School of War - ‘The Odyssey’ and the Search for Historical Truth, with James Diggle and John Underhill

Episode Date: July 17, 2026

James Diggle, emeritus professor of Greek and Latin at Cambridge University, and John Underhill, professor of geoscience and energy transition at the University of Aberdeen, join School of War to discuss their decades-long search for the real Ithaca of Homer’s Odyssey. Based on their recent Antigone journal article, “In Search of Ithaca,” they explain why the island we’ve called Ithaca for centuries may actually be the wrong one. Can modern geology solve a 3,000-year-old mystery? Have we finally found the true home of Odysseus? And what would that mean for one of the greatest stories ever told? 02:44 – The mystery of Homer's Ithaca 04:45 – Can Homer be treated as history? 06:19 – The Bronze Age world of Odysseus 09:25 – Why modern Ithaca doesn't fit Homer's description 12:02 – Robert Bittlestone's hypothesis 17:15 – The geology expedition begins 23:17 – The million-euro search for Ithaca 28:37 – Disproving the original theory 31:19 – The geological breakthrough 35:09 – The discovery that changes everything 37:22 – Homer never actually calls Ithaca an island 41:24 – Solving a 3,000-year-old mystery 46:22 – Telemachus' journey finally makes sense 50:54 – Would Robert Bittlestone have agreed? 57:43 – The hidden cave Follow along on Instagram, X @schoolofwarpod, and YouTube @SchoolofWarPodcast Find more at The Free Press. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Okay, so hear me out, people. This episode really is a bit of a departure for us. I assume if you're listening to The School of War podcast that like me, you are excited about the new Christopher Nolan Odyssey. I haven't seen it yet, but I intend to hear very shortly. And in my excitement for the coming of this film, I came across a new article and a classics journal about what the identity of the real Ithaca, in fact, is. Ithaca, of course, is Odysseus's home. There's an island in the Mediterranean called Ithaca, but it turns out that these madmen from the United Kingdom,

originally a man named Robert Biddlestone, and then he was assisted by a classicist named James Diggle and a geoscientist named John Underhill, spent decades trying to vindicate the theory that, in fact, the island today called Ithaca was not Odysseus' true. home. In fact, it's an entirely different place called Pali Key. It's a crazy story. It is as close to the world of Indiana Jones, what they did as I think one can encounter in real life. And in the end,

I think they have actually solved the mystery and proven their thesis that they, in fact, had figured out where Odysseus's home really was. We're going to go on the journey together here with two of those men and have a truly fascinating conversation about the Bronze Age, about obsession, about archaeology, and classics. Let's get into it. It is for war this Milwaukee invasion of Hawaii. December 7, 1941, a date which will live in him. A bloody experience of Vietnam is to end in a state. We continue to face the rain situation.

People are not being. We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing ground. We shall fight in the fields and in the streets. We shall never surrender. If you read the headlines about Israel, you're only getting a tiny slice of a long, complicated story without depth, context, or sometimes even the basic facts. I'm Norm Weissman, the host of unpacking Israeli history. The podcast that dives into the fascinating and sometimes controversial events and figures that have shaped Israel's past.

and present each week on unpacking Israeli history. I explore the layers of Israeli history, debates around the Palestinian and Israeli conflict, the cultural forces at play, drawing from a variety of sources and perspectives. So if you're looking for a nuanced, thought-provoking take on Israel, one that avoids the oversimplifications and political spin, I think you'll really appreciate the show.

Find unpacking Israeli history, wherever you listen to your podcast or on YouTube. Hi, I'm Aaron McLean. Thanks for joining School of War. I am genuinely delighted to welcome to the show today, James Diggle and John Underhill. James Diggle is Emeritus Professor of Greek and Latin at Cambridge University, a life fellow of Queens College. His many publications include the Cambridge Greek Lexicon,

of which he is the editor-in-chief. John Underhill is the director of the Interdisciplinary Center for Energy Transition and Professor in Geoscience in Energy. transition at Aberdeen University. Years ago, they collaborated with a man named Robert Biddlestone on a book called Odysseus Unbound, The Search for Homer's Ithaca, and very recently have an article out in a classics journal called Antigone, was Homer's Ithaca an island? Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining School of War. Great pleasure. Nice to be with you. So look, I mean, the occasion for our conversation is obvious.

I like many Americans. I assume many Brits. Very excited about the new Christopher Nolan movie, The Odyssey. And I had it in the back of my mind to find some way to do an episode that would be relevant to that cinematic event. I, you know, read The Odyssey as a kid and then again as a classic student as an undergraduate. And I came across your article and Antigone. read it, got the book from some years ago that you gentlemen produced with Robert Biddlestone. And I just have to say, and the purpose of this episode, we're going to kind of unfold this long project in which you gentlemen have been engaged along with the late Mr. Biddlestone, this magnificent inquiry.

And gentlemen, I mean this in the nicest and really genuinely complimentary possible way, sort of mad project to figure out where was. Ithaca, Odysseus' homeland, which may seem like a strange thing given that there is an island called Ithaca, and I certainly had long been under the assumption that that was Odysseus' home. Maybe we could start a very big picture before we get into your work specifically on this question of the historicity of Homer. These are epic poems. These are, obviously they traffic quite literally in myth. Where does this notion that there have to be real places associated with what we're discussing in the poems began?

Or maybe that was always the case. This question of the historicity of Homer, how should we understand its tradition before we even get to your work? I would start there, Aaron, by saying that initially people did think that these were potentially stories, just storytelling that Homer was putting down in writing several centuries after the events that he depicts.

But of course, what happened largely in the 19th century is that remains, archaeological remains, started to be uncovered at places like Troy and Misenai and Tyrins. And people began to realize that actually this might be at least the geography of the sites might be correct. Most authors, when they write fiction, actually have places that are geographically identifiable by the readership. So it's a motiveless crime to get the geography wrong

because it's an attempt there by the author to give some authenticity to the story that they're telling. And this is the key question. I think, but as Troy and other sites were being uncovered, the question was, where was ancient Ithaca, Odysseus's homeland? And could that also be found alongside some of these other Mycenaean Bronze Age sites? And then perhaps another scene setting question before we zoom in. So then assuming that these stories have some connection to history, real history, This is the second millennium BC that we're talking about.

This is the Bronze Age. What is the Eastern Mediterranean like during this period? I mean, it's not the classical Greece of much of Greek literature. It's a different sort of world. What is that world like? Well, knowledge of the late Bronze Age comes from several sources. John has already mentioned that in the 19th century, century, Mycenae and other major Mycenae, that is early and late Bronze Age sites, were

discovered by archaeologists. And as John has said, it was seen that many of the details about these places that we find in Homer proved to be correct. There had been a time when people imagine that Troy was a poetic fiction, that Mycini was a poetic fiction. But what was uncovered by archaeologists in those spaces confirmed much of what we read about them in the Homeric poems. So the Homeric poems are a source of knowledge, both for sites on mainland Greece, and elsewhere like Troy, and for the kinds of activities, the kinds of artifacts that were found at that time. So we do have a vast amount of knowledge, both literary and archaeological, about the period that we're interested, the late Bronze Age, say 1,200 BC.

And so at some point around, I suppose, it's the 1100s, right, that we think, broadly speaking, we're talking about. Something comparable to the war Homer depicts happens. There's a clash between east and west, and then Homer tells the tale in the Iliad. And then he tells the tale of this remarkable homecoming of one of his captains. Odysseus to a place named Ithaca. Again, there is an island named Ithaca. I'd certainly, I'd never been there, but I'd certainly always been under the impression that, gosh, that must be, that must be what we're talking about. Who was Robert Biddlestone and how does it become a problem for you, gentlemen? And apparently a defining problem for at least portions of your careers

to figure out where Ithaca actually was. Yes. Ithaca, its location and its appearance are described in great detail in the Odyssey. And so he narrates his past adventures, and at one point in his narrative, he describes Ithaca in this detail. He says, My Home is Ithaca. It is the furthest west of a group of island. It is low-lying, in other words, it is not mountainous, and it is closest to the sea of these islands.

And those islands face the west. Now, try and reconcile that description with the location of modern Aethaki. Ithaka is not the furthest west of the group of islands, which we now call the Ionian Islands. It is the furthest east of them. It doesn't face the sea. It faces the mainland of Greece. And it is not low-lying, that is not mountainous. It has cliffs that plunge sheer into the sea.

It was this incompatibility between the location of the modern island of Ithake and Homer's description in the words of Pedissus of his homeland of Ithaca that has puzzled scholars and readers for generations ever since antiquity. Many, many attempts have been made to reconcile the descriptions and the locations, but none have been successful. Many alternatives to Ithaghi have been proposed for Homer's Ithaca, none of them convincing. So Robert Bittlestone came up with this brilliant idea that perhaps Holmes-Ithaca was the peninsula of Pelliki, as it is now called, which lies to the west of the island of Cephalonia, which is one of the group of islands mentioned by ideas used in that passage. the only problem with that was that Peliki is a peninsula

and not an island which fits Homer's description perfectly. It's further to sea, it's westernmost point of these islands and it is no lying in the way it is not in mountains. So there was a major problem and

when John and I got together with Robert Biddle he put to us a suggestion that perhaps in the time of a disuse, what is now a peninsula called Padiki, was not in fact a peninsula, but was a separate island, and that the strip of land that at the moment joins Paliki to Kefalonia, the strip of land having been formed by rock falls,

landslides from the overhanging mountains in this area, which is the most tectonically active, in other words, prone to earthquakes region in the hold of the Mediterranean. Perhaps John might want to expand on that. Well, and let me, before we, I do want you to expand on that, John, but before we do, or perhaps as part of doing that, I'm genuinely curious in who Robert was. gentlemen, part of the fascinating aspect of this story for me, and not to give too much away about the end, which we'll get to here in the course of the conversation, is my reading of your piece in Antigone is that you've actually solved the problem, which is an extraordinary thing

to say here in the year 2026, that there are big problems remaining to be solved in classical literature, big problems, and that you actually solve it. I mean, I'm that unusual, perhaps mysterious figure the general intelligent reader for a piece like yours. That is to say, I'm not particularly qualified to evaluate the details of what you're saying, but I know enough to follow the argument, and I find it extremely persuasive what you come up with. And the article is just this extraordinary adventure in its own right. And then, as was the original book, Odysseus Unbound, which is, you know, a serious book quite unlike, well, quite like any other book that I'm familiar with combining, you know, reportage, geology, analysis of classical texts.

you know, biographical accounts of Islanders and the earthquakes they've lived through. I mean, it's just an extraordinary volume. And so part of what's of interest to me is who are the kinds of people, both you two gentlemen, but Mr. Biddlestone originally as well, who devote so much time to such an enterprise. I mean, tell me about this man and how he got engaged with it. Well, maybe I can just take you back to the beginning of how James and I got involved. Robert was clearly very classics were very close to his heart, even though he had actually studied a different discipline and set up a business and was effectively a businessman going about his day-to-day activities.

When he reached out to James initially to say, I've had this idea that on Keffield, The Western Peninsula fits like a glove, the narrative in Homer. And just to reiterate this, what is said within the Odyssey is that Dulcion and Sarmie and Wooded Zachynthos are islands that are close to each other. And it says around our many islands, close to each other, Dulcion, Sami and Woody Zakynthos, Ithaca itself lies low, furthest to the sea, towards the dusk, i.e. towards the west. And they, that is the islands, lie apart facing dawn and the sun.

And that very sentence, that very paragraph, was what Robert based his conversation initially with James on, and then realizing that actually if Palliki, that fitted all those clues, was indeed an island, as he believed at the time. There needed to be a marine channel running through a low land bridge that connects Palliki currently with Kefalonia, the main body of Kefellonia. This is called the Thinia Valley. It is six kilometers long, two kilometers wide in the north, and tapers to be only 500 meters wide to the south.

Now, this is where it gets interesting, Aaron, for me, and why I got involved. Because, you know, frankly, what Robert and James did, first of all, was to seek advice from other colleagues at Cambridge, James Jackson and others who are esteemed geoscientists working in the Aegean province. I think it's true to say, James will be able to confirm this, that indeed James Jackson said, I largely work in the Aegean,

but I know someone that's worked in the West. And his name is John Underhill, and he did a PhD there. And interestingly, Robert, when he approached me, basically admitted that he had simply put in the words Kefalonia geology into Google or equivalent search engine. And my name had come up. So now it's been corroborated in two sources. And he thought, actually, I'm going to reach out to this geoscientist. And the conversation went a bit like this, where Robert, rang me. I was at Edinburgh University at the time, mind my own business, and the phone went,

and he said, I'm not a crank. Now, if you hear that, you would immediately think, what on earth is going to happen here. And I am eternally grateful, Aaron, that I listened on, because he just simply explained the hypothesis he had, as James has articulated, and he knew, It was the seismically active region. He'd been there, seen the steep slopes and some of the rock fall and landslides and asked me whether it was feasible or possible. And I was extremely skeptical. I thought it would be something that would be easy to disprove. But what was interesting about it for me was it was an opportunity to go back to an area that I knew well.

I loved. I'd worked three years there on a PhD, published papers on the geology of the island, so I knew it. But what it told me was actually, if we had the resources, I'm not saying unlimited budget and unlimited time, but if we had the opportunity, this would be testable. Would there be a marine channel of the right age in the right place that made Palliki an island? and what we would need to do would be geological mapping, dating of the sediments,

determining what their environment of deposition was at the time of the Bronze Age. But more particularly, and at that stage, at the very beginning of this project, it was more hope than expectation that we might get a body scan

beneath the surface. And to do so, we would need to collect geophysical data, seismic data, gravity, resistivity and the like, electromagnetics and the like, and also drill boreholes and take continuous cores and be able to analyse those.

And part of my thinking here was actually when you look at some very distinguished American geoscientists like John Kraft and Ripraff and others, they had worked at Troy and demonstrated that the Trojan planet, actually was water bearing marine and embayment that actually fitted the Homeric text there. And so there was a precedent of trying to determine a paleo-dography for the Bronze Age, which actually determined that it worked, the paleoagography fitted the Homeric story.

And so I felt, actually, you know what, I'm going to suspend disbelief. I'm going to take a risk with my academic reputation and get involved with this. And I am still here, you know, 20 or so years later. When does Robert Billson approach you both? When does this? 2003, 2004, around that time. You know, James and I sometimes laugh that the time it's taken us to actually test this theory. And I stress test rather than prove because the original theory, as well,

we're going on to talk about, needed to be modified based upon the data and evidence that we discovered and indeed new translations that James went back to look at the text. But at the outset, we, yeah, it's 20 years ago or more. So where James and I probably tease each other is the fact that it's taken us slightly longer than it took Odysseus to get to Troy and to get back to Ithaca, then it's taken us to actually rigorously and forensically test the theory. So, sorry, just to stick with the logistics of all of this for a bit, and then we'll get back to the substance. But, I mean, both aspects, both the story of your own inquiry fascinates me,

as does the substance of it itself. But was, you know, did Bidleston brain? I mean, at one point, you're drilling for core samples here with heavy equipment. I mean, this is an extraordinary project, you know, paired, of course, with James', you know, really very fascinating textual analysis based on what you're seeing physically on the ground. Did Biddlestone bring substantial financial resources to this? Were you raising money? No, okay. I don't know much about the man. So I don't know if he was sort of one of these mad, eccentric wealthy Englishmen that your country is so good at producing,

but maybe just eccentric, it turns out. So maybe eccentric and a little bit of obsessive, but equally brilliant. And, you know, he came up with that theory. It was then a question of one testing it. And then, for me, how do I get the resources to do a proper job? And this is the key bit, I think, to answer your question. Robert and I set off to meet a geotechnical company called Fugro, who are based in Holland. and they have expertise in foundations for bridges and construction houses and the like. And frankly, I pitched to them that there was something interesting here and their CEO at the time and their chief technical officer

were in the room with Robert and I. I took them through the tests I would wish to undertake. and of course I would say to their great credit they leaned in and decided to support the project and support it to the tune of over a million euros in-kind support in parallel with that I pitched to the UK Research and Innovation UKRI they're called the Research Council and they also provided a hundred thousand pound to support a PhD student working under my supervision to analyze a lot of the data that would be collected by the geotechnical company.

That enabled us to fly helicopters with what would look like, almost like an exoset missile, but actually was a sensor to detect electromagnetic variations in the earth, to take gravity, to shoot seismic records to get the aforementioned, body scans of the subsurface. They brought their equipment with boreholes that would take core, complete cores, which we were then able to pallet and bring back to the UK and was stored in their core shed initially in North Wales

and then brought to Aberdeen. So it was a military operation done a whole series of different tests that in and of any one of them would not give an answer. but collectively would give us the body of evidence to test the original theory that there was a marine channel or not. And I'm sure James would support me here. I kept reminding colleagues that we were testing a hypothesis. We weren't trying to prove it. But we were gathering the data and evidence and whatever it would show, even if it was an inconvenient reality,

then that's what we needed to table. and it becomes a fascinating story in the recent times, the last four or five years, because as the data and evidence was being gathered, analyzed and synthesized into interpretation, it challenged Robert's original theory, but we were able to reconcile the geoscience that we have collected with the translations that James can describe in more detail. than me. And bringing that together, we have a holistic model that, as you say, does appear to resolve a 3,000-year-old mystery and one that has perplexed archaeologists and classicists for centuries. So, James, you'll take it next, but before we do, let me help the audience just orient a bit here. And if, you know, perhaps on YouTube, we'll put this up, but if folks are listening,

if you get the opportunity, you should look up the Ionian Islands just to get a quick visual of what we're talking about. So this is a group of islands, as you gentlemen said, they're off the west coasts of the Greek mainland, really at the mouth of the Gulf of Corinth, which, you know, separates the Peloponnesias from the mainland mainland of Greece. And then the big island in this grouping is Caffalonia, which has this peninsula out to the west, Palli Kee. I'm going to do my best to absorb your correct pronunciations here, which Palli key obviously being the target of your investigation. Then you have sort of to the northeast Ithaki, which I would have always assumed, I think many people would have always assumed with Zithica, but as, as James pointed out earlier, doesn't match at all the description

in the Odyssey itself, which is a bit of a head scratcher. And then down in the south, you have Zacanthos. So those, and they're all clustered together there at the mouth of the Gulf of Corinth. And this protrusion of Palliqi out to the west, it's a peninsula that kind of fish hooks down. It's largely on a north-south axis, and then it's connected by this little land bridge, as you say, with this valley in it, to the mainland of Caffalonia. And one hesitates to describe, I'm holding this book, Odysseus, I'm bound in my head. It says, massive volume. One hesitates to describe conclusions reached by such a book as tentative. But I suppose, nevertheless, we will say it's tentatively the conclusion that in Palli-Kee, you have found the true Ithaca, and that Palli-key was an island.

And then, as we've been discussing, but I want to make it clear for the listeners, crisis strikes. Crisis strikes. All this work, all this money, this military operation, or at least early portions of it have occurred. You seem as though, you know, Biddleston writes this book with your support. It seems like you've got it solved or very likely have it solved. And then, disaster. It turns out that the sea really didn't run through that valley in the Bronze Age.

This is the conclusion you come to. So please tell me what comes next. Well, so let me just talk a little bit through what we did find to come to the conclusions that we did geologically. Those boreholes that we took were able to demonstrate that there was once marine water within this valley. However, the age of those sediments was much older than the brosome. In fact, the youngest ages that we have found are around 290,000 years ago, which is something called the upper Pleistocene within the quaternary period. After that, the area gets concertina, it gets compressed and a series of reverse faults, or what are known geologically as thrust faults,

cut through and transect the valley and uplift it. But what was fascinating was that, on top of the sediments of marine age of Pleistocene Age, we found sediments that were bedded in filling, effectively a canoe-shaped hollow, quite large, still several hundred metres in length and width, although elliptical canoe-shaped, as I say, with two old drainage systems going to the north coast and to the south, And this is where I need to introduce a second literary figure, Strabo,

because Strabo in his geographies described the island of Kefalonia and says, and I paraphrase, but at the head of the Gulf, on which the Roman settlements of Palais, which gives its name to Palais, and Cranoy, both of which, the position of which are known, He says that at the head of the Gulf, where there is a narrow isthmus in which water, and I'm going to choose my words carefully here, water goes from end to end from time to time. At that appeared to Robert, and indeed to us initially, to be reaffirming the idea of a marine channel. Now, the work that I've led has demonstrated that the marine waters were too old, as I've said,

but that there was effectively a lake or a meadow from which drainage occurred bi-directionally. One river system going to the north coast and one to the south coast. And the dates that we have obtained from the meadow area that connects these two regions, at the saddle of the valley, the highest point of the valley, they are old. than the same age as and younger than the Bronze Age. So in other words, there is an explanation where there would be a continuous water course that ran overland to separate Paliki from the main body of Ithaca from time to time. It would flow from end to end when the meadow became a lake and overflowed in both directions. we can now demonstrate that on the basis of the geological evidence that has been collected and analyzed.

And then it's a question of actually does that match with or marry with the classical translation? But that is what the geology showed. And so in simple terms, I think I can demonstrate that Robert Bittleston's original hypothesis is disproven, that there was a marine channel running through here. in the Bronze Age. However, the data and evidence threw up a more intriguing possibility that there was a continuous or semi-continuous water course that took water from time to time, from end to end,

that fits with Straybo's description, a second independent geographical description of the same area, which is remarkable in its own instance. And the final thing, Aaron, I'll leave you with before James pitches in, is that there was another really odd, curious set of events that led us to look at maps of Western Greece, of those islands that you described previously. And amazingly, Aetharchy used to be called Doolikun,

and its capital, Vathi, was Doolika. So in other words, the missing island of Doolikion, which was in Homeric text, used to be ascribed to the island now known as Itharkey. So in other words, prior to Ithaca being ascribed to Itharkey or vice versa, that island went under a different name, which means we didn't have an Ithaca whatsoever within the geographical description, but we do have a peninsula out to the west,

which fits with all the clues, a peninsula that subsequently got named Pelliki after Palae in Roman times. And at that point, I should hand over to James to give his perspective and what I've just said in terms of the geology and how classics and geology could be reconciled with each other. And who would have ever thought that a classicist and a geoscientist would work on an interdisciplinary project like this? And then, of course, James, you'll help us land the plane here, which is the most obvious outstanding problem that listeners' minds have probably already gone to is if we've disproven the fact that Palli Key was an island, sure, if these water courses existed, perhaps it has some semi-separate cultural identity or something like that.

But Ithaca's an island. It's everyone knows. Everyone who's read The Odyssey knows that Ithaca's an island. So if Palliqee is not an island, it can't be Ithaca, which seems like a big problem. And then, of course, this is ultimately the subject of your true. I mean, it's as classics articles go, it's the closest to an adventure story I've ever seen. Yes. It was, to me, a great surprise when the geological work undertaken by John demonstrated after 20 years.

that Palliki had never been an island. But then I began to think about Robert's hypothesis again. In fact, Romer's hypothesis had two parts to it. The first part was that the peninsula of Palliki, as it now is, was Homer's Ithaca. everything pointed to that. The description in the odyssey, the location of it fitted perfectly. So it was going to be difficult to abandon that notion without a struggle. The second part of his hypothesis was that, well, Paliki was once upon a time not a peninsula,

it was an island because there was the Marine Channel. Now, John has proved that there was not a marine chaddle. So one part of Robert Bittleston's hypothesis collapsed. Did that, however, mean that the second part of the hypothesis, the identification of Khaliki with Ithaca also collapsed? It collapsed only if Ithaca has to be an island. So I thought, well, everybody has assumed that Ithaca was an island. Robert assumed it.

It's been assumed since antiquity. It was assumed to buy me that Ithaca was an island. But what justification is there for that assumption? So I immediately re-read the Odyssey, and I discovered a very interesting fact that nowhere does Homer describe Ithaca as an island.

He has many opportunities to do so, but he never does. The word for island in Greek is nasos. He uses this to describe a great many islands

in the pouring, but he never describes Ithaca as an island a nasos. So what does he describe it as? Well, he or his characters, including Odysseus, always describe Ithaca as a land, Greek Gaia or Iyer, or, in the case of a disuse, native land, homeland,

Petrus. And then, particularly interestingly, another word is used to describe Ithaca. It is the word Demos. It's the first part of several familiar English words such as democracy. Now, in Homeric Greek,

Demos, means either land or inhabitants of a land. And in a dozen or so passages, Homer and the Odyssey and once in the Iliad also

has the expression Ithacres Demos, the Demos, the land of Ithaca Now, what is especially interesting and important here is that the word Demos has exactly the same metrical shape as Nesos, the word for Ireland.

So, why does Does Homer speak of the Demos of Ithaca, when his verse would allow him to speak of the Nesels of Ithaca? Then I discovered one particularly interesting passage. It's in the 13th book of the Odyssey, where Odysseus is described as returning home. he's brought home on a ship provided by the people of Fiatia

and who he has been recently entertained by. And in this passage we read that the ship approached the island. Aha! You will say, well, doesn't it then prove that Ithaca is an island? The text goes on. On the Demos of Ithaca, there is a bay called the Bay of Falkis. Now, when I translated that passage for the book, that is who is unbound, I mistranslated it, not because I didn't know the meaning of the word Demos,

but simply because I was translating it into... blank verse. And this verse form wouldn't allow me to translate the term, deemoth of Ithaca, fully. So what I translated it as was, the ship approached the island, on Ithaca, there is a harbour. Now, anybody reading that? We'll assume then that the harbour and Ithaca were part of the island.

But when I looked at the text again, And I realized that in my translation I had left out the word demos. So what the text says is the ship approached the island. On the land of Ithaca there is a harbour. Now that makes a clear distinction between island, which we assume to be Kefalunia, and demos land area. and so it appeared from that and from all the other indications that I had found that the most likely explanation of what is going on here is that Ithaca was a piece of land,

an area, a locality that was a part of the part. of the larger island of Ithaca. Once one had seen that, everything fitted together. There was nothing whatever in the poem to contradict that assumption. And there were many further indications that it was possible to put one's finger on, that that was the correct location of Ithaca. the westernmost part, that is the modern peninsula paliki, of the island of Kefalonia. Why, you may say, does this part have a separate name?

Well, it's clear that Edithius was king of Ithaca, but not only of Ithaca, of of Kefalonia too. He had his palace on Ethigo, that is on Poliki, but he was equally the king of

the Kefalonians. In the Iliad he's described as leading to Troy a contingent of Kefaleneians, not of Ethnicians, I mean Ethical has no doubt formed part of that contingent, but he is described as king of

the Kaffalonians. So, because his palace is centered on Paliki, which has its separate name, Ithaca. That is why the focus is on Ithagher in the Orish. Yes, and the Kefalenean sort of mystery, I mean, in a way the poem starts to make more sense. Both poems start to make more sense with this hypothesis, because otherwise it's a bit mysterious why Odysseus should be leading the contingent from a different island, as you just pointed out, rather than from his own. I suppose, this is me

riffing a bit, so feel free to say this doesn't make any sense, but it also makes the story of the suitors make a bit more sense. You know, if Ithaca is this small island, then we have to assume that suitors are coming from all over Greece to make trouble and camp out. But if Ithaca is part of this

substantially larger island of Caffalonia, and it's sort of a district of it, even though it had been the politically dominant district under Odysseus, well, it would be easier, it makes more sense that there would be, you know, barons from elsewhere on this large island coming in to harass Penelope than in the conception of Ithaca as its own standalone island. I mean, once it falls into place, the whole thing is really pretty elegant.

Yes, certainly. And we have, at one point in the film, a narrative of, a herdsman of a disuse he looks after Odysseus's cattle not on Ithaca

but on Cafferunio and he is required by the suitors regularly to supply catty for their feasts and he's described as

bringing them across to Ithaca by ferry. Now, Robert had imagined that there was a ferry service across his hypothetical marine channel. But, you know, once we have identified Ithaca with a part of Cafferonia, a peninsula, then the obvious explanation is that the ferry service runs across the Bay of August Stolly, where there is still today a ferry service linking Kavirnir with Perliki. And then the other, I mean, or among the other passages that seem to be settled by this question, is this question of Telemachus's return.

You discussed this in the article. I'm just looking at the passage right now. Telemica's return to Ithaca from his journey to other islands, where he is warned by Athena that the suitors are waiting to kill him. So she tells him, well, I guess her exact words, I'll just read it here, send on your ship and all your comrades to the city, which Robert Biddleston took to mean that there was going to be a circumnavigation of the island to go the long way around.

But you gentlemen say, you've got a fascinating diagram here, it makes just as much sense that rather than go into the little sound that separates Palli Key from the mainland of Cephalonia, you can quite easily see him just going up the west coast and landing on the west coast of Ithaca. So that passage is resolved as well. Essentially, as you keep saying, there are no unresolved passages. The poem makes...

That's right. That's right. The passage that I just referred to about the cattle which are brought over, was one of two passages where Robert had assumed that the Homeric text demands that Ithaca should be a separate island. So I was able to dispose of that previous passage. This left the passage that you've just referred to, because Robert, in analyzing the route taken home by Telemachus, who has just been on a visit. visit to the Peloponnese, Sparta and Pylos.

Suppose that Telemachus' way of outweeting the suitors who were lying in ambush for him in the Strait of Augustaulay was to take the channel route back home, that is to sail his ship around Paliki Ithaca and approach the palace. area on Ithaca from the north of the channel. So I had to dispose of that and show that it was quite unnecessary to have Telemachus returning by that route. It's quite clear that Telemachus does land on the west coast of Paniki, Ithaca. He's given instructions were to land by the goddess Athel.

She tells him to keep his ship far from the islands. In other words, steer clear of Cephalonia and Dulcion and Zachinthos. In other words, don't sail up the Augustaulay Gulf because the suitors are lying in wait for him there. She says, land where you can on Ithaca Baliki, and that has to mean the west coast of Paliki. And she says, once you have landed there, make your way overland to the old Pinkfarmah, Euner's, and then go back to the palace. In the meantime, the ship without Tillamacus is free to sail back through the Augustaulay Gulf, outwitting the suitors if it can. But even if it gets caught by the suitors, they won't catch Tillamacus.

He will be quite safe. So the two passages in which Robert thought it was necessary, for the hermetic narrative to have a channel, it proved not too difficult to show, didn't require that channel. If Robert, I guess he passed away I see in 2015, how would he react to all of this new information that you gentlemen have uncovered

or new interpretation over the course of the last decade? So one of the things about Robert was that he, welcomed challenge. And I think he introduced James and I into the mix in order to try and come up with the right answer as opposed to the one that he originally was wedded to. He was open-minded and flexible

to other possibilities. Whilst at the same stage, of course, having the strong conviction that Paliki was Ithaca. I think if he were to look at where we've ended up, he will feel hopefully vindicated by what we have done and accepting of the fact that the appliance of science has actually thoroughly tested and disproved his original theory, but given us a different resolution, a solution,

to that mystery. And if I may, Aaron, there are just a couple of other elements that you might wish to consider. And I'll bring James into this, because I mentioned Strabo before, and Strabo's use of a particular verb has been translated by many to mean is submerged. But as James will testify,

The word literally means washed over. And effectively, James, he's too humble to say this, but in going back to look at Strabo, he realized that actually Strabo was also describing a water course that passed overland rather than being submerged. And James might want to talk to that a little bit because I think that is, again, an independent corroboration, second source, if you like, that

suggests that this is the answer. And the final thing that I'll add at this stage is the geology actually explains another phenomena that's described in the Homeric text. And that is when Odysseus lands back in ancient Dithica, it's in a mist, shrouded

in a mist on a beach, of a bay within a bay. and the northern part of Paliki, there is a village called Atharas, and north of that, Atharass Bay. And there are two outer headlands and two inner headlands. And not only that, on the eastern side of that particular bay, there is one of these thrust lines that I mentioned before, these faults that run through that have transected and uplifted part of the island.

and water passes along the fault plane itself, cold fresh water, that when it enters the bay, and the bay is an embayment, is enclosed, and warms up in the summer. And there is this really unusual temperature inversion. And what we find is that in the summer months, that that northern bay is shrouded in mist because the cold water meets the warm water and you have that condensation effect. And it actually would explain the Homeric text and be describing not only geographically because the headlands within the headlands, but also the mist that congregates at that particular place for this geological reason.

It's another bit of circumstantial evidence, but when you build it in for all the bits that we've talked about actually produces a compelling explanation for all the descriptions that you find. Yes, in addition, John, as you know, at that location there is a subterranean cave. Now, this is one of the features of that place, that is the bay where Odysseus landed, that a great play is made of in the poem is described in great length. It's a cave dedicated to the nymphs. It has two entrances, exits, one for gods, one for mortals. Now, Robert tried to find that cave,

and he did find that there was a huge cave, no longer accessible, with no entrance or exit, currently in sight. But it is there. Gravity testing was done and at one point

we had an extraordinary piece of luck. The local people, the local authorities were repairing the road that runs right alongside

where Robert knew that such a cave existed. And at one point a bulldozer dug into the side of the road

and a fisher opened up. It was quite clear that it was leading to a cave. The builders quickly patched it up because they thought that

if the authorities, the seniorologists, heard of this, it would immediately be declared a site of importance and their work would be interrupted. But the local,

I think the mayor, knew of this, and Robert was a friend of his, and he told us about it. So, we arranged with the local mayor to get a bulldozer.

and open up that fissure again. We had to, of course, patch it up again as soon as we had finished. Robert did a lot of boring on the top of the hill with rather primitive drills that he himself had got, and he got down a fair way, and since then, is it an absolute clear that there is an enormous. cave there underground. Now, if this is the cave that Homo described sacred to the limbs, it will be quite a discovery if we can get into it because it will have remained

untouched for three millennial. And goodness knows what religious and other artifacts might be found if it. Well, perhaps there will be some people listening who would be interested in participating in such a project. James, John, I don't really know what to say besides congratulations. I mean, it's extraordinary on so many levels what you've done. One, as we were talking about at the top, that there are big questions in classical texts and archaeology that one can identify unresolved issues that one can identify and actually solve. in the 21st century, or at least by all appearances, seem to solve.

That in and of itself is extraordinary, and then just the elegance of having spent decades now on this poem of homecoming and bringing it home. Actually, actually, in a way to me as a reader, very satisfyingly coming up with an explanation that ties together everything that needs to be tied together. It's just remarkable. everything that you were describing

seems to me to come as close as real life is going to come to Indiana Jones. I don't suppose you discovered any ancient spirits in these underground caves or anything like that, but as close as one can get in the world. Maybe just to elaborate a little bit, I mean, having undertaken

thanks to geophysical colleagues, we've been very fortunate actually to have I've been able to call upon a team of experts and Professor Peter Stiles in Geophysics, Jean-Lucsveniger for the OSL dating, Maria from the University of Athens, who's been doing a lot of the biostrategography, and a byproduct of some of the work that we've done is to actually, although there is sometimes nothing at the surface, to see structures which are

buried beneath the surface, and to be able to date those by taking trenches and samples. And what we already know from Kefalonia and indeed Paliki is that there are some Mycenaeanian tombs, there are Mycenaean archaeological artifacts, sarcophagus has been found, Meissenian wall constructions and the like. A number of our geophysical and geological tests of highlighted sites of interest that could and potentially should be archaeological. excavated by experts, what they already tell us, Aaron, is that Kefalonia and Paliki were a much more significant Mycenaeanian site, bronze age site and settlements, than generally

is thought to be the case. And I think that's the exciting bit of where this goes next. and there are geological, geophysical tests and archaeological work that hopefully will follow that will enable us to take this story further. And we stand ready to do some of that work. And I think the last two or three years and the work that the results have been coming out over that time and working with James in terms of passing the baton to him and saying there isn't a marine channel, at least there was one, but not at the right time and the right place, but there is this overland watercourse for him to go back

and to do the thorough forensic translations that he's done, both of Strabo and of Homer, to get to the point where we are now. But there is still work that we could and should do to take this forward archaeologically, I think. And that's the exciting next stage. James Diggle of Cambridge University, John Underhill, of Aberdeen University. This has been an extraordinary conversation. Your project is extraordinary. Thank you so much for making the time to come on School of War to discuss it.

Thanks for having us, Aaron. Great pleasure.