Science Friday - 23andMe Bankruptcy | A Coating That Can Slow A Golf Ball’s Roll

Episode Date: March 28, 2025

The company has genetic data of 15 million people, which could be shared with a future buyer. Here’s how to delete it. Plus, an experimental coating could make golf balls roll more reliably on greens with different conditions.After 23andMe Bankruptcy, Customers Urged To Delete Their DataIf you’re one of roughly 15 million people who used 23andMe to unlock information from their DNA, consumer advocates have a message for you: Delete your data. On Sunday, the company, which has customers send saliva samples for DNA analysis, filed for bankruptcy. While many customers submitted their saliva for the purpose of ancestral analysis, 85% of customers also consent to their data used for genetic disease research.As the company searches for a buyer, consumer advocates, including California Attorney General Rob Bonta, have urged customers to delete their data from 23andMe’s website. 23andMe and other genetic testing companies are not subject to HIPAA, meaning health and medical records kept by 23andMe could be shared with a future buyer.Producer Kathleen Davis joins Host Flora Lichtman to discuss this and other top science stories of the week.Chemists Make A Coating That Can Slow A Golf Ball’s RollWith spring here, the days are getting warmer and longer, meaning conditions are perfect for a trip to the golf course. And while golf is certainly a game of physics—force, angles, parabolas—this week researchers presented work showing that chemistry could play an important role on the golf course as well. Speaking at the meeting of the American Chemical Society in San Diego, researchers described a high performance coating that could be incorporated into the polyurethane shell of a golf ball.The hydrophilic (water-loving) coating would make tiny bits of water stick to the surface of the golf ball and sheet off, modifying the way the ball interacts with the grass of the green. That interaction, says Tom Kennedy, owner of Chemical Innovative Solutions Inc., would lead to the ball rolling more slowly and reliably, especially on “fast,” closely-cut greens in dry and windy conditions.Kennedy joins Host Ira Flatow to discuss the technology, and how hydrophilic coatings could find a home in other applications, including solar cells.Transcripts for each segment will be available after the show airs on sciencefriday.com. Subscribe to this podcast. Plus, to stay updated on all things science, sign up for Science Friday's newsletters.

This is Science Friday. I'm Ira Plato. And I'm Flora Lichten. If you are one of the 15 million people who sent a sample of your DNA to the company 23 and me to learn about your genes or your family history, you might want to wrestle up that login information. 23 and me declared bankruptcy this week. And now consumer advocates are urging people who've shared their genetic information with the company to delete their data.

Here to fill us in on this and other science stories from the week is Kathleen Davis, producer at Science Friday based in New York. Kathleen, welcome. Hey, Flora. What's up with 23 and me? Yeah, so, I mean, a lot of people are probably familiar with 23 and me. As you said, about 15 million people have used it. So this is a company where you spit in a tube and you send a saliva sample in the mail to the company and then they analyze it. So I think commonly a lot of people use this to find out about their ancestry, which is cool, right?

I mean, you can unlock part of your family tree. Yeah, of course. This also provided customers with information about diseases that they might be predisposed to. If you're a carrier for any of these diseases, potentially, there's just a whole suite of things that you could actually unlock with this sample. Last Sunday, 23 and me filed for bankruptcy, and they're looking for a new buyer. So consumer rights advocates, including the attorney. General of California are now warning people that their medical information and data that they've shared with the company might be at risk in a possible buyout. What's the risk?

Yeah. So, I mean, we don't know what a potential buyer would want to do with your data exactly, but like an example scenario that I think is concerning to a lot of people is that potentially your genetic information could make its way to insurers who could deny you coverage based on your genetics. Okay, so what should people do? So you got to delete that data is what these consumer advocates are saying. So it's not too hard to do this. If you log into your 23 and me account, you can go to settings and you go to this 23 and me data page. You should be able to click view and then delete your information within that page. If you're listening to this and you're like, I learned some really cool stuff from 23 and me, I don't want that information to go away.

you can download it so that you have access to it still on your computer, but you can also delete it so that 23 and me does not have access to it within their servers. Let's move on to Mars, and a new possible clue about Martian life? Yes, so NASA's Curiosity rover has once again found something interesting on Mars that some scientists are saying could be a chemical relic of life from a long time ago. And that is long chain organic molecules. So if you're like me and you're not a chemistry person and you don't really know what this means, the reason that this is exciting is because these molecules are likely from fatty acids, which are a really common building block of life here on Earth. It's also possible that these fatty acids could have formed without life. So it's not a sure sign that something a long time ago lived on Mars, but it could be. And that's really exciting to scientists. Where was the sample from? So this evidence came from samples that were drilled from a dried bed of an ancient Martian lake.

So for a little bit of context here, because it's really cool. On Mars, there's this crater called the Gale Crater. In the center of this crater, there is this 5,000 meter tall mountain that scientists call Mount Sharp. So early on in Curiosity's life, it found evidence that there was once a lake. that may have supported life right here in this location. So mind you, this was probably more than three billion years ago. But over the years, Curiosity has found other potential evidence of ancient life at this site. So this recent discovery is just adding on to kind of this treasure trove of information that is potentially supporting evidence for previous life. And are these

samples being analyzed by Curiosity on Mars? Yes. So Curiosity has a built- chemistry lab. So this is called the sample analysis of Mars instrument, also known as Sam. That's easier to say, yeah. Yes, much easier. Curiosity has been testing samples from Mars on Mars, and that's how it's found these promising signs of life. So the way that Curiosity physically analyzes these samples is that it takes rock samples. It drills them up into grit. It decants them inside of quartz cups. And then it bakes them at a super-hundred. temperature up to 1,100 degrees Celsius. And then it analyzes the gases that come from that baking process. So it is a whole thing. I love it. It's like Martian Bakeoff. Exactly the great

Martian Bake Off. Curiosity wins every time. Absolutely. Let's move on to your next story, which is about chess. Yes. Flora, are you a chess person? I'm not a chess person. I would like to be a chess person. I, you know, I aspire to that, but no, are you a chess person? I like to play chess. Not to brag, I was part of the chess club in elementary school. I'm not sure that's a brag, Kathleen. I'm pretty good at it. But who else is pretty good at chess is AI?

However, there's a recent study that seems to show that the next wave of AI models, so these super sophisticated models might be prone to cheat at chess, which is not okay in the chess community. Oh my gosh. How do they cheat, though? Okay, so researchers from this AI research organization called Palisade Research put seven large language models to the test in chess, which has been used historically a lot to test computer intelligence. So these researchers found that these newer sophisticated AI models, which the point is that they're trained to solve complex problems by breaking them down into stages, these sophisticated models will try to cheat at chess more than their old. school AI counterparts. So the way that this all went down, these games were played between these AI models and

Stockfish, which is this open source chess engine. The AI would try to cheat by doing things like replacing Stockfish with a less powerful chess program. It would also, in some cases, try to take control over the chess board and actually delete the opponent pieces. And it did this when the AI was going to lose the game. And so it was backed into a corner, and so it was using any means necessary to win. Wow.

And these researchers found that in previous case studies with older AI models, the older models would only do such dastardly cheating methods when they were explicitly told to do so. So this is kind of a first time that researchers are seeing this happen on its own. Okay, it's one thing to do this in chess, but are experts concerned that AI might be prone to cheating at other tasks? So we don't know. And the researchers don't know why the AI is cheating so blatantly at chess. The way that AI models work is still kind of a mystery in a lot of ways. They'll make decisions based on factors that they can't really explain. And this is a growing area of concern for some AI researchers. So at least for now, maybe don't count on a fair chess game against the

most sophisticated AI model on the market. Okay. Your next story, hits close to home for us. It's about sound quality. Tell me about this. Yes, microphones are very important to the field we've chosen, Flora. And I think that anyone can tell you that the better a person sounds on the radio or on a podcast, the more enjoyable that listening experience is. And we've all spent enough time on Zoom calls with crappy audio over the last few years to just not want any more of that. But there's actually scientific evidence that says poor audio quality causes listeners to negatively judge speakers and what they're saying. And the opposite is true, too. That better sound quality on a technological level makes people think that you're more intelligent, credible, even more datable.

So these researchers tested this theory in a couple different contexts. In one test, research participants listened to a call that was set up like a job interview. In another call, it was a date. And in another one, there was somebody describing a car accident. And across the board, the study participants said that the people with the audio, that was worse, were less hireable, less datable, less credible. Okay, so forget the ringlight. It seems like we have to pay more attention to our mics.

Yeah, I mean, you don't have to go crazy. There are some pretty good microphones on the market these days that are probably going to be better than the built-in microphone on your computer. But, you know, also in-person conversations are nice. too. True enough. Okay, your last story is weird and delightful, my favorite combination. People scoped an octopus catching a ride on a very unexpected vehicle. Yes. So marine scientists in New Zealand see a lot of animals. And a couple of months ago, there was a Mako shark that caught people's eye. It was swimming. It had something orangey brown on top of its head. So at first, these scientists were

concerned. They were like, why is there this big mass on top of the shark? They thought that maybe it was a buoy or it was bitten or it was stuck in fishing gear. As these scientists look closer, they realized that the answer was weirder than you could have ever imagined. It was a Maori octopus that was literally riding on top of this shark. Is this a common occurrence? Like, what did the experts make of this? So this is the first time that at least these researchers in New Zealand are aware of this ever being seen. So these octopuses are a pretty weird passenger. They're pretty big. They can get to more than six feet across if you were to stretch it out. They weigh like 25 pounds. And they also live on the sea floor. So it's really not clear how this

octopus got on top of the shark, but it did somehow. And it's also not clear what happened to this pair after the researchers lost sight of it. So this may have. have just been like a serendipitous moment in time that was caught on camera. But the researchers were quoted in the New York Times by saying the shark seemed happy, the octopus seemed happy. It was a very calm scene. So maybe if you want to reach some Zen over the weekend, just imagine that you're an octopus, just hitching a chill ride on a shark. I will. Thank you. Thanks, Kathleen. You're welcome. Kathleen Davis, producer at Science Friday based in New York. away after the break, taking chemistry to the golf course.

These new coatings will allow the ball to have a better interface with the green and will slow it down at some of these very, very fast greens. Now that baseball season has started, golf grabs the spotlight with the Masters Tournament just a few days away. While golf is certainly a game of physics, you've got your ball speed, your height, and your angle. there's an old saying in golf, drive for show, but put for dough. That means that the putting green is the ultimate test where games are won or lost. And with 18 different greens, golfers are faced with 18 different ways the ball may travel, depending on whether the grass is slippery or soggy, it's cut tall or short. But now science is here to help.

This week at the meeting of the American Chemical Society, researchers announced they have developed a code for golf balls that would make them roll more consistently, more predictably across all the putting services, no matter how wet, how short the grass. Joining me now, to talk about it is Tom Kennedy. He's the owner of the company Chemical Innovative Solutions in Massachusetts. Welcome to Science Friday. Thanks, Ira. Nice to be here. Did I get that, all those different ways, all those different factors that could affect

a putt? Absolutely. And actually, there's a few more. The problem today is that agronomy's gotten so good with a lot of the different grasses available in the mowing machines that what happens is the greenskeepers cut the greens down very short. Typically, they're an eighth of an inch, so 0.125 inches. But like Oakmont in 2016, they went down to 0.09. And I know, very short. And that's okay, as long as the weather holds up. But when it gets very dry and very windy, those greens get very, very fast as the term in golf is. So judging the way the ball rolls, that's really part of the game on the putt there, right?

Absolutely. And the problem is when those greens get very, very fast, in my estimation, it becomes a game more of chance than a game of skill. And the player's skill is not on display as much as you like to see it. I think you may have remembered 1999 at Pinedhurst number two was the eighth hole. John Daly took an 11, and he took an 11 because he putted the ball up at the hole and a roll back to him twice. And the second time he was so frustrated, he hit a moving golf ball, which is a two-stroke penalty in golf. And as a result, took an 11 on the hole. So not a great display of a golfer's ability, more display of the strange economy and strange process you see on some of these very fast grains.

So how does your use of chemistry to make a coating, how does that help or determine the role of the ball? Well, that's what I looked at and I thought, you know, gee, this should be better than it is. And a lot of the players get upset when they see these very, very fast greens. So the solution is a hydrophilic coating for golf balls. Many times people like to see hydrophobic because they think, oh, we want to resist the water that's on golf courses or rain or, you know, what have you. But a hydrophilic coating is a water-loving coating, if you will, whereas a hydrophobic coating is a water-hating coating. So hydrophilic, it tends to sheet out more on the surface of the golf ball.

And as a result, it gives a truer role and also will allow for the golf ball to be a little bit slower on these very, very fast greens. And make the game again more a game of skill than of chance. So how much difference can this coating make on the success of a put, putting the ball in the hole. Is there a percentage? Does it work better by X number of putts? So my initial testing of our coding showed that we were getting a difference, 8.25 for retail ball, 8.25 feet and 7.58 feet for the new hydrophilic coating. Doesn't seem like a lot, but when there's a million dollar difference between first place and second place, that certainly does make a difference. I've heard some people say, why not just coated in Teflon so the things don't stick to it?

You have the opposite idea, right? Exactly. It's the opposite idea. And I think that's the counterintuitive part of it is there's a three-prong attack that I've used to try and make these golf balls very different on these very fast screens. The first is an interpenetrating polymer network. The second is an absorbent or adsorbid material like a molecular sieve. And the third is a super absorber polymer, like you see in diapers or other areas. You also see a lot of landscapers use it to hold water in yards. So what's going on in the physics of the ball as it's rolling with their hydrophilic coating on it? Let's get one to the weeds on this. Literally, right? Into the grass. Good one. Yeah. So what's happening is that you're getting this film on the

surface of the ball of the water. And as a result, it has more of a synergistic effect with the grass and the green as opposed to having the hydrophobic effect. So you're getting the ball to quote unquote stick to the green better. And that's through the use of this interpenetrating polymer network, the absorptive materials, and the super absorber polymers. So even if it's really dry, it is getting some water sticking to it, which helps the roll? Bingo. It slows the roll down. And so a lot of these courses, I'll quote Zach Johnson for the 2018 U.S. Open at Shinnecock. He said they've lost the course. It was the third day. It was very dry day, very windy, and the conditions were just extremely difficult for putting. Again, a game of chance

versus a game of skill. So these new coatings will allow the ball to have a better interface with the green and we'll slow it down on some of these very, very fast greens. A lot of these course designers build false fronts into the greens. So what that is, is it's part of the fairway that comes up to the green. And if you don't quite get it on the front of the green, the ball rolls back into the fairway, which is a nice thing for the designer. But if the greens are extremely fast, then you have the ball rolling off the green back into the fairway. And it's, again, not a great test of golf in my estimation. So how easy is this to put on a golf ball?

I mean, is it embedded in the coating or the shell on the ball? Or is it sitting as a layer? How does it work here? Well, that's a great question. And typically the golf balls of today have a two-part polyurethane as the coatings. And the reason for that is it's a very durable coating. So you're striking this golf ball at ungodly amount of pressure with the golf club, the grooves on the club cut into the surface.

And the polyurethane coatings are able to withstand that. The polyurethane coatings are typically a polyester polyole with an isosinate. Sorry for all the science. But that chemistry allows a very durable coating. If you're able to now modify that coating and do this interpenetrating polymer network with these additives in it, you're able to still maintain that durability. Are there other kinds of specialty performance coatings already out there? Again, good question.

It was in the 90s that Spalding came out with the ball called the Arrow. And that coating was very hydrophobic. And I remember getting calls from some of the consumers. They were very upset because golfers like to mark their balls with a Sharpie. And they said, I can't get any Sharpie to mark on this golf ball because of the coating. So antrographetical coating, if you will. And this coating goes the other way. I know that golf being sort of a duffer myself has a lot of rules about the equipment.

Is this a legal thing to do to the golf ball? Absolutely. And that's why I mentioned the other coating that was out there for the Spalding Arrow Golf Ball. This modification of the coating, the USDA said that was fine, the USDA and the RNA, both approved of it. That being said, I still need to talk to the ruling bodies of golf and make sure they're okay with this coating. But it has a very small effect on what's going on with the ball. The ball aerodynamics are still very similar. Actually, exactly the same.

The durability is exactly the same. And the ball still stays clean. So having this change to the coating allows this hydrophilic nature. And I don't see that that's a huge difference from what the current products are out there. Plus, this has been allowed in the past where other coatings, of different attributes, as I mentioned. Have you run your idea past any golf ballmakers? Well, that's what we're hoping to do.

We're presenting first here at the ACS meeting in San Diego, and we do have several patent-pending applications for this new science. So, you know, we're hoping to go to them and say, hey, here's something we think could be very helpful for both the average golfer and for the pros, and it's something that we'd like to work with you to develop further. I was interested to see that there are other applications that this coating could be used for. Tell us about that.

Well, and I believe you're talking about these solar cells. Yes, solar panels. Yeah, absolutely. That can be an area for improvement. A lot of people are looking at these hydrophobic coatings, and they're doing that because you see the water beat up like you would when you put like hot wax on a car hood, something like that. Right. And intuitively, that seems to be a. a good thing because it keeps it the surface clean. However, the problem with those coatings is that

they wear over time and dirt gets on the surface of the solar panels, which can reduce the amount of energy coming through by up to 7%. So we actually have a large array on our house. And I can see all the dirt on there during the summer. And I'm like, gee, I hope it rains soon. So it washes that off. but these hydrophilic coatings will act as a sheeting action, very similar to what you would see for getting very clean glasses in your dishwasher. So the sheeting action will allow the surface of the panels to be cleaned by rain, by dew in the morning, because the water is going to sheet out on the surface as opposed to beat up. Wow, wow. So how soon might we see a test use of your golf ball on TV or some other place? Well, I'm hoping for later in the season.

There's a lot of development that has to go on, both from a chemical standpoint and also from working with the golf ball companies, as you mentioned. So I'd love to be able to do that with them. And usually that takes about six months. So plus it has to be approved by the USDA and the RNA. So with all those logistics in place, I'm guessing around that time frame. So later on in the golf season is my hope. But it's, you know, the phrase I've always heard for invention is this is something the world needs. And I think this is something the world needs because, gosh, those greens are so fast.

And you see how frustrated the players get. I wish I were a good enough golfer that this would affect my game. Thank you, Tom. And good luck. Well, wait to hear what happens. So check back in with us, will you? I absolutely will, Iver. Thanks for checking with me.

And I appreciate the interview. Tom Kennedy, owner of the company, Chemical Innovative Solutions in Massachusetts. And that is about all we have time for. Lots of folks helped make the show happen, including Santiago Flores. Dee Petersman. Melissa Mayers. Emma Gomez. I'm Flora Lichtman.

Thanks for listening.