School of War - Ep 225: Geoff Ball on the Evacuation of Kabul

Episode Date: August 26, 2025

Major Geoff Ball, USMC, co-founder of the Connecting File, commanded Company G, 2nd Battalion, 1st Marines during the evacuation at Kabul International Airport in 2021, including the suicide bombing at Abbey Gate on 26 August. He shares the story of his company and their extraordinary service in Afghanistan. ▪️ Times     •      01:51 Introduction     •      02:03 The Marines     •      08:20 Quantico          •      13:07 29 Palms     •      16:32 On the job training           •      21:54 Ghost Company           •      26:44 The call     •      32:10 Isolation     •      38:30 Abbey Gate        •      46:16 Unity of effort      •      48:53 Who got through      •      51:40 The Taliban     •      52:54 26 August     •      56:52 Take command      •      59:47 No good choices     •      01:06:42 The Fallen Follow along on Instagram, X @schoolofwarpod, and YouTube @SchoolofWarPodcast Find a transcript of today’s episode on our School of War Substack

We have a remarkable interview this morning. Four years ago today, on 26 August 2021, a suicide bomber killed over 100 Afghan civilians and 13 American service members, one soldier, one sailor, and 11 United States Marines. At the Abbey Gate, a chaotic entry point into the Kabul airport, where final evacuations were occurring as Afghanistan came under the control of the Taliban. Major Jeff Ball was there, the Marine Company commander on the scene responsible for the gate. We talked today about the Marine Corps and about the day itself and exactly what happened. His opinions, I should be clear, are his own, and do not reflect those of his unit, service, or the Department of Defense. Let's get into it. It is for war this Iraqi invasion of Labor.

A bloody experience of Vietnam is to end in a state. We continue to face the grave situation in France. We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the land in the fields and in the streets. We shall never surrender. For more, follow School of War on YouTube, Instagram, Substack, and Twitter. And feel free to follow me on Twitter at Aaron B. McLean. Hi, I'm Aaron McLean.

Thanks for joining School of War. I am delighted to welcome to the show today, Major Jeff Ball, United States Marine Corps. Jeff teaches at the United States Naval Academy. He is an infantry Marine. He is commanded at the platoon level, at the company level, to include a deployment there to Kabul in 2021. Jeff, thank you so much for joining the show. Aaron, thanks so much for having me on, really excited to be talking with you today. I got to ask you, you joined up in 2012, if I'm not mistaken.

And tell me what it was like to grow up is Jeff Ball and what on earth possessed you to join the Marines. Great, great question. Did not grow up in a military family? Was very much focused on playing baseball most of my life. And that's what really took me into college. And in my mind, I think I was definitely a prospect on paper. I was very far from being a prospect. And the dreams of being drafted one day and playing outfield for the Colorado Rockies didn't quite come to fruition.

But I was at Oxfinal College, which was a great liberal arts school in Los Angeles, which introduced me to a lot of great teachers and a lot of great friends and experiences. But halfway through my time there with baseball ending and a little bit of frustration with my department and international affairs decided that it was maybe time for a change. A withdrawal from a leave of absence is probably a polite way of putting it, realistically dropped out of college halfway through junior year, which was bold and aggressive and was very fortunate to have some folks who were very supportive. of me and figuring out what was next. I was also very lucky to have an advisor who got me a unpaid position full-time with a congressman out in L.A. named Howard Berman, who's no longer serving, but an incredible leader and public servant, and his office really reflected him. And when I got there, that was where I really discovered the joy of serving others and not just worrying about my batting average or how well I was pitching. And when I was there, there was a

a great man, Fred Flores. He'd gotten out of the Marines as a staff sergeant. And at first, I don't think he was a huge fan of me, but then eventually took me under his wing. And one day, it was like, hey, have you ever thought of joining the military? And I was like, yeah, I just read this book. I think it was Unforgiving Minutes by Craig Mullaney, Road Scholar like yourself and West Point grad. And I was like, yeah, I think I'm going to be an Army Ranger. And his reaction, as you expect was borderline violence and made it very clear that that was not an acceptable answer and that the only answer is being a Marine. And once the Marine Corps propaganda begins, as you know, it doesn't end. So it was fielding almost daily calls from, you know, his buddies in recruiting stations in L.A.

and over time, started wearing me down and I started thinking more and more about this. And then very, very tragically, Fred's 18-year-old son was shot and killed while I was working there from gang violence. And Fred's impact in the office. was working heavily on anti-gang measures. And I was the only one in the office the day of the funeral and received so many phone calls from, honestly, from the mayor of Los Angeles on down, thinking, you know, sending their condolences and expressing their gratitude for what Fred had done for the city of L.A., ironically, heavily with anti-gang measures.

And he'd always talked about how the Marines had really saved him from going down that road and had made him the public servant and leader and person that he is. and it was it was taking those calls there where I was like I I want that level of impact and and that seems to me the answer seems to begin with Marines and that day I committed to to follow on the path being a Marine officer and still had a ways to go ended up transferring to George Washington and DC very thankful for my experience they're very very different from a small liberal arts school in the suburb of LA and you know my life was baseball and now my life was working in nonprofits or volunteer efforts for veterans and military families.

General trend here is not a whole lot of focus on the classroom, but always out doing something. Probably why it took me six years to get a four-year degree, but eventually we got that. But the education I then had in D.C. was probably some of the most important experiences that I've had in my life and really formative for who I was going to become as an officer and am today. Everything from working with wounded warrior families, Gold Star families,

being mentored by the veterans I was interacting with from from generals. So Lance Corporals and getting this really broad perspective across the, across really the whole DOD and the family network. And just a really amazing experience from 2009 to 2012 when I commissioned and ultimately got to TBS in 2013. You know, this feature of Marines, Marine veterans, who when a young person is thinking about joining the Marine Corps, just relentlessly and sort of uncomplicatedly saying, yeah, obviously, if you can join the military,

you need to join the Marines. I remember that for my own time. And I was kind of on the fence. I knew I wanted to join the military or join government service in some fashion. And I was kind of on the fence. And, you know, I would talk to people who've been in the Army or I talked to people who've been in the intelligence community, you know, give me these sort of measured like pros and con, you know, kind of overview. Any Marine I talked to was like, oh, you've got to join the Marines. Like, what are you even talking about? What do you even mean that you're considering other options? If anything, I think I realized in retrospect that anyone who didn't say that to me, I should be really offended. They weren't saying that to me.

But Marines, like maybe this is one of the reasons why we've done comparatively well with our recruiting is that Marines themselves are phenomenal, casual, non-professional recruiters. Right. The old saying, once a Marine, always Marine. And then you just drive around and like, look at how many Marine bumper stickers you see in comparison to the other services. And whatever goes on in Quantico and Paris Islands and San Diego. So it's a heck of an entry into just this great cult that we were all a part of. I want to ask you about your time at Quantico. You know, you return there later in your career as an instructor.

And obviously, you're teaching in a different capacity for the Marines now. But, you know, Quantico in 2013, you know, it's funny. I think back in my own time there, 2007, 2008, and it was all Iraq vets. And these guys were all just gods of war to us. And in some ways, actually were. And we were learning basically how to fight the Battle of Fallujah again. And then we went, you know, almost all of the lieutenants from my class ended up in Afghanistan where, you know, a lot of it was applicable, but a lot of it was actually quite different from what we had been studying in Quantico. The human stuff, the basic stuff obviously applied and carried through.

And they were phenomenal teachers. You probably, I'm guessing, had a world of Afghanistan vets teaching you. And I, you know, I won't put words in your mouth. But I'm curious how that worked. I'm curious, especially given your own experience now as having been an instructor there. even teaching instructors there. Think back to your time as a student. What did Quantico teach you? Yeah, I think I was I was taught by your peers. I was I was very fortunate to fall under the likes of now Lieutenant Colonel Gordon Emanuel. Yeah. Lieutenant Colonel Josh Lewis,

Lieutenant Colonel Ben O'Donnell, just the command of 3-7, the first unit that I was a part of. And these, you know, as you said, these were, you know, war gods to us. They had really done a lot. A lot of them had punched their way into Helmand and the Sengen. and had really had to figure out a lot of stuff on the fly. And so I think what they really, what always really came out was their devotion and love of their Marines. And I think a lot of them continue to surge. Because they had learned all this stuff.

They had, they'd watched their Marines do all this stuff. And, you know, just as I feel the same pride for my Marines today, the chance to go and want to talk about them and share their stories, but also make sure the next generation is worthy of leading those young men and women that you've just had such a connection with really came across strongly. And I think it was also kind of an interesting time in 2013. The deployments of Afghanistan were kind of winding down, and a lot of us were starting to panic.

We weren't going to get our chance. And that we also, I think, some new operational concepts were coming out for the Marine Corps, and we're trying to, we're in this almost shoulder season of figuring out. I think that the talks were beginning on expeditionary advanced bases, is something that, you know, has been a part of our history for a long time, but was starting to come back into the common vernacular at that point. So we were, we were working through some concepts, but I can tell you that the fundamentals were still there. We hiked everywhere. We, you were, you were walking. And there's, there's a lot you learn from, from walking out of

a field exercise after five days with a heavy pack, made heavier by all the rain that it's absorbed over the last few days. And, but through that, you really learn endurance, the personal discipline you need of, do I really need to bring this thing with me? Yeah, I'm going to feel comfortable on watch at 2 a.m. with it. But there's there's a price to pay on the on the back end. You mentioned Gordon Emanuel. I just have to say, you know, he's one of those guys who I remember being back in infantry officer's course and looking across the classroom and just thinking, man, they let me be in a class with him. Like I know I must be doing something right that I'm allowed to be in the same cohort as this guy. There were a few guys like that. He was he was definitely one of them.

That is a blast from the past. I have to be careful how I asked this question and you have to be careful how you answer it because we don't really talk about the detail. of IOC, infantry officers course. But for my money, and I've been lucky to go to some decent schools here and there for different things in my life, I think it's the best school I attended. In terms of achieving the mission it's set out to do, of creating rifle platoon commanders or infantry platoon commanders, I think it's the best school I've been to. I'm curious if you share a view like that or what you learn there in general terms,

in general terms, because neither of us wants to get in trouble with our community. right this is and i appreciate you walking me into this l-shaped english that could you know sick my career immediately i i couldn't agree more i've been fortunate to you know be at two great universities i've studied a little bit with nps i a naval postgraduate school i teach at the naval academy and like i've been able to observe a lot of instruction and nothing nothing comes close to iOC and i think that has to do with the prep and watching my buddies who then taught over there later on the preparation they go through where they are meticulous with every single word that they choose. And I think they do something that the best teacher I've ever had was in high school.

The best learning experience ever was IOC. But that teacher said something that I think is not only a fundamental of great teaching, but great authorship. And that is a great teacher, or in this case, a leader meets the student or the supporting where they're at and then chooses the words, actions, and emotions to get them to where they need to go. And I felt like that was every day at IOC. They knew exactly what lever to pull, how to pull it, usually violently, to get us to do what it is that we needed to do.

And it just never felt like they chose a wrong word. It never felt like they stammered. It was just so impressive that by the time you leave, you're like, how am I going to live up to this? You're like, you're stressing over your first formation to make sure you're going to choose every word perfectly. Everything has got to be perfect because that's all you saw for three months. the Marine Corps that you went into then, the operating forces that you went into, this is a Marine Corps that was increasingly going back to sea. You were on or involved in a bunch of muse yourself.

That's the Marine Corps, the Marine Expeditionary Unit for the non-marines amongst the listeners. Tell us about, I mean, I want to get to 2021, but tell us about that, the operating Marine Corps of the 20 teens and what you noticed and how you thought of the organization in that phase of its existence. Well, I ended up going to 3rd Battalion 7th Marines out in 29 Palms, which was a great place to land. They had just done 10 straight, I think 10 straight combat deployments between Iraq and Afghanistan since 2003. They were the most, I think, consistently deployed unit to those two AOs since, yeah, 2003. And where we then picked up was the, we were, I think, the second iteration of the special purpose Marine Air Ground Task Force Central Command Crisis Response. and OIR, OIR, Operation Inherent Resolve was just kicking off and ISIS was running rampant

throughout Syria and Iraq. And I think by the time we got to Kuwait to go stand by as a crisis response force, they had just retaken Ramadi. And so you're joining a unit with a lot of experience, a lot of my Marines have been to Afghanistan, fairly quiet deployment compared to the one before that for them. But you, you're like, it felt, I think for us a continuation of what had been going on for a 3-7. But at that point, that was, I think, a little bit isolated to 7th Marines, being 29 poems and the fact that we can train the way that we do out there, given the size of space and what the ranges allow with a lot of combined arms activity.

And the fact, that we're used operating in a desert environment, kept that rotation 7th Marine-centric till I think about 2018 or 2019. Now, when you go over there and you're waiting on a flight line in Kuwait on 30-minute strip alert for six straight months, and everyone has kind of amped you up a little bit of like, hey, we're going to go retake Ramadi. We're 3-7 had a had a lot of experience before, and the call never comes. While you're waiting for either a downpilot or an embassy reinforcement or something, you learn a lot as a junior officer leading Marines who are used to going to war and have signed up to go to war. And this is where you understand boredom as a stressor and how that's almost just as difficult as anything else. And really had to mature quickly as I learned the value of discipline and routine and how you make that work and sustain that over those months. Yeah. Yeah. I know what you mean. There was a period for us. It was really only a few months. But in 2009, the Marine Corps really stopped going to Iraq.

I was at First Battalion Six Marines, and the Afghan surge had not really, the main surge had not started yet. And we had no real plans there for about six months. And that period was by far one of the most difficult periods of my career, just as a leader of Marines. And I remember telling students of my own at the Academy later, they would ask me, you know, like, how do you show up at your platoon and do your job? Like, how are you ready to do this stuff? Like, you're going to be, you're going to be surprised. You're going to be surprised how good Quantico is and how well, Like, when you show up on day one and the company commander turns to you and says,

Lieutenant, go destroy the enemy at one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. Like, you will, you will set off with some degree, some earned degree of confidence that you know how to do that. But here's what you won't feel confident about. Like, have you ever bailed anyone out of jail? Have you ever had to offer counseling, informal counseling to a young man who doesn't know where his wife and kid are because they've been kicked out of base housing for, well, just for, well, just, I'll just say here for illicit activities. Like, no, I'm guessing you haven't. I certainly hadn't. And I had to learn that on the job.

And that was incredibly stressful. Yeah, I was very fortunate to grow up in a very close family. We never, you know, were wanting for anything. And, you know, a lot of your Marines don't necessarily have that background. A lot of them joined because they are looking for a family for their first time in their lives. And I remember walking around post, we were at ITX. It was probably a Mojavey bite for her cax when you went on through. But it's your big readiness exercise before you get out the door.

And we're at one of the thabs. And we're up on post rehearsing all the actions that go on when you're in a deliberate defense. And I go up to one of my Marines. And I was like, I'm pretty sure I'm now supposed to ask him if he's called home recently. Like that seems, you know, that's what I read in the book. I'm, you know, hey, Lance Warble, have you called home recently? And responds, I really call home, sir. And I had no idea how to respond to that.

Yeah. Awkward silence. Very well then. You're doing a great job. And over time, you realize, like, if you didn't want to talk about it, you wouldn't have brought it off. And you realize that Marines will always give you a little bit of something, a little bit of a hint in hopes that you will ask.

And once you get over the awkwardness and you understand that they do, that they do trust you. You know, they, even if they just met you, look, you're their platoon commander, unless you did something crazy like a patent speech on day one, you're probably, you're probably, probably doing okay. And over time, I've regretted, you know, not pulling the threat of not asking, hey, why? You know, why? Tell me more about that. And that's something I try to tell my midshipman here and students at the basic school of Marines are looking for leadership. I know you're, I know they're almost the same age and trying to mentor somebody that's one year younger. They're maybe even older than you.

They want it. They're, they expect it. And a lot of times, they're more in awe of you than you realize. I know you're in awe of them, but they're in awe of you too. And that's, that credit to what goes on in Quantico. It's a pretty, it's a pretty special place. You know, it cuts both ways with Marines because there really is no set stereotype of family background. You definitely have kids, as you described, from rougher backgrounds. And then you have kids who, you know, like, we're from perfectly functional homes and, you know, high school football stars and they're doing their time in the Corps before they go to college. And you get both kinds. And one of the most surreal moments of just call it pastoral care for lack of a better phrase that I had. It was actually with the other category. I'm sitting in my

office. Sorry, not the company office. I'm sitting in my desk and the company office as a platoon commander. And my phone rings. And it's one of my Marines mothers. She had somehow gotten my number. And she's telling me this tale about her son. I'm sorry to this Marine if he's listening. She's telling me this tale about her son who's taken up with this girl that she doesn't like and and it's tearing the family apart and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I'm just listening. I'm just listening. to this lady. And I have to tell her when she sort of gets done with her request for me to intervene in these issues, I said, man, you know, I didn't say this, but this is the force of my comus. Man, like, this is not high school. Like, your son is a grown man. He's a United States

Marine. Out of the kindness of my heart, I will tell, I think I did say this. I will tell you, he's a good Marine. He's, he's here. He's happy. He's healthy as best as I can tell. He's doing a good job as a Marine that I can affirmatively tell you. And I cannot help you with these other issues. I just, this is, he's an adult. And you're calling his, his, his like, bosses, boss. Like, you can't. I don't think I said you can't do that. But that was definitely the upshot. I was just, I was so stunned. So you get it, it's from both sides. Like, you know, the helicopter mom who really thought that her grown, and I, as, as memory serves this young man, went on to marry this girl. And I, it was perfectly happy, nice family. I felt bad for the mom. It was crazy.

It's like, you just can't predict. You can't predict what's going to come your way. There's a great technique. You know, and that same, turning that on its head, my first, first sergeant, Sergeant Major Cosmo, incredible Marine. He fit everything I'd ever hope to have in a first Army reading the books. Like, it was this man. And I'll never forget, one of our Marines, I think, got busted for stealing something that was like a couple bucks from the PX. And it's amazing how good the PX is at catching Marines stealing.

It's probably our most efficient system in the Marine Corps. And he made him, I watched him, made him make him dial his dad and tell him what he had done. And I think when I had to go pick up my first Marine from jail, they were in a melee launched into an apology. And it was like, hey, does you probably know where you are right now? Colin. Okay, now your girlfriend. And it's effective. And it's more effective than anything you can say.

So I want to, so you went from your first rotation back to Quantico and then back out into the fleet. I may be skipping over things here. but you became, you took probably what I think is generally acknowledged to be one of the best jobs in the Marine Corps, which company commander, I've always thought squad leader and company commander are the two best jobs. And you were commander of company G2, one, already a storied company and a story battalion that went on to add another chapter to Marine Corps history with your deployment to Kabul in 2021. That came, I think as what was going on there kind of came to the country, perhaps it shouldn't have as a surprise. But you were often. doing other things. What was 2-1 off doing or golf, sorry, not Gulf, Ghost Company, 2-1? What were you off doing when the call to go to Afghanistan came? We were, so we, I did my third special purpose MAGTAF crisis response in Central Command, and I knew what that was going to be after a couple rodeos on that before. And so we were, we were lucky this time to go to Jordan. I had done, I had done Kuwait and

waiting on the fly line and now we got to go to Jordan, which was a security mission in itself, but also a ton of training and a ton of opportunity. And to go back to Lieutenant Colonel Emmanuel, who was brought up earlier and you talk about incredible mentorship and leadership, he was my neighbor at this point in California, and I'm sitting around telling them that, hey, we're going to go to Jordan. I can't wait. I'm going to be able to train this company like we haven't been able to because COVID has really

limited our ability to get out there and really get after it. And it also sounds like some restrictions will open up and I'll get the Marines to the Dead Sea and to Petra and give them. the adventure that they signed up to really do. And he's like, Jeff, that's great. I'm so happy for you. And, but are they prepared for the most violent, chaotic experience they could possibly face? It was, well, yeah, sure, I trend them, right? But hey, point taking. And he went on and told the story, I think very similar to yours of they were supposed to go to Oki. Him as a platoon commander. They're supposed to go to Oki. And then a few months before they're set, the plans change. And they go to

Afghanistan. They have a very, very kinetic deployment as a result. And that talk right there reminded me about keeping the main thing, the main thing. Never far from my mind as a company commander. But that was very much in my mind as I spoke to the company for a final time up at the crosses in Hornow, which overlooks where the regiment is and is where we honor those who have fallen previously within First Marine Regiment. And that was our final thing we did before we went into two weeks of quarantine before we left. And it's like, fellas, Every single week we're going to train and the standard's always going to go up. And the standard's not going to stop going up until we get home.

And we're going to be assuming we're going to be called the next day, every day, until our feet are back in California. So we're over in Jordan. We had a lot of work to catch up, I think. We had a lot of company turnover in the workup. Our first sergeant only gotten on deck six weeks before our ad bond had taken off. We'd stood up a fourth platoon with a new platoon commander, a platoon sergeant. And we really need to go some fundamentals of developing a team. And we work diligently from back from, you know, basic skills, mastering our equipment to getting up through a very robust squad package at this great training area that we had in Southern Jordan.

So when you weren't standing post, if I wasn't dragging you through the dirt in the training area in the backyard, as we called it, we were very fortunate to be able to allow our sergeants to go lead their squads out to the Dead Sea or Petra. And as I was told later on from my company, Gunney, that was probably one of the better decisions I made as the company commander was allowing the sergeants to feel trusted to take their guys out in a Middle Eastern country, which, as you know, it's a big deal for us. It doesn't always get authorized. I trusted to go take them to these places and then go have a meal out in this beautiful town called Akaba outside of our base and then come back. And if you talk with NCOs in the Marine Corps, they will never forget the day that they are first given trust, especially if they feel like they don't quite. deserve it yet. And then it's like the first day of the rest of their career and things really take off. And so the trust we were able to build at this base, and we were also very fortunate that was just us there. There was another communications unit. They were doing something in a training unit.

But for the most part, I was the OIC of the base. And when you don't have 14 flag pulls around you, you can really work without distraction. Not that you don't need your leadership, but we understand that some things can get in the way. And so we had five months of building an immense amount of trust throughout the company, squad level, platoon, through company leadership, because we were always together. And we were having this very classic Marine Corps training experience where we weren't limited by a lack of ammunition or transportation. We could walk to all the ranges.

We somehow found the cheat code to get all the 7-6-2 that was available for the SP MAG staff and shoot out there. We got a train at a special operations training center in Amman. And, you know, for Marines who had been cooped up from COVID, this was a blast. And the thing that never happens happened. And we got new stuff. No one had ever lived in these hooches. No one had ever eaten in this chow hall.

And I just never thought that was real. I didn't think you could experience getting new things in the Marine Corps. And we were fortunate to have that. So quality of life was very high. And as a result, we became a very, very close family. And it remained so today. And I really credit our success that we'll have later on operationally with that time in Jordan. So how did you get the call?

How did you find out that actually the other thing that never happens? I mean, it's not that it never happens, but it happens rarely enough that it would be reasonable to think that Marines in these special task forces might assume it never happens. But actually, it happened. There was an emergency and you got the call. How to come in? So the call, and I think we're recording here on August 15th, so about four years from a few days ago, we were up in this King Abdullah Special Operations Training Center in Amon where one of my platoons who had just come off this rotation with a,

they were a trailer platoon for certain missions going on, and they had just returned to Austin Jordan from wherever they were in the Italy's doing their doing their thing. And that night where my first sergeant I drove up there to join them, as soon as we got to our little room, we were staying, I got a text from our company Gunny saying, hey, sir, there are a lot of items in the news right now, I think was his phrase. And he sends me a tweet from Dan Lamoth of the Washington Post, who tweets out to 1 and 1 8 are going in. So that was the first, we'll call indication and warning that we were going. Is that in the standard Marine Corps operating procedure that you see that the Washington Post reporter's tweet and that serves as the warning order? I think with the way things are going after

2020, how things get out. So yeah, that was a little non-stander, shall we say. So I texted another company commander who was in charge of the actual crisis response company who was already on a ready alert. And I was like, hey, do I need to drive back to my base and get on the red line or the super phone, the secret phone? He was like, yeah, I would do that in the morning. So go out in the morning, see my Marines. We can't get a bus to them. And I was like, gentlemen, can't tell you exactly what's about to happen, but I need you to train really hard today because this is probably the last time you're going to be able to train before you're going on it. And like good Marines, you watch them just click on. And they already would have

trained hard, but you can just see the focus and the intensity go on up. So we drove on back, get on the call, we get placed on. We were already on 96-hour tether. And then we were told they were going to, you know, execute your, your preparation as the alternate crisis response force. We had an SOP for what is we're going to bring, how it is we're going to bring folks. And then over the next four days, a lot of shifting word on how much of the company is actually going to be able to make it. How much, like, what should we be bringing with us? Because, yeah, you're going into a non-combatten evacuation operation while surrounded by the Taliban in a semi-permissive environment at this point. And you're wondering, hey, am I, should I be bringing an extra food and

water or am I saving this for 762 machine gun ammo and mortar rounds in case we have to fight our way out of that because we weren't you know at that point you're really sure what what this thing's going to be so for 96 hours we we prepped got the got the green light to go board plane and jordan then flew out to kuid and almost kind of like some world war two stories where you've got different units elbowing themselves like elbowing each other off the planes or or cars to get to the front you see a lot of the I think it was the 82nd Airborne that was next to us there. And we're all kind of jockeying for flights because you got the call. Like you don't want to miss the thing.

And look, we had a very smooth talking gunnery sergeant who made sure we got flight. I don't know if that was really the case, but it's the story I choose to tell myself on that. And then our first flight got canceled one night. And then by the evening of the 18th, myself and three of my platoons and the rest of the company headquarters flew in, landing early on the morning of the 19th.

So I know what it's like to fly into Afghanistan and a country where there's a war going on. I don't know what it's like to fly into an Afghanistan where the Taliban controls the country. And you were flying into, you know, the last patch of American control. Just describe what it's like to touch down. What was going on? Yeah. So to your kind of address the main point you brought there of like, hey, we're about to go fly into a Taliban controlled space.

I think a significant moment that while we were waiting in Kuwait that occurred was I kind of drove away to get the final warning order before we flew in, knowing that would change five times before I landed. And you know, you're getting briefed. Like you're going through your standard order and you go through situation, you go enemy, you don't brief Taliban, ISIS gets briefed. You get to friendly and you get to adjacent. And Jason, they briefed Taliban. And it's a really kind of surreal moment where like, okay, you were tasked to work with the Taliban. And so I deliver the warning order to my guys over the phone landline. So Nazi in my face.

And I've got my squad leaders and platoon sergeants. I very experienced platoon sergeants. All of them had fought in Afghanistan. And I've got to tell them as I go through this adjacent Taliban. And I let that sink in. And it's like I say again, adjacent Taliban. And on the other end of the line, as I was told later, a lot of expletives from the platoon sergeants, a lot of strong, strong reaction, as you can imagine.

But then one of them said, and I'll always, I just will always appreciate being told this and hearing about this was like, hey, look, we've always trusted the skipper. We're going to trust them now. And, and, you know, they set their jaw and it was time to go. And that level of trust is, you know, we're going into something, as you said, it's very, very unique. And, you know, we've never, we've conducted a lot of neos, but none really under necessarily these conditions. And so whenever you're going into something and maybe it's novel in a sense, or a little under resource or whatever it's going to be. If you have trust, you can get through it. You can get through a lot if you've got that word present within your unit. Your story also emphasizes something that I don't know how well people not in the military or not necessarily even the Marine Corps would appreciate. But of course, you know, they're determining whether or not they're comfortable based on their trust in you as though you, no offense.

Then Captain Ball have any control over most of this. But it just emphasizes that for the Marine, Lance corporal or corporal, the Marine, the company is their world. Like, that's their universe. And within the company, you know, first squad, second platoon has a reputation that's different from second squad, second platoon. And there's this whole universe of reputations and personalities. And the company is this like organic thing.

And the company commander is that the king or God or paramount leader, dear leader of that thing. And God, if you're talking to the battalion command. or the regimental commander as a Marine, you're probably either about to get a very serious decoration for, for valor or, you know, going to jail or probably the two reasons.

You know, it's just, it is a hermetic world. And I don't know outside of the Marines or outside of the military, how much people, and this is only about 100 Marines, 100 and what, 20, 30 Marines? We were about 180,

but everything you said, but doubly so, because of COVID, our company was isolated from the rest of the battalion for most of the workup. There wasn't enough room in, in Flores where or Horno. So we had to move down to Flores where first LAR is and recon. So we were, we were down there and then we were in Jordan away from the rest of the battalion. So it really was

a strong sense of company identity. And as much as I would like to believe everything you said about the importance of the company commander, you know, there are some other critical members in there that really came together. And we were gapped at first sergeant for a long time, which is very, very painful. Everyone wants to be upset with having a first sergeant because they're always telling you to correct yourself and dag on this and that. But then you don't have one.

You're like, yeah, I want to go back to having one. And we were blessed to get first sergeant, now Sergeant Major Ricardo Lamele. And as soon as he showed up, it was like everything came together. I, you know, for the things that I struggled to communicate to the company, whether it was intent or vision or this or that, that man, you know, I think of the key and peel sketch, like the Obama anger translator. Well, like, here's the company commander translator.

You know, like go walk off and first sergeant was going to make sure that everything was understood. And he'd come from the wing. I think he has a license plate that says POG 1775, and which earns him a lot of respect. Yeah, totally. You got to vote it. Yeah, right? And he shows up day one.

And he tells the Marine, like, I'm not trying to be a grunt. And I'm not trying to be the grunt to tell you what to do. I have the experiences I have. I'm here to make you a better Marine and support you as a person. and all the Marines, like that was it. That was the magic. He was also a very accomplished fighter. He had like seven red tabs on his martial arts belt.

And I think when he started running martial arts classes and word got around that like, don't fight first sergeant, that just added to the whole mystic and aura. But he really, he made me a far better officer and a far better person. And it was also had an incredible company gunnery sergeant that just had a classic gunny who, like you need something. It's going to show up. Like don't ask questions. like Gunny's going to get it for you and make it happen.

And then an ex-o who was just a machine like work ethic grind. So I could go do commander things, whatever those are, coupled with amazing platoon commanders and platoon sergeants who just loved their Marines with incredible character. And I don't say it often because I think it's a bit dusty and overused, but our NCOs were the backbone of the company. The most consistent bill it held in our, the most, the most consistency we had with all our personnel were our squad leaders and our sergeants.

And their work was incredible. And they built small families on those squads. And we made them kind of a main influencer. And by investing in them and trusting them and making them special, the company really went to the next level. So this organism, this family, this company, G, gets off the plane in the middle of the night. How do you find out what your job is? What is your job at Kabul International Airport? So the plan briefed was where we were going to establish kind of the southern perimeter along the flight line, essentially in a linear defense, just get online and keep people from crossing to the north side of the airfield. So if my memory is correct, the Taliban had the south side, and we were on the north side as coalition forces. By the time we land, that changed four times and was told, hey, in the morning, go down to this place called the Abbey Gates and pretty much just take control and make it better.

So we went down there and ironically when we were in Jordan, right, like classic marine orders, just go make it better. Take control and make it better. Yeah. I had an instructor, I'm pretty sure it was, well, I shouldn't say that. I had an instructor, it's a good story. I had an instructor at IOC told us that he once received orders in Iraq to go secure a particular intersection in order to establish democracy. So at least it was slightly more practical. You had more room to maneuver than he did. Yeah, I think ours was in order to save as many people as possible. Wow. But we went down there. When we were in Jordan, we had a British era. unit come out and train with us for two weeks. It was a really special situation where we got trained alongside. I think it was third para, one of their companies. And they also happened to be there while we had a shared national holiday Independence Day. So we got to celebrate that. We were more excited about those facilities that they were. But going back to trust, like we got to work side by side. And so there was a level of trust and we really enjoyed each other's company. And we did combine

live fire attacks with them. And like, that's huge. So for us to show up then at Abby, gate and they're the ones controlling the gate and then to go side by side of them. I mean, you know, Hollywood couldn't write a better story on on that one there. So to go down there, see their company commander Chris and be like, hey man, I was wondering if I was going to see you. And he's like, I was thinking the same thing. Okay, how do we, how do we figure this out? So went, went down there and you show up and you look on the other, like there's a literal gate and it's closed. And you look on the other side and it is this sea of people as far back as the eye can see and it looks like a zombie apocalypse. Yeah. Well, talk about, talk about the,

you say there's a physical gate. I wonder if you know why it's called the abbey gate. And then on the other side of it, you've got this massive crowd. Say a bit more about the physical terrain. Like, I know there's, there's a canal, there's building. Just like paint, paint us a bit of a picture of the stage here. So it's about the south is kind of the southeast corner of the, of the airport. And so you go down this, this long road, you passed some other gates, he passed Victor 1A, we just come in off the Marine Expeditionary Unit. They're doing incredible work. Elements of 2-1 were already on deck, and Echo Company was clear in the runway,

and can't say enough great things about them. And half the Fox Company got in, led by their XO and First Sergeant, very, very impressive what they did. And then Weapons Company, as Independent Platoons, was supporting everyone. It was such an incredible team effort. So everyone's kind of stretched along the perimeter performing different jobs, either directly facilitating screening operations to get folks in or supporting the units kind of at the forward line of troops. So as you go down, we have some place that was called the inner gate, which you pass through. And that's kind of where the State Department was when they were present.

And then we went a little bit further to what was called the middle gate. And that was closed and sealed. Eventually, we would establish something called the Chevron that was a little further down the road. And once you passed the middle gate, and this is all part of the Abbey Gate area, off to your left, the blast walls ended. And you now had this canal that opened up, and it cut back along those blast walls to a marketplace, heading up kind of more towards the northern part of the airfield. And then that canal then stopped at a place called the Barron Hotel. And that's important to know because in the Barron Hotel was the British headquarters.

and they were executing their screening operations in there. It was this like fortified compound that was owned by a retired Marine Sergeant Major who was still there with a with a screaming high and tight. Because I don't think you're allowed to get rid of that. And this gentleman was a character. You know, we're in the middle of maybe we'll have time for it. We get to some negotiations with the Taliban and like that guy's in the room with you. And when we flew out of Kabul, he was on the plane sitting next to me. But he was facilitating a lot of this.

at his hotel that he had owned for years and was about to give up. And the problem was, though, that this was essentially outside of the airport. And the little barricade that they had sent up, which wasn't going to do anything, is now been overrun. So they are detached and they are surrounded by this crowd. And they're slowly able to bring forces in to the airport using some vehicles, but not at a tempo that is going to be sustainable or that's going to work. So where we are in the middle gate, we're staring out. We have a canal to our left, down this, road, see the Barron Hotel about 200 or so meters. And in between us and the Barron Hotel are thousands and thousands of people. And a little bit further is a Taliban checkpoint. And our

first task is going to be clearing that area. That sounds like a challenge. It was. And I think the first attempt was to push out some Marines to attempt to go make contact over there right when we arrived. And at that point, with the crowd pressing in, there's a loss of control of the gate. And so we almost got overrun for, I think, the third time in the operation. If that had happened at that point, it would have been pretty devastating. So there was really no choice, but, hey, we've got to plug the hole. So right as my first platoon is arriving, they're seeing me say, hey, get online and plug the gate as to go support Fox Company and the Brits who are getting a little bit overwhelmed because

against thousands of people. And we can't get the gate shut because of all the bodies in the way. And you want to talk about trust, you know, the Marines were given task and purpose. there's there's always a why and I told my guys I will always give you the why but there's going to be a moment that comes where I'm going to I'm not going to have time and that moment it arrived and for all the work that we had done to build up the goodwill to be able to you know trust up and down the chain to be able to give that kind of order it was it was time to make a withdrawal so told first pursuit galiline plug the hole and these Marines just heroically charge into this crowd having just

arrived and then are in essentially a fight for their lives for the next 45 minutes trying to push the crowd back. Absolute miracle that no Marines were killed or severely injured. Many times were knocked to the ground. A lot of my Marines will tell you that they thought that was going to be it out there. And we're somehow able to separate ourselves from the crowd, get them back, establish a little bit of a foothold. And then that night, as I'm talking with the British company commander, and we're discussing, all right, hey, when are we going to do this clear for good to get to the hotel? Sun's going down. and we're like, I don't, I don't think I really want to clear this with tear gas and a gas mask on and NBGs in the middle of the night. And like, I don't want to see people get hurt. And it was at that

moment there, get a call over the radio. Hey, go six. This is, this is gun smoke. That's our battalions call sign. Clear to the Barron Hotel time now. And you're like, negative conditions are not set. We're going to wait till dawn. And negative, say again, you will clear to the, to the barren hotel time now. And if you, if you're going to ask your Marines to trust you, then you got to do the same with your higher headquarters. And I think that was my opso on the other line. And our opso, just absolute phenomenal Marine and leader, follow that guy anywhere. So that same platoon that was nearly overrun, gets online with the Britson support and a couple of our other companies and Fox company, link arms. And we end up pushing the crowd back over the next eight hours tiptoe and forward,

just talking to them. And we moved 200 meters. And by sunup, we've got a blocking obstacle in place to really begin the evacuation operations we need to, but then also reconnect our lines with the Brits. And the discipline and the professionalism of the Lance Corporal at the forward line with his weapon flung behind him, approaching the Taliban, saying, Sirman, please back up to the same crowd that nearly killed him earlier that day. Sirman, please back up, just gently moving forward. It was remarkable. I've got goosebumps just thinking about it. And I just could not have been more proud of them. And it was almost difficult at times walking around and just saying, good job, Marine,

without choking up. Because you, it was never lost on me what was, what was really going on and how historical this whole thing was. And I don't think it necessarily hit them yet. They were just trying to surf the chaos. But the compassion and the discipline was, was just unbelievable. From all the junior enlisted out there, I was just, it's something we should really talk more about and be more proud of what a lot of young Americans.

Well, just to make explicit what I take to be implicit in a lot of what you just said, and obviously you'll correct my language if it's not quite accurate. But, you know, these Marines who are out there facing down the crowd, you know, you presume most of these people are just desperate, right? And they're just desperate to get the hell out. They're kind of trapped in there, too, because you've got a whole urban terrain around them. If they're in the front of the crowd, they can't really turn around and walk away easily.

They've got a crowd pressing on them from behind. So one, you're running the risk the whole time that you're just going to get beaten up. maybe worse, by people who are just desperate, by a desperate mob. Like that's the principal threat. But of course, as, you know, dramatically proved the case later, if there's just one person in there with ill intent, you're completely exposed the whole time. And all these guys are out there doing what is,

what in effect really did prove to be, but was, was, you know, potentially so the entire time, just these acts of incredible bravery, just completely exposed, completely exposed. And at the same time, the demand of them is to not actually just fight, which they can all do. But to be compassionate and restrained, it is.

I'm basically just agreeing with you. The story you're telling is absolutely remarkable. But not a lot of Marines have actually been asked that much. I mean, they've been asked other incredible things. But of this particular kind, this, I'm sure it's not unique, but it's still incredible. Yeah, it was across again. I'm very proud of my company. I talked about them all day.

And we did not do this alone. This was the rest of up to one and one aid and the army that was there too. And it was very much a combined joint operation at the Abigate and working with a lot of foreign partners and the Brits. I had never seen such unity of effort and cooperation. It was really, it was really remarkable. And what I kind of walked away from with there is besides how crucial trust is, but also how adaptable and resilient human beings are, not just within us, but also the folks trying to get out. Because you're right, they are very desperate. But that night, we recognized early on when we were, that ill-fated clear earlier in the day,

you're shoving people into people and there's just this wall of them, right? And we ultimately let some in to be able to relieve pressure and solve it. That's a longer story. But for that evening, I got on top of a Jersey barrier and it came up this plan and credit our interpreter that we had with us and some leadership from Fox Company and some others to, pulled this all together, it was like, hey, we just need to talk to them. Most of these people speak English. They've been working with us for years. They want to work with us. They know how we operate. And I looked at the interpreter and I said, hey, get up there or like talk to them. Tell them, like, we're going to start moving in 30 minutes. We need them all to move back 200 meters.

And this is, and we need them to pass that word all the way back through these thousands of people. And he was like, sure, absolutely, sir, as soon as you do it yourself. I was like, okay. All right. and climb on a Jersey barrier and I introduced myself to the crowd. My name's Jeff. We are here to help, but you got to help us help you here. And we're going to, by dawn, we're going to get this thing moving. But we all have to walk back. And that's very hard for them because we are now pushing them into a Taliban checkpoint. And that's ultimately where our Marines stop. And so not only are they showing discipline and compassion with these people, they are now, as soon as we stop, we are meters away from, you know, a reinforced Taliban checkpoint.

And we're staring at each other. And my Marines have been training to kill them for years. And they, I believe, they've been doing the same for us. So for them to have the restraint to keep a cool head throughout all of that so we can get done what we need to do, again, just immensely impressive. So you mentioned liaison directly with the Taliban. I want to, I wanted to tell us about that. And also just say a word, if you will, on who is meant to get through?

You know, how on earth do you determine who gets one of these only a handful of seats on a plane compared to the masses of people who are there? So I think this was one of the more frustrating parts of the operation was that who could come in was kind of an ever-changing game. And I think when we began, there was five different types of documents they could show us, whether it was a special issue visa, an actual blue passports, a green card, a embassy, employee ID. And I think something else. And there was a lot of problems with a special issue of visa program. I think that's been fairly well documented at this point. But, you know, they're handing you a piece of paper that I think at that point, all of Kabul had photocopied and passed to one another.

That's entirely in either Pashto or Dari. And I can't read that. So then they're showing you cell phone and you're like, okay, this is a very slow, arduous process as a Marine trying to figure out, is this a legit document or not? And at times different requirements came down of we're only going to accept this or we're only going to accept that or, you know, we're not even allowing anyone in right now because the backlog is so tough. So that, I think, was was tough on a lot of us of to be told, all right, hey, only these documents for and then an hour later be told, okay, no, these documents too. And you're like, well, I just turned away a family with that document. And it's, that's heartbreaking.

and, you know, there were moments where, you know, it was another country came to me and they're like, hey, we don't have any more seats on our plane and your country's not going to take them. And that family over there, we don't have room for them and they're not coming. And they're within our lines. They're not necessarily screened yet, but they're within our lines. And I've got to go walk over and look at the head of the household with his 20 relatives behind them and look them in the eye and say, hey, sir, this is going to be hard to hear. But you're not coming in. And no matter what you tell me, no matter what you say and what you show me, that is not going to change.

And I'm going to give you 30 minutes to figure out what it is you're going to do next for your family. And then I'm going to have my Marines come over and remove you if you aren't gone by then. And you watch every human emotion you can imagine sweep over this man's face in 30 seconds. And until they finally land on acceptance. And then 15 minutes later, they were gone. and you don't know what's next for them. It was hard to kick people out that you had spent time with. I think that was a massive burden we put on our junior Marines

was that they are caring for these people in our lines. And then something happens. They don't have the right paperwork. And now they're being told, hey, you've got to squirt them out. That's hard. That's really, really hard. And that's a burden we asked them to bear. And again, they handled it like true professionals.

but that's not easy. That's not easy to do. And where is the Taliban and all this? What's your level of communication with them? So they, I mean, throughout our days working there, at moments, they are shoulder to shoulder with us. They are, yeah, I've got a photo of one of my Marines literally touching a Taliban shoulder, Taliban fighter's shoulder and pointing and telling him, hey, we need that person to come

on it or that person needs to go. like that is the level of engagement that's going on. And back to adaptability and resilience, you realize the immensity of this problem. In many ways, we could not have done what we had done without the Taliban coordination. And then there was moments where they were getting very frustrated with political conversation having back here in the U.S.

about potentially extending the August 31 timeline. And on that day, to let their frustration be known, they disappeared for a little bit. And they said, hey, good luck with this on your, room. And that was a really, that was a really hard day trying to control the crowd without their, their presence. So August the 26th rolls around. I know we're coming up on the anniversary of that. I know from personal experience that anniversaries can be hard. What is, what is the plan for the 26? Like, what are you guys trying to accomplish as that day goes on? The plan for the 26 is we,

we know we're wrapping up. And that timeline had shifted a few times. And so really our intent was, how many people can we say before we got to stop letting them in? And I think at 18, 100 is when we were going to stop pulling people from the canal in order to then back clear everybody that was in our lines by the time we were going to withdraw by like one in the morning. And around one of the morning, if we had gotten that far, the Brits would have withdrawn from the Barron Hotel because they would have wrapped up their operations. And we were going to hold in place our position until they had fallen through our lines. And then after they fell in, I believe the Taliban was going to replace us kind of shoulder to

shoulder and they were then owned the outside of the airport and the 82nd was going to take over the gate because they were going to take over the whole exterior perimeter to allow everyone else to withdraw over the next couple days. So the plan was how many people can we pull in before 1800 and then as we all know I think it was about 536 1736 that afternoon our position was attacked by a suicide bomber which the Marines there just a talk about them again. I talk about them all day. The reaction to, I think our company was around a 20% casualty rate just by the nature of how packed in we were to like manage these lines that were getting increasingly desperate and chaotic and required additional security so we weren't

going to get overrun because the crowd was figuring out we were wrapping up shop. And as you can imagine if you're like, this is my only chance, then I'm going to do whatever it takes. And we were watching them crush each other to death, trying to get into our lines. And I think right before we got hit, a couple of my Marines dove into the crowd to pull out a woman and our child were at risk of being killed. And we're treating them in the lines when, you know, because we had a woman and a child that were hurt, a few other Marines rushed up to go assist. The female engagement team, Nicole G and Johani Rosario will give their lives attempting to care for these people. My doc, Max, and Soviak, will give his life rushing forward to go because he heard Cormin up.

And like throughout our history, no Corman ignores the phrase Cormin up. And for having to deal with a significant mass casualty of obviously 13 U.S. service members, 170 plus Afghans, not to mention all of the wounded in the area in a fairly compact space, to see Marines rush forward. And I think we had all of our casualties to the next echelon of care within under 30 minutes of the blast, and that included a 17-minute drive to the Roll 2 facility. And our first one there, I think, was there, like 17, 18 minutes after the blast. He had taken shrapnel through the jaw and the neck.

Miracle he survived and proud to report that young man's actually off to go be a green beret next. Oh, wow. Made a heck of a recovery. He kept down, but, you know, he'll be, he'll be fun. But the trainee of our corpsman, our senior line, Matthew Garcia, It was just incredible. I think he put his hands on every single casualty there performing incredible procedures,

and we probably saved more than we should have. And for those we lost, I think the report said there was nothing we could have done medically to treat them. But the Marines trained relentlessly on casualty evacuation and medical procedures, and they performed magnificently. It was really something to behold.

And when you say there's nothing to be done, I mean, just the nature of your mission, and the chaos that your company and the other troops who have been put there were amidst. I mean, this was sort of quite literally unavoidable in a tactical perspective. Somebody determined enough on the other side was going to be able to do something like this

and they did. What do you remember personally? Like, where were you standing? Are you knocked off your feet? Just tell, like, experientially, what was it like for Jeff Ball? Yeah, I was in the canal checking out of my guys at that point. I was fairly close to the black.

and I think that the impact was significant enough that it actually took me months to realize that I'd been rattled pretty good. The other thing that really complicated things was that we had CS canisters on our chest and that was kind of our final protective line. Like if we were to get overrun, pop gas, get back to the gate,

we'll sort it out afterwards to give us some buffer. And the shrapnel had ripped open those gas canisters. And so I remember seeing a flash and hearing a pop, but not a boom and just being confused, I was like, that didn't, it sounded almost like a fake R-D simulator. And you hear all the screaming and you're like, I remember thinking like, oh, that must have been the bomb. And try and then say, hey, get security, trying to focus, I'm able to really do so. And then getting very overwhelmed by the gas.

I'm very thankful for one of my platoon commanders and platoon sergeants, Matt Hoey and Cody Hadden for pulling me out. And I remember just essentially incapacitated at this point and just hearing like, sir, sure, I got you. and the relief that comes, you know, from that. And much to the credit of him and another platoon commander, Jack Nance, them rushing forward knowing their company commander is down hard for a moment. I mean, that's what they're trying to. Go all the way back to IOC and think about the Iron Mike statue in front of Heywood Hall there at TBS and what they see day one of take control, take command.

And that's what they did. And phenomenal EXO who ran the CCP and did that. And on top of many other officers and staff, NCOs from the other companies to responded and, you know, as maybe you've experienced in your life, you shake it off, the adrenaline hits and then you feel like you can do anything. And then you start sorting through, getting, you know, more medical resources. Do we have security? Do we have accountability? Okay, we got what we need. Probably time for us to pull back and another company to step forward. And I think Echo Company took over the line for us after that. But again, couldn't, couldn't be more

proud of my Marines and how they responded and showed for all you said earlier about the need of a company commander. They proved right there that you don't, you don't need one. They can, they can handle it just fine. What would you say? I mean, you must be asked this frequently given that you're in a training or an education environment now. So I apologize for, for hitting you again with it. But, you know, you've got young officers hanging on your every word here. What, it's hard to, I mean, in a way, the less, I'm going to ask you what lessons, you know, did you learn and what would you tell them about what you faced there, both in this immediate incident, but also more broadly. But, you know, in some ways you've just said a lot, which is, you know, the training was good and it was intense and it

went into place. Because what happened to you is, I mean, it was just not, I can't, I cannot conceive putting myself in your shoes of anything really that could have been done to prevent it. What, what lessons did you learn? What would you tell officers or student officers based on the experience that you had as a company commander here? So at the Naval Academy, I teach ethics. a lot of that during the week, we go through case studies, and a lot of them are dilemmas. And the thing about a dilemma is there's no good choice. And we've heard that coming up of, you know, between a rock and a hard place, put the enemy in the horns of a dilemma, right?

Like I think that's said a thousand times in Mitchell Hall at IOC. But you've also got to recognize that you can, too, be placed in a dilemma. And our dilemma was, okay, am I trying to protect my Marines as much as possible, or am I trying to save as many people as possible. And there's going to be a trade-off. Like we had to hold the line. We had to hold the line so we didn't lose the Brits. We had to be out there. We had to be exposed. And there isn't a whole lot you could do your best, but this is where you have to understand duty and the importance of the mission and what you were tasked to do. And again, I'll keep going back to it. Trust. And I've asked my Marines afterwards. I was like, were you, at what points

were you, did you not understand, were you angry? Were you frustrated? with your leadership. And I remember when my squad was going to like, sir, we just, we, we knew that you guys always looked out for our best interests. We knew we were going to be okay. We knew we'd be all right because our leadership always looked out for us. And I think very, so you can ask your Marines to do a lot. And what you're doing as a commander, as an officer, especially as a junior officer, is every single day you're showing up and you're depositing into the bank of trust, knowing at some point you're going to have to make a withdrawal. Your Marine shows up to give you a check.

It's not a blank check because it's their name on it. It's their life. It's an infinite amount of money, but it is not blank. And so you know at some point you may have to go cash that check to get the mission done. And you do everything you can to be ready to make sure you don't cash that check. But there's some things you just can't control. The enemy gets a vote. So some ways to build trust that I really stress to them is you've got to explain the why.

you have to make sure the why is understood. And if they don't understand the why of something happening, then it should bother you. Like, you shouldn't go to sleep at night if you know some Marines don't get it. Don't take the approach of, oh, one day they'll understand. No, you need them to understand now. Because if not, you're not operating as efficiently as possible or as effectively as possible. And it would keep me up at night if my Marines didn't understand what was going on.

And the next day I'd go back and have the conversation as many times as possible. So when the moment comes and you've got to plug the hole, and you say, just get in there. Where the moment comes, and you say, hey, hold the line. They're going to do it because they know that you have done everything you can't.

And the next side of that is compassion. And I think we confuse what the word compassion means. If you go back to its original definition, it means to suffer alongside. So it is really something when you were going out there on every training run with them,

when you're walking the lines at night, like when you were with them doing the thing and showing that you're not taking any luxuries, yourself and you're with them. That that is compassion and it's suffering alongside of them. And that is before you go on in, while it's all going on, and then afterwards too. And afterwards, you know, I think at one point I told my guys like, hey, if I show you some emotion, if I show you some vulnerability, like do you not, do you trust me less? Do you think I can't organize our fires or organize us in a defense because I've shared

something and showed a little bit of emotion with you guys? Then, then why don't you trust? me to have you show me emotion and know that I'm you know we're all just in this together and a lot of our leaders a lot of our platoon commanders platoon sergeants and squad leaders had done such a good job of having like tough high standards leadership but also allowing themselves to be vulnerable and seen as human beings that you know before during and after this whole thing we were able to really stay together and remain cohesive but just like you're walking lines and training on the operation, you got to do it afterwards too, and explain everything that's going on. And I think the most important decision I made after we reconciled it in Kuwait was that we

had this company-wide after-action review of what happened. And my exo detail, okay, here's the timeline of everything. Here's, and I had the platoons. So I wanted the Marines to talk. So we had squad level AARs, platoon AARs, knowing that they'd probably say more in those environments than as a full company. compile that, pass that up. And the whole point was to kind of generate this collective memory and

understand. And by having the conversation and being open for them to ask the questions that they wanted to ask, so they didn't have to afterwards wonder why. And then if you don't give them the why, they will create the why. And it's not the why you want them to have. And, you know, for all the decisions of, hey, why did we collapse a perimeter on one day? Why did we hold this position? Why this, why that?

This is what we knew at the time. This is why we made this decision. And that really went a long way. And as I've heard from Marines and other conversations, that was a really useful thing for all of us to go through. And I only knew this because of the education I had working with vets and military families before I even started the whole thing. Being introduced to books like Achilles in Vietnam by Jonathan Shea,

what it's like to go to war by Carl Marlantis. You don't, I was nervous as being a company commander going in not having combat experience. Like what's going to happen? You know, am I going to stand up to it? Like the question we all have. But you will be ready because you have places like Mitchell Hall and Infantry officer course because you have these amazing books written by people. If you can train and plan effectively in garrison, you can execute efficiently in war. And these are, these are lessons that we learned the hard way, but a large reason I've stayed in is because it is in some ways a privilege to know these truths. And it would seem incredibly wrong to keep them to myself.

and not pass them on to the next generation. And I've, you know, the Naval Academy has given me more than I've given it and the chance to talk about my Marines and share all this. And we have incredible young leaders coming up in this country. Like if you're, if you're upset about anything in this country, don't worry. We got some people on the way, very, very proud of the products we're putting out here. And these midshipmen are the best amongst us. Well, Jeff, all I can say in response to all that is I am just proud to have warned,

the same uniform as you, and I would say this to any of the Marines in your company or the Marines who are out there, I should say the troops who are out there. I mean, and I think any Marine who I serve with in the pitch of things in Helmand in 2010 or Marines in Saigon in 75, I think, I think we'd all say the same thing. So thank you for sharing and thank you for leading. Jeff, before we close today, I know you wanted to say a few words about the fallen. Yes, be happy to talk about them. So I was the company commander for nine of the 13 that were killed that day. Outside of my company, there was staff sergeant, Ryan Kinnas. He was the head of a Psiops team that was made up of Army and Marines. Just the definition of professionalism,

him and that entire team were absolutely incredible out there. And I was very fortunate to be able to work alongside of him throughout our operations at the gate. And he showed up on the 26. And I remember seeing Ryan and just be like, man, am I happy to see you right now. Like, we could really use your help with calming down this crowd that was getting very, overwhelming at that point. With a big smile on his face, he went to work. And that was just Ryan every day. That was the only time I had the opportunity to work with him and his team was there in Kabul, but I am very fortunate to have spent some time with his mother. And when you meet Paula, you realize where Ryan gets it from. Just a great woman, an American, and I believe she's done more

to bring comfort to others than us in uniform have been able to bring comfort to her. Also out there as part of the female engagement team were sergeants Nicole Gee and Sergeant Yohani Rosario Picciardo. I didn't get to really speak with them or observe them personally, but if you go online, the testaments that are out there to their character, their leadership, and they really define what it means to be a Marine, a leader, and an NCO. The stories are incredible, and they impacted so many lives, not just at the gate, but just in the Marine Corps as a whole. And I really encourage people to go read read more about them. Additionally, there were staff sergeant Taylor Hoover, who's from Echo Company. I didn't get a chance to really know him either. But if you talk with anyone in Echo Company,

the first thing they talk about it is just a father figure to so many Marines in that company, beloved by all that served with him, any of his Marines would have done anything for him. And that's because he would do anything for his Marines. And I think his legacy lives on in a lot of people. And then for the Marines, a Ghost Company, just an incredible bunch. We had David Espinoza and Jared Schmitz, just kind of a couple quiet Lance Corporals, but good Marines, disciplined, diligent. They were tough. They were going to do whatever it is he asked of them.

And they really matured and came into their own out there in Kabul, as many Marines. But that really stands out to their buddies as they think back about Jared and David. Additionally, we had Kareem Nakui and Riley McCollum, up-and-coming leaders in the unit. And Kareem had a chance to watch him step up and be a little. team leader as a junior, Lance Corporal, and the kid was just an absolute natural. Very good nature and really liked by everyone in the company and tough as hell. And then Riley McCollum, another really special young Marine. And I think about Riley, I really think about kind of what we lost in the future in a lot of ways.

After he was done, he had planned to get out and teach history and coach wrestling back in Wyoming. No doubt he would have impacted so many young lives. And then it's also very difficult to think about that his daughter was born two weeks after he was killed. And, you know, Levi's going to grow up with a bunch of Marines who are going to be around her and care about her and continue to support her. And it is something to behold about how many children are going to have a chance of freedom and to live under the banner of freedom here in our country and others because of the sacrifice of Riley and the others. But that is not without extreme cost. And that's Levi's not going to get a chance to meet her death. And so just, yeah, tough one, tough one to think about there.

Then we also had Corporal Dagan Page, Omaha, Nebraska. To call him a field marine is probably a little unfair. A heart of gold, definitely someone with a strong independence streak, I think is the best way to put it. But you get him going in the tactical environment, and he was just a natural. I will never forget watching him on live fire ranges making tactical calls that I think the majority of the leaders in the company were not capable of making. at that speed. He was really, he was, he was really damn good at being an infantry. And I think the night of the clear on the 19th, at one point he saw a very large family

in the crowd with blue passports, American passports, and single-handedly just dove into this mask and pulled them all out. I think he got out like 17 people single-handedly on his own in a pretty volatile situation. But another guy loved by everyone in the company, known by everyone in the company, known by everyone in the company with his with his big heart and his big personality we also had bert sanchise from logan's board indiana tough kid very much quiet kept through himself in a lot of ways his his buddies remember him as very very funny a little bit of off-color sense of humor but always could make people laugh and where everything's got really tough on the line in there at cabul that's where berg went and

held his ground and gave everybody a lot of strength around him additionally hunter lopez out of indio California. Incredible, incredible kid from an incredible family, parents or sheriff's deputies. Hunter was a true professional. As a corporal, I trusted him to brief the battalion commander on the live fire training he developed. He himself, as a young NCO, as a team leader, was designing company level training because he just took the job that seriously and was that capable and competent. And I discussed when we cleared through the night of the 19th that I got online with my Marines, we stepped into the crowd, and I'll never forget Hunter grabbing me by the flack and telling his team, hey, grab the six, which is my call sign. And feeling his hand and the other

hands go on my back really, really gave me the courage and the strength I need to step into the crowd that night. And Hunter, the last thing Hunter did before the bomb went off was him and David Triller, another amazing Marine dove into the crowd to full woman and child out. I think I spoke about that earlier. But that was that was his last act as a marine and a human being. Very, very unforgettable. And then we had doc max and soviac amazing Corman. And if you go online, you'll see a lot of photos with him and kids. And the reason for that is Max comes from a big family. He's got six, I want to say five or six biological brothers and sisters. But additionally, he has near 16 foster siblings. And almost all of them with some form of developmental disability or terminal illness.

So his entire life, he was taking care of other kids. And that's what he grew up doing, just serving others. And you just saw that day in and day out in Kabul. And so when there was a call for, hey, we've got a woman and a child that needs something. Like, obviously, Max was going to go. And that was his last act on Earth. And those are the Marines of Ghost Company. They were some of our best, but also, I think, indicative of just how fortunate of the character and the type of people

that we all got to serve around. We miss them dearly, and we remember them every day, and we do our best to keep the fire going that they brought in our lives. But a remarkable group of guys, and I'm very thankful for the opportunity to speak about them on your show. God bless them. Semperfy. Thanks, Jeff.

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