Scheananigans with Scheana Shay - Checking In on Scheana

Episode Date: May 9, 2025

This week, Scheana opens up about the state of her mental health with Janet and psychologist-author, Dr. Jessica Zucker. The ladies replace the silence around the hidden struggles women face with storytelling, vulnerably sharing deeply personal stories from their lives: a traumatic miscarriage, suicide attempt, and moments of great personal despair. How has negative audience feedback affected Scheana’s confidence, and how do she and Janet cope with internet trolls? Plus, how was Janet’s first Reunion, and what did her husband say to change her mind on needing a tummy tuck postpartum? Tune in to find out! Follow us: @scheana @scheananigans Co-Host: @janetGuest: @ihadamiscarriage The video version of this episode will be available on Scheana’s YouTube page on Friday, May 9th.  Need Help?Postpartum Support International: Call 1-800-944-4773Suicide & Crisis Lifeline: Call or Text 988 BUY DR. JESSICA’s BOOK, NORMALIZE IT!!!www.drjessicazucker.com/normalize-it BUY MY BOOK!!!MY GOOD SIDE is available for Pre-Order now at www.mygoodsidebook.comEpisode Sponsors:Don’t miss the new season of The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, coming to Hulu May 15th.Get the Rakuten app NOW and join the 17 million members who are already saving! Cash Back rates change daily, see Rakuten.com for details.Shop a huge selection of outdoor furniture online. This summer, get outside with Wayfair. Head to Wayfair.com right now.Hero Bread is offering 10% off your order. Go to hero.co and use code GOODASGOLD at checkout.Get started at factormeals.com/goodasgold50off and use code goodasgold50off to get 50 percent off plus FREE shipping on your first box.Produced by Dear MediaSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The following podcast is a Dear Media production. There is tea to spill and I am here for it. The wait for more episodes of The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives is almost over. It's coming back to Hulu with an all-new season on May 15th. We'll finally get to find out what's going on with our favorite saints and sinners. Are Taylor and Dakota still together? Are Jen and Zach still dealing with the aftermath of their trip to Las Vegas? Will Whitney be back into the group after her actions last season?

Plus, Demi and Jessie drama, Layla's shocking discovery, Miranda's arrival to clear up the swinging scandal, and so much more. This season is a tangled web of jealousy, exes, and drama, and I cannot wait to binge watch. It's going to be pure insanity. Make sure you watch the new season of The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives coming to Hulu May 15th. From Vanderpump rules to motherhood and everywhere in between. Warm up the kettle, it's time to spill some tea. to Shay.

Hello everyone. Welcome back to Shenanigans. Janet is back co-hosting with me today and we are also joined by Dr. Jessica Zucker. She is a psychologist specializing in reproductive health and the author of the award-winning book, I Had a Miscarriage, a memoir, a movement, along with her recently released new book, which is right here, Janet, Please Show Everyone on YouTube. It's called Normalize It. And this book really delves into pervasive cultural taboos

and stigmas that women encounter through their lives. So right when I got this book sent to me, I was obsessed. There's a little blurb with my name in the beginning of it because I think this book is just something that all women need to read, especially all of my moms out there there's so much great information we're gonna get into that a little more but considering that this is Mental Health Awareness Month we are now in May I am turning 40 big milestone birthday for me and there's just been a lot going on

and I felt like this is the best time to get real about some mental health struggles, some tools and tips and ways to navigate when you're kind of feeling a bit down. And yeah, so how are we both doing? Thanks for being here. Good, thanks for Thanks for being here. Thanks for having us. Thanks so much for having us. Yeah, how was your weekend?

Busy. So Jana just filmed her first reunion ever. I know you can't say anything about it, but did you cry? Can you say that? People laughed, people cried. People, me and Jason needed to check into the four seasons afterwards for a staycation.

That's what we did afterwards. It was like, I was Jason, needed to check into the four seasons afterwards for a staycation. That's what we did afterwards. It was like, I was like, all right, we need a wind down where we can order food, be chill. We brought Cameron and just a little family staycation afterwards, which was really nice. That's nice. Yeah. Jessica, how was your weekend?

It is busy. I am like so overwhelmed still by the book stuff. So it's been exciting. I know, congrats. It just came out a little over a week ago. Yep. Yep, I'm riding so overwhelmed still by the book stuff. So it's been exciting. I know, congrats. It just came out a little over a week ago. Yep, I'm riding high for sure. So exciting.

I'm still in the signing books mode at home. I signed, I swear well over 2000 copies. And they're like, actually, we need you to sign all of the pages because they're binding them into the books and they have to leave room for error for printing and binding. And so I have 2000 more that I'm still signing. Every time I've seen Sheena in the last,

I don't know, two or three weeks, it's like at her house, we're like eating dinner, but she's signing books. Swim lessons, but she's signing books. Gymnastics class, but she's signing books. It's like in between everything, she's amazing. Re-watching Coachella while signing books. I would say you have a beautiful signature though,

and I'm excited to get a signed copy, hopefully. I'm excited. I think I can do that. Yes. And yeah, she's doing them all so perfectly. I'm like, I feel like by a couple hundred, I would just be safe. At this point, now that I know there are so many extra,

if I mess up the slightest, I'm like, do another one. But the first 2000, I was like being so careful and taking my time because I'm like, I have to get these all right. Now knowing there's so many extras, I'm just like, oh, I just don't know. You might sell them all. Because I'm signing every single one.

My mom was like, can't you just get a stamp or photocopy it? That's what I think. No, that's so impersonal. Like I am hand handwriting every single book. So if somebody pre-orders from Amazon or anywhere, it's gonna be pre-signed? No, not Amazon.

So Premier and Barnes and Noble are doing signed editions. I see. Amazon is just Amazon. Sending. And then obviously when I go on book tour, I'll be signing all of those. Wow. But yeah.

You know if you get a signed copy, you contributed to Sheena's carpal tunnel. Yes. Is it carpal tunnel? Is it arthritis? I was looking up the difference. I think I might have arthritis. I feel like afterwards though,

you're just like, my hand hurts. It does, it really does. But yeah, any tips for a first time author? Well, I mean, I don't think you need them, but just hang onto your hat and enjoy the ride. It is, I think, a roller coaster, but it is so profound. I haven't read your book yet. I can't wait to read it, but yours is a memoir, right? Yes, July 22nd. It'll be available. That's a big deal. So yeah, when you put your heart out there, just get ready. Yeah, I don't know if I'm gonna be ready.

It's just gonna come out and then I'm just going to have to answer to a lot of people and a lot of questions. I think it's going to be a lot of truth though and filling in gaps that maybe people didn't get to see about you. And I haven't read it yet, but I've heard pieces and bits and things. And I feel like it's really going to, I don't know, like just really fill in those missing pieces of like the background story on some things and I don't know. I hope so.

I mean, I wrote this book not to be liked, you know? I mean, I'm not the fan favorite. I know that's no secret. I love that about you. What? No, I'm the fan favorite. I don't know what you're talking about. Everybody loves me.

But I just, I want to be more understood. I feel like all of the people who don't like me, it's for the dumbest reasons. It's for the way something was edited when it's like, but you missed the whole other hour of that conversation. And so I just- Nobody who knows Sheena well, it's all the people who are on the outskirts.

Nobody who knows Sheena well doesn't like her. I can say that with confidence. So can I, and I don't even know her. Thank you. Like, there's a reason why I had to do two birthday parties for my daughter. You know, we had 55 at one and 125 at the other RSVP'd. With the rain yesterday, kids being sick,

about 25, I think, dropped off, but we still had, like like a little over 90 people. So I'm like, for a kid's birthday. All of these people showing up for us, you know? Of course. I have 150 coming to my birthday on Wednesday, so. Well, here's what I'm gonna say from a psychological perspective though.

The people that don't wanna understand you are not going to. Even if they read the truth, even if you say it like it is, they might just be dedicated to not liking people in general. Why? Because it may be a projection of their own stuff and who you represent to them, but it has nothing to do with you. But I'm sure you already know that. But it must be tough, I'm sure. Yeah, and I mean, especially with, you know, us being on TV and everyone having an opinion. Yeah.

And I mean, the keyboard warriors, they are just, they're on one at all times. Like that is their life. They have nothing else better to do than to just talk about someone who they're watching on a TV show, who essentially is a stranger to them. And they have so many opinions

and think they know everything. And it's one thing I said on my podcast last week about Janet, I'm like, anyone who meets Janet in person, you're like, oh, that's not like the Janet on the show. Not that she's a different person on the show, but you're seeing a certain side of her. You're not seeing her necessarily with all of her best friends

and the people who bring out that fun, lighthearted side. And that's how it was for me when I started the show that I was on that is now rebooted because I was the one girl who the three other girls didn't like. So it's hard to see that fun, lighthearted side of Sheena when there's a bunch of people just pulling me down instead of building me up.

So did that impact your mental health? Oh, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah. that there's a bunch of people just pulling me down instead of building me up. So did that impact your mental health? Oh, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, the first season we filmed, I was pregnant. And so I was like six months through eight months pregnant, which, and that was the first time I was on TV,

had cameras in my life. So that was like tough. And then to have all the comments and things roll in when I was, I think, four months postpartum, it was like, oh, like this is a lot. Now I feel like I have gotten thicker skin with things. And you have to come up with like a really unique, funny insult to like really get to me. Like I've seen all of the other stuff and I'm like,

eh, all right, like come up with something new. It takes like a good one now to zing me. But do you check? Like, do you go scrolling through and? I try not to scroll. Stuff comes up because like, you know, on my algorithm, it knows that I'm connected to the world. So they'll, but I try to swipe out

so that the algorithm learns that I don't wanna see stuff about myself. And now I have restrictions on my comments where you have to follow me to comment. And that kind of prevents a lot of the like, I call them drive-by comments where people are just like, come on my page, leave something mean and then go away. And they don't even follow you most of the time. I'm like, why are you here?

You're seeking me out. But so I think having it on where you have to follow, I'm like, people who follow me, I feel like, get it. And they'll leave more like constructive criticism, like maybe you shouldn't have to follow. I'm like, people who follow me, I feel like get it. And they'll leave more like constructive criticism. Like, maybe you shouldn't have said this. And I'm like, you're right, I should have said that. It does. I still think people are just too bored if they're making comments like that.

But I do think a lot of it comes from envy. Yeah. People who wish they were on TV, people who wish they were in the limelight or something. Yeah. And they just like take one thing that one person said one time and run with it. Yeah.

And it's so frustrating, but also at the end of the day, I'm just like always telling all of my friends who are new in this, just like try and stick it out because it is worth it. You know, I mean, the reward is definitely worth it, but it's hard getting there. It's definitely not easy. It does take a huge toll on your mental health.

And speaking of all of that, there are a lot of things that I wanna get into along with not just being on TV, but mental health in general. So we're gonna take a quick little break and I'll be right back. All right, are you someone who loves to shop? Because if you love to shop, then why not save money when you shop? And that is what is great about Rakuten. It is the smartest

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Okay, and we're back. Yeah, I am absolutely exhausted after this weekend. We had Summer's second, fourth birthday party. It was kind of her third, fourth birthday party. So I was like, we had her birthday party for her school friends. Then we had Palm Springs. We did a little party at the surf club and at our house.

Then we did her party for all of our cousins, my high school friends, and just everyone else who she doesn't go to school with. Then that night, so I mean, definitely shouldn't have had her running around in the rain after, but she's with her cousins, she's playing brawls. Like, let her live her life. How did your mom raise you? Were you not allowed her running around in the rain after, but she's with her cousins, she's playing, Brock's like, let her live her life. How did your mom raise you? Were you not allowed to run around in the rain?

I'm like, no, absolutely not. That's how you get sick. No, I was not. And so she was having so much fun with her cousins, but then that night she's coughing, her nose is stuffy, and I'm like, I know she shouldn't have been out. It wasn't the warmest day, but the pool was heated. And yeah, that night she wakes up in hives

and I don't even know what that was from. Her skin is very sensitive. Honestly, it's probably because after the party, running around in the rain, swimming in chlorine, she didn't have a bath. She fell asleep in the car on the way home and Brock and I are going, I'm like, no, she needs to have a bath. And he's like, she doesn't need to have a bath. She fell asleep in the car on the way home. And Brock and I are going, I'm like, no, she needs to have a bath.

And he's like, she doesn't need to have a bath. Blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, I'm not gonna fight with you. So fine. But she has really sensitive skin. So then she wakes up in the middle of the night, just like scratching, had to take an oatmeal bath at like 1 a.m.

And then it just, it's been a rough couple of nights. So- Wow. Well, we're so lucky you're here. Yes. Yeah. So I may look awake. I don't know if I do.

You do, you do. I'm feeling very, but it kind of goes into the next subject I wanted to talk about. Just feeling down lately. It's something I've been wanting to open up about on this podcast because I do feel like it's very important to always be transparent with what we're going through as people who are public figures on a reality show, moms. There's a lot of stuff that we go

through that maybe doesn't always make it on the show because maybe we're going through it in the off season like I actually am. And I think it's been a combination of things. Okay. So I have really just been feeling depressed like the last six months. And it was something that I kept trying to just mask and say like, no, I'm fine.

I'm fine. Like it'll, it'll go away. But it all started around the Masked Singer. Okay. Like I get asked to do this show and I immediately was like hard pass. Absolutely not. Don't care how much money they're paying me. I'm not going to go on another show on national television just to get made fun of.

I don't want to do it. My manager, my agents, the casting director, they all get on a phone call with me and they're like, No, Sheena, like, here's the reasons why you want to do it. It's not a singing competition. We're here to, you know, like, make you look good, sound good. It's gonna be a fun thing. It's a guessing game. It's not a singing competition. So I'm like, ah. And this was something that was so far out of my comfort zone

that was so scary to go on a show that's, you know, prime time national television. And the fact that I got asked to do it, I was honored, but so scared. And I'm like, so I'm gonna say no to doing something that's a huge opportunity because I'm scared. No, I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna put myself out there as I always do

and I'm gonna do it. So I get to set, I meet my producers, the vocal coaches and I'm having the time of my life, like so much fun. And right when they said my name to go home, I was like, of course. I totally have a meltdown in my trailer. Like so much fun. And right when they said my name to go home, I was like, of course. I totally have a meltdown in my trailer. I'm like, this is why I didn't want to do this show.

I'm not good enough. I get sent home first. Now everyone's gonna make fun of me. Everyone's gonna be like, exactly. You can't sing. Why would you do this? And I'm like, I just, I wanted to put myself out there. And that's why I got this tattoo, was just to show that like, I just, I wanted to put myself out there. And that's why I got this tattoo is just to show that like,

I can do things that are uncomfortable. I can do things that are scary. And even if I fail or I don't succeed, like I can get back up and I can do it again. And that's how I want to raise my daughter. I want her to learn that it's okay to fall down. It's okay to fail, but still being in the secrecy time of it, that kind of messed with me too, because I'm not really able to open up to anyone in my life about

what I'm going through. So I didn't tell my best friend, I didn't tell my husband, my mom, like no one. And I just, I just swallowed it. I just was like, you know, maybe, maybe I up my meds a little bit, but then I started grinding my teeth a lot at night. And so I'm like, no, I'll just go back to like 25 milligrams as if that's enough Zoloft for anyone. Like it's not, I've learned that. I'm now at 75 and considering 100.

But in that time, I was, you know, able to talk to my psychiatrist, able to talk to my therapist. Then it's the holidays. Like I filmed this the first week in November. So then we're getting into Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year's, wildfires across Los Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year's, wildfires across Los Angeles, terrifying, evacuating,

packing stuff up, donating. Like it was just such a heavy month. Like thankfully we were okay, we didn't have to evacuate, but just the impact that had on our community. Like it was a lot, I had so many friends who lost everything. And it was just a really heavy, a few months emotionally. And then we're in March and the show's airing. And then the episode airs.

I had a bunch of like friends and family over for it. And I actually was really proud of myself. Like, it wasn't bad. It wasn't the song I wanted to sing, but people please Ershina and true fashion, just this song was suggested. And I'm like, okay, I mean, it's a good song. I'll try it.

And so the episode airs. It's not as bad as I thought it was going to be. And also people are like, oh, that was auto tuned. And I'm like, no, no, no. I sang live. There was no auto tuning whatsoever. I'm literally singing live, which I've also never done without a backing track and without an auto tuned mic. It sounds terrifying.

It's one or the other or it's both. Yeah, absolutely terrifying. So we watch it back and I was like, you know what, I'm actually really proud of myself. And- As you should have been. And I got so many amazing comments. They're like, you shouldn't have gotten home first. Like you were robbed.

Like you, you know, should have made it at least another week. And like the support I got was so overwhelming. It was so nice because I'm not used to that. Like everyone, they're just so mean all of the time. And it's always like what I do wrong, what I just, so many things. And so after watching that, I was like, okay,

now I really need to focus on what's been brewing and what's going on because I felt like getting sent home first was part of it, but it couldn't be all of it. Like it can't just be like one thing. So then I start thinking, you know, like as excited as I am for this new chapter of my life, I got to film the Valley and be with all of my friends this past summer, which filled the void

of not filming a season 12, but then the show getting rebooted and it's like, that's a huge chapter of my life that now is just done. And as happy as I was for honestly that chapter to be done and to take the next steps and write a book, do all of these things, I'm like, wow, that's been a huge part of my identity that now is just done.

And so I think a combination of these things just led to me kind of going into a depression, but I have so many things to be grateful for and to be happy about. And I wake up every day and I look at, you know, I have so many things to be grateful for and to be happy about. And I wake up every day and I look at, I have two homes, I have a beautiful daughter, amazing husband, a great family, amazing friends. I have so much to be grateful for.

Why am I feeling this way? Like, why is it hard for me to get up in the morning? Why have I not worked out in months? I look in the mirror, I don't like what I see at all. And I know I'm the only person who can change that. But I just haven't had the motivation to do it. I'm turning 40, that's another thing. I know there's extra hormones that start to get dumped

into your body at 40. I'm on the Mirena, IUD, I don't know if that is affecting me in some way, but I'm like, between the hormones and just everything I've been feeling, it just hit me where I'm like, you know what? I think I need to up my meds. I think I need to do something

because whatever I've been doing isn't working. And I know when I work out, I feel better, but just getting back to the gym has been hard. So I feel like every week I sit here, I put on a happy face, I smile, I interview my guests, or I talk to my friends, or I just answer questions. I'm like, everything's great, but like mentally it hasn't been.

And I just wanted to open up about that because I feel like you could have everything in the world and still not always feel completely happy. And that's why I wanted to have my best friend here. And also you here today to talk about this because I know you write about a lot of this in your book and yeah, I just wanted to normalize it. I mean, I have so much respect for you.

I could cry. Your vulnerability is stunning and beautiful. And I wish it was more common that people were so in touch with how they feel. I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not your therapist, but I think that there's so much to what you said about the perfectionism and the desire to please and I think it created probably so much pain that you were sent home.

And what's interesting though is then you watched it and it wasn't as bad as you thought, you know? And so it's you are modeling for your daughter what it's like to put yourself out there regardless of the outcome and that's huge. But I don't think that just because we have a lot, we feel good. Or just because we have a lot, we're happy. And so I would try to not put that pressure on yourself,

like, oh, but I love my husband and my kid is so cute and this and that. It's like... Depression doesn't care about any of that. And it can come in like a tornado and swirl us into another land. And so not being able to exercise all of that. I mean, just talk to your psychiatrist about adjusting things and your therapist potentially.

There's probably so much grief around the other show ending and your identity being so caught up in that for so many years, I can only imagine what that would be like. Yeah. I feel like that too. I remember on this podcast, we sat here the day the news was announced,

and you guys had a little bit of a heads up before that, but when they said they were rebooting the show, and I asked you and Lala, like, how do you feel? And I felt like it hadn't really hit either of you yet, when they said they were rebooting the show and I asked you and Lala, like, how do you feel? And I felt like it hadn't really hit either of you yet. Cause you both were like, you know, it's fine. It felt like the right time. And you know, you had a lot of kind of like,

yep, this is it. Like, but not strong feelings about it. And anything you do for a decade, of course when it ends is going to feel, it could be anything. It could just be, you know, like your gym closing after a decade. That's like part of your everyday,

your routine, your life, who you are. And having something suddenly change that is jarring and confusing and I'm sure a lot of it is like wrapping your head around what the next chapter looks like now that this one is closed. And hearing you say too that you felt like a failure for doing Masked Singer, or like at first,

right after it was done, it's like, I look at that and I'm like, you're so brave for doing it. So many people that I know watched, it was so hard not to tell people like, oh my God, Sheena's gonna be on it. But like so many people I know watched that and would die to be on. And like the fact that they asked you,

it's like, it's not because they wanted to get you up there and make fun of you, it's they were like, she and a she can handle this. Like she can do it. She can stand up at the bar at Sir and dance in front of an entire group of strangers. She can do it at the finale party of this. Like she can, she's got what it takes to be up there

and to really like make a fun show and dance and sing and like be yourself and have fun with it. And I hate that you ever felt like that was a failure at all because, you know, watching you and watching how the episode aired, I was like, oh my gosh, you killed it. I was so proud of you. I was like, this is amazing.

And you know, whether it's one episode or however many you can make it, you know, you should be so proud of yourself for doing that. I saw Summer's face the whole time as she was watching, dancing around the living room being like, my mommy's the bat. And it's like, you know, like how you, that's amazing.

You gotta just be like, so she was so proud of you. Like she's watching it. Brock's has beaming ear to ear with a smile. Like all of us were just like, oh my gosh, you're like up there doing your thing, being so great. And like, I hope in that moment, it did shift it for you big time because seeing all of your friends and family

surrounding you and just truly, you know, we could have been like, oh yeah, she's doing it. Like, it wasn't like that at all. Everyone was so happy and proud of you and truly knew that you did a really good job. Thank you. And I hate that you ever felt like that was a failure because I watched that and I was like, go Sheena.

This is why I'm her fan. Yeah. I will also say, this might not be a popular opinion, but I think I'll put it out there. You're allowed to say no. Like, and it's great that you did it. It's, and I want to watch it, of course, but you cannot do things and still model for your kid

that we try things and we sometimes fail and sometimes succeed or something in the middle. So, you know, I mean, I think that's just something to consider as you march through this next phase of your life that you don't have to necessarily say yes to everything because it is so exposing and yes, you ultimately felt good about it, but there was a lot of discomfort it sounds like.

Yeah, I mean, I am so glad that I did it and I do often need a push to do the things that I, my immediate answer is usually no. Oh, okay. But then I get convinced that it's like, well, okay, I know you said that, but here's why you should. It could be the simplest thing is, I think you're gonna wanna get glam for this lunch

and you're going to. I'm like, no, I don't need to get glam and waste money on this. Then I get there and I'm like, oh, there's a full red carpet. I'm really glad I got glam. So it's like the simplest thing is that it's just, my go-to is always, nope, nope, not doing it.

And then I need a little convincing and I'm like, I'm so glad I did. And it's special for this. I've seen you actually notice some things that I'm like, wait, they offered you how much and you said no? She's like, well, it just isn't, you know, I don't really like that thing in real life, so I'm not gonna promote it on my thing.

And I'm like, oh, for that much money, I'd be doing backflips promoting it. So I feel like this was a good thing to get out of your comfort zone for and give it a shot. And I'm happy you did because the episode turned out amazing. Yeah, I feel like too with The Masked Singer it just kind of took me back to the early VPR days

where I mean, yeah, it's like, I just didn't fit in. I wasn't good enough or just like people saying negative things. And I just knew I even I talk about this experience in my books I was literally still writing my book when I was on the show but I just I felt like everyone online was gonna be talking shit being like put the mic down you can't sing like the same things they've always been saying and I did get a chunk of that but then also as I watched the

show and literally the finale is this week, two of the people in my group were in the finale. I'm like, I didn't have an easy group either. I mean, there are so many amazing singers on the show. And as I watched it, I'm like, OK, I get why I went home first. And it's OK. Like, I think they've been trying to get flavor, flavor on the show forever. And right off the bat, Nick Cannon knew who he was.

And so I'm like, after watching it, and then the other three people were like actual singers, like really good singers. So I'm like, I feel so much better about myself. I did it. It was so much fun. And I kind of blame myself that when I got the call, I manifested going home first.

I go, I'll do it if I can only do one episode. And then everyone's like, well, you don't want to go home first. And the month I got there, I'm like then everyone's like, well, you don't want to go home first. And the month I got there, I'm like, no, no, no, I don't want to go home first. Like, please scratch that. I never said that. But at the end of the day, yeah, one more episode would have been amazing. My second performance was so much stronger. I had a split. It was I started on a motorcycle.

It was going to be so fun. Awesome. But just to get my fix of still performing that song, me and the 27s are going to cover it and eventually put that out. So I'll still get my moment. On that note too, you know how many other people feel the way you do? And I've felt at times where they are maybe like the outcast or not fitting in at the moment.

And instead of watching you curl up in a ball and be like, I'm not doing anything ever again. And then feeling themselves like, I should curl up in a ball and never do anything again. Cause I relate to her. They're watching you feel the same way they feel and then get up and do something that takes so much confidence.

Like you have to be so brave to do that. And they're like, okay, you know what? If she feels that little girl inside of her saying like, we're not supposed to be here, but she can do that, so can I. Like, it really is inspiring to, I feel like to do things like that and show other people who feel the same way.

They can also get up and do something there that's out of their comfort zone. And that's why I have opened up about all of my mental health stuff, because I know that it does help so many people and that's actually something I want to get into next. But I'm going to take a quick break and blow my nose off the camera and I'll be back. Are you like me and you're wondering what to send your kid for lunch?

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they were silently struggling and didn't realize that they had OCD. As you know, it is so often misdiagnosed for postpartum depression. Yes. And I had, I mean, I know I've had OCD my whole life, but I had no idea that postpartum OCD was a thing. And now it's like, I'm, I think now she's four,

I'm out of that postpartum phase, but a thing. And now it's like, I think now she's four, I'm out of that postpartum phase, but I still struggle with OCD. I still struggle with anxiety. And before I was pregnant, I was on medication for years. And then when I got pregnant, I got off everything because I had the miscarriage as you know, it's how we got in touch. And I just didn't wanna be on anything.

So even when I was breastfeeding, I was just so afraid of anything that could harm her. And so I, you know, it took a while for me to just admit that I think I need to be back on medication. And now I'm on Zoloft, which is for all of the things, you know, it's not just for depression or anxiety or OCD. I think it kind of covers all of the bases. And I think that a lot of people think of OCD

as the, you know, washing the hands, being extra organized, being really clean and don't know about the intrusive thoughts, which I feel like most everyone has. I mean, Brock is the furthest thing from having no CD or anxiety as a person that I know, but he still will get intrusive thoughts. And I think as a parent, you know, that's normal. But me opening up about it,

I have a mom friend at summer school who is a therapist. And she told me that she had a couple of her patients open up to her saying that they saw my story who is a therapist. And she told me that she had a couple of her patients open up to her saying that they saw my story and that they now realized what was wrong with them. There was one person who was literally suicidal because she just could not get it together and realize what was wrong.

And after seeing me share my journey, now I've had so many people. I'm working with the International OCD Foundation. I'm going to Boston in two weeks or next week, actually, for the OCD Walk. And I know that in my life, like this is one of my purposes is just to normalize it and talk about it. And yeah, I am not saying this, you know, to get like any kudos, but I do want to demonstrate the impact that verbalizing our struggles can have. And I feel like our society has come a long way.

You know, mental health struggles are being brought out of the shadow, discussed openly on social media, on television. And this all helps paint a more accurate picture than the harmful stereotype of the depressed woman who can't get out of bed because she's lazy. That has just persisted for years. And that was the one thing that finally made me open up about it was about a month ago, Brock made a comment

that it was a day that Summer didn't have school, whether it was like a Wednesday or a Saturday, it was a day that I don't have to be up and out of bed at 7 a.m. And I just didn't wanna get out of bed. And it was close to nine. And then finally, he was downstairs with her, she was fine.

And then he was just like, there's no excuse to be like sleeping till nine. I was like, A, you're right. B, I was just like, and I just didn't say anything. And I was like, yeah, I know I feel really lazy. That night we had two of our parent friends over and this couple, Aubrey and Noah, I absolutely love them. I feel like the wife and I, we get along on so many

of like just the woman and mental health levels, but the husband and I are so similar personality-wise that it's just a perfect mix when the four of us are together, because I'm like, he gets me, she gets me. And so we're all at my house one night, the kids are upstairs having a play date, and Brock had made a comment. it was he said I don't remember and Aubrey looks at me and she goes you look like you're about to cry and I'm

like why did you say that because now I'm going to cry and I just lost it and I was like okay I'm finally gonna say it out loud like yeah I think I've been depressed okay and it was just like the four of us and like, thankfully the kids were off playing because I do not like to cry in front of Summer. She's so empathetic, she feels it. And it's just, it's heartbreaking when she's like, why is mommy sad?

And so I- She's like you. She is. And so I opened up to them about it and they both just turned 40 as well. And so then Aubrey was telling me about the hormones and this and that. And so having two people who also have a kid the same age who are my age, you know, Brock is five years younger than me.

It just felt so good in such a safe space in my home with these two people to open up about it. And Brock, finally, in that moment, he was just, I go, I didn't want to get out of bed, okay? And that's not a good feeling. And he had just like clicked where he was like, oh, like there's something more to this. And it felt so good to say it out loud.

And I was like, look, I have my psychiatrist appointment this week. I'm gonna up my meds a little bit and just see if that helps. And other than today, I have been feeling better since we upped them. And at my next appointment, I might consider going up 25 more

because I do absolutely notice a difference going from 50 to 75, which has been great. But just being able to open up about that and it felt good because it's like, you keep it inside and you don't say it out loud And when you do say it out loud other people can relate. It's a weight taken off you and I think sharing our personal experiences helps to Dismantle shame and it can foster connection, you know

And I feel so much closer with these parents just since that day. And they're actually throwing my birthday party for me on Wednesday. They've opened up their home to me. They're just like, we want because I was like, I don't even want to do anything for my birthday. Like, I'm overwhelmed. I'm over it. Maybe this summer we do something, take a trip. But like, I just was so over it. And they're like, no, no, no. We are planning a party for you.

So. You can't skip your 40th. I know. I've been saying this for weeks when she's been saying, oh, no, we'll just figure out something later. I'm like, no, we gotta figure out something now. Yeah. So, Jessica, I wanna ask you,

like, tell me a little bit more about why you wanted to write this book about, I mean, it's obvious, you know, normalizing it, but some of the biggest, like, key messages that people can take from this that'll help with the things that I've been discussing with myself. Definitely. Well, I'll go back a little bit. So I specialize, as you mentioned, in women's reproductive and maternal mental health and I've done so for about 15 years at this point. But when I came to the field, when I got my PhD,

I did not have any personal experience that I had gone through that informed what I wanted to specialize in until I did. So when I was 16 weeks into my second pregnancy, I had a miscarriage while I was home by myself. I had to cut the umbilical cord. Sorry. This makes me uncomfortable.

And I promptly began to hemorrhage. And my husband was, you know, darting through L.A. traffic trying to get home from work to me, and our son was at preschool. And my doctor suggested that I bring the fetus in a bag to her office to be tested. And then to make matters all the more dramatic, traumatic, just horrid, I had to then undergo an unmedicated DNC. It was unfathomable and inevitably kind of

changed the course of my personal and professional lives. So I was not somebody to get on a soapbox about stuff in general. I wasn't really even into social media at that point. And I turned to the research and the research shows that a majority of women are feeling a sense of self blame and shame and guilt and body hatred in the aftermath of miscarriage.

And I was like, no, I have to do something about this. You know, I just felt like, should I take the risk like you have and be vulnerable about my situation? And professionally it was a risk because as a psychologist putting the contents of your life out there, I mean that's not necessarily the norm and I decided it was worth it and so on October 15 2012 no 2014 I launched the I had a miscarriage campaign with my first New York Times piece and I just put it all out there I was holding a sign that said hashtag I had a miscarriage. You couldn't see my face because I wanted women around the world to be able to envision holding it themselves. And in this piece

I was basically compassionately urging women to question if you haven't shared your story why. If you're feeling ashamed why. If you're feeling ashamed, why. If you're feeling a sense of self-hatred, why. And so that led to my first book, I Had a Miscarriage, a Memoir Movement. This new book is an expansion of all of that because I realized that the swirling trifecta of silence, stigma and shame actually begins in girlhood. Follows us all the way through menopause and then some. So this book really invites people, urges us to take a look at all of the milestones we've gone through

and how can we be part of replacing the silence with storytelling? I think that's so beautiful. I remember thinking about this, I guess just the shame around miscarriages and the language around it. When I got pregnant, the second I took a test, told my husband, next morning we called grandparents

on both sides, my mom, his mom and dad. And my mom was so excited and over the moon and I was like, yeah, I'm gonna start telling close friends and family. She's like, well, don't tell anybody until you hit the 12th week mark. That's what you're supposed to do. And I remember at that time, and I was like, why?

She's like, well, if something happens, you don't wanna have to explain it to everybody. And I was like, that's an interesting thought process. And I know that it came from how she was raised. And her mother probably, I assume my grandma had six children. I assume she had miscarriages in there statistically. She probably did.

And I wouldn't be surprised if my mom wasn't sure of it. I know that my mom had miscarriages in between my brother and I, and I don't think I knew about that until I was older. And I remember at that time saying back to my mom, like, I'm not gonna announce it necessarily on social media because I don't wanna have to explain everything to everyone. And I want this to be kind of a quiet time,

but I am gonna tell all of my best friends because if something bad happens, I want their support. I want them to know, I don't wanna just, hey, by the way, I was pregnant, then something bad happened. So now I'm not, now I'm hitting them with a bus of hormones and emotions that I'm going through

instead of them kind of being along the journey with me. Sheena had opened up so much about her miscarriage and I was like, if this happens, and God forbid it does, but if it does, I know that she'll be an amazing support system and somebody I can talk to about this. And I also wanted to rework the, like, you have to wait to tell everybody in case some,

like, that mentality has been pushed, I feel like, on women for so long, and it shouldn't be, it shouldn't be. At least to your friends and family, a process that they're a part of, just like everything else in my life. I tell my friends so much, you know, what I had for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, how am I not gonna tell them

that I'm going through one of the biggest things in my life, you know, whether it goes all the way to full term or it doesn't? I'm like, I want, you know, the people I talk to every day, they offer me support in every other area of my life to be aware of what is going on. I mean, to basically require us to hide our joy in case it becomes grief so that we don't have to share our grief, I think is incredibly mixed up and really makes women feel that

much more alone and isolated and alienated from their communities. So I couldn't agree with you more. Yeah, and then when you put on national television, you know, I mean, she filmed her first season pregnant, second season, what, six months, maybe postpartum? It was like, yeah, like, yeah, six, because I had just stopped breastfeeding. Yeah, so I'm really excited for people to see you at the reunion, because now I feel like-

Really back in my full self, yeah. But I feel like also dealing with comments where people question why your husband is with you based off your appearance and just like, but I know that's been a struggle for you as well. Okay. The book critiques the societal pressure on women to bounce back and just physically after childbirth, which I know when you filmed the season, I mean, you're definitely not at the weight you're at now.

I've been very careful because the way the show is kind of air, it seems like it's really quick. People are like, oh, that was just like a month ago. Right. And it's like, I've been very, you know, I worked really hard to get back to what I consider my normal weight, but I didn't bounce back right away. It's been 16 months. I think it took me about 14 months before I was at my pre baby weight. So, you know, when we filmed, I was about halfway there and now I'm down. It depends if you count the baby or not, right before I gave birth to right now I'm down 70 pounds. But I've been very careful also to, when people are like, oh, you lost it right away

because they see, oh, you were just pregnant on TV, now you're this weight, and I'm very careful to be like, it took 14 months to take your time, like exercise. I enjoyed actually losing the weight. I love Pilates, I love going. It was like, actually after having a baby, I love going to Pilates more, because it's my one hour where I get to not think about him,

my life, anything, and I just get to have my own mental health hour of thinking about my breathing and not much else. So it's like, I'm like, I didn't, I wasn't like starving myself or doing these crazy things to try to lose it right away. I took my time and was like fell back in love with Pilates, took my time doing that and just like let the weight come off with these new lifestyle changes instead of, you know, counting the calories and scale and all of that.

I tried to avoid staying away from all that. Yeah, I mean, the pressure of perfection for women and including mothers that were supposed to look like we never had a baby the day after we have one is unfathomable and ridiculous. And I do think through replacing the silence with storytelling, we actually, hopefully, can carve out

a new cultural phenomenon where it's not expected. We can't, I mean, you know, everybody does sort of wanna lose the weight. It is uncomfortable to kind of not feel like you're yourself. But why should it happen overnight? It shouldn't. I feel like it's actually better to really take your time with it. And even now, just because I'm at my pre-baby weight,

my body is completely different now. And I've struggled with, you know, where I'm like, oh, my stomach is like a lot more flabby now, it's loose skin, it's stretch marks, all that. And where I'm like, oh, I gotta, I need to get a tummy tuck to get this fixed and whatever. My husband's like, why? He's like, your belly was our son's first home.

And that's something he said to me. And he's like, so when I see that, I think like that's the first place he had a home. And I'm like, okay, well now I can't get a tummy tuck if you say it like that. But it's, you know, there's, I'm happy that my body will never be the same. I look at my breasts so much differently.

After breastfeeding, I'm like, that's will never be the same. I look at my breasts so much differently. After breastfeeding, I'm like, that's why I have these things. And they nurtured my child. And even if they're a little bit lower than they used to be, it's like, well, yeah, I pumped milk for seven months out of these things. Of course they look different, but look how healthy my baby is.

He's like a little chunk because he got all the milk. And I'm so, I wouldn't trade that for anything. But it is, I feel like especially in LA, the musket mommy makeover after baby is like, it was like, oh yeah, that's just what I'm gonna do, right? Maybe I should have the second kid, then I'll do this. And like, I don't know if I'll, maybe one day I'll change my mind,

but as of right now, I'm like, I don't think I'll ever feel like I have to do that. That's good. And hope that I can, I don't know, normalize how bodies change. Yeah, I love hearing that. If and when there's another season of the show, I hope I feel comfortable wearing a crop top

and being like, yeah, I have stretch marks and stuff there, but this is my body now. That's great. Yeah, crop tops. It's like, I know I have stretch marks and stuff there, but this is my body now. That's great. And like, I know that it's like, I know that a lot of other people are doing that. Yeah. I love it. In your book, you note that when women become mothers,

the focus is typically on the baby and that we need to do a better job of mothering the mother. Can you give us some tips on how we can do that? Well, I think it's exactly like what you were saying happened to you, probably, that you were suffering. I don't know when you started suffering after the baby arrived, but... It was before she came. Oh, okay. It was during pregnancy. Yeah, but it's like then the baby is there and everybody's cooing over her and loving on her

and making sure that she's okay and she's fed and she's sleeping and changed and all the things. But the attention is not on the new mother. And I do think, I mean, we hear this when it comes to postpartum depression and anxiety a lot, that the suffering is compounded by that silence. People think that if they open up about what they're going through,

that it's gonna make them look like they're not a good mother. Good mother. Good mother, yeah. And, you know, they worry, are people gonna think, I don't love my baby? That's so often not the case. And like you said, people think that depression looks like,

oh, you're laying in bed all day. That's so often not how it is. People can be raging in a depression. So it can look all different types of ways. But I think if we ignore the mother, we're going to miss out on helping her. And the only way a baby thrives is through the mother thriving herself.

And so if she doesn't get the help she needs, there are studies that show that even developmentally, the baby cannot thrive in the same way. And we're concerned with the bonding, right? So the bonding and the attachment, if the mother is unable to be attuned to the baby when the baby needs whatever, then that will have an impact. And we will see that in the child as they get older. And so getting help as soon as we realize we need it, or it could be a best friend noticing that you need it, because sometimes we don't realize

how badly we are suffering. That makes all the difference. And so there's the baby blues that are normative, but if it goes past four, six weeks of, you know, struggling or being weepy and feeling kind of, you know, just hormonally overwhelmed, then we have to take a look at it. And I think women really need to be on top of taking their emotional temperature in the beginning of motherhood, just really asking them, where am I at? And being honest.

You don't have to say it out loud necessarily, but knowing it and then somehow reaching out for help if things aren't going well. Yeah. I think too, when you were talking about being a good mom, you know, women are expected to be overjoyed about pregnancy and relish nesting and read all of the pregnancy books and all of that. And I know I have a couple of friends right now who are pregnant, who are just miserable.

And they're like, get this kid out of me. But then also both of them had experienced miscarriage. So like, I know I'm supposed to feel so overjoyed and so excited, but it's like, it is hard. I mean, I was, I don't know if it's more rare for me. I feel like I had a perfect pregnancy. Like I was like, I could totally do this again until it all went to shit 15 hours into delivery.

And now I will probably go a surrogate route. But I feel like that's one thing where it's like, you know, good mothers are expected to have also a perfectly flat stomach after delivery. They're expected to breastfeed and to, you know, just all of these things where it's like, and then if you can't breastfeed, there's something wrong with you.

And that could also lead to postpartum depression. And women are expected to minimize every other aspect of their identity, like as a partner, a sister, a coworker, you know, all of the things. And I think that when good mothers are expected to demote their own basic needs for personal space, caring for themselves, and looking out for their own interests, it just, there is a lot of pressure and it's not enough to just like lay out these things on the altar of parenthood. You know good mothers

must be happy about it and not complain because there's a lot of things that sometimes it's hard and you want to complain and it's like summer is like having a fit and I'm just like I don't know what I'm doing and Janet's witnessed that with me where I just like sat outside and I was just like crying. So I'm like, I don't know how to help her when she like goes into these little moods and she wants to just hide in the corner. I'm like, do I give her space?

Do I tell her like, tell me what's wrong? It's just, it's hard. My advice to her is I'm like, you're such a good mom because you care so much. You're looking at her, you're telling her her feelings are valid, what can I do to help you through this? And you know what, she's four.

There's some times where it's just, I think it's Miss Rachel that's like, big feelings, it's like, it's okay to have big feelings. It's like, she's a four-year-old. There's times where she might just be sad or mad for not really any reason, but you're such a good mom because in those moments, you take time with your daughter to say like, I understand you're feeling upset.

Like, what did that? Let's do this. What would make you feel better? Do you just need some alone time? Do you need this? And you know- Yeah, we try to do like a thumbs up, thumbs down. If you didn't care, you'd just be like,

oh, she'll get over it. You know, it's like you're doing all the things though that make it better. And she feels seen by you. She's like, I can go to my mom if I'm mad, angry, sad, whatever it is, and she's gonna help me work through it and find the thing, figure out why and how to make it better. Yeah, the last thing that I wanted to get into

that you talk about in your book that I didn't know until I read your book are PMADS, which for those of you who don't know, perinatal mood and anxiety disorders. Postpartum depression and anxiety are the most commonly recognized PMADS, but this group also included OCD, which hello, panic disorder, PTSD, and psychosis.

And I feel like I also do have a bit of PTSD from my labor that I've done EMDR therapy for, which has been incredible. But just like mood disorders among the general population, many women never receive treatment. And between 50 to 70% of these cases go undiagnosed or treated, which is insane. That more than half. It's so scary.

I saw that the CDC, they reported that the US has the highest maternal mortality rate of any wealthy nation, and more than 80% of these deaths are preventable. Leading cause of death is mental health conditions. Currently, suicide accounts for up to 20% of postpartum deaths. Wow.

I didn't know it was that high. That's a crazy number. Yeah, why do we think this is? I think it's because people are not speaking out like you are. And I think a lot of people don't have access and I think culturally and socioeconomically it can be challenging even religiously.

Some people will just say, you know, pray, and you'll get through this, or just exercise, or go to acupuncture, make, you know, suggestions that are well-meaning, but not necessarily helpful. And I think if we don't get on the right meds, if we don't get the right care, this can become an ongoing depression. This can become intractable.

And so, and then it leads to something like suicide because they feel trapped. Do you think that social media has a play in it in that I feel like as a woman, you see all of the baby pictures and all of the, you know, perfect and it's like this happy family and this and this. And you see, you don't see the behind the scenes often. You just see the highlight reel of motherhood and children.

And then, you know, your real life, you're like, I'm being spit up on every day. I'm not getting ready and looking my best. I'm like just surviving and getting through it. For me, that was tough, like seeing, you know, out there. I'm like, oh, like, am I supposed to be scheduling some sort of photo shoot with myself and my baby and like getting all dressed up?

I'm like, I'm literally like, I'm still in diapers. I'm still like, you know, dealing with my own stuff. I'm like, how does everybody get this all done and whatever? And then I remembered like, you know what? Everybody's different and they might have more energy than I do right now. And that just might be also, they might've struggled

just to get there and get through that day. So it's like, but I do feel like there's a lot of pressure with that front of comparing, you know, your life to what you're seeing other people and it's not always the truth. It's definitely not. And I think, you know, suicide is often, somebody is feeling

that badly in that moment and can't see past that moment. With the intrusive thoughts, I think people get terrified. And I don't know exactly what you went through. But when people think they might hurt their baby or harm themselves, and I think, you know, that can become so intense and overwhelming that they don't wanna persist. They don't think that they're a good mother. They don't understand the concept of good enough mothering that Donald Winnicott introduced.

He's a pediatrician and psychoanalyst. And the idea of good enough mothering is that we are present and there, but it doesn't need to be all the time. We don't have to be these perfect mothers. And so this cultural ideal that we grow up around and feel pressured by is hurting all of us. Yeah, I just want to share, I know we've talked about this a little bit on this podcast over the years, but I had a suicide attempt in 2018.

And I try to be open and talk about this because for me it got better, and that's like the message that I always, it gets better campaign really struck a chord with me. I'm like, this was a time in my life where I was not in a happy relationship, I didn't like my job, I didn't like where I lived. I was going through so many daily things

that weren't making me happy, and I got to a point where I had a breakdown and attempted. And literally the next morning when I opened my eyes, I was so grateful that I didn't succeed. And I was like, okay, this, like, I gotta change everything about my life now. I gotta, like, I let it get too bad and ignored things for a long time and I have to get a new apartment,

I've gotta get out of this relationship, I gotta get out of this job that I hate. I have to actually make changes because that was too close for me. And now I look at where my life is and where it was and the work it took to get there and I'm like, it absolutely gets better. And I'm grateful I had that experience

before becoming a mother, but I understand how all of those hormones and emotions and feelings with motherhood could easily get you to that same place in depression. But it's part of the reason I have shared my story and talked to friends and anybody who's depressed or feeling like they might be getting to that point. It's like it absolutely gets better.

You will wake up the next morning grateful to be alive. Such a powerful message. I know in some communities, mental health resources are scarce or it might take a while to get in with someone. So if someone is feeling off, where would you recommend that they go? I mean, I would turn to Postpartum Support International.

There are a lot of organizations out there that have 800 numbers and hotlines you can call in. There are also many cities that offer free therapy. So even if people don't have the money to pay top dollar, there are sliding scale clinics all around the country. Yeah, I think, yeah, those are the best places. Yeah. Well, thank you both for being here today. This was something that I have been wanting to open up about for a while and I just felt like May Mental Health Awareness Month turning 40 this week. This was the time. So thank you, Janet, Dr. Zucker for being here today

for this very important conversation and just for opening up about everything. Dr. Zucker's latest book, Normalize It, is available Amazon, Barnes & Noble, I'm sure wherever you get your books. Check it out. You'll see not that, you know, everyone likes to say I like to make things about me.

So also in the book, I blurbed it. Yes, you did. I was so honored. Yay. And you can watch Janet every Tuesday on The Valley on Bravo and listen to her podcast, This Side of the Hill, and leave some nicer comments. Okay.

Let's be nice. And if you haven't yet, you can also pre-order my book, My Good Side Now at mygoodsidebook.com. There are a limited number of signed editions that I need to go home right now and finish signing so get your orders in I'll see you back next week, and thank you guys for listening watching following along my journey Thanks for listening to shenanigans with Sheena Shay. Tune in next time for juicy updates from the world of reality TV, pop culture, and more. Download new episodes every week on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to

listen. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.