School of War - Can Courage Save America? With Rye Barcott

Episode Date: June 19, 2026

Rye Barcott, co-founder and CEO of With Honor, veteran of the U.S. Marine Corps, and author of Courage Can Save Us, joins School of War to discuss the meaning of courage, the enduring value of service, and the challenge of bridging America’s growing political divides. What separates courage from bravery? Can military service help heal a polarized America? And what does principled leadership look like in an age of distrust? 01:28 - Murph challenge 03:08 - Rye's father and Vietnam 05:08 - Defining courage 07:57 - First to Fight 13:49 - Joining the Marines 14:22 - September 11th 17:42 - Bosnia, Africa, and Fallujah 19:16 - Marine commanders 23:52 - Life in Fallujah 26:05 - The With Honor mission 28:29 - America's polarization problem 30:05 - Veterans in politics 33:12 - The civil-military divide 37:23 - Courage in politics 41:57 - Congressman Jared Golden 44:19 - Senator Todd Young Follow along on Instagram, X @schoolofwarpod, and YouTube @SchoolofWarPodcast Find more at The Free Press. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming, Ontario. It's not easy to find someone these days who thinks that the future of American politics might be bipartisanship and selfless service. But my guest today, Rye Barkott, gives us an optimistic case. Let's get into it. It is for a war. This is the Rocky invasion of Hawaii. December 7, 1941, a date which will live in infinity.

The bloody experience of Vietnam is to end in a state. We continue to face the grave situation in the ground. Fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing ground. We shall fight in the fields and in the streets. We shall never surrender. If you read the headlines about Israel, you're only getting a tiny slice of a long, complicated story without depth, context, or sometimes even the basic facts. I'm Norm Weissman, the host of unpacking Israeli history, the podcast that dives into the fascinating,

and sometimes controversial events and figures that have shaped Israel's past and present each week on unpacking Israeli history. I explore the layers of Israeli history, debates around the Palestinian and Israeli conflict, the cultural forces at play, drawing from a variety of sources and perspectives. So if you're looking for a nuance, thought-provoking take on Israel one that avoids the oversimplifications and political spin, I think you'll really appreciate the show. Find a packings or the history wherever you listen to your podcast or on YouTube. Hi, I'm Aaron McLean. Thanks for joining the School of War. I am delighted to welcome to the show today.

Rye Barkat. He is the co-founder and CEO of With Honor, a political nonprofit that fights polarization in Congress with principled veteran leadership. I'm reading that from your materials there, Rye. You're a Marine, Semperfi, author now of two books most recently in the one we're really to discuss today. Courage can save us. Ten extraordinary Americans in the fight for our future. Before that, a memoir of your own service. It happened on the way to war. Rai, thank you so much for joining School of War. Thanks. Great to be on. I am, if I'm moving slow for the folks on video, I completed a MRF yesterday and I'm feeling it. Tell the folks at home what a MRF is.

A Murph is named after the late Navy SEAL, MIRF, Lieutenant Murphy, who was he was killed in action in Afghanistan. And it is a routine, often done on Memorial Day, of two, one-mile runs, a hundred pull-ups, 200 push-ups, and 300 squats. And if you want like extra credit, you run it, I actually have the, I have it right here, you run it with your, your flack jacket. This one actually has the old sappy plates. Don't tell me how I acquired know, but my old savvy point. There's a, there's a Siff staffer, Marine back there in. I don't remember if you were Lejeune or Poulton, but somewhere.

He's still looking for those, dude. Like, think, think of the pain. Oh, no, I think they charged me for him. It was, like, you know, yeah, because we had that the new, the better body armor was coming out at that, you know, I was getting out in 2005, the better part, or 06, rather, the better stuff was coming out. So they were like, all right, Marines, you can buy them for, you know, 50 bucks or something. There you go.

There you go. I never use them except for one day a year, Memorial Day. Go for my run. So I want to talk to you about this new book, which opens with a really arresting story of essentially how you came to think about serving one day. And like so many of us, it was a story of a close family member, in your case, your father, who served as a Marine in Vietnam. There's an extraordinary anecdote involving you finally finding out.

about what a scar in his cheek, what caused it. Let's start by just you telling us that story because it was quite arresting and remarkable, Ray. Yeah, I mean, like both busts. My father served, he did not make it a career, but he was in the Vietnam generation. And he volunteered for Vietnam with Phil Caputo, who we just lost another great writer a couple weeks ago,

and they were friends in 1965, 1966. And he was a Marine recon officer. and he had this scar on his face that reminded some of my friends when I was, you know, around 10 years old of Barnes in platoon. The, uh, he's got this scar on his face because my father was shot in the face and miraculously survived on an on an ambush. Um, well, one of the other rounds during that ambush, uh, was a heading for his heart and was intercepted by a smoke grenade.

I actually had the smoke grenade. It's right back there. It's just like a, it's encased in wax. Is it, sorry, sorry, is it, is it in the, it's in the white, like the white thing over your shoulder there?

We're on video, oh, you know, and we see your teammate there too. That's, that's impressive. There we go, yeah, I got my wing mane here. Yeah, show, I'm, I actually want to see this.

Yeah, this is, it's it. Well, I remember feeling like almost a mystical force if you're touching this, like truly for the first time, but that's the smoke in. And so the, look at that. And so the round went in. right here and then like basically blew out the back of it. Wow. And, you know, saved his life and

enabled mine. Uh, because I definitely, that was a, that was a close call for dad. And, you know, I, um, I, I became very fascinated by the idea of courage from that moment. And my father never, of course, referred to it as courage. You wouldn't be such a, uh, you know, such a, such a guy. Um, But clearly it was, and I think the courage moment, as I came to understand, it was not how he responded in the moment, but it was that he continued to serve afterwards. So he was given a chance to go in the rear with the gear, but he chose to continue to serve as a recon platoon commander for six months and carry out his tour. And that is really how I think about courage. That courage, whoops, courage is distinct from bravery. Insofar as bravery can be, both are noble.

Bravery can be instinctive. It can be in the moment. It can be not deliberate. You know, we develop our muscle memory and our training to respond, hopefully, in moments when so called. And the other, but courage, on the other hand, is a, it's a decision. It is actually weighing the risks and making a conscious choice. And it's making a choice that is serving something larger than yourself. Bravery can serve, be self-interest or can be, you know, more selfless. But courage is always serving something that's larger than yourself. In this case, for dad, you know, was most, you know, foremost the Marines in his place. tune. And so that was the first moment that that's that I started really getting interested in it and

thinking honestly about service myself. And my father's reaction to the Marine Corps service was one, he was he was certainly proud. He was not encouraging though necessarily of the service because he fought in a war that he believed was just filled with bad decisions. And at times, sometimes, if not lies, you know, misinformation and misleading statements. You know, H.R. McMaster writes his famous book about Derelliction of Duty and so on and so forth. But the, you know, my father's example when going through that really planted in my mind, both an interest and courage, which becomes the topic of this book, and then a commitment to trying to do, you know, live my life in a way that has service as a part of it. And, you know,

ended up applying for ROTC from that point on. So we'll come back to the story here in a second, but just to linger on your distinction between bravery and courage, which is, I don't think I've heard that distinction made before, at least as cleanly or intentionally as you've just made it. And, you know, puts me a minute, I just, I'm embarrassed to say I only for the very first time this past weekend watched the movie first to fight.

Have you seen this movie, Rye? Here's a good Marine contest for you. Yeah. I would have failed until last week anyway. Are you familiar with it? One of Gene Hackman's first movies about Marines in the Pacific, first on Guadalcanal Canal and then later in the island having campaign. It's magnificent and it's loosely, an emphasis on loosely here for reasons that will become

obvious in a moment based on the career of John Bazelone in the sense that the lead actor who I'd never seen in anything before, Chad Everett, and this movie's from the 60s, it's the 1967 movie. And I think already has shades of like Vietnam kind of color. coloring it, even though the Marine Corps obviously sort of robustly supports it. But the main character, you know, we meet him on Guadalcanal. He and his buddies repulse a Japanese assault. And it is basically the John Bazelone story. He's like last man standing, you know, lifting the machine gun out of the position, you know, firing it from the standing, the final protective

fires, and receives the Medal of Honor and heads back to United States and tours around, meets a nice girl, falls in love, gets married, and then is sent back to the Pacific. So up till now, this is all the John Bazalone story. And, of course, as many listeners may know, Bazelone then goes back into action on Iwo Jima. I was killed in action, highly decorated again. I think he gets the Navy Cross the second time around, if I'm not mistaken. Well, in the movie, things diverge.

And it's very interesting. The character basically suffers from a breakdown on the battlefield when he goes back into it. Has real combat stress, can't make to see. He got a battlefield commission, by the way, as we're saying. So he's a platoon commander now. And basically breaks down in combat. And there are these riveting scenes where Gene Hackman, who plays the salty sergeant, who's the platoon sergeant, has to deal with the platoon that has this, like, famous,

nationally famous war hero as their platoon commander, who obviously can't hack it. Hackman is the guy who, like, has to hold it together. It's sort of dark. It's complicated. Hackman kind of saves the main character. And the end, you kind of bucks them up. And the main character's, you know, it's a Hollywood. movie. So the main character, you know, it saves the day in the end and re-unlocks his heroism.

But it's a pretty gritty movie. The combat scenes, even if they don't look like saving Private Ryan exactly, like in terms of the way the characters react, like they're clearly written and made by people who know what real combat is. It's a pretty good movie, truth be told. And so, sorry, that was a long summary, but the reason I cited is because in the Guadalcanal scenes, the protagonist, he's reacting. Now, he reacts in a way that's incredibly brave, indeed unusually and conspicuously brave. But then he carries, you know, the guilt from, you know, the sort of survivors guilt from it as well. And then when he's back in the action, now with a wife, now with something at home to, you know, to really reflect on and a lot of time to reflect about

what's coming and the new responsibility of being an officer and all the eyes on him before he was in the ranks and no one paid a great deal of attention to him before. he did this incredible thing. You know, he struggles. He struggles with his courage dramatically. It's a good flick, and it's funny that you give that distinction, because the movie seems to me to illustrate something like it. Yeah, and it's interesting.

I'm right. My son is 13 years old, and he's a big history buff now, which I'm thrilled about. And we're in the middle of, or we're about to finish Laura Hildebrandt's amazing book, Unbroken. And we're in a spot where the protagonist, the real, life protagonist, Louis, is going through the trauma of reintegration. And so he comes out of this incredible, this unbelievable journey in World War II, where he's a Japanese prisoner of war in in Japan. And he kind of holds it together for a while. And then it comes rushing back at him.

And I think, you know, for me, as I think about courage and my distinction is, is a little bit of a distinct, you know, it's a unique distinction, but it comes from the Stoics. and some of the Greek writing originally. Courage can, you can, you aspire to it, but, you know, you hope that you meet the moment when the moment comes. Just because you had it at one point doesn't necessarily mean that you can continue

to rise to the occasion when it presents itself. But I view it as a rare occurrence for most humans, you know. Now, if you're serving in a combat scenario, as you did in Marja, I believe that almost every moment that you are serving requires a degree of courage. Why? Because you have made a choice to be there. You are in a, you are in harm's way. So there's a level of courage for just being in the service. But then there are also these, you know, moments in time. And that's what I've tried to do with these profiles is say, okay, what were the, what were the key moments of both physical courage and moral courage? And, you know, occasionally you'll see the

fusion of the two. Well, let's talk about Fallujah, which, if I'm not mistaken, was kind of the capstone of your time in the infantry. So we'll go back to your joining up. There's last thought, but there's certainly any Marines listening should check out First to Fight. I just love Gene Hackman, too. Yes. As you know, he was a Marine in real life. And so his performance, you know, he doesn't really look like a movie star, even as a young guy. And his performance is just phenomenal. I mean, it's like, oh, this is the real thing. This is actually exactly what it would look like for an NCO to find himself in this unenviable set of circumstances. I'm definitely going to go watch it.

And I'm thinking about with the old breed right now, which is one of the few books that I've read more than once. Also a chronicle of that point in time. Don't let it on the Marines can read, right? It's unsettling to the people. So there you are. You decide to join. What year did you go in?

What were you anticipating from your Marine service? because you joined a little before 9-11, right? I did, yeah. I was, well, I was ROTC, and I was just a point of correction. I was a CI human guy in the Marines, not an infantry officer, but went in ROTC at UNC Chapel Hill. And I signed up in 1998 and then ended up going into the fleet and was at the basic school when September 11th happened.

And so I was expecting. a very different type of service. At that time, we were preparing for peacekeeping missions, you know, interventions of ethnic strife. That was the, that was the age of, you know, Francis Fukuyama writing about the end of history, you know. So much for that, right? I remember taking in college a class on nationalism. It was a seminar on nationalism. There were only about 20 folks.

I ended up meeting my wife there of all places. But as we were sitting there taking the class, most of us were thinking, you know, is this relevant for our lives? Oh, and really no advantage point of kind of what was to come. But yeah, I was at the basic school when September 11th happened. Remember being we were getting ready to go out into the field. We were still in the barracks at the time and, you know, froze and started watching what was transpiring. And then we were all quite envious of the IOC guys. the folks in infantry officer course, you know, down the hall because they were mobilized to go

provide first response at the at the Pentagon. Oh, fascinating. I didn't know that that had happened. I was still a junior in college. And I just remember the Marines bringing out, the Marines still guarded the Naval Academy at that time. I was across the street at the hippie liberal arts college, St. John's also in downtown Annapolis. And the Marines brought out all the, you know, the medium machine guns and stuff to guard the gates at the academy. And I'll be it. I remember thinking to myself that it seemed unlikely to me that al-Qaeda was going to take a swing in Annapolis. I mean, you never know anything could happen, but they were certainly taking it very seriously. I didn't know that IOC went to the Pentagon.

Yeah. Yeah, it was, again, we were all thinking, oh, man, we're going to miss the war. Of course. Of course we're thinking we're going to miss the war right now. Of course. And little did we know. Little did you know. I'm not going to say every Marine that's come on this show is a former CI human officer,

but it is definitely like an overrepresented constituency because now it's you, it's Matt Pottinger, it's Mike Gallagher. I mean, you are an overrepresented constituency. Thanks for coming on and dealing with that. Those are two great guys. And just as an aside, Mike Gallagher helped us set up with honor, the organization that I lead now. And Matt Pottinger really kind of helped us put into tradition something that we just completed last week for the eighth time. and that was the cleaning of the Vietnam wall. So we gathered the vets in Congress and clean the wall before Memorial Day. And this time we did it with the three surviving Vietnam vets. But Pajinger was aware of that from when he was Deputy National Security Advisor and went to Australia because there is a remembrance day in Australia and that is part of their tradition is that their elected officials go out

and humble themselves and clean the memorials to their sacred war days. So help me understand the shape of your active duty service. So you had some non-Iraq Afghanistan deployments. Was the deployment to Fallujah at the end, the only Iraq one? Or just to walk me through what happened? Yeah, it was, you know, CI Humet was such a unique kind of MOS. We were deployed all around the world. We still had guys in Marines in Bosnia and the Horn of Africa. And so for my first two deployments. The first one was in Bosnia, right when the invasion was happening in Iraq. And we were essentially going after war criminals, and then there was a bit of a counterterrorism element there. And so that was a deployment for six months as a second lieutenant. And then came back and went to the

Horn of Africa, where we had our base, we still have our base in Djibouti. And that was, we were mostly doing missions, also kind of counterterrorism focused along the Somali border and in Yemen. And that was 2004, 2005. And then in 2005, you know, a lot of people forget that we had stop loss in the Marines. We basically, you know, didn't have enough Marines. And I was very, very eager to get to the front lines after having these two deployments. So I deployed as our company executive officer initially and attached to Regimental Combat Team 5 and 8 with 2 CI human teams. And the 5th or the 8th Marines at the time was led by then Colonel Dave Berger, who would later

become commandant. And then then Colonel Larry Nicholson took over RCT5. Foulouja, this was after the battle, still very active in terms of the counterinsurgency efforts. We were essentially trying to stand up, you know, a Fallujah City Council. And that was a perilous job in and of itself. I think most of the council members were getting kind of picked off every, every few months. And we were still going after Zocawi at the time. So that was my, that was my final assignment and then left active duty after five-year period of time. When you're a mid-sized business, you need every competitive advantage you can get.

Like an AI solution that works for you, not against you. SAP Grow is built with AI embedded at its core, working across every system. And it's ready to go from day one so you can hit the ground running. Bring it with SAP Grow. AI Cloud ERP for any size business. Well, General Nicholson, of course, was my brigade commander in Afghanistan. And then General Berger, I never met him until I was out and he was commandant. And I was a congressional staffer still sort of dealing with the, the vertigo, the disorientation of having been an officer and a company great officer that only relatively recently to, you know, working for a senator on the Armed Services Committee and being treated accordingly by officers who previously would not have treated me that way.

They would treat me badly. but you know what I mean. I would have been seen and not heard the best. And I distinctly, to illustrate this, I distinctly remember that Marines are very good at congressional relations as we both know. And one element of that is the commandant always hosts a holiday party just for congressional staffers,

not for the members, which is kind of genius when you think about it. And so in we go to his house. That's right. And it's the only service. I believe he's the only one that, anyways. All I know is I didn't get invited to any others just for staffers.

I certainly staffed at other events, but to be actually the guest was unique. And again, a kind of illustration of the Marines clubberness. And I just remember walking in the door of the Commandant's residence. And, you know, there's General Berger in his sweater with his wife. And he's like, hey, I'm Dave. And I think I even joked with him at the time. It's good we're having this conversation now and not 10 years earlier

because I don't know, I don't think I would have handled it quite as well 10 years earlier. But I remember he was such a great commander. And we were actually in a Humvee that got hit. it by a 155, everybody was fine with it. But he immediately, immediately turned to the Marine in the turret and, you know, started basically providing first aid to him. And it was a great commonot, too. He actually makes an appearance in this book in one of the chapters because he took a real interest in what some of the vets were doing in Congress to help create the 988 national mental health hotline, suicide hotline.

initially for vets, and now it's, you know, national. And Berger came and said to me during an interview, he said, you know, it's important for people to know that this exists, and it's hard to ask for help. So when it came out, I wrote to the vets that were involved with, that Gallagher was involved with a few others, and said, this thing matters. I'm going to put out an Almor and let Marines know about it. And so within about a, you know, a week, the Marines knew that this thing existed and, you know, their commandant, you know, and said that it was fine to use it, you know, get over the stigma. I'll also go as far as saying that his highly controversial actions with force design back when he was commandant based on what's going on in the Persian Gulf now and in the Black Sea and you sort of see how warfare is evolving through the 2020s. I don't know. it's hard to go back and mount, I think, effective criticism, at least of the direction he was taking.

I mean, it was complicated, and there are lots of elements, and anyone can quibble with the details. But the notion that the Marine Corps was going to stay relevant by, you know, essentially doing sea denial from really austere places where life might get super unpleasant, and that's what we should be prepared for. I don't know. Seems like a pretty decent thesis, really. Yeah. Well, if you think about, like, moments of courage, there's some courage in that. again, regardless of where you come down on this, that Marine General took on the industrial complex and the K Street lobby. And that is not an easy battle always, you know, and he was doing it for,

he was trying to find the truth, you know. And so, so yeah, I think it was commendable both the ideas behind it as well as the fact that he put on the hard hat and went after it. And, but, especially on with regard to, uh, to this incident in particular, you know, he just care, he's a, he's a Marines general. He cares about the, he cares about the 18 and 19 year old Marines that make out of the majority of the Marine Corps. So tell me about your day to day in Fallujah. What was the target set like? What were your Marines doing? What was the actual work there? Yeah. C.I. Human guys were basically, we had teams attached to every infantry battalion. My team was attached to the recon, uh, battalion. And,

We were essentially rolling out with our units. Most of the activity was happening at night. It was typically raiding houses and then try to collect information about where the enemy location was and neutralized threats. And of course, going after target number one, which was Zarqawi at the time. And we made some headway on him, but he was killed a few months after my particular deployment ended. There's a lot of uncertainty in that environment. You know, it didn't really matter what your MOS was. A lot of, you know, the ID's threat was, was, was pretty robust at that point in time. And I remember leaving the deployment. And Iraq was, I mean,

front and center in the news. This was right before the surge. But every day it was, you know, right up there on the, in the headlines, in part because we were losing so many Americans. I remember thinking to myself, how the hell do we get out of this thing, you know? I mean, I mean, I'm in a field that is focused on intelligence and understanding what was going on. And I basically felt like we had a, you know, a real lack of clarity on how we could, you know, figure out an end state here. And I was basically incorrect. You know, I had access to, I mean, it was a young, it was a captain, so there are many layers above me.

But what I had not really put together was just the sectarian violence and how. essentially that could be addressed by, you know, factors outside of our control, well, not necessarily outside of our control, but what we ended up seeing with the Sunni awakening, where you had essentially a group of tribal elders decided to turn on the terrorist elements instead of, you know, wage war against both of us. So let's talk about everything that's come since. the organization with honor, the political work that you've done, the book, of course, which is a profile of a lot of the, or some of the prominent veterans who have passed through with honor.

I put it to you this way, and I'm curious your response to this. I mean, this is an organization that's devoted to, I don't think you use the word bipartisan, do you? Is it transpartisan? What is it? What is it? Yeah, cross-partisan. Cross-partisan. Yeah, and basically the reason why we say that is that we'll support, you know, party innovate, you know, independence, if they're viable, obviously, uh, these days, you know, most is done within the two-party framework. So cross-partisan, um, about, you know, a vibrant middle sort of, I mean, these are my words, so reject any of you see, you see fit, as you see fit, obviously. Um, and, um, uh, uh, you know, combating polarization,

uh, seems like a pretty tough road to hoe here in 2026, right? What do you think? Yeah, we've clearly not hit our mission accomplished yet because we've been at this thing for like nine years, you know. It is tough, it is tough work. But one of the things that I find encouraging is that there is a group of vets that, again, they don't necessarily agree on much from the policy perspective, but they're still able to have trust and talk about serious subjects and, you know, get some things moving in an environment that's pretty corrosive. And we really need that, especially as we see this, you know, the threat, the threats that we're in right now with the pace of technological change, you know, our rising adversaries. I mean, we have to be able to at least have some spaces where we can trust one another and have serious conversations and not worry about, you know, the guy or lady that is a member next to you going out and, you know, tweeting what you just said or weaponizing what you just said in a close. door session where you're trying to get to the truth. Yeah. I'm curious given that your, you know, your mission really is to is to fight polarization and you're doing so through the means of

supporting veterans due to you, you know, seem to represent something that that pushes back against it. You know, why are where we are? It would be hard to find anyone who disagreed with the notion that our politics are polarized. I think you might find people who roll their eyes at it, typically because not because they necessarily reject the characterization, but because in their view it's entirely the fault of the other side, if that makes sense. What is your account for why we are where we are? Yeah, I mean, I think that's a really important piece to it first,

is that the polarization that we see is the most problematic of it is the affective polarization, what's called affective, AFF, effective. And what that is speaking to is how Americans increasingly view the others as the enemy, as opposed to ideological polarization, which is about really the underlying ideas or policies. Don't get me wrong. Both exist, you know, effective and ideological. But the effective is really tough to break through. And when you look at the numbers, I mean, the estimates now are,

high as like 80% of registered Republicans and Democrats viewing the other side as the enemy. Yeah, I just pause for a moment and kind of let that sink in, right? Now, if we think about, you know, who registers about 40% of Americans don't register either way, are pretty checked at. Some of those are pretty checked out. Some are more partisan, but they're more registered. Among those that are registered, you got a third and a third. And, you know, that is the environment, in the context that we're living in, in part based on how we consume information. So the problem is around identity, in part,

not just ideas and rational thinking, right? And I think that this is one area where, and I believe in part of the reasons why I give my best hours to this, I wrote this book, is that the common experience of service, particularly military service, forces every American to work with individuals that do not think like they do on a common mission that matters for the country. And that is fundamentally a good thing. And it also happens to be an 80-20

issue, I mean, maybe even higher than an 80-20 issue. Most Americans, irrespective of their tribe, believe that service, particularly military service at a young age, is formative, does make a difference in terms of not only living better and healthier, lives, but also helping to unify the country. So that's part of the reason why this organization came about and said, all right, you know, veterans in Congress used to be about 70% back in the era of our fathers. That is now right around 20%. It's still higher than the population in the United States, but it's lower. But that group is one of the few groups that not only understand how to work, with individuals from different viewpoints,

but also happens to be one of the only groups that's still left in the United States that has trust across party lines. And we measure this each year with Gallup. It's not the highest trust. The highest trust belongs to our nurses, actually, as a group. But it is one of the few groups in America

that, that, again, has that trust cross party lines. That's a sacred thing. I remember when we were first starting the organization, the late Senator John, Ron Warner was part of our group in his 90s, World War II and Korea War Vett. And he said that you recalled to us, and he recalled to the vets that were in Congress and that are part of this organization. There were about 20 at the time.

We had a little conference. And he said, hey, guys, just don't take it for granted. You know, when I came back from the Korean War, the country was in a very different place. I wasn't wearing my uniform when I've, you know, traveled across country. in the train. And what you have right now is a, is a sacred level of respect,

albeit a lot of Americans are disconnected more and more for the military, but you have a level of respect and don't take that for granted and use that as an asset to actually make this place a better place. The service element is kind of our North Star. It's remarkable that the military

has maintained this position, given the pressure politically, that it's under. And I can kind of both sides this, and I'm curious your response to this. I mean, from the left, in popular memory, it really is a sort of a function and sort of peaks during Vietnam,

but the simmer is always there, that there's something inherently conservative, inherently suspicious about the military. A lot of what gets rolled out is, I haven't done a lot of Civ Mill, civil military relations, episodes for a variety of reasons. And one of them is I'm a little suspicious of the Civmill literature,

which seems to me to sometimes amount to like, oh my gosh, have you heard that they're kind of conservative in the military? That's kind of a problem. So that's, you know, the left has a sort of wary eye on the military for that reason. And then from the right, as very vividly demonstrated by, I think, the current Secretary of War, these aren't, I mean, these are words he would, he would say himself. I mean, in his estimate, the military is certainly a noble place full of good people, but it's been sort of glommed onto or captured in his critique by an officer corps

that has been captured by liberal elite society. And so it's very clear that Secretary Hax has sees, you know, part of his job as to dismantle that. So those are two pretty powerful forces to be trapped between. The left wing critique that this whole thing is a little fishy. Don't you guys like war a little bit too much?

There's something just kind of off about this whole thing and certainly anyone who would choose to do this. And then on the other side, like, yeah, all that stuff's true and we like it.

And by the way, we should stop sending, you know, colonels to Harvard so that they come back and screw it up. You know, that's a powerful couple forces to be trapped between.

Yeah. And what's happened, since I started the organization in 2018 was the cycle with another Marine I had served with and a late mentor of both of ours. And the military at that time was polling around national sentiment was like maybe 70% supporting broadly. The institution of the military is one of the few that was public institutions that had that broad level of support. And that's declined pretty significantly because the, you know, the military has been pulled into. And I think that this is not a, not, not, not, not exclusive to any one party, truly. But it's been pulled into, you know, various culture wars. In some cases, it's jumped into the culture wars itself. Although I think that oftentimes it has been brought in by the civilian leadership as opposed to the, the military and the brass leadership. But that, that has, that has worn on the institution. in terms of its level of trust across party lines.

And so you do have a chipping away at it. The civil-military relations piece is something that's always interested me. I did my honors thesis at UNC Chabell Hill with a fellow named Dr. Richard Cohn, K-O-H-N, who was HR McMaster's dissertation advisor way back when he was a Air Force, former chief historian of the Air Force. and he partnered with a professor of political scientists who maybe was on this show, Peter Fever from Duke. Anyways, they've read, they have led together some of the landmark studies on the, you know,

the civil military gap. And however you view the issue, it is certainly a gap that is increasing in American society, right? Fewer and fewer Americans have not only are few. are serving less than a percent of American, young Americans now serve within the military, but fewer have any really connection to military families and military service. I've had Peter on the show, Peter Fever, and he's great and he's a friend, and I have given him a hard time precisely along the lines that I was just sort of describing

my own attitude towards civil mill scholarship to you, and he handled it well, as you might imagine. Okay. So another one I want to toss you just to see how you respond. So the book is, you know, profile these, you've got five Republicans, five Democrats, all of whom with honor has supported, none of whom I think it's fair to say, certainly self-describes or as broadly perceived as a radical, like no one, no one from their parties far right or far left, even if, you know, you or I could probably go through.

I said, I won't put words you in my mouth. I could probably go through a few of their decisions. and quibble. That said, I'll just put it bluntly, right, a book about courage and politicians. Another tough road to ho. No? Like, what's your response to that?

That's like the last place that anybody looks to for courage. And like, let's base it, I mean, you know, it's interesting. Like Americans, I think, value courage, but generally also have a view of not seeing much of it, both obviously in our public life as well as as well as maybe privately and perhaps this this book can help change a bit of a perspective to this because public office while filled with individuals that are flawed still is a calling that should be noble in our country it should be

noble. And it takes a degree of guts, if not courage, to even put your name on the ballot. I've never done it. I've just worked with folks that have. But in this environment, not only as toxic as it is, but also with the level of political violence that exists these days, you know, it takes some guts to rise to that occasion. It is especially difficult to actually go against your, you know, the herd, go against the tribe, do things that might ostracize you, these moments of moral courage where you might lose friendships, you might lose your reputation.

God forbid, you might lose your career as an elected official. You might actually not get reelected. And most people will follow their incentives. I get that. What this book tries to do is say, there are moments when some of these individuals, none of whom are perfect, everyone of whom can be, you know,

you can find flaws with, have taken some tougher positions at moments when it actually costs them in order to do the right what they see as the right thing to advance a common good that is not necessarily aligned with their self-interest. Hmm, that's a real moment. They're pretty damn rare. Will we be better off if we recognize those and in some ways celebrate or at least seek more of it in our public leadership?

I think so. I am pretty realistic that I don't, at least at this stage now after eight years of this, I don't think this alone is going to be the solution. I do believe strongly in it. It's why I give it my best hours. I'm giving all the author proceeds from the book to the organization. I mean, I truly believe in this. And it's heartening to see a group of individuals that are still able to have adult conversations and trust each other and try to work in this. in this difficult environment, but, but I'm not, you know, suggesting that this is a silver bullet or that these individuals always meet the moment. They don't. Like, especially in the political orbit,

you know, you are constantly tested and making trade-off. Before we go, I mean, let's, let's find a moment or two here in which you've profiled where someone does meet the moment, as you put it, And one thing is the character, I think it's all or certainly almost all of the folks you profile join the military after 9-11, which is an interesting fact and sort of speaks to the youth, relative youth of the group. Pick someone, pick a couple who you want to highlight for listeners and how their military service in a meaningful way, not in a, you know, any veteran running for office can slap up an ad with the picture of them in uniform. but you and I, Rye, we're old cynics, and we know that the military is a big organization. It's full of good people and bad people, usually between the 40-yard lines on both fronts.

And, you know, the fact that you wore your uniform means you served your country. But somebody whose story that really, you know, their service resonates with their political career in a way that really is meaningful. Well, since we're both Marines, I'll pick two Marines. And the first is, is Jared Golden. The book ends on Jerry Golden. And Jared Golden's story is a little bit of a warning, actually, about what kind of where we are as a country, but also I think a point of optimism with regard to his character. So he was a Marine Infantry Men, enlisted infantryman. The chapter with Jared Obins when he was responding on a QRF in Afghanistan. And unfortunately, had two of his,

Two of his fellow Marines killed in action. He was about 20 years old at the time. Jared is a member of Congress from rural Maine. And there was a really tragic shooting incident that occurred in rural Maine at Lewiston. It was not far from his home. And the laws at the time were we're what we call yellow flag laws.

And essentially, the shooter, unfortunately, was somebody that was serving in the National Guard and had a history of mental illness, but for a variety of kind of bureaucratic reasons, wasn't able to be apprehended. At any rate, he was on the loose for quite some, for hours, and Jared's home's about three minutes away. And the episode for him made him rethink his position on an issue

that was, you know, particularly important one in his district. And so he changed his position on assault weapons bands. And that is an issue for him that almost costs the next election. He won by like, you know, 0.3%. But he did that without calling anybody, as he recalls it. He just said, you know, this is where, yeah, this is a personal issue now for me. I went up and visited him and spent a little bit of time with his family. He has decided not to run for re-election.

in part, in part given that he's kind of done his part, his time. He's now coming up on the eight-year mark. He's done his service. He's going to go on and in his 40s have another career, but also in part just due to the level, frankly, of threats and the grind of the job as a young parent, as a parent with a young kid. Very honorable person, and the book concludes on Jared.

Another Marine that's in the book is Senator Todd Young. He's actually one of the few vets that came in prior to 9-11. And he's described by one journalist as the senator, one of the more impactful senators that you've never heard of. And what Young really focuses on is doing the work and building the relationships across the party lines. One of his signature bills was the Chips and Science Act, took some heat, for partnering with Democrats on that. He's a Republican. In fact, the lead on that side was the Democratic leader, Chuck Schumer. So you can imagine the level of comfort, you know, being, as you know, working in that building, being a Republican senator that's got a partner

with the Democratic lead on a major bill. But they worked it for a number of years and ended up getting it through. And I think it's an important piece of legislation for our overall national security. Each of those episodes, do we go into more depth in terms of what actually happened and some of the tradeoffs and how they thought through the examples? But I think both at their core

are motivated by the pursuit of public service as something that is benefiting, you know, society in the country, more so than necessarily your own narrow self-interest. Ry Barcott, the book is called Courage Can Save Us, 10 Extraordinary Americans in the Fight for Our Future. I really appreciate your time. Thanks for coming on School of War, Ray.

Thanks, Aaron. Great to be here. Spotify, it's Jay Shetty. Are you one of those media strategy people? Scrolling through spreadsheets, searching for an audience that pays twice as much attention to your ads than they do on social? Let me introduce you to fans.

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