Scamfluencers - Never Forget, Never Forgive

Episode Date: May 13, 2024

In this episode we look into an alarming scam trend: people who lie about where they were on 9/11. It’s a lie that ties together a volunteer firefighter seeking attention, an immigrant trying to fit in, a comedian looking for his big break, and even someone seeking the White House. They’re exploiting national tragedy for sympathy and clout. But with a lie so easy to disprove, what can they really hope to gain?See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or Apple podcasts. A note to our listeners, this episode contains graphic descriptions of the events of 9-11. Please listen with care. Sarah, I know that you are a notorious liar, but have you ever told a whopper of a lie that you regretted? Like, it just completely got away from you and you just kept telling it and you kept telling it. Okay, first of all, I'm not a notorious liar.

Second of all, no, that's actually never happened to me. Maybe when I was a kid, but I feel like it has just so much work to keep up a big lie. Yeah, when I was little, I told one of my friends I could see things through my eyelids, and I just really had to commit to the bit after that. Well, that's a really easy one to disprove, so your friend was kind of dumb.

That is true. Well, today I ask, because we have a special episode, Sarah, unlike any we've done before, I'm gonna tell you about a bunch of people who all told the same kind of lie. It's September 11th, 2011, and Jordan Lifelander is in a packed college football stadium in Spartanburg, South Carolina. Jordan is in his 50s, and while his long mustache and pitbull physique might scream football coach, he's not here for a game.

He's a volunteer firefighter and he's here to commemorate the 10th anniversary of 9-11. There's a collective prayer, a bunch of doves are released into the air and helicopters fly over the stadium. A rabbi ends the event by blowing a shofar. But Jordan is the real star of the show. He steps up to the podium to speak, wearing his New York firefighters uniform

from back in 2001. Jordan tells the crowd that he was supposed to have the day off on September 11th, but when he learned of the unfolding disaster, he rushed to Lower Manhattan to help his fellow first responders. Through tears, he says he went to 47 funerals afterward, in the span of just three weeks. The crowd is moved by Jordan's story. He gets a standing ovation. But Jordan is keeping a secret from the audience. He wasn't at ground zero in 2001. In fact, he was never even a New York City firefighter. And soon enough he'll be exposed as one of the dozens of people who have a very strange scam in

common. Lying about 9-11. Some stories were never meant to be heard. Beneath the visible world of parliaments, politicians, and civil servants lies an invisible state filled with secret operatives playing to very different rules. From Wondery, I'm Indra Varma and this is The Spy Who. This month we open the file on Noor Anayat Khan, the spy who wouldn't lie.

When Germany invades France, Noor and her family are forced to flee to Britain. But Noor decides she can't just sit out the war, so she accepts one of the most dangerous spy missions of World War II, a job that will put her deep into enemy territory. Follow The Spy Who now, wherever you listen to podcasts. Or you can binge the full season of The Spy Who Wouldn't Lie early and ad free with Wondery Plus. What does it mean to be Black in America? In NPR's Black Stories, Black Truths, a collection

of stories as varied, nuanced, and dynamic as Black experiences, you'll hear. It means everything. Search NPR Black Stories, Black Truths wherever you get your podcasts. From Wondery, I'm Saatchi Cole. And I'm Sarah Haggi. And this is Scamfluencers. I've learned my lesson, turned my speakers to a loving. I feel like a legend. Normally we dedicate each episode, or sometimes two, to a single scammer. But today we're doing something different. We're gonna look at the alarming trend of people lying

about where they were on 9-11. Now, I'm not talking about your friend's coworker who was gonna go to New York in 2001 and really cut it close. I mean people who lie about escaping the towers, being a first responder or losing a loved one. This scam trend is so interesting to me because the benefits of the lie aren't exactly clear.

There's almost no money in it and it is a very tough lie to keep up. There must be something motivating this because a surprising number of people have done it. And today we're gonna examine their stories. This is 9-Eleven Liars, Never Forget, Never Forgive. -♪ Legend. -♪ Legend.

It's November 2003. An urban planner named Jerry Bogatz is digging into a potluck dinner. Jerry's in his mid-40s with a graying beard and a mostly bald head. He's a lifelong New Yorker, and he's had a rough couple of years. He was on the 82nd floor of the North Tower on 9-11. He isn't lying.

He was actually there. He immediately evacuated, but three of his coworkers died in the attack. After 9-11, he was wracked with survivor's guilt so severe that it started to impact his relationship with his family. So to cope with his trauma, he started hosting meetings with other survivors so they can share what they've been going through. Tonight, they're in the community room at Trinity Church, a historic cathedral just a few blocks from Ground Zero.

As they eat, someone tells Jerry about Tanya Head, a survivor who has an incredible story. Jerry wants to meet her. So after the potluck, a survivor who has an incredible story. Jerry wants to meet her. So after the potluck, he sends her an email introducing himself. Tanya writes him back and shares her experience of 9-11. She says she actually saw one of the planes hit the building, destroying her office and decapitating her assistant. Then she writes, a dying man gave her his wedding ring and asked her to give it to his

soon-to-be widow. She says that she almost burned to death, but the flames were put out by an equities trader who rescued as many as 18 people before he died. Tanya claims she had to crawl through rubble and dead bodies to escape. Even after she made it out, her arm was almost completely severed and had to be reattached. And worse still, her fiance worked in the North Tower and he died in the attack, just a few weeks before they were supposed to get married. It's a harrowing tale, somehow even more extreme than the stories of most other survivors. And Sarah, it's a complete lie.

Tanya wasn't even in the country on 9-11. This is something a compulsive liar would piece together in my opinion. It's just tragic thing after tragic thing after tragic thing that you would feel guilty to question as a regular person. Yeah. Tanya's story is basically a compilation of horrific things that happened to real people. Like the equities traitor was real.

He did save a bunch of people before he died, and he became a folk hero to many survivors. But Jerry doesn't know yet that Tanya is lying. He's just amazed by her perseverance. And he's even more impressed when he learns that she also leads a survivor's group. She formed one on Yahoo that now has about 500 members. And Sarah, remember, this is 2003. Tanya shows up to one of Jerry's survivor group meetings

about two months later. She's got blonde hair, a round face, and narrow glasses. She looks sort of like Phyllis from The Office. She's originally from Spain. And though she's soft-spoken, everyone pays attention when she talks. Jerry thinks Tanya is inspiring, someone who proves that survivors can go on to thrive. After the meeting, Jerry and Tanya is inspiring, someone who proves that survivors can go on to thrive.

After the meeting, Jerry and Tanya go to a 24-hour diner near Penn Station. And over bottomless coffee, Jerry has what one might call an uncharitable thought. He later says that he looks at Tanya's arm and thinks that it doesn't look like it had been burned, but he immediately feels guilty for having doubts. After all, why would someone lie

about being injured on 9-11? Especially to him, another survivor. I understand this because it's such a disgusting thing to do that you're not gonna assume like, hey, this person is lying. Like I'd be so traumatized it wouldn't be vetting my trauma group. No, it wouldn't come up. But by the end of their meeting at the

diner, Jerry and Tanya have decided to combine their two support networks. They call their new group the World Trade Center Survivors Network. Tanya proves to be a great leader right away. Within a few weeks, she manages to achieve something Jerry's been trying to do for two years. Schedule a private tour of Ground Zero just for survivors. Jerry's amazed. The city authorities have mostly ignored his request for a tour like this in the past. Tanya says she made friends with the guy in charge of the area and that he's

agreed to let them visit as long as they keep a low profile. No media, just the chance for them to have the space to themselves. But Tanya's seemingly selfless leadership is about to take a turn, and her ambition will get between Jerry and the survivor network that's been his lifeline. It's September 2005, about two years after Jerry and Tanya started their group. The city is commemorating the fourth anniversary of 9-11

with a public tour of Ground Zero, guided by people who were there. There are plenty of VIPs in attendance, including New York Governor George Pataki, Mayor Michael Bloomberg, and former Mayor and 9-Eleven enthusiast Rudy Giuliani. They're all following their tour guide. Tanya.

Sarah, take a look at this photo. This woman was not at 9-Eleven. Yet here she is with some of the most important people in New York, walking around with a crowd. Mic, cameras around her, and she's, you know, wearing like a power suit and looking very important. Like I would think she was working for the state if I just glanced at this. Not that she was a scammer who lied about surviving 9-Eleven. Also she doesn't even know where she's going.

Like, what is she giving a tour of? She wasn't there. Well, Tanya's story has made her a bit of a celebrity in the 9-11 survivors community. She's made it her life's mission to raise money for survivors and give them opportunities to share their stories. Jerry and the rest of the survivor community

know Tanya's 9-11 story well, but it's basically all they know about her. Like, she says that she works at Merrill Lynch, but Jerry has never met any of her co-workers. And she spends a lot of time at a beach house on Long Island that she bought with her fiance, Dave, before he died. But every time someone is supposed to visit her there, something just happens to derail the plan. It seems like Tanya wants to avoid going into too much detail about her past. She doesn't show people photos of her and Dave.

She says it's too painful. And she says that she doesn't want to tell people his last name because his family is very private. Everyone respects Tanya and her grief, so they don't push when she shuts down their questions. Besides, they're all busy working on a new campaign that she's spearheading, an attempt to preserve one of the staircases from the World Trade Center.

Hundreds of survivors used it to escape, and it's one of the last pieces of the building still standing. Tanya and Jerry wanted installed as a memorial at Ground Zero, and their group gets lots of positive press about it, including a write-up in the New York Times. Jerry is thrilled.

But about six months later, the pair are tabling for their survivors' network at a street fair when Tanya gives Jerry some bad news. She tells him other people in the group aren't happy with his leadership. Jerry's stunned. This group is a huge part of his life. Tanya tells him that she's just the messenger, but soon, Jerry is called to a huge part of his life. Tanya tells him that she's just the messenger, but soon Jerry is called to a special meeting of the board

where they lay out all of their complaints. And Tanya presides over the whole thing. That's when Jerry realizes that she's been leading a mutiny against him. Tanya tells him that other survivors think he hasn't been fighting hard enough to save the staircase. And it turns out people were also mad

when he suggested reaching out to local Muslim community leaders. When some survivors posted Islamophobic rants on the group's message board, Jerry told them to cut it out. How thoughtless of him. Yeah, I remember that kind of reaction being a little bit of a big thing when I was growing up.

I wonder if this will make you remember more. Sarah, you and I have been junior high students, so we understand the Mean Girl Whisper campaign that Tanya is running. But for Jerry, this is coming out of nowhere. It's not until years later that he realizes that Tanya's bullying started soon after he asked a seemingly simple question. What was Dave's last name? Jerry reluctantly gives up his role as co-chair

and Tanya is named the sole president. And at another meeting a few months later, in October 2006, Jerry watches helplessly as he fails to be reelected to the board altogether. He started the group three years ago and now he has to walk away dazed and in tears. But he's not the only person Tanya tries to manipulate and control.

And after so many years pushing to share her story, she's about to get tangled in her own web of lies. The following year, Serge Kovaleski is sitting at his desk, frustrated. Serge is in his mid forties with short hair and the faintest wisp of a soul patch. He also has a condition that stiffens and limits mobility in his right arm, which I promise will come up later.

He's a reporter for the New York Times and he's been trying to write a profile about a 9-11 survivor for the past few months. But it's just not coming together. Surge and his reporting partner David Dunlap have both covered 9-11 related news for years. David wrote about how buildings destroyed in the attack have changed the Manhattan skyline. He even wrote the piece about the campaign to save the World Trade Center staircase. Surge did stories about the fallout after the attacks, including the anthrax panic and the FBI's investigation of the Muslim community in northern New Jersey. Wow, this has really taken me back to when everyone was scared of getting letters with

anthrax in them. Anthrax low-key fell off, but go on. Well Serge and David are now planning to write a profile about the leader of the Survivors Network, Tanya. But every time they try to schedule an interview, she backs out, and she refuses to answer any questions. After they begin to do their own research, Serge and David start to notice some, well, conflicting information.

Like, they learn that Tanya has told some people that Dave was her husband, and other people that he was her fiance. The reporters begin to wonder if there's maybe more to this story. And when they try to confirm some of the basic facts about Tanya's life, she lashes out. Tanya tells anyone who will listen

that she's being harassed by vultures of the New York Times. David even gets angry phone calls from some of Tanya's friends, including a trauma therapist named Janice who counsels survivors. Janice warns David to leave Tanya alone and says that Tanya is breaking down under the pressure. The conversation devolves into a shouting match.

I mean, this is so difficult because it's like, as a reporter, I'm sure they are noticing some of the lies, but it must be so hard to be like, hey, this woman that you've kind of built a movement around and who became your leader is maybe lying about a very tragic terrorist attack. Yeah, it's kind of tough to ask these questions. But just a few weeks later, the reporters do get a call back. It's Janice. She has something she needs to tell them. She says she recently went with Tanya to a lawyer.

They were hoping to find a legal way to stop the Times from contacting her. Janice was just there as moral support, and she waited outside while they talked. After the meeting, when the women were ready to leave, the lawyer started to comfort Tanya. But the things she said to reassure her raised major red flags for Janice. It sounded like what Tanya told the lawyer about her life story was very different from what she told Janice. Here's Janice describing this moment later in a documentary called The Woman Who Wasn't There. And as she was saying back to Tanya,

it's OK that you only knew Dave a few months. And it's OK, Tanya, that you were only here in the building for the day. And I just could not believe what I was like, I actually, I think I went into shock. Janice tells Serge and David that she's starting to question if Tanya was even at the World Trade Center on 9-11. And Janice isn't the only one talking to them. After a bunch of interviews, the reporters eventually conclude that pretty much all of Tanya's story is a lie. Her supposed fiance Dave was a real person, and he did die on 9-11. But his family is still in shock. The reporters eventually conclude that pretty much all of Tanya's story is a lie. Her supposed fiance Dave was a real person and he did die on 9-11.

But his family has never even heard of Tanya and they're pretty sure she never met him. Tanya also never worked at Merrill Lynch and actually the company didn't even have offices in the World Trade Center. You know, this is really the easiest thing to double check that a business existed in a building and no one bothered to look. Oh, Sarah, wait, because Serge and David discovered that Tanya's lies don't just include 9-Eleven. She also lied about having degrees from Harvard and Stanford. And Tanya's always talked a lot about the golden retriever she and Dave supposedly had together. But no one has met him. The dog walker always had him.

We can't say for sure, but it does seem like this is a fake dog. I mean, yes, that is the dog you would make up. The most wholesome all-American dog. You'd be like, yeah, I have a golden retriever. I'm all-American too. I was a victim of 9-11. Ah, greatest country in the world. Well, a few days later, Serge is finally able to talk to Tanya on a conference call with Janice. But all Tanya says is that she hasn't done anything illegal.

After months of reporting, Serge and David's profile has turned into a damning expose. It runs on the front page of the New York Times in September, 2007. It shows how the woman who presented herself as the face of the 9-11 survivors movement was lying, about everything. Other survivors who had grown close to Tanya

feel totally betrayed. The Survivors Network Board votes to remove her as president. But the fallout is just getting started. When her former friends try to unravel her lies, it'll take them halfway around the world and expose a lifetime of deception When Angelo Guillermo reads the time story he's pissed Angelo is a documentary filmmaker and has been filming Tanya for months. He's making a movie about 9-eleven survivors Angelo is in his early 50s with sharp eyebrows and a big grin.

He wasn't at the World Trade Center on 9-Eleven, but he brought supplies to first responders at Ground Zero. And he's become a part of the extended community. Angelo is devastated to learn that Tanya, who he considers a friend, has been lying. Plus, he knows the story could cause a huge problem for the film he's been spending so much time on. So he heads to Tanya's apartment in Midtown. He wants to know the truth. He knows the story could cause a huge problem for the film he's been spending so much time on.

So he heads to Tanya's apartment in Midtown. He wants to know the truth. When he arrives, he finds her sitting in her apartment, staring at news stories about her unfolding scandal. — 9-11 outrage. Is this famous September 11th victim really a phony? — She wasn't even in the United States on September 11th. It was all a lie. — Of all the personal stories to emerge from the World Trade Center attacks,

few could rival those told by one woman. Those were reports from Inside Edition, CNN, and NBC News. The news about Tanya is everywhere, and Tanya is furious as she watches the coverage. She yells at the TV and curses out the people in the survivors' group, who she feels have turned on her. Angelo is surprised by her behavior. He sits in the apartment for a while as Tanya stews in anger and self-pity.

He was hoping to learn the truth, but after a while he realizes that she just isn't going to confess, or even try to defend herself by explaining the inconsistencies in her story. He later says that when he gets up to leave, Tonya tells him, quote, well, now we have an ending for the movie. Oh, my God. The movie? The movie you're gonna star in?

You mean the documentary that this guy spent time working on? Well, to her, it's fiction, right? So... Yeah, exactly. It's so crazy. I mean, she's absolutely insane. Well, Angela checks in with other survivors who knew Tonya. Right? So yeah, exactly. It's so crazy. I mean, she's absolutely insane. Well, Angela checks in with other survivors who knew Tanya.

They're all incredibly upset. One of the group's members, who was very close to Tanya, says that the fallout from her lies is giving her panic attacks. She tells Angela that her PTSD has gotten so bad, she's basically regressed to where she was right after 9-11. Angela is worried about further traumatizing her by continuing his documentary, but she and the other survivors urge him to keep going. They want the truth.

So Angelo keeps digging. In July 2008, nearly a year after Tanya's lies were first uncovered in the New York Times, Angelo goes to her home country of Spain. He finds her records from business school and realizes that she probably wasn't even in the U.S. on 9-11. He also tracks down one of Tanya's childhood friends,

who tells him that Tanya, quote, "'always had a problem with her imagination.'" Apparently, young Tanya told plenty of outrageous stories. The friend tells Angelo that Tanya had a fascination with America as well. Angelo learns that when Tanya was 18, she was in a gruesome car accident that briefly severed her arm.

She was left with heavy scarring. He assumes this is how she got away with lying about her arm nearly falling off while escaping the World Trade Center. There's something really twisted about this woman, obviously wanting to be famous in America and then using the most American patriotic type of tragedy to make her dream come true.

I mean, it's kind of genius in a crazy way. The American dream, baby. And Angelo is still frustrated by what Tanya did, but looking into her background helps him understand her a little better. And he finds that working on the documentary actually helps him process his own feelings. He eventually finishes the film and releases it in 2012.

He calls it The Woman Who Wasn't There. That's the documentary we heard from earlier where Janice tells her story. Over the following months, Tanya reaches out to a few of the survivors, asking if they'll stick by her. But nearly all of them ignore her. After that, she seems to vanish.

Until a couple of years later, when Angelo runs into her on the street in New York. According to him, she gives him the finger and then she runs away. For a few years, Tanya Head lived at the center of a national tragedy, and eventually her story unraveled. But she wasn't the only person who used 9-11 for personal gain. Next, we'll tell a different story of person who used 9-11 for personal gain. Next, we'll tell a different story of someone lying about 9-11 to insinuate himself into an equally traumatized community.

Stand up comedians. Hello, I'm Hannah. And I'm Suriti. And we are the hosts of Red Handed, a weekly true crime podcast. Every week on Red-Handed we get stuck into the most talked about cases. From Idaho student killings, the Delphi murders and our recent rundown of the Murdoch saga. Last year we also started a second weekly show, Shorthand, which is just an excuse for us to talk about anything we find interesting because it's our show and we can do what we like. We've covered the death of Princess Diana, an

unholy Quran written in Saddam Hussein's blood, the gruesome history of European witch hunting, and the very uncomfortable phenomenon of genetic sexual attraction. Whatever the case, we want to know what pushes people to the extremes of human behavior. Like, can someone give consent to be cannibalized? What drives a child to kill? And what's the psychology of a terrorist? Listen to Red Handed wherever you get your podcasts and access our bonus shorthand episodes exclusively on Amazon Music

or by subscribing to Wondry Plus in Apple podcasts or the Wondry app. Hey listeners, it's Will Arnett. Our podcast, Smartless, has crossed a milestone that seemed unfathomable when we started nearly four years ago as we've just released our 200th episode. Join us as we welcome the dynamic duo of hilarity Steve Martin and Martin Short. You've seen them on screen together in The Three Amigos, Father of the Bride 1 and 2,

and most recently, Only Murders in the Building. Both are comedic geniuses in their own right, but together they are always electric, and this episode of Smartless is no exception. I don't know if I've laughed more in a single episode than this one. We discussed their career arcs both separately and as a comedy team how they met, who is more difficult to work with, and what motivates them today.

Is Steve a better banjo player than Marty is a singer? Find out on this bi-centennial episode of SmartList. Follow SmartList in the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to SmartList ad free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Plus you get to hear Sean cry. What a loser!

In late 2001, aspiring comedian Steve Ronazisi moves to Los Angeles to pursue his dream. Steve is a cookie cutter white guy from Long Island. Aspiring comedian Steve Ronazizzi moves to Los Angeles to pursue his dream. Steve is a cookie cutter white guy from Long Island. He struggles to both stand out and fit in in the cutthroat world of LA comedy. He's trying to network but the clubs are loud, everyone's drunk, and he only has a few seconds to talk to people between sets. But when he tells people he just moved from New York, they all have one question. Were you there on 9-11?

Steve really wants to be liked. So he goes with it, and he says, yeah, I was in the towers. And people are fascinated. Suddenly, they seem drawn to him. I get why people would ask him if he was there, even though it's insensitive, because, like, if someone was there,

that was obviously an incredibly traumatic experience, and they probably have PTSD. But it's insane to just kind of run with it and be like, how close was I? Maybe I was there. Yeah. And it is true that Steve was in New York on 9-11. What's not true is that he was in the World Trade Center.

He was actually working in Midtown that day, a few miles away. But pretty soon, whether it's because of this backstory or not, Steve starts booking acting gigs. He gets a series of very minor roles, like on Punk'd and in Paul Blart, Mall Cop. Oh, and get this, he appears in a 2006 movie called World Trade Center. His character is named Account Manager. Yeah, it's incredible.

And it's also a bit ominous, because when Steve finally makes it big, he'll double down on his most daring performance yet. It's December 2009, eight years after Steve moved to LA. It seems like he's finally reached the big time. He's in Mark Maron's garage in Northeast LA, recording an episode of Mark's WTF podcast. Steve's in his early thirties and has taken on his final form

as an avatar of generic dude-ness. A few months ago Steve got his big break. He was cast as one of the leads in an FX sitcom called The League, which is about a bunch of grown adults who take their fantasy football league far too seriously. Steve is starring alongside other up-and-comers like Nick Kroll, Paul Shear, and Mark Duplass. The show premiered just a few weeks earlier, and Steve is helping get the word out. That's why he's here talking to Mark.

This is a few years before WTF gets so huge that even Barack Obama goes on, but it's still a pretty big deal. So Steve is probably a bit nervous, and maybe that's why he tells Mark this. I worked in Merrill Lynch for a year and a half until our building got hit with a plane, and... That's why he tells Mark this. I worked in Merrill Lynch for a year and a half until our building got hit with a plane and...

Oh, Christ. Yeah. Oh, my God. First of all, Merrill Lynch again. What is the Mandela effect here that's making people think Merrill Lynch operated in those towers? I think people just assume. Like, you know, you could just simply look up places that had offices there and pick one that exists.

And then being like, oh, yeah, a plane hit our building is so evil to just say it so casually. You weren't even there. Sarah, this is the weirdest part. Like, that is the full context of the clip. Steve basically forces 9-11 into the conversation. And by now, his story has gotten a lot more specific. He tells Mark that he was on the 54th floor

of the South Tower, and that after the first plane hit, he ran down to the street and heard the second plane hit. And then he says he ran to West Broadway and a cab driver tried to charge him $500 to get to Brooklyn. And he says that for hours, he thought that the attack was caused by two drunk pilots. This is even more upsetting when you know that Mark also lived in New York on 9-11 and he actually bonds with Steve by mentioning that his ex-wife worked in the area and was

traumatized. But Steve can do one better. He says that he was in an urban professional basketball league and that more than half of his teammates died during the 9-11 attack. And he says that his wife, who was his girlfriend at the time, also worked in the World Trade Center. Here's what he tells Mark. And what happened was I got walked home and then got to my apartment, caught my breath, you know, watched the news and then about an hour goes by, two hours, know her. And I'm like, oh, I have to call her parents and tell her she's dead.

-♪ Buzzing sound effect, laughter, and laughter. No. I mean, at least we know she's real. She's a real person. Was she actually, like, I don't... No, she's alive. They got married. So, his wife is in on this? No, I... Yeah, I mean...

I'm just, like, so confused. Like, she knows he was not there. Now his wife is implicated in this. This guy's already on a show. He does not need to tell this lie. Like he doesn't need to become more famous. He's in the room. Well, with this interview,

Steve doubles down on being the 9-11 guy. And after the league takes off, he gets more attention than ever. And this is when he seems to realize that he's at risk of his lie being exposed. Steve later describes a growing sense of dread, knowing that he'll eventually be caught in his lie. So he tries to backpedal.

In one interview from December 2011, two years after the WTF appearance, he dodges questions by saying that he's very sensitive to 9-11 and that he doesn't wanna to seem like he's, quote, cashing in. At one point, he even corrects an interviewer who says that Steve was in the South Tower. Steve says, no, he was just working downtown. To be clear, this is still a lie, but at least it's a little closer to the truth. But as Steve makes moves in his career,

people will start to pay more attention and And the result will make it clear. He is out of his league. It's September 2015, and Steve's comedy career is bigger than ever. He recently landed a deal as a national spokesperson for a chain that has a very Steve energy, Buffalo Wild Wings. And Comedy Central is about to put out his new special,

Breaking Dad, in reference to his two young sons. Steve is probably hyped when the New York Times sets out to do a story about him in the lead up to the special. But soon enough, he gets an ominous request for comment from the reporter, a guy named Serge Kovalesky. Oh my god, the Grim Reaper, it's over for you. Yeah. Serge says that he's been looking into Steve's so-called origin story. He's confirmed that Steve never worked at Merrill Lynch,

and remember, Merrill Lynch didn't even have offices in the World Trade Center in 2001. He asked Steve, in what I am sure was a very polite, journalistic, New York Timesian way, to explain himself. Initially, Steve has no comment. But he's been living with this lie for long enough that it seems like he's almost relieved for the opportunity to come clean.

He consults with his publicist, and before putting out a statement, he makes a call to confess to one specific person. That's right, he calls Mark Maron to apologize. After that, Steve gives Serge his comment. Can you read what he says? Yeah, it says, "'I was not at the Trade Center on that day.

"'I don't know why I said this. "'This was inexcusable. "'I am truly, truly sorry.'" I think that he kind of does know why he said this. I think he does too. Well, Comedy Central puts out a statement saying it is disappointed in Steve. Steve ultimately loses his sponsorship deal with Buffalo Wild Wings.

FX puts out a statement saying they believe he's sincere and will still air the last season of the league as intended. Though that's maybe because they've already filmed most of it. But the strangest part of Steve's comeuppance takes the form of something much more mundane. A comedy beef. The morning the time story runs, Pete Davidson is in a recording studio. He's tall and real thin with unkempt black hair. And at just 21 years old, he's one of the youngest comedians to ever be cast on Saturday Night Live.

Pete grew up in Staten Island and his father was a firefighter. On the morning of September 11th, his dad rushed into a hotel near the World Trade Center to look for survivors, moments before the building collapsed. Pete's mom waited several days to tell her seven-year-old son that his father had died. The loss had a huge impact on Pete's life, so understandably he's pretty mad when he finds out that Steve, a fellow comedian, has been lying about his 9-11 story. Today, Pete is appearing on the serious XM radio show Opie and Jim Norton.

He tells the hosts that he wants to talk about Steve's lie. He says that he's actually a fan of Steve's comedy and that he reached out to him a few years back. But when he did, something felt a little off. Here's what he tells the hosts. I tweeted him saying, Hey, Hurt, you got into comedy because of 9-11. I think that's really cool. And then he tweeted me back something like that.

And I was always like, what a weird response. Yeah, that is a really weird response. I would be like, what are you talking about? Either is or it isn't, dude. Yeah, it would send me into a tailspin. Well, later on, Pete and the hosts are joined by another guest, a guy who's here to promote a movie and is now being

forced to talk about 9-11, actor Elijah Wood. And Sarah, Elijah actually is pretty kind to Steve. He gives him the benefit of the doubt, saying, at least Steve apologized publicly. And now he's just getting piled on by people on the internet. But he's not sorry. But there is this thing that's a little dangerous about the internet where there's this sort of like mob mentality.

Even if someone's done something heinous, it can get to the point where, you know, it becomes harmful to their life. You know, Elijah Wood is a sweetie through and through. I mean, he's making a good point. This guy's gonna suffer. May as well just leave it alone. Right. But it is clear that Pete is still angry about it. Because later that morning, he tweets, It's okay, at Steve Ranazisi. People make mistakes. Can't wait to meet my dad for lunch later.

Steve, somehow still not getting it, tweets a thank you to Pete. And Pete responds, quote, Dude, please delete this tweet. I don't want people to think you're a moron. You're way smarter than that. Oh, that is so embarrassing. How do you come back from that? Well, Pete does eventually encourage people to back off of Steve.

He moves on. Sarah, not sure if you've maybe heard anything about what Pete's been up to in the last few years, but today, Steve still regularly works as a standup, but his acting career seems to have stalled. Maybe his apology just wasn't a convincing performance. Steve seems to have gotten off relatively light after being exposed as a liar. But remember Jordan, the South Carolina firefighter we talked about earlier in this episode?

Well, he didn't get off so easy. Well, he didn't get off so easy. Behind every successful business is a story, and some of them might surprise you. Like how Chobani's first yogurt factory was discovered on a piece of junk mail, or how the founder of the multi-million dollar cosmetics brand, Drunk Elephant, was told by everyone, including her own mother, that the name sounded like a dive bar. I'm Guy Raz, and on my show How I Built This, I talk to founders behind the world's biggest companies and brands to learn the real stories of how they built them.

In each episode, you'll hear entrepreneurs share moments of doubt and failure, and talk about how they were able to overcome them on their way to the top. How I Built This is like a master class in innovation and creativity. A how-to guide for navigating life's challenges from the people who've done it all. Follow How I Built This on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to How I Built This early and ad-free right now on Wondery Plus. And I feel like a legend In February 2012, about five months after Jordan's big speech, New York firefighters

learned about it. And they were livid because they were actually there on 9-11 and they know that Jordan wasn't. Say what you will about New Yorkers, but we know how to hold a grudge and how to end one. The firefighters immediately started writing to newspapers in South Carolina to voice their displeasure. They also called Jordan himself. The actual captain of the station Jordan claimed

to have led called Jordan's wife, and he tells her that her husband is a, quote, clown and an imposter. Oh, brother, I'm getting so much secondhand embarrassment. Well, the day after the story breaks, Jordan resigns from his volunteer firefighter role, as well as his leadership positions in local civic groups. His Irish Catholic club loses its permit

for a St. Patrick's Day parade, and he admits that he made the whole 9-11 thing up. He attributes his big terrible lie to ego and, quote, trying to fit in and be one of the guys. He also says that it just spiraled out of control and became a lie I had to live. I mean, on one hand I get that like the second you say you were there at 9-11, you can't really take it back. But you can stop benefiting from it and telling more people and making speeches and stuff, right? Well, the people we've talked about who lie about 9-11 seem to have done it mostly for attention. But there is another kind of 9-11 liar out there.

Someone looking to gain power and political clout, and maybe even the presidency. Sarah, as you know, Donald Trump is usually a supporting character on our show, mostly because he's just been around so many other people's scams. But Trump's history of lying about 9-11 is pretty incredible, even for him. He actually started lying about 9-11 on 9-11. In the midst of the ongoing tragedy, he took time to claim, falsely, that without the World Trade Center, one of his buildings was now the tallest in Manhattan. Over the years, he's told a bunch of lies about 9-11.

Like, he said that he saw people jumping from the World Trade Center even though he was in Trump Tower, several miles away. And he said that he helped at ground zero, which is a claim heavily disputed by people who were actually there. But Trump's biggest and most consistent 9-11 lie is that he saw thousands of Muslims cheering and dancing in New Jersey, celebrating the attack. Yeah, that was a lie that was peddled around quite a lot. Like I didn't even know that he was one of the main people saying it, because it was something that you would hear

all the time. And I was like, show me. No one can show me this. Well, Trump gets called out over this in 2015, and he only has one source that he says backs up his claim, an article by Serge Kovalevsky. Oh my gosh. Now, Serge's 2001 reporting does not say

what Trump says it does. He wrote that the FBI investigated reports that the celebration happened, but they couldn't find any evidence. And Serge clarifies this, publicly. But when he does, Trump says this. You gotta see this guy. Oh, I don't know what I said. Ah, I don't remember.

As Trump says this, he's flailing his arms around, mocking Serge's physical disability, which limits mobility in his right arm. The incident helps cement Trump as a hero to American bigots, kind of like his false claim that Barack Obama was born in Kenya. Trump is just one of many who have used 9-11 to feed into pre-existing prejudices and gain power.

It's maybe the most disturbing and far-reaching way that people have used this twisted trend. What is it about 9-11 that has caused so many different people to lie about their connection to it? It's hard to make sense of this even for people like us who talk about scammers for a living. We wanted to know more so we called in an expert. Dr. Jean Kim is a psychiatrist who studies personality disorders, and she coined a term to refer to this exact phenomenon, the 9-11 sign. I was in training as a resident in New York City when it happened, and we were all really sad and dealt with the fallout of it psychologically.

But I also noticed a darker pattern cropping up where patients would bring up that they had a relative who died there or someone they knew who was in the buildings. And you would know after a while in the course of their telling their story that it wasn't possible, that it wasn't true. So the 9-11 sign seemed to happen in people who were really quick

to try to get some kind of sympathy or attention. And we've also talked about people who have lied for attention on this show. But Jean says that 9-11 attracts more liars because it was such a singular event. It was such a concentrated event. It happened before our eyes. We all watched it on TV together. We all kind of shared and experienced it together. That type of event or tragedy is the perfect cover for someone who wants to garner sympathy

and yet get protection because people will naturally back off, give you the benefit of the doubt because that's the right thing to do in most cases for someone going through that. That sense of communal sympathy all ties back to one of our favorite themes on this show, fitting in. 9-11 was a national tragedy that did bring a lot of Americans together, and it really concentrated an ideal of American-ness. And maybe that's why it's been so helpful for politicians like Trump and why Tanya, who loved and was obsessed with America, used it to create a new identity. Jean thinks that might be why some people wanted to lie about having been part of such a historic event.

I think it brought this sense of togetherness for a brief moment. And I think that's what's maybe driving some of why these people seek or end up lying about it to get that sense of togetherness and connection that they never had. So there's something sad, I think, behind people who lie about this event. Sarah, after all of this, like, what would you say if someone told you they survived 9-11? I mean, I would probably not say anything to them, but then go home and Google them and figure out

if they were telling the truth or not at this point. I mean, this was all just so dark and twisted. Like, so many people who actually did survive or have family who died in 9-11, they would do anything for that to not be their reality. And these people were jumping at the chance to be like, hey, feel bad for me. It's so interesting that all these people picked a particular tragedy

where it's so politically charged that you can't really even ask any follow-up questions. You can't cast aspersions on the story. You can't do anything. You just have to be like, okay, I take your word for it. Cool. Yeah, that's what makes things so hard. It's like, you know, there are so many times just in regular life where you hear someone say something that seems a little bit off, but you don't want to be the kind of person who distrusts people when they talk about something traumatic. Like that's the number one thing you don't want to be. And I think in so many of these scammer stories, when there's a tragic incident involved, it's hard to follow the instinct to be like,

hey, can you tell me more about that? Because you risk re-traumatizing someone and calling them a liar if they're telling the truth. Yeah. I feel like all these people also were lacking something very fundamental, which is a fucking personality. And so they were like, I know, I'll borrow it from this tragedy. I'll become interesting by talking about something

that everybody knows about. It's clear shorthand. It tells you exactly where I'm coming from and it tells you that I have lived. And instead of just being people, they use this. Yeah, of course. It's like, you know, you see that with people who even did actually experience something bad

where it becomes the main focus of everything about them and You know using a type of pain to wield some sort of power and being able to cause more pain I think is like also a huge thing. It's a power move. It's a big power move and I remember what it was like back then, you know being in Canada and watching American TV like everything was so patriotic it mattered more than anything else in the world that 9-11 happened. And I could see why an American would want to bring themselves closer to that,

because it was this thing everyone was rallying around. People loved Giuliani, you know? It was like such a different time. And a part of me does get it as far as looking at the bigger picture. Yeah, I mean, it's just a really effective weapon against criticism or reality. Yeah, it's an effective weapon because you could shut people down. Like, people use 9-11 all the time to shut down criticism of America or American foreign policy.

Like, imagine being able to embody that as a person. This like, you survived something, therefore you could shut down anything. And it's kind of like it was brought up a bit before, but Americans turning on Muslims and survivors being like very openly anti-Muslim. Like there was that whole thing with the ground zero mosque. And you know what I mean? I do think it was used to push forward a point of view and make being racist okay in some ways. Sarah, do you have any tips for what you or I or a listener should do if they encounter someone they think is lying about 9-11?

I mean, I feel like we will probably encounter people who've lied about very big things in our real life. You know what? Anytime you do hear about someone who's lived a lie, you're always kind of like, I knew something was off. But also, I don't know if that's kind of like a lie you make up in your head to convince yourself that you weren't stupid. But I don't know. I think the lesson here is, if you want to lie for attention, there are less evil ways to do it. You know, there's like funnier lies to tell for attention. Lie about your height.

Lie about your interests. Lie about your sexual history. I've been doing that for a very long time. Pretend you were in the circus or something. Everybody knows 9-11. Lie about an obscure tragedy. Exactly. If you're struggling with seeming interesting,

you should talk about how you were there during the triangle waste shirt factory explosion. And people will be like, wow, what's that? And then you'll get to talk about it. And people will tune out most of it. And so they'll just assume you're telling the truth. Lie about being an extra in a movie, but you were cut out of it.

Something like that, you know? Yeah, find better lies, cowards. This is 9-11, liars. Never forget, never forgive. I'm Saatchi Cole. And I'm Sarah Hagge. If you have a tip for us on a story that you think we should cover,

please email us at scamflucers at wondery.com. We use many sources in our research. A few that were particularly helpful were the documentary, The Woman Who Wasn't There by Angelo Guielmo and the book, The Woman Who Wasn't There, The True Story of an Incredible Deception by Angelo and Robin Gabby Fisher. Local reporting by Lynn Shackelford for the Spartanburg Herald Journal, Trump commemorates 9-11 first responders by making it all about him by Aaron Rupar for Vox, and Serge Kovalesky and David Dunlap's reporting for the New York Times. Thanks to

doctors Jean Kim and Chris Chabris for talking to us for this episode. Our story editor Eric Thurm wrote this episode. Additional writing by us, Sachi Cole and Sarah Hagge. Sarah Eni is our story editor and senior producer. Back checking by Gabrielle Drolet. Sound design by James Morgan. Additional audio assistance provided by Adrian Tapia. Our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Freeze On Sync. Our managing producers are Desi Blaylock and Matt Gant.

Janine Cornelow and Stephanie Jens are our development producers. Our associate producers are Charlotte Miller and Lexi Peary. Our producers are John Reed, Yasmin Ward, and Kate Young. Our senior producers are Ginny Bloom and Jen Swan. Our executive producers are Jenny Lauer Beckman, Marshall Louie, and Erin O'Flaherty. For Wondry. Enhance your listening experience with Wondry+. Enjoy ad-free listening, exclusive content, binges, and more.

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