Scheananigans with Scheana Shay - Why We Love the Way We Do (Attachment Styles Explained)

Episode Date: January 30, 2026

Attachment styles are everywhere — but what do they actually mean, and how much do they shape the way we love? This week, Scheana is joined by leading attachment theory expert Thais Gibson (founder of The Personal Development School) to break down the four attachment styles, why our adult relationships mirror our earliest bonds, and how insecurity shows up in communication, conflict, and connection. Scheana opens up about learning she’s securely attached, while her husband Brock discovered he has a fearful avoidant attachment style — sparking an honest conversation about what it really takes to make different styles work together. Thais explains why attachment styles aren’t fixed, how patterns like people-pleasing, self-sabotage, and emotional withdrawal form, and what actually helps move toward secure attachment. This episode isn’t about labels or blame — it’s about awareness, responsibility, and doing the work. If you’ve ever wondered why certain relationship patterns keep repeating, this conversation might explain everything.Visit university.personaldevelopmentschool.com and use code PDS2026 for 20% off of the Personal Development School’s 90-Day Attachment Healing membership.Follow us: @scheana @scheananigans Guest: @thepersonaldevelopmentschool  Purchase your very own copy of the NYT Best-selling book and audiobook MY GOOD SIDE at www.mygoodsidebook.com!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The following podcast is a dear media production. From Vanderpump Rules to Motherhood and everywhere in between. Warm up the kettle. It's time to spill some tea. Let's get into some shenanigans with Sheena Shea. Hello, everyone, and welcome back for another week of shenanigans. So last night, I was talking to a close friend of mine, and he told me that his relationship had just ended recently because they had different attachment styles. When he said that, it really stopped me

in my tracks. This is something that I've heard about a lot. I've heard the terms attachment styles. I just assumed I was an anxious attachment style because I'm an anxious person, but I didn't actually understand what it meant on a deeper level. And he was one of the only people I've talked to about attachment styles. So started doing some research, started listening to some audio books and whatnot, and the relationships around me, just like asking myself, you know, how much does this really affect how we love, how we communicate, and whether things last. And I'll be honest. I feel like I've heard a lot of surface level information about attachment styles on social media, on podcasts, and conversations. I think sometimes people just take terms and they use them really lightly when

people are like, oh, I'm a little bit OCD. It's like, no, you either are or you're not. And I felt like with the attachment styles, there wasn't a lot that actually explains what's going on underneath or how this shows up in real life. And I thought, okay, so if I'm confused, there must be so many other people who are also confused. And I thought that after that conversation I had with my friend, let's look deeper into this. Let's make it a podcast. And that's why I wanted to have today's guest on because she doesn't just talk about attachment styles as labels or trends. She actually teaches people how to understand them and how to work with them. So today I'm joined by Taise Gibson, who is one of the leading experts on attachment theory

and subconscious reprogramming. Taise is the founder of the Personal Development School, which has helped millions of people understand their attachment styles and truly transform. their relationships. She has degrees in behavioral sciences, psychology, and has spent over a decade researching attachment theory and is known for breaking down really complex emotional patterns in a way that actually makes sense. She's also the author of Learning Love, which is a bestselling book that dives into the attachment styles, emotional wounds, and how we can build healthier relationships. Not just romantic ones, but with ourselves and others too. You know, this can be in

families, this is be with your friends. And I just wanted Tice to be here because I don't want to surface level conversation. I want to really understand this for myself, for my relationships, and for all of you listening. So welcome to the podcast. How we doing? I'm so happy to be here with you and grateful for such a beautiful introduction. Thank you. I'm sometimes long-winded. I love it. It was so thorough and like so thought out and I loved it. Good. Awesome. So before we dive into my own attachment style. Can you explain what attachment theory actually is? Yes. So your attachment style is sort of your subconscious set of rules that you've been conditioned with in regards to how to give and receive love and what to expect in relationships. And I think a couple things are really important to sort of set the tone is that

every single person has an attachment style. You can't really escape it. Right. And when you play, if you imagine it's an analogy, if you sit down to play a board game with somebody and let's say you have the rules for monopoly and I have the rules for Scrabble and we're going to play a board game, even if you want to have the best time with somebody, you're going to have all of this confusion and unnecessary friction because you literally have different rules for how the board game is supposed to go. That's an interesting way to put it. And so if you can imagine that all of your conditioning is subconscious, so your subconscious mind is responsible for 95% of all of your beliefs, your thoughts, your emotions, your actions, and our logical thinking mind, our conscious mind is 3 to 5%. So we have all of this conditioning and all of these subconscious expectations and ideas about how to give and receive love, what our needs should be, how we should be, how we're

should communicate and all of those things are literally housed at a subconscious level and our attachment styles of what best represents that, what types of rules we have, what types of needs we have, how we try to communicate. And so when we don't understand this, it makes relationships so much more difficult than they actually need to be. Yeah. We'll get into this in a bit because I took the quiz, my husband took the quiz, my best friends took the quiz. But why do you think attachment styles matter so much in adult romantic relationships? Because what's so interesting is we literally replace our adult romantic relationships with our primary caregiver relationships, which is our parents. Oh, interesting. Yeah, you actually see it. It's so wild. So you actually see it to the point where

in childhood, your first like year and a half, you're kind of loved more unconditionally, right? You're not conditioned yet. You're not told yes and no, right or wrong. You're sort of love more unconditionally. And it's so funny because actually all the way into our adult lives, your first year, year and a half of your relationship is your honeymoon stage. Right. Where you kind of like the rose color classes. And so much of our mind is really replaying out these patterns subconsciously without realizing them. And your most vulnerable relationships as an adult are your romantic ones. And so what happens is the vulnerability, the level of closeness and care we felt from our childhood parents and childhood, those are the things that actually end up showcasing themselves the most in our adult

lives. And that's why our romantic relationships, although all relationships are definitely affected by far. But your attachment's all, your romantic relationships are affected the most by far. Interesting. Why do you think this topic gets talked about so much, but without that much depth? Yeah. So I think to be honest, I love that you said that in your intro too. I think to be honest, what happens is we love those like sort of throw around terms. Like, oh, I'm the anxious one. I'm the dismissive avoided. Okay. Oh, he's avoided. That's why he's not answering. And we love to kind of jump to those conclusions from like this pop culture space. But I actually think that one of the downsides to that is that if we, you know, so our body of work, we took original attachment theory and John Bolby's work. And we did all of this research and how do you actually change your attachment cell to become secure. And we built out these programs to do it in 90 days because it doesn't have to be that difficult, especially when you engage the subconscious mind and neuroplasticity in the process. Yeah.

But I think one of the things that happens out in the world and especially more on the internet is people just kind of identify with a label of an attachment style. They're like, oh, I'm this one. Yeah. And then you're like, oh, because I'm this one, you just assume you kind of excuse your own patterns and say, oh, I just am this way because of that. Or, oh, my ex is just that way. And that's why this happened. And sometimes we jump to these conclusions, and there's kind of a downside to that because then we don't do the work to heal to change the pattern to actually rewire these things. And you're not born with an attachment style gets conditioned into you through repetition and emotion, which is what fires and wires your neural pathways.

And you can rewire those things and it's not even that hard. But instead people get so busy being like, oh, I'm just this one and that's why I am this way. Instead of being like, well, if it's hurting me, if it's painful for me, if it's hurting my relationship, why don't I work to change it? Why don't I see what's going on beneath the surface and dig into that? I love that. Okay, so can you walk us through the different attachment styles? Yes. So there are four attachment styles.

As I said, every single person has one. The first one is the one we sort of want to move towards if we're not already. And that one's called the secure attachment style. The secure attachment style, the actual data on it is that it represents about 50% of the population. It seems to be on the decline. And what's really interesting as well is that securely attached people report having the longest lasting relationships, but also having the most fulfillment in their relationships. And when you look at the actual data on the divorce rate, the divorce rate moves in lockstep with the data on secure attachment. So when you look at, you know, as the secure attachment went on

the decline, the divorce rate went on the incline. And so you actually see them, they seem to be very interconnected in a lot of ways. And securely attached people get raised in childhood with a lot of what we call approach-oriented behaviors in psychology. And approach-oriented behavior sounds like such a small thing, but it's a huge deal. So what it means is that you have parents who are tuned to you. And when you are in a position where they see that you're distressed as a child and they come towards you and try to sue with you and try to see what's going on, it sounds like such a small thing, but it actually conditions a child to be like, okay, I can lean on people. I can trust that people will be there for me. It's safe to express my emotions and they're received.

I'm worthy of love on my good days and my bad days. Like if I'm not feeling good, I'm so loved. Yeah. And it teaches a child to feel this innate sense of self-confidence in who they are. And because they're modeled that, they're able to then give that with other people. And so you have this really beautiful set of themes at a subconscious level that they're operating from and securely attached people grow up to be good communicators. They want to work through problems and resolve them. They're comfortable being vulnerable. And so they have not just these longer lasting relationships, but they actually have more fulfillment because they're bringing these really healthy patterns to relationships themselves. Gotcha. Interesting. Okay. So that's our secure one. Yep. And that's about 50%. But on the decline a little bit. Then we have the other three and they're all insecure attachment styles. So you can kind of imagine in a way on a continuum, at one end of the continuum, you have your anxious attachment style. Anxious attachment styles get a lot of love growing up, but they suffer from either real or perceived abandonment. And what's really interesting about trauma and like the neuroscience of it is that if you have one big T trauma, like let's say, God forbid, somebody loses a parent when they're a child, right?

That big T trauma can imprint the subconscious mind in a really deep way where then this person fears abandonment a lot as an adult. But repeated small T trauma over time actually has a impact as a singular big T trauma. So when we say perceived abandonment, perceived abandonment for a lot of anxious attachment styles are like having very loving parents, but they work all the time. And you're constantly being left with grandparents and love is there and love is taken away. And love is there and love is taken away? And over time, this child becomes fearful that like, wait, is love going to be taken away? And so as an adult, because of these conditions, their biggest core wounds or triggers in relationships. And this goes into integrated attachment through a little bit

deeper into attachment styles. Their biggest core wounds or fears, which are really their triggers, are the fear of abandonment, the fear of being alone, the fear of being excluded, disliked, rejected, not good enough, or unloved. And these are these big things that drive their behavior all the time. And what you see is as adults, these individuals become really people-pleasing because they're so scared of like not being good enough in somebody's eyes or losing connection. And so they sort of, a lot of their personality actually gets shaped and warped around, I have to maintain connection and I have to maintain proximity. And so they're always trying to attach people closer.

They move quite quickly in relationships. Even friendships, they're like, let's be friends right away. I had so many clients over the years who would say things like, they would be like, wait, I met a girl after yoga class, and I wanted to go out for lunch right away. And she didn't want to. And it was, okay, because now that I know what my attachment style is, but I'm like, I think that it has changed. A lot of what you're saying right now, I also relate to.

Okay, interesting. Okay, so that's your anxious attachment cells. And honestly, anxious attachment cells, they have superpowers, right? Like, their superpowers are that they're so warm and likable and friendly and they're very generous and they're so people pleasing. But they also just run the risk of burnout because they run themselves into the ground for everybody around them and they're always last on their own totem pole. And so it's because these deep sort of fears are driving them. And what's really interesting, too, that our body of attachment theory covers is that each attachment cell has unique needs. And, you know, you've probably heard of the five love languages. Yes. Needs are so much deeper than love languages. Like if we are loved in the way that we actually need, it's so much more impactful. I'll give a quick example. So I as an example of my love language is quality time. But my biggest need is emotional connection.

And I can spend like five hours quality time watching Netflix with somebody or something. And like, or I can have one hour of like a beautiful conversation with somebody. I'm going to pick the one hour all the time because it's emotional connection. Totally. So our needs run so much more deeply. And the needs of each attachment is on. matter. So the needs of the anxious attachment style are they want to feel validated, reassured. They want to feel like they're a priority that they matter to people around them. They want to feel

like there's certainty. This is one of the most underrated things. They really need certainty. If somebody cancels plans on an anxious attachment style, if you're like, have to cancel plans, but I'll see you on Monday and we'll do this. And they get some reassurance and certainty, they're okay. But if somebody just cancel plans and like doesn't say why or doesn't say when they're seeing them next, they kind of panic and they spiral a little bit. And they get very, they ruminates. about uncertainty. If there's uncertainty or they don't know something, they're like, they try to fill in the blanks by ruminating all the potential possibilities. And they can do that in romantic relationships, of course, but they do that sometimes with friendships too. Totally. And it can cause them

to kind of spiral a little bit. And then they end up coping with that by being like, let me people please more so that I can then win the approval. And within that, you know, there's, again, like, they're superpowers that they're so likable. And they've generally worked on their personalities a lot because they're trying to win people over. And so they have all these great traits. But then just in the background, they self-silence, they put themselves last and they can always burn themselves out. Yeah.

I feel like that is my mom. I did send her the quiz this morning and I'm like, mom, I need you to take this because a lot of what you just said, I feel like the people pleasing. She puts everyone before herself always. And I've been guilty of that a lot in my life as well. We'll get into this more. But when I took the quiz this week, I was like, oh, I'm a secure attachment style.

And I feel like I did this quiz maybe a decade ago. Yeah. And I was anxious. Like I swear, I just always thought I had an anxious attachment style. So I was really pleased to find out that it was secure. Yeah. But if you've been doing the work, if you've been learning, yeah. Then you change, like over time.

And that's a really important thing is like your attachment cell is not fixed. It's not like a diagnosis. It's a subconscious set of ideas and patterns that you've learned to use to relate to people. And so if you start doing the work and plugging in, becoming self-aware. And if you especially, like I don't know what work you've done, But if you've learned to meet your own needs, if you've learned to like set boundaries better, show up for yourself, those are all really big ways into healing. Okay, so there you go.

So that's probably exactly what happened. So you probably were anxious to the work, became secure. Cool. Yeah. Wait, I love this. So you guys, you can change your attachment styles too. Okay. So we've done secure, anxious.

And then there's dismissive and fearful. Exactly. Yeah. So you can imagine if anxious is on this end of the continuum, on the far opposite side is the dismissive avoidant. And they're kind of the opposite in many ways. dismissive avoidant attachment cells grow up with their overarching theme being childhood emotional neglect. And I think people hear this and they assume right away that it's like parents are never home and three-year-olds trying to find food in the house.

Like they assume these really hard things. And it of course can be that. But that's a vast minority of cases. The majority of times it's actually that dismissive avoidance grew up in household where parents are very structured and stable. There's not a lot of conflict in the home. Kids are at school on time. Food is that, you know, on the table on time. And there's a lot of structure. instability, but there is a total lack of attunement. And so this child grows up in a household where because children are literally biologically wired for attunement, and if that's not there, if they don't feel like their parents are noticing when they're feeling stressed or there for them or checking in with their feelings, a child who's wired for that and is constantly yearning for that kind of connection, they end up just feeling like, what's wrong with me that I can't connect

or bond this way? And children in their stages of behavioral development, they take things deeply personally. And so they end up being like, oh, it must be me. I must be the problem. My emotions are wrong. My something deep down about me is defective or wrong. And they carry these really deep inner shame wounds because of that. But as adults, they cope with this by being like, okay, I'm just not going to connect emotionally. I'm just going to minimize my attachment needs with everybody and not be vulnerable. And that's how I'm going to feel okay. And so they learn to adapt in their childhood that way. And then as adults, dismissive avoidance are the ones who they, you know, as soon as things get real in a relationship. They cut and run. Or they stay in a relationship, but they're the ones who, if there's a

conflict, they're like, let's go in the other room and shut the door. And they kind of avoid conflict. They don't talk things through. They shut down. They stonewall a lot. They're the types of people who can be very spotty responding to text messages. They take a long time to try to warm up and commit to anything. They're always kind of like pumping the brakes on big commitments in their life. And it's because deep down, they feel like that level of emotional, vulnerable commitment and closeness wasn't something that they had positively associated in their childhood. They weren't like, oh, that felt good. That was safe. That was comfortable. And so they're constantly rejecting their own emotions. And they struggle to bond emotionally. You'll hear them talk a lot more in like their thoughts rather than their feelings.

And they tend to always try to minimize their attachment needs to feel in control and to feel safe. And a lot of their biggest wounds, their biggest actual like core wounds and relationships or triggers are the fear of being shamed. So if they get criticized, they just shut right down. They're very stoic so you won't be able to tell, but they'll pull away big time. They tend to very much fear being trapped in the wrong commitment or the wrong situation. They are scared that they can't change. They kind of are like, why bother trying so hard? They constantly try to just shut down to create that distance and tell themselves, well, like, I don't need to try so hard. And I feel relief when I don't bother trying, which is kind of defeatist a little bit. And they also are in a place where they go

through so many of their relationships, feeling like they're just not good at relationships. They're just not good enough as people. And they often feel really misunderstanding. understood because they don't understand their own emotions and they're not expressing their needs to people. Yeah. And a lot of people are like, oh, I know what dismissive avoidance need. They need freedom. They need space. They need autonomy. And they do. But they also actually, like, their needs as being much more impactful than love languages, the things that make them feel really loved and connected that actually help them become secure when they're met. Are they really need small, sincere forms of appreciation? So they don't want to have like, oh, you're the best partner ever. I love you so much.

They want to hear things like, hey, I notice you're trying to be more consistent and I really appreciate it. Like, they want to hear that when they do try things, that it's noticed, that it's considered, that it's seen. They really care so much about feeling accepted. When they feel judged or criticized, they shut down. If they feel like somebody's accepting, like, hey, hey, can we work on consistency? I know you're trying really hard. I really appreciate you. But, like, let's work on this. If somebody's communicating their needs from a place of acceptance, kindness, non-judgment, they tend to be more open. As soon as they feel like somebody in their life is judgmental or critical, they're like, no, thank you. Like, they will cut friendships. They will run away.

And they tend to be the types of people, even in their longstanding friendships that they very much value security, stability, harmony. They tend to want things to be really easy in their relationships. They're the types of people who have like longstanding friends. And then they'll see them once a year and then not talk to them all year. And then they'll be like that for decades. You know, they're very like that in their relationships. And they're the types of people who really struggle with conflict. They don't like to do conflict.

They don't know how to handle conflict. They kind of emotionally freeze. And a lot of their coping is to shut down and ice out. Interesting. Okay. And then we've got the fearful avoidant. Yes. So fearful avoidant is one of the most interesting ones. They're sometimes the most confusing one. They're kind of the trickiest one to be or be on the receiving end of. And the fearful avoidant in a way is almost a hybrid of the anxious and dismissive. They're sort of in the middle of the continuum because they have an anxious side, but they also have a dismissive side. Now, their overarching theme in their childhood is basically trauma or chaos. And so just like the anxious attachment style, their strategy, is to minimize or to maintain proximity and maximize their attachment needs. Dismissive avoidance is to minimize their attachment needs and not need anybody. The fearful avoidance is like, I need to predict what everybody's going to do around me. And so they are extremely hypervigilant.

They notice everything, micro expressions, body language, tone of voice, they kind of jump to conclusions a lot. And a lot of the types of circumstances that would create a fearful avoidant are things like, unfortunately, a parent in active addiction, a parent who's an alcoholic, a parent who was narcissistic personality disorder. a parent who is abusive in the home, parents who fight like cats and dogs and the kids are always in the middle of it. Like those would be the types of scenarios that cause somebody to be fearful avoidant. And basically what happens is if you use the analogy that let's say like mom's an alcoholic, you have one day where maybe mom's had a few drinks and she's in a good mood and she's actually loving.

And the child is like, oh, love is good. I want love. I want closeness. This feels nice. And then you have another day where moms had many drinks and she's cruel and she's angry. and you're like love is terrifying, love is hurtful. Like, I can't trust love at all. And you never know what version of somebody you're going to get.

And so it causes this person to constantly be on high alert. And so in their adult life, from their childhood, they generally have a lot of the core wounds. If you're abandonment, if you're being unsafe, if you ask a fearful avoidant, do you think you're unsafe? They're going to tell you, no, I can handle myself. But if you pay close attention, their nervous system is always in fight, flight, freeze, or fawn.

And so they're coming from this operating space upon safety. They've just really adapted to it and they're almost accustomed to it. And so they spend a lot of time on high alert. They're very hot and cold because they're push and pull. They have the anxious side and the dismissive side. So they're like, come get close, come get close. And you get closer. Like, get back.

This is too much. And people are left being like, wait, which is it? Like, what version is it? And they pinballed. They're kind of the roller coaster partner in relationships, big highs, high highs, low lows. And they struggle so much with like internalized guilt and shame. So they'll go through experiences where they do something because they're scared or they push somebody away. And then they're like, wait, I love that person and they feel very deeply. Yes. And so they're so loving and they like reel you back in and you're, you feel so loved. And they're really good at making people feel seen and heard and understood and supported. They're like the best people in a crisis because they're used to crises. They're good at like adapting to things and thinking on their feet and they're quick moving. And they're really good under pressure. It's like their comfort zone. They make good like entrepreneurs a lot of the time because they're good at rolling. with the punches. Okay. Yep. And so this is like a lot of their profile, but they have a lot of wounds. So they fear

abandonment. They fear they fear very much being unloved. They have a deep like unloved. A huge unworthiness wound, which makes them overcompensate a lot, but also makes them get in their own head and spiral a lot because they constantly, even if they are like in a relationship with somebody and that person they know deeply loves them and deeply like appreciates them and values them, they'll still be like, oh, I'm just not worthy like of this love. I'm just not worthy of this kind of connection and they always like tell these sort of stories in their mind of why it wouldn't work, why they're going to get hurt long term. And it caused them to push people away a lot. And then on the flip side, they have huge fears of also being trapped, helpless, powerless. And one of their

biggest fears is betrayal. And what's so interesting is they tend to jump to conclusions. And then sometimes they end up pushing people away or betraying them because of their own fears of betrayal. And I said this to you before. I was a fearful avoidant. And you know, it's so interesting because before I did a lot of this work and got into a lot of this falling in love, like when I fell in love as a kid, right? You know, I did a lot of this work pretty young. But I, every time I actually developed real feelings, it was always the most bittersweet process. It was like this sweetness of like love and oh my gosh, it feels so good to fall in love and to care so deeply. But at the same time, it's almost like the more you loved, the more threatened you would feel because you just assume that in the future

things are going to go back because it's what you know. And so there's this sort of like, okay, there's this deep kind of subconscious need to sabotage and push away. That's what I was just going to ask. You self-sabotage has a fearful avoidance. It's so much because you feel like the very thing you love is going to hurt you eventually. So the more you love it, the more it's going to hurt you. So you're almost like, let me sabotage first before it hurts me anyways. And it's sort of this need to regain control. And so it's very confusing.

And you spend a lot of time being hot and cold and back and forth. And you like care so much, but then you're so scared. And you also are not going to being vulnerable. So you're not the one to be like, oh, I'm scared. Let me. Let's talk it out. You're like, you're scaring me and I need to pull away and push you away. And it's very subconscious.

But it's really hard to be a fearful. It's kind of hard to be with a fearful avoidant as well. But there's so many benefits too. They're so loving. Every attachment's all has their superpowers. Like they're very loving. They're very caring. They're very generous with like their time, their effort.

They really pour into people. But then the juxtaposition is tough because they're so like that and then they can be so not like that. And it's tricky. Yeah. So when my husband took the quiz, he was fearful avoidant. And so much of what you just said, I'm like, I'm going to make him listen to this podcast.

He never listens to it, so I usually can get away with whatever I say, because he has no idea. I'm like, honey, you're going to listen to this. We were listening to your audio book last night when we were in the sauna. And at first, he's like, that's not me. And then he was like, oh, okay, I do relate to that. And yeah, maybe there is some of that. Okay, so I have a question for you. Do you do couple therapy?

So I do everything online now, but I generally don't see clients, but I would. I forget. No, so, okay, I'm so. Okay, so many questions about this because now that I know what my current attachment style is, as well as my husbands, it does not in any way, shape, or form surprise me that we are different because we are different in every way of life, how we raise kids, how we were raised as kids, and we just are so different. But a lot of what you just said, I'm like, oh my gosh, that makes so much sense.

So how does a relationship with a secure and a fearful? avoidant person work. And what should each person do to help make it work? Yeah. So on the flip side, like the securely attached person is going to be showing up really well. I mean, to be honest, like securely attached people are very patient with their partners. They're very understanding. They're very empathetic. You've probably learned how to hold space quite well for situations and even almost be present when somebody you can tell is in their head or when they're being hot and cold. Like, okay, they're a little cold. They'll give them some space. Okay, they're a little hot. I'll come in and meet them where they're at. And so securely touch people are very good at like reading cues,

trying to communicate through things. They generally very much want to solve conflict. They don't like to sleep things under the rug. They can tell when somebody's not being vulnerable and not communicating. Sometimes it's frustrating when you know that somebody's like holding something or they're in their heads and they're just creating a wall and you kind of want to be like, hey, let's break it down, let's work through it. But they're very patient, very understanding, very consistent, very reliable. So all of those things. I'll be really honest, a fearful avoidant. they need to show up and do a little bit of the work. I think that, you know, being with a secure person can help. Sometimes you'll hear some traditional attachment theory stuff and it's like they didn't go into the neuroscience of how to change your attachment style. So they'll be like, a fearful of wouldn't you just date a secure person? An anxious person should just date a secure person. Everything, the answer is to date a secure person. But I'll be really truthful. I've been doing this work for almost a decade and a half. And it doesn't solve the problems. It's helpful. But the person who is the really insecure attachment style, they have to show up and do some of the work themselves. And so, you know, there's things that can work in the relationship. We'll start there. If you're secure and you're dating a fearful avoidant, you want to meet their needs. So they're big needs in relationships. They need a sense of I have my freedom. I have my autonomy. I have my independence. I can do my own thing on my own terms when I need to. But they also need, kind of in contradiction. They also need depth of connection. They need to feel really seen and understood. They've very, yeah. And they need novelty. Novelty is a really big thing for them. They don't do well in their routine. They need to like try new things, try new

I can't. Like my husband is listening to this episode. And it runs across the attachments. I was like, you'll see it. And so they're very much like that. They won't tell you they need this and they don't think they need this. But they cannot survive in relationships where they don't have a sense of stability and trust. Because they just tell them even more. So the nice thing about being with a secure person is that you give the green lights, or the green flags, the signals that you're there, that you're not. kind of betray them. So it does help them, like, become less intense of a fearful avoidant than if they were dating, for example, a dismissive avoidant or another fearful avoidant or even an anxious person. So that goes a long way, but those needs in a relationship are huge. They very much have to work through, and this is a big part of them healing. They have to work through their own wounds of unworthiness. We're not born with wounds. I'm happy to get into like an exercise in a little bit that's a really easy exercise that people can stick to that can actually help rewire these triggers.

That's what I was going to ask. How do you do that? Is it through therapy or like what ways? So through neuroscience is the fastest way. So like therapy is amazing and therapy is so great from like a talk therapy perspective. But I also, as somebody who's done a lot of background in hypnotherapy and neuroscience and how the brain works, you can't talk it, talk it away. You can't talk through it and just hope that it goes away. You actually have to rewire. So I always give the analogy to go into the sort of exercise. I always give the analogy that your triggers are like your own version of a bear in the woods. So if you imagine that tomorrow you go into the woods and you see a bear and the bear chases you when you run away and thank goodness you're safe. But the very next day you have to go back into the woods. what do you do? Well, every time the trees blow, you're like, the bear is coming, right? You're bracing. And so that's good if you're being chased by a bear because it's protecting you. But we're wired that way biologically. And so what happens is all of our own version of the bear in the woods is I was portrayed as a child if I was hurt or if I was abused or if I had a parent who was an active addiction. So there's this constant like, okay, we've stored the threatening experience. And then what happens is their subconscious mind is wired to project that threat back out onto

the external world over and over again. So we keep bracing for the bear in the woods, but for each attachment, that's the fear of abandonment, the fear of betrayal. So if we're talking about fearful avoidance, their biggest wounds are like unworthiness, unsafe, abandoned, betrayed are their biggest ones, and trapped. And so they constantly project that back out onto the world. And even I am bad, they have this big bad, like, assuming that people think they're bad and having to kind of over-explain themselves or justify or be defensive. And so we have to rewire that. So there's three steps for how to do this. And this is something people can literally do at home. It's not even hard. And I'm telling you, as somebody who's done this work myself, and as somebody who's worked

with like tens of thousands of people on this, if people stick to it, we get people to rate after they do this exercise, how much their wounds went away. And people rated a 99.7% NPS score if they stuck to it. Okay. It takes 21 days. Honey, listen up. So there's three steps. So the first one is you find the wound in its opposite. So you think of the wound as being the things that trigger you the most. Okay. So let's just say, to keep it really simple, the example is, I'm not good enough. Okay. So what's its opposite? I am good enough. I don't believe in affirmations because interesting. Yeah, because affirmations, the actual neuroscience of it is that affirmations just speak to your conscious mind. Nobody is carrying their triggers and wounds at a conscious mind level. Your

conscious mind is like your logical analytical mind. Nobody's waking up every day and being like, I'm going to tell myself all day long I'm not good enough and see how I feel like no one's choosing that. So what's happened is you've had your bear in the woods. You've had, you've been betrayed before, you've been abandoned before, you've stored it. Your subconscious is a warehouse that stores everything. And then we reproject it. So we have to speak to the subconscious mind. The conscious mind speaks language.

The subconscious mind speaks in emotions and images. That's why affirmations don't work. Now, what if you're listening to affirmations while you sleep? Does that reprogram the subconscious mind? Because I do that every night. I have this app called Activations. Yeah. And the nightly ones that I play all night long,

it says that it's supposed to help the subconscious mind. A little bit, but not much. So I'll tell you why. So if I were to say to you, for example, whatever you do, Sheena, do not think of a pink elephant. There's a pink elephant in my head, of course. So your conscious mind, her do not. But yeah. So your conscious mind hears do not.

It hears the language. But your subconscious just flash the image. Right. So our subconscious doesn't really hear language. So if you do a ton of affirmations for so long, repetition across enormous periods of time, really consistently can help a little bit. I do it every day. Yeah.

Like it was a full super moon. I was doing my moon manifestations and all the things. That's really good. But there's a way easier way that's way faster. Okay. So first one is find the core wound in its opposite. I am not good enough. I am good enough.

So now we have the language. Okay. But now we want to find I'm not good enough. We want to speak to our subconscious mind because that's the host of where the problem is. So your subconscious speaks in emotions and images, as I keep saying. And so what's really interesting is that every memory we ever have is just a container of emotions and images. If I were to say, okay, what was your favorite childhood memory?

And you were like, oh, I was playing at the beach with my parents. You'd see the images of the ocean and the sand. And maybe your red bucket and making a sand castle. And we've all seen people when they recall old memories, they laugh or they smile or they cry, you know, if it's a sad one. So what we're going to do is we're going to say, okay, I need to come up with 10 memories. We need repetition because it fires and wires. 10 memories of times actually did feel good enough. Okay.

So to oppose the wound. So if I'm abandoned, 10 people in my life I know actually are there for me or 10 times I felt like I was worthy of connection or connection showed up. So we're always trying to speak into the opposite with memory. And then what we do is we record it down. So let's say you've 10 times you felt good enough. You're like, I was a great friend last week. I showed up and had a hard conversation two weeks ago.

I worked through that hard thing with my partner. I was a good parent. And you come up with these very specific things because now they're speaking to your subconscious. Once you have 10, you record them down, like into your phone, saying them out loud. And then we listen back for 21 days. but when we listen, we really focus on seeing the images and feeling the emotion. And now what we're doing is we're using our conscious mind to speak to our subconscious in a way that fires and wires.

And that's how we actually rewire or reprogram these old core triggers. Yeah. That's so interesting. And also just to give a little bit of context, it's everyone in the world knows now because I wrote a book about it, well, about my life. But my husband, when I was pregnant, had an affair. And now knowing about a task. attachment styles more and that he's a fearful avoidant. I have like sympathy for him doing this because

I felt so bad that he felt like he wasn't good enough. And so he's self-sabotaged. And he acted out and he had this affair. Did not tell me about it. Swore he would never do it again. And has been incredible ever since. But then came clean a couple years later, told me about this. And now I'm like, everything that you're saying, I'm like, I feel like this is why he did that because he felt like he wasn't good enough. So that's like one of the biggest wounds. It's really this. And honestly, it's funny because not good enough can be like an anxious core wound. It's unworthiness for a fearful avoidance. Yeah. It's honestly a little bit deeper than not good enough. It's like at my core, I'm fundamentally unworthy. Not good enough is usually like an action. But fearful avoidance,

they, and fearful of widens actually statistically tend to have infidelity in their relationships the most when they feel the most in love with somebody. They actually tend to cheat less in relationships when they don't feel as emotionally attached. And so I don't, you know, you mentioned like that he also had this thing with past kids. If he had past wounds and he feels unworthy of being a dad, that will make them spiral even more. That's what it was. Anything that's deeply unresolved wounding, the moment that there's a catalyst for it, they spin out. They just more than anybody else.

And it's because they really have this hot and cold side to them. So they'll have these moments of like, I'm so. like I'm not worthy, I'm not deserving, and they'll panic. And then what's so interesting is that your subconscious mind, even though it has all these bears in the woods, all the core triggers and wounds, your subconscious mind also wants to maintain its comfort zone because it sees familiarity as safety and thus survival. So what we believe about ourselves, we also tend to create. So in other words, if somebody believes they're unworthy and not deserving, they'll sabotage it. Because their subconscious mind says, okay, no, no, no, I'm not worthy, I'm not deserving.

It's out of my comfort zone. I have to sabotage as a way to stay. safe in my own familiarity and my own zone of what I know. Yeah. And so as a result, you'll really see fearful when they tend to do it actually around a few things. Infidelity will happen to them. And by the way, like, they're not always like that, right? So if that happened in the past, it doesn't mean it's going to recur or anything like that. Well, it better not. But it tends to happen around the biggest life commitments. Yeah. The things they feel the most unworthy of, the times they feel the most vulnerable or in love, because those are also the most threatening simultaneously for them, or the things that they feel the most undeserving of as a whole. Wow. Yeah. That is so interesting. Yeah. With your

background in psychology and everything, do you see any correlation with OCD or ADHD and attachment styles? Great question. Yes. You're less likely to see it in securely attached. People, you can see it in people who weren't securely attached and then did the work. But you're actually more likely to see both ADHD, the data says, ADHD and OCD in the anxious attachment cell first, than the fearful. avoidance second and then dismissible avoidance a trailing third and secure trailing forth. So they do go hand in hand. And part of it, if you break it down, okay, so a lot of some of the cutting edge research says ADHD is very much connected to trauma in different ways, especially at very, very young age.

So generally in the first three years of life, but the second time that we're most open to conditioning is three to eight years old because our brain's producing more alpha and theta brain waves. So we're like sponges. We soak everything up. So ADHD has correlates there. But OCD, what's really interesting, and this will be a big rabbit hole. So I'll try to say like not too, you know, not too long in my answer.

But when you break down OCD and the actual kind of neuroscience of it again, well, what is it? It's obsessive compulsive disorder. So obsessive represents our obsessive thoughts, right? Well, why do we have obsessive thoughts? Because we have core wounds. So I always tell people that I give this acronym called BTEA. So let's pretend that like my core wound is I am not good enough. Well, then what happens?

say I go to a networking event with a bunch of people, I'll start to think thoughts like, I'm not interesting enough, I'm not smart enough, I'm not attractive enough, I'm not all the types of enough that could be inserted there. And I think of our belief, I'm not good enough, which usually happens because we got imprinted that way. Maybe our parents made us feel that way or we didn't experience. It made us feel that way. It gets stored in the subconscious mind. And then that's our tree trunk. And all these tree branches spring off of it. I'm not this enough. I'm not that enough. Then after we have beliefs and thoughts, the acronym is BTEA, our beliefs create thoughts, our thoughts create emotions, okay? So how do we feel when we're thinking those

things? We feel sad. Our emotions are made up of neurochemical reactions. So then I have a cortisol and norapherin. And the neuroscience has actually proven that every action we take, and this really matters in OCD and I'll bring it full circle in a second. Every action we take is based on our emotional state. So even people who are like, oh, I'm a logical, rational thinker. Everyone's making emotionally based decisions at the tipping point and then rationalizing through logic. So how this relates to OCD is that when we have core beliefs, so we've been imprinted by painful experiences in childhood, I'll be abandoned, I'm not good enough, I'll be unloved. Those beliefs cause all of these thoughts to exist all the time where we have these ruminations about these different thoughts. And then what's, so we have

obsessive thoughts because of these core beliefs, these wounds. And then we know that that then creates emotions. And then we act. And when you look at obsessive-compulsive, what is the compulsive part? It's a compulsive action to try to soothe the obsessive thinking. So if somebody has like safety-based OCD, well, then they check the stove over and over again. And so those are actually ways to attempt to soothe these ruminating thoughts that then a lot of times, unfortunately, and not that this is wrong, but a lot of times it's like, okay, well, just take a drug or things like that. And that's not wrong. That definitely like is very helpful for people in periods of time. But we also have to work on the core of it, which is like, well, if you actually rewire the core wounds that are creating all those thought patterns, then you won't have all those obsoles.

of thoughts that then create these compulsive reactions to try to soothe with or cope with those thoughts. And so when we find the wounds that they're linked to and rewire them at the root, everything changes for people with OCD. So they're very much connected in the fact that both insecure attachment styles and people with OCD are more likely to have specific core wounds that tend to cause tailspins, whether it's in relationships or different areas of life. Okay. Interesting. Because I have OCD. I didn't know. I wasn't properly diagnosed until about a year postpartum. And my therapist was like, I think you have postpartum OCD.

Obviously, I can't diagnose. You need to go to a psychiatrist and whatnot. And so I've done a lot of work with that. And I've done a lot of EMDR. Oh, that's really good. Rewiring my brain. And that should actually work. Yeah, yeah.

Wow, I go in feeling one way and I leave and I'm like, I can't believe I was upset about that this morning. Yeah. It actually, when you reprogram it, it's crazy. Exactly. And so that rewiring is that I love to hear that. That's so cool that you're doing like the root cause work. because again, some people will go on medication, be on medication for life.

But I do that too, but I didn't until about a year ago. But you're doing both. Yes. And it was in a depressive time of my life. So it was like I'm on Zoloft. We were trying to figure out the right milligrams because I'm like, I do need something for the OCD, but also I was just really depressed at the time. And now, I mean, I feel so much better and happier.

But I'm like, let's just, we'll all stay on this for now. But I don't want to be on it for life. Maybe we can cut back and whatnot. But definitely is helped. when I needed it the most. 100%. And so like what and and so where I was going with that is some people will be on medication for life. And unfortunately what happens, they keep upping their dose and upping their dose because they're not dealing with root cause. But when you're dealing with root cause at the same time, and EMDR is a really great thing. I find that EMDR is very fit. You have to get a

really good EMDR therapist because you're amazing. Yeah. I'm so lucky. Yeah. It does so well. And some people have almost like a negative experience from EMDR if they get the wrong person. So I always say to people who are thinking that the person do your due diligence and research first to make sure they're a good fit, but when you get a really good person, they're rewiring your brain at the same time. You're dealing with the root cause and taking the medication. And now you're approaching it from both sides properly, which is really good. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. This is so interesting. Like, I have a million questions and I feel like I've only asked you three. So, okay, let's just stick with the secure attachment. There's this idea online that secure attachment is like the good one and

everything else is a red flag. Do you think that's actually true? And how do you talk about insecure attachment styles without making people feel broken. Yeah. So I always say to people, it's such a great question and a really thoughtful question. It's not your fault. Okay. You did not raise your hand and say, I want this conditioning. I want this programming. Yeah. You're not like, okay, parents, like, give me this one. Yeah. So it's not your fault at all. It's none of your doing, none of your anything. All that happened is you went through hard things and your subconscious mind and nervous system are doing the best they can to adapt and keep you safe. And so it's not your fault. And it is your responsibility. Yeah. So there's a part of it, you know, in fairness, in reality, securely attached people, I mean, to be perfectly honest, they have an easier time in life because they're not in these constant triggers in their mind. Their nervous system is more regulated on a regular basis as a result. It doesn't mean that secure people don't go through hard things and challenges because they do. For sure. But I always say to people, it's worthwhile doing the work. I wouldn't say that like every other attachment cell is this huge red flag is and don't date them. But what I've actually found over the years is that usually people, every attachment cell has super power.

So dismissive avoidance are the ones that are super logical, rational. They're also good under pressure. They're usually like the kind of scientific minds of our culture. They're very thoughtful. They're very thorough. And they tend to be very stable and steady. Anxious attachment cells are so charming and likable and friendly. They're so good with people.

They're extremely thoughtful. They're very charismatic. You know, so everybody has their superpowers. Fearful avoidance are extremely generous and deep and they're not surface people and they're hardworking and they're resilient. And they're so good at persevering. They're amazing under pressure. So everybody has these superpowers. But in fairness, because of the insecurities that come with it, it's like you have superpowers,

but then you have challenges, right? So you kind of move back and forth between the two. And that's why I always say to people, like, if you're dating somebody and you meet them and you learn they're insecurely attached, I would not be like, oh, run away. You know, I would not. I have no. Actually, when I met my husband 11 years ago, I was still a little fearful avoidant. I've been doing the work in a lot of areas, but I was still a little fearful avoidant. And he was actually a little dismissive avoidant.

And we learned to work through our stuff together and it brought us so much closer. And we both showed up and did the work in the relationship. And like, thank goodness, like we've thrived for the past like over a decade. So I'm so blessed. But that's what you have to be looking for is are both people willing to do the work? Because there will be challenges. And I think the hardest thing about relationships that really wears people out and where most people break up in the power struggle stage is when you're going through the same things over and over again. And it feels like, okay, you can do it for a couple of years when you really love somebody.

But then a couple decades, like it just breeds so much resentment. And so I always say to people, it doesn't really matter that much if people are insecurely attached when I was working in private practice. I did not care at all. What insecure attachment sell somebody was, how much trauma they had. The number one thing I looked for, the first day that I met them is, are you willing to do the work? Because if you were, we're going to become securely attached and you're going to thrive and your relationships are going to hurt so dramatically. But that has to be what you're looking for. So if you see somebody and you're dating them and they're like insecurely attached, the thing you should be looking for is,

don't hear them say I would like to do the work. Are they doing it? Are they in counseling? Are they in therapy? Are they taking courses? Are they reading books? Are they in some sort of program? If they are, then that's a big green flag. And then they'll end up retaining the superpowers. Usually what happens is we keep our superpowers of our attachment style and our personality doesn't change. Just all the triggering does. All the tail spins do. And we become more stable as a result. So it can be a really beautiful thing, but you need to be seeing like, is this person showing up? I feel like there's also got to be a connection with parenting styles to your attachment styles because it is subconsciously how you were raised and as a kid. And it's like with my husband, I mean, we were raised polar opposites where I was

an only child for 12 years just outside of Los Angeles. He was the youngest of five on a farm in New Zealand. And then when he was four, he had an accident where a gate crushed his hand and he lost a finger and a half at four years old, which is the age of our daughter right now. And I'm like, On top of any other childhood trauma, like he had actual physical trauma that then he got bullied. And he went to 15 different schools in like 13 years. And it was just like that's so much that I feel like that obviously affects how he parents. And also just down under, they make them different. I swear.

He has this. He calls it FAAFO, fuck around and find out method. Where he's just like, you know, she doesn't want to wear the jacket. Fuck around and find out. she'll be cold, you know? And I'm like, I see the point, but it's like, I'm so opposite. I'm like, honey, let me keep you warm. And I'm just like, I over-parent and he's just like, she'll be fine. She doesn't want to eat her dinner. Then, oh, well, she doesn't get a snack. She can go to bad hunger. And I'm like, no, I just, I want to feed her because it's like the I was always fed.

Like, my mom is like, oh, you don't like that, honey? Like, let me make you something else. And I'm a picky eater. And yes, mom, I do blame you for that. But I think there has to be an attachment and parenting style connection, right? One hundred percent. Yeah. So to be honest, when you said that, you kind of actually probably get a good little bit of a hybrid approach. The ultimate parenting styles of the authoritative approach, right? So not authoritarian, not controlling everything, not permissive, which is like, honey, you're sad. I'm going to give you candy right away. And the child doesn't learn how to self-soothe. Right. And sometimes the permissive parents are like, I don't like when you feel sad. So I'm going to give you candy so that I don't feel uncomfortable

when you feel sad, right? So there can be some of that. But then when you have this like middle of the road sort of hybrid approach, it's actually the best for kids. And it's interesting because it sounds like you slightly overparent, not necessarily permissive parenting, but you're like very hypervigilant towards your daughter maybe, are really deeply caring. And that's so good. But then sometimes you have to let her learn or make mistakes sometimes too. Last night. I'm like, I'm like, the sound of her crying, it's my least favorite sound in the world. Like it hurts my soul. But it was like, she wanted to play Legos. It was dinner time. She didn't want to eat dinner. She wanted to finish her Legos. And we're like, you're going to eat dinner. And I was like,

mom, ma. And I was just like, oh my God, I can't. And I didn't. And I didn't. given, which is so hard for me. But I'm trying to take a bit of him and just do what is best for her. And I'm like, you've got to figure this out on your own. You got to get over these emotions that you're feeling right now. Like, it's Legos. We'll build them later. We'll build them tomorrow. But you're going to eat dinner. She didn't want to eat dinner. And she's like, well, I want a snack. And he's like, you don't get a snack. And I'm like, trying to sneak a snack. He saw the snack behind me. Behind your back. Yeah. He's like, no, she doesn't get a snack. I know. You're right. But like, I feel that. But you know what? Like that's a really good example of you being able to say,

okay, I'm going to be authoritative. Like I'm not going to just give in and I'm going to hold back. And it's the way you can frame it in your mind if it helps is that that's you letting her learn to self-suit. Yes. Which is such an important skill as an adult and letting her to learn to like, okay, there's consequences to my own actions. And if I don't, you know. And so being too polarized that way, like kind of how he is, it might be a little more extreme. And it might be like, you know, it's hard that way. But not enough of that or none of that is, also really difficult as people get old or right. So having that nice middle ground. And it sounds like you're both trying to kind of take each other and meet in that middle ground together, which is really beautiful. Definitely. Do you think in relationships that everyone's goal should be

to work towards a secure attachment style? Yes. Okay. Point blank period. I mean, to be honest, I'm so biased because I do this work. But I've just seen like ultimately your attachment cells, the relationship you have to yourself. It's how you treat your boundaries. It's how you show up for your needs. It's how you communicate with other people. It's how you're nervous. system regulates, and it's all these triggers and wounds that you carry into things. Yeah. And when you're able to heal that within yourself, it changes your life profoundly. And then, of course, it affects all your relationships as a result. So I very much believe that should be the goal for everybody. So obviously working towards secure is the goal. But can you,

if you're already secure, can you backslide in your attachment styles? Like if you're secure, can a certain event or whatever lead you to be an insecure attachment style? Great question. Yes. So the reason is that we're always being conditioned. So you've probably heard like, these old personal development quotes like, you're the sum of the five people you spend the most time around all these things. Well, it's true because everybody's influencing your conditioning. So what ends up happening is if you, whatever you're exposed to through a lot of repetition and emotion, fires and wires your neural pathways. So if you, for example, are a securely attached child and then, God forbid, somebody's in a relationship with somebody who has narcissistic personality disorder as an early relationship as a teenager,

you could leave that relationship and you could become fearful avoidant afterwards. or if you are in a situation as an adult where you love somebody deeply. I mean, I've seen people, for example, and it's a hard thing to, you know, think about, but I've seen people, for example, who are quite secure, and then they're super close to both their parents, and they lose both of their parents in one year, and they're left with some abandonment wounds. They're left being a little bit more anxious leaning after that because there's still an abandonment that's still imprints our subconscious mind.

So, yeah, it can shift and change for us. Our attachment cell is definitely a set of patterns. It's pretty deeply ingrained, but conditioning is real, and it's happening all the time, so it can change on. Yeah, that's so interesting you say that because I feel like maybe my mom was a secure attachment style, but her and my dad both lost all four of their parents within 15 months. Oh my goodness. It was just back to back to back to back.

And I was 16, 17. My little sister was like my daughter's age. She was four. She was a toddler when she lost all her grandparents. But I feel like for my parents, that was, you know, a huge trauma that they both experienced at the same time that could have changed. 100%. Wow.

Yeah. This is so interesting. What do you think matters more having the same attachment style or understanding each others? Understanding each other so much. Because honestly, what's so interesting is sometimes people with the same attachment style, they're kind of like the same end of a magnet. They repel each other.

So what's really interesting is like you will very rarely see two anxious people in a relationship together. And here's the wild part of this. We are attracted to what's most familiar to. us. It's what we invest in the most at the end of the day. Now, of course, it can change once we have an established relationship, once we fall in love. Like, well, we love people for more than just their attachment. But in the early stages of dating, like the first, you know, six months or so that we're getting to know somebody, people tend to attract what's most familiar

to them, which is actually the way we treat ourselves. So for example, anxiously attach individuals, they kind of dismiss and avoid their own feelings and needs a lot because they're prioritizing everybody else. Yeah. So they're often attracted to more avoidant people who mirror that back to them. Wait, and you saying that, I'm like, oh my God, that's my ex. Like, I loki want to send him this quiz and be like, do you know your attachment style? That's why it didn't work out. Wait, was he more avoidance? Yes. So avoided. Yes. And there's this, it's funny because your conscious mind, your logical thinking mind is like, I want the emotionally available partner. But then our subconscious mind is like, ooh, the butterflies, that like connection where we're like,

oh, what is that? And you keep getting drawn and kind of almost like it feels addictive or it pulls you. Yeah. It's because it's your subconscious comfort zone. Oh, wow. This is just so, so interesting. What point is it attachment and at what point is it emotional availability and effort? Great question. Okay. So here, I love that you ask that. That should be the number one question on the internet about attachment styles. So dismissive avoidant attachment sets. So people who are, or even fearful avoidance, people who are avoidant, they will be a little touch and go, but they will initiate, they will make plans, they will try, they will show up. And I think people just assume, and this is a trap people fall into, especially more anxious people, they're like, oh, they must be

dismissive. And because anxious and even fearful of the woods can be like this with people who are, they're so empathetic that you kind of like end up justifying people's behavior sometimes. And the reality is like, when you see a dismissible wind person, here's what you'll know. Sometimes we'll shut down a little more in conflict. Sometimes it'll be slower to warm up after a conflict. Sometimes they'll be kind of touch and go with making plans, but they're going going to make them. They're going to show up. They're going to see you. If somebody is like not responding to you for days at a time, it's just not, they're just not interested. If somebody is like really responsive consistently throughout the week, you talk to them every day, but then, you know,

sometimes they kind of go missing for three hours in the afternoon and they're busy and they're not as good with their phone and they, you know, then that's very, you know, that would be typical dismissive avoidant or fearful avoidant. But if somebody just, you don't hear from them for days, if you're in a relationship with somebody and you don't see them for weeks, that's just the person's not showing up. They're not invested. And so, you know, that's a really important distinguishing factor. Somebody, you'll know they're understood. They'll tell you that they really care.

They'll show up. They'll see you. There will be an element of consistency there, even if it's less so than you would see with a secure attachment style. They won't keep you guessing too much. Like, they might be difficult sometimes where they shut down a little more or in a conflict. They're hot and cold or touch and go. But like, you'll see them try.

You'll see them care. And you won't really be guessing so much. So if somebody's just not even making an effort, they're not interested and it's time to like put up your boundaries and move on. Yeah. Wow. This just explains so much of my current past present line. Yeah. Okay, I swear I could talk to you for hours for listeners realizing like, oh my God, this explains so much. Where should they start? Okay. So first thing is you want to identify what your wounds are and what your needs are. So, you know, here, we went through a lot of the core wounds of them. Do that exercise we talked about. It will really heal a lot of your triggers. And it, it like, It takes two to three minutes a day. And I always say to people, it's always more work not to do the work.

So start there. The second thing that's really important is there's a really good quote from somebody named Dr. Gabramate. And he says, trauma are the things that happened to us that shouldn't have happened. So abuse, turmoil, those types of things. But it's also the things that should have happened that didn't. So the things we deeply needed that we didn't get access to. And what's really interesting is for each attachment sound when we broke down those needs,

each of those needs we talked about. So for the anxious, we said reassurance, validation, consistency. these certainty for the dismissive avoidant, understanding, attunement, empathy, a lot of these things. Those are things that children didn't get access to at a deep level that in a perfect world in a securely attached household they would have. And what we don't understand because we've adapted to it is deeply missing needs from our family of origin from our home actually leaves us with unresolved grief. And so what we actually have to do is people and part of our own healing is to learn to

meet our own needs consistently over time for about 21 day cycles. because that's how long it takes to build really strong neural networks. So the things that you're wanting from others so deeply, the things that you're seeking, oh, if only my partner gave me more reassurance, oh, if only my partner was more empathetic or supportive, those are things we actually have to give to ourselves first. It rewires them in our own mind. It heals from this unresolved grief. And it stops us from putting kind of unnecessary pressure on relationships for people to do it for us.

And in turn, we actually receive better from people when they do show up for us. So we talk about five pillars of healing. One is rewiring your core wounds. Number two is meeting your deeply on met needs from child. childhood. So healing. Number three is regulating your nervous system. So meditation, breath work, yoga, things that are morning and evening exercises to get you comfortable being in your body. Because each insecure attachment style has a very dysregulated nervous system. Love that. We have to learn how to communicate properly. I remember when I was fearful avoidant.

I would not communicate for the life of me. I was like, oh, it's too vulnerable to speak my needs. And I would only communicate from like a place of frustration. And unfortunately, when we're communicating from frustration, we're not actually communicating at all. And there's a big difference. I mean, we go through in our programs a lot of in-depth communication tools, but just as an example, one of them is called positive framing. So the difference between saying, you don't care about me, you never spend enough time with me versus saying, hey, I'm feeling disconnected. I would really love to spend more time together and be present. Let's plan a fun day night this weekend. One gets you heard. One just causes chaos and turmoil in the relationship.

And unfortunately, especially avoid an attachment styles, they don't know how to be vulnerable. They're not conditioned with positive associations to vulnerability. So they hold things hold things in. And then when they do communicate, it's from frustration. And it's like these kind of jabs or remarks or, and it's not like a short fuse response. And exactly. And that is a symptom of a lot of uncommunicated things that happened first that they weren't saying. I used to, first I'll tell you firsthand. And this is so typical fearful ones. I used to feel insecure about things sometimes in relationships. And I would be like, I will never tell the person that's way too vulnerable. And then I would get mad at like, you didn't close the cupboard.

Like get mad about something so unrelated, because I was projecting. Exactly. And so one of the big things in healing, especially for fearful avoidance and dismissible avoidance, is to learn to practice exposure work on vulnerability, titrating vulnerability, learning to speak up, learning to let people in that way.

Because what happens otherwise is you're never communicating your needs, so you're never feeling deeply seen unknown. And honestly, this is something we've seen through thousands of people in our programs. What this is, I'll just speak from personal experience, I, when I started communicating, I was like, oh my gosh, people actually care about me way more than I thought because I was always like, I'm going to do it on my own. I'm going to figure it out. You know, I'll do it for everybody else. It's fine. And then I wouldn't ever be vulnerable and say what I needed. And I'd always just kind of buckle down and do it on my own. And then when I was like, oh, I have to practice being vulnerable, letting people and saying that I have needs to. Because then I would feel like, well, people aren't meeting my needs. I'm meeting theirs. And I would push them away.

And instead when I was like, no, no, I have to communicate and open up and say what I need and learn my needs and start sharing them. I felt so much more loved as a person, so much more safe in my relationship, so much more connected in ways that I, like, were just an unknown to me prior. And that's what you see from every fearful avoidant in their healing journey. They report the same things over and over again. So learning healthy forms of communication is a huge step towards healing. And then our last thing is learning your boundaries. So anxious attachments also have no boundaries. Desmissible avoidance have extreme boundaries and fearful avoidance are all or nothing with their boundaries, just like they're all or nothing with many things in their life. Yeah. And so actually rewiring your boundaries is a huge

part towards healing. So those are the five pillars of actually changing your attachment style when people change their attachment style. So some of our data is that number one, people report doing the work on those five pillars and report feeling twice as satisfied in their relationship. So their relationship satisfaction goes up by 200%, which is wild. It's so cool. Number two, people report having 50% less conflict in a relationship as a result of being 50% less triggered. And number three, people who are single who did the work to just heal their own attachment style reported feeling so much more confident in dating, getting to know people, putting themselves out there, and actually picking the right partner instead of picking from their patterns and their trauma from childhood.

Oh, okay. If you could leave people with one thing to remember about attachment styles, what would it be? I would say one of the best things to remember is like what your triggers are and that exercise for rewiring them because your triggers are things that wreak havoc in all areas of your life. And number two, to learn what your needs are because that's really a huge part of who we are as people. And so going back through and listening back to the part where it's like, okay, these are my needs, meeting them yourself, learning to share them with other people. It would help you feel more connected. And it also helps you feel like, okay, this is what lights me up. This is if I can design my life with more people or more things that bring these things into my life. We feel so much

more fulfilled and satisfied. So that's definitely a huge part of just not only our healing process, but also just our general well-being. Yeah. Well, this has been amazing. Like I said, I could seriously talk to you for hours, but I'm really grateful for this conversation. I do think it'll be a turning point in our relationship now that we have this information and know what work we need to do. I mean, I'm secure, so I don't have to do. You're doing really well, though. You need to do? No, but I mean, I really, I have done the work.

I guarantee I was absolutely an anxious attachment in friendships and relationships, maybe with my family. But now, I mean, I do know that I have done the work and it shows because I'm now a secure attachment style according to your quiz. So, no, I just having the understanding of this, it's just, it's great, you know. So thank you so much for being here today. And I think what I appreciate most about this is that it isn't about labeling yourself or your partner as like good or bad. You know, it's about awareness and compassion and realizing that just so many of our reactions come from things we learned a long time ago.

And it's not because we're broken. It's not our fault. You know, it's because we were trying to feel safe. So I know for me, learning that I'm securely attached and understanding more about what that means and learning about fearful avoidant attachment has just given me so much to think about and to go home with. And I'm absolutely going to make my husband listen to this episode. And it's not even in a scary way, but it's like in a really empowering way. Like I feel so good after just listening to the book and everything and this conversation. conversation. I'm like, okay, now I can be more intentional. And I just want to say to all of my

listeners, you know, if this conversation resonated with you, I cannot recommend today's guest enough. Taise Gibson is an amazing resource if you want to go deeper into your attachment style and actually do the work, which I recommend you all should do new year, new me, let's do it, and not just talk about it, but actually take action. So you can find Taise through the personal development school where she has courses, tools, and an attachment style quiz that really helped open my eyes. I had my two besties take it. We're all secure attached. We're like, this is a perfect little trio. That's amazing. And also be sure to check out her book, Learning Love, which goes so much deeper into why we attach the way we do and how we can build healthier relationships, not just

romantically, but with ourselves too. So I will make sure all of Tice's information is linked in our show notes so you can explore at your own pace. But thank you for just such a thoughtful, grounded, incredible conversation. This is honestly one of my favorite podcasts I've done. This is like really good. And I've been doing this a long time. But I feel like this conversation I'm going to take so much from. And it's like it's life changing, honestly.

Thank you. Thank you. And I just want to say you're an incredible host. I do so many podcasts. And you guys were so repaired and your questions were so thoughtful. And I can honestly really tell you've been doing the work too. And so, yeah, this is amazing. I really enjoyed this too.

Now, this conversation was recorded earlier in the month, and originally I didn't plan on doing a jacks hole or flowers of the week for this episode. But after the events of this week, I could not stay silent on the podcast. Obviously, I've been posting on Instagram, but it just didn't feel right putting out an episode without acknowledging this. Therefore, this week's jacks hole goes to none other than ICE and the departments and politicians who continue to support and excuse actions that result in this level of cruelty and harm. It's literally inhumane what has been happening. And it's like when the government is murdering its own citizens, that is not a country I recognize or identify with. It's not the America I was raised to believe in. And it's not something we should ever accept as normal. And because I can't talk about that without also acknowledging what has given me hope,

my flowers of the week go to the people of Minnesota and the people across the country who have spoken up, shown up, and refused to stay silent. What's been really powerful to witness is that this response has not been about political affiliation. It's been about humanity. People from all walks of life condemning what happened, disavowing these actions, and demanding accountability and change. And that is the America, I know, and I love an America where at our core we still believe in dignity, justice, and the value of human life. In an incredibly dark moment, that collective response. gives me hope that we can still rise above this and push for something better. So that wraps up my episode this week. Thank you so much.

Thank you guys for listening. And as always, be kind to yourselves. Give yourself grace. And I'll see you next week. Getting into some more shenanigans. Thanks for listening to shenanigans with Shea. Tune in next time for juicy updates from the world of reality TV, pop culture, and more. Download new episodes every week.

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