired sides. Sarah, you and I have talked about this, that if there was ever a zombie infestation, I would just be, I'm ready to go. Like, I'm good to die. I'm ready to go. I'll fight a little bit, but you got me, you got me. I would walk outside and be like, let's go.

I'm good. This is unnecessary. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot I would do before eating that slop. Yeah. I'll tell you that much. Yeah. If the end of the world is happening the way these freaks say it is a lot I would do before eating that slop. I'll tell you that much. Yeah. If the end of the world is happening the way these freaks say it is

and that the shit hits the fan, do not align yourself with this man. He's not gonna help you for a while. He's weak as hell. I mean, what is he gonna fight for you? He survived more than one would guess. Yeah, but he's not. I just don't think he would be the person

I would want to align myself with power wise. And you know what? There's no way that slop won't give you diarrhea. And the last thing you want in that scenario is to be having diarrhea. Listeners, don't forget, if there's an apocalypse and you have diarrhea, things are not

going to go your way. Yeah, don't eat the slop. Don't eat the slop, guys, don't eat the slop. Don't eat the slop, guys. Don't eat the slop. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to ScanFluencers, add free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen to add free with Wendry Plus and Apple podcasts.

Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wundery.com slash survey. This is Jim and Tammy Faye Baker, the Godfraud Part 2. I'm Sachi Cole, and I'm Sarah Hagi. If you have a tip for us on a story that you think we should cover, please email us at scampleincersatwundery.com. And a reminder that our scamfluencers merch is now live atwonderyshop.com. We use many sources in our research. A few that were particularly helpful

were the second coming of Televangelis Jim Baker by Kelsey McKinney and Buzzfeed News. The book, P-T-L, The Rise and Fall of Jim and Tammy Faye Baker's Evangelical Empire by John Wiggher and Charlie Shepards reporting for the Charlotte Observer, Izzy Mpiel wrote this episode, Additional Writing by Us, Sachi Cole and Sarah Hackie. Sarah Enny is our story editor and producer and Eric Thurm is our story editor.

Fact checking by Gabrielle Drolley, sound designed by James Morgan, Additional audio assistance provided by Adrian Tapia. Our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Freeze on Sink. Our coordinating producer is Desi Blaylock and our managing producer is Matt Gantt. Jeanine Cornelow and Stephanie Gens are a development producers. Our associate producers are Charlotte Miller and Lexi Peary. Our producers are John Reed, Yasmin Ward and Kate Young. Our senior producers are Ginny Bloom and Genswan. Our executive producers are Jenny Lauer, Beckman, Marshall Lui and Erin O'Flairity for Wundery.

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