Scamfluencers - The Memory Maker | Part II

Episode Date: March 6, 2023

Teal Swan’s self-help empire is on the rise, and so is the backlash to some of her most controversial techniques. Teal fights back against her critics, releasing long rebuttals and detailed explainers on YouTube. She even invites a film crew to document her life and hires a private investigator to prove she’s got nothing to hide. But when the findings come out, things will get even more complicated. If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health, the U.S. National Suicide Prevention Lifeline can be reached at 1-800-273-8255. The U.S. National Alliance on Mental Illness is available at 1-800-950-6264. If you or someone you know is a victim of sexual assault, you can contact the National Sexual Assault Hotline in the US by calling 1-800-656-4673. That's 1-800-656-4673. Support us by supporting our sponsors!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to scamful answers ad-free on Amazon music. Download the app today. A heads up to our listeners. Today's episode discusses mental health issues and suicide. Listen with care. [♪ Music playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in You're someone who loves power. That's not deny it. Correct. If you were a cult leader, what would your non-negotiables be for your followers?

Everybody has to remark loudly and often about how good looking I am. Okay, I'm not asking for a lot. You could start right now. Why do I need to be a cult leader for that to happen? You could do it today. Okay, I literally tell you all the time that you're beautiful. I know that is true. It makes me really uncomfortable.

Well, mine would definitely be that my followers have to make sure I'm always well fed. Oh, that's a go-and-to. Yeah. Okay. We would have a great cult if you and I ever got, you know, active enough to do that. Yeah, if we took the initiative. Well, for someone like Teal Swan, who some people think is a bit of a cult leader, it seems like her biggest non-negotiable is complete and unwavering loyalty, which means never having to hear she's wrong, ever.

And as you can imagine, that does not go well. It's January 2014, and Teal Swan is on a beach in Santa Barbara, California. She's wearing a white dress and staring into the eyes of her new husband, Sardipe Singh Swan. I actually have a picture of them from this day. Sachi, please describe it to us. Okay, Sardipe seems like a nice guy. He's got a big, manly jaw. Handsome guy. He's like, handsome guy.

And he is wearing like a casual bridal outfit, I would say. And they're standing outside and they're kissing. Yeah, they look like a lovely, beautiful couple. They look like a very nice couple that my father would quietly criticize, yes, correct. Well, Teelmeth Sardeeep, just just a few weeks earlier when he was hired as her bodyguard for one of her workshops in London. But this wasn't just a random gig for him. As he says later in a video Teal posts online, I came across Teal's teachings about a year ago maybe and I thought she'd absolutely

fantastic, I thought she was very interesting. So I started to watch all her videos and then I sort of decided that I wanted to meet her. Oh, don't. Yeah, I mean, it's never a good sign when you kind of stand someone with the intention of meeting them. It's a very unleveled playing field. Yeah, it never works. And Sargeep starts appearing in some of the vlogs Teal films at her house in Park City, Utah. And a Facebook post Teal announces she's taking her husband's last name. Sachi, can you read what she wrote?

Yes, she writes that quote, there is deep spiritual significance to this decision. It is a more exalted name. Sardeepe is from India, and there, the Swan has great spiritual significance. Okay, you're Indian, correct. Is this something that you've heard? Is it something that you know about?

I don't know. I don't know. I can call my dad, you want me to call my dad, and I can ask him. No, let me text him real quick and ask. Do swans have any significance? I feel like the response he'll give is a whole podcast episode. text him real quick and ask do swans have any significance? I feel like the response he'll give is a whole podcast episode.

That's worth asking. So I'll just move on. You will be shocked to hear that Teel and Sardeeb's marriage gets rocky fast. They split up, but in a blog post on her website, Teel announces she's keeping his last name. And so our deep tells Vice TV that in hindsight, Teal may have had an ulterior motive for wanting to be with him. It was a brilliant marketing tool for her to have someone with a British accent, but also with an Indian background. It legitimized her in the new age sort of community. 100%.

I'm glad he sees it. I'm glad he saw it in record time. Good for him. Yeah. I'm glad he was able to clock it. Well, but speaking of him and his swan last name, my dad texted me back. And he wrote back, it seems Sarswethy, the goddess of knowledge and creative arts has a swan as a ride.

It is said if somebody has a melodious voice that Sarswethy is actually residing in that person's throat, it's a great compliment. Someone else has to give you that name. Someone else has to tell you you are a Swan to me. You can't just be like, I'm a Swan. I mean, I don't know, maybe you can, maybe you and I need to start doing that. Well, Sardeep's not the only person close to Teal who has serious problems with what she's doing. Teal's focused on building a global movement, and to do that, she has to battle haters who accuser of leading a cult and preaching dangerous messages about suicide. And it's starting to seem like the greatest threat

to her growing empire might just come from within. I love my kid, but is a new comedy parenting podcast from Wondry that shares a refreshingly honest and insightful take on parenting. Each week the host will share a parenting story that will have you laughing and thinking, yes, I have absolutely been there. Listen to, I love my kid, but on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Many involved in crypto saw Sandbankman Freed as a breath of fresh air from the usual Wall Street buffs. But in just one month, his crypto exchange would collapse.

From Bloomberg and Wondery comes Spellcaster, a new six-part docuseries about the wild rise and fall of FTX and its founder, Sandbankman Freed. Listen to Spellcaster on Amazon, or wherever you get your podcasts. From Wondery, I'm Sarah Haggi, and I'm Sachi Cole. And this is Scam Fluncers. You're like a legend. In our last episode, we followed Teal as she embraced her extra sensory gifts and built a self-help empire in the early years of YouTube and social media.

Teal's platform with millions of followers is impressive and controversial. She's been criticized for talking about suicide as a quote, reset button. And some of her teachings are based on discredited techniques for uncovering repressed memories of childhood abuse. Critics say she may be leading vulnerable people to create memories of things that never actually happened, and some claim Teal holds an almost cult-like sway over her most loyal followers.

As Teal's star rises, so does the backlash. This is the Memory Maker Part 2. It's December 2016, and Teal Swan is standing in a lush green yard in Costa Rica. She's filming a video to announce that she's opening a new retreat center here. I am completely in love with this place. We were divinely led here. I set foot on this property in thin two minutes. I knew that this place was meant for not only myself, but for a lot of people that were looking for healing around the world.

So this topical paradise is the Phylia Center. It's a place where she can host spiritual retreats and walk her followers through a psychological technique she created. She outlines it in her third book, The Completion Process, the practice of putting yourself back together again. The completion process starts with identifying a current emotional trigger, and then trying to remember the first time you ever felt that way. It's about healing your inner child so you can move on from trauma. It's about healing your inner child so you can move on from trauma. Around this time, Teal posts a video demonstrating the process.

In it, Teal's video chatting with a young woman who has short brown hair. She's wearing a purple tank top with ruffles, and she's sitting in what looks like her bedroom. After making some small talk, Teal dives right in. So we gotta get you triggered. This is what I wanted to do. I want to, I want to think about the thing that's causing me the most pain in your life and start talking to me about it. So she, I just want to be clear. She is very much saying the quiet part loud all the time. Yes. I mean, okay. It's so wild to be like, let's get you triggered babe.

The woman tells Teal that she finds it hard to connect with people in groups. She feels unworthy and freezes up. When Teal asks her about the first time she felt this way, she describes an image that comes to her, a baby alone in a crib. Teal asks her to take on the baby's perspective and describe how she feels. The woman says she feels alone, and Te till tells her she's experiencing a memory of emotional neglect, and that this likely happened a lot during her childhood. After about an hour, till ends a session by thanking the woman for being vulnerable and telling her that she loves her.

Is it bad that one of my red flags is if somebody tells me they love me? Too early or too often? Like, what do you mean? I think this whole thing is that, you know, people think that if you tell them secrets about your life, that's the same thing as intimacy. So yeah, and it's not. But this video clearly resonates with people.

It racks up more than 100,000 views on YouTube. But the approach is controversial. Most psychologists agree that by trying to, quote, recover old memories, you can actually implant false ones. And Teel's not a licensed mental health practitioner. But in her book, she says her experience as a patient undergoing trauma therapy makes her qualified to develop

her own practice and treat clients. Teal's convinced that her completion process is a revolutionary, but if she's the only one who knows how to leave clients through it, and its reach is limited, so she comes up with a plan to expand her empire. Not long after opening the Philia Center, Teal starts a certification program. Anyone who's interested can apply, no background in psychology or counseling required. Those who are accepted pay $3,400 for a four-day course taught by Teal, often at the Philia Center in Costa Rica.

And no, airfare is not included. I have a journalism degree from an okay Canadian journalism university. I'm not saying my degree is important, but I will say that full semester at that school cost as much as this four day quarter. I don't know which one's worth more, honestly, it's a toss up. And you know, like four days, I don't think it's enough. Oh, four days is not enough for anything. Even if you're going on vacation for four days,

the first day you're still stressed, and the last day you're starting to get out of there. Yeah. And when they complete the course, their certificate is signed by Teal and seemingly stamped with the Utah State Seal. Dozens of people get certified and start taking on clients of their own.

Some of them even make their own YouTube videos to share the techniques they use. This video is all about the completion process and how it can change your life. Today I have a special episode for my fellow CP practitioners and especially for all the new ones that would like to have a bit more insight from an experienced practitioner. What Teal's followers don't know is that the Utah State Seal on their certificates is forged and

Utah isn't exactly happy about it. According to the Gateway podcast, the state of Utah sends Teal a cease and desist and a $500 fine for practicing without a license. But judging by her Facebook posts from around this time, she just keeps practicing. And soon she'll face an even bigger threat to her business. More and more people are publicly questioning her methods and accusing her of running a cult. In October, 2017, a documentary called Open Shadow, the story of Teal Swan gets released online.

The documentary paints her as a survivor of abuse who, against the odds, turned her pain and trauma into a kind of superpower. The director, Paola Marino, spent three years embedded with Teal and her followers. Paula isn't a believer, but she is fascinated by Teal's personality and passion. And Paula has incredible access. She even convinces Teal's parents to do an interview which is rare.

They don't speak about her ritual abuse story on the record, but here's what her mom does say about Doc, the veteran Aryan Teal says abused her for 13 years. We trusted somebody and his wife that we shouldn't have trusted. And that's the cautionary tale for everyone that it can happen right under your nose and you don't know it. Okay, well it does seem like her parents believe that she was abused by Doc. And I'm not saying that he didn't abuse her. I just have doubts about him sowing her into a body. I mean, it's clear her family accepts that something very bad happened to her.

Yeah. And I don't know for sure, but it seems like Teal's thrilled about Open Shadow. At least, she seems inspired by the chance to speak directly to the concerns that her critics are posting online. Here's what she tells a documentary film cameras. I think for the sake of a good bout of self-exposure here,

I will tell you that the most painful thing that a human being could say to somebody who came through a cult experience is that they're leading cult. It's my least favorite thing that people say about me. It destroys me. And haters have slammed tools approach to suicide, even calling her the suicide catalyst. They pointed the experience of Leslie Wains guard. She's a woman we talked about

in the last episode. She was one of Teal's earliest clients and supporters who took her own life. Critics also bring up testimony from others who talk to Teal about suicide. Up to this point, Teal's strategy has been to not engage with her critics, but the pushback has gotten so intense she feels like she has to respond directly. So the same month the documentary is released, Teal makes a nearly two hour long YouTube video responding to the more serious allegations. What I'm facing is not just people slandering me. What I'm facing is people who are actually actively ruining my contracts and actively ruining my life.

In the video, she's wearing a white dress buttoned up to her neck. And she looks anxious, annoyed, and maybe even a little angry. Teal claims people tank the ratings of her books online and even call the police to report her. In the same video, Teal addresses the claim that her work has caused people to take their own lives. My strategies with how to do a suicide are abnormal because it's an abnormal condition. One of the most crucial things that you have to do is to realize that yes, you are at a choice point.

It is your life. You get to decide whether to take it or not. Unless you realize that it's your choice, you can't actually consciously commit to life. Teal claims people tank the ratings of her books online and even call the police to report her. She says she wants to be judged on her content, not all the controversy around her and her personal story. She adds disclaimers to some of her videos, like about how she's not providing medical

advice. She also includes information on how to reach suicide hotlines. And in September 2019, she uploads a YouTube video called Teal Swan Stance on Suicide. In it, she says, To be crystal clear, I'm against suicide. Teel has forged her own path as a type of DIY, New Age guru who interacts with real people on an extremely personal level. But as her niche following grows,

so does the criticism. Teel's in major brand crisis mode. She needs her inner circle to have her back. But when she tries to gain her biggest audience yet, it backfires in ways she could have never predicted. And I feel like a... In July 2020, a little less than a year after Teal uploaded a video about her stance on suicide, a new member joins her intentional community in Utah. Her name is Juliana and she's from Bavaria in Southern Germany.

She's got long blonde hair and blue eyes. Juliana's main connection to Teal and to Utah is Blake. Sachee, do you remember Blake from our last episode? Yeah, like Teal was dating him or courting him or something like that, right? Yeah, he was her first ever follower. She showed up in his bathtub that one night when he was gone

and they dated for a year and then continued work relationships in sense. That's it. where she showed up in his bathtub that one night when he was gone, and they dated for a year, and then continued work relationships in-cent. That's it. Well, Juliana met Blake in 2017 at one of Tills' workshops in Germany. They hit it off and kept in touch, and eventually developed a long-distance relationship. After a couple of years, Blake asked Juliana

to come to Utah to live with him, and Juliana decided to make the leap. This is a major deal in the world of Teal Swan. Blake is a big part of Teal's social media presence, and he has his own kind of following with Teal's fans. People thank him for saving Teal's life, and now he's bringing someone new into the mix. Juliana's arrival also leads to a major change at Teal Swan headquarters. After nearly two decades of living with Teal, Blake moves into a new apartment with Juliana.

But Teal's nervous about letting Juliana into her inner circle. She tells Blake that he's taking a big risk. Anyone can decide to turn on Teal and tarnish her reputation online. Just like Sardeeb and Jared did. This is like classic abuser stuff. Like if you open your circle, anybody could take you away from me.

Yeah, and I can see how Teal can frame it as, you know, I have all these enemies and people are coming after me. You have to protect me. And also like, how do I know she's not going to just say shit about me online. you know, I have all these enemies and people are coming after me. You have to protect me. And also like, how do I know she's not going to just say shit about me online with all this access she has into our lives or leak something? Yeah.

Well, despite her reservations, Tiel welcomes Juliana into the fold. She blogs about Juliana saying she's brave and fierce for moving to Utah. And when Blake decides to ask Giuliana to marry him, Teal helps him figure out Giuliana's ring size and plan a proposal in a hot air balloon. In November 2020, four months after Giuliana moved to Utah, she and Blake tied a knot. She wears a long-sleeved lacy gown and a tiara.

They beam in each other's arms. Juliana is ready to start a new life with Blake. But being Blake's partner means being super close to Teal. And she may not be ready for what joining Teal's tribe really means. Around this time, a documentary crew starts recording Teals every move. The filmmaker is named John Casby, and he's working on a mini-series for a major network.

Teals clearly on edge about her haters, but she probably sees this film as a way to defend herself, to show that she has nothing to hide. So she allows the camera's access to her inner circle. The camera crew captures Juliana facing the stark reality of being part of Teal's world. At some point, Teal reportedly even introduces requirements for her followers. Rules they agree to live by that are non-negotiable. Former followers say it basically boils down to this. Teal and her work always come first.

Before family, before friends, before everything. Teal tells Juliana that she can't even travel home to Germany to see her family. Teal, by the way, later says in a video that she never discouraged Juliana from seeing or communicating with her family. But the people and Teal's inner circle aren't just making an intense emotional investment.

They're also working seemingly for free. They're making content, building Teals website, and marketing her worldwide tours. Jennings Brown, the journalist who hosted the Gateway podcast, all about Teals Swan, told us he had concerns about labor exploitation when he visited Teal's Philia Center in Costa Rica.

There were people that had kind of left their lives behind that were there working for her for free just all day. I mean, you never knew when you'd have to kind of drop everything and do some sort of shadow work with Teal and just as a journalist observing it, it was just psychically draining, emotionally draining. Teal's videos talk about maintaining healthy personal boundaries. And just as the journal is observing, it was just psychically draining, emotionally draining. Teal's videos talk about maintaining healthy personal boundaries. But when it comes to the team of volunteers making her workshops run,

it seems there aren't any. Everything is about Teal and what she needs. And under that kind of constant pressure to please her, some cracks are beginning to show. to please her, some cracks are beginning to show. Juliana's transition into Teal's inner circle is not going smoothly. One day, the documentary film crew captures a tense moment between Teal and Juliana. They're in a room at the Phylia Center in Costa Rica.

They're colorful frequency paintings all over the yellow walls, and let's just say, Tila's vibrating at an especially intense frequency right now. She's going off on her haters, pissed that people are questioning her methods, and arguing that some of the criticism is sexist. Blake shifts in his chair. It looks like he's just waiting for Teal's rant to end. Juliana stares up awkwardly at the ceiling like she wants to teleport out of the room. And then Teal and Juliana erupt into a tense argument. Basically, Juliana pushes back against Teal's aggressive teaching methods. Until doesn't take it so well. She's seething, her jaw locked.

doesn't take it so well. She's seething, her jaw locked. Juliana glances at Blake looking to see if he's got her back, but he doesn't say anything. At least from what we see in the documentary, he strokes his beard visibly uncomfortable. Teal, his chosen family, the person he's been loyal to for so long, is lashing out at his wife. Okay, Blake better buck up for his wife by hope that's how this ends. Well, later, Teal calls a group meeting with her inner circle to discuss the problems she's having with Juliana, who's also in the room. They're all sitting on the floor,

Teal's cross-legged barefoot, and she launches right in. Here's how the scene plays out in the docuseries, the deep end. I am really angry today. I basically realized in the last few days that it's because of personal truth is not actually being shared. Juliana, that's what's happening with you.

You feel like an adversary to me and I need that to change. I do not like the tone of this person's voice, but I can also see how this tone would be scary. If you were like in this woman's fold and you kind of believe her bullshit and your whole life is wrapped up in it, your husband's wrapped up in it, this would make me nervous.

Yeah, and when she says something like a personal truth is not actually being shared, she means my personal truth. Right. And it seems like the second you kind of push back, you are her adversary. Yeah. Well, Teal says that Juliana has been insulting her since a day she arrived in Utah, that it's quote, all over her energy field.

Juliana says she's afraid. And Teal says she has a reason to be. Blake's eyes are fixed on Juliana as she speaks, but for a moment, he looks back to Teal. She looks like she's out for blood. She goes around the room and asks her inner circle what they think, and they tell Teal what she wants to hear, that Juliana is threatened by Teal and jealous.

Teal has contested her portrayal in the deep end, saying that many scenes were edited out of context for the sake of entertainment. The way it plays out in this scene, Blake rubs his face in disbelief. His legs are crossed, and he's sort of swaying. Eventually, he crosses a room to sit next to Juliana, who seems devastated. Blake looks like he's about to cry. He spent nearly 20 years by teal's side, but after this blowup, he decides he no longer wants to be involved. It's a big deal. Up to this point, he's played a huge role in Teal's company, her online community and

her social media presence. After he leaves, Teal decides she needs to do some serious damage control. But what she does next will only make things more complicated. Private investigator Molly Manna-Han sits down at her computer and logs into a meeting from her home in Bellingham, Washington. Molly is a grandmotherly type with short gray hair, glasses, and red lipstick. And this is a big meeting for her. It's finally time to reveal the findings to her client.

Teal's own team actually hired Molly to look into allegations that Teal is running a cult. Okay, so Teal hired her to look into Teal? Yes. Teal's team is probably hoping to put the allegations to bed, ones, and for all. And to show the world, they're doing their due diligence. Molly worked on a case about an alleged cult before. A spiritual teacher in Washington State hired her to do a report on one of his critics, and Molly's report found no evidence of a crime and calls their biggest critic a malicious cyber stalker. For this investigation,

Molly seemingly got unparalleled access to members of Teals Inner Circle, including Blake. She also talked to former followers like Teal's ex-boyfriend Jared and people who've been critical of her online. Now, after nearly a year-long investigation, Molly's ready to deliver her verdict. In the docu-series a deep end, Molly and Teal connect over a video chat. Teal's sitting on a couch next to her PR manager. She's draped in a shawl and wearing dangly turquoise earrings. Molly reminds Teal that she was hired to answer two critical questions that she caused suicide and is she leading a cult. After a brief pause Molly delivers her verdict. No, and maybe,

Teal's blue eyes widened in surprise. Molly can tell that this is not what she was expecting to hear. She says she finds no evidence that Teal has caused anyone to die by suicide. But she goes through the list of things that caused her to suspect Teal may be running a cult. For example, the condition she puts on people coming to work for her.

At some point in her investigation, it appears that Molly was provided a document of these rules, literally called Teal's non-negotiables. They include Teal's expectations that people close to her prioritize Teal over their own family. That they aren't allowed to have personal boundaries that affect Teal in any way, and that if people want to have a normal life,

they should not choose to be a part of her inner circle. Teal seemingly does not take this well. She gets visibly frustrated with Molly on the call and denies that she limits her followers' relationships or pressures them to prioritize her above almost everything else. Well, I mean, Teal has no one to blame but herself. She hired this woman to do this. Yeah, I mean, also, it's in your non-negotiable steal. What are you talking about? Clearly. After she hangs up the call, Molly probably feels a sense of relief wash over her.

She's done with the hard part, breaking the news to Teal. But her words have fallen on deaf ears, and she suspects her findings will never see the light of day. But there is someone watching that call. In fact, an entire documentary crew. And they'll make the explosive exchange public, creating the greatest threat yet to Teal's reputation. When the Dock You series The Deep End comes out on Hulu in May 2022, it gets a lot of press. Everyone from the Washington Post to Joe Rogan is talking about it. At times, Teal comes across as a new age mean girl.

It shows how being in Teal's orbit can be psychologically challenging for the people closest to her. Teal is not happy with how she's portrayed. She fires back in a series of Facebook videos. She argues that the editing in the first episode of the deep end is misleading, that it makes her come off as hard,

dismissive, domineering, jealous, and angry. This episode did not show my softness, receptivity, workability, work humility. It didn't show the reality of my multifaceted personality. In another response video, she says, I admit that just like anyone I can get angry, but they showed my anger totally out of context to tell a story that is in true,

especially about my relationship with Blake and Juvellana. She says she feels misunderstood, and she probably feels betrayed too after trusting the film crew and giving them full access to her life and her community. She even leaks a video of the filmmaker, John Casby, wishing her a happy birthday. Hope you're having a great day. I speak for the whole film crew when I say,

we have so much appreciation and gratitude to you and everyone on your team for welcoming us into your lives and into your family. Uh, yeah, this is how documentary crews talk to their subjects. When they want to maintain access, I think it's bad. I don't think this is a good way to talk to a subject that you don't agree with. Well, we reached out to the producers of the deep end and they sent us this statement. The series is an honest representation of what we experienced over three years. We were transparent with Teal and her

team about every part of our process from shooting through editing. The results speak for themselves and we remain grateful to everyone who agreed to participate in the series. And even though Teal takes issue with how she's portrayed in the documentary, it does raise her profile. She continues to pump out content on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok. In some ways, despite her haters, Teal Swan is bigger than ever. Sachi, I've got some updates about what happened after the camera stopped rolling. Blake and Juliana are still living in Utah

and are now running a tourism company. According to his Facebook page, Blake is also working as a school bus driver. He hasn't said much about Teal's response to the film. We need to kind to speak with us for the story. But Juliana's social media pages provide some insight into how she feels. She replies with thank yous on Instagram

to people who said negative things about Teal. Hahaha. I love that, it's so needless. It's really funny. Jared Dobson, Teal's ex-boyfriend, also appeared in the deep end. He told us he's feeling much better, but is still processing his experiences in Teal's community.

That's great. I'm glad that there are some good endings in this wretched story. Yeah. And Teal is still making content for her roughly 1.5 million YouTube subscribers and her hundreds of thousands of followers on TikTok. Even with the bad press, her fanbase is continuing to grow.

Say what you want about Teal. People are drawn to her and want to hear her message. Jennings Brown says he's heard from some of Teal's followers since his podcast came out. Some felt they've put a lot of time and money into her teachings, but wound up feeling worse. Other people feel Teal has truly helped them, and some say she's a reason they're alive today. Well, this has been a real Jury Sachi. I know. Most of the other people we feature on this show had like this rise to greatness and then they got caught and their empires crumble, but Teal's is very much still intact. Yeah, this is kind of a bummer and to this episode, because there isn't a lot of accountability.

It's maybe a testament to how lost a lot of people are. We're all just looking for some meaning. You know, one thing she does say in the doc is that she wants to be like the most famous self-help guru person on earth. Yeah, this is a skill-free person who has no other mechanism to garner influence in the world. And so the only way she can do it is by like making up all these weird stories

about how powerful she is. I mean, that's really what this comes down to, right? Like she thinks that she has some superiority over every other person in the world. She can speak to her own trauma and to other people's trauma unlike anybody else. And if you defy her, it's akin to defying a God. Yeah, it's kind of like this, I'll show you thing

of she will be the most famous person in the world when it comes to self-help. The reality is that like what she is prescribing is not reasonable, it's not helpful and it has no merit in any kind of science. She'll never be the most famous, anything, because her backstory is I was once sewn into somebody's body and left there for a day.

Well, here's the thing, not everything she says is totally bonkers. No, certainly. She says a lot of like, you know, basic normal self-help stuff. And I think yeah. A lot of people see that and she gets, you know, a ton of views or whatever. She's like also operating the space of like the TikTok sphere of psychologists who are telling you about boundaries and blah, blah, blah, that sounds so reasonable. And people kind of just internalize it in the Vaughn type of thing of thing. So it's also like pretty interesting that she's reaching people outside of her whole sphere

of her teachings and everything. There's also this level of it of just being an online person that she has. And I think that's pretty fascinating and I think that's kind of why she won't really stop, you know? Yeah, I mean, maybe she will subside off of these little blips of attention she gets if she like goes mini viral on TikTok for a day.

Yeah, I think that the thing is like, most people are staying at the middle level of like, yeah, here's someone who's experienced a lot in her life, a lot of bad and she's talking about trauma in this way that feels very realistic and very personal and that, you know, she helps people feel seen and she's very no nonsense in her delivery, which I think is also a huge draw for people. Like watching this documentary, I was just so drawn to seeing her life play out,

because it just goes to show the lengths people will go through to feel like they belong. And it's like, you're picking a deal so on here. I think this is someone who very clearly has a lot of trauma and I don't know where that trauma is rooted and I don't know where it's from. And they have chosen to weaponize it against other people and has, I don't think she understands this, but she is behaving like an abuser because she actually isn't dealing with anything

that's ever happened to her or any mental health struggle she's having or any emotional distress. She's just causing damage. I feel sorry for her. Yeah, there is one scene in particular in the docu-series, the deep end that really stuck out to me. Someone who's there asks her, one thing that I kind of question and wonder about

is, and paraphrasing is, yeah, you know, where are your mentors? Who are the people you're listening to and she obviously gets very upset by this question because she's like what's the problem that there's no one I look up to There's no one like me on earth. I've never met anyone smarter than me. So who am I gonna follow and why is that a problem for you? And you're like, oh, okay, there it is and why is that a problem for you? And you're like, oh, okay, there it is. If anyone's claiming to be the smartest person in the world, it's probably not true. And I don't think the smartest person in the world

really needs to tell you that they are. You know what, that's actually the lesson. In a room, if you need help, look for a dummy, look for a self-professed ding-dong. That person probably knows what to do. You know, sure. I'll let you have that. Why? How do I know that? Because if I was in a room, I would tell everybody that I'm a genius,

and I don't know anything. So what you got to do is look for the humble idiot. That person will probably have an answer. Look for the forest gum of the room. That is a... Listen, I'm kind of convinced that this is a Buddhist saying, look for the quietest idiot. All right, put it on a yoga mat. Do some downward dog. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to scamful answers, add free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today,

or you can listen add Free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. This is the Memory Maker part two. I'm Sarah Haggy, and I'm Sachi Cole. If you have a tip for us on a story that you think we should cover, please email us at

scamflensersatwondery.com. We use many sources in our research. A few that were particularly helpful were the Gateway Podcast, Conspirituality Podcast, the Mormon Stories Podcast, the Documentaries, the Deep End, and Open Shadow, and Vice-TV's episode on Teal. And of course, Teal's own books and videos, including Sculptor in the Sky, the completion process, and shadows before dawn.

Special thanks to Jared Dobson and Jennings Brown for taking the time to talk with us. In this episode, we discussed sexual violence, depression, and suicide. If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline can be reached at 1-800-273-8255. The National Alliance on Mental Illness is available at 1-800-950-6264.

If you or someone you know is a victim of sexual assault, you can contact the National Sexual Assault Hotline in the US by calling 1-800-656-COPE. That's 1-800-656-Cope. That's 1-800-656-4673. Additional resources are available in our show notes. Suzy Armitage wrote this episode, additional writing by us, Satji Cole and Sarah Haggy. Our senior producer is Jen Swan.

Our producer is John Reed. Our associate producers are Charlotte Miller and Lexi Peary. Our story editor and producer is Sarah Enne. Our story editor is Allison Windtrop, sound designed by James Morgan, back checking by Gabrielle Jolay. Additional audio assistance provided by Adrian Tapia. Our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Freeson Sync. Ouraging Producer is Matt Gantt, and our Senior Managing Producer is Tanja Bigpen. Kate Young and Olivia Rashard are series producers. Our Senior Story Editor is Rachel B. Doyle.

Our Senior Producer is Ginny Bloom. Our Executive Producer's are Janine Cornelow, Stephanie Gens, Jenny Lauer Beckman, and Marshall Louis for Wundery. Wunder, Wundery.