Scheananigans with Scheana Shay - Heather Gay On Surviving Mormonism, Marriage & Meredith’s In-Flight Behavior

Episode Date: December 12, 2025

This week, Scheana and Brock sit down with Heather Gay to unpack her powerful new docuseries Surviving Mormonism. Heather shares how the project came to life, how being a “Bad Mormon�� has impacted her business and personal relationships, and the legal threats she’s faced—even from within her own family. She and Brock compare their experiences growing up in the Church, from tithing while living below the poverty line to the pressure of securing a bishop’s approval just to get into BYU (including why Brock’s bishop refused). They dig into why so many former members describe the institution as fear-based and silencing, and they might have even cracked the code for why Mormons make such great reality TV stars! Plus, Scheana and Heather dive into the RHOSLC questions fans are dying to have answered: Will we ever get clarity on the infamous plane incident? Does Lisa Barlow actually have Global Entry? And now that Jen Shah is out of prison, is Heather open to reconnecting? Tune in for truth, humor, healing — and Heather at her most candid. Follow us: @scheana @scheananigans Co-Host: @brockGuest: @heathergay Purchase your very own copy of the NYT Best-selling book MY GOOD SIDE at www.mygoodsidebook.com!Episode sponsors:Get last-minute hosting essentials, gifts for all your loved ones, and decor to celebrate the holidays for WAY less. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. Wayfair. Every style. Every home.Whether it’s a weekend away, a big night out, or a holiday party- your dream wardrobe is just one click away. Head to REVOLVE.com/GOODASGOLD, shop my edit, and take 15% off your first order with code GOODASGOLD. Fast two-day shipping, easy returns - it’s literally the only place you need to shop from. Offer ends December 26th, so happy shopping!Head to https://www.squarespace.com/GOODASGOLD to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code GOODASGOLD.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The following podcast is a dear media production. From Vanderpump rules to motherhood and everywhere in between. Warm up the kettle. It's time to spill some tea. Let's get into some shenanigans with Shea Shea. Welcome back for another episode of shenanigans. We're back in New York.

I've got my husband Brock on the co-host, Mike. We've got Summer Moon in the studio watching. I wanted her to see kind of a little bit more of what Mommy does for work. I mean, she can see. When I asked her recently, she said, well, Mommy signs books. And daddy works. I'll take it. I mean,

it's pretty simple. But I have to say, I've been really looking forward to today's episode because our guest is someone I deeply admire both on and off camera. So much fun at BravoCon. She is also a New York Times best-selling author. Sisterhood.

Yes. A dedicated mom, a bold truth teller, and an advocate for so many women and men who see themselves in her story. So from faith to family to finding her voice, she has shown what it looks like to rebuild your life on your own terms. You know her from the Emmy-nominated Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, but she's also doing truly groundbreaking work as a creator and executive producer, which is so exciting of the new docu series, Surviving Mormonism. It is on Peacock. If you haven't watched it, it is only three parts.

Check it out. It's an easy binge. And just bringing visibility, honesty, and humanity to stories that have been silenced for far too long. So thank you for joining us today, Heather Gay. Thank you for that raving introduction. It's so nice to hear. And like, even when you talking about it and saying it, like, it's still, it's like the first time I'm hearing those things, like, announced about me, you know, like, because it's always been Salt Lake City Housewives, which has been the reason I've been able to do anything else. Right. But it's so

nice when you're recognized for other things. You know, I'm like, I don't want to be sure. Gina from Vanderpombril for the rest of my life. Like, I do other things. Right. But I'm so excited to have you on. Thanks for having me. I'm wanting to have you on for ever since I've been watching. And we're finally doing it.

Yeah, I'm a big fan, big fan, especially now of all your extra work. It hit close to home for me. So I asked if I'm being in New York, can I jump on the pod with you guys? Yeah. Or if you were in L.A. I was going to have you jump on too. Either way. I wanted you to jump on.

Either way. I feel like your story, we can jump to it, but your story just speaks to a lot. of people that have struggled with it, including my mom. Like when I watched it, I thought about all my family members and we can get into it later on, but just thank you very much for. Oh, we're going to get into all of it. For being a voice for them, you know, or for trying to put their thoughts or their feelings into words.

Yeah. That's what I realized when I was watching. I was like, this is what like, and all my family come and gone. Like we all surround. We're like, wait, this is it. This is what we're looking for. So thank you for that. I'm so glad.

It means so much for that you're here. This is going to be great. This was like the connection. You know, there's so. much crossover in the Bravo universe. And some of it's like just because you connect with certain people and some of it's because your lives cross paths. But I just felt like this was like kind of a remarkable full circle moment. Like we're talking in the spinner van. And just like for me to do this doc and then to have your husband also have in many ways survived Mormonism is really

cool. And so I'm glad that we can talk about it and bring light to stories that in this format and platform would never really be touched on. So it's cool. It's cool. And thanks for doing it. It means a lot to me. It worked out. We're both in New York. Same time. We're here for a little family vacation and ice skating trip. Did you film the reunion yet? We filmed the reunion three days ago. Okay. And you survived. Maybe before I survived. And then I did the reality hot seat. NSF. Sunday night football. Which was like the coolest thing ever. And then I'm doing watch what happens live tonight. So like, Sheena, thank you for getting me in.

No, thank you. been what do you call it? Like round robin grand slam, whatever it is, doing it all. So this worked out great. Fun. I'm really happy. Well, I love it. So yeah, we've recently watched the doc and I've just been so excited to sit down with you and talk about it. So for anyone who's listening, who hasn't watched yet, three-part docu-series, like I said, on Peacock. And it explores the hidden and really heartbreaking realities inside the Mormon church. I mean, everything from systemic abuse and silencing to victims to pressures of compliance, obedience, and image that shapes entire families and communities. It follows how many people is it exactly? It follows the

stories like specifically three different stories. Yeah. So the first episode, I felt like was really focused on you and the second one, your friend, the third one, the sisters. Yep. But it is literally these incredibly brave survivors who have finally shared their stories, many of them for the first time. It pulls back the curtain to show how these institutions can enable harm while discouraging accountability. And it is very powerful. It's very emotional. It's honestly just really eye-opening in ways that I don't think we were prepared for. I know my friend was watching it and she was like, I had to take a break from it. Because, I mean, it is. it's heavy. It is and they're and it's like rolling out right after Salt Lake City Housewives episode. So it's like we're like on a yacht screaming and you know like freaking out and then it like rolls right into like. Yeah. Exactly. And it's so it definitely is a huge pivot from anything I've ever done before. But it's also in many ways just like the same story that I've been telling, you know, bad Mormon. But just in a way that highlights I think what you just said. You know, like the way. The way you,

that the institution has like created this culture that has created so many stories. And it's not really about me as much as about like just sharing other people's experiences in a way that hopefully people resonate with and in have more insight into why one, why Salt Lake City Housewives are so crazy. Yeah. And to you know what systems have not been examined yet by the general public and what you know changes could be made to make it a safer environment for everyone. Yeah. Where did the idea for surviving Mormonism come from? Like, was there a moment you realize this story just needs to be told and you weren't afraid to tell it? I mean, I didn't, the whole idea came when I did the book tour. And I mean, and you know doing your book tour, like people resonate to certain parts of your story that you didn't even realize would be what they really hooked on to. And the book had such a huge impact around the world. And like, everywhere I went, people were like sharing their stories over and over that I started to realize. that there was one power in sharing my own story because writing the book helped me so much. And then I also just had the experience of hearing everyone else's experiences and thinking this

platform can be used to shine a light on all of this. Instead of it just like being in my DMs, like let's see what we can do. And I was completely inspired by Leah Remini and her series on Scientology. I mean, she was like, you know, a funny, normal person that was just like shining. lighting light on something that she had access to and had experience. And so I was inspired by her and I thought if there was a world where I could do this, I wanted to. So it's been kind of a passion project for me for four years. That's awesome. So to finally get it made and to finally EP on it was like huge for me. I'm really, really proud of it. So thank you for highlighting it.

I mean, just when we first started watching the first episode the other night and I mean, you were just so well spoken. And I've noticed this just from like our casual conversations, but just like the way you ask questions and you just are very engaging and it's like such an easy watch for that part like just with you I thought you were great and he kept saying that too he was just like wait she's really good at it was just it was just really easy to understand the feeling that you're going through and you were very open about it and then talking through it I think because you lived it yeah you lived it and then the people that can connect with you also have lived it but have had trouble trying to make sense of it all because we

when you go look for help, when there's outside pressure or when you go to the church, you look within for the support you need, you're not going to get that reassurance at all. You're going to get, you know, dismiss, pushed aside, and then told to, you know, focus in. So everything you were saying was like, you know, I can't wait for my mom to watch this. And then I know my cousins, we're all outside of the church now. And so we always have a joke about the church. But watching a documentary kind of like made me want to reach out to my mom. my cousin, but you guys got to watch this because it puts all of our side crazy conversations

like the church and all this. Like, oh, here we go. It puts it into perspective and it really kind of highlights the light. So yeah, that's kind of. That is incredibly like important for me to hear. And I think it's true. It's like it's the first time like we're really talking about it because when you're in the church, you get advice from people within the church. You get instruction from people within the church. You don't get objective people listening to your experience and saying, that's kind and messed up. You know, we don't have anybody to tell us that what our world is is messed up. And so now that we're like adults and we've left or like we're able to look at it, it's really for many the first time that we're talking about it objectively, like with

perspective. Yeah. Were you scared to bring this project into the world just knowing how powerful the church is and, you know, how much pushback you could face? Because you said that you got sued over just putting the word Mormon in your lifetime. Yeah. I mean, they challenged me like putting the word Mormon on mugs and sweat shirts. And I couldn't like sell bad Mormon merch. I had to like give it all away. What a bummer. And I know. Well, it's, you know, now it's like on SC. So I just think that I, I knew that they policed their brand and their image religiously. And so, I mean, no pun intended. But I really, I felt fear mostly from it, not from the church. because the church is nice.

Mormons are nice. I felt fear from hurting the feelings of people who don't want to know this part of the church, who don't want to hear it, who are in their lives very much in a Mormon bubble of security and happiness. And this is something that they don't want any idea that is going on. And so I just felt scared that I was going to, like, create more divide between, you know, my childhood friends and my family that I, that I love, that we're estranged because of you know, projects like this and being outspoken about the church.

But the church itself, like, I was, I'm not afraid of them because it's, I'm, I feel like the victims and these survivors, the church should be afraid of not caring for them. You know what I mean? And hearing their voices, like, no one's going to take the church down. You know, that's not, that's not like the goal here. The goal is just to like make people aware that things could be changed and that the institution is using its power, its kindness, and its image, and its actual followers to perpetuate, you know, cover-ups.

Yeah. Because you cannot break a valiant Mormon. No. No, no, you can't. It's just kind of like the principal with family is forever. Like, that's the key one. And that's what I got to take out of having that as a religion growing up, being born into the church, raised into it, my parents, I think, with third generation.

Yeah. Yeah. And then you're in these communities where it is safe. And you go hang out with your friends down the street because everyone's in this whole thing. You're on it together. And so that's why listening to the same perspective, but articulated differently. It's so incredible. You mentioned estrangement. How would you say your success with the docu series opened? Did it open any doors for like any reconciliation with family members or did it make the estrangement deeper? I don't you never know I mean I have a brother that was like trying to sue I have no one in my families acknowledged it or talked about it that's kind of the way we do you know we just pretend it doesn't exist and we push it aside and you know roll forward with faith so I don't know if it'll deepen the divide but I know that the response from the viewers and from the community outside of the Mormon church has been incredible for you know we say ex-mormons but like

Like, it's really hard to ever be X anything. You know what I mean when you've been raised in it? So I think that the outpouring of support and like appreciation of the show has been really, really rewarding. Yeah. Well, one ex, you do have an ex-husband. Yes. Is he still involved in the church? He is.

Yes. Gotcha. What about your daughters? They're all completely clean and free. We test him every 90 days. And they are still clean and free. nothing going back. One's at you, Miami. You know, sorority life, crazy. One's at you Tampa, just experiencing like life outside of Utah. Nice. My oldest daughter lives in New York.

Fun. Oh, good. So you get to see her. Yeah. That's awesome. It's really fun. If any one of them wanted to marry someone deeply rooted in the church or return to Mormonism, how would that sit with you? It would break my heart. Yeah. It would break my heart. Yeah. It would break my heart because it's, it's not it's it's a false promise of equal partnership but you have no power you have no control and the man is the head of the household and marriage is an accessory to his salvation not to yours yeah yeah no it's just like how do you feel i mean i grew up with that with my mom so we're the youngest of five and then my mom dealt with that whole the whole relationship with my dad and then with the church involved and he was very they were very much involved

And then through his misdemeanors and everything, my mom had to always turn up, keep the family together. And it was always felt like that. So that's really, it's really a shame that it's gone that route with it all. When you say misdemeanors? Well, just kind of like, well, playing up, he had affairs. He got himself in this, I've never asked questions. Oh, criminal records. Yeah, like, all this mischievous things.

Just the wisdom behind. The mom just covers up. My mom, she ate, she ate it, she ate it and ate it. I'm the youngest to five, so through all my brothers and sisters. And then enough, finally when I was two, she kind of was like, look, this isn't it. And we were the black sheep of our whole community. You know, my older two brothers were getting into trouble all the time. And then I think for our family, the straw that broke to camp was broke with my

older sister, Alina, who's now 20 years sober. But when she came out gay, my grandma and half my family had a problem with that. And that was for me at 14 years old, realizing like, wait, you're family's forever. what happened to, you know, this, but that, oh, it's only pending on if you follow the rules. Yeah, there's no, there is no allotment for anything outside of the normal. You know, we don't acknowledge transgender, homosexuality. We know that these things exist, but they, we believe that they go away when you get to heaven. Yeah.

Oh, right. I get my finger back. Yeah, he's, he'll be fully restored. And if he was gay, he'd be fully straight. Oh, what? That is just wild. Keep the finger. I find a change.

Literally. Would you say that your sister coming out is the reason that your family, like, officially stepped away from the church? Like, does your mom still go? No, my mom, my mom still holds on to it. It's her faith. And she really, but obviously not being in the, going to the church every weekend, going to sacramental partaking in that, it kind of allows her enough separation from it.

But I know she still yearns for that because that's all she knew of. And that's what she was saying. like it's especially that generation exactly yeah so i know i think for her she just tries to see the light in it and just and she's she's made her bed with this so she kind of has to work through that and i hope that she is happier and i hope that everybody is yeah with with following and like being motivated empowering from your story yeah yeah i think there was a part in that documentary where you were kind of like why me like why am i in charge of this no literally when you said that it was so powerful because I can feel that way at times too. I think anyone in the reality TV space where

you're like, I'm just an idiot housewife. I was like, oh, but you're not. You're so much more than that. You're an advocate. You're an ally. And you're someone who has a voice. But it's easy to just feel like, oh, I'm just a reality star. But it's like, if you think about it, I think you said this the other day. He's like, honey, you're the celebrity to celebrities. You know, it's like, I mean, A-less celebrities are watching our show. We are us. on our show. We're not playing a character. So we have such a reach that so many people can relate to us. So when you said that, I just wanted to give you a hug because I'm like, you were so much more than that. And you mean so much more to a lot of people. I think there's

like 17 million people in that religion and documented in it. You know, and half of them are females. So there's a lot. There's a lot there. So what was the first moment you felt like something was off that just didn't sit right with you with the church? I mean, when they said no coffee. Stop holding hands. It's like, it's, you don't, I never, everything's always hard. Yeah. It's never, it's just like, like, oh, like, but you're surrounded by everyone living the exact same way and so happy that you're just like, I don't need coffee.

I don't need alcohol. I don't need any of that because I have friends. I have happiness. I have the whole world at my feet. And so I think, family home evenings. Yeah, family home evenings. Like everything is structured so that you, to really contain the human experience. You know, we don't talk.

about like hopelessness or disappointment or addiction or, you know, pain. It's just like if you live this way, you will be happy, you will be together. And then all of a sudden you have a family member come out or your dad has an affair or the plan breaks down in some way. And instead of saying, oh, it's because it's impossible to live a perfect life just by a set of rules. We say you weren't living the rules enough. You weren't doing it enough. And like, you weren't enough of a wife. You shouldn't be a better daughter. Like we always look inward to what we weren't doing. to make Mormonism break. And the truth is, like, it's not built to survive.

And so I think that it was always hard, but it always worked. It was really when I got divorced that I thought, holy crap, like, I don't fit in anymore. Like, I don't, you know, like, you're like this dangling puzzle piece. Like, everyone is a family. Everyone is a unit. You don't go to church. It's just like, I didn't know one that was divorced and thriving. Like, if you're divorced, you get remarried.

immediately. Because you can't get to heaven without a husband. So I can't just sit around like, you know, I'm just going to be single the rest of my life. Like if I want to get back into heaven, I need to find a man to take me to the temple and get me there. Interesting. Yeah. Because a few of my Mormon friends on their second marriage, it was very quick after the first. Yeah. Because it's all about the family. It's all about marriage. So that would be the first time that I thought, okay, I don't want to be Mormon anymore because I can't be Mormon the right way. So I started drinking. and sleeping around. And, like, I was devastated by the divorce.

I was single for the first time in my life. I was a virgin when I got married, you know? So, like, all of a sudden, it's like, oh, it broke down for me. The program's not working. Now that I'm, like, falling off the cliff, I might as well, like, self-medicate. Yeah. Yeah. So that would be the first moment that I really.

Yeah. And then I started to realize, like, something bigger came along. Like, the show, this life, like, all these things. So, like, when you say your mom's still in. I get that. I probably would be too because it's all we know. I had luckily something bigger come along and like kind of pull me out of it. And I, because of that, I feel, you know, obligated to use this platform to like help others. It's helping. Yeah, it definitely is. Did leaving the church impact your business at beauty lab and laser? It didn't because we built the business. I started

building business when I was divorced. So I already, everybody kind of knew that I wasn't, the carbon copy. The black sheep over here. Yeah, it was the black sheep of it already. And we built a business with transparency and kind of honesty. And so we attracted customers that weren't worried about frequenting, you know, someone, a black sheep's business. But I did worry about it. My customers are Mormon and I love them. And I love that business. Like I built it and it's been, it's been, you know, my lifeline. So you worry, every move you make in Salt Lake City, you worry that you're going to offend people you love. Because they love the church and they love being Mormon.

And you don't want to take that from them, but I also don't want to disregard my friends who didn't love it and who were hurt by it. And I want to say, well, their stories matter too. Even if it makes you uncomfortable, even if it hurts your feelings, the stories of the people that didn't work out for should be heard as well. Yeah, definitely. Take a quick little break, check on this kid and we'll be our back. all right y'all the holidays are here i know it just comes up so quick you know it's like it feels like it's so far away and then it just creeps up on you and here's why i want to talk to you again about wayfair because you can get what you need very fast with wayfair from beddings and linens

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And so I kind of got the vibe. But when I watched the documentary and then you go into the history of Mormonism to Utah and the creation of the city of like we had a town. You have a city and a state, but a city. It must be so like, like this, it's, it's just so much more. Yeah. I mean, the wealth is astounding. They estimate like 260 billion and people are like, oh, it's more than that.

Like every time you say something, but like we have land in New Zealand, we have land in Australia. We have temples and real estate in every tiny, tiny branch of the world. I mean, a temple in New Zealand is crazy. Temple view, it was Church College of New Zealand. So we had our own high school church college for Mormon kids, boys and girls could go there, CCNZ. And I was about to go there. And then it shut down the year, my junior year was going to go to it. Why did you get shut down?

Do you know? I think it was just funding or I don't know. There was obviously, I did hear there. There was a lot of issues going on in there as well, behavioral with the students and everything. And then you always hear that. My cousins all went to it. I was going to go there and then my plan was CCNZ and then BYU. And then when I went to, when I wanted to go to the college route, I went to our bishop.

He's like, I'm not writing your recommendation. Yeah, you can't get into the school unless the bishop write to a letter. And, like, you have to follow all the rules. You got to follow the rules. So you were honest and most people just lie. Yeah. No, we also, our families grew up together. And so our families grew up together.

And then the bishop and their daughter, like, we used to, like, hang out often. So we kind of had a close family, but he's like, I'm not going to write your recommendation. I was like, thanks, buddy. I realized that. I realized that. Yeah, that was one of my path when I first wanted to move to America. I was like, oh, go to BYU. Yeah.

Let's do it. And then, and then, yeah. Luckily, you dodged that bullet. You did. And it worked out so much better. In the docu-series, you touch on the three levels of heaven in the Mormon church. What does that look like? And how does that concept impact the way that you think Mormons live their lives?

Well, I mean, I even talked about it like on Housewives, like, trying to explain, like, we believe there's three levels of heaven. And, like, if you're just medium good, you get in this one. if you're, you know, a little bit better, you get in the second level. And if you're perfect, you get into the third level of heaven, which is really what heaven is. Wouldn't you say? Like, we think that's what heaven is.

The rest are like mini hells. Yeah, yeah. There's also pros and cons, right? Because you can always descend and go see your friends if they're below you. But you can never, you can never go up to see them up there. Yeah, the ladder only goes down. So it's like, they would tell you, like, you have to be perfect. So, like, you can go visit Brock down in the telrestrial world and be like, buddy, why couldn't

you give up coffee you could be up here with us and we are the best things going you know running around holding hands and drinking coffee and just yeah so we it's and like the the level of perfection of the celestial kingdom which is heaven is a life devoid of all sin like no smoking drinking alcohol bad thoughts you know you give 10% of your incomes like you can control those yeah yeah i mean i've been trusive thoughts on the regular what level would you think I think Donnie and Marie would be on? Donnie Marie are going in the celestial kingdom. It doesn't matter what they do.

Yeah. They are so pure and good and wonderful and funny. You know what I mean? Yeah. Could you say a negative thing about Donnie and Marie Asman? No. No. What about Jared?

Jared. Osmond. Jared, you know, I feel like the last name might get them in. I mean, the church really does love the Osmond's. And Jared is working through it. You know, life is long. And the good thing is that we love men in the Mormon church. So if Jared just lifts a pinky and says he wants to change, they'll be like, you're in.

You're in. Well done. There you go. Here you go. We want you, but we want you. Yeah. One thing I thought was interesting in the documentary was when you mentioned the church requires 10% tithing, even if a family member can barely afford food, that you should

give your money to the church. It was like a highlight real of a state conference maybe. Yeah, general authorities. General Thornton said that. If you can't afford to eat, pay tithing. If it's eat or tithing, pay tithing. Well, did you grow up with that type of rule of that tithing? And we also grew up, like, eat or tithing, and it was always the church. And like it put, didn't put it. I think we always live with like, okay, we can always give and you'll always receive. Right. Which is kind of the messaging that our family adopted on that. But we were pop. We're in below poverty line. Yeah. And we were still asking and still asked to give the money to the church. And then obviously we got out one more younger, but yeah, it's a part of it, which also,

but I think it's also the lessons of abundance, but there's other ways to teach that. Yeah, I mean, I understand the concept of tithing. I think it's a religious concept that we all, you know, embrace, like to give back to your community and to God and for all of your many blessings. But, you know, I was a single divorced mom and I was supposed to pay tithing on my alimony. And it's like, you're supposed to pay tithing on anything that any increase that you get. And it's not, it's, it's, it's Mormon tax. And it's, you can't attend the temple or participate in the activities unless you are paving your tithing. So it's very much like a country club. Like if you want to see your children get married at the temple, you make sure that your tithing is paid in good standings. In good standings. How do they know what 10% is? Like, are you literally turning in your taxes? That's what's interesting is a lot of people lie because they want to be esteemed as wealthier. Right. So like if you only made 10,000, you might go to your bishop and pay $2,000 so that he thinks you made $20,000.

Wow. So people love to give their tithing because it's a status in ranking within the church. And it's not a begrudged. It's like, oh, I paid 50% tithing this year. You know, it's a way to show your devotion to God. And because everyone counts it, it's like a way to, like, kind of hedge how much you actually make. So you could be impoverished and still pay the same amount of tithing because you don't

don't want anyone in the community to know that your finances are in free fall. Do you think famous Mormons are treated differently? I've heard, well, I'm the first famous Mormon. And I would say yes. I have heard, I've heard this from John DeLinn and a couple like Mormon mentors that I have that have really guided me through the process. And they say that they don't excommunicate celebrities. like they don't do anything that could bring negative publicity like if there's like I mean I'm just like

well don't worry I don't think my fans would care but you know what I mean like if they were to say something mean about rock like it would be like they would never because they don't want their kind and so I don't know I mean I know every single Mormon that was ever even famous at all but they've all left the church now you know but I know everyone that cross paths at BYU like I could list them all yeah I wrote a chapter for my second book just being like let's talk about Mormons in reality TV because we do well on reality TV literally because we understand what it is to be performative you know to show up on Sunday and have been like drinking the night before and miserable and just be like brothers sisters in the gospel you know so I think that

that's that that we develop a skill set that you know kind of gives us that emotional durability to go on TV and to take it in the teeth and to, and Mormons are really good at being made fun of and kind of swallowing it and being self-deprecating about it. And you kind of have to have that durability if you're going to go, you know, in public, on the public. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we have Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, obviously, Secret Lives and Mormon Wives. I feel like Utah is definitely just having a moment in the unscripted TV department with this. What would you want audiences to better understand about Utah life? I think Secret Lives of Mormon Wives is a really,

good job of showing it. Salt Lake, we do a great job of showing the way Mormon lives, women live that don't want to be acknowledged as Mormon, you know, that want to be, like, fancy. But watching Secret Lives and Mormon lives has been really fascinating to me because they're so much more open about the things of the faith that I feel like in Salt Lake, we just didn't really talk about, you know, like Lisa Barthor and I really thought about what it meant to be Mormon season one. It was Mormon 2.0 versus Mormon. And like, I wish that conversation, kind of got squashed by the end of season two. Like, we don't fight about it anymore.

We just were, like, agree to disagree. That's all I'll say. And then we'll do a documentary. And then we'll talk about it. No, but Secret Lives and Mormon Lives, they're just like, yeah, my husband said I couldn't invite them to the party because they're drinking, you know, or my husband said this. And, like, that's the Mormonism I knew. So I felt very validated.

Yeah. And, like, just like, yeah. I was right all along. Look at how they lived. But that's how we live. They're very much who I was 20 years ago. Yeah. And Whitney and Brittany and Britney, Ronwin.

Like, we all have been, we all have touched on it, you know. Yeah. And that's in the water. Mm-hmm. It's in the water. And as you know, it's hard, it's hard to, it's like black ink. Well, I think, I think growing up, like, it especially in families, like, it was the brought, like, it was the happiness around it.

It was like the getting together of the families. It was kind of like, it was built on the pieces. found within the family, you don't need external things to kind of bring it, bring light or happiness into the family. And I think that was something that also made it very kind of attractive for us. Yeah. Oh, everything else was crazy outside, but we're safe here. We're safe in our family and we can get together and, you know. Yeah, we have like things like not of the world. Like we're a peculiar people. We stick to ourselves. Like we used to be very proud about that. What was your favorite like family home evening game that you played with the family? Oh, well, family home evening. My

favorite game was, first of all, being in charge of the tree. You know how someone's in charge of the lesson, someone's in charge of the prayer, someone's towards the song. But like, we as a family, I'm trying to think what game we would always play. We played Mexican train a lot, Domino's. Did you guys ever do that? No, tell us what that is. No, it's just like, there's a little train at the center and you, like, all build dominoes. And then once you get your domino line, you push the train and it chew-chews. But board games are like, like, we do puzzles, settlers of Catan, Monopoly, Life. Always board games. board games, board games, board games.

And every Monday night is just for the family. Game night. So you're not allowed to go to soccer or dance or homework. You just sit home, game night, family night. Okay. And everything is surrounded by the church, you know. We used to have, I remember this one because it was chocolate, but it was like a block of chocolate.

And then we had oven mitts on. And then the person next year would roll two dice. And if they rolled a double, then they get to take over and eat as much chocolate as they could with a knife and a fork, a block of chocolate. Before the next person rolls double. Other mitts. And then you had other you had to put the other mitts on or the person next is rolling their dyes. And then you had to try. He had to eat some chocolate. Yes. Also, did you do the one of you had to spoon cotton balls? Yeah. Oh, we do that at Christmas. Uh-huh. It's where exactly. We just decided to do it every week. Once a year, once a week. Yeah, that's how men's are. That's how we do. So even with everything that you now know have learned through the documentary and everything, you still. You still.

have faith. You still believe in God. Absolutely. Yeah. I absolutely believe in God. I do. I don't think he does. Well, it's, I just, I think it's not that I don't believe in God at all. I just believe in that I, in the family. I believe in my family. I believe in us and trying to help everybody else out. Along my journey, I hope I do find God again. I do. I look forward to that. You went to church last week. And that's it. I don't say no to it. But I'm also kind of like, look, I think it's, it's in my own hands. Yeah, it's how I treat people.

Because our access to God was one specific way. And so if you cut off that path, it's really hard to picture a God that's not Mormon God. You know what I mean? Or a religion that doesn't work that way. So for a long time, I mean, not a long time. I've only been years. But like I just realized,

I just pretended like I didn't believe in anything. But the truth is I believe in the universe. I believe in God. I don't believe in like white-bearded Mormon God anymore. But I absolutely believe in being spiritual and having religion. and faith. And I think that there is good things and routine and family activities, you know, and having like, on Sundays we do this. I just don't want to go to church for three hours and give 10% of my money and 40% of my time and then be told that whoever I am is unacceptable to whoever

they want me to be. Yeah. Yeah. That's one thing with just, you know, raising this beautiful little sleeping angel over there. I want to introduce her to religion, spirituality. angels, heaven, all the things. But it's like, I don't know how. I was raised Catholic. You know, you go to church every Sunday. You do your baptism, first communion, confirmation, all of the things. I went to a private Catholic high school. And then I went to a Christian university. And I was like, oh, I don't ever want to go back to the Catholic Church. Like, this is way better. But I just, Do you have any tips for introducing religion of any sort to a child? I mean, it's so hard because so much of my parenting was about teaching them about religion, you know,

teaching them how to, you know, pray, how to look, how to act. This is what we do on. And I wanted it because it made me feel secure growing up. So I wanted them to feel like you can always pray to Heavenly Father. You have this community that loves you. You know, you have church. And like it made Christmas more special. It made Easter more special.

It made, they had a father's blessing every year before school. Like all of these rituals that really did unite us as a family. Yeah. And kind of were little milestones for life. You know, if I didn't look back, like, I cherish my blessing dress, my baptism dress, you know. When I was 12 and got to go to young women's and I got a medallion of perfection or whatever, you know, like it's called personal progress medallion. But, you know, those things, I, young single, yeah, wait, YSL, young single adult. We call it different in New Zealand, actually, but it's the young, yeah, it's the, we used to call it the MUA, the multiple improvement association, and then they change it to young women, YW, and young men, young men, anyway, just let us have our more.

We just, we just always hung out with each other. We just hung out with each other. This state, this ward and yet this state events, yeah, it lost take back. I was in, that was when I did all my place. to be fair. When I was in theater, I did all of the church plays. Like the road shows and the stuff that the church would put on. Yeah. Uh-huh. He grew up practically the same way, which is beyond. He was in New Zealand. And I was in Salt Lake City. And like, we played the same games on Monday nights. Yeah. It is a cult of personality that is like, we could go to dinner and

talk for like 10 hours and no one would nobody, we were even talking about. You know what I mean? Like it's such a common experience, which is why I think it's fun to like have people come out of the woodwork. that grew up Mormon and be like, hey, me too, me too, me too. I know. I'm like, him and I could not have been raised more differently. He's the youngest of five raised on a farm, Mormon in New Zealand. And I was an only child for 12 and a half years just outside of L.A. That is crazy.

I know. So how are you going to like address religion? It's so hard because you want her to have the beautiful white dress, but you don't want her to be indoctrinated with all the BS. Yeah, that's the thing. It's like we never did a baptism or a blessing. She doesn't have Godparents. It is different to how I grew up.

But it's like the older I've gotten and after just, I mean, because there's bad stuff in the Catholic Church as well. Everybody's got stuff. Yeah. The priest who I used to do the teen mass, I would stand up. I would do all the scripture readings. I loved reading out loud as a kid. So the audiobook making the New York Times best selling list.

I was like, that's her little, yes. I love that too. I stood up every Sunday at church at Teen Mass. And then father was caught in. in Mexico with the altar boys, and then he just never came back. And I'm like, that was like, it was my dude, you know? I mean, you were right there next to him. I had no idea. And so I'm like, oh, I'm never raising my kids Catholic, but I mean, it's just religion in general, you know, and then watching this scene how, how dark. Horrifying. Yeah. Horrifying. So I, it's one thing

I'm struggling with. Like literally last night she was in the bath and my mom, I'm packing, my mom was trying to wash her hair. And she was, no, I just want to play for a minute. But the way she said it, my mom goes, wait, you want to pray? And she goes, pray. She goes, I said play. And she was, what's pray? And my mom's like, oh, you know, if you want to like pray to your angels or Jesus. She's like, I just want to play. And I'm like, but I'm like, I mean, look, I think to answer, that we're dealing with the little kids. They're four. Once they figure out life as it comes through, you have to lead by example. That's how I think religions is in targeted for a kid. we're looking at. It's Episcopalian. They do chapel every day, but I'm like, you know what?

I kind of like that to start your day with a little song and lesson and whatnot. So I'm like, okay, well, if she goes to this school, that's a way to kind of introduce it as well. But we have to keep your hands clean a little bit. Like, is that what they said? Well, how do you feel about that? Yeah. It doesn't come from your own mouth. Yes. It's Jesus's birthday. And it's like, who's Jesus? And you're just like, ah, so many, she's in the question stage. Yeah. Where she just wants to ask questions about everything. And I don't have. the answers. I'm like, I don't know. What do you think? You know what? You do have to like think not was what what what have I been told to think that like really what what is special about

Christmas like it kind of strips it all the way and I'm like I used to say to my kids like if you don't believe in Santa then then you don't believe there'll be any presents under the tree like I would really like put so much pressure on like this blind belief. Yeah. And I think there's just much more nuance in figuring it out alongside your kids. Well you've also they've also helped you out with called Alf on a shelf. Yeah, Elf on a shelf. So that's kind of a great way to kind of a segue about that. Remind you, it brings the family together, mom and dad and night, what are we going to do

for this elf this day? It's the most pressure you'll ever experience as a parent is elf on the shelf. Literally. And I've seen some gnarly ones recently of parents that I'm like, you are scarring your children. It was like, well, you touched the elf, you took its magic away. And it was just like chicken wing bones. Oh, yeah.

I saw that. Oh, my gosh. It was a straight chicken, chicken carcass. But like, they're like, because they had touched it. Yeah, because you have to have your special magic gloves. But those magic gloves, yeah. Well, I got caught like early morning, 4 a.m. Like adding like a tiny detail to make it special on the elf.

And like my middle daughter, Georgia, walked out and saw it. And like, that scarred me for life. Yeah, her face. Like, are you? And I said, no, no, no, no, no, no. She dropped her wand. She dropped her wand. I picked it up.

I didn't touch her. and I just flung it back onto her. The back petal, the back. Oh my gosh. She wakes up every morning. She's on, it's been on Sheena's Instagram every morning and she loves it. She writes letters to Alf throughout the whole year.

She misses them. Now we've got a girl Alf. So it's great. And that's, I think, in time when we get to those conversations, but I think it's just teaching her how to be kind, how to have empathy for people.

and yeah, I think we start there and then allow religion to work find this way back to both of us. I agree out. But just be good. Not over there. It's kind of like the Christmas spirit is kind of what religion is.

You know, like doing good to all men and feeling joy and believing in magic and believing in each other. And so I kind of, you know, that's my new religion. Christmas all year round. All right. There we go.

Christmas every day. Right. Okay. One more quick little break and we'll be right. that. And if you're looking to do something for yourself, if there's something you've always been wanting to do online, something you want to sell, a website, however you want to design it, then I recommend you check out Squarespace. Because this podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. So I have personally used this when I'm either selling merch, my binals.

I've done not only my website, but also Squarespace payments, and it has just made it so easy for me. So Squarespace payments is the easiest way to manage your payments all in one place with Squarespace. Onboarding, it's fast, it's simple. It's like you can get started in just a few clicks and start receiving payments right away. Plus, you can give your customers more ways to pay with popular payment methods like Apple Pay, After Pay, Clear Pay, A, C,H, direct debit and Klarna. Basically, Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs who want to stand out and succeed online. So whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website, engage with your

audience, and sell anything from products, the content, to time, all in one place, and all on your terms. Head to Squarespace.com slash good as gold for a free trial. And when you're ready to want, use good as gold to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Okay. Back to the documentary. So in surviving Mormonism, you revealed that three days, three days into your marriage, you realized you and your ex weren't compatible. Looking back, what do you wish you could tell that version of yourself? Just get out, get divorced, just to start over. Beings laid it. Free him, free yourself. It's not worth it. Yeah. And that's hard to say. When you have three beautiful children that are your everything, obviously.

But it just wasn't an option for me. And so I would have told myself, there's another path. There's another, there's another man. Maybe you don't get married. But the reality of not being married was just like too much of a horror. That it was just like, well, I got one. I got to make this one work. Yeah.

Yeah. Wow. Congressman Robert Garcia. So he had famous, you remember the receipts, proof. Timeline, fucking everything. Yeah, he had famously worked your quote into an impassioned speech on the Congress floor, which is so cool whenever something like that, you know, makes it that way. Passes over like that, yeah, it's very cool.

Was also recently on Watch What Happens Live and said he could see you as a politician one day. Is that something you would ever explore? No. Let's go. Have you heard my mouth? Like, I am so unfiltered and I put my foot in it every day. And, like, I give zero bucks about politics. Like, I just don't, I want to, like, try to do good and be impassioned, be an advocate, be an ally.

But the politic world of it is just so swampy to me. And I don't, and I really respect and love what he does. And I love that he quoted me. Thank you. Yeah. But I leave that to the people that are much smoother and well-versed than I am. Okay. Gotcha.

Can we do a little? I'll throw money toward it, but I don't want it. Yeah. If you, would you, would you ever do any type of political movement? Are you kidding? I'm from president. I'm just, you know what kind? No.

No, you can go back to. No? I'm going to New Zealand and I'm going to be a mayor of a town back home. Oh, I'd vote for you to be mayor of any town. I'm making New Zealand great again. That's where I'm going. Yes. I could see you absolutely doing that for me.

No prime minister, but just like, all the city, just to have enough say to be like, my guys. Yeah. And just when you walk in, everyone is like stands up. little bit. I have big plans. Big plans for New Zealand. I love New Zealand. Okay, so we only have a few minutes left while this angel naps, but I want to do some rapid fire because I have so many questions I've been dying to ask you. I'm also behind on Salt Lake right now. I'll catch you up. I'll catch you up. Whatever you need. Perfect. Okay. So rapid fire, quick answers, whatever comes to

mine first. You don't have to go deep unless you want to. Okay. Okay. Meredith on the plane. Do we, think we will ever get the full story of what went down. Like, producers were there, right? Why didn't anyone record? Tune into reunion. We address it for 15 hours. Perfect. Damn. Okay. Great. Just like the 12 hours. 12 hours. My math is terrible. Yeah. The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. Their reunion, they filmed for 12 hours and edited it into one. Because they cut everything out. I don't know why they're filming a reunion while still filming a season. They're still filming their season. So they're filming season four. As they did the season, they filmed their seasons in, like, it's one shot, like, but they batch it in two.

Well, that's weird. Yeah, yeah. And I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, exactly, I think for them, if you're doing that, and then they can't have, you know, they can't have closure or right, or any result. Then it's like, well, wait for the next season. Just go next season. Just run it.

Yeah, stop copying housewives. You don't need to have a reunion. Yeah, right? Yeah, I would recommend, I would recommend them just to do every other year, have a reunion where they stop filming so they can have that. Yeah. You have to have a break. You have to hear what everyone's saying about you.

That's the whole purpose of reunion, right? You know, to like tie it all together and hold everyone accountable for their professionals. Not to cut half of it out because it's storyline for the next season. It's like, it didn't make sense. No, our reunion, we cover it and we go through it and we address that specific question multiple times. And because we just filmed it, you got to tune it. And it's in a few weeks.

It's going to, it'll all come out. This type of filming schedule makes sense. Right? Thank you. Totally. Bravo makes sense. Bravo. After break.

Bravo, bravo. Bravo, bravo. Bravo, bravo. Brittany said the plane incident was only the sixth, the worst thing in her life. Do you think anything with Jared made the top five? I believe, yes, it did because at her cavaray show, she threw a little, like, diss to Jared. He was in the audience when I was there. And I think she labeled that as the fourth or fifth.

Oh, okay. Yeah, you were absolutely right. Jared made the top six. Yeah. Top five. Yep, top six. Okay. Does Lisa Barlow have global entry? She didn't on that trip. And my understanding is that if you have global entry, you universally have global entry. Yes, you do. So, I mean, I don't know. I don't know people's TSA access, but she has no reason to not qualify. But I do not believe she has it. Okay. Has Meredith ever seen crazy rich Asians? Not the ending. And I would say not past the midpoint. Pet fish as party favors, yes or absolutely not? I say absolutely yes.

Sorry, I mean, yes, because I kept that beta for like six months and we loved it. And it's just fun to like, it's like a birthday party favor. Like you never get to go home with a live fish. Right. Unless you're 10 years old. You're going home with a responsibility. Yeah, but it's very small. It's a very small.

It's a big. And beta can like eat their own. flesh, I think. Like, they're fine. They live in, like, this much water. You can't keep them in. I mean, they have to be by themselves. Yeah.

There was, oh, well, back in the day, it's wild, you can keep this in or not. But, like, whenever I, if I talk to a girl and she's like, I got a boyfriend, but like, oh, I got a pet fish. And they're like, what? It was, oh, I was talking about things that don't matter. That's funny. I'm using that line. I love it.

The Colonial Party iconic. Bravo loves a themed party, you know? Yes. What has been your favorite themed party over the years? I mean, honestly, that Boston Tea Party was insane. It felt like being like on a set of Pirates of the Caribbean. Like, I loved it. That's going to have to take the cake.

Although I did love our pioneer bonnet luncheon where we like churned our own better. You guys do. You guys do a good job. Made like the corn cob dolls and wore bonnets. So those would be my top too. Okay. Love it. I do have to say that while I can empathize with Bronwyn not wanting to talk about Todd's, you know, alleged indiscretions, your comments around the hilarity and absurdity of the whole thing. You know, Todd was making out farting. Also, completely valid. I feel like after this season, though, we maybe need to send Bronwyn some cherries, you know, or maybe some like Vina for Todd. She has earned like a gross amount of cherries like 144, you know, a lot of Maraschino cherries that

she just can have at her leisure to eat and maybe some Fabriz for dealing with Todd. Yeah. Maybe a little air freshener. I don't know. Cool guy. Care package, a care package for Broadway. Thoughts and prayers. Okay, don't hate me for asking this, but can't help myself.

Your former friend, castmate, Jen Shaw, had her prison release date moved up. Any thoughts? Have you? I think it's today. I've heard it was today. Yeah. Have you heard from her? Not, no. I wasn't one of the first calls she made. She had one call. I wasn't hearing. I don't think so. I think that chapter is closed for both of us. Yeah. Andy said she's not coming back. So Salt Lake is small, but, you know, we've been able to avoid people in Salt Lake that we haven't wanted to see. I mean, personally, and other people. So I don't think we'll cross paths. Okay, good. Love Hotel.

Yes. What's your message? to potential suitors who might be on the fence about applying and putting up that part of their life on reality TV. Okay, so this is the interesting thing. Like, I have not been asked to be on Love Hotel. Oh, really?

I've not been on Love Hotel. I was, they voted and said they wanted to see me one day on Love Hotel. Well, okay. And I would say to potential suitors, like, sign up. Do it. You know, like fill it out. do all the paperwork, be vetted.

Yeah, for sure. Okay. But also just living in a hotel with like Portia for like three weeks, you know what I mean? Like who else did they say was going to go? Sonia. Uh-huh. Like if it was me, Sonia, Portia, and like some other fun house vibe. And would there be men and women if Porsche was going in?

Well, I don't know. I feel like Porsche is just going to keep Love Hotel strictly men. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, you know that I was on that girl's trip with Portia in Thailand and a psychic said that she, there's lesbianism in her future. And we all cried laughing. And so did Portia. And that was four years ago. So here we are. I'm open. I'm open to the ebbs and flows. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. Okay. Last one. How many people did Mary say died in 2003 in the heat wave that led to the best grapes of all time? I feel like she said 3,000 people died. 5600. Oh my gosh, my numbers. Give me a trivia that's not numbers. I mean, that's just what the fact say. And it says, so actual estimates range from around 20,000 to over 70,000 across

Europe, with France particularly hard hit with around 14,000 plus six. And what season was this for the grape? What wine was this? 2003. 2003, the dong. But you guys think of that. 2003. That's not like ancient times. That was in our lifetime. Yeah, I was in college. Yeah, what's going on? I didn't hear about this death wave. It's probably, I mean, there's probably 50,000 deaths. How many, how many deaths a year in America?

I don't know. It's a lot. But from Don Paranyan? That's crazy. From the vineyard? We still drink the, we still, oh, it was the heat wave that created the grapes that killed the people. I'll take that.

I'll drink it. I thought it was for some reason poisonous champagne and that was turning me off. No, you're right. Yeah. I got it. Story, straight. The grapes. clear. Yeah, yeah. All right. So every week on shenanigans, we name a jack's hole and we give flowers.

Okay. So the jack's hole, I am making the dad from part three of the documentary. Yeah. He is more than a jacks hole. He needs to just. I mean, we should let the viewers know this jackshole of a man abused his daughters for decades and they recorded him admitting to all of it. And hearing the way the church dealt with him and protected him and provided for him is worth enough to watch. If you tune in for episode three just to see this man and hear his voice and hear his indignance, it's like compelling television. For the older daughter to say that she kept letting it happen so he wouldn't do it to someone else, just gave me chills to be like, I'm so strong, I can take it so like he doesn't do

it to someone else or my little sister. Her little sister. Oh, I just got chills again. But this week, my flowers are going to go to you. What? Yeah. Or just your absolute fearlessness in taking on some of the most powerful institutions in the country, you know? Just using your voice to advocate for people who have been silenced, dismissed, or just deeply harmed by it.

I just think it is absolutely incredible what you're doing. You are so much more than an idiot housewife. You are not an idiot at all. And what you're doing with this documentary, you know, it isn't just storytelling, it's truth-telling. And it's exposing the systems that have protected abusers, failed victims, and just taught generations to shrink themselves for the sake of image. I think it takes a different kind of bravery to confront something that shaped literally your entire life, your family, your community, and still, you know, to choose to stand in the light and say, this isn't right. Like you should be very,

very proud of yourself for what you're doing. Just showing survivors, you know, that they matter, their stories matter, they deserve space, and they're not alone.

And I just think you are an incredible woman in so many ways. And this documentary just made me love you even more. So, my gosh.

Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you for having me. We finally did it in New York. I know. We're so cool.

I know. I was like, I'll come to Salt Lake. You're like, I'll come to us. Yeah, we made this happen. Here we are in New York. So if you guys have not already, check it out.

Three Part Series Surviving Mormonism on Peacock, new episodes of Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. We got through the union coming up soon. Can't wait. Best season ever. Yes. Well done, ladies. Well done. It is so, so good.

And this is great. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks for listening to Shananagan's with Sheena Shea. Tune in next time for juicy updates from the. the world of reality TV, pop culture, and more. Download new episodes every week on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen.

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